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View Full Version : Don't use denatured, iso-, HEET, etc!



Dainon
01-05-2006, 13:54
This isn't a troll post -- I just worded the subject heading to attract attention to something that seems important.

I use and alcohol stove and have since I first read about them on Whiteblaze. I like them because they're idiot proof -- no moving parts, nothing really to break, totally reliable -- and because they're really small. I made a Pepsi stove, pot stand, and windscreen and I like carrying something that I didn't have to have made for me.

That said, I've always been seriously paranoid about denatured alcohol, HEET, etc. I never use that stuff because of the health hazards/dangers. I'll just cut/paste a couple, but if you don't believe me, look it up in the library or on the net.

By in large, the stuff contains chemicals that can cause serious injury. You're not supposed to get it on your skin because it soaks through quickly, so to speak, and enters the blood stream. You're not supposed to inhale the fumes. And obviously you're not supposed to get it in your mouth.

From a website at Holy Cross University regarding denatured alcohol:
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES
Route Of Entry - Skin: YES
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES
Health Haz Acute And Chronic: ACUTE: MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN. CAUSES SKIN, EYE, AND UPPER RESPIRATO TRACT IRRITATION. CAN CAUSE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSION AND BLINDNESS. CHRONIC: LIVER AND KIDNEY DAMAGE.
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO
Explanation Carcinogenicity: NONE OF THE COMPOUNDS IN THIS PRODUCT IS LISTED BY IARC, NTP, OR OSHA AS A CARCINOGEN.
Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: IRRITATION, DROWSINESS, CNS DEPRESSION, NAUSEA, VOMITING.
Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: LIVER AND KIDNEY.
Emergency/First Aid Proc: INHALATION:REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. RESUSCITATE IF NOT BREATHING. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION. EYES:IMMEDIATELY FLUSH WITH PLENTY OF WATER FOR 15 MINUTES. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION. SKIN:REMOVE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING FLUSH WITH WATER. IF IRRITATION PERSISTS, GET MEDICAL ADVICE. INGESTION:DO NO INDUCE VOMITING UNLESS INSTRUCTED TO DO SO. GIVE NOTHING BY MOUTH IF UNCONSCIOUS. GET IMMEDIATE MEDICAL ATTENTION.

And I'm supposed to cook with this? What about soot on the pan that might find away into the pot and then into my system? How can I keep this stuff away, off, and out of me while shivering, pouring, cooking, carrying, cleaning?

To get to my main point, I would encourage fellow alcohol stove users to seriously consider pure grain alcohol in lieu of denatured, iso-, HEET, etc. Most often sold in liquor stores under brand names such as "Golden Grain," it's 195 proof drinking alcohol.

I've heard some talk about its high cost. In my city, Lexington, KY, it sells for $12 a quart. I don't know the cost in other states, and frankly I'd happily pay double or triple the cost. There are 32 ounces in a quart. I use about 1/2 ounce for breakfast and 1/2 ounce for dinner, so about an ounce a day. That means that I can cook for a bout $12 a month. I haven't done a thru yet and maybe I'll never be lucky enough to have the chance, but it seems that it takes about 5 mths. to do it. So for the entire thru, my stove fuel costs would be about $60. Happily I'm wealthy enough to afford that cost, especially since I was stupid enough to pay $7 for a titanium spoon. I don't mind at all paying the extra money for grain alcohol since I don't have to worry about poisoning myself.

I don't know if it's readily available in towns while resupplying, but when I've done long section hikes, I just mail it to myself. The alcohol dispenser bottles from Brasslite are great -- 4, 8, and 16oz sizes.

I know there will be jokes about drinking it, and that's fine. But even though I don't drink booze, I guess some enterprising soul who does drink could also make the argument that since grain alcohol has a dual use, then there's really no need to carry a flask of whiskey, etc, so there is a weight savings, also.

In conclusion, the extra cost of using grain alcohol buys not only great fuel, but also health safety.

That's my .02 worth.

jlb2012
01-05-2006, 14:27
wrt PGA - yes it is possible to mail it _but_ there are special considerations that apply to mailing inflammable substances and you need to contact the post office or UPS or whoever to find out what are the restrictions and regulations.

with respect to finding it along the trail - _much_ more difficult to find than denatured or HEET

if your main concern is toxicity then I would suggest using isopro 90% available at many drugstores - still not as available as denatured or HEET but no worries about skin absorbtion - also useful for foot rubs - of course this will mean that you will have some soot on your pot but that can be managed - it also has more BTUs per ounce than the other alcohols

myself I'll continue using denatured or HEET - whichever I find first

Footslogger
01-05-2006, 14:36
myself I'll continue using denatured or HEET - whichever I find first
=====================================
Right there with you. I've found that if well ventillated, the alcohol fuels don't give off an excessive odor.

'Slogger

Dances with Mice
01-05-2006, 16:00
Using drinkable ethanol doesn't spread your safety margin much, does it? http://www.nafaa.org/ethanol.pdf That junk sounds pretty bad too and it's 30% water! The alternatives? Check out Coleman fuel's MSD - that's really scary stuff and kerosene's not much friendlier. Don't read propane's, just don't even go there. All fuels are bad! It must be time to PANIC! Or not.

The target audience of Material Safety Data (MSD) are workers in the chemical industry who may come into contact with a LOT of some substance over a long period of time, or emergency responders who need to know immediately what the hell's burning, about to burn, is fuming or leaking, or has been drunk or inhaled accidentally.

A drop or two on your fingers, a whiff of fumes now and then, no worries. Speaking only for myself, of course. If it's a cause of worry or concern for you, then eliminate it. 'Just one less thing,' as Gump would say.

MisterSweetie
01-05-2006, 16:08
Those warnings are your basic MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet). Almost anything can sound bad if you show the msds on it... heck even water:

Inhalation
Acute over exposure: Inhalation can result in asphyxiation and is often fatal.
Chronic overexposure: Chronic inhalation overexposure not encountered.
Skin Contact
Acute overexposure: Prolonged but constant contact with liquid may cause a mild dermatitis.
Chronic overexposure: Mild to severe dermatitis.
Ingestion
Acute overexposure: Excessive ingestion of liquid form can cause gastric distress and mild diarrhea.
Emergency and First Aid Procedures
Inhalation: Remove to fresh air; Provide artificial respiration; Provide oxygen.

Granted, not as drastic, but really, the warnings, while legitimate, should be taken with a dose of common sense.

RockyTrail
01-05-2006, 16:21
YOU'LL PUT YOUR EYE OUT! :D

Seriously, though, I've always been told they put a small amount of benzene in denatured alcohol to keep people from drinking it.
Not 100% sure about that, but I try to avoid taking a bath in it.

FWIW, it's been sold as "Marine Stove Fuel" for decades without any publicized danger from toxicity (well, at least not around here!)

Dances with Mice
01-05-2006, 16:30
I let my kids play in stuff with the following MSD entries:

Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Acute pneumoconiosis from overwhelming exposure ... has occurred. Coughing and irritation of throat are early symptoms.

Eye Contact:
May cause irritation, redness and pain.

Chronic Exposure:
Inhalation ... is classified as a human carcinogen. Chronic exposure can cause ... a form of lung scarring that can cause shortness of breath, reduced lung function, and in severe cases, death.

Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Inhalation may increase the progression of tuberculosis; susceptibility is apparently not increased. Persons with impaired respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of this substance. Smoking can increase the risk of lung injury.

Horrible stuff, that sand. http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s0722.htm

MisterSweetie
01-05-2006, 17:26
Seriously, though, I've always been told they put a small amount of benzene in denatured alcohol to keep people from drinking it.

Methanol, not benzene.

Blue Jay
01-05-2006, 20:26
Aw, just use gasoline, that chemical is real safe. Seriously, you forgot the most common health problem with alcohol, and it's not drinking it. Since the flame is colorless, I've often come across people without eyebrows.:banana

Dances with Mice
01-05-2006, 21:14
Aw, just use gasoline, that chemical is real safe. Seriously, you forgot the most common health problem with alcohol, and it's not drinking it. Since the flame is colorless, I've often come across people without eyebrows.:bananaLow blow there, BeeJay. You didn't have to bring that up.

Oh, wait....have we ever met?

smokymtnsteve
01-05-2006, 21:38
don't drink the water,,,don't breathe the air!

Uncle Silly
01-06-2006, 16:52
I've never had a soot problem from denatured (isopropyl, on the other hand...). Never tried ethanol either, but I'd expect it to burn dirtier (sootier) than denatured. As others have pointed out, those materials safety data sheets are for folks that come into heavy contact with those chemicals on a daily basis. I don't think cooking with it in a pepsi stove counts.

jamesraykenney
01-14-2006, 21:46
Those warnings are your basic MSDS ([size=-1]Material Safety Data Sheet). Almost anything can sound bad if you show the msds on it... heck even water:
[/i]

Granted, not as drastic, but really, the warnings, while legitimate, should be taken with a dose of common sense.

Have you read the Dihydrogen Monoxide sites???

http://www.dhmo.org/
http://www.ogauge.co.uk/DHMO.html
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=608745
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide
http://www.dhmo.tk/

:jump :jump :jump :jump

Rainman
01-14-2006, 22:09
Denatured alcohol is simply adulterated ethanol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol. You sure wouldn't want to drink it, but then, that is precisely the reason for which it is adulterated. The minimal amount of methanol added (about 10%) makes it non-potable, but not that much more dangerous than pure ethanol. It is what I use. I have had no problems.

weary
01-14-2006, 22:13
This isn't a troll post -- I just worded the subject heading to attract attention to something that seems important.

I use and alcohol stove and have since I first read about them on Whiteblaze. I like them because they're idiot proof -- no moving parts, nothing really to break, totally reliable -- and because they're really small. I made a Pepsi stove, pot stand, and windscreen and I like carrying something that I didn't have to have made for me.

That said, I've always been seriously paranoid about denatured alcohol, HEET, etc. I never use that stuff because of the health hazards/dangers. I'll just cut/paste a couple, but if you don't believe me, look it up in the library or on the net.

By in large, the stuff contains chemicals that can cause serious injury. You're not supposed to get it on your skin because it soaks through quickly, so to speak, and enters the blood stream. You're not supposed to inhale the fumes. And obviously you're not supposed to get it in your mouth.

From a website at Holy Cross University regarding denatured alcohol:
Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES
Route Of Entry - Skin: YES
Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES
Health Haz Acute And Chronic: ACUTE: MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED. HARMFUL IF INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN. CAUSES SKIN, EYE, AND UPPER RESPIRATO TRACT IRRITATION. CAN CAUSE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM DEPRESSION AND BLINDNESS. CHRONIC: LIVER AND KIDNEY DAMAGE.
Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO
Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO
Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO
Explanation Carcinogenicity: NONE OF THE COMPOUNDS IN THIS PRODUCT IS LISTED BY IARC, NTP, OR OSHA AS A CARCINOGEN.
Signs/Symptoms Of Overexp: IRRITATION, DROWSINESS, CNS DEPRESSION, NAUSEA, VOMITING.
Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: LIVER AND KIDNEY.
Emergency/First Aid Proc: INHALATION:REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. RESUSCITATE IF NOT BREATHING. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION. EYES:IMMEDIATELY FLUSH WITH PLENTY OF WATER FOR 15 MINUTES. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION. SKIN:REMOVE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING FLUSH WITH WATER. IF IRRITATION PERSISTS, GET MEDICAL ADVICE. INGESTION:DO NO INDUCE VOMITING UNLESS INSTRUCTED TO DO SO. GIVE NOTHING BY MOUTH IF UNCONSCIOUS. GET IMMEDIATE MEDICAL ATTENTION.

And I'm supposed to cook with this? What about soot on the pan that might find away into the pot and then into my system? How can I keep this stuff away, off, and out of me while shivering, pouring, cooking, carrying, cleaning?

To get to my main point, I would encourage fellow alcohol stove users to seriously consider pure grain alcohol in lieu of denatured, iso-, HEET, etc. Most often sold in liquor stores under brand names such as "Golden Grain," it's 195 proof drinking alcohol.

I've heard some talk about its high cost. In my city, Lexington, KY, it sells for $12 a quart. I don't know the cost in other states, and frankly I'd happily pay double or triple the cost. There are 32 ounces in a quart. I use about 1/2 ounce for breakfast and 1/2 ounce for dinner, so about an ounce a day. That means that I can cook for a bout $12 a month. I haven't done a thru yet and maybe I'll never be lucky enough to have the chance, but it seems that it takes about 5 mths. to do it. So for the entire thru, my stove fuel costs would be about $60. Happily I'm wealthy enough to afford that cost, especially since I was stupid enough to pay $7 for a titanium spoon. I don't mind at all paying the extra money for grain alcohol since I don't have to worry about poisoning myself.

I don't know if it's readily available in towns while resupplying, but when I've done long section hikes, I just mail it to myself. The alcohol dispenser bottles from Brasslite are great -- 4, 8, and 16oz sizes.

I know there will be jokes about drinking it, and that's fine. But even though I don't drink booze, I guess some enterprising soul who does drink could also make the argument that since grain alcohol has a dual use, then there's really no need to carry a flask of whiskey, etc, so there is a weight savings, also.

In conclusion, the extra cost of using grain alcohol buys not only great fuel, but also health safety.

That's my .02 worth.
Once you find a supply of 195 proof grain alcohol. Buy enough to send to some post offices in the north, because in years of searching, I've never found it north of the Mason=Dixon line.

It's truly a valuable trail product. I've used it (sparingly) as a fuel. And (occasionally) mixed with Tang as an evening "pick-me-up," though as I recall, the combination tended to put me asleep.