Pack Sized of Climashield summer quilt

[fastfoxengineering]

Anybody have a 2.5 climashield summer quilt laying around? As much googling as I do I can't really get a good representation of how small they are. I wouldn't be compressing my quilt, as a synthetic, I'd store it loosely in the bottom of my pack. However, Enlightened Equipment states the reg/reg 50* prodigy quilt has a packed size of 8.5L. Then in the reviews people say they are double that.

So anybody? I have seen 50* down quilts pack down to almost the size of softball. Very, very small. Is climashield that much bulkier? I figured double, which would still be small packed size. I have a 20* reg length, wide down quilt from hammock gear that can pack pretty small. Comfortable in a 12L dry bag. Is it safe to assume a 2.5 climashield would be larger/smaller/about the same?

better yet... anybody have any pictures? Just trying to see what size i'm dealing with. Starting to get important as my thru-hiking pack keeps getting smaller and smaller.. Down to a 40L pack and I like it.

thanks,
fastfox

[Just Bill]

Double or triple the volume of down- easy. As yer recently famous Vermont senator might say- they are Yuge.

This is 3.6 apex vs. 3.0 Primaloft Gold- both 45* and the exact same quilt pattern.
(Primaloft is roughly the pack size of 750 down)
35653

I did bring a 2oz Climbashield for a speed hike of the LT in much the manner you suggest- It sucked up a good 1/4 of a homemade pack (roughly 35 liter body). Trimmed it down to 11 ounces or so though and wasn't carrying much so the bulk helped stabilize the load overall.

2.5 oz Apex- It's a 50* brand spanking new, 55* after some hard use, and 60* after a decent season (60-100 nights). Point being- it's about the lightest, easiest, MYOG quilt out there you can make, you can ride it hard for a long hike but by then it's ready to hit the shelf for summer car camping use only.
On the plus side- you don't NEED to quilt it and you can put one together for about 12 ounces and $80 bucks or so. Not that I believe in disposable gear... but this can be a decent case for an ultralight and reasonably cheap quilt- mine ended up getting passed to some younger cousins after each abusive trip before I started using Primaloft Gold and solved that problem.

But Primaloft Gold is on par with making a down bag as far as labor/skill/etc. If you wanted to take one on, let me know. There is a way to thru quilt them that's not horrendously painful but you loose a bit of temp rating that way and need to retain the scrim layer at a minor weight penalty. (3.0 is about 50* vs 45*) That said- it would be warmer than 2.5 APEX even when thru quilted.

[Just Bill]

Didn't answer your question.
2 yards of Climbashield 2(ish)- 1296 inches x two yards x 1/2" thick= 1296 CU in divided by 61CU is 21.25 L for just the insulation.
Pack it loose- maybe half that (11L)
Pack it tight- maybe a third that (7 ish L) (roughly about the EE number- roughly the size of the quilt in the pic.)

Add a liter for the shell material.

Keep in mind- 2 yards is a pretty tight quilt. (XUL summer style) My typical SUL is closer to 2.25 sqyds.
An EE regular regular is closer to 3 sq yards of material.

Don't recall the stuff sack size in the pick above exactly- I do recall it squeezed into a 2 gallon bag- then promptly pushed a few liters back out.
The Primloft one is packed into an Xlite large stuff sack- 4x12- roughly 2.5 L.
35654

[fastfoxengineering]

You making primaloft quilts for sale yet justbill

[Just Bill]

If you want the long story and some of my dramatic yappin.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/113531-Town-s-End-Update-advice-questions/page2

Short story-not yet.
Our closing got delayed a bit- so didn't really move until early July and I am in the process of looking for a rental space where I can set up a small sewing shop there. I'm able to sew a little bit but only a piece or two a week at best. (Like a 10 ounce 45* Primaloft gold 3/4 length UQ that is lighter than any down equivalent on the market that is being tested now.)

If you weren't in a huge hurry let me know... if all goes well I will be ready to sew a few things here and there in a few weeks and plan to get some (more) prototypes out to people to get more feedback. I'd be happy to toss you on that list. If you're still hanging (can't recall if you gave it up) may even have some more prototypes you might be a good fit to try.

[fastfoxengineering]

I'm still hanging and prefer it over ground camping, however, ground camping has it's time and place on a lot of the trips I've been doing lately. Been playing around in the high peaks of the white mountains and as much as people claim hammock camping is the best up here, it isn't if you plan on staying at the campsites which typically have a shelter and tent platforms. Furthermore, I'm heading out to thru hike the Cohos Trail up here in NH during the last/first week of Septemeber/October. I'm going to bringing a flat tarp for that trip. Going to utilize the shelters along the way, they're new, and I'm gonna try and put out some videography and such about the CT because it's still a mystery to a lot of people. Anyways, I've been hiking light and not so fast this season and being on the ground has suited me better to the trips I've been doing. I've always wanted a summer quilt. I lug around a 22oz 20* down quilt all three seasons right now. It's hot and clammy during those warm nights and my insulating clothes stay in the pack. Because I'm not willing to leave much of my clothing system behind (Baselayer, lightweight fleece, ul down hoodie, rain jacket) any time of the year, I see it as an opportunity to use a lighter, more comfortable quilt for those temp ranges. I feel like a piece of equipment like that could be pretty versatile for an aspiring hiker who's trying to pack a pretty light kit. As someone who knows little about synthetic materials, I am on the side that they would be "easier" to use in hot, damp, humid climates such as what one experiences a lot of on the east coast. So far all I have come up with for negatives of a synthetic quilt is a shorter lifespan, not as compressible as a down quilt, and typically, I said typically, a slight weight penalty. The positives really do seem to outweigh the negatives in favor for a summer weight synthetic quilt.

I am in no rush, as I know need warmer insulation for the rest of the year up here in New New Hampshire. I got to thinkin as a winter diy project. I am however interested in a primaloft quilt. The only reason I didn't consider it as a DIY quilt is because for all that work and learning curve, I would have just made a down quilt.

PM coming your way when I get home from work.

[fastfoxengineering]

man.. I should proofread my posts.

[Just Bill]

Actually probably one of the projects I'm most excited about is a bridge Hammock that uses a sleeping pad instead of an under quilt for the exact reasons you mentioned; you can go to ground or a shelter when you went to and hang the rest of the time without having to carry extra gear or compromise on either option.

Out east, in summer, I too am in agreement with your thoughts on synthetics. Especially when the weight and pack size gap can be narrowed. That and there is a decent argument to be made against down in lofts below 1..25", the down doesn't work as well and the shell material offsets the weight savings of the down.

ill look fer yer pm, but seems we're having a private conversation already, lol.

[SWODaddy]

I have a wide/reg 50deg prodigy quilt and it will compress enough to fit in a 2L dry bag, though I wouldn't recommend it. Weight is just under 14oz too. Highly recommend it.

[SWODaddy]

Here's a picture with a 1L nalgene for reference:

35670

[cmoulder]

I have a wide/reg 50deg prodigy quilt and it will compress enough to fit in a 2L dry bag, though I wouldn't recommend it. Weight is just under 14oz too. Highly recommend it.

+1 Never compress it any more than necessary.

I have a Prodigy 40deg and simply put it in the bottom of the pack with no stuff sack of any kind and let the gear above compress it for me. The is the most space-efficient way to pack because the quilt spreads out to utilize every available nook and cranny. My pack (Arc Blast) is highly water resistant (actually rained on quite a bit with no leaks) so — especially with a synthetic quilt — no worries. And I have also packed down quilts this way with nary a problem.

[Secondmouse]

+1 Never compress it any more than necessary.

I have a Prodigy 40deg and simply put it in the bottom of the pack with no stuff sack of any kind and let the gear above compress it for me. The is the most space-efficient way to pack because the quilt spreads out to utilize every available nook and cranny. My pack (Arc Blast) is highly water resistant (actually rained on quite a bit with no leaks) so — especially with a synthetic quilt — no worries. And I have also packed down quilts this way with nary a problem.

I'll second this. I have a Prodigy 40* that I just put loose into the trash bag liner in the bottom my pack and put other things on top. nonetheless, it has lost a noticeable bit of loft after 10 days on the trail. I can only imagine how much it would have lost if I put it in a compression sack...

[Just Bill]

The main advantage of synthetics- is that they still perform when wet. I have used Apex and Primaloft soaking wet and can confirm they do work. Primaloft is better (92% warmth retention when wet), and I have even done some tests with it where I went to bed with a soaked through bag in low 40* temps and woke up with a dry bag. (25* rated bag) It was not pleasant to go to bed that way... but it's nice to know.

So keeping them bone dry is not a real concern. Depending on the shell material- there could be some water absorbsion there- otherwise other than moisture trapped inside in the air pockets (like a sponge) the insulation itself will not absorb water like down or wool does.

Apex (continuous filament insulations) can loose as much as 25% of their loft the first time you compress it. To be fair though, Apex is "the best of the bunch" and will not fare quite as badly- so don't freak out.
My personal experience- a few degrees of loss in the first 30 days, and a good 5-10* total after 100-200 nights depending on how hard you use it.

Continuous filament synthetics (Apex)- is like taking 1000 yards of fishing line and bunching it up into a mat. (quilted 2' or further on center for stability)
Short staple synthetics (like Primaloft)- is like taking 1000 ONE yard pieces of fishing line and tangling them up into a batt of insulation. (quilted 6" or less for stability)

The best way I know to explain it-
If you have ever used a steel wool pad...you understand the structure and the problem.
They hold up just fine in your hand, even to a bit of light use. But as you start using them you will note that they break down. In heavy use, they almost dissolve.
Continuous filament synthetics will "break" in much the same way with compression and wear down, they won't loft/spring back as the fibers break down.

The exact time this takes- depends on how rough you are.

On the flipside- Short staple fills require extensive quilting (on par with Down in terms of design and labor) or else they will degrade and more or less form a product like down. (North face Puffball is simply degraded and fluffed Primaloft Gold). The good news- it still works just fine at roughly 650 fill. The bad news- without baffles to hold it all where it needs to be... it's basically a big sack of loose fill if it fails.


Apex quilts are typically not quilted at all (they are simply sewn to the shell at the perimeter of the bag) so there is a bit less stability than the 24" OC that is recommended.
To an extent- this choice means you may have to baby them a bit more than lab results might indicate.

[Just Bill]

I'll second this. I have a Prodigy 40* that I just put loose into the trash bag liner in the bottom my pack and put other things on top. nonetheless, it has lost a noticeable bit of loft after 10 days on the trail. I can only imagine how much it would have lost if I put it in a compression sack...

For what it's worth- I had the best luck with APEX (what EE uses) when I placed it on the outside of my load in the main pack body.
I put spare clothes, socks, etc into the bottom of the bag- used a tall narrow food bag and water bladder against my back- and then loose stuffed the quilt around my other items to fill in the rest.

I think this helps quite a bit to avoid excessive weight bouncing on your quilt as you move- generally speaking- the load will compress the bag as it is sitting directly on top of it.

[Secondmouse]

For what it's worth- I had the best luck with APEX (what EE uses) when I placed it on the outside of my load in the main pack body.
I put spare clothes, socks, etc into the bottom of the bag- used a tall narrow food bag and water bladder against my back- and then loose stuffed the quilt around my other items to fill in the rest.

I think this helps quite a bit to avoid excessive weight bouncing on your quilt as you move- generally speaking- the load will compress the bag as it is sitting directly on top of it.

good to know. but your comments above, that long staple, or single filament insulation is more susceptible to compression than short staple, is exactly opposite of what I have been led to believe previously. exactly opposite...

are you sure you're not mixing them up?..

[Just Bill]

good to know. but your comments above, that long staple, or single filament insulation is more susceptible to compression than short staple, is exactly opposite of what I have been led to believe previously. exactly opposite...

are you sure you're not mixing them up?..

Yar- tricky tricky. :D You are right on paper, wrong in real life... or we could both say the same depending on our experiences.

"Believe previously" does help qualify the statement- and it's not an incorrect one based upon previous experience depending on when you started learning. It also does back up the general literature and lab results.

If I were to add a better qualifier to my opinion- "Climbashield Apex products versus Primaloft Gold products" is probably in order. As is "When construction techniques and real world conditions are applied."

http://blog.rei.com/camp/down-vs-synthetic-which-insulation-is-right-for-you/
REI can be handy for their relatively simple and concise articles... from this one-

"There are many competing brand names for synthetic insulations, which can make shopping confusing. A more relevant distinction is knowing whether a synthetic insulator is short-staple or continuous filament.

Short-staple insulations feature short strands of fine-denier filaments that are densely packed to minimize heat loss. This makes sleeping bags and jackets feel soft and flexible, much like down-filled products, and allows for great compressibility. They are, however, a bit less durable than continuous filament and the insulation can move around to create cold spots.

Continuous-filament insulations use a thicker continuous filament that is lofty, strong and durable. They tend to have a stiffer feel and are less compressible than short-staple insulations, but they stay in place so are less likely to create cold spots."

I would agree with that general definition. Even in the real world. If I take a sq yard each of a generic version (even if they both came from the same company) and handled them- the continuous filament would seem more durable. In simple handling of each, I would note pieces of the short staple coming off and tearing at the edges. If I tossed them as is into the washing machine- the short staple fill would degrade fairly quickly.

If I put them on a work bench and smashed them with my hand, eventually I could pulverize the short staple fill and/or reduce it's warmth. However, if I took a fresh piece and balled it up into the tightest ball I could, I might see a different result depending on the exact flavor or each used. If I repeated this, I might even find that while the continuous filament does do a good job of holding it's general shape, it didn't rebound and loft under this more extreme compression test as well as the short staple.

As to what REI and general wisdom/lab results have to say...
Yes- short staple fills will separate if left on their own, which would cause a shifting and cold spots- similar to an underfilled or damp down fill.

However- this assumes that you apply the same bag construction to each product. Both products are sold in a batt, similar to fabric.
Generally speaking a 100gsm (3 oz/yard) of each is roughly 5/8" thick and the size of a roll of fabric (60" wide or so by roll size).
So initially; synthetic products were made the same. Put a batt of insulation in between a shell and a liner and go.
In this scenario, short staple fills are inferior to continuous filament and damaged easily by compression, stress, or laundering (which is basically both).
I believe this is the basic (and correct) source of conventional wisdom on the topic.

Climbashield Apex vs. Primaloft Gold-

Apex is technically required to be quilted 24" OC- which it rarely if ever is in the cottage or MYOG gear world. Commercial bags using synthetics typically do follow this guideline. https://www.rei.com/product/894999/rei-trail-pod-29-sleeping-bag

So in real life, when looking at a larger piece of gear, there is more damage and potential for breakage of the filaments than you might find in the lab. Even though your quilt may be "loose stuffed" you still have to grab a hunk of it and shove it in. You still have to pull a corner out when you unpack it, and it still gets bounced around with your other gear. Parts of your bag are loose stuffed, likely a different part each day. You still tug on the top of the bag with your toes buried in the foot end, or pinch it hard and tug it around your shoulders. This type of spot compression is much like the ball it up into a tight wad kind of damage I describe above.
Technically, the only way you could guarantee that you were not over compressing the bag in general; would be to pack it in it's own stuff sack and strap it to the outside of your pack. Which is not very practical for most of us so not a very helpful suggestion.

With Primaloft (who does also make continuous filament insulations) you must start with the simple premise that there is an inherent limitation- extensive quilting requirements to stabilize the material.
The best example is the Patagonia Nano Puff- with it's signature "brick" quilt pattern. http://www.patagonia.com/nano-puff.html
This is very well known, highly respected, durable jacket. This jacket has a 3" x 6" quilting pattern and follows the guidelines of Primaloft. It has a lifetime warranty and can be laundered, abused, and still works.

Personally, I made quilts out of Apex for years before I bought one of these. After beating the crap out of the jacket for a few years; I wondered why I couldn't use this insulation in a quilt, and why others were not using it more often. The answer is pretty simple- quilting. The biggest advantage of Apex (and continuous filament) is that it is easy to work with, you can cut a piece and carry it to another part of your sewing shop just like any other material. And overall construction is pretty easy. In a piece of sleeping gear where you need larger amounts of insulation than clothing- using a short staple fill is more akin to down construction.

I had one very qualified outdoor gear oriented sewing contractor fail miserably to use it. I had another do well with it, they were a clothing producer, but they had to turn down the product to sew for my favorite outdoor brand and because of the labor time would not be able to handle my project. The labor cost per piece was at least double to sew a short staple versus a continuous filament- so overall it's cost prohibitive for most.

Assuming that you have applied the correct construction techniques to stabilize the Primaloft insulation- you then gain the packability and softer feel. Those are subjective- but the reason that Primaloft is used heavily in the best synthetic outdoor clothing.

Keep in mind- Loft is irrelevant in higher performance modern synthetics. I learned the Ray Way; 2" of stuff is 2" of stuff- but that is not the case with very high end fills. CLO is the measure of thermal efficiency used, not loft. 1 CLO= .88R for those familiar with R-values. So the one apples to apples spec that does stand out is the thermal efficiency.

Apex has .82 CLO per ounce per SY. Primaloft Gold is .92.
So to keep it simple- A
40* rated bag on the EE scale (everyone's is a hair different- but Tim's is good enough) requires 3.28 CLO or 4 oz/yd Apex.
If you could get it, you would only need 3.5 oz/yd PLG to do the same job.
On a three yard reg/reg EE quilt, that would be a 1.5 ounce difference- which is relatively large.

In the field-
http://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear-selection/topics/112908.html

This is perhaps one of my favorite threads on the topic. It actually involves the COO of Climbashield and several knowledgeable folks debating Apex vs Primaloft.
Similar discussions took place on BPL and other places that were interesting as well.

What is interesting is that Climbashield makes continuous filament synthetics. Primaloft produces both types of insulation. So they don't need to promote one over the other, they simply need to produce or recommend the correct product for the correct use. If you want a decent budget bag, then go with continuous filament. If you want a high end garment, then they push Primaloft Gold.

Again- a simple real world test many could relate to-
I own both a Nano-Puff and a Montbell UL down jacket. I baby the crap out of the MB, it still sheds down here and there and has more or less been relegated to my "dress jacket". I can't work in it because I sweat and due to the see thru shell, can actually see the down shriveling up or shifting within the baffles as a I move. So I get cold spots and fear damaging the jacket. Likely the MB will last me several years. I absolutely punish the Nano-puff. As a batting type of insulation it can't shift as I move. It won't wilt in humidity, rain, or sweat. I wash it once a month when active with it, wear it daily, put cigarette and campfire burns into it. Cut it, get it full of grease and dirt and... nothing. Still works. If it lasts a good few years under those conditions... what do you want. I don't have to think about it, baby it, or worry I'll trash it. I don't have to worry if it gets wet. If it gets dirty, the insulation won't absorb body oils and start to fail.

In real life;
Pack size is important for many backpackers.
Weight is important for many backpackers.
Cost is relevant (Apex is less than Primaloft, but Primaloft is cheaper than down)
Durability is a concern, but often a factor mitigated by many backpackers as a tradeoff for the above items.
Although most experienced folks generally agree- performance in the field regardless of cost eventually trumps all.

Primaloft Gold clothing has a very long standing and proven track record- it just needs to be built properly to maintain an adequate level of durability. I could extend that to other items that are simply used wrong.
Cuben is fairly durable, provided you avoid excessive abrasion.
Titanium is great for cookware, provided you don't cook in it.
A Gore-Tex membrane will last a decade or more and performs flawlessly in the lab; unfortunately the shell DWR coating will fail the first year and the liner or membrane can clog with body oil when you actually wear it.

Synthetic still is not down, it will break down eventually. However, as we've all noted before, using a piece of gear for 14 days a year for 10 years or a piece of gear 140 days in one year is the same thing. It still lasted 140 nights of use... so a good down bag lasting "for at least 10 years" is also a statement you should be a bit skeptical about, and take synthetics "durability" overall with a grain of salt for LD hiking.
If a sleeping bag made it 300 nights, I would expect the damn shell to rot out long before I then tried to say it would last you 10 nights a year for 30 years, even if the down could be recycled.

Modern synthetics simply haven't been around long enough to have established a good solid benchmark overall; most of what is known is from forum discussions like this from folks who actually use the stuff.
Apex has become the primary insulation as generally speaking; if you're going to the trouble just use down.

However; there is a "hole" in there. In summer type quilts, I personally believe that Primaloft Gold performs better than down; especially when in low loft situations like 40-60* the down is even more vulnerable to cold spots and other issues at lofts below 1.5". In addition, the shell to fill ratios are not very good when talking SUL pieces of gear.

The nice thing with PLG, is that if properly quilted, as it does break down it has less chance to migrate or shift as it does; it can rely on the shell materials to support it or even take on a role similar to down.
An Apex type product only relies on itself for stability(more so the farther you push the quilting spec); so as you pack/unpack and use and abuse your gear in real life- it behaves more like the steel wool I mentioned above.

[Venchka]

The preceding will be on the final exam.
Thanks Just Bill!
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

[Secondmouse]

Yar- tricky tricky. :D You are right on paper, wrong in real life... or we could both say the same depending on our experiences...

thank you for that explanation and not seeing what I wrote as some kind of challenge. I have a few friends who will be very interested in your explanation...

[Just Bill]

thank you for that explanation and not seeing what I wrote as some kind of challenge. I have a few friends who will be very interested in your explanation...
I 'd be interested in yer friend's opinions or anyone's really. I may be a liar, but I always appreciate the truth; even if it turns out I thought I had it and didn't. :D

This is really only something that has evolved from the MYOG end as there really is no commercial incentive to pursue it versus more conventional stuff for a larger vendor.
Market perception is still "Down is premium, synthetic is not" and by nearly any spec sheet you'd look at I'd have a hard time debating that perception on any thing but money.
It's really only very recent intersection of MYOG, online forums, the relatively small SUL community, recent advances in materials, material availability and the rise of the cottage vendor making any of this a possibility to even discuss.

Conventional wisdom is still pretty correct, but in a few non-conventional applications things are tricky at best. In a very narrow and specific application- we may have reached the mythical place where synthetic is equal to down.

However, once design is done, put the lab results on the shelf with the patterns and trust what folks are finding out in the field.
I think that's the next step.

[saltysack]

Yar- tricky tricky. :D You are right on paper, wrong in real life... or we could both say the same depending on our experiences.

"Believe previously" does help qualify the statement- and it's not an incorrect one based upon previous experience depending on when you started learning. It also does back up the general literature and lab results.

If I were to add a better qualifier to my opinion- "Climbashield Apex products versus Primaloft Gold products" is probably in order. As is "When construction techniques and real world conditions are applied."

http://blog.rei.com/camp/down-vs-synthetic-which-insulation-is-right-for-you/
REI can be handy for their relatively simple and concise articles... from this one-

"There are many competing brand names for synthetic insulations, which can make shopping confusing. A more relevant distinction is knowing whether a synthetic insulator is short-staple or continuous filament.

Short-staple insulations feature short strands of fine-denier filaments that are densely packed to minimize heat loss. This makes sleeping bags and jackets feel soft and flexible, much like down-filled products, and allows for great compressibility. They are, however, a bit less durable than continuous filament and the insulation can move around to create cold spots.

Continuous-filament insulations use a thicker continuous filament that is lofty, strong and durable. They tend to have a stiffer feel and are less compressible than short-staple insulations, but they stay in place so are less likely to create cold spots."

I would agree with that general definition. Even in the real world. If I take a sq yard each of a generic version (even if they both came from the same company) and handled them- the continuous filament would seem more durable. In simple handling of each, I would note pieces of the short staple coming off and tearing at the edges. If I tossed them as is into the washing machine- the short staple fill would degrade fairly quickly.

If I put them on a work bench and smashed them with my hand, eventually I could pulverize the short staple fill and/or reduce it's warmth. However, if I took a fresh piece and balled it up into the tightest ball I could, I might see a different result depending on the exact flavor or each used. If I repeated this, I might even find that while the continuous filament does do a good job of holding it's general shape, it didn't rebound and loft under this more extreme compression test as well as the short staple.

As to what REI and general wisdom/lab results have to say...
Yes- short staple fills will separate if left on their own, which would cause a shifting and cold spots- similar to an underfilled or damp down fill.

However- this assumes that you apply the same bag construction to each product. Both products are sold in a batt, similar to fabric.
Generally speaking a 100gsm (3 oz/yard) of each is roughly 5/8" thick and the size of a roll of fabric (60" wide or so by roll size).
So initially; synthetic products were made the same. Put a batt of insulation in between a shell and a liner and go.
In this scenario, short staple fills are inferior to continuous filament and damaged easily by compression, stress, or laundering (which is basically both).
I believe this is the basic (and correct) source of conventional wisdom on the topic.

Climbashield Apex vs. Primaloft Gold-

Apex is technically required to be quilted 24" OC- which it rarely if ever is in the cottage or MYOG gear world. Commercial bags using synthetics typically do follow this guideline. https://www.rei.com/product/894999/rei-trail-pod-29-sleeping-bag

So in real life, when looking at a larger piece of gear, there is more damage and potential for breakage of the filaments than you might find in the lab. Even though your quilt may be "loose stuffed" you still have to grab a hunk of it and shove it in. You still have to pull a corner out when you unpack it, and it still gets bounced around with your other gear. Parts of your bag are loose stuffed, likely a different part each day. You still tug on the top of the bag with your toes buried in the foot end, or pinch it hard and tug it around your shoulders. This type of spot compression is much like the ball it up into a tight wad kind of damage I describe above.
Technically, the only way you could guarantee that you were not over compressing the bag in general; would be to pack it in it's own stuff sack and strap it to the outside of your pack. Which is not very practical for most of us so not a very helpful suggestion.

With Primaloft (who does also make continuous filament insulations) you must start with the simple premise that there is an inherent limitation- extensive quilting requirements to stabilize the material.
The best example is the Patagonia Nano Puff- with it's signature "brick" quilt pattern. http://www.patagonia.com/nano-puff.html
This is very well known, highly respected, durable jacket. This jacket has a 3" x 6" quilting pattern and follows the guidelines of Primaloft. It has a lifetime warranty and can be laundered, abused, and still works.

Personally, I made quilts out of Apex for years before I bought one of these. After beating the crap out of the jacket for a few years; I wondered why I couldn't use this insulation in a quilt, and why others were not using it more often. The answer is pretty simple- quilting. The biggest advantage of Apex (and continuous filament) is that it is easy to work with, you can cut a piece and carry it to another part of your sewing shop just like any other material. And overall construction is pretty easy. In a piece of sleeping gear where you need larger amounts of insulation than clothing- using a short staple fill is more akin to down construction.

I had one very qualified outdoor gear oriented sewing contractor fail miserably to use it. I had another do well with it, they were a clothing producer, but they had to turn down the product to sew for my favorite outdoor brand and because of the labor time would not be able to handle my project. The labor cost per piece was at least double to sew a short staple versus a continuous filament- so overall it's cost prohibitive for most.

Assuming that you have applied the correct construction techniques to stabilize the Primaloft insulation- you then gain the packability and softer feel. Those are subjective- but the reason that Primaloft is used heavily in the best synthetic outdoor clothing.

Keep in mind- Loft is irrelevant in higher performance modern synthetics. I learned the Ray Way; 2" of stuff is 2" of stuff- but that is not the case with very high end fills. CLO is the measure of thermal efficiency used, not loft. 1 CLO= .88R for those familiar with R-values. So the one apples to apples spec that does stand out is the thermal efficiency.

Apex has .82 CLO per ounce per SY. Primaloft Gold is .92.
So to keep it simple- A
40* rated bag on the EE scale (everyone's is a hair different- but Tim's is good enough) requires 3.28 CLO or 4 oz/yd Apex.
If you could get it, you would only need 3.5 oz/yd PLG to do the same job.
On a three yard reg/reg EE quilt, that would be a 1.5 ounce difference- which is relatively large.

In the field-
http://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear-selection/topics/112908.html

This is perhaps one of my favorite threads on the topic. It actually involves the COO of Climbashield and several knowledgeable folks debating Apex vs Primaloft.
Similar discussions took place on BPL and other places that were interesting as well.

What is interesting is that Climbashield makes continuous filament synthetics. Primaloft produces both types of insulation. So they don't need to promote one over the other, they simply need to produce or recommend the correct product for the correct use. If you want a decent budget bag, then go with continuous filament. If you want a high end garment, then they push Primaloft Gold.

Again- a simple real world test many could relate to-
I own both a Nano-Puff and a Montbell UL down jacket. I baby the crap out of the MB, it still sheds down here and there and has more or less been relegated to my "dress jacket". I can't work in it because I sweat and due to the see thru shell, can actually see the down shriveling up or shifting within the baffles as a I move. So I get cold spots and fear damaging the jacket. Likely the MB will last me several years. I absolutely punish the Nano-puff. As a batting type of insulation it can't shift as I move. It won't wilt in humidity, rain, or sweat. I wash it once a month when active with it, wear it daily, put cigarette and campfire burns into it. Cut it, get it full of grease and dirt and... nothing. Still works. If it lasts a good few years under those conditions... what do you want. I don't have to think about it, baby it, or worry I'll trash it. I don't have to worry if it gets wet. If it gets dirty, the insulation won't absorb body oils and start to fail.

In real life;
Pack size is important for many backpackers.
Weight is important for many backpackers.
Cost is relevant (Apex is less than Primaloft, but Primaloft is cheaper than down)
Durability is a concern, but often a factor mitigated by many backpackers as a tradeoff for the above items.
Although most experienced folks generally agree- performance in the field regardless of cost eventually trumps all.

Primaloft Gold clothing has a very long standing and proven track record- it just needs to be built properly to maintain an adequate level of durability. I could extend that to other items that are simply used wrong.
Cuben is fairly durable, provided you avoid excessive abrasion.
Titanium is great for cookware, provided you don't cook in it.
A Gore-Tex membrane will last a decade or more and performs flawlessly in the lab; unfortunately the shell DWR coating will fail the first year and the liner or membrane can clog with body oil when you actually wear it.

Synthetic still is not down, it will break down eventually. However, as we've all noted before, using a piece of gear for 14 days a year for 10 years or a piece of gear 140 days in one year is the same thing. It still lasted 140 nights of use... so a good down bag lasting "for at least 10 years" is also a statement you should be a bit skeptical about, and take synthetics "durability" overall with a grain of salt for LD hiking.
If a sleeping bag made it 300 nights, I would expect the damn shell to rot out long before I then tried to say it would last you 10 nights a year for 30 years, even if the down could be recycled.

Modern synthetics simply haven't been around long enough to have established a good solid benchmark overall; most of what is known is from forum discussions like this from folks who actually use the stuff.
Apex has become the primary insulation as generally speaking; if you're going to the trouble just use down.

However; there is a "hole" in there. In summer type quilts, I personally believe that Primaloft Gold performs better than down; especially when in low loft situations like 40-60* the down is even more vulnerable to cold spots and other issues at lofts below 1.5". In addition, the shell to fill ratios are not very good when talking SUL pieces of gear.

The nice thing with PLG, is that if properly quilted, as it does break down it has less chance to migrate or shift as it does; it can rely on the shell materials to support it or even take on a role similar to down.
An Apex type product only relies on itself for stability(more so the farther you push the quilting spec); so as you pack/unpack and use and abuse your gear in real life- it behaves more like the steel wool I mentioned above.

WOW!!!! My brain is smoking.....JB you're in need of a new trail/forum name.........I'm at a loss for words.......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Secondmouse]

I 'd be interested in yer friend's opinions or anyone's really. I may be a liar, but I always appreciate the truth; even if it turns out I thought I had it and didn't. :D

This is really only something that has evolved from the MYOG end as there really is no commercial incentive to pursue it versus more conventional stuff for a larger vendor.
Market perception is still "Down is premium, synthetic is not" and by nearly any spec sheet you'd look at I'd have a hard time debating that perception on any thing but money.
It's really only very recent intersection of MYOG, online forums, the relatively small SUL community, recent advances in materials, material availability and the rise of the cottage vendor making any of this a possibility to even discuss.

Conventional wisdom is still pretty correct, but in a few non-conventional applications things are tricky at best. In a very narrow and specific application- we may have reached the mythical place where synthetic is equal to down.

However, once design is done, put the lab results on the shelf with the patterns and trust what folks are finding out in the field.
I think that's the next step.

well by "my friend" I don't mean anyone other than a friend of mine who shares my interest in these type of gear discussions. I didn't mean to imply any type of authority.

but I do know of a discussion among some other well experienced fellows on another site that I'd like to put your comments in front of. would you give me your permission to quote you and I will give you a link to the resulting comments?..

[Secondmouse]

Yar- tricky tricky. :D You are right on paper, wrong in real life... or we could both say the same depending on our experiences.

"Believe previously" does help qualify the statement- and it's not an incorrect one based upon previous experience depending on when you started learning. It also does back up the general literature and lab results.

If I were to add a better qualifier to my opinion- "Climbashield Apex products versus Primaloft Gold products" is probably in order. As is "When construction techniques and real world conditions are applied."

OK, so if I read this right, you are saying it's not necessarily if Climashield is better/worse that Primaloft, it is, does the construction technique used with the individual product make the best use of that particular insulator, correct?

I read several discussions over the years and they run together in my mind but somewhere I remember where TNF uses(ed) "shingling" of synthetic batts where one end of a short section is attached to the shell and the other end to the liner. this is repeated in a shingle fashion with these batts overlapping. is this an effective example of what you're hinting at above?..





http://blog.rei.com/camp/down-vs-synthetic-which-insulation-is-right-for-you/
REI can be handy for their relatively simple and concise articles... from this one-

"There are many competing brand names for synthetic insulations, which can make shopping confusing. A more relevant distinction is knowing whether a synthetic insulator is short-staple or continuous filament.

Short-staple insulations feature short strands of fine-denier filaments that are densely packed to minimize heat loss. This makes sleeping bags and jackets feel soft and flexible, much like down-filled products, and allows for great compressibility. They are, however, a bit less durable than continuous filament and the insulation can move around to create cold spots.

Continuous-filament insulations use a thicker continuous filament that is lofty, strong and durable. They tend to have a stiffer feel and are less compressible than short-staple insulations, but they stay in place so are less likely to create cold spots."

I would agree with that general definition. Even in the real world. If I take a sq yard each of a generic version (even if they both came from the same company) and handled them- the continuous filament would seem more durable. In simple handling of each, I would note pieces of the short staple coming off and tearing at the edges. If I tossed them as is into the washing machine- the short staple fill would degrade fairly quickly.

If I put them on a work bench and smashed them with my hand, eventually I could pulverize the short staple fill and/or reduce it's warmth. However, if I took a fresh piece and balled it up into the tightest ball I could, I might see a different result depending on the exact flavor or each used. If I repeated this, I might even find that while the continuous filament does do a good job of holding it's general shape, it didn't rebound and loft under this more extreme compression test as well as the short staple.

As to what REI and general wisdom/lab results have to say...
Yes- short staple fills will separate if left on their own, which would cause a shifting and cold spots- similar to an underfilled or damp down fill.

However- this assumes that you apply the same bag construction to each product. Both products are sold in a batt, similar to fabric.
Generally speaking a 100gsm (3 oz/yard) of each is roughly 5/8" thick and the size of a roll of fabric (60" wide or so by roll size).
So initially; synthetic products were made the same. Put a batt of insulation in between a shell and a liner and go.
In this scenario, short staple fills are inferior to continuous filament and damaged easily by compression, stress, or laundering (which is basically both).
I believe this is the basic (and correct) source of conventional wisdom on the topic.

Climbashield Apex vs. Primaloft Gold-

Apex is technically required to be quilted 24" OC- which it rarely if ever is in the cottage or MYOG gear world. Commercial bags using synthetics typically do follow this guideline. https://www.rei.com/product/894999/rei-trail-pod-29-sleeping-bag

So in real life, when looking at a larger piece of gear, there is more damage and potential for breakage of the filaments than you might find in the lab. Even though your quilt may be "loose stuffed" you still have to grab a hunk of it and shove it in. You still have to pull a corner out when you unpack it, and it still gets bounced around with your other gear. Parts of your bag are loose stuffed, likely a different part each day. You still tug on the top of the bag with your toes buried in the foot end, or pinch it hard and tug it around your shoulders. This type of spot compression is much like the ball it up into a tight wad kind of damage I describe above.
Technically, the only way you could guarantee that you were not over compressing the bag in general; would be to pack it in it's own stuff sack and strap it to the outside of your pack. Which is not very practical for most of us so not a very helpful suggestion.


I have a fairly new 40* Climashield quilt from a respected maker. it is not quilted or stitched in any location except the edges and at first I felt lack of sewn-through was beneficial but honestly it is kind of annoying as it has no structure and is difficult to get ahold of, if you know what I mean. to move it around you can't just pinch the shell in your fingers as the insulation and liner won't move. you have to grab a handful of shell, insulator and liner to tuck in or adjust the quilt around your shoulders, etc.. it's a pain...

and funny enough, the "handling" of this quilt got better near the end of my trip after being used and then stuffed into the bottom of my bag each day. it is obvious that it does not still have the initial loft and this makes it easier to grab.


With Primaloft (who does also make continuous filament insulations) you must start with the simple premise that there is an inherent limitation- extensive quilting requirements to stabilize the material.
The best example is the Patagonia Nano Puff- with it's signature "brick" quilt pattern. http://www.patagonia.com/nano-puff.html
This is very well known, highly respected, durable jacket. This jacket has a 3" x 6" quilting pattern and follows the guidelines of Primaloft. It has a lifetime warranty and can be laundered, abused, and still works.

Personally, I made quilts out of Apex for years before I bought one of these. After beating the crap out of the jacket for a few years; I wondered why I couldn't use this insulation in a quilt, and why others were not using it more often. The answer is pretty simple- quilting. The biggest advantage of Apex (and continuous filament) is that it is easy to work with, you can cut a piece and carry it to another part of your sewing shop just like any other material. And overall construction is pretty easy. In a piece of sleeping gear where you need larger amounts of insulation than clothing- using a short staple fill is more akin to down construction.

I had one very qualified outdoor gear oriented sewing contractor fail miserably to use it. I had another do well with it, they were a clothing producer, but they had to turn down the product to sew for my favorite outdoor brand and because of the labor time would not be able to handle my project. The labor cost per piece was at least double to sew a short staple versus a continuous filament- so overall it's cost prohibitive for most.

Assuming that you have applied the correct construction techniques to stabilize the Primaloft insulation- you then gain the packability and softer feel. Those are subjective- but the reason that Primaloft is used heavily in the best synthetic outdoor clothing.

Keep in mind- Loft is irrelevant in higher performance modern synthetics. I learned the Ray Way; 2" of stuff is 2" of stuff- but that is not the case with very high end fills. CLO is the measure of thermal efficiency used, not loft. 1 CLO= .88R for those familiar with R-values. So the one apples to apples spec that does stand out is the thermal efficiency.

Apex has .82 CLO per ounce per SY. Primaloft Gold is .92.
So to keep it simple- A
40* rated bag on the EE scale (everyone's is a hair different- but Tim's is good enough) requires 3.28 CLO or 4 oz/yd Apex.
If you could get it, you would only need 3.5 oz/yd PLG to do the same job.
On a three yard reg/reg EE quilt, that would be a 1.5 ounce difference- which is relatively large.


So, PG is more efficient per weight than CS. Two questions - does the extra quilt stitching and construction of PG make for a heavier overall garment than an unquilted CS?

and, does the sewn-through nature of PG quilting reduce the overall warmth of the garment compared to unquilted CS Apex quilt?



In the field-
http://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear-selection/topics/112908.html

This is perhaps one of my favorite threads on the topic. It actually involves the COO of Climbashield and several knowledgeable folks debating Apex vs Primaloft.
Similar discussions took place on BPL and other places that were interesting as well.

What is interesting is that Climbashield makes continuous filament synthetics. Primaloft produces both types of insulation. So they don't need to promote one over the other, they simply need to produce or recommend the correct product for the correct use. If you want a decent budget bag, then go with continuous filament. If you want a high end garment, then they push Primaloft Gold.

Again- a simple real world test many could relate to-
I own both a Nano-Puff and a Montbell UL down jacket. I baby the crap out of the MB, it still sheds down here and there and has more or less been relegated to my "dress jacket". I can't work in it because I sweat and due to the see thru shell, can actually see the down shriveling up or shifting within the baffles as a I move. So I get cold spots and fear damaging the jacket. Likely the MB will last me several years. I absolutely punish the Nano-puff. As a batting type of insulation it can't shift as I move. It won't wilt in humidity, rain, or sweat. I wash it once a month when active with it, wear it daily, put cigarette and campfire burns into it. Cut it, get it full of grease and dirt and... nothing. Still works. If it lasts a good few years under those conditions... what do you want. I don't have to think about it, baby it, or worry I'll trash it. I don't have to worry if it gets wet. If it gets dirty, the insulation won't absorb body oils and start to fail.

In real life;
Pack size is important for many backpackers.
Weight is important for many backpackers.
Cost is relevant (Apex is less than Primaloft, but Primaloft is cheaper than down)
Durability is a concern, but often a factor mitigated by many backpackers as a tradeoff for the above items.
Although most experienced folks generally agree- performance in the field regardless of cost eventually trumps all.

Primaloft Gold clothing has a very long standing and proven track record- it just needs to be built properly to maintain an adequate level of durability. I could extend that to other items that are simply used wrong.
Cuben is fairly durable, provided you avoid excessive abrasion.
Titanium is great for cookware, provided you don't cook in it.
A Gore-Tex membrane will last a decade or more and performs flawlessly in the lab; unfortunately the shell DWR coating will fail the first year and the liner or membrane can clog with body oil when you actually wear it.

Synthetic still is not down, it will break down eventually. However, as we've all noted before, using a piece of gear for 14 days a year for 10 years or a piece of gear 140 days in one year is the same thing. It still lasted 140 nights of use... so a good down bag lasting "for at least 10 years" is also a statement you should be a bit skeptical about, and take synthetics "durability" overall with a grain of salt for LD hiking.
If a sleeping bag made it 300 nights, I would expect the damn shell to rot out long before I then tried to say it would last you 10 nights a year for 30 years, even if the down could be recycled.

Modern synthetics simply haven't been around long enough to have established a good solid benchmark overall; most of what is known is from forum discussions like this from folks who actually use the stuff.
Apex has become the primary insulation as generally speaking; if you're going to the trouble just use down.

However; there is a "hole" in there. In summer type quilts, I personally believe that Primaloft Gold performs better than down; especially when in low loft situations like 40-60* the down is even more vulnerable to cold spots and other issues at lofts below 1.5". In addition, the shell to fill ratios are not very good when talking SUL pieces of gear.

The nice thing with PLG, is that if properly quilted, as it does break down it has less chance to migrate or shift as it does; it can rely on the shell materials to support it or even take on a role similar to down.
An Apex type product only relies on itself for stability(more so the farther you push the quilting spec); so as you pack/unpack and use and abuse your gear in real life- it behaves more like the steel wool I mentioned above.

"Titanium is great for cookware, provided you don't cook in it." HA!...

when it came time to buy one, my uneducated hunches mirrored your thoughts on cold spots with down in summer-weight quilts. I also felt that the increased weight of synthetic vs down would be more acceptable in a summer-weight since there would be less of it and overall garment weight would still be manageable.

CS Apex is the default synthetic for these applications but I find my 40* quilt bulky (bulkier than my 20* down sleeping bag) and the lack of structure of the non-quilted garment to be irritating.

Performance, pack size, and weight are issues for me. cost is not inconsequential. if I understand where you are heading with this, PG is a better alternative than CS Apex in packability, and in warmth providing proper construction techniques are used. However, this renders products made with this more expensive.

additionally, PG should also be considered superior to down in a summer weight quilt because of down's issues with light fills.

it could be a good middle ground provided it's not significantly more expensive and I could satisfy myself regarding the answers to the overall weight of quilted PG vs unquilted CS, and efficiency due to sewn-thru design.

[Just Bill]

well by "my friend" I don't mean anyone other than a friend of mine who shares my interest in these type of gear discussions. I didn't mean to imply any type of authority.

but I do know of a discussion among some other well experienced fellows on another site that I'd like to put your comments in front of. would you give me your permission to quote you and I will give you a link to the resulting comments?..

Here, BPL (rarely), and hammock forums are about it fer me, I'd prefer my comments be in a place I could participate but if there is some other place you want to use them that's probably fine, just let me know where and maybe I could join in.

i suppose im on Facebook too, but other than making a sarcastic comment I find it hard to follow a conversation there.

[Just Bill]

see below


OK, so if I read this right, you are saying it's not necessarily if Climashield is better/worse that Primaloft, it is, does the construction technique used with the individual product make the best use of that particular insulator, correct?
both are good products with different properties, strengths and weaknesses. As it stands; general wisdom is that PLG for apparel and Apex for sleeping gear would be a decent summary of current standards. IF: you narrow the discussion to a very specific application you could say one is better than the other. Qualifying that of course with the caveat that "better" is an opinion Or at best a consensus.

I read several discussions over the years and they run together in my mind but somewhere I remember where TNF uses(ed) "shingling" of synthetic batts where one end of a short section is attached to the shell and the other end to the liner. this is repeated in a shingle fashion with these batts overlapping. is this an effective example of what you're hinting at above?..

http://www.trailspace.com/articles/sleeping-bag-construction-baffles-shingles.html#synthetic

a good summary with good illustrations here, this would not be effective for PLG.

Shingling is effective for continuous filament quilts; the primary advantage being that if you look closely; at any given point you have several layers of insulation. This would let you build a cold temp bag better and allow more flexible batts of say 2.oz to be used rather than a single ridgid 6-8oz layer. The North face cats meow at 20* is the first bag I recall using that innovation to build a better winter synthetic. It packed better and weighed less at the time... The bag has since been dumbed down over the years to be a budget bag I believe. I worked for TNF in the 90's before it got sold to VF Corp and things changed.

I have a fairly new 40* Climashield quilt from a respected maker. it is not quilted or stitched in any location except the edges and at first I felt lack of sewn-through was beneficial but honestly it is kind of annoying as it has no structure and is difficult to get ahold of, if you know what I mean. to move it around you can't just pinch the shell in your fingers as the insulation and liner won't move. you have to grab a handful of shell, insulator and liner to tuck in or adjust the quilt around your shoulders, etc.. it's a pain...

and funny enough, the "handling" of this quilt got better near the end of my trip after being used and then stuffed into the bottom of my bag each day. it is obvious that it does not still have the initial loft and this makes it easier to grab.

Some call it "perimeter" or unquilted; as you say when you grab it at any point but the edge, it is unsupported. This has an economic advantage in labor to produce. It bends the manufacturing guidelines and puts more stress on the insulation itself

Your observation on handling is what I was trying to illustrate either the steel wool example. Apex is stiff out of the box so to speak...now how much you've lost, that's hard to quantify. It is clear to most though that some degradation has occurred and "the clock started ticking" regarding maintaing the intended rating.

So, PG is more efficient per weight than CS. Two questions - does the extra quilt stitching and construction of PG make for a heavier overall garment than an unquilted CS?

construction specific really, not yes or no. Mine come in at or even with EE. So fer conversation sake; call it a wash until you can look apples to apples.

and, does the sewn-through nature of PG quilting reduce the overall warmth of the garment compared to unquilted CS Apex quilt?


same answer, but a very good question and source of debate. I'd like to think I solved this issue, but don't have enough of my quilts in the wild to say.


"Titanium is great for cookware, provided you don't cook in it." HA!...

when it came time to buy one, my uneducated hunches mirrored your thoughts on cold spots with down in summer-weight quilts. I also felt that the increased weight of synthetic vs down would be more acceptable in a summer-weight since there would be less of it and overall garment weight would still be manageable.
Baffle weight (shell material) is the key...roughly 35-45* is the breakpoint depending on construction with PLG, with Apex I think closer to 55*
CS Apex is the default synthetic for these applications but I find my 40* quilt bulky (bulkier than my 20* down sleeping bag) and the lack of structure of the non-quilted garment to be irritating. me too, lol

Performance, pack size, and weight are issues for me. cost is not inconsequential. if I understand where you are heading with this, PG is a better alternative than CS Apex in packability, and in warmth providing proper construction techniques are used. However, this renders products made with this more expensive. more than Apex yes, but roughly 1/3 to 1/2 down (in my case)

additionally, PG should also be considered superior to down in a summer weight quilt because of down's issues with light fills. Yes, but that is too complicated to answer on my cellphone

it could be a good middle ground provided it's not significantly more expensive and I could satisfy myself regarding the answers to the overall weight of quilted PG vs unquilted CS, and efficiency due to sewn-thru design.

if you make it, it is the same cost roughly for materials. Labor is double or equal to down.

i hope to open at roughly 20% off with my stuff, which would put the product even with Apex. Basically $150-160 shipped for a regular 45* quilt or roughly 14 ounces. Similar or equal paced size of 800/850 down. But $180s for 45* and $250 or so for 25* is a more sustainable price Ballpark.

i can hit 12 oz but that won't beat some of the 950 wonder bags out there, though I'd debate thier effective rating in the real world after a bit of use or drop of humidity. That and $300-$450 price makes them a spec sheet more than a real piece of gear folks would use.

the 45* is really the one to highlight as the best potential to rival or equal down in my narrow and specific construction and design. I think any shortfall on the specs would be easily forgiven when price tag is a factor.

[Secondmouse]

if you make it, it is the same cost roughly for materials. Labor is double or equal to down.

i hope to open at roughly 20% off with my stuff, which would put the product even with Apex. Basically $150-160 shipped for a regular 45* quilt or roughly 14 ounces. Similar or equal paced size of 800/850 down. But $180s for 45* and $250 or so for 25* is a more sustainable price Ballpark.

i can hit 12 oz but that won't beat some of the 950 wonder bags out there, though I'd debate thier effective rating in the real world after a bit of use or drop of humidity. That and $300-$450 price makes them a spec sheet more than a real piece of gear folks would use.

the 45* is really the one to highlight as the best potential to rival or equal down in my narrow and specific construction and design. I think any shortfall on the specs would be easily forgiven when price tag is a factor.

ok, wait... I was going to ask if Primaloft Gold is arguably better than Climashield, why do I not see any PL quilts made?

now, you are saying you are going to manuf?.. is this a recent development or are/have you been doing this for awhile? (apologies if I am too ignorant for words)

the prices you quote are in line with what I have for Apex gear. I would love to be among the first to try a PL quilt based on my annoyance at the blousy, loose, unstructured "hand" of CS Apex gear...

[Traillium]

Geez, do you ship to Canada? I, too, am interested!


Bruce Traillium

[Just Bill]

ok, wait... I was going to ask if Primaloft Gold is arguably better than Climashield, why do I not see any PL quilts made?

now, you are saying you are going to manuf?.. is this a recent development or are/have you been doing this for awhile? (apologies if I am too ignorant for words)

the prices you quote are in line with what I have for Apex gear. I would love to be among the first to try a PL quilt based on my annoyance at the blousy, loose, unstructured "hand" of CS Apex gear...

:D
read post #5

Basically;they are hard to make, I was almost in production twice now, so hoping third time is the charm, lol.

its been a couple years of work and a good 20k thus far. I raised another 60k and just yesterday found shop space to rent. I am strongly considering buying a 5-20k commercial quilting machine and self producing them, but that isn't set in stone yet.

I got kiddos and a Mrs. So as they say, don't quit yer day job yet, so this is a part time thing subject to a fairly demanding 50-80 hour a week real job. I hope to go into prototype work this fall and maybe be in biz this spring. As of now; round one of prototypes are out to about a dozen testers, and I've used one personally a good 150 nights. So they do exist and seem to work and hold up so far. Either I can find somebody to sew them, sew em myself, or call it a day.

Not much here but, www.thisgearsforyou.com will be the place when there is.

[Just Bill]

Geez, do you ship to Canada? I, too, am interested!


Bruce Traillium

shipped a few things to OZ, not sure why Canada wouldn't work if shipping was covered.
But cart before the horse at this point

[Just Bill]

Also- just to be clear...

I hope it doesn't come across that I am trashing Apex in any way. It is not a bad product and has it's place. Like any technology; new products (or uses) are brought to market that potentially bump the previous "best". I personally think that used correctly, Primaloft GOLD (not silver, or black, or infinity) has made a small leap and could be better in some applications.

More directly- Tim Marshall at Enlightened Equipment founded a quality company and makes good products. I wouldn't be sewing any synthetic bags (nor would many MYOG folks) without his help and contributions at BPL and other places. He makes one of the best down quilts you can buy, and probably the best Apex product you could buy. He was one of the first to drop his prices when the down shortage ended and pass that right to his customers when other vendors (even cottage ones) were not willing to do so. The general point of synthetics has always been a cost advantage over down, Tim's Apex product (Prodigy) balances cost, weight, and durability. It's not a tanker truck overbuilt car camping bag- but a functional lightweight bag at about half the cost of down.

As to the initial dip of performance I mentioned in using Apex the first few times... It's there, it's not any big secret.
EE's rating system is conservative. It'd be hard to prove on paper, but I do know enough about Apex to say that the rating system they use takes this into account. I have taken brand new Apex bags out that performed 10-15 degrees beyond the rating system Tim uses, I have pushed 2.5 Apex quilts into the low thirties for a few speed trips knowing full well that the clock was ticking fast on that rating.

Point being:
I do know for a fact that EE could claim a higher rating for their Apex quilts; and they could produce some lab reports to back it up.
It takes some balls and a bit of courage to put your name and reputation to temperature rating for a piece of sleeping gear; even the EN rating system is as much subjectivity as it is science.
It takes even more guts to go out on your own limb and establish a rating for a product like Apex.

Like I said, no secret the Apex will loosen up a bit after a few uses and EE chose a rating system that reflects actual field results, experience, testing, and honesty.

A good fella started a good company that does a great service to many outdoorsfolk- I don't want any comments I make to reflect anything but that.
They've found a way to mass produce some very complicated down gear, innovate along the way, and drive down the cost in the process.
They could easily charge $50-$100 more for the down bags they produce, especially in light of long waiting lines and what others charge.

If I come up with one (fairly specialized) synthetic quilt- good for all of us; but as it stands Enlightened Equipment is the best available synthetic quilt.

[Secondmouse]

:D
read post #5

Basically;they are hard to make, I was almost in production twice now, so hoping third time is the charm, lol.

its been a couple years of work and a good 20k thus far. I raised another 60k and just yesterday found shop space to rent. I am strongly considering buying a 5-20k commercial quilting machine and self producing them, but that isn't set in stone yet.

I got kiddos and a Mrs. So as they say, don't quit yer day job yet, so this is a part time thing subject to a fairly demanding 50-80 hour a week real job. I hope to go into prototype work this fall and maybe be in biz this spring. As of now; round one of prototypes are out to about a dozen testers, and I've used one personally a good 150 nights. So they do exist and seem to work and hold up so far. Either I can find somebody to sew them, sew em myself, or call it a day.

Not much here but, www.thisgearsforyou.com (http://www.thisgearsforyou.com) will be the place when there is.

I read your other thread. significant challenges and what you're doing is pretty ambitious so it seems to me you're well convinced of the benefits of this model. almost, without seeing one, I'm persuaded to send you a check for the next one off the line. almost...

do you have any pics? what is the construction of the footbox?

why do you rate your quilt at 45* and 25* when others seem to go for round numbers - 40*, 20*, etc., and how confident are you of these ratings?

very interested at this point. if this is too much of a thread hijack, can we move over to your other thread to continue discussion?..

[Secondmouse]

Also- just to be clear...

I hope it doesn't come across that I am trashing Apex in any way. It is not a bad product and has it's place. Like any technology; new products (or uses) are brought to market that potentially bump the previous "best". I personally think that used correctly, Primaloft GOLD (not silver, or black, or infinity) has made a small leap and could be better in some applications.

More directly- Tim Marshall at Enlightened Equipment founded a quality company and makes good products. I wouldn't be sewing any synthetic bags (nor would many MYOG folks) without his help and contributions at BPL and other places. He makes one of the best down quilts you can buy, and probably the best Apex product you could buy. He was one of the first to drop his prices when the down shortage ended and pass that right to his customers when other vendors (even cottage ones) were not willing to do so. The general point of synthetics has always been a cost advantage over down, Tim's Apex product (Prodigy) balances cost, weight, and durability. It's not a tanker truck overbuilt car camping bag- but a functional lightweight bag at about half the cost of down.

As to the initial dip of performance I mentioned in using Apex the first few times... It's there, it's not any big secret.
EE's rating system is conservative. It'd be hard to prove on paper, but I do know enough about Apex to say that the rating system they use takes this into account. I have taken brand new Apex bags out that performed 10-15 degrees beyond the rating system Tim uses, I have pushed 2.5 Apex quilts into the low thirties for a few speed trips knowing full well that the clock was ticking fast on that rating.

Point being:
I do know for a fact that EE could claim a higher rating for their Apex quilts; and they could produce some lab reports to back it up.
It takes some balls and a bit of courage to put your name and reputation to temperature rating for a piece of sleeping gear; even the EN rating system is as much subjectivity as it is science.
It takes even more guts to go out on your own limb and establish a rating for a product like Apex.

Like I said, no secret the Apex will loosen up a bit after a few uses and EE chose a rating system that reflects actual field results, experience, testing, and honesty.

A good fella started a good company that does a great service to many outdoorsfolk- I don't want any comments I make to reflect anything but that.
They've found a way to mass produce some very complicated down gear, innovate along the way, and drive down the cost in the process.
They could easily charge $50-$100 more for the down bags they produce, especially in light of long waiting lines and what others charge.

If I come up with one (fairly specialized) synthetic quilt- good for all of us; but as it stands Enlightened Equipment is the best available synthetic quilt.

I never took it that you were badmouthing either CS Apex, and that's specifically why I asked you to clarify that different types of insulation had different strengths based on how the garment was constructed.

you pointed out the situational strength/weakness of each and highlighted what is to me, a very important distinction, which is the bulk in packing and the specific "hand" of the quilted vs the unquilted garment. (can I call a sleeping bag/quilt a garment?)..

and I never saw that you were in any way maligning Tim or EE in anything you've ever written so no worries there.

I look forward to carrying on this conversation wherever...

[Another Kevin]

Titanium is great for cookware, provided you don't cook in it.

I just about fell out of my chair when I saw that line. ROFL! http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/teletubbiescentral/images/d/d7/ROFL_Smiley.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130207194020


WOW!!!! My brain is smoking.....JB you're in need of a new trail/forum name.........I'm at a loss for words.......

You should hear it when JB and I get to talking about this stuff. I'm an enginerd, so I actually had to pass a course in thermogoddammits once upon a time. I think I scared him off with the equations. ;)

[Just Bill]

I never took it that you were badmouthing either CS Apex, and that's specifically why I asked you to clarify that different types of insulation had different strengths based on how the garment was constructed.

you pointed out the situational strength/weakness of each and highlighted what is to me, a very important distinction, which is the bulk in packing and the specific "hand" of the quilted vs the unquilted garment. (can I call a sleeping bag/quilt a garment?)..

and I never saw that you were in any way maligning Tim or EE in anything you've ever written so no worries there.

I look forward to carrying on this conversation wherever...

Guess I'd rather be overly cautious...
I understand how hard it is just to get going, let alone build a rep like EE and don't want to take anything away from that.

[Just Bill]

I read your other thread. significant challenges and what you're doing is pretty ambitious so it seems to me you're well convinced of the benefits of this model. almost, without seeing one, I'm persuaded to send you a check for the next one off the line. almost...

do you have any pics? what is the construction of the footbox?

why do you rate your quilt at 45* and 25* when others seem to go for round numbers - 40*, 20*, etc., and how confident are you of these ratings?

very interested at this point. if this is too much of a thread hijack, can we move over to your other thread to continue discussion?..

Yar- seems a bit of self-moderation is in order-
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/113531-Town-s-End-Update-advice-questions?p=2085434#post2085434

[Just Bill]

I just about fell out of my chair when I saw that line. ROFL! http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/teletubbiescentral/images/d/d7/ROFL_Smiley.gif/revision/latest?cb=20130207194020



You should hear it when JB and I get to talking about this stuff. I'm an enginerd, so I actually had to pass a course in thermogoddammits once upon a time. I think I scared him off with the equations. ;)

LOL- Hope yer doing well my friend!

Realized I was a bit over my head on some of that math and didn't wish to waste your time until I got further along... Slowly my carpenter brain is getting the framework up.
I hope to get a chance to write something up in the next few months and still would greatly value your opinion and help. I wasn't planning on passing the final exam at Backpacking Light, but didn't want the bit of dabbling I did to be too far off track.

[Secondmouse]

Yar- tricky tricky. :D You are right on paper, wrong in real life... or we could both say the same depending on our experiences.

"Believe previously" does help qualify the statement- and it's not an incorrect one based upon previous experience depending on when you started learning. It also does back up the general literature and lab results.

If I were to add a better qualifier to my opinion- "Climbashield Apex products versus Primaloft Gold products" is probably in order. As is "When construction techniques and real world conditions are applied."

http://blog.rei.com/camp/down-vs-synthetic-which-insulation-is-right-for-you/
REI can be handy for their relatively simple and concise articles... from this one-

"There are many competing brand names for synthetic insulations, which can make shopping confusing. A more relevant distinction is knowing whether a synthetic insulator is short-staple or continuous filament.

Short-staple insulations feature short strands of fine-denier filaments that are densely packed to minimize heat loss. This makes sleeping bags and jackets feel soft and flexible, much like down-filled products, and allows for great compressibility. They are, however, a bit less durable than continuous filament and the insulation can move around to create cold spots.

Continuous-filament insulations use a thicker continuous filament that is lofty, strong and durable. They tend to have a stiffer feel and are less compressible than short-staple insulations, but they stay in place so are less likely to create cold spots."

I would agree with that general definition. Even in the real world. If I take a sq yard each of a generic version (even if they both came from the same company) and handled them- the continuous filament would seem more durable. In simple handling of each, I would note pieces of the short staple coming off and tearing at the edges. If I tossed them as is into the washing machine- the short staple fill would degrade fairly quickly.

If I put them on a work bench and smashed them with my hand, eventually I could pulverize the short staple fill and/or reduce it's warmth. However, if I took a fresh piece and balled it up into the tightest ball I could, I might see a different result depending on the exact flavor or each used. If I repeated this, I might even find that while the continuous filament does do a good job of holding it's general shape, it didn't rebound and loft under this more extreme compression test as well as the short staple.

As to what REI and general wisdom/lab results have to say...
Yes- short staple fills will separate if left on their own, which would cause a shifting and cold spots- similar to an underfilled or damp down fill.

However- this assumes that you apply the same bag construction to each product. Both products are sold in a batt, similar to fabric.
Generally speaking a 100gsm (3 oz/yard) of each is roughly 5/8" thick and the size of a roll of fabric (60" wide or so by roll size).
So initially; synthetic products were made the same. Put a batt of insulation in between a shell and a liner and go.
In this scenario, short staple fills are inferior to continuous filament and damaged easily by compression, stress, or laundering (which is basically both).
I believe this is the basic (and correct) source of conventional wisdom on the topic.

Climbashield Apex vs. Primaloft Gold-

Apex is technically required to be quilted 24" OC- which it rarely if ever is in the cottage or MYOG gear world. Commercial bags using synthetics typically do follow this guideline. https://www.rei.com/product/894999/rei-trail-pod-29-sleeping-bag

So in real life, when looking at a larger piece of gear, there is more damage and potential for breakage of the filaments than you might find in the lab. Even though your quilt may be "loose stuffed" you still have to grab a hunk of it and shove it in. You still have to pull a corner out when you unpack it, and it still gets bounced around with your other gear. Parts of your bag are loose stuffed, likely a different part each day. You still tug on the top of the bag with your toes buried in the foot end, or pinch it hard and tug it around your shoulders. This type of spot compression is much like the ball it up into a tight wad kind of damage I describe above.
Technically, the only way you could guarantee that you were not over compressing the bag in general; would be to pack it in it's own stuff sack and strap it to the outside of your pack. Which is not very practical for most of us so not a very helpful suggestion.

With Primaloft (who does also make continuous filament insulations) you must start with the simple premise that there is an inherent limitation- extensive quilting requirements to stabilize the material.
The best example is the Patagonia Nano Puff- with it's signature "brick" quilt pattern. http://www.patagonia.com/nano-puff.html
This is very well known, highly respected, durable jacket. This jacket has a 3" x 6" quilting pattern and follows the guidelines of Primaloft. It has a lifetime warranty and can be laundered, abused, and still works.

Personally, I made quilts out of Apex for years before I bought one of these. After beating the crap out of the jacket for a few years; I wondered why I couldn't use this insulation in a quilt, and why others were not using it more often. The answer is pretty simple- quilting. The biggest advantage of Apex (and continuous filament) is that it is easy to work with, you can cut a piece and carry it to another part of your sewing shop just like any other material. And overall construction is pretty easy. In a piece of sleeping gear where you need larger amounts of insulation than clothing- using a short staple fill is more akin to down construction.

I had one very qualified outdoor gear oriented sewing contractor fail miserably to use it. I had another do well with it, they were a clothing producer, but they had to turn down the product to sew for my favorite outdoor brand and because of the labor time would not be able to handle my project. The labor cost per piece was at least double to sew a short staple versus a continuous filament- so overall it's cost prohibitive for most.

Assuming that you have applied the correct construction techniques to stabilize the Primaloft insulation- you then gain the packability and softer feel. Those are subjective- but the reason that Primaloft is used heavily in the best synthetic outdoor clothing.

Keep in mind- Loft is irrelevant in higher performance modern synthetics. I learned the Ray Way; 2" of stuff is 2" of stuff- but that is not the case with very high end fills. CLO is the measure of thermal efficiency used, not loft. 1 CLO= .88R for those familiar with R-values. So the one apples to apples spec that does stand out is the thermal efficiency.

Apex has .82 CLO per ounce per SY. Primaloft Gold is .92.
So to keep it simple- A
40* rated bag on the EE scale (everyone's is a hair different- but Tim's is good enough) requires 3.28 CLO or 4 oz/yd Apex.
If you could get it, you would only need 3.5 oz/yd PLG to do the same job.
On a three yard reg/reg EE quilt, that would be a 1.5 ounce difference- which is relatively large.

In the field-
http://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear-selection/topics/112908.html

This is perhaps one of my favorite threads on the topic. It actually involves the COO of Climbashield and several knowledgeable folks debating Apex vs Primaloft.
Similar discussions took place on BPL and other places that were interesting as well.

What is interesting is that Climbashield makes continuous filament synthetics. Primaloft produces both types of insulation. So they don't need to promote one over the other, they simply need to produce or recommend the correct product for the correct use. If you want a decent budget bag, then go with continuous filament. If you want a high end garment, then they push Primaloft Gold.

Again- a simple real world test many could relate to-
I own both a Nano-Puff and a Montbell UL down jacket. I baby the crap out of the MB, it still sheds down here and there and has more or less been relegated to my "dress jacket". I can't work in it because I sweat and due to the see thru shell, can actually see the down shriveling up or shifting within the baffles as a I move. So I get cold spots and fear damaging the jacket. Likely the MB will last me several years. I absolutely punish the Nano-puff. As a batting type of insulation it can't shift as I move. It won't wilt in humidity, rain, or sweat. I wash it once a month when active with it, wear it daily, put cigarette and campfire burns into it. Cut it, get it full of grease and dirt and... nothing. Still works. If it lasts a good few years under those conditions... what do you want. I don't have to think about it, baby it, or worry I'll trash it. I don't have to worry if it gets wet. If it gets dirty, the insulation won't absorb body oils and start to fail.

In real life;
Pack size is important for many backpackers.
Weight is important for many backpackers.
Cost is relevant (Apex is less than Primaloft, but Primaloft is cheaper than down)
Durability is a concern, but often a factor mitigated by many backpackers as a tradeoff for the above items.
Although most experienced folks generally agree- performance in the field regardless of cost eventually trumps all.

Primaloft Gold clothing has a very long standing and proven track record- it just needs to be built properly to maintain an adequate level of durability. I could extend that to other items that are simply used wrong.
Cuben is fairly durable, provided you avoid excessive abrasion.
Titanium is great for cookware, provided you don't cook in it.
A Gore-Tex membrane will last a decade or more and performs flawlessly in the lab; unfortunately the shell DWR coating will fail the first year and the liner or membrane can clog with body oil when you actually wear it.

Synthetic still is not down, it will break down eventually. However, as we've all noted before, using a piece of gear for 14 days a year for 10 years or a piece of gear 140 days in one year is the same thing. It still lasted 140 nights of use... so a good down bag lasting "for at least 10 years" is also a statement you should be a bit skeptical about, and take synthetics "durability" overall with a grain of salt for LD hiking.
If a sleeping bag made it 300 nights, I would expect the damn shell to rot out long before I then tried to say it would last you 10 nights a year for 30 years, even if the down could be recycled.

Modern synthetics simply haven't been around long enough to have established a good solid benchmark overall; most of what is known is from forum discussions like this from folks who actually use the stuff.
Apex has become the primary insulation as generally speaking; if you're going to the trouble just use down.

However; there is a "hole" in there. In summer type quilts, I personally believe that Primaloft Gold performs better than down; especially when in low loft situations like 40-60* the down is even more vulnerable to cold spots and other issues at lofts below 1.5". In addition, the shell to fill ratios are not very good when talking SUL pieces of gear.

The nice thing with PLG, is that if properly quilted, as it does break down it has less chance to migrate or shift as it does; it can rely on the shell materials to support it or even take on a role similar to down.
An Apex type product only relies on itself for stability(more so the farther you push the quilting spec); so as you pack/unpack and use and abuse your gear in real life- it behaves more like the steel wool I mentioned above.

I find myself coming back and re-reading this time and time again. I'm getting ready to sell my EE 40* Prodigy Long/Wide quilt but I've got a few outings planned through Sept/Oct and don't want to end up short handed. Any ETA when you'll get yours up and running?..

[Just Bill]

35966

I find myself coming back and re-reading this time and time again. I'm getting ready to sell my EE 40* Prodigy Long/Wide quilt but I've got a few outings planned through Sept/Oct and don't want to end up short handed. Any ETA when you'll get yours up and running?..

Working on it, lol. I'm meeting with someone this evening to sign a lease on a space.
Gotta build a cutting table and set up my shop once I move in.

I have about a half dozen finished quilts in hand, but I'm using those for demos with sewing subs so I can't to sell them yet. And nobody wants the six or so personal ones I've been using :eek:

Drove out to Michigan this weekend to meet with a potential contractor to do quilting and that went well. I can do it but it takes me all day to hand pin and sew what the right equipment can rip off in an hour. I was thinking of buying one, but for the 20-40k machine cost I'd rather pay a skilled operator to own, maintain, and run it and this fella seems like a good fit. I left 45 yards of material for an initial quilting run but I won't get that back for at least 3 weeks or more.

Once I get that first batch back I'll have enough to make up at least a dozen quilts but I'd say October is likely for those actually ready to go out the door.

Realistically I'll be physically able to sew in early September but not sure if I can do quilts right away (I may be limited to hammocks and other stuff for a bit).

But any real quilt production will be at least 2 months out after that first run. Sewn goods moves slow... I'm scrambling now just hoping to be open in spring, lol.

Sew long story short- I may get a few made in September but I wouldn't plan a trip around that panning out.

I do have a box of demos I didn't go through... I should be able to lay that out this week to review them. If I luck out and there happens to be one in there that seems suitable I'll let you know.

[Secondmouse]

35966


Working on it, lol. I'm meeting with someone this evening to sign a lease on a space.
Gotta build a cutting table and set up my shop once I move in.

I have about a half dozen finished quilts in hand, but I'm using those for demos with sewing subs so I can't to sell them yet. And nobody wants the six or so personal ones I've been using :eek:

Drove out to Michigan this weekend to meet with a potential contractor to do quilting and that went well. I can do it but it takes me all day to hand pin and sew what the right equipment can rip off in an hour. I was thinking of buying one, but for the 20-40k machine cost I'd rather pay a skilled operator to own, maintain, and run it and this fella seems like a good fit. I left 45 yards of material for an initial quilting run but I won't get that back for at least 3 weeks or more.

Once I get that first batch back I'll have enough to make up at least a dozen quilts but I'd say October is likely for those actually ready to go out the door.

Realistically I'll be physically able to sew in early September but not sure if I can do quilts right away (I may be limited to hammocks and other stuff for a bit).

But any real quilt production will be at least 2 months out after that first run. Sewn goods moves slow... I'm scrambling now just hoping to be open in spring, lol.

Sew long story short- I may get a few made in September but I wouldn't plan a trip around that panning out.

I do have a box of demos I didn't go through... I should be able to lay that out this week to review them. If I luck out and there happens to be one in there that seems suitable I'll let you know.

hammocks? who told you we want hammocks???

:D

btw, your mail box is full again...