What happens when gear gets damaged on opening?

[Lear]

ZPacks just emailed me that they are not responsible for damage that occurs when a product they ship is opened. I cut a thin hole through the stuff sac while opening the end of a box that was thin and stuffed tight with a new pack inside the sac. I sent them a photo and asked them if they would send a new stuff sac for the brand new not cheap fiber sleeping bag. ZPacks stuff isn't cheap, but their packaging and customer satisfaction sure is.

I've been opening packages for years without complication. There are packaging engineers. Besides pointing out that packages can be insured, that many packages come with things inside the box to protect the shipped item, I also mentioned to the contact at ZPacks that I tought Moosejaw would probably make sure I was completely satisfied.

ZPack's first response was automated and said they would take a few days to get back to me. Now they say they will send me repair tape for the sac.

What do you think?

[egilbe]

You should be happy they are sending you repair tape.

[Tipi Walter]

This reminds me of ordering a pair of Asolo Fugitive hiking boots from Amazon last week and the company sent me the boots in a box reading Size 10 Wide. Inside the box were a pair of Size 11 Wide. Boats! I emailed the company and told them maybe they should check not only the box label but what's inside the box before shipping. Amazon was cool and UPS came to the house to pick up the package for a refund and I ordered the boots from the Asolo website instead.

Regarding Lear's plight, well, there's no way I'd expect a product replacement for slicing a product myself by carelessly opening the box. A pure case of User error.

[egilbe]

When I recieved my EE Accomplice in the mail, the box was bulging. I opened the packing tape with a spoon. No rips. Seemed like common sense to me.

[Flounder940]

I see no issue with it. It was admittedly your fault. The cuben fiber repair tape will make it as good as new.

[Christoph]

there's no way I'd expect a product replacement for slicing a product myself by carelessly opening the box. A pure case of User error.

Plus one on this. In no way should the company be liable since you said you were the one who damaged it.

[Water Rat]

I have ordered from Zpacks and have not had issues.

I am curious about something - Why would Zpacks need to insure packages in the event their customers wreck the product when they open the box? The vendor sent the product, the product arrived safe, and now it is in the customer's hands. At that point it becomes your responsibility.

Had the item been damaged during shipping or the wrong item been sent, I have no doubt Zpacks would have made things right.

[Malto]

I see no issue with it. It was admittedly your fault. The cuben fiber repair tape will make it as good as new.

Yup............

[cneill13]

My wife did the same thing. But it was a box for an inflatable bed!

Doh. I'll never let her live that one down.

Carl

[SouthMark]

Plus one on this. In no way should the company be liable since you said you were the one who damaged it.

Plus two...

[Gambit McCrae]

"Man oh Man I just got in my new Cuben Fiber products form Zpacks, I am so excited!!...Uh oh I say to myself, this box looks FULL, I better take extra precaution in opening it, (Even if it is NOT lookin like an overly full box), this box has expensive STUFF in it...Better take my time opening it!

That would be like ordering a new Corvette, running it into the house backing it off the trailer, calling Chevrolet and saying "hey send me a new vette", the trailer you sent was too big for my driveway!

[Lear]

I don't think I will start opening all boxes with a spoon.

Like I say plenty of previous experience without incident.

[Gambit McCrae]

I don't think I will start opening all boxes with a spoon.

Like I say plenty of previous experience without incident.

A spoon full of opening, helps the damage, go down :)

[Puddlefish]

I've seen boxes that had a warning, "Do not cut to open" on them, and considered them kind of insulting like the "Do not use hairdryer in water" warnings.

[Lear]

If you bought a new Vette they would never ask you to drive it off the truck. They would unpack it themselves, then let you look it over completely and then after you had inspected it, they would hand you the keys. And it would be insured during it's transport from the factory to the dealer.

[Lear]

Here are two direct quotes off the ZPACKS website:


If you are not completely satisfied you are welcome to send it back for an exchange or a full refund.

The only exception to our return policy is items which are specially made.



I emailed them that I was not completely satisfied with the way the product was packaged, and the sac wasn't specially made.

[Just Bill]

If you bought a new Vette they would never ask you to drive it off the truck. They would unpack it themselves, then let you look it over completely and then after you had inspected it, they would hand you the keys. And it would be insured during it's transport from the factory to the dealer.

In theory- you got some sorta point and the customer is always right.

In practice- Zpacks is a little guy who would blow half his net profit doing anything further attempting to make up fer yer mistake.
FYI- The package was delivered- USPS doesn't pay claims out unless the package is lost- and it is not easy or even guaranteed they get paid on a claim- which can take several hours to file.

In reality- http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/tape.shtml You're getting a product for free with free shipping.

Egible said it best-


You should be happy they are sending you repair tape.

[Gambit McCrae]

Your right, let me put my point a little more bluntly, the point you are trying to make is dumb. Its your fault the product got damaged so deal with it. Your lucky they are sending you tape. Even if it were insured for $1000 the insurance is up to the point of it being successfully delivered, not successfully unpackaged by the buyer.


Here are two direct quotes off the ZPACKS website:
If you are not completely satisfied you are welcome to send it back for an exchange or a full refund.
The only exception to our return policy is items which are specially made.
I emailed them that I was not completely satisfied with the way the product was packaged, and the sac wasn't specially made.

35655

And then..
35657


YOU DAMAGED THE PRODUCT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT IS WHY YOU DONT LIKE IT BECAUSE YOU TORE IT UP!!!!!!!


And for good trolling measure, "Helen Keller could have opened that box better then you did".

[TNhiker]

If you bought a new Vette they would never ask you to drive it off the truck. They would unpack it themselves, then let you look it over completely and then after you had inspected it, they would hand you the keys. And it would be insured during it's transport from the factory to the dealer.




Then you should have bought the tent in person...

But, instead, you had it shipped to you where YOU did the damage...

and now you're whining in here about it and not convincing anyone that they should send you something new....

suck it up and learn from your mistake...

[Greenlight]

Here's the more applicable scenario. They drove it off the truck, inspected it and handed you the keys. You drove it home, went to park it in the garage, and took out a side mirror with the door frame. Now you're asking for a new side mirror because they didn't teach you how to park before you left.


If you bought a new Vette they would never ask you to drive it off the truck. They would unpack it themselves, then let you look it over completely and then after you had inspected it, they would hand you the keys. And it would be insured during it's transport from the factory to the dealer.

[Hikingjim]

you got a free lesson in the fragility of UL equipment if handled improperly. And you have some free tape to show for it

[left52side]

I agree with most other reply's on this thread , that if all companies were responsible for user error then there would be alot more bankrupt companies or prices would be so hign that only rich folks could afford there products.
I myself have found that matt and joe and redbeard and the rest of the gang are all more than helpful in accommodating there customers and think there customer service ranks pretty high up there on the positive side as well as the products they make .
I would consider it A kind jester of them even mailing you cuben tape for the repair they are not liable for in the first place.

[Flounder940]

Here are two direct quotes off the ZPACKS website:


If you are not completely satisfied you are welcome to send it back for an exchange or a full refund.

The only exception to our return policy is items which are specially made.



I emailed them that I was not completely satisfied with the way the product was packaged, and the sac wasn't specially made.

The product arrived perfectly fine and was packaged well enough that it did not get damaged in transit. IT WAS YOUR FAULT! Let it go and move on. You ever wonder why there are warning messages on coffee cups stating that "contents may be hot" ? If you don't....find a mirror in the house, stare into it and contemplate.

[MuddyWaters]

Out of curiosity, how did you open package?
How long of a knife did you use?

To open a box , all you do is cut visible tape at end of a box, where flap protects contents.
You dont jam a blade inside.

yeah, if its a book you grab a kitchen knife and shove it in and cut the tape. Not with fragile contents.

[SkeeterPee]

While I generally agree you are responsible. A vendor of expensive gear should package it so a normal person would not cut the gear. I am thinking you slit the tape along the side and along the top. Now if you used a box cutter and just cut all around the box then you have no one else to blame.

But if cut normally, then the vendor could have adequate cardboard flaps to completely cover the items, and also have stuffing on top of the items that would further protect the items. I don't recall how well their box was made for the one time I bought from them. It is surprising so many have said their boxes were overfull. That kind of indicates they are not taking adequate efforts to size the box and protect the contents.

[Tipi Walter]

While I generally agree you are responsible. A vendor of expensive gear should package it so a normal person would not cut the gear. I am thinking you slit the tape along the side and along the top. Now if you used a box cutter and just cut all around the box then you have no one else to blame.

But if cut normally, then the vendor could have adequate cardboard flaps to completely cover the items, and also have stuffing on top of the items that would further protect the items. I don't recall how well their box was made for the one time I bought from them. It is surprising so many have said their boxes were overfull. That kind of indicates they are not taking adequate efforts to size the box and protect the contents.

Maybe next time he'll take a box cutter to open up a package to a $700 down bag. Oops. I use a car key to run along the tape seam. I'm not sure the OP ever told us what he used, probably too embarrassed. But to open up a box of gear with a knife or razor blade is just not thinking clearly.

http://www.labelident.eu/images/product_images/info_images/20658_0_C1741097_und_CPP097WE.jpg

[MuddyWaters]

While I generally agree you are responsible. A vendor of expensive gear should package it so a normal person would not cut the gear. I am thinking you slit the tape along the side and along the top. Now if you used a box cutter and just cut all around the box then you have no one else to blame.



I think the number of recipients doing this is likely fairly low,
"Normal" is often defined as within two standard deviations of the mean in a normal distribution. Basically, 96% of people or so.

[Redrowen]

Here are two direct quotes off the ZPACKS website:

If you are not completely satisfied you are welcome to send it back for an exchange or a full refund.

The only exception to our return policy is items which are specially made.

I emailed them that I was not completely satisfied with the way the product was packaged, and the sac wasn't specially made.

I doubt you would have gave the package a second thought if you didn't cut into the stuff sac. Looks like you're tying to have the company pay for your negligence. You can be the box whisperer, doesn't mean you're not going to have an accident once in a while.

[TNhiker]

You can be the box whisperer



im been known to whisper a few boxes on a wild friday night................

[Offshore]

Maybe next time he'll take a box cutter to open up a package to a $700 down bag. Oops. I use a car key to run along the tape seam.

But my last two cars didn't come with keys...

[saltysack]

I'm assuming it's the stuff sack for the sleeping bag? Do you actually use it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StealthHikerBoy]

Zpacks is getting to be an awkward size. Really big for a cottage supplier, but not big enough to have in place some standard customer service systems. I've had mixed experiences with them. It can take them forever to get back to you via email, there is no way to call them, and you never know if you'll be inquiring when the one guy who knows the answer is out hiking. But, I have found that the wait and frustration is always worth it, as they have pretty much the best gear in the business. I don't think it is any bad intent on their part ... but it is true that their stuff is expensive so you tend to expect a certain level of service.

While I agree that this issue is the original poster's mistake, how great would it have been if Zpacks had sent him a new item? He probably would have posted here about how great Zpacks customer service is and we'd all be impressed.

So, yeah, Zpacks had no obligation to make him happy, but how great would it have been for them if they did?

[SWODaddy]

If you bought a new Vette they would never ask you to drive it off the truck. They would unpack it themselves, then let you look it over completely and then after you had inspected it, they would hand you the keys. And it would be insured during it's transport from the factory to the dealer.

No, the appropriate analogy would be you damaging your new vette driving it off the lot recklessly and then expecting the dealer to pay for the bodywork. You purchased a product and then damaged it through negligence; take responsibility for it.

[Tipi Walter]

No, the appropriate analogy would be you damaging your new vette driving it off the lot recklessly and then expecting the dealer to pay for the bodywork. You purchased a product and then damaged it through negligence; take responsibility for it.

Or this: They sell you the Vette and give you the car keys. You also have a crowbar handy. Instead of using the keys to open the locked door, you decide to pry it open with the crowbar. Oops. And then you run screaming to a salesman demanding to be compensated.

[Ktaadn]

This is the best analogy I've seen in a while. Mind if I borrow the crowbar bit?

[Engine]

Or this: They sell you the Vette and give you the car keys. You also have a crowbar handy. Instead of using the keys to open the locked door, you decide to pry it open with the crowbar. Oops. And then you run screaming to a salesman demanding to be compensated.

Well...in defense of the proud new Corvette owner, was there a warning label on the door stating the use of a crowbar could cause damage not covered by the manufacturer?

[Tipi Walter]

Well...in defense of the proud new Corvette owner, was there a warning label on the door stating the use of a crowbar could cause damage not covered by the manufacturer?

Sadly, no. The only label was one that warned about using a screwdriver. So in fact the guy with the crowbar should sue.

[Gambit McCrae]

Havent heard from the Ol;' OP in a bit, guess they got the hint...this belongs in the humor thread

[Traffic Jam]

Havent heard from the Ol;' OP in a bit, guess they got the hint...this belongs in the humor thread

Not surprising, ya'll have a way of running people off. Doesn't matter if the OP is right or wrong...y'all could have been more respectful.

[Tipi Walter]

Not surprising, ya'll have a way of running people off. Doesn't matter if the OP is right or wrong...y'all could have been more respectful.

But if the OP is wrong in our opinion, can we not use sarcasm to make our points? Disrespect happens with personal attacks---none of that here.

[Traffic Jam]

But if the OP is wrong in our opinion, can we not use sarcasm to make our points.

No. Not with new members who aren't used to the culture of WB.

[Secondmouse]

Here are two direct quotes off the ZPACKS website:


If you are not completely satisfied you are welcome to send it back for an exchange or a full refund.

The only exception to our return policy is items which are specially made.



I emailed them that I was not completely satisfied with the way the product was packaged, and the sac wasn't specially made.

you're a millennial aren't you? were you ever told you're a special snow flake?..

[Tipi Walter]

you're a millennial aren't you? were you ever told you're a special snow flake?..

Be very careful, you're verging on the S word.

[Gambit McCrae]

Whats the S word

[Tipi Walter]

Whats the S word

See post 41.

[egilbe]

He did ask what we thought.

[Greenlight]

I'm not uncomfortable with anything that was posted in reply to the original post. The OP was asking for input over an incident where he thought he was in the right. He was told quite tactfully but with a healthy dose of wit that he, in fact, was in the wrong. Nobody mollycoddled me when I came in here for the first time earlier this year. Nobody should expect that.


Not surprising, ya'll have a way of running people off. Doesn't matter if the OP is right or wrong...y'all could have been more respectful.

[HooKooDooKu]

Here are two direct quotes off the ZPACKS website:

If you are not completely satisfied you are welcome to send it back for an exchange or a full refund.

The only exception to our return policy is items which are specially made.


I emailed them that I was not completely satisfied with the way the product was packaged, and the sac wasn't specially made.
I believe that it is somewhat implied that such a guarantee assume the product is still in resale able condition and hasn't been damaged by the user.

Change the situation a little bit...

You open the package, check out the sleeping bag, and it fits a little too tight for your comfort, so you decide to return it under the satisfaction policy. But while you're out of the room trying to fill out a return slip, you don't close the door tight behind you, your dog gets into the room, and chews a hole in the sleeping bag.

Can you still return the sleeping bag under the satisfaction policy?

I believe the answer most people would give is "No"... it sort of falls under that "you break it, you buy it" type of policies.


Having said that, I see nothing wrong with the idea of contacting a company with a complaint that you believe their packaging contributed to the goods getting damaged in the normal process of opening the package. Sounds like you're both somewhat at fault... with the majority of posters here in the form believing that you were mostly at fault.

So while it would have been nice if the company would have sent a full replacement, sounds like they have been more than fair in agreeing to send repair tape.

[kayak karl]

Does ANYONE want to take responsibility for their own actions anymore???? Your fault.... live with it!

[Tipi Walter]

Having said that, I see nothing wrong with the idea of contacting a company with a complaint that you believe their packaging contributed to the goods getting damaged in the normal process of opening the package.

So while it would have been nice if the company would have sent a full replacement, sounds like they have been more than fair in agreeing to send repair tape.

Their packaging contributed to the goods getting damaged? No, it sounds like the packaging was perfect unless the stuff sack was partially out of the box upon arrival. Lear himself contributed to the goods getting damaged.


Does ANYONE want to take responsibility for their own actions anymore???? Your fault.... live with it!

In agreeable agreement. As mentioned, just be glad it wasn't a $700 down bag or a $600 Hilleberg tent.

[Casey & Gina]

Havent heard from the Ol;' OP in a bit, guess they got the hint...this belongs in the humor thread

Indeed, I got a good laugh out of it!

[Hosh]

Zpacks is getting to be an awkward size. Really big for a cottage supplier, but not big enough to have in place some standard customer service systems. I've had mixed experiences with them. It can take them forever to get back to you via email, there is no way to call them, and you never know if you'll be inquiring when the one guy who knows the answer is out hiking. But, I have found that the wait and frustration is always worth it, as they have pretty much the best gear in the business. I don't think it is any bad intent on their part ... but it is true that their stuff is expensive so you tend to expect a certain level of service.

While I agree that this issue is the original poster's mistake, how great would it have been if Zpacks had sent him a new item? He probably would have posted here about how great Zpacks customer service is and we'd all be impressed.

So, yeah, Zpacks had no obligation to make him happy, but how great would it have been for them if they did?

I agree, there's always a awkward transition from founder to a professional management team as a company grows and expands. Zpacks has great stuff, expensive, but very functional and robust in many environments. They have set new standards for high performance, ultra light equipment. Their response to the OP's issue is reasonable in my eyes.

As an aside, Big Agnes ships their stuff with a separate piece of cardboard underneath the box seam in case someone uses a box knife. Takes a little extra labor, but mitigates Customer frustration.

FWIW, I was pricing the new Corvettes, pretty easy to get north of $120K, so not sure it's a good analogy.

[gracebowen]

Gotta kinda agree with traffic jam. While it may not be intentional some replies come off as mean and unhelpful. Im not just referring to this thread. IMHO you have to have a pretty thick skin to post on WB.

There is good advice here for sure but sometimes its hard wading through sarcastic or unhelpful replies.

I leave many threads unstarted and many replies unmade. I generally prefer to lurk.

In this threads defence the op damaged the item. Not the company's fault. If I were unpacking something that expensive id be very careful. Also regarding insurance if I understand correctly its up to the buyer to purchase insurance. Even then since he damagec the item....

[gracebowen]

And im sure someone will call out my spelling. Typing on a phone screen is not easy. I see I tapped the c instead of the d.

[HooKooDooKu]

Their packaging contributed to the goods getting damaged? No, it sounds like the packaging was perfect unless the stuff sack was partially out of the box upon arrival. Lear himself contributed to the goods getting damaged.
I'm not saying it was completely the manufacturer's fault. As Hosh points out, Big Agnes accounts for the fact that a lot of people open boxes with a knife and they add a little extra protection to avoid situations such as the OP has gotten himself into. But at the same time, the OP should have been more careful than it sounds like he was... so they were both partially at fault, with most of the fault being on the OP, hence the reason why I think the manufacturer's response was very reasonable.

[Engine]

...FWIW, I was pricing the new Corvettes, pretty easy to get north of $120K, so not sure it's a good analogy.

Everything is relative. I have an uncle for whom a $120,000 Corvette would probably have about the same budgetary impact as my purchase of a Zpacks product. :-?

[MuddyWaters]

Everything is relative. I have an uncle for whom a $120,000 Corvette would probably have about the same budgetary impact as my purchase of a Zpacks product. :-?


Ive seen pickup truck stickers over $80,000 lately.

i personally, will never buy another new vehicle.(last one I bought was 1995) Not because I cant afford it, I easily can. But because Im not stupid enough to. I wont do it on principle.

Theres fools without a pot to pee in, buying $1000 adidas tennis shoes today.

[egilbe]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

[rocketsocks]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreudeway to throw of other log on the fire...I was gettin' cold. :D

[Redrowen]

I'm not saying it was completely the manufacturer's fault. As Hosh points out, Big Agnes accounts for the fact that a lot of people open boxes with a knife and they add a little extra protection to avoid situations such as the OP has gotten himself into. But at the same time, the OP should have been more careful than it sounds like he was... so they were both partially at fault, with most of the fault being on the OP, hence the reason why I think the manufacturer's response was very reasonable.

The company was not "partially at fault" for the customer's poor decision to us a sharp object to open a box containing an item vulnerable to sharp objects. It's common sense, but there is a reason why we see more and more "Don't try this at home" disclaimers on television these days.

[rocketsocks]

The company was not "partially at fault" for the customer's poor decision to us a sharp object to open a box containing an item vulnerable to sharp objects. It's common sense, but there is a reason why we see more and more "Don't try this at home" disclaimers on television these days.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0cmqwbZa6_w

[rocketsocks]

If I buy an ice cream cone and walk outside, take a lick and it falls off onto the ground, do I go back in the store and say I dropped and can I have another for free. Just becuase this may have happened as a kid, it only happened because you were a kid. I think this is just one of those times when we have to say to ourselves.

"well, I won't do that again"
been there and done it myself with stuff, rip into a package only to break it partly cause it's fasten up like Fort Knox...still my fault. Stuff happens!

[swisscross]

If anything this thread has reminded me to be more careful opening packages AND I will never be able to afford a Corvette.

I actually had a stuff sack replaced by Zpacks.
The snap buckle on my food blast broke. I emailed them on either having it repaired or purchasing a new buckle and repair it myself. Both options at my cost.

Their response email went into my junk folder and I did not notice it (over a week later). I only checked the junk folder because one day there was a package in my chair at work.

I email them back and explained that I was not asking for a replacement and I wanted to pay for the new bag.
I never suggested it was their fault and I fully accepted responsibility.
They refused my offer to pay.

As as my mother use to say, "you draw more bees with honey than vinegar".

[Hosh]

If anything this thread has reminded me to be more careful opening packages AND I will never be able to afford a Corvette.

I actually had a stuff sack replaced by Zpacks.
The snap buckle on my food blast broke. I emailed them on either having it repaired or purchasing a new buckle and repair it myself. Both options at my cost.

Their response email went into my junk folder and I did not notice it (over a week later). I only checked the junk folder because one day there was a package in my chair at work.

I email them back and explained that I was not asking for a replacement and I wanted to pay for the new bag.
I never suggested it was their fault and I fully accepted responsibility.
They refused my offer to pay.

As as my mother use to say, "you draw more bees with honey than vinegar".

So true, I have had similar experiences with Zpacks. They know their Customer base is limited and in general pretty well connected. Word of mouth has always been very effective as input for purchase decisions. In an internet, 24/7, environment, negative travels fast.

They and others also have enormous gross margins to work with and keeping people happy is just another line item on a budget.

[Engine]

Not insinuating anything, but based on the latest few posts it appears that as long as your attitude with Zpacks is positive, you will receive a positive response...

[soumodeler]

I ordered a new pack and a new quilt from ZPacks earlier this year and they both arrived in the same box. ZPacks sends packs in 2 large flat rate boxes taped together to form one long, thin box, perfect for one of their packs. My quilt was placed inside the stuff sack, inside the pack, so no chance of me cutting it there, but the OP may have received his differently. There is next to no chance of cutting anything inside the package if you cut the tape at one end, pull the flaps open, and pull everything out.

[Lnj]

Ive seen pickup truck stickers over $80,000 lately.

i personally, will never buy another new vehicle.(last one I bought was 1995) Not because I cant afford it, I easily can. But because Im not stupid enough to. I wont do it on principle.

Theres fools without a pot to pee in, Or a window to throw it out of,
buying $1000 adidas tennis shoes today.

Sorry... I just had to. Haven't heard that one in a good while.

[MuddyWaters]

If I buy an ice cream cone and walk outside, take a lick and it falls off onto the ground, do I go back in the store and say I dropped and can I have another for free. Just becuase this may have happened as a kid, it only happened because you were a kid. I think this is just one of those times when we have to say to ourselves.

"well, I won't do that again"
been there and done it myself with stuff, rip into a package only to break it partly cause it's fasten up like Fort Knox...still my fault. Stuff happens!


Exactly

Theres "goodwill' , which is basically just others being nice.

Then theres obligations.

When you expect, or demand, goodwill..you are spoiled

[Lear]

While I generally agree you are responsible. A vendor of expensive gear should package it so a normal person would not cut the gear. I am thinking you slit the tape along the side and along the top. Now if you used a box cutter and just cut all around the box then you have no one else to blame.

But if cut normally, then the vendor could have adequate cardboard flaps to completely cover the items, and also have stuffing on top of the items that would further protect the items. I don't recall how well their box was made for the one time I bought from them. It is surprising so many have said their boxes were overfull. That kind of indicates they are not taking adequate efforts to size the box and protect the contents.


ZPACKS didn't use any box of their own prior to shipping. ZPACKS stuffed what they were shipping into a UPS box. If I had sliced deeply it would have cut through the actual sleeping bag too. I didn't slice the sleeping bag, I made a three inch slit in the stuff sac that was flush against the UPS box.

[egilbe]

Lesson learned, correct? Some people spend a lot more money to get an education.

[Lear]

the stuff sac is made for the sleeping bag

[Lear]

it's nice to know someone is sensing my disappointment

ZPACKS actually makes the claim on their website that they will accept returns for any customer that is not "completely satisfied." It isn't cheap and on other occasions when I have bought expensive stuff online they package their product in a container separate from the shipping container for a variety of reason.

[egilbe]

ZPACKS didn't use any box of their own prior to shipping. ZPACKS stuffed what they were shipping into a UPS box. If I had sliced deeply it would have cut through the actual sleeping bag too. I didn't slice the sleeping bag, I made a three inch slit in the stuff sac that was flush against the UPS box.

I still see nothing that absolves you of all responsibility for your actions.

[TNhiker]

it's nice to know someone is sensing my disappointment



i dont think the majority of us are sensing your disappointment at all.......


maybe the disappointment of owning up to your own mistakes maybe....

[egilbe]

maybe the disappointment of owning up to your own mistakes maybe....


the first time is always the hardest...

[Engine]

...ZPACKS actually makes the claim on their website that they will accept returns for any customer that is not "completely satisfied."...

What part of their product were you not completely satisfied with? Oh, that's right, the part YOU damaged...do you really expect them to replace something that arrived in your hands undamaged? This is the part of your argument that everyone is having trouble with. You cannot reasonably expect a vendor to replace something which you damaged through carelessness. Had the stuff sack been somehow faulty, or not what was ordered, then of course you would be correct in stating it should be replaced.

I comes down to ownership. You need to own the act which created the problem.


edit: I did not read the above posts as I was typing my message...lots of agreement here.

[egilbe]

OP, Im getting the sense that hiking may not be for you. Imagine the dissapointment you ate going to feel when that bear, raccoon, squirrel or mice eats or defecates in your food bag. How terrible its going to be when it rains for days on end, or when you've hiked for 10, 15 or 20 miles and find the tent sites and shelters all taken up already. What are you going to do when its sunny and hot and all the water sources are dry? When the mountains wont bow down to you so your climb isn't so strenuous?

[Five Tango]

To be perfectly honest,sounds like the box was too small for the contents if reasonable care was used in opening it and contents were damaged.How else you gonna open a box without using some sort of sharp edge to open it?I would be curious to know how far the knife went into the box though..............

[TNhiker]

How else you gonna open a box without using some sort of sharp edge to open it?



rip the tape maybe? or rather, peel the tape back?

[Lear]

Final assessment. I love having people's input. Plenty of "friend," i ask about this will all side with me. Obviously no one in this group is trying to kiss up to me. I love free speech.

None of the posters were able to make serious unbiased comment about the implied guarantee that ZPacks makes on their website promising COMPLETE SATISFACTION.

When I told ZPacks I was disappointed I got another email saying they were too busy to reply.

I don't think their customer service is top notch.

Everyone assumes I should know about the qualities of Cuban fiber, not sure why. I have never touched the stuff.

I didn't use a crowbar to open the box, I doubt anyone would use a spoon, and I wasn't reckless. I have opened boxes that had been mailed to me for most of my life without any previous incidents. If ZPacks was concerned about their reputation they would have sent a new stuff sac.

I bought some Salomon trail runners for the AT last fall. Wore them five times and hiked about 100 miles. Then on wet blue stone I almost fell twice. How well would they work then on wet stone going downhill with a pack on my back. REI told me when I bought them I could return them anytime for any reason. So I took them back and they gave me a full refund because that is their stated policy. When I returned them they insisted that the expensive Salomon trail runners were The Best Shoes for the AT. The posters here remind me of those knowledgeable clerks but ZPacks doesn't have as generous a return policy as REI.

I will most likely use the tape they send to keep landfills clear and am happy everyone had a topic to rant on. Thanks all.

[Lear]

I'm not asking for a whole new sleeping bag and I'm damn happy that didn't get damaged on opening too, just the stuff sac. Less than 10% of the total order.

And yes, I would have definitely posted they had done a good turn if they had. REI did a GREAT turn letting me return those slippery Salomons.

[TNhiker]

I love having people's input.



you did ask for it...............after all, this is a discussion board....




Plenty of "friend," i ask about this will all side with me.


hmmmmmmmmmm...................i better leave this one alone......




I don't think their customer service is top notch.


they probably are for legitimate reasons, unlike yours......

[Offshore]

I will most likely use the tape they send to keep landfills clear and am happy everyone had a topic to rant on. Thanks all.

There seem to be a lot of Zpacks fanboys here in whose eyes Zpacks can do no wrong. Overstuffing an easily-damaged item in an undersized box when it could reasonably be assumed that a customer would use a sharp object to open the box (you know, the whole boxcutter idea...) is pretty lame. REI or LL Bean would handle this as a packing error and make good on it (knowing how to pack a shipment and offering good customer service probably contributed to them getting so big). This topic has been beaten to death, but I do wonder if your offending knife would be able to cut through all the self-righteousness in the finger wagging replies in this thread.

[SouthMark]

I have been a Zpacks customer ever since thay started up. I have one of her original sil packs, the Z-1. Joe and crew have never been anything but supper to me over the years. I for one would never have had the gall to contact them and expect them to replace an item that I damaged. I would have been upset but at myself, not them but of course I did not grow up in a time when everybody got a trophy.

[MuddyWaters]

OP, Im getting the sense that hiking may not be for you. Imagine the dissapointment you ate going to feel when that bear, raccoon, squirrel or mice eats or defecates in your food bag. How terrible its going to be when it rains for days on end, or when you've hiked for 10, 15 or 20 miles and find the tent sites and shelters all taken up already. What are you going to do when its sunny and hot and all the water sources are dry? When the mountains wont bow down to you so your climb isn't so strenuous?

Like the thruhiker that purchased a weeks food from mountain crossings.

When a bear got it the first night, he went back to mountain crossings expecting them to replace it. True story. Went away mad that they wouldnt.

[egilbe]

There seem to be a lot of Zpacks fanboys here in whose eyes Zpacks can do no wrong. Overstuffing an easily-damaged item in an undersized box when it could reasonably be assumed that a customer would use a sharp object to open the box (you know, the whole boxcutter idea...) is pretty lame. REI or LL Bean would handle this as a packing error and make good on it (knowing how to pack a shipment and offering good customer service probably contributed to them getting so big). This topic has been beaten to death, but I do wonder if your offending knife would be able to cut through all the self-righteousness in the finger wagging replies in this thread.

No finger-wagging self righteousness. Just amused amazement that he never thought of the repercussions of stabbing a box with a knife that contained a fragile bit of expensive gear. Its akin to smashing some fine crystal on the floor and blaming the manufacturer for the crystal smashing. What did the OP expect was going to happen? That the packaging was going to be idiot proof?

[clusterone]

I was not going to post as surely by now you have heard/read it many times by now... However, we are many pages of posts in and amazingly you still seem to think the problem is with ZPacks... SO HERE IT COMES AGAIN -- At some point you need to take responsibility for your action(s). Being "satisfied" and you cutting a hole in the gear are two separate things. Per my experience- Zpacks support has been amazing, and so has the ArcHaul pack. The fact that they are sending you a patch should be more than enough for you to boast about the support received. Thread title should be --- I F****D up, but ZPacks to the rescue. THANKS ZPACKS!

[Hosh]

There seem to be a lot of Zpacks fanboys here in whose eyes Zpacks can do no wrong. Overstuffing an easily-damaged item in an undersized box when it could reasonably be assumed that a customer would use a sharp object to open the box (you know, the whole boxcutter idea...) is pretty lame. REI or LL Bean would handle this as a packing error and make good on it (knowing how to pack a shipment and offering good customer service probably contributed to them getting so big). This topic has been beaten to death, but I do wonder if your offending knife would be able to cut through all the self-righteousness in the finger wagging replies in this thread.


Pretty sure other tent stakes, REI and LL Bean don't sell anything close to the performance/weight standards of Zpacks.

BTW, REI changed their Customer Sat policies a couple years ago. It was/is one of the most abused guarantees in the industry, maybe on the planet. I saw people with grocery carts full of what looked homeless people's gear in line to be returned, outrageous. They trimmed a life time guarantee to 1 year since it was so abused.

[TNhiker]

It was/is one of the most abused guarantees in the industry, maybe on the planet.


LL bean would surpass that i think..

i heard an NPR story on This American Life about LL bean a few weeks ago where the story was on their return policy and how liberal it is...

one guy returned a shirt he had been wearing for 45 years and it wore out.............yup, he got a new one....

but Z packs as a company in whole cannot be compared to LL Bean...

[Casey & Gina]

None of the posters were able to make serious unbiased comment about the implied guarantee that ZPacks makes on their website promising COMPLETE SATISFACTION.

I think plenty did - guaranteeing "complete satisfaction" has nothing to do with your level of satisfaction with the effect of your own damage to the product. It's your fault, period. It's a sucky mistake to have made, but it is what it is, accept, repair, and move on.


I don't think their customer service is top notch.

Then perhaps you won't buy their products any more, and will seek out companies happy to take a loss when you make a mistake (some will, like REI as you mentioned - most won't). Hope you like their selection cause specialty stuff like ZPacks won't be found there, even on their website.


I didn't use a crowbar to open the box, I doubt anyone would use a spoon, and I wasn't reckless. I have opened boxes that had been mailed to me for most of my life without any previous incidents. If ZPacks was concerned about their reputation they would have sent a new stuff sac.

I have never opened a box with a knife or sharp edge unless the tape has been exceedingly difficult to simply remove. When doing so, I am very careful to only allow the edge of the knife to barely penetrate the tape, not down through the thickness of cardboard under it. Usually I just peel the tape off. Seems pretty elementary to me.

I don't personally see any damage to ZPacks' reputation being done here. I don't own any of their gear, but this thread makes me kind of want to order something.


I bought some Salomon trail runners for the AT last fall. Wore them five times and hiked about 100 miles. Then on wet blue stone I almost fell twice. How well would they work then on wet stone going downhill with a pack on my back. REI told me when I bought them I could return them anytime for any reason. So I took them back and they gave me a full refund because that is their stated policy. When I returned them they insisted that the expensive Salomon trail runners were The Best Shoes for the AT. The posters here remind me of those knowledgeable clerks but ZPacks doesn't have as generous a return policy as REI.

Nor does most of the world. REI is able to afford to do this due to their profit margins and volume of sales, plus making up for some of the loss by reselling the returned items at garage sale events (much to my liking as that's where lots of my gear is from). ZPacks makes a low-volume, specialized product. REI can afford to take losses that aren't their fault and benefits from the reputation of doing so - that's not something ZPacks can, or cares to, do. Something being expensive does not automatically entitle the consumer to being able to damage their gear free of responsibility for doing so.

[AfterParty]

Badlands hunting packs has the kinda warranty you need! But like +30 on this one.

[saltysack]

the stuff sac is made for the sleeping bag

It's better off not compressed that small if not totally necessary anyway most folks don't even use the stuff sacks for their quilts/bags anyway...wouldn't sweat it...live and learn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SkeeterPee]

Do you have a picture of the box it came in that shows how you cut it open? That might convince people they you took appropriate caution and it was faulty packing that was the cause. On the other hand if you took sharp edge and cut the top inch off the box then I think we all would agree you did it wrong.

[Dogwood]

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon1.png What happens when gear gets damaged on opening?
You learn to open things more carefully next time?

[Dogwood]

You order cuben fiber repair tape from ZP?

[Alligator]

I worked two summers in a stuffed animal warehouse. They were well made and expensive so we knew to be careful with our utility knives. Most shipping boxes are of the standard variety with four flaps on the top and four on the bottom. Pick a sealed side. Make a small point with your utility knife. Look at the seam of tape holding the top flaps together. Don't cut that, that's usually where people cut the contents because they've got their utility knife set to broadsword. Instead, cut the tape on the edge, this is the tape perpendicular to the top seam. There are flaps above and below that seam. Now with your knife set to surgeon, you won't go through the flaps. The top flaps are loose, just nick the end of the seam. Most tape will split along the seam if you just pull the top flaps apart starting at the nick.

I distinctly remember as a child getting a sealed Christmas card which I tore while opening the envelope. After that, I learned the proper way to open an envelope.

I could understand if it was in that clam shell plastic and held down with twisty ties and the battery compartment screw needed a ten power magnifier and you had to put 50 stickers on the darn thing. But I think you said it came in a box. Your being totally not satisfied because your stuff sack failed to stop a knife which you applied might be warranted if the product was made out of kevlar. Cuben isn't that tough though.

[OwenM]

All ZPacks did was send you a package that you were too thoughtless to open properly. They ARE giving you good service by sending you repair tape that you'd normally have to buy to fix YOUR screwup, so you're wasting your time casting aspersions on their reputation.
Katabatic shipped my $490 quilt to me in the exact same manner, recently, after I sent it in to have a broken clip replaced. Good luck finding complaints about their company, service or products.

You might as well get used to the idea that thin cuben fiber is fragile, regardless. You're probably going to need repair tape on that stuff sack anyway after it sees some use, because that's reality. Nothing wrong with the construction quality of my few ZPacks items, but the cuben itself has very little resistance to puncture or wear in the weight they use for most stuff sacks, so is easily damaged.
C'est la vie...you want the lightest material, there's a price to pay, and not just in $$.

[daddytwosticks]

I can't see how an entrepreneurial person could start a small cottage business these days. Between excessive government regulations and the customers' unrealistic expectations, a new business owner is doomed from the start. :(

[T.Bates]

For the OP, like everyone else, this was not Zpacks fault but no need to rehash that as theirs 5 pages. Anyhow I found a good site the demonstrates the safe way to open packages so you don't cut yourself or the contents in the box. http://theinkkitchen.com/2014/08/how-to-safely-open-a-box-really/ This should benefit you for future packages so you can safely retrieve your new goodies without incident!!! I hope this helps and sorry to hear about your incident but some lessons you have to learn the hard way(I learn about 60% of my lessons this way but that way you'll never make the same mistake twice!!)

[T.Bates]

there's**
I'm not illiterate

[egilbe]

Its a statement on the dumbing down of society in general where there is a website on how to safely open a box.

[Tipi Walter]

Its a statement on the dumbing down of society in general where there is a website on how to safely open a box.

Yeah. Some guy puts up a thread here of his one month backpacking trip to Alaska and he gets zero hits but a thread on how to safely open a box gets 102 posts.

[egilbe]

Yeah. Some guy puts up a thread here of his one month backpacking trip to Alaska and he gets zero hits but a thread on how to safely open a box gets 102 posts.

Where is that thread?

[Tipi Walter]

Where is that thread?

Okay, a little exaggeration because I wanted to direct it away from me but in fact I posted a trip report here recently of a 24 day backpacking trip into Pisgah NF and didn't get a single hit. Lucky Lear gets a hundred posts about opening a cardboard box.

[egilbe]

Okay, a little exaggeration because I wanted to direct it away from me but in fact I posted a trip report here recently of a 24 day backpacking trip into Pisgah NF and didn't get a single hit. Lucky Lear gets a hundred posts abut opening a cardboard box.

The one with the snakes?

[Tipi Walter]

The one with the snakes?

Nope, this one---
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/119178-24-Days-in-the-Pisgah-Holyland?highlight=

[DuneElliot]

Okay, a little exaggeration because I wanted to direct it away from me but in fact I posted a trip report here recently of a 24 day backpacking trip into Pisgah NF and didn't get a single hit. Lucky Lear gets a hundred posts about opening a cardboard box.

I'd avoided opening this thread for a while since I couldn't imagine what the OP would have been trying to gain by posting such a topic here, but I finally did.

And I actually read your entire post from that trip, just didn't post. I wish WB would have a "Thanks" or "Like" button on posts.

[MuddyWaters]

Its a statement on the dumbing down of society in general where there is a website on how to safely open a box.

Have to tell people not to leave babies in locked up hot cars too. And yet.....

[SouthMark]

Have to tell people not to leave babies in locked up hot cars too. And yet.....

...and on Preparation-H it has to say "Not to be taken internally".

[rocketsocks]

...and on Preparation-H it has to say "Not to be taken internally".yeah really, that stuff taste terrible. :o

[Puddlefish]

Yeah. Some guy puts up a thread here of his one month backpacking trip to Alaska and he gets zero hits but a thread on how to safely open a box gets 102 posts.

In my defense, I know a lot more about opening boxes than hiking Alaska.

[Tipi Walter]

In my defense, I know a lot more about opening boxes than hiking Alaska.

Maybe this is becoming more of a United Parcel Service forum and less of a backpacking forum.

[Secondmouse]

I'm not saying it was completely the manufacturer's fault. As Hosh points out, Big Agnes accounts for the fact that a lot of people open boxes with a knife and they add a little extra protection to avoid situations such as the OP has gotten himself into. But at the same time, the OP should have been more careful than it sounds like he was... so they were both partially at fault, with most of the fault being on the OP, hence the reason why I think the manufacturer's response was very reasonable.

no, it's NOT partially their fault. a manufacturers responsibility in packaging ends where/when the pkg arrives undamaged at your door. after that, it's your ball game.

I understand the feeling of sadness and frustration from damaging something through our own carelessness, but this seeking to avoid personal responsibility seems to be a recent trend in the special snowflake generation.

and just for reference, I'm of an age where none of my little league teams were ever awarded a trophy unless they won something...

[rocketsocks]

"instructions for opening located inside"

[HooKooDooKu]

yeah really, that stuff taste terrible. :o
Farmer Brown talking to farmer Green:
Brown: I bought a new bull, but he just wasn't servicing my cows.
Green: What did you do?
Brown: I had the vet check him out and he prescribed some pills.
Green: Did they work?
Brown: You bet, he not only serviced all of my cows but broke thru the fence and serviced the neighbors cows too.
Green: Wow, what were the pills the vet prescribed?
Brown: I don't know but they taste like peppermint.

[Puddlefish]

Maybe this is becoming more of a United Parcel Service forum and less of a backpacking forum.

I thought it was a forum where we posted pictures of ourselves modeling every t shirt we've ever owned. :sun

[Engine]

yeah really, that stuff taste terrible. :o

Accidently squirted Hydrocortizone cream on my toothbrush once...won't be making that mistake again anytime soon.

[Tipi Walter]

I thought it was a forum where we posted pictures of ourselves modeling every t shirt we've ever owned. :sun

ONLY if you're wearing that t-shirt while on a backpacking trip.

[DuneElliot]

Accidently squirted Hydrocortizone cream on my toothbrush once...won't be making that mistake again anytime soon.

I wear contacts and went to add some Visine to my eyes to refresh them one day, except I grabbed the Vicks Nasal spray and "refreshed" my eyes with that. Eek...well it certainly was...thankfully no damage, but I was definitely awake!

[Dogwood]

There seem to be a lot of Zpacks fanboys here in whose eyes Zpacks can do no wrong. Overstuffing an easily-damaged item in an undersized box when it could reasonably be assumed that a customer would use a sharp object to open the box (you know, the whole boxcutter idea...) is pretty lame. REI or LL Bean would handle this as a packing error and make good on it (knowing how to pack a shipment and offering good customer service probably contributed to them getting so big). This topic has been beaten to death, but I do wonder if your offending knife would be able to cut through all the self-righteousness in the finger wagging replies in this thread.

I like ZP as an option(not the only option when it comes to gear) but definitely am no fanboy assuming ZP can do no wrong. I recently had a small order from ZP get mailed to a previous incorrect address and then mysteriously disappear at that door. Puff. Confirmation said it was mailed to the door. Mailman I personally spoke to who delivered it said he rembered putting into the mailbox. Puff. It was gone. Likely nothing recognizable or usable in the package for anyone else.

This doesn't seem like a packaging error by ZP. I've never had a package from ZP, of the 5-6 I've had, overstuffed. Regardless, one has to act carefully opening up items like rain jackets, nylon/cf tents, stuff sacks, Platypus, sleeping bags, liquids especially in cardboard boxes, etc.


All ZPacks did was send you a package that you were too thoughtless to open properly. They ARE giving you good service by sending you repair tape that you'd normally have to buy to fix YOUR screwup, so you're wasting your time casting aspersions on their reputation.
Katabatic shipped my $490 quilt to me in the exact same manner, recently, after I sent it in to have a broken clip replaced. Good luck finding complaints about their company, service or products.

You might as well get used to the idea that thin cuben fiber is fragile, regardless. You're probably going to need repair tape on that stuff sack anyway after it sees some use, because that's reality. Nothing wrong with the construction quality of my few ZPacks items, but the cuben itself has very little resistance to puncture or wear in the weight they use for most stuff sacks, so is easily damaged.
C'est la vie...you want the lightest material, there's a price to pay, and not just in $$.


Regardless CF or not is not specifically that fragile compared to taffeta(sleeping bag shells). silny, stuff sacks, etc to the conscientious consumer knowing items in the package can be damaged by careless opening. IMHO, it gets back to understanding the qualities of UL gear and treating with TLC. I get the OP though all excited about his new super duper SUL CF gear hastily opening with a sharp knife like a kid on Christmas morn.

[HooKooDooKu]

no, it's NOT partially their fault. a manufacturers responsibility in packaging ends where/when the pkg arrives undamaged at your door. after that, it's your ball game.
Not True. Just because the package arrives undamaged doesn't absolve a manufacturer's responsibility to ensure a package can be reasonably opened without damaging the product.

I'm not saying it's a manufacturer's responsibility to provide 3" of cushioning all the way around their product to protect it from the idiot that jams a 3" long pocket knife blade all the way to the hilt into the box.

But the fact that you see warnings on some boxes about opening it with a sharp object means a manufacturer can have some expectation that some segment of the population is likely going to open their product with a sharp object... at least to cut through the packing tape.

So if the product is packaged such that the product is basically pushed up against packing tape, then the manufacturer should expect a certain segment of their customers are going to damage the product trying to cut open the tape and should either provide a warning or something to separate the product from the packing tape.

[egilbe]

Not True. Just because the package arrives undamaged doesn't absolve a manufacturer's responsibility to ensure a package can be reasonably opened without damaging the product.

I'm not saying it's a manufacturer's responsibility to provide 3" of cushioning all the way around their product to protect it from the idiot that jams a 3" long pocket knife blade all the way to the hilt into the box.

But the fact that you see warnings on some boxes about opening it with a sharp object means a manufacturer can have some expectation that some segment of the population is likely going to open their product with a sharp object... at least to cut through the packing tape.

So if the product is packaged such that the product is basically pushed up against packing tape, then the manufacturer should expect a certain segment of their customers are going to damage the product trying to cut open the tape and should either provide a warning or something to separate the product from the packing tape.
A reasonable person can open a box without slashing the contents. Packsging engineers make sure the product isnt damaged in shipment, not because someone can't use a sharp intrument safely. Sleeping bags arent known to be damaged in shipment.

[Offshore]

I can't see how an entrepreneurial person could start a small cottage business these days. Between excessive government regulations and the customers' unrealistic expectations, a new business owner is doomed from the start. :(

Actually, under-capitalization and poor business plans, but thanks for trying.

[Just Bill]

Actually, under-capitalization and poor business plans, but thanks for trying.

:clap

Otherwise... why is this thread still going again?

[egilbe]

:clap

Otherwise... why is this thread still going again?

Because we want to hear, or see, that he (the OP) understands his error. It takes a village to raise a child, afterall. Once he admits its his sole responsibility and that Z-packs was beyond thoughtful in sending tape, for free, to fix his mistake, the thread can die a benevolent death.

Otherwise, popcorn is cheap and Im bored at work.

[DuneElliot]

Because we want to hear, or see, that he (the OP) understands his error. It takes a village to raise a child, afterall. Once he admits its his sole responsibility and that Z-packs was beyond thoughtful in sending tape, for free, to fix his mistake, the thread can die a benevolent death.

Otherwise, popcorn is cheap and Im bored at work.

Agreed...it's been pretty entertaining. And I have to agree that ZPacks CS is awesome. Yes it occasionally takes a while but I have recently been having issues with the lower bar on my Arc Haul causing me pain (not the pack's fault), Joe himself emailed me to offer a solution and make a custom belt for me. I haven't decided if I'm going to try that route yet, but they really try to help out those who need it.

[Secondmouse]

Not True. Just because the package arrives undamaged doesn't absolve a manufacturer's responsibility to ensure a package can be reasonably opened without damaging the product.

I'm not saying it's a manufacturer's responsibility to provide 3" of cushioning all the way around their product to protect it from the idiot that jams a 3" long pocket knife blade all the way to the hilt into the box.

But the fact that you see warnings on some boxes about opening it with a sharp object means a manufacturer can have some expectation that some segment of the population is likely going to open their product with a sharp object... at least to cut through the packing tape.

So if the product is packaged such that the product is basically pushed up against packing tape, then the manufacturer should expect a certain segment of their customers are going to damage the product trying to cut open the tape and should either provide a warning or something to separate the product from the packing tape.

no, still wrong. seriously, how freaking stupid does someone have to be to not understand, without a printed warning, that if you cut into a package you might damage what's inside???

there are ways to cut/remove packaging tape without cutting into the interior of the box. is this something that should be taught in school now?..

[Engine]

...manufacturer's responsibility to ensure a package can be reasonably opened without damaging the product...the fact that you see warnings on some boxes about opening it with a sharp object means a manufacturer can have some expectation that some segment of the population is likely going to open their product with a sharp object...the manufacturer should expect a certain segment of their customers are going to damage the product trying to cut open the tape...

The package can be opened without damaging the product, that has been established already. As for the certain segment of society you keep referring to, it's UNREASONABLE to expect a manufacturer to take extra steps in order to compensate for UNREASONABLY thoughtless acts of the end user. This whole litigous society nonsense is part of the problem...once again, no one is forced to own their own actions. For people who have been raised in this type of environment, it becomes impossible for them to understand the value in doing so. This thread has proven that...

[SkeeterPee]

None of you know how the box was received so you can't say zpacks took adequate care. maybe there were no side flaps to protect the product.. You don't know and the OP has not described what they actually did to open it so we really can't say whose fault it was. I think the one time I bought stuff from Zpacks the stuff was poorly packaged allowing it flop around in the box. so it is possible that they don't always package well. And if what the OP said was correct that they will only email him and not talk to him, then that is BAD Customer Support no matter what else you say.

[egilbe]

None of you know how the box was received so you can't say zpacks took adequate care. maybe there were no side flaps to protect the product.. You don't know and the OP has not described what they actually did to open it so we really can't say whose fault it was. I think the one time I bought stuff from Zpacks the stuff was poorly packaged allowing it flop around in the box. so it is possible that they don't always package well. And if what the OP said was correct that they will only email him and not talk to him, then that is BAD Customer Support no matter what else you say.

it comes to a certain point where arguing with stupid people becomes too much of a bother. Im sure the tiny cottage company that is Z-Packs reached that long ago.

[kayak karl]

I think the one time I bought stuff from Zpacks the stuff was poorly packaged you think or you know?

[soumodeler]

None of you know how the box was received so you can't say zpacks took adequate care. maybe there were no side flaps to protect the product.. You don't know and the OP has not described what they actually did to open it so we really can't say whose fault it was. I think the one time I bought stuff from Zpacks the stuff was poorly packaged allowing it flop around in the box. so it is possible that they don't always package well. And if what the OP said was correct that they will only email him and not talk to him, then that is BAD Customer Support no matter what else you say.

To be completely fair, we don't know if the OP provided a phone number for ZPacks to call. They state upfront on their website that they handle everything by email. It makes sense for a company their size to do so, as it frees up resources from constantly monitoring a phone. That is just the reality in 2016. Customer service is now more digital than analog.

Also, I can't think of a single item that ZPacks sells that needs to be protected from bouncing around in a box. Why waste the time and money to uselessly bubble wrap something?

[AfterParty]

To avoid threads like this.

[kayak karl]

To avoid threads like this. You didn't avoid it....you commented :)

[HooKooDooKu]

The package can be opened without damaging the product, that has been established already. As for the certain segment of society you keep referring to, it's UNREASONABLE to expect a manufacturer to take extra steps in order to compensate for UNREASONABLY thoughtless acts of the end user.
I would agree that a manufacturer shouldn't have to take extra steps to compensate for UNREASONABLY thoughtless acts...

But I would also argue that is it NOT UNREASONABLE to use a sharp instrument to cut through a layer of tape to open a box.

While we have not been told exactly what the packaging was like in this particular case, if there was absolutely nothing between the packing tape that held the box closed and the product easily damaged by a sharp instrument, then the product was poorly packaged.

Just because you know how to safely open a poorly packaged product doesn't mean everyone else is familiar with being extra cautious opening a poorly packaged product.

[DuneElliot]

I have ordered multiple things from ZPacks and it has ALWAYS been packaged well and responsibly.

[MuddyWaters]

no, still wrong. seriously, how freaking stupid does someone have to be to not understand, without a printed warning, that if you cut into a package you might damage what's inside???

..

Particularly when you know whats inside.

The good part is, its only a freakin stuffsak. And cuben tape is an easy 100% repair.

Ive got tape all over cuben gear. If you expect it to stay pristine...you got the wrong gear anyway.

[soilman]

I purchased a Duplex tent this summer. It came in a Priority mail envelope tightly wrapped and taped in a cylinder shape. I knew I had a fragile $600 tent under that tyvek layer so I was extra careful in opening. I had no damage.

[saltysack]

This thread is almost as stupid as the movie my kid is watching......Sharknado 4.....


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[Venchka]

This thread is almost as stupid as the movie my kid is watching......Sharknado 4.....


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I think that you may have that backwards.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

[scrabbler]

Wait what did I miss here?

[saltysack]

I think that you may have that backwards.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Like a car wreck.....you can't help but look!!!


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[Minos]

I'm not asking for a whole new sleeping bag and I'm damn happy that didn't get damaged on opening too, just the stuff sac. Less than 10% of the total order.

And yes, I would have definitely posted they had done a good turn if they had. REI did a GREAT turn letting me return those slippery Salomons.

Not absolving you of anything as I do not have the specifics and I do not know how the bag was packaged (and your report seems to be pointing at operator error - I will not use the term careless though as I do not have the specifics).

Now, you're at the wrong place to preach here. You should know by now that there is a double standard here, where cottage manufacturers have a free pass on many many things, while the big box stores have zero margin for error.

You will see that there are guys returning a backpack/socks to REI/DarnTough after 10 years of use and feeling right about it just because the policy allows that; while at the same time, a cottage company does not have to put plastic bubble all around a luxury piece of equipment during shipping, just because he is a small guy.

Guess it sucks to be a big guy in the business (even though your margins may be much smaller than the little guy)...

[Offshore]

Wait what did I miss here?

Absolutely nothing.

[Franco]

" while at the same time, a cottage company does not have to put plastic bubble all around a luxury piece of equipment during shipping, just because he is a small guy."

Yes and when they do use plastic bubbles , cottage manufacturers should be ready to be criticised for using unnecessary packaging polluting the environment as well as increasing the size and cost of the parcel .

[Secondmouse]

Not absolving you of anything as I do not have the specifics and I do not know how the bag was packaged (and your report seems to be pointing at operator error - I will not use the term careless though as I do not have the specifics).

Now, you're at the wrong place to preach here. You should know by now that there is a double standard here, where cottage manufacturers have a free pass on many many things, while the big box stores have zero margin for error.

you really want to use this incident as a springboard to pick a fight with this site for its "double standard"? really??? who gored your ox?..


You will see that there are guys returning a backpack/socks to REI/DarnTough after 10 years of use and feeling right about it just because the policy allows that; while at the same time, a cottage company does not have to put plastic bubble all around a luxury piece of equipment during shipping, just because he is a small guy.

Guess it sucks to be a big guy in the business (even though your margins may be much smaller than the little guy)...

well, I don't know...

the Darn Tough Unconditionally GUARANTEED FOR LIFE statement reads:

"If our socks aren't the most comfortable, durable and best fitting socks you've ever worn, return them for another pair. No strings attached. For life."
- Ric Cabot

so, it appears that the returny thing on Darn Tough socks is engendered by Darn Tough themselves, not evil big business. and because it is the core of their brand marketing and promotion, it is without question factored into the final price of their product.

so, given that you have already paid for that replacement pair of socks (in the purchase price of the initial pair ) why would you not avail yourselves of it, smugness having nothing to do with it?

but all that aside, I'm still trying to figure out what your real purpose was when you joined this conversation...

[saltysack]

" while at the same time, a cottage company does not have to put plastic bubble all around a luxury piece of equipment during shipping, just because he is a small guy."

Yes and when they do use plastic bubbles , cottage manufacturers should be ready to be criticised for using unnecessary packaging polluting the environment as well as increasing the size and cost of the parcel .

Agree...every time I order something it discusses me how much packaging waste is created!


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[Minos]

Agree...every time I order something it discusses me how much packaging waste is created!


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Now we have talking packages !:eek:

[Engine]

Now we have talking packages !:eek:

If they had audible opening instructions, none of this would have happened. There's the next government mandate for manufacturers. Of course we'll all end up shelling out an extra 15% for every purchase to cover the cost, but it's gotta be worth it, right?

[Offshore]

" while at the same time, a cottage company does not have to put plastic bubble all around a luxury piece of equipment during shipping, just because he is a small guy."

Yes and when they do use plastic bubbles , cottage manufacturers should be ready to be criticised for using unnecessary packaging polluting the environment as well as increasing the size and cost of the parcel .

Exactly what is wrong with holding a mom and pop to the same standard as a large manufacturer? If a small business makes a specialty item better that their large competitors but misses the mark in other areas of business such as product availability, shipping, or customer service, why should they get a pass simply because they are small?

[bobp]

If they had audible opening instructions, none of this would have happened. There's the next government mandate for manufacturers. Of course we'll all end up shelling out an extra 15% for every purchase to cover the cost, but it's gotta be worth it, right?

The talking package isn't a terrible idea. You can buy recordable greeting card modules for 60 cents apiece in quantity. The cost is less if the message is constant (isn't Google great!). So, assuming the shipper only passes along the cost (and doesn't try to make a profit), the 15% point is at $4.00. Spending 60 cents to provide instructions for unboxing a $300 item seems like a decent idea to me.

Of course, in the case under discussion, an extra 60 cents spent on bubble wrap, a kevlar protective envelope, or other barrier would have been effective.

[MtDoraDave]

Exactly what is wrong with holding a mom and pop to the same standard as a large manufacturer? If a small business makes a specialty item better that their large competitors but misses the mark in other areas of business such as product availability, shipping, or customer service, why should they get a pass simply because they are small?

Because the "large manufacturer" places are wrong for making people think that user error deserves manufacturer (or retailer) loss.

Put yourself in a small business situation. You do the best you can within your tight budget to provide a quality service or piece of merchandise to your customers. If you make a mistake, you cover it - which costs you money, but hey - it was your mistake. Now imagine the customer expects you to repair or replace your product because of something they did to damage it?? Now take it to the extreme: imagine every customer does that to you. You'd either go out of business or be forced to charge double what you used to charge. When you do that, someone will start where you did, and you're business dries up because now you're too expensive.

If you read almost all warranty fine print, it usually says something along the lines of "... one year warranty against manufacturers defects... not responsible if product damaged due to improper use..."

The OP insisting it wasn't his fault because he's been opening products for years without incident is just silly. It's like the guy who got a dui saying that he's been driving home from the bar for years without a dui, so this time he thinks the bartender ought to be held responsible.

[DuneElliot]

Exactly what is wrong with holding a mom and pop to the same standard as a large manufacturer? If a small business makes a specialty item better that their large competitors but misses the mark in other areas of business such as product availability, shipping, or customer service, why should they get a pass simply because they are small?

We are holding them to the same standards, at least I do. Receiving my pack and tent from ZPacks and my quilt from EE and then another pack from ULA...they were all securely packaged to high standards and didn't require the skill of a brain surgeon to open. However, I, knowing what was inside and how much things cost me was still very careful about opening the boxes. All 3 companies provided excellent customer service and great products...and respectable packaging in all incidences

[saltysack]

Now we have talking packages !:eek:

Ha I didn't win any spelling bees growing up!!!


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[OkeefenokeeJoe]

This entire thread is void of common sense.

The OP opened and damaged his own product due to his own malignant carelessness. It's his fault, his problem, no one owes him anything. Case closed.

I'm embarrassed (for him) that a grown man would initiate such a thread.

Furthermore, no one should mandate ANYTHING to a business regarding how they package their products. It's called a free society (at least for the moment) and manufacturers should have the right to package their products how they best see fit, void of big government and millennial intrusion on their business practices.

On the other hand, you have the power of the purse. If you don't like how one manufacturer packages its goods, then don't buy from them. Commerce in a free society is a powerful thing.

Regardless, the OP damaged his own product, let him eat it.

That's your common sense instruction for the day ..... Keep your credit cards in your pockets, little ones, this information is free of charge.

You can thank me later.

OkeefenokeeJoe

[egilbe]

Thank you.

[Minos]

This entire thread is void of common sense.

The OP opened and damaged his own product due to his own malignant carelessness. It's his fault, his problem, no one owes him anything. Case closed.



It was off to a great start




I'm embarrassed (for him) that a grown man would initiate such a thread.

Furthermore, no one should mandate ANYTHING to a business regarding how they package their products. It's called a free society (at least for the moment) and manufacturers should have the right to package their products how they best see fit, void of big government and millennial intrusion on their business practices.


OMG... Ephebiphodia here I come. Resentment towards the next generation? Or is it the Me Generations feeling powerless and left behind?



On the other hand, you have the power of the purse. If you don't like how one manufacturer packages its goods, then don't buy from them. Commerce in a free society is a powerful thing.



Probably... but totally meaningless in practice.
Never seen a single manufacturer (cottage or not) advertise with pictures of how goods end up being packaged and shipped. Until you find that on websites, this argument is as weak as can be found.


By the way, Tarptent which is another great cottage manufacturer has a series on "package opening" on their FB page for all those that are totally clueless.... Also, if I remember correctly I think EE puts several stickers on their packaging about not opening with sharp objects. Just saying...

[Minos]

Because the "large manufacturer" places are wrong for making people think that user error deserves manufacturer (or retailer) loss.


Tell that to all the lawyers suing Cessna and Cirrus....

[MtDoraDave]

Don't get me started on the lawyers, lol.

[saltysack]

This this threads harder to kill than the clap......[emoji122]


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[egilbe]

This this threads harder to kill than the clap......[emoji122]


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depends on the clap.

[Mags]

Thank you for everyone's input.