View Full Version : Rain ingress problem with tarptent contrail
I was recently camping at Dolls flats (near Roan Mt, TN) close to the edge of the woods, when a heavy rainstorm blew in. The tent was set up so the long edge was perpendicular to the wind (I wasn't expecting the storm). The main problem was that rivulets of water were running down the sheltered side of the tent and instead of dripping off the edge of the tent, they were running back into the tent along the mesh towards the edge of the bath tub. Eventually the mesh got so sodden, that it weighted down the edge of the bath tub to the ground and the water started coming into the tent.
I tried adjusting the bath tub with the tensioners in the vestibule, but to no avail. The bathtub shape is delicate,even in good conditions a wayward map can distort it.
The heavy rain didn't last long so not too much water came in thankfully.
Some of the problem may be due to the strong wind coming in one side of the tent and exiting the other, pushing down the mesh as it exits.
What can I do to mitigate this problem next time?
garlic08
07-14-2016, 23:28
Did you stake down the center point(s) of the side(s)? You'll see a small webbing loop there. You can add a short guyline, too, but I haven't. I carry two extra stakes for the side points in case I need to make a cross-wind pitch, or am expecting a blow.
It's hard to adjust floor tension while you're sitting on the floor.
Did you stake down the center point(s) of the side(s)? You'll see a small webbing loop there. You can add a short guyline, too, but I haven't. I carry two extra stakes for the side points in case I need to make a cross-wind pitch, or am expecting a blow.
It's hard to adjust floor tension while you're sitting on the floor.
Yes, I had guys and stakes on the center point of the sides. I can imagine how much flapping about there would be otherwise.
Good point about tensioning while sitting on tub...
Yes, I had guys and stakes on the center point of the sides. I can imagine how much flapping about there would be otherwise.
Good point about tensioning while sitting on tub...
I have a tarp tent Squall that I used to use and it needed to retentioned after sitting up for a while. (that is one reason I use cuben for my shelters now, no stretch.). I also found, at least with the squall, that a small difference in setup could result in wildly different results.
I have one too and had the same problem once. Remember to loosen the tensioners at each corner, stake out, insert the hiking stick".......and then snug it up. Doing this will keep the drip edge of the tent out and away from the netting.
Wise Old Owl
07-15-2016, 23:09
My mess kit has a Green pad and a sponge on one side, I have a mini sham wow too. Part about Backpacking is putting up with a few failures. You can have the best tent in the world and a Hurricane can blow up and rain for three days. You will get wet.
MtDoraDave
07-16-2016, 07:30
This happened with my Squall 2 once. I figured the design would be better if the screen was sewn a half inch back from the edge of the tent, so the rain could drip off rather than loop around to the screen ... so I emailed Henry Shires about this issue with my suggestion. He emailed back and said to be sure my poles were set to 115 cm, or perhaps a bit lower, and it should solve this problem. Funny, I didn't tell him I had my poles set longer to make the entrance taller - but apparently I am not the first one to do this - or to have it cause a water intrusion problem.
Watch the setup video again to be sure you are doing it as it was designed to be done, then, if you did pitch just like the instructions and had your poles set to the recommended height when this happened, sent Henry (at Tarptent.com ) an email.
This happened with my Squall 2 once. I figured the design would be better if the screen was sewn a half inch back from the edge of the tent, so the rain could drip off rather than loop around to the screen ... so I emailed Henry Shires about this issue with my suggestion. He emailed back and said to be sure my poles were set to 115 cm, or perhaps a bit lower, and it should solve this problem. Funny, I didn't tell him I had my poles set longer to make the entrance taller - but apparently I am not the first one to do this - or to have it cause a water intrusion problem.
Yes I was thinking the same thing about setting the mesh a bit back from the edge.
I was using the tarptent supplied pole, so presumably the height was correct.
This problem was not a major one. The conditions were as bad I as would expect on the AT regarding wind/rain in summer and the problem was more of an annoyance than a catastrophe. So the the tent performed reasonably well, given the compromises required for weight.
My main reason for asking, was to figure out if the problem was user error or a design issue. Still not sure
It's why we sold our Double Rainbow. We really liked the tent, but a hard blowing rain it would find it's way in no matter how we tweaked the pitch...
Tipi Walter
07-17-2016, 11:05
The main problem was that rivulets of water were running down the sheltered side of the tent and instead of dripping off the edge of the tent, they were running back into the tent along the mesh towards the edge of the bath tub. Eventually the mesh got so sodden, that it weighted down the edge of the bath tub to the ground and the water started coming into the tent.
Oops, shouldn't happen no matter what.
I have a tarp tent Squall that I used to use and it needed to retentioned after sitting up for a while. (that is one reason I use cuben for my shelters now, no stretch.). I also found, at least with the squall, that a small difference in setup could result in wildly different results.
Setup tweaking seems to be a problem with these tents. If and when Franco (who works for Tarptent) ever replies to this thread, he'll probably show a picture of How It's Really Supposed to be Set Up" with all the proper indepth instructions as if we're all doing it wrong and just can't get it right.
Part about Backpacking is putting up with a few failures. You can have the best tent in the world and a Hurricane can blow up and rain for three days. You will get wet.
This is just untrue. I will not get wet in my tent(s) no matter the conditions, and I have been in many long winter rainstorms---75 hour rain on the North Fork Citico in December, 153 hour rainstorm in the Snowbird backcountry, 180 rainstorm in the Big Frog wilderness. My Snowbird storm caught me in "hurricane" winds on Whiggs Meadow at 5,000 feet with horizontal rain and I never did get wet, even with ground water under the tent an inch deep.
This happened with my Squall 2 once.
Another oops.
It's why we sold our Double Rainbow. We really liked the tent, but a hard blowing rain it would find it's way in no matter how we tweaked the pitch...
The whole purpose of a tent is to keep you and your gear dry no matter the conditions---high winds, cold rain, horizontal rain, condensation, blizzard etc.
daddytwosticks
07-17-2016, 13:27
This is one of those rare occasions where I'll agree with Tipi.
I gave up on tarp-tents (tried three models from two makers) and their fussy set up requirements and misting, sagging silnylon. I went back two a standard one man double wall tent from a major manufacturer (MSR Hubba NX-1) and couldn't be happier. Sets up quick, easy, and is very sturdy. I know tons of hikers love tarp-tents and use them with much success. They are great products, but not for a lazy, picky hiker like me. :)
ggreaves
07-17-2016, 18:39
I was recently camping at Dolls flats (near Roan Mt, TN) close to the edge of the woods....What can I do to mitigate this problem next time?
go into the woods and hang a hammock and tarp
Oops, shouldn't happen no matter what.
This is just untrue. I will not get wet in my tent(s) no matter the conditions, and I have been in many long winter rainstorms---75 hour rain on the North Fork Citico in December, 153 hour rainstorm in the Snowbird backcountry, 180 rainstorm in the Big Frog wilderness. My Snowbird storm caught me in "hurricane" winds on Whiggs Meadow at 5,000 feet with horizontal rain and I never did get wet, even with ground water under the tent an inch deep.
The whole purpose of a tent is to keep you and your gear dry no matter the conditions---high winds, cold rain, horizontal rain, condensation, blizzard etc.
Yes, but, is your tent lightweight? I have a tent I use regularly back in Ireland, keeps me dry in week long rain, but ultra light it 'aint.
Tipi Walter
07-19-2016, 00:17
Yes, but, is your tent lightweight? I have a tent I use regularly back in Ireland, keeps me dry in week long rain, but ultra light it 'aint.
The first measure of a shelter is its ability to protect you from whatever you will encounter weatherwise (within reason, i.e. not falling trees, lightning, a tornado). The second and less important is weight, again within reason (we don't carry canvas wall tents or canvas tipis with woodstoves etc).
Most backpackers consider shelter weight to be the highest qualification but it is not---and so we have this thread on leaking tents.
MuddyWaters
07-19-2016, 04:00
The whole purpose of a tent is to keep you and your gear dry no matter the conditions---high winds, cold rain, horizontal rain, condensation, blizzard etc.
Depends.
Tents are compromises.
With smartyphones, modern weather forecasts, and sturdy shelters every 7 miles on AT, wimpy tarps and fair weather shelters suffice 99.+% of time for most .
As long as have plan B (hike out to safety), and spoonful of common sense, not usually a big deal.
Often UL shelters can require vigilance in conditions that push them to limits , to avoid water intrusion, or snow collapse, or wind failure. Thats a tradeoff. Some know they made that tradeoff, ....but some who just follow the herd find out hard way.
The reason for traveling light...is so one can travel faster. Part of this technique depends on using intelligence, experience, common sense, and the ability to travel fast to stay safe. UL shelters certainly arent reccomended for taking up residence in backcountry on exposed ridges for a month.
Is it worth it to spend restless night now and then to save a couple lbs? Maybe. Depends on person.
But sleeping in secure tent while storm rages outside is definitely a good feeling.
The first measure of a shelter is its ability to protect you from whatever you will encounter weatherwise (within reason, i.e. not falling trees, lightning, a tornado). The second and less important is weight, again within reason (we don't carry canvas wall tents or canvas tipis with woodstoves etc).
Most backpackers consider shelter weight to be the highest qualification but it is not---and so we have this thread on leaking tents.
Well, in all fairness to Tarptent, had the bathtub floor been only a few inches deeper, it would have been the perfect tent for our needs. I do however agree with Tipi that if you're going to sell something and call it a tent, rain should NOT be finding it's way in regularly.
garlic08
07-19-2016, 08:31
Depends.
Tents are compromises...But sleeping in secure tent while storm rages outside is definitely a good feeling.
Ditto all this, and throw in a sense of adventure as well. I'm reminded of a guy I met on the AZT who spent a month out there without a shelter. First thought, the guy's an idiot, but when he described the adventures he had on the few nights it snowed or rained and how he dealt with it, I came away amazed at his resourcefulness, and the twinkle in his eye. He came out a better man.
There may be such a thing as being too safe. It definitely depends on the person.
Tipi Walter
07-19-2016, 09:24
Depends.
Tents are compromises.
With smartyphones, modern weather forecasts, and sturdy shelters every 7 miles on AT, wimpy tarps and fair weather shelters suffice 99.+% of time for most .
As long as have plan B (hike out to safety), and spoonful of common sense, not usually a big deal.
Often UL shelters can require vigilance in conditions that push them to limits , to avoid water intrusion, or snow collapse, or wind failure. Thats a tradeoff. Some know they made that tradeoff, ....but some who just follow the herd find out hard way.
The reason for traveling light...is so one can travel faster. Part of this technique depends on using intelligence, experience, common sense, and the ability to travel fast to stay safe. UL shelters certainly arent reccomended for taking up residence in backcountry on exposed ridges for a month.
Is it worth it to spend restless night now and then to save a couple lbs? Maybe. Depends on person.
But sleeping in secure tent while storm rages outside is definitely a good feeling.
I totally agree that sleeping in a secure tent in a storm is definitely a good feeling. But since the OP put this thread in the general forum I am assuming some of us backpack into places without AT box shelters and plan on staying out without bailing no matter how long bad weather lasts or what our weather radio pings. We take what comes on a day-by-day basis and have the gear to do so.
Your quote "The reason for traveling light . . . is so one can travel faster" is true as it expresses the current rage to embrace the Fast & Light hysteria. But this is mostly true for long trail thruhikers, they are on a 2,000 mile forced march. The rest of us don't want to go fast because #1 it's risky falling-wise and #2 the faster you go the quicker you leave the wilderness. My whole goal is to stay in the wilderness as long as possible.
Well, in all fairness to Tarptent, had the bathtub floor been only a few inches deeper, it would have been the perfect tent for our needs. I do however agree with Tipi that if you're going to sell something and call it a tent, rain should NOT be finding it's way in regularly.
We can be fairer to Tarptent if we point out not only its successes but its failures. No tent is perfect. Every tent has its flaws and no one should shy away from testing a tent to its limits and reporting on how it fails. I have written extensively on the weaknesses of my several Hilleberg tents.
Remember, Kenp talked about water running into his tent. Malto talked about setup tweaking. BigRing "had the same problem once." Mtdoradave said it happened with his Squall once. See a trend here?
Ditto all this, and throw in a sense of adventure as well. I'm reminded of a guy I met on the AZT who spent a month out there without a shelter. First thought, the guy's an idiot, but when he described the adventures he had on the few nights it snowed or rained and how he dealt with it, I came away amazed at his resourcefulness, and the twinkle in his eye. He came out a better man.
There may be such a thing as being too safe. It definitely depends on the person.
I know I could live like a wild dog in terrible weather with no shelter as in your AZT example, but I need more particulars---How many nights was he out without interruption (or town visits)? What did he use for a sleeping pad and sleeping bag? What kind of pack and how much food did he carry? 30 days worth of food for the entire trip? If not, how did he resupply? What were the exact weather conditions?
So if he had no shelter, did he have a bivy bag? How much snow did he get? How much rain and at what temps? What season was in he when he pulled his month-long trip?
Being "too safe" to me is not about the gear I carry but more in line with MuddyWaters' post about relying on AT shelters and frequent town bails. I.e.: Have a Plan B---hike out to safety. This is being "too safe". Hike out to safety? But what's the fun in that? And then you're trip is ruined because you bailed. No, I'd rather carry everything I need for the duration and especially a shelter that has been tested in all conditions and is inside my Circle of Trust.
Why would I want to start a 21 day January trip into the mountains of NC and TN and not bring a shelter? Just so I could have a twinkle in my eye? No thanks.
Secondmouse
07-19-2016, 10:15
I totally agree that sleeping in a secure tent in a storm is definitely a good feeling...
Your quote "The reason for traveling light . . . is so one can travel faster" is true as it expresses the current rage to embrace the Fast & Light hysteria...
But this is mostly true for long trail thruhikers, they are on a 2,000 mile forced march... My whole goal is to stay in the wilderness as long as possible...
Being "too safe" to me is not about the gear I carry but more in line with MuddyWaters' post about relying on AT shelters and frequent town bails. I.e.: Have a Plan B---hike out to safety. This is being "too safe". Hike out to safety? But what's the fun in that?..
Why would I want to start a 21 day January trip into the mountains of NC and TN and not bring a shelter? Just so I could have a twinkle in my eye? No thanks.
Walter, always entertaining and often right! thanks dude...
I understand the purpose of lightweight tents and I understand that choosing a tent for traveling on the AT is an exercise in compromise. in fact, I just recommended that a friend ditch his 4lb tent and check out one of these for his upcoming section hike where his plan is to stay in shelters most of the time.
too often, I see people blame gear who failed to understand and utilize it according to design and directions, but when someone says a tent failed its #1 purpose for lack of an extra inch of floor height, or repositioning where the netting is attached, etc., I don't see how that's defensible.
Walter, always entertaining and often right! thanks dude...
I understand the purpose of lightweight tents and I understand that choosing a tent for traveling on the AT is an exercise in compromise. in fact, I just recommended that a friend ditch his 4lb tent and check out one of these for his upcoming section hike where his plan is to stay in shelters most of the time.
too often, I see people blame gear who failed to understand and utilize it according to design and directions, but when someone says a tent failed its #1 purpose for lack of an extra inch of floor height, or repositioning where the netting is attached, etc., I don't see how that's defensible.
Never said it was only an inch of floor height, it's more like 4-5". But, I don't require a defense so it's all good...
Secondmouse
07-20-2016, 16:02
Never said it was only an inch of floor height, it's more like 4-5". But, I don't require a defense so it's all good...
I never said that. I said it failed for lack of another inch of height or something. not familiar with the Contrail but I think the Rainbow has a second position (via a mitten hook) to suspend the floor to address this issue.
anyway seems like a simple enough fix that if enough wheels squeaked they'd get some grease...
I never said that. I said it failed for lack of another inch of height or something. not familiar with the Contrail but I think the Rainbow has a second position (via a mitten hook) to suspend the floor to address this issue.
anyway seems like a simple enough fix that if enough wheels squeaked they'd get some grease...
Sorry, I misunderstood the intent of your post.
FamilyGuy
08-01-2016, 18:50
The first measure of a shelter is its ability to protect you from whatever you will encounter weatherwise (within reason, i.e. not falling trees, lightning, a tornado). The second and less important is weight, again within reason (we don't carry canvas wall tents or canvas tipis with woodstoves etc).
Most backpackers consider shelter weight to be the highest qualification but it is not---and so we have this thread on leaking tents.
You have posted that your 9 lb Hilleberg leaks. Why doesn't my 1.2 lb cuben fibre shelter?
Tipi Walter
08-01-2016, 23:37
You have posted that your 9 lb Hilleberg leaks. Why doesn't my 1.2 lb cuben fibre shelter?
Get back with me after 800 nights in the thing and we'll talk.
I guess you could carry 4-6 pounds of tape?
FamilyGuy
08-02-2016, 00:39
Get back with me after 800 nights in the thing and we'll talk.
Would 500 be sufficient? Sure has been nice to carry 7.5 lbs less!
The reason why we hike is different for everybody. But I would say that "to be in the wilderness as long as possible" is a bit shaky. In fact, one can get a trailer and really stay inside whatever storm is coming, no hilleberg is needed. On the other hand, that does not matter what is hauled by the truck, a hilleberg tent or a trailer, they are both very storm worthy and both weighted about the same. The hilleberg does not have wheels though.
I definitely on the side of those who said the water coming by the side of a tent and into the floor bathtub instead of dripping down on to the ground from the tarp's side edge is the design flaw. It should not happen under any conditions, no matter what the setup was. I would request my money back.
Returning to the why we hike, I would say we still hike, so waiting the storm of life to pass by sitting inside the bomb proofing tent is not the hiking. Break up the camp, and move on is. Chances are, while moving one would hike out of a storm area. So weight of carried shelter kicks in again, the lesser it is the further one can move out of the flooded area.
Tipi Walter
08-02-2016, 07:33
The reason why we hike is different for everybody. But I would say that "to be in the wilderness as long as possible" is a bit shaky. In fact, one can get a trailer and really stay inside whatever storm is coming, no hilleberg is needed. On the other hand, that does not matter what is hauled by the truck, a hilleberg tent or a trailer, they are both very storm worthy and both weighted about the same. The hilleberg does not have wheels though.
Returning to the why we hike, I would say we still hike, so waiting the storm of life to pass by sitting inside the bomb proofing tent is not the hiking. Break up the camp, and move on is. Chances are, while moving one would hike out of a storm area. So weight of carried shelter kicks in again, the lesser it is the further one can move out of the flooded area.
I must have a giant engorged tick inside my brain eating up my head but your first paragraph is bonkers. First, you say to be in wilderness as long as possible is a bit shaky, and then you say by hauling out a trailer (presumably on a road with a truck) I could really stay inside whatever storm is coming, no Hillie needed. But you forget, a wilderness has no road access and therefore no truck could haul in a trailer. Do you know what a designated wilderness is? You can't haul a trailer on the Appalachian Trail either. Or on a thousand miles of other trails.
A Hilleberg weighs the same as a trailer? Phew, bizzaro.
Returning to the why we hike, I would say we still hike, so waiting the storm of life to pass by sitting inside the bomb proofing tent is not the hiking. Break up the camp, and move on is. Chances are, while moving one would hike out of a storm area. So weight of carried shelter kicks in again, the lesser it is the further one can move out of the flooded area.
This sounds like the Hike or Camp mantra popular with backpackers who want to carry minimal gear. It's another keyword catchphrase, "you either camp or hike", "you pack your fears", "you must practice proper site selection" etc. Question to Amk---Do you hike? Do you camp? Yes or no. Case closed. Ever pull a zero day on a backpacking trip either in a town or at a shelter? Ever had to sit put in a 2 foot blizzard in your tent and not be able to get out?
The gear, tent included, should be goal oriented. If the goal is to be in the wilderness as long as possible, then find a way to put a trailer in your secret place or build a hat equipped with a power generator and a water well there. If you hike, i.e. you place adequate goals such as "tomorrow I should hike up to that place, which is such a mileage from where I am now," then the gear should be lighter and the hiker's fitness should be higher the further that tomorrow place is located. Should the gear put the hiker normally in danger? No. May that occasionally occur under unexpected severe circumstances, yes. If we mind tents, they should not leak or by design provide a way for water into its floor, but they should not promote forming a hernia or getting a muscle strain buy putting excessive load on hiker's shoulders either.
so.............this thread was originally about the Tarptent Contrail? A product that is no longer made?
Kind of makes you go hhhhuuummmmm...........................
Tipi Walter
08-02-2016, 12:41
The gear, tent included, should be goal oriented. If the goal is to be in the wilderness as long as possible, then find a way to put a trailer in your secret place or build a hat equipped with a power generator and a water well there. If you hike, i.e. you place adequate goals such as "tomorrow I should hike up to that place, which is such a mileage from where I am now," then the gear should be lighter and the hiker's fitness should be higher the further that tomorrow place is located. Should the gear put the hiker normally in danger? No. May that occasionally occur under unexpected severe circumstances, yes. If we mind tents, they should not leak or by design provide a way for water into its floor, but they should not promote forming a hernia or getting a muscle strain buy putting excessive load on hiker's shoulders either.
It's illegal to put a trailer in a "secret place" inside a wilderness area. And anyway, I did the whole Squat on Private Land thing with a Tipi and a woodstove and while it's a great life outdoors I was mostly permanent on a NC ridgetop . . . and legal. It was the good life for the 21 years I did it. Luckily I had to cut a one mile trail with a 1,000 foot elevation gain to reach this ridge and so I kept my backpacking chops up as everything was hauled on my back. But I was stuck at this one spot and wanted to move more and see more wilderness.
https://photos.smugmug.com/BooneYears/Tipi-Life/i-rpLJ9rp/0/XL/Scan17-XL.jpg
If you hike, i.e. you place adequate goals such as "tomorrow I should hike up to that place, which is such a mileage from where I am now," then the gear should be lighter and the hiker's fitness should be higher the further that tomorrow place is located.
All my current backpacking trips meet your standard of packing up the kit and moving everyday, unless caught in storms or blizzards whereby I pull a zero in my tent. In fact, it's important for me to move every day on a trip as it keeps the trip's momentum up and I want to explore more trails. When I start a trip I try and write down every campsite on a calendar and stick to it.
Moving this way you say then that the gear should be lighter . . .than what? A trailer? A generator? Well digging tools? And you obviously don't want to carry a heavy pack as you think maybe it can hurt you or whatever. And it's true that an enormous pack requires careful boot placement and more difficult climbs and slower hiking and shorter mile days. But so what? Like I said, when your food load alone is 50 lbs . . .
Walter, I know what real mountain climbing (expedition mountaineering) with heavy pack is, hauling along all these hooks, crampons, ropes, ice axes, provision for a month... Do you know what hiking for a week or two with a lighter pack is?
Anyway, some, many of ultralight gear, shelters, are inadequate, just not functional at all. That happen for the sole reason the gear weight became the only characteristic to consider in the eyes of ultralight crowd running about in flip-flops in California region. But hauling a Hilleberg... Most of the features a hilleberg has are redundant, it would have been entertaining to play with them for zero weight and price penalty, but paying for them and carrying them along, no way. Why? Any general chain store dome type of a tent will have the same main functionality as hilleberg staika will, but it will cost 100 times less and weight for 2 pounds lighter. And there are a bit more expensive big names out there with proper fabrics and other fine stuff... I really do not know why would one consider a hilleberg unless it was given for free and hauled along by a Sherpa.
MtDoraDave
08-03-2016, 07:20
HYOY sort of implies that you shouldn't be snarkily judging the way other people do it.
If you don't want to carry a 8 lb tent, don't carry an 8 lb tent. Your hike isn't their hike. If someone expresses an interest in becoming more of a UL hiker or asks for an equipment shakedown to save weight, then make generator and camper jokes about the weight of their tent.
My first hike after deciding to try backpack camping was 2 miles with a crazy heavy backpack... well over 60 lbs, I'd estimate. The next one was at least 10 lbs lighter, as I ditched the standard 8lb dome tent and carried a regular tarp. I couldn't sleep in a tarp. The next trip was in a 2 lb tent.
Do I pack my fears? Sure, to some extent. 2 headlights because I'm afraid one will die and I'll have to night hike without a light. I'm afraid of freezing to death (or getting hypothermia) so I pack more layers than most. But another analogy I heard early on was about sacrifice: Which comforts am I willing to sacrifice for weight savings.
Tipi Walter
08-03-2016, 09:03
Any general chain store dome type of a tent will have the same main functionality as hilleberg staika will, but it will cost 100 times less and weight for 2 pounds lighter.
I can understand your unwillingness to purchase or use or carry a Hilleberg, HYOH and all. But what is the main functionality of a tent? To keep us dry and protected in all conditions, to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry. TarpTent enthusiasts gush over their tents, Mt Hardwear Trango users love their bomb shelters, Big Agnes guys drool over their Copper Spurs, MSR types recommend their shelters, and Hilleberg idiots once hooked won't go back to anything else.
No sweat. And I'm not a newbie to using other backpacking tents and I've had many---North Face Tuolumne, North Face Westwind, Eureka Timberline, Mt Hardwear Muir Trail, Mt Hardwear Mountain Jet, Mt Hardwear Hammerhead 3, Mt Hardwear Light Wedge, Integral Designs MK3 (single wall)---and several Hillebergs. And believe it or don't but all those tents have disintegrated over time and use---yet the Hillies are still going strong.
The reason I went with Hilleberg was because on a backpacking trip in August 2005 a pole on my Mt Hardwear Light Wedge tent snapped for no apparent reason and dangit I didn't bring a repair sleeve so I fashioned an in-field pole splint. I was finally tired of your typical tents and their foibles and surprises---broken poles, thin crappy floors (30 denier is too thin for a floor!), unsealable mesh canopies, broken zippers, UV ripped flies, flame retardant stink.
So I explored the 4 season tent market. (Must remember that back in the 1970s all backpacking tents sold were considered 4 season). Nowadays it's a different story as truly designated 4 season tents are heavy and half-difficult to find. But you're right, 95% of all the tents I see on my backpacking trips are not 4 season, stuff like TarpTent and Big Agnes and MSR and LightHeart Gear and others. I prefer to carry and live inside a 4 season tent, period.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2005/The-Broken-Tent-Pole-Trip-49/i-T7nWkdF/0/XL/49-7-XL.jpg
Oops, have a nice day.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2005/The-Broken-Tent-Pole-Trip-49/i-FWzLRNh/0/L/49-9-L.jpg
No problem, just carry the poles like this for the next 10 days and have fun thru the rhodo tunnels.
Btw, to see all the different kind of tents I've seen on my trips, go here---
https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/keyword/random%20tents/
FamilyGuy
08-03-2016, 23:44
You talk about Tarptents and the like as if they will fail at 400 nights in the field. How then are these shelters used for entire thru hikes. Sometimes multiple ones.
And what part of the tent are you suggesting causes catastrophic failure? Using trekking poles as part of the structure of a shelter provides a lot more durable strength than tent poles (as you picture above can attest). So is it the fabric? 0.74 cuben fibre (dyneema threads) has a tear strength similar to that of a black label Hilleberg. Do you mean stitching? There are some UL manufacturers that ensure extremely tight tolerances (MLD comes to mind).
Before you rant about snow, I am referring to 3 season shelters (yes, even in the Rockies) that can take a little snow (I have used an A Frame tarp in some pretty gnarly snow and wind in the shoulder seasons without issue. Ergo I am writing this right now ; ) ). The Tarptent Scarp is as robust as a Hilleberg Soulo, is more suitable to modularity (i.e. it works well as a 3 season shelter without the crossing poles), costs less, and is made in North America.
As such, it is difficult to generalize when you mention Tarptent or MLD, or whatever.
In the end, even it the zipper were to fail on a Tarptent after 400 nights, it can be replaced, cost a third of what comparative Hilleberg would and was much, much lighter to carry. So what is the trade off exactly?
Guess a base weight of 40#'s doesn't leave room for a repair sleeve.
Backup sleeping pad, watermelon, ground sheet, extra ground sheet check, double check.
You know what Forrest Gump said?
BTW, Henry at TT says he hardly ever sees a damage tent floor in his repair business and doesn't recommend a ground cloth. His Customer's are such wimps, they couldn't find a good thorn patch to setup in.
But what is the main functionality of a tent? To keep us dry and protected in all conditions, to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry.
You are living very tough life, sir. See if it can be eased a bit.
"To keep us dry and protected in all conditions" change that to "To keep us dry and protected in conditions normally expected in the area at the season of the hike" BTW, protected from what, I guess it is from weather elements, bugs an such, and not from arrows of wild Indians?
Next - "to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry." Holly s...t !!! That is longer than 3 thru hikes!!! And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.
MtDoraDave
08-04-2016, 07:14
You are living very tough life, sir. See if it can be eased a bit.
"To keep us dry and protected in all conditions" change that to "To keep us dry and protected in conditions normally expected in the area at the season of the hike" BTW, protected from what, I guess it is from weather elements, bugs an such, and not from arrows of wild Indians?
Next - "to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry." Holly s...t !!! That is longer than 3 thru hikes!!! And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.
Did someone make you carry a 9 lb tent against your will at some point, and you still harbor a resentment over it?
HYOH and allow others to do the same. You've made your point, repeatedly.
Tipi Walter
08-04-2016, 08:42
You talk about Tarptents and the like as if they will fail at 400 nights in the field. How then are these shelters used for entire thru hikes. Sometimes multiple ones.
I met a hard-core backpacking woman in the Big Frog wilderness a couple years ago by the name of Christine Thuermer---the German Tourist---and she uses Tarptents exclusively. And she puts in an incredible amount of bag nights per year. She has an excellent blog post "What Breaks When" which you should read. Check it out---as regards to your 400 nights in the field comment---
http://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.com/p/what-breaks-when-and-why.html
Here's her blurb on TarpTents---
Tents: I have been using Tarptents through almost all my hiking career and I am extremely happy with them. I started with a Virga, then a Virga II followed by a Contrail and now I am using a Rainbow. After a couple of months of use the tent floor will get little holes, but this has never bothered me and I don't use a ground sheet either. The first thing of consequence that will break is the slider of the tent zipper. Depending on what sort of environment you are moving in (lots of sand or not) this will happen after 4 - 6 months of constant use.
The slider will wear out and you will not be able to zip up the tent any more. This is a gradual process and you should act as soon as you experience the first difficulties. Of course this always happens in mosquito country where you depend on your tent being closed.... The problem is quite easy to fix with a needle and thread if you have spare sliders with you - don't leave for a long trip without the appropriate spare sliders and familiarize yourself with how to change a slider. I change sliders up to 3 times before the tent dies of old age!
After about one year of use the tensioners for the guy lines will wear out and/or the guylines itself will become too slippery to tension them anymore. You can work around it by putting little knots in the guylines or using them with their maximum length, but it will be difficult to tension the tent then without restaking. This is not a life threatening problem but a sign that you should think of getting a new tent.
Three times in my long outdoor career a tent pole has broken and I could always repair it with a repair sleeve. This usually happens when you do not insert the tent pole segments into each other correctly before bending them - they will then break at the thin segment end. Do carry a small repair sleeve on long trips! In my experience a Tarptent can easily withstand 1 - 1,5 years of constant (ab)use before it has to be replaced and this is an excellent life expectancy for an UL piece of equipment.
You are living very tough life, sir. See if it can be eased a bit.
"To keep us dry and protected in all conditions" change that to "To keep us dry and protected in conditions normally expected in the area at the season of the hike" BTW, protected from what, I guess it is from weather elements, bugs an such, and not from arrows of wild Indians?
Next - "to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry." Holly s...t !!! That is longer than 3 thru hikes!!! And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.
"Conditions normally expected" for me range from calm days to July microbursts on mountaintops to a series of 0F blizzards with high winds and spindrift to gully washing deluge rainstorms. My heavy tent handles all this crap with ease and no second thoughts or surprises or howls of frustration. And 400 nights later it's still going strong with no floor holes or broken zippers or busted poles or fraying guylines.
And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.
It's off the wall comments like this which causes me to think you're looking for a Nascar forum and stumbled onto this one. You must know nothing of Walmart tents, like Ozark Trail. I've had two Ozark Trail tents and they are possibly the worst tents ever made. I have to laugh when you say "it will withstand dozens of storms" and this proves you have never used a walmart tent in . . . wait for it . . . dozens of storms.
My first walmart Ozark tent was a 9x12 steel-poled behemoth used for car camping and it leaked like a sieve requiring the purchase of a big blue tarp to cover this single-wall masterpiece from having the inside floor become a lake. My second Ozark Trail tent was a $28 dome piece of crap I took on a backpacking trip to South Dakota in the summer of 2000 and it leaked as usual in the powerful storms so prevalent on the open prairies of South Dakota. And in a windstorm two of its fiberglass poles split and broke so I had to go outside during the worst of it and hold the tent together and upright.
MuddyWaters
08-04-2016, 09:24
In dusty conditions, zippers can cease to function in a week unless you wash out in creeks. All zippers, packs included. They will lock up with fine silt like dust.
Northern new mexico in dry season is hard on zippers
After my last trip to Moab. The zippers on my CS UL4 were sticky. Utah's sand can be like talcum powder and overtime clogs everything up.
BA said to use McNett's zipper lub and not wax. It cleaned everything up real nice , smooth operation and no residue on the tent body