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Tuckahoe
06-15-2016, 06:02
I probably shouldn't let things like this bother me, and first world problems and all that, but to see folks use Shenandoah as a plural has become my equivalent of nails on a chalk board for me.

There is the --

Town of Shenandoah in Page County and the County of Shenandoah
The Shenandoah River, and the North Fork and the South Fork
Shenandoah Valley, and Shenandoah Mountian
And Shenandoah National Park

But there are no Shennies and no Shenandoahs. We do not use a plural -- it is just simply Shenandoah.

And I'll get off my soap box now and go back to the corner...

Deer Hunter
06-15-2016, 06:09
I'm with ya on this. Heard "the Shennies" just last week.

Alleghanian Orogeny
06-15-2016, 07:04
Right there with ya. I cringe each and every time I see "Shennies" in print. I'm not the grammar and spelling police. I just hate to see a place name which is so beautiful abbreviated in any way and for that abbreviation to work itself into popular use.

AO

garlic08
06-15-2016, 07:58
Same thing with "the Sierras" when referring to the Sierra Nevada range. It's a single region, not a plural. At least it's not diminutive, like "Shennies."

Move over on that soapbox.

la.lindsey
06-15-2016, 08:00
Can't the valley, mountain, river, park, and town make it plural?

English is a fluid language.

Some would argue the use of "ya" for "you" cheapens our beautiful grammar. Others would say the over use of sentence final ellipses in place of periods (or an exclamation point, etc) compromises our punctuation system. And yet you all seem to have no issue with those usages.
:)

/English major and part time troll


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TheCheek
06-15-2016, 08:12
I was thinking the same thing while reading it. "But you listed out just some of the many Shenandoahs." What about all of the businesses that also took the name?

PS Also part time troll.

Gambit McCrae
06-15-2016, 08:36
Unleash the Trolling!

Ok, So since we are all caught up on real world problems like if Larry is going to open a bar in D-Town, and no kids are getting snatched by alligators in Disney, and bars arnt getting shot up, lets talk about THE SHANNIES> I use terms like THE SHANNIES, I use an A instead of an E because I already know that The Shennies is not a freakin word, so why not spell it how it sounds. Because its fun. It is fun to say SHANNIES, the same way as when I hiked the Smokey Mountain National Park, I didn't want to say "Smokey Mountain National Park" every time I explained something, so I say it all formal the FIRST TIME, and from then on in the convo ya know what I call it?!!! the FREAKIN SHMOKIES, yes, with a SH, WHY? Because I like it, it is fun. I WOULD have whipped out my smart phone to look up the official nomenclature for the parks but I didn't wanna offend anyone!

la.lindsey
06-15-2016, 09:39
Gambit raises a good point: GSMNP is clearly only ONE great smokey mountain, yet we've accepted the plural "smokies." Isn't it time to accept The Shennies as well?

(Sorry, Gambit, not ok with Shannies, although I do see your point. My regional dialect makes no distinction between "pen" and "pin" so "Shennies" and "Shannies" is probably similar enough as well, and "Shennies" retains original spelling.)


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chknfngrs
06-15-2016, 09:42
silly stupid thread #543 for 5,000, Aleksh.

Gambit McCrae
06-15-2016, 09:44
Gambit raises a good point: GSMNP is clearly only ONE great smokey mountain, yet we've accepted the plural "smokies." Isn't it time to accept The Shennies as well?

(Sorry, Gambit, not ok with Shannies, although I do see your point. My regional dialect makes no distinction between "pen" and "pin" so "Shennies" and "Shannies" is probably similar enough as well, and "Shennies" retains original spelling.)


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How dare you use your iphone to communicate with others.

tdoczi
06-15-2016, 09:45
though technically you are correct, i have to say i cringe more when someone needs to point something like this out for the 10,000th time than i do when someone says it "wrong."

in a more abstract sense, names of places are simply what people call a thing. over time, what once was called one thing may become called something else. in 100 years maybe they will be known as the plural form you so vehemently dislike. maybe that will become their "correct" name. to that i ask you- so what?

la.lindsey
06-15-2016, 09:46
How dare you use your iphone to communicate with others.

I'm not in the woods though.

Now, if my coworkers complained about me ruining their work experience with the harsh glare of my phone screen in this gorgeous cube-farm office setting, then I guess I'd have to feel guilty.

But fortunately no one has yet complained.


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Gambit McCrae
06-15-2016, 09:59
Just Called the Shennies Park Service. They changed the name officially to "The Shennies", Signs will be up beginning of next week.

illabelle
06-15-2016, 11:26
Right there with ya. I cringe each and every time I see "Shennies" in print. I'm not the grammar and spelling police. I just hate to see a place name which is so beautiful abbreviated in any way and for that abbreviation to work itself into popular use.

AO

Shenandoah is just one of many beautiful Appalachian/Native American names. Others would be Dahlonegah, and some of those how-do-you-pronounce-them places in Maine like Mooselookmeguntic and Nesowadnehunk. Even if we don't speak the original languages or know the original meanings, I do agree that we lose something when we allow the original to be degraded or corrupted or misused, especially by those who don't care.

On the other hand, I just love how Gambit McCrae responded. As I read it, for him the word "Shennies" (or Shannies) is an affectionate nickname. This past weekend I hiked with a young girl named Eliana. We often call her Ellie. I told her I might start calling her Ellybean (kind of like jellybean). In no way is the use of the nickname a replacement of her true name. It's just a shortcut that indicates familiarity and affection.

la.lindsey
06-15-2016, 11:42
Those "shortcuts" are also known as "nicknames." In original Anglo-Saxon, this was "an ekename" or "an other name." But, of course, as I mentioned earlier, English is a fluid language, and we adopt words from other languages and change them, so "an ekename" became "a nickname." Shortening "Shenandoah" to "the Shennies" is a particular form of nicknaming known as the diminutive form, which is generally seen as affectionate.

You can hate how English changes things all you want. That's known as being a prescriptive grammarian, and in that case, you might be better off with Latin. Or you can appreciate how language is actually spoken and used and how it changes, and then you'd be a descriptive grammarian.

Either way, time and tide and the evolution of the English language wait for no man or woman or AT hiker.


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rocketsocks
06-15-2016, 11:43
...and not fur nuthin' it's Neel Gap, not neels gap.

Berserker
06-15-2016, 11:57
Well we are on this topic they sell stickers in the stores in SNP that say "Hiked It Liked It", and may sell these in other parks...don't know. I don't know what it is, but that "Hiked It Liked It" phrase...well let's just say I really dislike it. It sounds flippant and fairly douchey...just had to get my crotchety opinion in here on something SNP related since this is a soapbox thread.

tdoczi
06-15-2016, 12:05
You can hate how English changes things all you want. That's known as being a prescriptive grammarian, and in that case, you might be better off with Latin. Or you can appreciate how language is actually spoken and used and how it changes, and then you'd be a descriptive grammarian.

Either way, time and tide and the evolution of the English language wait for no man or woman or AT hiker.


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just when i thought i was the only one who "got it." i have this argument about the evolution of language with basically everyone who tries to "correct" something someone says. its rare anyone ever understands.

perhaps ironically, given this forum, it was one of bill bryson's other books that taught me this concept.

Xycon
06-15-2016, 12:16
On a similar note, it annoys me when people say appalachun trail rather than appalashan trail, but no need to get all up in arms about it lol

la.lindsey
06-15-2016, 12:26
On a similar note, it annoys me when people say appalachun trail rather than appalashan trail, but no need to get all up in arms about it lol

Interesting. I had a professor who did his research on dialects and folklore of the Appalachian region and he was an "appalachun" guy. Now, that's "appalahchia" not "appalaychia," which he did make sure we all knew. Are you sure you're not wrong? :)


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Sarcasm the elf
06-15-2016, 12:36
I get far more bent out of shape when people (usually on Facebook hiking pages) call it "The A.T. Trail" or try to discuss "Lymes" disease.




Oh well, I have lots of pet peeves.

I also have lots of pets.

Heck, most of the time my pets are the cause of my pet peeves. :rolleyes:

Xycon
06-15-2016, 12:46
Interesting. I had a professor who did his research on dialects and folklore of the Appalachian region and he was an "appalachun" guy. Now, that's "appalahchia" not "appalaychia," which he did make sure we all knew. Are you sure you're not wrong? :)


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I could very well be wrong, hah, I just think it personally rolls off the tongue better.

Sarcasm the elf
06-15-2016, 13:01
On a similar note, it annoys me when people say appalachun trail rather than appalashan trail, but no need to get all up in arms about it lol


Interesting. I had a professor who did his research on dialects and folklore of the Appalachian region and he was an "appalachun" guy. Now, that's "appalahchia" not "appalaychia," which he did make sure we all knew. Are you sure you're not wrong? :)


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The rough answer is that it's regional dialect. The Apple-at-chun trail runs from Georgia to about 100 miles north or south of the Mason-Dixon Line (the exact end point is a gray area) the Appa-lay-shun trail picks up from there and runs to Maine.

Gambit McCrae
06-15-2016, 13:26
I could very well be wrong, hah, I just think it personally rolls off the tongue better.

I see, so what is convenient for you, is how everyone else needs to pronounce it. :-?

BillyGr
06-15-2016, 14:32
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/119455-Shenandoahs-July-9-17

Even shows up in other posts at the same time :)

Of course, there is also that group from parts of the Capital Region of NY State that would go for calling it Shenendehowa (or just Shen park/river etc. as a nickname) ;)

Xycon
06-15-2016, 14:34
I see, so what is convenient for you, is how everyone else needs to pronounce it. :-?

Never said that. Just said it annoys me when its pronounced one way, I also said I don't make a stink about it.

Malto
06-15-2016, 19:40
Same thing with "the Sierras" when referring to the Sierra Nevada range. It's a single region, not a plural. At least it's not diminutive, like "Shennies."

Move over on that soapbox.

AMen to this

JumpMaster Blaster
06-16-2016, 01:37
Gambit raises a good point: GSMNP is clearly only ONE great smokey mountain, yet we've accepted the plural "smokies." Isn't it time to accept The Shennies as well?

(Sorry, Gambit, not ok with Shannies, although I do see your point. My regional dialect makes no distinction between "pen" and "pin" so "Shennies" and "Shannies" is probably similar enough as well, and "Shennies" retains original spelling.)


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Well, there is the Great Smoky Mountains Nat'l Park, so in essence more than one mountain in the area, whereas it's the Shenandoah Nat'l Park, not the Shenandoah Mountains Nat'l Park. No plural. The Smokies is a chain, a region, a sub-range of the Blue Ridge Mountains which is a subset of the Appalachian Mountains., whereas there's no such comparable term for the Virginia area.

"The geological definition of the Blue Ridge province extends westward to the Ridge and Valley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridge-and-valley_Appalachians) area, encompassing the Great Smoky Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smoky_Mountains), the Great Balsams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Balsams), the Roans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roan_Mountain_%28Roan_Highlands%29), the Blacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mountains_%28North_Carolina%29), the Brushy Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushy_Mountains_%28North_Carolina%29) (a "spur" of the Blue Ridge) and other mountain ranges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_range)."

Note there is no mention of "the Shenandoahs". Yes to Smokys/Smokies, no to Shennies.

Gambit McCrae
06-16-2016, 08:05
Guess I'm headed to the Roanies this weekend.

rafe
06-16-2016, 08:12
"Y'all" isn't a word either, but maybe it should be. English is fluid. Go read Chaucer, see if you can make out what he as saying.

Starchild
06-16-2016, 08:21
Here we have the 'gunk's' which sometimes is capitalized, other times not because it's from the end of the word Shawangunk (Ridge). Not to mention the Dacks/'dacks (Adirondacks) and the Cats (Catskills).

It's just the way to refer to the mountains, It's like how we get trail names, and if they don't get a cute name they feel bad and other mountains make fun of them.

chknfngrs
06-16-2016, 08:47
Yall is a ward

Sarcasm the elf
06-16-2016, 08:53
Ain't, Ain't a word.

rocketsocks
06-16-2016, 10:11
.........taint?

Skyline
06-16-2016, 10:30
though technically you are correct, i have to say i cringe more when someone needs to point something like this out for the 10,000th time than i do when someone says it "wrong."

in a more abstract sense, names of places are simply what people call a thing. over time, what once was called one thing may become called something else. in 100 years maybe they will be known as the plural form you so vehemently dislike. maybe that will become their "correct" name. to that i ask you- so what?


You mean like Neel Gap vs. Neels Gap?

Skyline
06-16-2016, 10:32
"Y'all" isn't a word either, but maybe it should be. English is fluid. Go read Chaucer, see if you can make out what he as saying.


Y'all is a word. Well, at least a proper contraction.

saltysack
06-16-2016, 11:30
"Y'all" isn't a word either, but maybe it should be. English is fluid. Go read Chaucer, see if you can make out what he as saying.

It's in the Urban Dictionary!! It must be real!!![emoji867][emoji12]


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tdoczi
06-16-2016, 12:23
You mean like Neel Gap vs. Neels Gap?

dont know enough about it, but if enough people start referring to springer mountain as "big mikey" for some reason, one day big mikey its name will be.

that these things sometimes occur as accidents doesnt make them less valid.

as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

Tuckahoe
06-16-2016, 12:31
as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

Oh, you mean the Blue Ridge Mountains?

Odd Man Out
06-16-2016, 12:36
Ever hike down to Sockdolager Falls in the Grand Canyon (note my shallow attempt to make this hiking related?). There is a good word that was widely used in the 19th century but has now become obscure.

tdoczi
06-16-2016, 12:36
Oh, you mean the Blue Ridge Mountains?

c'mon you and i both know that the "blue ridge mountains" refers to a much larger area than what is contained in Shenandoah national park and that that small subset of the blue ridge doesnt have a well known name. masanutten (sp?) right next door, ironically, does. in fact, thats probably what influences people to want to give the next ridge over a name. since that ridge is in shenandoah national park... well you fill in the blanks.

my point still stands, if people want to start calling them "furgelmucowassu mountains" then that will be their name. to stand there and whine about it is silly. the name of a mountain isnt some sort of irrefutable law of physics. nothing in language is.

rocketsocks
06-16-2016, 12:41
c'mon you and i both know that the "blue ridge mountains" refers to a much larger area than what is contained in Shenandoah national park and that that small subset of the blue ridge doesnt have a well known name. masanutten (sp?) right next door, ironically, does. in fact, thats probably what influences people to want to give the next ridge over a name. since that ridge is in shenandoah national park... well you fill in the blanks.

my point still stands, if people want to start calling them "furgelmucowassu mountains" then that will be their name. to stand there and whine about it is silly. the name of a mountain isnt some sort of irrefutable law of physics. nothing in language is.
You ever see two geologist go at it over a rock group, I have...it ain't not pretty.

Sarcasm the elf
06-16-2016, 12:42
dont know enough about it, but if enough people start referring to springer mountain as "big mikey" for some reason, one day big mikey its name will be.

that these things sometimes occur as accidents doesnt make them less valid.

as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

Much like how people have been incorrectly referring to planned hiker feeds as "trail magic" for so long that it is now arguably the correct term for them and real trail magic probably needs a new term (Pox from the Pox and Puss podcast suggested "trail kismet".)

tdoczi
06-16-2016, 12:47
Much like how people have been incorrectly referring to planned hiker feeds as "trail magic" for so long that it is now arguably the correct term for them and real trail magic probably needs a new term (Pox from the Pox and Puss podcast suggested "trail kismet".)

if everyone calls them trail magic then for purposes of effective communication trail magic they are. you cant be the only person who calls a nail a trapplefrap and expect to communicate effectively with anyone.

the OP knows exactly what someone is referring to when they say "shennies" and can offer no other specific alternate name. so the word clearly serves a purpose. i really dont get why things like this bug some people so much.

Sarcasm the elf
06-16-2016, 12:51
if everyone calls them trail magic then for purposes of effective communication trail magic they are. you cant be the only person who calls a nail a trapplefrap and expect to communicate effectively with anyone.

the OP knows exactly what someone is referring to when they say "shennies" and can offer no other specific alternate name. so the word clearly serves a purpose. i really dont get why things like this bug some people so much.

Probably for largely the same reason that it bugs you when they complain about it. :rolleyes:

Skyline
06-16-2016, 13:11
... as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

There are a lot of named mountains in SNP. Just in the North District alone: Compton Peak, North Marshall, South Marshall, Hogback, Pass Mt., and so on. Generically I suppose we refer to the whole enchilada as the Blue Ridge Mountain(s).

But there isn't a place on any map I've seen of SNP where anything is named the Shenandoahs or heaven forbid, The Shennies. The latter is a figment of imagination by a subset of thru-hikers.

There is actually a mountain called Shenandoah Mountain in GWNF near the VA/WV border. A beautiful place, very steep. Here are a few words about it from Wikipedia: "Shenandoah Mountain is a mountain ridge approximately 73 miles long in Virginia and West Virginia. The steep, narrow, sandstone-capped ridge extends from northern Bath County, Virginia to southern Hardy County, West Virginia."

tdoczi
06-16-2016, 15:01
But there isn't a place on any map I've seen of SNP where anything is named the Shenandoahs or heaven forbid, The Shennies. The latter is a figment of imagination by a subset of thru-hikers.



or stated differently, where there is no formal name given to something that seemingly (to a certain number of people) needs one, one has been created. if it continues to grow in usage, one day the words "the shennies" might just be printed on a map.

or we can just stop using all names for specific regions and just refer to the appalachian mountains. seeing the reasons why we cant effectively do that should illuminate why it is people would seek to name a specific subset of mountains something.

JumpMaster Blaster
06-16-2016, 15:03
dont know enough about it, but if enough people start referring to springer mountain as "big mikey" for some reason, one day big mikey its name will be.

that these things sometimes occur as accidents doesnt make them less valid.

as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

^ This. We should do this. Let's call it "Big Mikey".

Starchild
06-16-2016, 15:18
^ This. We should do this. Let's call it "Big Mikey".
Lil' Mikey would be more like it with Katahdin being Big Mikey.

Alleghanian Orogeny
06-16-2016, 16:41
c'mon you and i both know that the "blue ridge mountains" refers to a much larger area than what is contained in Shenandoah national park and that that small subset of the blue ridge doesnt have a well known name. masanutten (sp?) right next door, ironically, does. in fact, thats probably what influences people to want to give the next ridge over a name. since that ridge is in shenandoah national park... well you fill in the blanks.

my point still stands, if people want to start calling them "furgelmucowassu mountains" then that will be their name. to stand there and whine about it is silly. the name of a mountain isnt some sort of irrefutable law of physics. nothing in language is.

Not sure where you're coming from with this statement. The fact is that the broad mountain ridge on which SNP lies is the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains do in fact extend from southern PA all the way into Alabama, but the single ridge on which SNP lies is the Blue Ridge Mountains in north-central Virginia and is not a subset of any sort--it's just the Blue Ridge Mountains. Massanutten Mountain is not within SNP nor is within the Blue Ridge Mountains. Massanutten Mountain is within the Shenandoah Valley and is outside of SNP. Shenandoah Mountain is at the far side of the Shenandoah Valley from SNP and Massanutten and it, too, is within the Shenandoah Valley. The crest of Shenandoah Mountain in fact marks the western edge of the Shenandoah Valley.

So SNP is in the Blue Ridge Mountains, there are no "Shenandoah Mountains", and there are no "Shennies". The principal reason to refer to any geographic area by its proper place name is to make communication more effective by calling them what they are. If not for there being some value in consistency of things like place names, why even bother with them?

And one poster above is certainly right about what happens when geologists get going on place names. Long story short--the Blue Ridge physiographic province does not tie directly to the Blue Ridge geologic province, and in places in both Virginia and NC, the boundaries are tens of miles from one another. We rock geeks are mighty particular, and properly so, as to what to call places and the rock units therein.

AO

tdoczi
06-16-2016, 17:41
So SNP is in the Blue Ridge Mountains, there are no "Shenandoah Mountains", and there are no "Shennies". The principal reason to refer to any geographic area by its proper place name is to make communication more effective by calling them what they are. If not for there being some value in consistency of things like place names, why even bother with them?



so if someone deems it necessary, for ease of communication, to refer to all the mountains occupying the ridge line from rockfish gap to chester gap as one single entity (just as the presis, smokies and many many others are) what name do you suggest they use?

as far as i know, there is no name for this set of mountains. in the absence of such a name, people are creating one. thats how things get named, not by some official mountain naming conference thats holds a vote on it and declares it a law or something.

what we are witnessing with the rise of the use of the word "shennies" is people are creating a word to use to refer to all of the mountains contained within shenandoah national park. theres NOTHING wrong with them doing so. get over it.

i imagine once upon a time, there was no "presidential range." there was simply mount washington, mount jefferson, mount adams, etc. eventually, for ease of communication, people started calling them collectively "the presidential range." for obvious reasons. this is normal. what is abnormal and strange is the idea that someone may have been there stamping their feet telling everyone no you cant call them that, that isnt their name. its ridiculous.

if people want to call them "the shennies" they're more than allowed to. and the fact that you know what they are referring to enough to tell everyone that isnt their real name is only proof of how useful and necessary the word really is.

Lone Wolf
06-16-2016, 18:01
neel not neels. smoky mtns. not the smokies

Alleghanian Orogeny
06-16-2016, 18:35
so if someone deems it necessary, for ease of communication, to refer to all the mountains occupying the ridge line from rockfish gap to chester gap as one single entity (just as the presis, smokies and many many others are) what name do you suggest they use?

as far as i know, there is no name for this set of mountains. in the absence of such a name, people are creating one. thats how things get named, not by some official mountain naming conference thats holds a vote on it and declares it a law or something.

what we are witnessing with the rise of the use of the word "shennies" is people are creating a word to use to refer to all of the mountains contained within shenandoah national park. theres NOTHING wrong with them doing so. get over it.

i imagine once upon a time, there was no "presidential range." there was simply mount washington, mount jefferson, mount adams, etc. eventually, for ease of communication, people started calling them collectively "the presidential range." for obvious reasons. this is normal. what is abnormal and strange is the idea that someone may have been there stamping their feet telling everyone no you cant call them that, that isnt their name. its ridiculous.

if people want to call them "the shennies" they're more than allowed to. and the fact that you know what they are referring to enough to tell everyone that isnt their real name is only proof of how useful and necessary the word really is.

It's easy, and it's certainly nothing to get one's shorts wadded up over. "As far as you know" only means you don't know the correct name of these mountains. It does not mean that there is no name for this particular segment of mountains which SNP lies within. there is such a name. The mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap are the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains physiographic province in that exact area is a single, broad ridge and is a direct extension of the Blue Ridge Mountains to the south of Rockfish Gap and north of Chester Gap. Unlike the Black Mountains near Asheville, NC, standing out as a long and dramatically tall ridge within the 40 to 50 mile width of the Blue Ridge Mountains in southwestern NC, there is no separate body of mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. The ridge is simply the Blue Ridge Mountains.

I'm not losing any sleep if someone wants to call any mountains whatever they wish to, so there's nothing to "get over". I do think that doing so is indicative of a degree of being ill-informed, where those which are well-informed take care to 1) learn what the place names are, and 2) use them correctly.

After all, why don't we just call Georgia "Virginia". Virginia is a much prettier word than Georgia. The reason well-informed people don't do so is that they realize Georgia is Georgia and Virginia is Virginia. Same with the mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. Hell's Belles, you can call them the Alps and it won't bother me a bit. I won't care what it is you're driving at to since to call them the Alps indicates you don't know what you're talking about, but if it makes you feel good, have at it.

AO

tdoczi
06-16-2016, 18:45
It's easy, and it's certainly nothing to get one's shorts wadded up over. "As far as you know" only means you don't know the correct name of these mountains. It does not mean that there is no name for this particular segment of mountains which SNP lies within. there is such a name. The mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap are the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains physiographic province in that exact area is a single, broad ridge and is a direct extension of the Blue Ridge Mountains to the south of Rockfish Gap and north of Chester Gap. Unlike the Black Mountains near Asheville, NC, standing out as a long and dramatically tall ridge within the 40 to 50 mile width of the Blue Ridge Mountains in southwestern NC, there is no separate body of mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. The ridge is simply the Blue Ridge Mountains.

I'm not losing any sleep if someone wants to call any mountains whatever they wish to, so there's nothing to "get over". I do think that doing so is indicative of a degree of being ill-informed, where those which are well-informed take care to 1) learn what the place names are, and 2) use them correctly.

After all, why don't we just call Georgia "Virginia". Virginia is a much prettier word than Georgia. The reason well-informed people don't do so is that they realize Georgia is Georgia and Virginia is Virginia. Same with the mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. Hell's Belles, you can call them the Alps and it won't bother me a bit. I won't care what it is you're driving at to since to call them the Alps indicates you don't know what you're talking about, but if it makes you feel good, have at it.

AO


except the term "the blue ridge mountains" refers to more than just the mountains between chester gap and rockfish gap. you know, i know it, most people how have ever heard the term "blue ridge mountains" know it.

is anyone who calls the presidential range the presidential range instead of "the white mountains" also ignorant?

i think youre making too much geological out of this. i get your geological slant to this argument, really. but you do realize the names of most mountains, sets of mountains, mountain ranges, etc have little to do with geology, right?

tdoczi
06-16-2016, 19:46
It's easy, and it's certainly nothing to get one's shorts wadded up over. "As far as you know" only means you don't know the correct name of these mountains. It does not mean that there is no name for this particular segment of mountains which SNP lies within. there is such a name. The mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap are the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains physiographic province in that exact area is a single, broad ridge and is a direct extension of the Blue Ridge Mountains to the south of Rockfish Gap and north of Chester Gap. Unlike the Black Mountains near Asheville, NC, standing out as a long and dramatically tall ridge within the 40 to 50 mile width of the Blue Ridge Mountains in southwestern NC, there is no separate body of mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. The ridge is simply the Blue Ridge Mountains.

I'm not losing any sleep if someone wants to call any mountains whatever they wish to, so there's nothing to "get over". I do think that doing so is indicative of a degree of being ill-informed, where those which are well-informed take care to 1) learn what the place names are, and 2) use them correctly.

After all, why don't we just call Georgia "Virginia". Virginia is a much prettier word than Georgia. The reason well-informed people don't do so is that they realize Georgia is Georgia and Virginia is Virginia. Same with the mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. Hell's Belles, you can call them the Alps and it won't bother me a bit. I won't care what it is you're driving at to since to call them the Alps indicates you don't know what you're talking about, but if it makes you feel good, have at it.

AO

or perhaps a better comparison than the presidential range occurs right here in NJ. we have here what we call the kittatinny ridge, or sometimes kittatinny mountains, or sometimes just kittatinny mountain. it runs from the delware water gap to high point. neither of these "boundaries" is in anyway geological. it is part of a larger formation that is called blue mountain in PA and the shwangunk ridge (or shwangunk mtns, or just the gunks) in NY state. geologically it is all the same damn thing. further, in PA, a mountain that is in fact geologically separate is called.... wait for it... kittatinny mountain.

theres no reason why a small segment of what is the blue ridge mountains cant be called "the shennies" even if there is no geological justification for doing so. its just too damn cumbersome to most normal people to say "the portion of the blue ridge mountains contained within the boundaries of shenandoah national park" or "the blue ridge mountains of north-central virginia" or some other such non sense. so theyve made up a name for it that quick. easy to say and recognize.

thats how language works.

Furlough
06-17-2016, 07:50
[QUOTE=la.lindsey;2075033]Those "shortcuts" are also known as "nicknames." Shortening "Shenandoah" to "the Shennies" is a particular form of nicknaming known as the diminutive form, which is generally seen as affectionate.

Disclaimer - I am not a descriptive grammarian, nor a language arts or English major, so please pardon my following ill informed curiosity question to you la.lindsey. Is there some accepted form of an English language concept that recognizes or accepts the combining or shortening of names or phrases? As in this topic, the Shenandoah Mountains is the name of this particular mountain chain, and the same is true for the Rocky Mountains. Both are commonly referred to as the Shenandoahs and the Rockies in conversation. So is there some idiom in the twisting, turning strange path that the study of English, grammar, language arts follows that codifies this shortening effect? I guess that is the same question asked twice.

Furlough

Hikingjim
06-17-2016, 10:14
The annoyance of "shenandoahs" probably pales in comparison to some of the geographically baffling comments I get on the trail from people when I tell them I'm from Canada, or from "near toronto", etc.

mikec
06-17-2016, 11:10
As a fellow Virginian I agree that 'The Shenandoahs' is like fingernails on a chalk board.

tdoczi
06-17-2016, 11:20
As a fellow Virginian I agree that 'The Shenandoahs' is like fingernails on a chalk board.

how would you prefer that people refer to the collection of mountains contained within shenandoah national park (and ONLY those mountains, ie "blue ridge mountains" doesnt cut it) when speaking about them then?

Alleghanian Orogeny
06-17-2016, 11:58
how would you prefer that people refer to the collection of mountains contained within shenandoah national park (and ONLY those mountains, ie "blue ridge mountains" doesnt cut it) when speaking about them then?

.............I prefer to refer to them in the same way that my Madison County neighbors, everybody else living on either the Piedmont or Valley side, the National Park Service, the National Forest Service, the Department of Defense (several continuation of government underground facilities in the area, including Camp David in the MD Blue Ridge), the Commonwealth of Virginia, the many counties within and adjacent to them, hikers, cyclists, rock climbers, first responders, and travelers of all sorts: They're the Blue Ridge Mountains. Each individual is free to call them what they wish to, but to the people who live, work, and govern there, Blue Ridge Mountains definitely "cuts it". It's the only name any of the folks in the region have ever known, and at least one former resident is mystified as to why it's seen as unacceptable by some.

AO

tdoczi
06-17-2016, 12:15
and at least one former resident is mystified as to why it's seen as unacceptable by some.

AO


it doesnt cut it because it refers a much larger area and some people feel the need to refer to a smaller, more specific area contained within that larger area. why is this such a hard concept to swallow?

tdoczi
06-17-2016, 12:18
it doesnt cut it because it refers a much larger area and some people feel the need to refer to a smaller, more specific area contained within that larger area. why is this such a hard concept to swallow?

further, no one needs to refer to them that way, or in anyway at all if you dont want to. but to post online about how people who do refer them that way are being ignorant is... well, honestly, ignorant.

Alleghanian Orogeny
06-20-2016, 12:28
There is a process for naming, or, in this case, renaming, topographic features. Being the compilers and publishers of official topographic maps, the USGS administers, vets, and approves (or disapproves) the naming of mountains, hills, valleys, streams, etc. There is paperwork involved, public comments periods, naming standards, etc, but there are dedicated public servants which come to work each day to do exactly that.

Why not go for it? If successful, your choice of names will be foisted upon tens of thousands of people who live and work either on the Blue Ridge Mountains or in the shadow of them and have never called them anything other than the Blue Ridge Mountains. As an added bonus, you may call them ignorant if they choose to refer to them by some name other than the one you selected.

AO

la.lindsey
06-20-2016, 12:45
Disclaimer - I am not a descriptive grammarian, nor a language arts or English major, so please pardon my following ill informed curiosity question to you la.lindsey. Is there some accepted form of an English language concept that recognizes or accepts the combining or shortening of names or phrases? As in this topic, the Shenandoah Mountains is the name of this particular mountain chain, and the same is true for the Rocky Mountains. Both are commonly referred to as the Shenandoahs and the Rockies in conversation. So is there some idiom in the twisting, turning strange path that the study of English, grammar, language arts follows that codifies this shortening effect? I guess that is the same question asked twice.

Furlough
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but I'll try to answer anyways.

The current diminutive in English is the "ie" sound (i.e. "Mike" to "Mikey"). It used to be "kin ("apron" and "napkin"). As for a formal process to get it accepted, no. We have no académie française to approve changes to the language. Our changes to the language are majority rules. If the common people want to call it the Shennies (or the Shannies), then eventually it will become that. Consider that not every disposable paper handkerchief is a Kleenex, but we sure do call them that, and what do you think is recognized now? Majority rules.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tdoczi
06-20-2016, 12:46
There is a process for naming, or, in this case, renaming, topographic features. Being the compilers and publishers of official topographic maps, the USGS administers, vets, and approves (or disapproves) the naming of mountains, hills, valleys, streams, etc. There is paperwork involved, public comments periods, naming standards, etc, but there are dedicated public servants which come to work each day to do exactly that.

Why not go for it? If successful, your choice of names will be foisted upon tens of thousands of people who live and work either on the Blue Ridge Mountains or in the shadow of them and have never called them anything other than the Blue Ridge Mountains. As an added bonus, you may call them ignorant if they choose to refer to them by some name other than the one you selected.

AO

a) i dont care enough
b) i recognize that what people call things in everyday practice and conversation is not something any government committee really decides
c) i have not and would not call anyone who calls them the blue ridge mountains ignorant. that is their proper name. hawksbill mountain, for instamce, is both in "the shennies" and in the blue ridge mountains, just as mount washington is in both the white mountains and "the presis."

are people who call them "the presis" annoying and ignorant and not using the correct name? have you ever seen "the presis"? printed on a map?

Another Kevin
06-20-2016, 16:55
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"

"Hiked it, liked it"
"Big Mikey likes it!"

Things are called what people call them.

If you call me 'Kevin', I'll likely answer. If you call me 'Kenny,' I might answer, because a lot of people make that mistake (and besides, I got used to being called by my family name by prep school teachers). If you call me 'Mikey', I'll likely not answer, because nobody else calls me that. And if you call me 'hey idiot!' I'll say, "d'oh?" and not even mean it sardonically, I'm just that bad at thinking on my feet.

If you call the mountains along a certain ridge of Virginia the "Grey Misty Mountains," nobody will have a clue what you're talking about. If you call it "the part of the Blue Ridge that's in Shenandoah National Park," well, that will communicate, but be rather wordy. And if you say, "the Shennies," most of the people here will understand you, but the Virginians will think that it's rude.

I seldom say, "the Gunks" because I grew up hearing the name of that ridge pronounced "SHON-gum" (That's how the locals at least used to pronounce, "Shawangunk".) I'll speak of the Cats, or the 'Dacks, or the Prezzies only in hiking and climbing circles, otherwise I'll call them by their proper names. And I don't use "Catskills" to describe anything south of Wawarsing or north of Huntersfield Mountain - the Shawangunk Ridge and the Helderbergs are NOT the Catskills. The Downstaters call everything from the New Jersey line to the Mohawk Valley the "Catskills" but I don't have to follow them. I don't get huffy, I just wind up saying, "huh? Oh, I didn't think Middleburgh was in the Catskills - it's more the Schoharie Valley, isn't it?"

I'll call Leavit Peak in the Catskills by that name, because it needs a name. "The southwest summit of Hunter Mountain" doesn't quite do, when it's on a peak-bagging list and people need to refer to it. The government doesn't agree, so Leavitt Peak remains unnamed on the government maps.

At one time, there was a serious effort to rename Slide Mountain in the Catskills "Mount Lincoln," because some people felt that the highest point of land between Vermont and West Virginia deserved a more noble name. John Burroughs himself spoke against the move, saying that there was no better name to call something than what the locals called it, and "Slide Mountain" it remains. It appears that the people who lived in the area before the Europeans came didn't see much point to naming mountains that they never went to. (The legends that said that the mountains were sacred and the abode of the gods were more like, "Nobody goes there, you'd have to be one of the gods to get up there safely!")

I'd like to see Mount Marcy get back its supposed ancient name of Tahawus, preferring to pay tribute to the people who once owned it than to a relatively obscure nineteenth-century politician (although recognizing that Marcy did fund the Adirondack Survey). I'd even more prefer the name, Tewawe’éstha, except that I have trouble pronouncing it. "Tahawus" is no worse a mispronunciation of the name in the language of Kanien'kehá:ka than the way I butcher it. But mostly, I don't call it anything. It might answer.

Tuckahoe, I'd challenge you: If hikers find it necessary to have a name to refer to the portion of the Blue Ridge that the Appalachian Trail traverses, what name would you suggest they give it? The name they use, however disrespectful, is at least recognizable.

alnitak
06-21-2016, 09:42
Given, "Smokies", Rockies", etc. wouldn't the Blue Ridge Mountains be called the "Blues"? I find it interesting that they have only been referred to in full name in all the posts.

tdoczi
06-21-2016, 11:14
Given, "Smokies", Rockies", etc. wouldn't the Blue Ridge Mountains be called the "Blues"? I find it interesting that they have only been referred to in full name in all the posts.

i dont know if theyre ever referred to that way or not, but the issue to me is more about referring to a specific small area within a much larger one. there are places that are within the blue ridge mountains that also have another name. there are places within most mountain ranges that are like that. i keep coming back to the "presis" being within the white mountains, but there are countless others. heck, the smokies are in the blue ridge physiographic province, does anyone go around yelling about how people shouldt call them the smoky mountains and should just call them the blue ridge mountains? its a laughable position.

the objection to the "shennies" is something i truly do not get. its essentially a short way of saying "the mountains in shenandoah national park" the argument that these should just be referred to as "the blue ridge mountains" or even "the blues" is so incredibly full of holes that i dont know how anyone can seriously put it forward.

Alleghanian Orogeny
06-21-2016, 13:45
For an individual who "doesn't care enough", your angst is so intense we can practically see spittle flying from your keyboard. You spare no effort in belittling and insulting those who don't agree with you. All of this because some prefer to pay respect to the people who live and work in Virginia's Blue Ridge Mountains by referring to them as they do instead of using a recently-coined internet-derived nickname? WTH?

I do find it a bit sad and a bit confusing (but not annoying) that some choose to refer to a place by other than its long-accepted name, but I haven't lost a minute's sleep over it.

Your observation that the Smoky Mountains are within the Blue Ridge physiographic province and mine that the Black Mountains are also within it are each correct. The difference between the Smoky Mountains and the Black Mountains and the Blue Ridge Mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap, in my own opinion, is that the Smoky Mountains and the Black Mountains are separate, distinct masses of ridges within a Blue Ridge physiographic province which is, in southwestern NC, tens of miles in width. By contrast, the Blue Ridge between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap is a single, broad massif with no major topographic separation from the Blue Ridge Mountains to the north or to the south. As a result, I suspect, they've been called the Blue Ridge Mountains since long before internet debates and anonymous name-calling ever became the prevalent manner of communication employed by some individuals.

Call 'em whatever you want to, for whatever reason. Just try not to be surprised when lots and lots of people ignore you. I'm sure as heck not going to waste another minute of my life reading your rants.

AO

Gambit McCrae
06-21-2016, 13:50
Has it forever and always been called Shenandoah National Park? NO, it was established in 1935. So were people so upset and distraught in 1935 when SNP replaced some sort of name previously used? NOPE

Thread is now an annoyance and put on ignore list

tdoczi
06-21-2016, 18:37
All of this because some prefer to pay respect to the people who live and work in Virginia's Blue Ridge Mountains by referring to them as they do instead of using a recently-coined internet-derived nickname? WTH?


"paying respect" implies there are people who care very deeply about what they are called, even if you arent one of them. all of those people need to get over it. things change, new places are created (shenandoah NP, in the grand scheme of things, is new) places get new names, language evolves. none of that is "disrespect" and anyone who thinks it is has some serious issues.