View Full Version : Cart before the horse
Ok. Other than my Zpacks tent which should arrive in mid August, I am about ready for my first short trip on the Appalachian Trail. I was not aware of the expense of getting ready. I have also been training by walking on a treadmill at a 15° incline at 2 1/2 to 3 mph. now my knees are starting to ache. I would hate to think I will begin my initial 42 mile hike, and find that my knees hurt too much. Is this common? I am 56 years old. Is there something I can do to help the ache in my knees? I would hate to think I put the cart before the horse and purchased everything I needed only to find out I cannot make the hike.
Gambit McCrae
07-21-2016, 16:14
We are not in the same age bracket, BUT I did have knee pains early on. I was using anatomy that was not used to the workout. Now days, the pain has left and I can do realistic trips without any pain. Now if you ARE hurting, and the pain is not just "end of the day pain" then I might suggest pulling back on the daily mileage or trip expectations. Nothing wrong with starting out with what you are comfortable with, its not a race. Your daily elevation changes should probably be taken into account as well. If you have a pretty flat day of walking, maybe go a little further. if it feels like a roller coaster, a shorter day might be in order. This is why pack weight is such a focus for lots of folks, the less my pack weighs the further I can go without feeling dead at the end of the day.
Puddlefish
07-21-2016, 16:16
Treadmills might not be the best exercise for pre-hike training. The correct answer is to see a medical professional to determine why your knees ache.
But, since this is the internet, I'll add my opinion. My knees have been a mess for most of my life, I tore the cartilage when I was young, I got fat, various ligaments started slipping out of place. For me, strengthening the muscles around my knees on a bike got rid of a lot of the pain. Stairmasters were also good for low impact training.
Both of these exercises ignore the downhill aspect, which is hard to simulate in a gym. Find a stair or such, and practice stepping down and back up in reverse, this will prepare you somewhat for the downhill portions. You can likely manage 42 miles if you take your time. Don't put a lot of pressure on yourself to walk too many miles a day. Start slowly, and you'll go further. You can probably take enough ibuprofen to deal with the pain, for a week or two, just so long as you aren't doing it long term, and have no medical restrictions with regard to your liver/kidneys.
The best way to train of course is to get out and day hike, starting with a light pack and slowly adding weight. A sudden change from treadmill without a pack, to trail with a heavy pack is going to be jarring on your knees.
ibuprofen.............
make it your friend.......
and your knees could hurt for a variety of reasons............
stretch out before and afterwards might help as well........
ive noticed that as a kid, i had a bunch of knee pain (mainly from playing catcher in baseball since i was 6 years old), that the more hiking I did, the less knee pain i would have...........i think the knees sorta just built up more strength the more i would hike...........
i still have problems when the weather changes but nothing like i was having as a kid.....
Teacher & Snacktime
07-21-2016, 16:17
Sometimes aching is just part of the deal, regardless of age. It would be why Vitamin I is an essential part of the First Aid kit. However, it would probably be a good idea to have those middle-aged knees checked out to be sure you're not causing damage that would cost you significantly more than your hiking gear.
It sucks getting old :(
The best way to train of course is to get out and day hike
yeah....
i meant to add this as well-----the best way to train for a hike----is to go hiking..........
illabelle
07-21-2016, 16:49
There are a variety of knee braces out there that you could consider. I like a simple knee strap that I found at Walgreens. Goes on/off with a little bit of velcro. Some of the devices are like a sleeve, where you'd have to remove your shoes, maybe even your socks to get it on, plus they can be hot.
The strap doesn't reverse aging, unfortunately, but it seems to be helpful in reducing the pain and swelling.
I assume you're using trekking poles. Poles are by far the most important piece of equipment in protecting your joints. Use them to reduce the load on your knees and prevent wrenching twists and falls. ...Yeah, I know, some people never use them, never needed them... whatever.
Slo-go'en
07-21-2016, 17:16
Where are you going to be hiking? That will make a big difference on how bad your knees get beat up. NH and Maine are hell on knees. Lots of very steep climbs and descents, with the down hills murder. I've taken to wearing a light knee brace for down hills here in the Whites. Just a little compression and stabilization helps a lot.
But I find that a commonly used down hill grade for trail in the south also hurts my knees after a while. Sometimes your walking down hill for miles. PA wasn't too bad on the knees, but the feet and ankles took a beating.
As for your current state of knees, I'd stop doing the treadmill and let your knees rest and heal a bit.
la.lindsey
07-21-2016, 17:22
I ended up doing rehab for my knee after a lot of pain my first few section hikes. I have issues that exacerbate knee pain (hyperlaxity), but you may be experiencing overuse syndrome.
Try backing off, a little ice afterwards, and adding in some strengthening exercises. The reverse stairsteps are a great idea and one I do to keep in shape, too.
Ibuprofen does bring swelling down, so take it to get rid of the pain, but don't take too much. And make sure you're drinking lots of water, too. It can damage your kidneys.
Trekking poles are a huge help on the actual hike; I don't leave home without them and would find a stick if one of mine broke.
Make sure you stretch- knee pain can be caused by a tight IT band. There are tons of videos for IT band stretches online and it's a good practice to get into. Opening up your hips is good to do too.
And lastly, consider alternating the treadmill with the bike and some outside walking. Treadmills aren't good for the smaller muscles in your knees that the little bumps and roots and rocks will be activating.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Some days my knees hurt and some days they don't. But, treadmills are quick to cause pain because it's a constant repetitive motion with very little variation. If the treadmill is going to be your chosen mode of training for the day, make sure you vary the speed and incline enough to alter your gate and step rate. I usually start at 3.5-4.0 mph on a 1-2% grade for a few minute to warm up and then add 1-2 % every couple minutes up to 15%. By that point I've often had to decrease the speed a bit. After 5 minutes or so I'll decrease the incline and run at 5-6 mph for a few minutes and then repeat the process. Just keep it interesting and break it up with other types of exercise on a regular basis.
Water Rat
07-21-2016, 18:34
You have already received some awesome suggestions.
Just to throw out another thought. I have a knee that has been the recipient of many sports injuries and surgeries. It does not like walking on roads or treadmills. Neither of them really absorb your step so the shock of your footfall might be traveling up to your knee. Do your knees ache the same if you are hiking on a local dirt path? It could be as simple as your knee finds the treadmill to not be forgiving (much the same as walking on pavement can be painful to the knees).
Don't forget to stay hydrated. Joints need fluid to work efficiently. Water is a major part of that fluid. You may be fine as far as temp regulation; however, you may be dehydrated by body joint fluid standards. I have seen knee pain that was corrected by increasing daily water intake. The other suggestion at our age is glucoglycosomine (sp) supplement. It may take up to 3 months to see its impact though. As mentioned above, a treadmill is hard on joints compared to trail walking. It is just a step below road walking imho.
SkeeterPee
07-21-2016, 22:10
I would think having a dr assessment might be good if you have no idea of cause. I suspect hiking can cause much of the same ailments as running. In general increasing flexibility may help. quad stretches, calf stretches foot stretches, itb band rolling etc.
I treat my backpacking prep a lot like marathon prep. If you come from the couch, every other day walks. Add hills, add miles, add weight, but don't do all three at once. Each week you can add 10% more mileage. But don't try to add more weight and hills at same time.
Currently I am below the mileage I would like to be doing pre hike so next week we only plan to do 6-8 miles per day for my older brothers first backpacking trip.
normally i'd like to be walking 5-8 miles/day with 25 lb pack, with longer weekend hikes with hills as prep for a trip.
I'm also 56. The one thing that helped my knee pain the most was losing 30 lbs. Other than that:
1. I take 400 mg ibuprofen before I hike, and repeat every 4-6 hours (if I'm still hiking).
2. Trekking poles helped me tremendously; I now call them knee-savers.
3. I go downhill very slowly, taking very small steps and keeping my knees slightly bent.
4. I take glucosamine-chondroitin-MSM supplements daily.
I would suggest stopping the treadmill training about 3 days before you start your AT hike so that your knees have some recovery time.
Hikingjim
07-22-2016, 08:54
I have had knee issues arise in the past that seemed to get work themselves out if I don't overdo it.
You could see a doctor, but if you don't, I would recommend making your hike a bit flexible for daily distance and stop when needed. And don't incorporate many really steep downhills on your first hike
Odd Man Out
07-22-2016, 10:17
I took my first "big" hike a few of years ago at age 55. I planned 70 miles in 6 days on the AT in central VA after a couple of years of planning and acquiring gear. After thee days of hiking, one knee was very sore. I limped into a campsite and was ready to quit. That could have been the end, but fortunately for me I was at a spot where quitting was not possivle.y only option was to limp over a Mountain on day 4 to a road crossing with a hostel. I a day off to recover and did a day hike on day 6. I ended up doing 50 miles but still had a great time. It didn't help that I carried too much stuff and picked a section that went east-west (up and down ridges). Since then I've taken several pain free hikes. I've learned to be better at cutting weight, not feeling pressured to keep up with the thru hikers, and doing sections that align with my ability. In my case, the knee pain was from over use and it went away immediately with rest. It was not an injury that needed repair or healing, which was an advantage. So don't feel discouraged. You can make it work. But don't expect it to be painless (literally or figuatively). Like me you seem to have done a good job of planning. But all the planning doesn't replace experience. After just a few hikes I feel much more confident.
I will be hiking from amacalola State Park to Neels gap in Georgia
I actually found that my knee pain pretty much began once I started using the treadmill.
MuddyWaters
07-22-2016, 10:29
"knees hurt" dont give much info.
Lots of parts there, soft and hard.
You can get past tendonitis, muscle strains.
Prognosis much poorer for arthritis type ailments
Exactly...what part hurts and how...is what you must determine and work on
Trailweaver
07-22-2016, 14:55
May I suggest that you save yourself (and your knees) a LOT of grief by avoiding the Amacolola access trail and get a shuttle to the parking lot on FSR 42? Everyone knows that the stairs from Amacolola are a trip killer. If you already have problems, why start with a difficult stair climb that isn't even the AT?
JumpMaster Blaster
07-22-2016, 19:33
Could be arthritis setting in. I hate to say it. Also, I find treadmills don't do anything for me as far as trail conditioning is concerned. The starimaster and elliptical (on high resistance) seem to work better, but again, you have to watch your mechanics.
Going backwards on the elliptical with relatively flat incline and high resistance will help with training for downhills, but nothing really mimics hiking like hiking. Your center of gravity is changed, the terrain is uneven and different, so your footstrike and gait will vary.
I recently bought an open-patella knee brace since one of mine tends to swell up like a cantaloupe. I take Osteo BiFlex when I can remember and try to lay off the ibuprofen- that stuff is bad mugambo for your liver, and mine gets enough work as it is.
frontovik193
07-23-2016, 08:39
Some great advice has already been posted here. Keep your head up and get out there when you feel ready.
Also, don't ever consider informed gear choices to be a waste of money. Even if you don't end up enjoying your purchases, the resale value on quality hiking gear is usually very high. If you do enjoy it and take care of your gear, it should last you many years.
Its funny. I started on a stairmaster. I was doing fine. Then, someone posted that I should do a treadmill instead. It was then that my knees started to hurt. I think I will go back to the stairmaster.
Thanks for the advise about the glucosamine. I just went out and purchased two bottles. Maybe by taking everyones advise such as using a stairmaster instead of the treadmill, taking glucosamine as well as taking short practice hikes nearby, I may do better. Time will tell. I will make my hike attempt in October if all goes well. If not, it will be in the spring. My final goal will be to take it a little at a time until I attempt a Thru Hike in the spring of 2019.
How many minutes or miles have you been doing on the treadmill? (Apologies in advance if you have already answered this and I missed it.)
PS: The PCT kickoff shake down video is good. I haven't watched it in a while. If I remember correctly, he recommends doing 10 mile days or less to start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVWIYP6FaJM
PS again. I finished up a 9 month period of no hiking this spring.
I injured my knee last summer on a hike and was eating WAY too much tuna. Was like jalapeno juice had been injected into my knee. Was diagnosed with my first gout attack last July. :( I also dislocated that patella/kneecap (skiing... not hiking) in 2005, so it has never been "perfect".
That knee is almost back to normal, over a year later. I'm really careful to do shorter days now. Have also lost 10 lbs, which helped a lot. And low protein diet.
I would have NEVER guessed that I have gout, so all of the recommendations to go to a dr. are right on. There might be something going on that nobody, including you, could even guess.
Best wishes and hang in there!
I spend 1 to 1 and a haof hours on the treadmill each day
why a low protein diet? I am on a high protein diet
55 here. I"m a bit believer in training on the trail, and trekking poles, which I pooh-poohed for many years, have actually helped me tremendously, even if only helping to prevent falls on downhill sections (I used to joke that my trail name should be Sir Fallsalot). I also think a visit to an orthopedist might be appropriate, if only for reassurance and for a realistic assessment of where you knees are, so to speak.
Don't know anything about your general starting fitness or activity level... but 90 minutes might be a case of too much, too soon. Maybe more realistic to start like at 15-20 minutes and gradually build up? Also, 90 minutes or 6-8 miles on a treadmill if very different from a steep trail. Trail, you walk at different speeds and take different length strides. On trail, I'd stop and take a break or every 2-3 miles. Repetition of the treadmill could very well be harder on your body/knees. Elliptical is easier on knees... if you start at like 15 minutes and gradually build up. :)
For whatever it is worth, I identify and tend to think if some is good, more must be better. This thinking is very common among hikers, thru-hikers, people planning or thinking of a thru hike, or anybody who has read a book or the internet about 10, 20 or 30+ mile days, trail speed records, etc, etc. Which is pretty much everybody on this board. :) You don't see people post about trips with 4 mile per day plans. That would just be embarrassing! Although, that is pretty much what I have to do these days. :)
why a low protein diet? I am on a high protein diet
Sorry about the confusion.
Low protein is because of gout arthritis and kidney issues. Not recommended for everyone. Do what works for you.
Although, a lot of protein can be harder on our older kidneys - depending on individual. More is not always better.
Check with a doctor about your knees if it is not improving with rest, ice and ibuprofen. You are resting, right? Or are ya doing 90 mins on stair stepper now? :)
Maybe get a reference to a ortho or a physical therapist. Hang in there and good luck and best wishes.
Oh... and your knees will appreciate your low weigh tent. So, no matter, you probably have not put the cart before the horse. And like somebody posted... it will hold resale value.
garlic08
07-24-2016, 12:47
If the treadmill hurts, stop using the treadmill! If any elective activity hurts, either stop doing it or find a different way of doing it that doesn't hurt. Hiking should be pleasant, not painful. Slow down the pace, lighten the load, try different shoes, etc.
Taking painkillers to mask pain makes about as much sense as disconnecting fire alarms during a fire.
Going on a multi-month diet of NSAIDs is a good way to damage your inner works.
And getting medical advice on the internet is worth every penny you pay for it!
Odd Man Out
07-24-2016, 13:23
Some great advice has already been posted here. Keep your head up and get out there when you feel ready.
Also, don't ever consider informed gear choices to be a waste of money. Even if you don't end up enjoying your purchases, the resale value on quality hiking gear is usually very high. If you do enjoy it and take care of your gear, it should last you many years.
+1 I spent years agonizing over my gear choices, thinking I wanted to have everything just right. Then I end up replacing several pieces of gear after each hike. It wasn't that the original choices were wrong or bad. It's just that I'm always tweaking gear choices based on the experience of the previous hike.
I'd like to thank my general condition is very good. I am a construction superintendent, who works his butt off. I walk 5 to 8 miles a day on the job sites. I also fatefully work out at a fitness center. That is where the treadmill came into play. I think I will back off of the treadmill. I also did not realize it too much protein could be bad for somebody At my age. Possibly. Maybe I shall see my doctor for these issues. I am excited. Maybe too excited. I am also one of those who thinks if a little is good more must be better even if it does mean faster.
Teacher & Snacktime
07-24-2016, 20:44
And getting medical advice on the internet is worth every penny you pay for it!
Well, I stand by my medical advice, ie IF YOU HAVE A CONCERN, GO SEE A DOCTOR :)
bcjohnson
07-26-2016, 23:00
Ok. Other than my Zpacks tent which should arrive in mid August, I am about ready for my first short trip on the Appalachian Trail. I was not aware of the expense of getting ready. I have also been training by walking on a treadmill at a 15° incline at 2 1/2 to 3 mph. now my knees are starting to ache. I would hate to think I will begin my initial 42 mile hike, and find that my knees hurt too much. Is this common? I am 56 years old. Is there something I can do to help the ache in my knees? I would hate to think I put the cart before the horse and purchased everything I needed only to find out I cannot make the hike.
Slow down, take Advil, hike your own hike, don't race. Get a physical.
orthofingers
07-27-2016, 09:08
- lose weight from your pack
- lose weight from your body (if you could stand to lose some)
- take it slow, it's not a competitive event so don't over do it.
I am definitely not overweight so that should not be an issue. I have yet to weigh my backpack though. I heard under 30 pounds is a good weight? I am hoping under 25 pounds?
I also have only four days to make this hike. And the last day I have to get to Neels gap early enough to make a 7 Hour Drive back home. Do you think that is pushing it? I hope to get to Neels gap by noon or maybe a couple hours later.
Start hiking early. Use an alarm if necessary.
Have fun.
Wayne
Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."
futureatwalker
07-30-2016, 02:57
Lots of good advice here.
I would suggest 1) ditching the treadmill work for a bit, and 2) trying to get some experience - no matter how short - walking with a pack on.
For the latter, I prepare for backpacking trips by walking to and from the train station (on my way to work), with some type of pack on. It's a mile and a half each way. The idea here is to the legs used to carrying a load.
I'd also suggest - strongly - starting your trip with an easy first day. It's real easy at home to plan big days, but your first day with a fully loaded pack can be tough on the body. Better to have longer days later in the trip, when your body is starting to get used to things, and your pack is a little lighter.
This sounds like a great trip. Let us know how it goes!
Some potentially useful suggestions:
1. As others said, see a Dr. Maybe some PT would help. My knee pain turned out to be the result of back problems. PT fixed me right up.
2. Lighten the load, leave some of your new equipment behind.
3. Use hiking polls, on the down hills it really helps.
4. Train for hiking by hiking - try finding a trail you can walk on a regular basis. This may help the knees by avoiding the repetive motion of your stride on a treadmill.
5. Ice the knees. Standing in a cold mountain stream works.
I look forward to the trip as well as letting all of you how it went. I think if I take all the advise,(some of which I already have) I may just do fine. I have already stopped the treadmill and my knees are feeling better. Also, taking glucosamine. I will start and elliptical tomorrow and begin short hikes the following week on some back roads. They have a lot of ups and downs. Maybe I don't even need the elliptical?
IMO, the only time you should be using machines for training is when you have no other choice to make, i.e., middle of the winter perhaps.
Yes, get hiking, with your full pack ASAP. Short distances to start and see what happens. Most likely if you are carrying too much weight, you will soon find items to leave behind. For a short section hike, you really don't need a lot of "stuff"; pore over your gear list a lot--ask if you really need each item and if you hesitate at all, then ditch it. Your knees will thank you.
booney_1
07-31-2016, 17:15
The upper thigh muscles stabilize the knee joint. Try strengthening them first.
If you google knee pain exercises (or runners knee)
you will find 3 or 4 simple exercises. The straight leg lift is the most important.
Go CRAZY..work up to 100 per side. Alternate sets of 10 pointing your foot the the right, straight and then to the left.
Can you do this in the morning and at night?
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3I1C6aazNHzfB6XLTNB4UbxD3-2V1w0G_JINf8TQ955A6ox1j
I would do these exercises aggressively.
At our age, it would probably be a good idea to have a doctor check your knees out. If your cartilage is worn down, then you might be out of luck.
If the treadmill hurts, stop using the treadmill! If any elective activity hurts, either stop doing it or find a different way of doing it that doesn't hurt. Hiking should be pleasant, not painful. Slow down the pace, lighten the load, try different shoes, etc.
Taking painkillers to mask pain makes about as much sense as disconnecting fire alarms during a fire.
Going on a multi-month diet of NSAIDs is a good way to damage your inner works.
And getting medical advice on the internet is worth every penny you pay for it!
This!
Your financial expense is compounded by your choice of higher priced itsy bitsy wee bit lighter latest greatest UL cottage gear.
I'm also of the opinion knee pain can have a wide range of causes. Attempting to diagnosis or provide medical advice through the net is highly problematic. I also agree masking knee pain temporarily over the longer term with pain killers rather than seeking a greater understanding of the causes of it and alleviating those causes is also highly problematic.
Starting at AF SP there are many steps with some deep risers. Seems like going light and slow is in order. Perhaps, change pro- inflammatory lifestyle choices that could be leading to knee pain? diet, smoking, drinking, being over wt, etc.
I will definitely do the exercises. Both morning and night. I want to do everything I can to make sure my hike is a success. Thanks for the information.
Longboysfan
08-10-2016, 12:43
Stop the thread mill.
All god suggestions above.
This past Spring I started my Thru hike - many sections. One week at a time till I retire a few years.
To get ready I had my poles and full pack and trail walked near where I lived. I still do it every two weeks with the boots to keep them broken in.
Just be sure to have your meds with you.
I got off the treadmill as suggested about one week ago. Guess what? My knees stop hurting. I am now using an elliptical three times a week for just 1 to 2 miles each time. I will also begin hiking some trails by my house next month
My backpacking buddy is rehabbing a treadmill induced foot injury. We switched locations and cut back the miles for our mid-September trip.
I hope you get well soon.
By the way, my friend went to his podiatrist at the first sign of trouble.
Wayne
Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."