Snake bite compression bandage.

[jjozgrunt]

G'day guys. Coming from Australia where everyone with half a brain carries at least 1 compression bandage when they bushwalk, I'm surprised that all the Youtube videos that show gear and their 1st aid kit, no one has one. Is this somewhere I can drop some more weight?

[daddytwosticks]

I don't know how common/uncommon it is for AT hikers to get bit by venomous snakes. I've never heard of an instance. If I were you, I'd not bring any snake bite remedies or first aid items in my kit. There are so many other things that can cause issues on an AT hike besides snakes (hypothermia, heat stroke, bee sting, sprained ankle, falls.....). :)

[Marta]

Compared to Australian snakes, the few poisonous snakes in the Appalachians are pretty negligible. They're not very aggressive, and they're not very poisonous.

Copperheads

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agkistrodon_contortrix

Timber rattlers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_horridus

Your snakes from home would not be impressed by either of them.

[garlic08]

I carried a compression bandage (we call them Ace bandages) unused for decades. It's now in the back of a drawer somewhere, probably turning yellow and crumbling.

I also used to carry three fire starters, a signal mirror, flagging tape, several generic medications that would turn to dust over the years, an over-the-top multitool...and you should have seen my pack in the winter. I was one of those guys with a huge pack on every day hike, prepared for everything. There's nothing wrong with that and I'm kind of happy to see those guys every once in a while, but I put in my shift and I've moved on.

What's most important in a medical emergency is your head, not your kit. The largest kit in the world is useless if you panic. Training is way more important than what you carry.

[swjohnsey]

I don't carry anything for meteor strikes, either.:)

[jjozgrunt]

No problems they go. I actually carry very little in the first aid kit, except for them, and tend to make do. I was actually reading up on the poisonous snakes you had and I agree Marta, they seem very tame, almost friendly and cuddly. Life in the military, infantry, walk leader and trained in remote area 1st aid, so panic isn't in my nature.

[rocketsocks]

G'day guys. Coming from Australia where everyone with half a brain carries at least 1 compression bandage when they bushwalk, I'm surprised that all the Youtube videos that show gear and their 1st aid kit, no one has one. Is this somewhere I can drop some more weight?what, how and where (location) do you apply the compression bandage?

[tagg]

what, how and where (location) do you apply the compression bandage?

Ideally with elastic wrap, directly over the bite and six inches to either side (checking for adequate circulation of the fingers or toes).

[garlic08]

Ideally with elastic wrap, directly over the bite and six inches to either side (checking for adequate circulation of the fingers or toes).

To clarify, between the bite and the heart? As I understand, the idea is to restrict the lymphatic system, not blood circulation. No tourniquets! I remember hearing that even a light rubber band will work.

[Fireplug]

Compared to Australian snakes, the few poisonous snakes in the Appalachians are pretty negligible. They're not very aggressive, and they're not very poisonous.

Copperheads

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agkistrodon_contortrix

Timber rattlers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_horridus

Your snakes from home would not be impressed by either of them.

there isn't a snake in America that is poisonous!!! However there are VENOMIOUS snakes. I had an encounter with a timber rattler this June. I had to get a log to get it off the trail.

[tagg]

To clarify, between the bite and the heart? As I understand, the idea is to restrict the lymphatic system, not blood circulation. No tourniquets! I remember hearing that even a light rubber band will work.

I always read directly over the bite, and wrapped wide enough that the wrap extends 6" in either direction of the bite. My understanding was that doing so may help to slow the spread of the venom. Full disclosure, I've only read this and am by no means an expert. But I've also never died from a snakebite, so I may carry a certain degree of merit.

[garlic08]

Gotcha. Protocols change every few years, for good reason usually.

[Uncle Joe]

there isn't a snake in America that is poisonous!!! However there are VENOMIOUS snakes. I had an encounter with a timber rattler this June. I had to get a log to get it off the trail.

Seriously, if I'm bitten I'm probably not going to get worked up over semantics. Besides, that would just raise my blood pressure and make matters worse! :rolleyes:

[Odd Man Out]

I think the other variable to consider is the availability of help. The AT is crowded enough and close enough to civilization that rescue (self or assisted) is usually close enough that se of the ergencies we plan foray not be as urgent as weay imagine.

[Odd Man Out]

Oops, that should have been "...some of the emergencies may not be as urgent as we imagine." Ug

[4shot]

I don't know how common/uncommon it is for AT hikers to get bit by venomous snakes. I've never heard of an instance. If I were you, I'd not bring any snake bite remedies or first aid items in my kit. There are so many other things that can cause issues on an AT hike besides snakes (hypothermia, heat stroke, bee sting, sprained ankle, falls.....). :)

A few years back I did meet a fellow on the AT who was SOBO'ing while I was doing a section hike north. He had attempted a thru-hike the previous year but a copperhead bite while he was getting his evening water somewhere in Va. ended that. Only person I ever met or spoke with who had experienced a venomous snakebite. You will be likely to see rattlesnakes on the AT but they are usually courteous and will alert you to their presence. The copperheads will not but you will usually not see them unless very close to water sources. Fortunately there are no cotton mouths up in the mountains. Those things are evil and will bit you for fun. But, at the end of the day, snake protection on the AT is not necessary.

[rocketsocks]

Ideally with elastic wrap, directly over the bite and six inches to either side (checking for adequate circulation of the fingers or toes).


To clarify, between the bite and the heart? As I understand, the idea is to restrict the lymphatic system, not blood circulation. No tourniquets! I remember hearing that even a light rubber band will work.

thanks, to know.

[rocketsocks]

Gotcha. Protocols change every few years, for good reason usually.and that's exactly why I ask. I remember the exactlo blade and little suction cup, "The Extrator" years later, and a whole bunch of torn bed sheets, mud packs, tea leaves & tobacco in between.

[Engine]

I am a paramedic who has worked many snakebite calls, and I used to work doing snake and alligator shows (along with an out of place hippo...) at one of the tourist trap attractions in central Florida. Having been bitten by a cottonmouth and working with the snakes for a few years I'll share some thoughts on the use of a compression dressing for our local venomous snakes.

Here in the states, the vast majority of our dangerous snakes have a venom which is composed almost entirely of hemotoxin with very minor neurotoxic or cytotoxic properties. There are notable exceptions such as the Coral Snake (almost 100% neurotoxic) and the Mojave Rattler who's venom is particularly nasty with all 3 properties.

But, on the AT, our concern is for the Copperhead and the Timber Rattler or Canebrake as it's known further south. Both of these snakes are from the family Crotalidae, which are common pit vipers...almost 100% hemotoxic. Unlike the venom of most Australian snakes, which is primarily neurotoxic, the venom of these snakes is particularly damaging to local tissue. Bites from eastern pit vipers are usually minor and even when severe, a healthy adult can typically withstand the insult systemically. But, when you trap the venom in a localized area, the tissue damage often becomes extensive and loss of the limb is not uncommon.

In short, compression is an excellent short term treatment for neurotoxic snakes (Coral Snake, Cobra, Australian Eastern Brown, etc...). But, in an otherwise healthy adult, compression is not necessarily a good choice for the initial treatment of a bite along the AT corridor.

Stay alert and do what you can to avoid being bitten, especially avoiding messing with the snake, which is how most bites happen. But if bitten, remain calm and try to keep the bitten extremity below the level of your heart. Staying still is best (if rescue is on the way), but if you must self evacuate, move at a moderate pace and keep your heart rate as low as possible.

Snake bite case histories can be gruesome and trust me, you don't want to end up laying in the emergency department while a local physician stands over you reading a pamphlet on the treatment of snakebites...it's doesn't induce much confidence.

[PD230SOI]

Nice clarification Engine. As with everything I read on the internet I will check a couple of sources, but that was remarkably clear and to the point. Nice to hear experienced and trained folks chime in.

thanks again.

[Don H]

EMT protocols in my state specifically dictate that no constricting bands (such as a tight Ace bandage) are to be used.

Treatment includes:

1. Immobilize an extremity
2. Apply cold packs for pain relief
3. Do not apply constricting bands

Other treatment includes advanced skill such as IV and drug therapy.

[garlic08]

...especially avoiding messing with the snake, which is how most bites happen....

Yep. An MD friend of mine in Phoenix told me most snakebite victims she sees are young adult males, on a weekend afternoon, the bite is on the hand, and alcohol is almost always involved.

And thanks for the rest of the info. Good stuff to review.

[Wise Old Owl]

Here in the USA the snakes are far more laxed and are not worthy - there are so many travelers on the AT they stay away,,, Yes I have stepped over them, on the trail. forget the need for the med kit.

[Wise Old Owl]

edit
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[jjozgrunt]

I am a paramedic who has worked many snakebite calls,.........
Thanks for that Engine it's good to know. I wasn't aware of the different types of toxins, only that ours were bad, something else I can throw out of the kit and feel ok about.

Now what can you tell me about bears, cougars (non human female), bobcats and men playing banjo's with names like Billy Bob? LOL

[Traveler]

Thanks for that Engine it's good to know. I wasn't aware of the different types of toxins, only that ours were bad, something else I can throw out of the kit and feel ok about.

Now what can you tell me about bears, cougars (non human female), bobcats and men playing banjo's with names like Billy Bob? LOL

Black bears shouldn't be a problem, most run off at the sight/sound of you. Be responsible with your food and you'll be fine. Cougars are in the Western US, not necessarily the eastern mountains, though there may be an occasional cat that migrates or wanders through its pretty rare. Careful in assessing those playing musical instruments, not all of them are named Billy Bob and have diminished capacities, much as not all Australians drive around the deserts half naked looking for fuel and chasing fully dressed men named Max.

[daddytwosticks]

...watch out for killer coyotes and hillbillys who think you have a purdy mouth. :)

[jjozgrunt]

what, how and where (location) do you apply the compression bandage? Sorry missed this post rocketsocks. Here is the accepted snake bite treatment which is taught in Australia. As I've seen in another post our snakes have a different type of toxin and therefore this treatment is not required for US snakes. https://www.health.qld.gov.au/poisonsinformationcentre/bites_stings/bs_pressure.asp
I will add that on my last refresher on remote area 1st aid they also recommending marking the location of the bite on the outside of the bandage. When the person reaches hospital they will tape above and below the bite, cut the section of bandage away from the bite area and take a swab to ID the type of snake (hence why they state don't wash the bite area).

[rocketsocks]

Sorry missed this post rocketsocks. Here is the accepted snake bite treatment which is taught in Australia. As I've seen in another post our snakes have a different type of toxin and therefore this treatment is not required for US snakes. https://www.health.qld.gov.au/poisonsinformationcentre/bites_stings/bs_pressure.asp
I will add that on my last refresher on remote area 1st aid they also recommending marking the location of the bite on the outside of the bandage. When the person reaches hospital they will tape above and below the bite, cut the section of bandage away from the bite garea and take a swab to ID the type of snake (hence why they state don't wash the bite area).thanks for the reply.

[JPritch]

Literally the one day I decide to leave my cell phone in my car, I encounter my first ever timber rattler, atop The Priest. A beautiful black phase one at that. Smdh.

[bfox]

I have always wondered, I never got a straight answer on this...

In the event you get bit and are a few miles from the a road crossing or other help. Would it be recommended to have the person hike out, so that they could get to a hospital quicker, or have them stay put immobilize the bite location and send someone else to call for an evacuation? At what point would the distance to help change your decision on this? For example, needing to get medical help in X number hours of a bite would require the victim to walk out instead of waiting for an evac.

[Tipi Walter]

The old rattleheads are getting worse year by year according to my experience, at least in the mountains of TN and NC. On a 19 day July 2016 trip I saw two rattlesnakes in quick succession.

My worst trip was in July 2015 when I was out for 20 days and saw 4 pit vipers---1 copperhead and 3 rattlesnakes. Never seen so many on one trip. I befriend the little retardants and there's no cause for alarm, just look where you sit and where you walk and slow down. When you see one it's a cause for celebration as they are the last vestige of wilderness in what's left of America the beautiful.

NEVER KILL A SNAKE ON A HIKING TRIP. If you do the snake nation will get revenge and you'll get bit at the least likely time, justifiably.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/20-Days-on-Medicare/i-g49K7Cv/0/XL/TRIP%20166%20149-XL.jpg
My strangest encounter was backpacking the Benton MacKaye trail on State Line Ridge between Sandy Gap and Sled Runner Gap, one long dry ridge. I dumped my pack on the ridge and walked 100 feet down the hillside to a secret water source spring and squatted to get full water for the night's camp in Sled Runner Gap. Blessed water. As I filled all my containers (filter bag on the right) my right arm was busy pumping and stuff and then I stood up and saw Jimmy, my new best friend.

He remained calm thruout my fidgety spider monkey water retrieval and so did I---until our eyes met. I screamed like a bonobo monkey running from a silverback gorilla in a personal lubricant factory but he only wanted to eat a rodent . . . . and yet I was the biggest rodent on the hill. Hmmm . . . . . We talked and Jimmy said he thinks he's King of the Ridge and I agreed with him.


https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/16-Days-with-a-Miracle-Dog/i-PptzFWW/0/L/TRIP%20111%20036-L.jpg
Another time I was backpacking thru the Citico Creek wilderness and set up camp next to South Fork Creek and took a casual dayhike around the tent whereby I had the good fortune to meet Little Johnny as pictured. He told me to relax and go back to the tent and eat dinner which I did.


https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/20-Days-on-Medicare/i-FVMMfkh/0/XL/TRIP%20166%20039-XL.jpg
On a very recent trip I backpacked thru the Bald River Gorge wilderness and once again walked around my campsite to check out Bald River and discovered a new buddy named Frank and he told me he loves the river and the area.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/17-Days-In-Rattlerville/i-zgjJDwS/0/XL/Trip%20165%20323-XL.jpg
Finally, I gotta share this one. I was backpacking up the Nutbuster trail---considered the hardest trail in the Southeast. Aka the Upper Slickrock Creek trail #42---it's a real nutbuster! Most of the trail is a hellish series of blowdowns and big fallen hemlock trunks. You grab a horizontal trunk and shimmy over and hope you don't collapse on the other side inside a wall of brambles.

As I was negotiating the hateful tree trunks I placed my hand next to this wonderful Being and he didn't think any humans would be stupid enough to hike such a crappy trail but there I was. We talked and I was exhausted anyway under my 80 lb pack so he mentioned something about a Pit Viper get-together later that night but I told him I was late to the Gap at the end of this trail and couldn't hang out.

[Engine]

Tipi, you should have been a nature photographer by trade...some of the photos you have posted over the years are National Geographic cover-worthy.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, you should have been a nature photographer by trade...some of the photos you have posted over the years are National Geographic cover-worthy.

Thanks for the positive input! Sadly I generally dislike the technical aspects of cameras (and my little point and shoot)---so whatever you're seeing you like was achieved by accident. Snake pics are in the category of Tents in the Snow pics---they always tend to look good.

[bigcranky]

Now what can you tell me about bears, cougars (non human female), bobcats and men playing banjo's with names like Billy Bob? LOL

Hey, now, one of my best friends is named Billy and plays the banjo. He's really good, too. If you manage to get an invite to a local bluegrass or "old time" music jam in the Southern Appalachians, count your blessings and GO! I'd rather sit around and pick with my friends than do most anything else.

Bears aren't really a problem. Seen a bunch of them, they all have run away, usually a short distance, then they hang out and watch. I just talk to them as I walk past. If you can read a dog's body language, that applies reasonably well to bears, too.

[MuddyWaters]

You walk by dozens of rattlesnakes every day in the appalachians. You just dont know they are there.

[Tipi Walter]

You walk by dozens of rattlesnakes every day in the appalachians. You just dont know they are there.

Exactly. If I don't see it on the trail it's not a problem. There could be a hundred all around me but if they're not underfoot I could care less.

[Maineiac64]

I always keep an eye on the far side of all logs I am stepping or climbing over.

[Engine]

I always keep an eye on the far side of all logs I am stepping or climbing over. Not looking down first while jumping from a big log on the shore of Fontana lake very nearly got me bitten once. The healthy 4 foot timber rattler I almost stepped on was not at all amused.

[MtDoraDave]

In the 300 or so miles of AT I've hiked, I've seen 2 timber rattlers.
One was in the rocks on the jump up place half way up the climb nobo from the NOC. After reading the Wiki article linked earlier in the thread, likely a gravid female - she was grumpy; very actively rattling.
The second one was further south, in June, right on the edge of the trail. I didn't see it, my hiking partner did. I stepped right past it, within inches. Being a well populated time/ place on the trail, we used a trekking pole (extended out all the way) to shoo it off the trail for the safety of other hikers who, like me, may not see it and could possibly step on it. Only for a couple seconds of our attempt to shoo it away did it bother to rattle. It was a very laid back snake. It did eventually leave the trail, and we were on our way.

I do carry an ace bandage when I hike, but I'm glad I read this thread so I know not to use it for a snake bite.

[Tipi Walter]

Not looking down first while jumping from a big log on the shore of Fontana lake very nearly got me bitten once. The healthy 4 foot timber rattler I almost stepped on was not at all amused.

Same thing happened to me climbing up the South Fork trail in the Citico "bewilderness". I put up my tent and hiked around camp over a couple blowdowns and saw Big Jimmy relaxing and contemplating the day. (No relation to Jimmy as above). We both exchanged trekking information and compared our trip schedules etc.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/19-Days-in-a-Rattlesnake/i-N69rhV2/0/XL/Trip%20175%20334-XL.jpg

[Don H]

From the Maryland EMT, Wilderness EMS Protocols:
X. Snake Bites


1. There are two wild snakes indigenous to the State of Maryland that are poisonous:


a) Northern Copperhead – The Northern Copperhead is identi ed by the coppery color to its head and the alternating tan and dark brown on its body. It likes to hide within woodpiles or under logs.

b) Timber Rattlesnake – The Timber Rattlesnake is a large, stout bodied snake that can grow up to 5 feet or more. It is typically identi ed by bands of dark chevrons on its back. Generally the snake likes to live in wooded areas but gravid females may be found sunning on open rocks.



2. Snake bites may or may not present with paired fang puncture wounds. A snake bite may also present with a single puncture wound or just a scratch.

3. The greater majority of bites will present with immediate onset of pain at the site of the bite. The bite will become swollen and erythematous.

4. Mark the site of erythema and monitor its progression.

5. Treatment


a) Gently clean the area and cover with a sterile dressing.

b) Do NOT attempt to suck out the venom with a commercial or improvised device.

c) Do not apply a distal and proximal constricting band for poisonous snakebite
to an extremity. Splint the extremity. Remove any jewelry on affected extremity.

d) As much as possible keep the affected area below the level of the heart.

e) Unless absolutely necessary, the patient should be carried out rather than
walked out on their own accord.

f) Calmly expedite transport out of the wilderness.



6. Do NOT try to catch the snake for identification purposes.

[Siestita]

Allergic reactions to stings from bees or wasps apparently are more common threats to human life here in the Eastern USA than are venomous snakes.

Finding the advise presented below useful, my first aid supplies always include the anti-histamine Benedyrl or its generic equivalent.


http://www.backpacker.com/gear/experts/ask-buck/benadryl-for-snakebites/

[Moosling]

Stay alert and do what you can to avoid being bitten, especially avoiding messing with the snake, which is how most bites happen. But if bitten, remain calm and try to keep the bitten extremity below the level of your heart. Staying still is best (if rescue is on the way), but if you must self evacuate, move at a moderate pace and keep your heart rate as low as possible.

Bravo Engine glad you made the point of moving moderately if you need to move at all....Don't be a hero folks call for some help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RangerZ]

Compared to Australian snakes, the few poisonous snakes in the Appalachians are pretty negligible. They're not very aggressive, and they're not very poisonous.

Copperheads

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agkistrodon_contortrix

Timber rattlers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_horridus

Your snakes from home would not be impressed by either of them.

For reference look at "Poisonous Insects and Snakes of Australia", volumes 1-10. 🐍🕷

[blw2]

and that's exactly why I ask. I remember the exactlo blade and little suction cup, "The Extrator" years later, and a whole bunch of torn bed sheets, mud packs, tea leaves & tobacco in between.
I remember reading a new idea about 25 years ago maybe, that was apparently showing promise in some "studies". I can't rember where.... some outdoor or hunting sports magazine probably... It had to do with high voltage low current electroshock applied to the bite site..... (i.e. stun gun or an engine ignition coil shock). Haven't seen any mention of it since so I guess it never caught on:-?

[Traveler]

I remember reading a new idea about 25 years ago maybe, that was apparently showing promise in some "studies". I can't rember where.... some outdoor or hunting sports magazine probably... It had to do with high voltage low current electroshock applied to the bite site..... (i.e. stun gun or an engine ignition coil shock). Haven't seen any mention of it since so I guess it never caught on:-?

Cletus, hol' muh beer 'n watch this.....

[jjozgrunt]

For reference look at "Poisonous Insects and Snakes of Australia", volumes 1-10. 

I see you have only got the smaller travel volumes. For the complete list you need this volume.
38183

[Sarcasm the elf]

I see you have only got the smaller travel volumes. For the complete list you need this volume.
38183

38184

0123456789

[Obiwan]

Not AT related exactly, but I have never seen instructions on what to do if you are a LOONG way from civilization. Hope for the best???

[rocketsocks]

I remember reading a new idea about 25 years ago maybe, that was apparently showing promise in some "studies". I can't rember where.... some outdoor or hunting sports magazine probably... It had to do with high voltage low current electroshock applied to the bite site..... (i.e. stun gun or an engine ignition coil shock). Haven't seen any mention of it since so I guess it never caught on:-?I've never heard of that one, interesting, though I don't mind saying I'd have a hard time shocking the dog outta myself after having been bit and in pain. :D

[jjozgrunt]

Not AT related exactly, but I have never seen instructions on what to do if you are a LOONG way from civilization. Hope for the best???

If you have no comms, no PLB and on a less well used track, put your head between your legs and well you know the rest. Just joking, a lot would depend on where you were bitten, type of snake, type of poison, do you have any treatment options, how healthy you are etc etc. One would hope that if you plan a hike, a long way from civilization, one of the first things on the gear list is a PLB.

[dzierzak]

I remember reading a new idea about 25 years ago maybe, that was apparently showing promise in some "studies". I can't rember where.... some outdoor or hunting sports magazine probably... It had to do with high voltage low current electroshock applied to the bite site..... (i.e. stun gun or an engine ignition coil shock). Haven't seen any mention of it since so I guess it never caught on:-?

Short answer - it doesn't work.
Wilderness Environ Med. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed#) 2001 Summer;12(2):111-7.
Use of stun guns for venomous bites and stings: a review.Ben Welch E (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Ben%20Welch%20E%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=11434486)1, Gales BJ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Gales%20BJ%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=11434486).
Abstract
During the past 2 decades, articles suggesting that stun guns be utilized to treat venomous bites and stings have appeared in both the lay and medical press. Although never widely considered to be standard therapy for venomous bites and stings, stun guns are still considered to be a treatment option by some medical practitioners and outdoor enthusiasts. A Medline search was performed using these terms: venomous bites, venomous stings, snake bites, spider bites, electrical, stun gun, high voltage electricity, low amperage electricity, direct current, and shock therapy. Articles selected included laboratory-based isolated venom studies, animal studies, and case reports involving humans in which a stun gun or some other source of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks were used to treat actual or simulated venomous bites or stings. We concluded that the use of stun guns or other sources of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks to treat venomous bites and stings is not supported by the literature.


PMID: 11434486

[rocketsocks]

One time, at band camp, me and my buddy were out hiking and he got bit on the pee pee, so I ran back to get the doctor and the doctor said you have to suck all the poison outta the wound. When I got back to my buddy he said "whud he say, whud he say"? The doctor said you are going to die! :D