View Full Version : Just to be clear... One does not have to camp at or in a shelter on the AT, correct?
I am personally opposed to sheltering and I plan to do a little weekend hike over Labor day from Amicalola and as far North on the AT as I can get by Monday afternoon. It could be 10 miles the whole weekend or maybe 20... who knows. My preference is to just go until I can't then look for a nice level spot to pitch my tent a good bit off the trail. Is my preference illegal? Do I have to camp in a designated campsite if I practice LNT to the letter?
Slo-go'en
07-26-2016, 17:32
That area is pretty well trampled, camp anywhere you please. Going a good bit off the trail typically puts you on the side of a steep hill. Gaps are the preferred locations to camp and every one will have a well established site.
But be sure to stock up on water at the shelters, as that's about the only place your going to find it.
Depends on the state and the area. Some states its required you stay in designated areas. I think the entire state of Connecticut is one. Some areas, such as WMNF, has certain rules and restrictions for above treeline and wilderness areas.
Some sections and even entire states (Maryland) require camping in designated areas only. I don't think that applies to the section you're doing.
FreeGoldRush
07-26-2016, 17:41
I am personally opposed to sheltering and I plan to do a little weekend hike over Labor day from Amicalola and as far North on the AT as I can get by Monday afternoon. It could be 10 miles the whole weekend or maybe 20... who knows. My preference is to just go until I can't then look for a nice level spot to pitch my tent a good bit off the trail. Is my preference illegal? Do I have to camp in a designated campsite if I practice LNT to the letter?
My understanding is that you can do exactly that in the area you plan to be. But I'm no expert. :)
And I assume this holiday weekend is going to be like a stampede with people, huh? Sigh... I have to take what I can get when I can get it. Don't have any time off again until April of next year, so long weekends are all I can manage. Means I will have to stand in line to walk probably. :(
In the Smokys---you have to stay in a shelter unless you are a thru hiker...
but, sounds like you won't be going that far...
Let me amend my original thread with "before I get to the Smokies". I know the farther north I go and other states have their own rules. None of these things will be a factor over Labor Day weekend for us though. We'll be doing great to get 20 miles in. We are both intentionally, and due to lack of choice, going very slow and just out walking in the woods all leizurely.
FreeGoldRush
07-26-2016, 18:05
In the Smokys---you have to stay in a shelter unless you are a thru hiker...but, sounds like you won't be going that far...Unless they made a recent rule change, thru hikers in the GSMNP must stay in shelters. If full, they can tent only near the shelter.
Yeah....that's what I meant...
was typing in a hurry...
And I assume this holiday weekend is going to be like a stampede with people, huh? Sigh... I have to take what I can get when I can get it. Don't have any time off again until April of next year, so long weekends are all I can manage. Means I will have to stand in line to walk probably. :(
Start at first light. Or even a bit before. Few people are up and about at that time.
Have fun.
Wayne
Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."
Just right off the top of your heads... does anyone know how many AT miles are within the GSMNP? Even just a ball park?
Ballpark is about 74 or so....
Ok Thanks. I will get there eventually. Maybe by the time I do they will have changed the rules. I won't hold my breath. Just really hate the idea. Takes a lot away from the whole thing for me.
Don't worry---they will end up changing the rules again eventually...
too many people are not adhering to the current rules---which will lead to more rules being in place...
We would generally aim for a shelter for the night, but just to load up with water. Then we march on and find a camp, often up on a ridge. Always worked pretty well. The problem with random camping is that you might not have any water.
I agree. I will be going to every shelter on the way, just to camel up and see it, but then move on a ways to camp elsewhere. That's my plan.
MuddyWaters
07-26-2016, 20:31
Don't worry---they will end up changing the rules again eventually...
too many people are not adhering to the current rules---which will lead to more rules being in place...
Guaranteed not to be ones you will like more than the current.
Guaranteed not to be ones you will like more than the current.
exactly......
i didnt necessarily like the last change they did, but i saw it coming.....
people that were blatantly breaking various rules of the backcountry (too many people in a campsite, leaving food out, riding bikes to the campsites, staying more nights than allowed, etc etc etc) brought the new change to the system.........
and then complained about the change......
how can one blame the park for wanting to make the backcountry a better experience?
Starting at Amicalola heading north for a few days, you absolutely do not need to stay in or even near a shelter. I live here, and frequent the trails, so in this very limuted respect I am an expert. Practice LNT and you will be fine, and welcome.
MuddyWaters
07-26-2016, 21:07
how can one blame the park for wanting to make the backcountry a better experience?
Every NPS ranger Ive met, takes their task of protecting their park and wildlife very seriously.
I wouldnt have the patience with people they demonstrate.
Dan Roper
07-26-2016, 22:08
The AT heading north from Springer has an abundance of nice gaps where there are good camp sites. On my most recent section hike there in May 2015, we tented at Horse Gap (not ideal, as a gravel road is nearby) and at Lunsford Gap, a lovely place just past Woody Gap. But be sure to allow for lack of water at many gaps and camping places. On our hike, we carried a gallon water jug empty. We'd then fill it at a stream or spring and carry it the last mile or three to our camp site. That way we had plenty of water for dinner and breakfast. Another way we handle water is to stop at a shelter to fix a big dinner. Then we hike on another few miles to a gap. So, on day one, we hiked from Springer to Hawk Mountain, fixed a big dinner, filled our gallon jug with water, and then hiked on those several miles to Horse Gap.
I don't think the trail will be particularly busy in Georgia on Labor Day weekend, except at the major sites like Springer, Preaching Rock, Three Forks, and Blood Mountain.
daddytwosticks
07-27-2016, 07:19
Camp wherever you want. Just follow LNT especially around water sources. Check with FatMan about how the water is flowing at the shelters right before you go. There is ample water available along this path, though you may have to carry more than you are used to. Get a guidebook and be aware of those locations. Besides the shelters, there are several streams and creeks along this route. We would have to be in a world-ending drought for these sources to be dry. Have fun. :)
wren again
07-27-2016, 07:22
Just did this section. Unreliable springs were dry, and many reliable springs were also dry. Carry extra water and fill it when you find a source.
Tipi Walter
07-27-2016, 07:40
I am personally opposed to sheltering and I plan to do a little weekend hike over Labor day from Amicalola and as far North on the AT as I can get by Monday afternoon. It could be 10 miles the whole weekend or maybe 20... who knows. My preference is to just go until I can't then look for a nice level spot to pitch my tent a good bit off the trail. Is my preference illegal? Do I have to camp in a designated campsite if I practice LNT to the letter?
Is your preference illegal? I come from the school of the 1950s where we never asked if something was legal or not, we just strapped on our gear and took off. Asking stirs up the hornet's nest. Example: I've been backpacking and camping all thru the Southeast for the last 40 years and parked my car wherever and whenever I wanted and slogged and camped everywhere.
One time in a fit of some kind of demented hysteria I called the Ranger District and asked them a simple question about parking near the Tellico River in TN. What followed was a 10 point detailed rules and regulation lecture about pull offs and designated doodads and regulated criteria for trail explorations and vehicle windshield notes left of my whereabouts and other recommendations and all the rest. Phew, I hung up and bit my lip and stuck to my original plan.
Unless they made a recent rule change, thru hikers in the GSMNP must stay in shelters. If full, they can tent only near the shelter.
But anyone can blue blaze off the AT in the Park and camp at a designated site of which there are over a hundred. These sites do not have rat box shelters. And there are around 800 miles of other trails in the Smokies which connect to or are adjacent to the AT. Don't let the allure of the vaunted AT blind you into disregarding other intersecting trails.
Just did this section. Unreliable springs were dry, and many reliable springs were also dry. Carry extra water and fill it when you find a source.I can echo this. Pretty much anything that was named "creek" had water still, most "springs" were dry.
Water at Stover Creek Shelter was dry. Mile 2.8
Stream at mile 3.4 was dry.
Three Forks was the largest water source we saw by far. It had excellent flow.
Hawk Mountain Shelter had water, best tasting the whole trip IMO.
Trail angels had left water at Cooper Gap.
Justus Creek was flowing.
I don't recall if the stream at mi 14.9 was flowing or not.
Blackwell Creek at mi 15.5 was flowing slightly.
Gooch Mountain Shelter mi 15.8 had great water flowing from the pipe spring.
We didn't check the spring at mi 16.9 or 17.2.
mi 20.4 the spring was dry.
A guy we met went looking for the spring at Woody Gap but couldn't find it.
Lance Creek mi 24.3 was the next flowing water we found.
Woods Hole Shelter mi 28.2 was dry.
Slaughter Creek mi 28.5 was flowing but was pretty low.
Watered up at Neel Gap from the well.
Dry from here to Whitley Gap Shelter mi 38.4 is the turnoff, 1.2 miles to the shelter.
Low Gap Shelter mi 43.2 had water flowing.
I can keep going if needed, not sure how far you are pushing.
Tipi Walter
07-27-2016, 09:30
We're in a half-serious drought here in the mountains of TN/NC although it rained hard yesterday. I am planning an August trip soon and shooting to arrange my schedule to get me hiking along major creek systems. This solves two problems: Lack of water at springs and cooling refrigerated camps by water where I can submerge.
FreeGoldRush
07-27-2016, 09:53
But anyone can blue blaze off the AT in the Park and camp at a designated site of which there are over a hundred. These sites do not have rat box shelters. And there are around 800 miles of other trails in the Smokies which connect to or are adjacent to the AT. Don't let the allure of the vaunted AT blind you into disregarding other intersecting trails.
In the smokies you must have reservations at those campsites. Registering as a thru hiker does not give you permission to stay there. So this only works if you know what day you will be at each campsite AND you are not a thru hiker. Correct?
illabelle
07-27-2016, 10:08
But anyone can blue blaze off the AT in the Park and camp at a designated site of which there are over a hundred. These sites do not have rat box shelters. And there are around 800 miles of other trails in the Smokies which connect to or are adjacent to the AT. Don't let the allure of the vaunted AT blind you into disregarding other intersecting trails.
Current rules require reservations and permits for all campsites and shelters in the Park, even those not on the AT. Blue blazing is not an escape from red tape.
I can echo this. Pretty much anything that was named "creek" had water still, most "springs" were dry.
Water at Stover Creek Shelter was dry. Mile 2.8
Stream at mile 3.4 was dry.
Three Forks was the largest water source we saw by far. It had excellent flow.
Hawk Mountain Shelter had water, best tasting the whole trip IMO.
Trail angels had left water at Cooper Gap.
Justus Creek was flowing.
I don't recall if the stream at mi 14.9 was flowing or not.
Blackwell Creek at mi 15.5 was flowing slightly.
Gooch Mountain Shelter mi 15.8 had great water flowing from the pipe spring.
We didn't check the spring at mi 16.9 or 17.2.
mi 20.4 the spring was dry.
A guy we met went looking for the spring at Woody Gap but couldn't find it.
Lance Creek mi 24.3 was the next flowing water we found.
Woods Hole Shelter mi 28.2 was dry.
Slaughter Creek mi 28.5 was flowing but was pretty low.
Watered up at Neel Gap from the well.
Dry from here to Whitley Gap Shelter mi 38.4 is the turnoff, 1.2 miles to the shelter.
Low Gap Shelter mi 43.2 had water flowing.
I can keep going if needed, not sure how far you are pushing.
This is perfect. I will need this info the last week of August. We will never get as far as you provided. THANK YOU!!!
Farr Away
07-27-2016, 11:51
Current rules require reservations and permits for all campsites and shelters in the Park, even those not on the AT. Blue blazing is not an escape from red tape.
But the other campsites in the park, with the exception of Mount Le Conte, don't have shelters (so obviously no requirement that you stay in one). I think that was the point Tipi Walter was making.
-FA
I'll never get even close to GSMNP in this trip. That's yet to come, but I will be prepared for all the hullaballew when the times comes.
LittleRock
07-27-2016, 12:13
In the smokies you must have reservations at those campsites. Registering as a thru hiker does not give you permission to stay there. So this only works if you know what day you will be at each campsite AND you are not a thru hiker. Correct?
According to the NPS website:
To qualify for an AT Thru-Hiker Permit, you must begin and end your hike at least 50 miles outside Great Smoky Mountains National Park and only travel on the AT in the park.
Thru-Hikers may tent in the immediate area around shelters only if the shelter is full. Thru-hikers are required to stay in shelters when there is space available. Thru-Hikers must always give up bunk space in shelters to those with shelter reservations.
As with any rules, they're open to interpretation - When I hiked through GSMNP, I took "space available" to mean "no one else was staying in the shelter", and "immediate area around shelters" to mean "within 1/4 mile or so".
We are VSSHERs (Very Small Section Hikers) (I just made that up) Not thrus. Our life does not allow. We probably won't ever even qualify as LASHERS, as the most time we may ever get is about 10 days out.
Slo-go'en
07-27-2016, 13:01
As with any rules, they're open to interpretation - When I hiked through GSMNP, I took "space available" to mean "no one else was staying in the shelter", and "immediate area around shelters" to mean "within 1/4 mile or so".
Unfortunately, your "interpretation" of the rules would result in fines and expulsion from the park. Too bad you weren't caught.
FreeGoldRush
07-27-2016, 13:49
As with any rules, they're open to interpretation - When I hiked through GSMNP, I took "space available" to mean "no one else was staying in the shelter", and "immediate area around shelters" to mean "within 1/4 mile or so".
Thta actually sounds reasonable to me, but I'm guessing they like to interpret "space available" to mean there is room for you to snuggle up against Bubba. I have little experience, but have hiked to a few shelters and am guessing I'm more a tenter than a shelter person.
FreeGoldRush
07-27-2016, 13:54
Unfortunately, your "interpretation" of the rules would result in fines and expulsion from the park. Too bad you weren't caught.
You want a guy expelled from the park for setting up a tendt in the woods? Seriously?
You want a guy expelled from the park for setting up a tendt in the woods? Seriously?His point is that "guy setting up in the woods" is why they keep making more rules. People don't follow the ones in place because they want to do what they want.
See, that's one of the many issues I have with shelters. I do understand the reason they exist and I am not all "break every rule" bound or anything I just don't like them for myself personally. I like my tent. It's my room. I can change clothes in there and scratch and blow my nose in there. It's my personal space. When I sleep I need personal space, and if I don't have that, as is the case every day because I am married, then the person sharing my personal space must love me unconditionally and I him/her. It's just how it must be. I can't sleep right beside total strangers, even if they are the nicest people on planet earth. I can barely tolerate my husbands snoring if I don't get to sleep first at home. I can't imagine having to deal with several other people's and they having to deal with mine, which I am told is quite loud and obnoxious. Plus, the things we all do in our sleep.... No. Just no. Can't deal with that from strangers or face people the next morning not knowing what I did in my sleep the night before.
And all that with no mention of the mice, snakes, dirt and grime, and spiders. I like my tent. I may have to cheat and either skip the GSMNP or day hike it and sleep in campsites in our camper at night. Just can't fathom a forced sleeping with absolute strangers in the middle of the woods in a wooden box.
I considered trying to day hike it myself this fall. Inlaws are sending us to Gatlinburg for a week in the fall and figured it might be a good time to knockout the park.
See, that's one of the many issues I have with shelters. I do understand the reason they exist and I am not all "break every rule" bound or anything I just don't like them for myself personally. I like my tent. It's my room. I can change clothes in there and scratch and blow my nose in there. It's my personal space. When I sleep I need personal space, and if I don't have that, as is the case every day because I am married, then the person sharing my personal space must love me unconditionally and I him/her. It's just how it must be. I can't sleep right beside total strangers, even if they are the nicest people on planet earth. I can barely tolerate my husbands snoring if I don't get to sleep first at home. I can't imagine having to deal with several other people's and they having to deal with mine, which I am told is quite loud and obnoxious. Plus, the things we all do in our sleep.... No. Just no. Can't deal with that from strangers or face people the next morning not knowing what I did in my sleep the night before.
And all that with no mention of the mice, snakes, dirt and grime, and spiders. I like my tent. I may have to cheat and either skip the GSMNP or day hike it and sleep in campsites in our camper at night. Just can't fathom a forced sleeping with absolute strangers in the middle of the woods in a wooden box.
You are not alone. I met quite a few people who skipped the entire park because of the logistics involved. Just plan on a late arrival to the shelter and hope it's full so you can tent.
In the smokies you must have reservations at those campsites. Registering as a thru hiker does not give you permission to stay there. So this only works if you know what day you will be at each campsite AND you are not a thru hiker. Correct?
True. You must have a $4 reservation for each campsite in the smokies. If you're planning to hike the AT thru the smokies, there's nothing stopping you from also getting a permit for any campsites you'd like to stay at in addition to a thru-hiker permit. If a ranger asks you, just make sure you produce the correct permit and he'll be on his way. There's no way for them to enforce the requirements of the AT thru-hiker permit, so when you go just make sure you're starting at Albert Mountain and ending in Erwin, TN you're good to go. :P
great.............
so now we're back to encouraging people to break the rules in the Park.......
which, of course, will only lead to more rules in the Park.....
No worries here. I won't be breaking any rules intentionally, but I will likely day hike it instead of backpacking it. I just refuse to sleep in a shelter.
glenlawson
07-27-2016, 15:37
I'm assuming you are going to be able to call someone to come get you where ever you land. That is really the beauty of this section, and its curse, it is so accessible.
You have so many options that are not staying in a shelter. Let's say you start at Amicalola and after walking mostly uphill for 8 miles you decide to stop at Springer. Water is just below the shelter, but beyond the shelter there are several campsites where you don't actually realize you are in a campsite. From Springer down to Three Forks you can take the Benton MacKaye loop which has better camping locations. There's lots of good camping along the creeks at Three Forks and you can camp near the old church site on the way to Hawk Mtn. There is lots of camping around Hawk Mtn including some new camp site pads. There is also good water near here.
Camping is a little sparse between Hawk Mtn and Cooper Gap (so is water), but there are always places where you can tuck in off the trail a little ways. The next good spot is all along Justus Creek. There are the newer camping pads, you can go along the logging road next to Justus Creek or there are some nice out of the way places near the old AT path. There is good camping near Gooch Gap and water at both the shelter and across the road down to the right. Just in case you did not know, this is the same road that you crossed 2 or 3 days ago at the Springer parking lot.
If there's still gas in the tank, there are lots of good spaces between Gooch and Woody Gap and generally some water. If you happen to make it to the Woody-Neels section, more good camping. I would guess there will be very little bear activity up on the trail near Blood Mtn since all the bears will be down at Vogel filling up on picnic baskets.
I'm sure you have your return trip planned, but in case you aren't familiar, you get good cell coverage on most mountains and ridges. Nothing at all at Three Forks and probably nothing at Justus Creek. Thank the Army for that.
Good luck! I hope the heat will break just a little. Maybe down to the 80s.
glenlawson
07-27-2016, 15:44
In my previous post I meant to thank the Army for the coverage, not the lack of coverage. Geography always beats technology.
Great information glenlawson. Thanks!
I think we may only get to Cooper Gap by Monday afternoon. Maybe do Amicalola to the Nimblewill Gap Friday night, then to just past Springer shelter Saturday night, then to someplace between Three Forks and Hawk Mtn Sunday night, and on to Cooper Gap for pick up on Monday. Did I mention we are slow and in terrible shape? We don't want to even try more than about 5ish miles per day, unless we get some amazing rush of "I Feel FANTASTIC", which we are not counting on happening.
Bubbabuzz
07-27-2016, 18:48
Lnj,
Gambit McCrae told me about an app, called Guthooks Guide to the A.T. , prior to hiking from NC/through GA. This was pure gold for water sources as it's interactive. It idn't drain my battery due to being able to use it in airplane mode and helped us track our miles done/remaining.
I am no fan of sleeping in shelters either, and hope that regulations swing back towards using tents/tarps, as I don't care to bed with the mice & insects.
I hope y'all enjoy your hike.
I think we may only get to Cooper Gap by Monday afternoon. Maybe do Amicalola to the Nimblewill Gap Friday night, then to just past Springer shelter Saturday night, then to someplace between Three Forks and Hawk Mtn Sunday night, and on to Cooper Gap for pick up on Monday. Did I mention we are slow and in terrible shape? We don't want to even try more than about 5ish miles per day, unless we get some amazing rush of "I Feel FANTASTIC", which we are not counting on happening.
I'm getting that. Thanks!
JumpMaster Blaster
07-28-2016, 09:56
Just right off the top of your heads... does anyone know how many AT miles are within the GSMNP? Even just a ball park?
70.5 from boundary sign just north of the dam to the road at Davenport Gap to be exact.