PDA

View Full Version : Winter thru hike.



Styles_for_miles
08-05-2016, 10:20
Does anyone know of anyone completing or attempting to they hike the LT in the winter? Or any info on it, I hike the white mountains year around and an avid winter hike/ice climber. Hiked the AT last year and leaving in April for the PCT but hiking the LT in October for a test run to the winter,
Thanks!
Styles


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

colorado_rob
08-05-2016, 10:33
That sounds really intriguing! I'll be following any responses. I'm attempting the LT in late September, way too early for such conditions, but I betcha my wife would love a winter attempt like this later (she retires in December, yay!)

Styles_for_miles
08-05-2016, 10:36
That sounds really intriguing! I'll be following any responses. I'm attempting the LT in late September, way too early for such conditions, but I betcha my wife would love a winter attempt like this later (she retires in December, yay!)

Sweet!! Yeah I'm hiking sobo starting the first of October, hopping to get some feedback on it, or would love to attempt it [emoji1591]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

colorado_rob
08-05-2016, 10:53
I might just lay down a nice, detailed GPS track on this September/October trip... might be useful on a winter attempt later. I suspect the LT will be difficult to follow in places in winter.

Tough call on what might be a better time for such an attempt. A late December start would probably have less snow to deal with, but much less daylight. Might not even need snowshoes then. A late February/early March start would have much more daylight, but probably lots of snow-swimming, and snow shoes required probably most of the way.

Deadeye
08-05-2016, 11:43
I've winter hiked portions of the LT, and as the guidebook makes clear, the trail is not contsructed or maintained for winter use. I know it's been attempted, but not sure it's been done. Here are some of the key issues:

1) The trail is maintained to be a green tunnel 4 feet wide and 8 feet tall (that's the ideal, not always achievable), so imagine what the trail is like when there's 4 feet of snow on the ground... you have to duckwalk.

2) the white blazes are often under snow, or obstructed by wind-blown snow on the tree trunks, eitehr way, they are white

3) I almost forgot - the branches overhead, when weighed down with snow, can totally obstruct the trail. branches that break or trees that fall aren't going to be cleared until next May.

4) the rock scrambles become ice scrambles

5)even in low snow years, like last winter, all that flowing water that gives Vermont the nickname Vermud, can make the trail solid ice

And more. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just realistic. some of the trail is stunning in winter, but much of it becomes a royal PITA to travel on. count on 1 mile per hour as a good pace in good conditions. GPS would be helpful for those times when 1 through 4 make the trail impossible to follow. Of course, parts are well-traveled in winter and are like a snow highway - it's all the connecting parts in between that have not been travelled that get real tough.

Go for it, just be prepared to work your tail off. I can't fully describe how difficult physically it can be. And anytime after Thanksgiving is going to have enough snow to require snowshoes.

colorado_rob
08-05-2016, 11:52
I've winter hiked portions of the LT, and as the guidebook makes clear, the trail is not contsructed or maintained for winter use. I know it's been attempted, but not sure it's been done. Here are some of the key issues:

1) The trail is maintained to be a green tunnel 4 feet wide and 8 feet tall (that's the ideal, not always achievable), so imagine what the trail is like when there's 4 feet of snow on the ground... you have to duckwalk.

2) the white blazes are often under snow, or obstructed by wind-blown snow on the tree trunks, eitehr way, they are white

3) I almost forgot - the branches overhead, when weighed down with snow, can totally obstruct the trail. branches that break or trees that fall aren't going to be cleared until next May.

4) the rock scrambles become ice scrambles

5)even in low snow years, like last winter, all that flowing water that gives Vermont the nickname Vermud, can make the trail solid ice

And more. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just realistic. some of the trail is stunning in winter, but much of it becomes a royal PITA to travel on. count on 1 mile per hour as a good pace in good conditions. GPS would be helpful for those times when 1 through 4 make the trail impossible to follow. Of course, parts are well-traveled in winter and are like a snow highway - it's all the connecting parts in between that have not been travelled that get real tough.

Go for it, just be prepared to work your tail off. I can't fully describe how difficult physically it can be. And anytime after Thanksgiving is going to have enough snow to require snowshoes.Thanks for all the good info! I'm 100% it's a real bear. Hence the appeal. I'm going to make copious notes, with an eye on what it would be like in winter, on my thru-attempt this fall.

Tipi Walter
08-05-2016, 12:05
Marine vet Thomas Gathman did it last year---

http://www.outsideonline.com/2052351/meet-man-hiking-appalachian-trail-winter

https://therealhikingviking.com/

He first pulled the Long Trail with a 60 lb pack in 9 days and then he started south from Maine. I kept up with his hike from December to January 16 when I lost interest due to his frequent town visits and occasional slackpacks. I know, it's butt cold up there in January. From the Outside article I expected a tough winter "expedition" style hike on the AT (less interrupted) and got a little misled.

Styles_for_miles
08-05-2016, 12:07
I've winter hiked portions of the LT, and as the guidebook makes clear, the trail is not contsructed or maintained for winter use. I know it's been attempted, but not sure it's been done. Here are some of the key issues:

1) The trail is maintained to be a green tunnel 4 feet wide and 8 feet tall (that's the ideal, not always achievable), so imagine what the trail is like when there's 4 feet of snow on the ground... you have to duckwalk.

2) the white blazes are often under snow, or obstructed by wind-blown snow on the tree trunks, eitehr way, they are white

3) I almost forgot - the branches overhead, when weighed down with snow, can totally obstruct the trail. branches that break or trees that fall aren't going to be cleared until next May.

4) the rock scrambles become ice scrambles

5)even in low snow years, like last winter, all that flowing water that gives Vermont the nickname Vermud, can make the trail solid ice

And more. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just realistic. some of the trail is stunning in winter, but much of it becomes a royal PITA to travel on. count on 1 mile per hour as a good pace in good conditions. GPS would be helpful for those times when 1 through 4 make the trail impossible to follow. Of course, parts are well-traveled in winter and are like a snow highway - it's all the connecting parts in between that have not been travelled that get real tough.

Go for it, just be prepared to work your tail off. I can't fully describe how difficult physically it can be. And anytime after Thanksgiving is going to have enough snow to require snowshoes.

Wow thanks for so much good info! Deff don't think it will be a walk in the park and ready for a challenge, I've never heard of anyone completing it yet in the winter months but really thinking of trying it after I take some notes for the northern section this October. Thanks again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Styles_for_miles
08-05-2016, 12:13
Marine vet Thomas Gathman did it last year---

http://www.outsideonline.com/2052351/meet-man-hiking-appalachian-trail-winter

https://therealhikingviking.com/

He first pulled the Long Trail with a 60 lb pack in 9 days and then he started south from Maine. I kept up with his hike from December to January 16 when I lost interest due to his frequent town visits and occasional slackpacks. I know, it's butt cold up there in January. From the Outside article I expected a tough winter "expedition" style hike on the AT (less interrupted) and got a little misled.

Yeah I followed his whole journey, but he didn't hike the whole LT, just the portion that the AT shares with it, still awesome, he stayed with my friends that own the Notch Hostel in north Woodstock, I've done multi nights in the white mountains at 0 degrees, thanks for the info! [emoji1305][emoji1591]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Slo-go'en
08-05-2016, 12:25
Well good luck. Last winter was an unusually low snow year and the AT segment of the LT is an order of magnitude easier then the northern end.

A much better plan would be to ski or snowshoe the Catamount trail, which parallels the LT at a lower elevation.

Styles_for_miles
08-05-2016, 12:29
Well good luck. Last winter was an unusually low snow year and the AT segment of the LT is an order of magnitude easier then the northern end.

A much better plan would be to ski or snowshoe the Catamount trail, which parallels the LT at a lower elevation.

I agree on the first part of this, southern portion is a lot easier, also it would be a better plan.. I guess haha but I rather take on a challenge and do something that will push my mind and body to its limits. [emoji4][emoji1591]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tipi Walter
08-05-2016, 12:36
I agree on the first part of this, southern portion is a lot easier, also it would be a better plan.. I guess haha but I rather take on a challenge and do something that will push my mind and body to its limits. [emoji4][emoji1591]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with the sentiment. Carry more food, stay out longer, (Eric Ryback hiked the AT in 1969 and carried 20 day food loads). As Deadeye says, you'll probably certainly hit a collapsed green tunnel full of Snowdowns. Daily mileage will go down to 4 if you're lucky. Postholing. Duck walking. But here's my point: Don't bail to the closest road and town!!! Stick with it, pull weather zeros on the trail in your tent, have at it. Come out a better man.

magic_game03
08-05-2016, 12:58
You will love the LT in early October, but by late October there will be snow on the ground. It is a very refreshing time of year with cool crisp air, some ice forming on the ponds, and great views with some of the autumn leaves still hanging around. The following is an AT Nobo thru, where it coincides with the southern half of the LT, in the first week of October.

Photos: Bromley Shelter, Stratton Pond, White Rock Cliffs (between Manchester and Killington.)

357073570835709

Styles_for_miles
08-05-2016, 13:03
You will love the LT in early October, but by late October there will be snow on the ground. It is a very refreshing time of year with cool crisp air, some ice forming on the ponds, and great views with some of the autumn leaves still hanging around. The following is an AT Nobo thru, where it coincides with the southern half of the LT, in the first week of October.

Photos: Bromley Shelter, Stratton Pond, White Rock Cliffs (between Manchester and Killington.)

357073570835709

Super excited to hike it, I stopped at that cabin when I thru hiked last year! Such a great spot! Thanks!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

colorado_rob
08-05-2016, 13:04
Wow thanks for so much good info! Deff don't think it will be a walk in the park and ready for a challenge, I've never heard of anyone completing it yet in the winter months but really thinking of trying it after I take some notes for the northern section this October. Thanks again.
Let's do compare notes after our respective fall hikes; sound like I'll be about 10 days ahead of you, starting Sept 20th.

I'm really intrigued by this challenge, but first things first; get it done in fall conditions, probably the easiest conditions possible!

Styles_for_miles
08-05-2016, 13:06
Let's do compare notes after our respective fall hikes; sound like I'll be about 10 days ahead of you, starting Sept 20th.

I'm really intrigued by this challenge, but first things first; get it done in fall conditions, probably the easiest conditions possible!

Deff agree with you, find me on Facebook or Instagram-egoodsyahknow


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LoneStranger
08-06-2016, 08:10
Let's do compare notes after our respective fall hikes; sound like I'll be about 10 days ahead of you, starting Sept 20th.

I'm really intrigued by this challenge, but first things first; get it done in fall conditions, probably the easiest conditions possible!

Winter thru would likely be so slow you'd finish in the Spring if the mud didn't get you. With skis, snowshoes and a good .gpx it could be done, but making only a few miles a day in spots really kills your food/miles efficiency. That means carrying more weight and wasting more time on resupply.

Speaking of slow LT thru hikes...I'm expecting to be doing a slow SOBO toddle starting in front of you by a week or so. Assuming you'll be in a hurry, but stop and say hi as you pass by :)

Slo-go'en
08-06-2016, 09:29
I snowshoed up Jay peak from 242 once. That couple mile climb breaking trail the whole way took a couple of hours - without a pack. Crossing the ski trail near the top to get to the actual summit was a challenge as to not getting mowed down by the skiers. The LT follows or crosses ski trails at several locations. You won't be able to spend the night in any of the warming huts when their in active use either.

colorado_rob
08-06-2016, 10:00
Winter thru would likely be so slow you'd finish in the Spring if the mud didn't get you. With skis, snowshoes and a good .gpx it could be done, but making only a few miles a day in spots really kills your food/miles efficiency. That means carrying more weight and wasting more time on resupply.

Speaking of slow LT thru hikes...I'm expecting to be doing a slow SOBO toddle starting in front of you by a week or so. Assuming you'll be in a hurry, but stop and say hi as you pass by :)Yeah, sure sounds like slow going for a lot of this trail, probably making this endeavor into a 5-6 week outing. My PR for a bitter cold winter outing is a mere 19 days, so longer than 3-4 weeks would be really tough for this old man. Maybe I should just plan a 3-4 week outing, get as far as we can in that time frame. I think there will be three of us, taking turns breaking trail, which helps quite a bit. I vividly remember a solo peak attempt one winter out here where I slogged 4-5 hours for a lousy 1.5 miles. I gave up realizing I'd not reach the summit before well after dark.

I wonder, however, what early winter might be like out there? I grew up back east, but have lived in CO so long, I've lost touch with winter patterns out there.... Here in CO, December is one of our driest months, and January can also be very dry. We get our big snow, typically, in Feb-April. Many years hiking in December involves actual dry ground, or shallow, fluffy snow, even up high. Are there years when the deep snow has yet to accumulate in December up in VT?

Anyway, Lonestranger, I won't be going fast on this fall's LT attempt, probably 10-13 MPD up north, a few MPD faster in the south, but I typically don't take zeros either. In any case, I doubt if I'll catch up with you having a week head start. Enjoy your hike, and thanks for all the thoughts!

Deadeye
08-06-2016, 12:49
Are there years when the deep snow has yet to accumulate in December up in VT?


Sure, there are some light years, like last year, but few and far between. Despite the small size of the state, there's often a huge difference from south to north and by elevation on any given day, especially in winter. The snow doesn't have to be all that deep to make a real difference in travel times and effort, and as someone above said, the LT is 3-4 weeks in summer, likely near double that in winter. I'd go, but be prepared to bail, you could get lucky!

Deadeye
08-06-2016, 12:51
And if you do go, send me a PM when the time comes - I might be able to help with transporting, resupplying or out-bailing.

Yukon
08-06-2016, 14:36
Man, some of those peaks up north are brutal just in the summer, I can't imagine how difficult it would be in the winter. There are places were it's literally straight up then down and it would be a hell of a challenge. You would be breaking trail for a large portion of the hike, especially in the north. And the cold, I mean COLD. I work for a ski resort in Vermont, and we see summit temps with wind chills FAR below zero. We hit -67 last year, that was a brutal night. I'm not one to stop anyone from a challenge, but this would have to be a very well planned undertaking with many emergency plans to get off the trail. Good luck and godspeed to anyone willing to attempt it!

colorado_rob
08-06-2016, 15:32
Man, some of those peaks up north are brutal just in the summer, I can't imagine how difficult it would be in the winter. There are places were it's literally straight up then down and it would be a hell of a challenge. You would be breaking trail for a large portion of the hike, especially in the north. And the cold, I mean COLD.Neither steep climbing in winter, nor bitter cold are of concern; it only takes the right gear and experience to surmount those obstacles. It's the duration of the attempt that is the grave concern. I doubt if I'm up for more than about 3-4 weeks of such conditions.


Sure, there are some light years, like last year, but few and far between. Despite the small size of the state, there's often a huge difference from south to north and by elevation on any given day, especially in winter. The snow doesn't have to be all that deep to make a real difference in travel times and effort, and as someone above said, the LT is 3-4 weeks in summer, likely near double that in winter. I'd go, but be prepared to bail, you could get lucky! Yeah, not looking too likely to have much of a chance to get something like this done in a month, but maybe just doing 3-4 weeks worth of the LT in winter would be very satisfying, however far that ends up being.


And if you do go, send me a PM when the time comes - I might be able to help with transporting, resupplying or out-bailing. Thanks!!!!

mark schofield
08-07-2016, 06:52
Hi OP.not trying to give advice. How many miles do you think you'll do a day? and what kind of shelter will you be using. Dawn to dusk in January is quite short, and things always seem to take longer when its cold. And the trail its self will be completely different. What a neat challenge. Please keep us posted,

egilbe
08-07-2016, 07:58
Hi OP.not trying to give advice. How many miles do you think you'll do a day? and what kind of shelter will you be using. Dawn to dusk in January is quite short, and things always seem to take longer when its cold. And the trail its self will be completely different. What a neat challenge. Please keep us posted,

Its a long night in the bag when you go to bed at 4pm.

Styles_for_miles
08-07-2016, 08:03
Its a long night in the bag when you go to bed at 4pm.

In the winter in the white mountains I can usually do 8-10 but while I'm hiking in october I am going to be taking notes, I have the gear for winter backpacking, thanks for all this great info


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

colorado_rob
08-07-2016, 09:33
Its a long night in the bag when you go to bed at 4pm.More like 6-7pm (but I know it will get dark earlier than this), but yeah, this is one of the major challenges of winter backpacking. Of course a big, bright headlamp extends the day, and personally, I'm a voracious reader when on the trail, hence a major reason I carry one of those EVIL cell thingies (used mostly as a Kindle reader). This short-day thing also gets much better in February/early March, though I suspect snow conditions are tougher then than in December/January.

Slo-go'en
08-07-2016, 11:56
More like 6-7pm (but I know it will get dark earlier than this), but yeah, this is one of the major challenges of winter backpacking. Of course a big, bright headlamp extends the day, and personally, I'm a voracious reader when on the trail, hence a major reason I carry one of those EVIL cell thingies (used mostly as a Kindle reader). This short-day thing also gets much better in February/early March, though I suspect snow conditions are tougher then than in December/January.

Sunset is about 4 PM in Vermont during December. On overcast days, being on the east side of the ridge or down in a ravine and it can be getting dark as early as 3 PM. Sunrise is about 7:30 AM and getting up that early when it's wicked cold out is not easy. So you got maybe 6-7 hours of daylight to use. If your breaking trail, you might be going 1/2 to 1/4 mile an hour.

You do much better in March, sunrise is about 6:30 AM and sunset 5:30 PM so now you got about 12 hours of daylight to work with. However, March tends to be a stormy month and the snow depth is at it's highest.

colorado_rob
08-07-2016, 12:16
You do much better in March, sunrise is about 6:30 AM and sunset 5:30 PM so now you got about 12 hours of daylight to work with. However, March tends to be a stormy month and the snow depth is at it's highest.That's the tradeoff, precisely, with perhaps a mid-late January start being a nice compromise. But I keep thinking back to a December 26-27 start (Christmas is sacrosanct in my family!) and lots of headlamp batteries. I think snow depth will be the #1 show stopper here, well, besides the mental fatigue of this whole silly notion.

Slo-go'en
08-07-2016, 13:13
The coldest temps arrive here from Mid Feb to early March. One needs to be ready to deal with -20F lows and wind chills off the bottom of the chart.

But winters aren't like they used to be around here. Their getting short, but intense. It's getting so you just don't know what to expect any more.

Deadeye
08-07-2016, 15:06
But winters aren't like they used to be around here. Their getting short, but intense. It's getting so you just don't know what to expect any more.

True that. As the old saying goes, "things ain't like they used to be, and they never were"

egilbe
08-07-2016, 18:46
You know whats worse than deep snow in early March? Crumbly melting deep snow that won't hold a snowshoe and is too deep to bare boot. Post-holing sucks!

James GAME2009
08-08-2016, 23:30
I admire you for seeking out a difficult challenge. If you attempt it, the trail will be slow, lonely, and a bit desolate. Your pack will be heavy with more food than normal, heavier (warmer) gear than normal, etc. There will be long hours of darkness and cold.

The Long Trail in winter has been attempted/done multiple times before. I remember reading in the Long Trail News some time ago about a couple who attempted it. I do not remember if they were successful. Here is a link to some folks who attempted it a few years back, perhaps the same couple as in the article: https://www.facebook.com/Long-Trail-Winter-Expedition-266865426697415/info/?entry_point=page_nav_about_item&tab=page_info Here's an old White Blaze thread on this topic, complete with someone weighing in who has done what you are considering: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/56535-Long-Trail-Thru-in-January-(2011) It looks like Wolf is still active on White Blaze. Perhaps PM him with more specific questions.

Looking around online a bit I find mention of a few other folks completing it in winter, and surely there are others who haven't publicized it. Regardless, you would be in rare company if successful and would have one heck of an adventure.

Styles_for_miles
08-09-2016, 08:57
I admire you for seeking out a difficult challenge. If you attempt it, the trail will be slow, lonely, and a bit desolate. Your pack will be heavy with more food than normal, heavier (warmer) gear than normal, etc. There will be long hours of darkness and cold.

The Long Trail in winter has been attempted/done multiple times before. I remember reading in the Long Trail News some time ago about a couple who attempted it. I do not remember if they were successful. Here is a link to some folks who attempted it a few years back, perhaps the same couple as in the article: https://www.facebook.com/Long-Trail-Winter-Expedition-266865426697415/info/?entry_point=page_nav_about_item&tab=page_info Here's an old White Blaze thread on this topic, complete with someone weighing in who has done what you are considering: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/56535-Long-Trail-Thru-in-January-(2011) It looks like Wolf is still active on White Blaze. Perhaps PM him with more specific questions.

Looking around online a bit I find mention of a few other folks completing it in winter, and surely there are others who haven't publicized it. Regardless, you would be in rare company if successful and would have one heck of an adventure.

Thank you for so much good feedback! Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

colorado_rob
08-09-2016, 09:04
I did read that FB page of the young couple that gave it a good shot, they almost made it, then bailed to the lower trail for a while during the last 60 miles. Great info on their page though. This is the closest I've found, still haven't seen it done all the way yet, though most certainly, someone with more resolve than I have has to have done it.

One recurring theme is route finding, making it really important to get a great set of waypoints during this late summer/early fall LT attempt.

Ktaadn
08-09-2016, 09:24
Vermont is not the Himalayas. That doesn't mean it would be easy, but I think the hype has gone a little too far.

colorado_rob
08-09-2016, 09:30
Vermont is not the Himalayas. That doesn't mean it would be easy, but I think the hype has gone a little too far.I personally don't see any hype in the responses, but that's just me. What is continually intriguing about this is that I cannot find anyone on record who has done this.

peakbagger
08-09-2016, 10:07
I used to date a girl over near the north end of the trail. We only summited about 1/2 the time on day hikes in winter. The trail is not well traveled in winter so a beaten path is not guaranteed. In the open hardwoods the trail may not be obvious and the blazes may be buried. Most of the ridge line is dense spruce and fir. There are natural openings in this spruce and fir that may or may not be the trail so there is a lot of route finding. Even when on the trail snowshoeing in powder up a steep stretch can be lesson in futility. If I used my larger powder shoes they were too large for maneuvering, if I used my mountaineering shoes they didn't have enough flotation. Rarely is there a reliable crust until late winter. Even if there is crust, frequently it gets covered with powder and doesn't set up hard so then its even more difficult going as the crust breaks below the snow and then every step requires more effort to pull the leg out than taking the next step.

I expect someone has done it like the individual did the AT last winter. We had a very late onset of winter and not a lot of snow in general so I expect the snow pack was far lower making travel a lot quicker.

Another Kevin
08-09-2016, 10:10
You know whats worse than deep snow in early March? Crumbly melting deep snow that won't hold a snowshoe and is too deep to bare boot. Post-holing sucks!
Worse yet: slushy spring ice that won't hold a crampon and parts company with the rock.

Ktaadn
08-09-2016, 12:42
Looks like they did all but 40 miles.

https://www.facebook.com/Long-Trail-Winter-Expedition-266865426697415/

Day hiker. Would probably be a good resource if you could track him down.

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/88574/voices-from-trail-joplin-james/

egilbe
08-09-2016, 17:58
Worse yet: slushy spring ice that won't hold a crampon and parts company with the rock.

I would imagine one only does that once.