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John B
08-22-2016, 08:14
August 22, 2016 issue, New York Times:

http://nyti.ms/2buAQWY

dudeijuststarted
08-22-2016, 09:35
They used to be called "pioneers." :-?

Ktaadn
08-22-2016, 09:41
They used to be called "pioneers." :-?

Before that, they were just people living there. Then someone started calling them indians or savages or native peoples or whatever other label.

1azarus
08-22-2016, 09:49
seems like this press makes it harder for trail head logistics hitch hikers! sorry, I know, first world problem...

Uriah
08-22-2016, 09:55
Although I somehow doubt most homeless people choose to live in such a manner (not manor!), I made it a choice to live this way. Each year I watched more and more people doing so, whether by choice or circumstance. Public lands (Forest Service, BLM) enable it (for brief stints, anyway: two weeks in one place, generally), and tough times economically often force it. I camped and lived near Nederland and Ward for three years, both in summer and winter, taking the bus down to, and working in Boulder, saving most my income. Back then there were dozens of others doing this, men and women; I'd imagine there are more now. But there seems to be a distinct line between those trying to save money and those who don't, or won't, work. Mine existence was a Thoreau-like choice and it allowed for an early retirement and lots of travel, both of which I preferred over the nightmare that is the American Dream.

Restricting such encampment areas only forces people elsewhere. It certainly doesn't solve the problem, if indeed it is a problem. But they've done this in plenty of areas: Moab's surrounding BLM land, Estes Park (CO), Bend, OR, and elsewhere. Still, with just a ranger or two assigned to in some cases millions of acres, their job is futile and the numbers are only going to grow.

peakbagger
08-22-2016, 10:28
There is option for those who want to be legit and that's taking advantage of volunteering opportunities in many national parks and forests (I also expect other federal properties). I run into numerous folks in the whites that do some minimal volunteering in exchange for free camping spots. I met one person who drives around in a federal supplied pickup and checks the toilet paper dispensers in the trailhead parking lots in exchange for free season long camping. In other more remote campgrounds there are campground hosts who stay for free in exchange for managing the site, mostly meeting campers and keeping the outhouses swept. The FS is now setting up tables at popular hiking trailheads meeting and greeting hikers to make sure they have the right gear. Most of the folks running these are volunteers who get free camping for four hour per day commitment. Many of the folks I run into are from all over the US and do this as cheap way to see the country.

On the other hand I expect that if someone has substance abuse issues and are unable/unwilling to live up to commitments in exchange for a legit camp spot they probably aren't interested in the legit way and would rather just hide out in the woods. Unfortunately, many of the folks living like this tend to be less than environmentally conscious, generally the method of trash disposal is the woods and the bucket used as toilet in the article gets dumped on the ground. I haven't been out west but have encountered a few spots out in my area abandoned by transients and they can leave quite a blight. Its not a much of an issue year round I expect in northern NH as the cold weather and black fly season would drive most folks out of the woods.

Odd Man Out
08-22-2016, 10:47
Although I somehow doubt most homeless people choose to live in such a manner (not manor!), I made it a choice to live this way....

This was a very interesting post. Thanks Uriah.

allmebloominlife
10-10-2016, 16:11
The more and I do the daily grind of going to work for someone else, in order to earn money to turn around and give it to someone else for my mortgage, car payment, utilities and entertainment, makes me consider living off the land. But alas, my 401K needs padding and my Navy (reserve) retirement doesn't kick in for 12 more years. Urgh.....hi ho, hi ho, its off to work I go.

Tipi Walter
10-10-2016, 16:35
Although I somehow doubt most homeless people choose to live in such a manner (not manor!), I made it a choice to live this way. Each year I watched more and more people doing so, whether by choice or circumstance. Public lands (Forest Service, BLM) enable it (for brief stints, anyway: two weeks in one place, generally), and tough times economically often force it. I camped and lived near Nederland and Ward for three years, both in summer and winter, taking the bus down to, and working in Boulder, saving most my income. Back then there were dozens of others doing this, men and women; I'd imagine there are more now. But there seems to be a distinct line between those trying to save money and those who don't, or won't, work. Mine existence was a Thoreau-like choice and it allowed for an early retirement and lots of travel, both of which I preferred over the nightmare that is the American Dream.

Restricting such encampment areas only forces people elsewhere. It certainly doesn't solve the problem, if indeed it is a problem. But they've done this in plenty of areas: Moab's surrounding BLM land, Estes Park (CO), Bend, OR, and elsewhere. Still, with just a ranger or two assigned to in some cases millions of acres, their job is futile and the numbers are only going to grow.

Good post. "Thoreau-like Choice" explains it all. I spent 7 years homeless in the North Carolina mountains between 1980-87 but in fact I had excellent gear and managed to stealth camp all thru the County. Wherever I went I camped, including various long hitchhiking trips. I eventually "got legal" and built a tipi on 40 acres of private land with permission and didn't have to sleep behind cemetery tombstones or behind churches or in treelines anymore. The one mile trail I cut up to my tipi was outstanding.

But it takes all kinds to ruin it. People rolling in campers and RVs for example. We had one guy here in Monroe Cty TN who logged an acre and built a log cabin and was caught and banned from the national forest for life I guess.

Then there are the Pickup Hobos who drive from car camping spot to spot in their pickup trucks and live this way from retirement check to check. They keep moving every two weeks and it's a good system if you can't walk and like to be near other car campers living in their "mud homes".

One of the incentives I had back in 1980 to get some gear and live outside permanently was a miscreant landlord who warned me to get out of my apartment---I did not---and then he torched the house as an arson to get insurance money. I went to the court case as a witness and he got nothing. Should've got jail time.

Anyway, this event propelled me mercifully into the outdoors and under Miss Nature's sky. There's no better place to live.

https://photos.smugmug.com/BooneYears/Tipi-Life/i-H64kQhn/1/O/scan0027smaller.jpgstree%20music%20%2081.jpg
Playing street music during my homeless years, 1981.

somers515
10-10-2016, 16:35
The more and I do the daily grind of going to work for someone else, in order to earn money to turn around and give it to someone else for my mortgage, car payment, utilities and entertainment, makes me consider living off the land. But alas, my 401K needs padding and my Navy (reserve) retirement doesn't kick in for 12 more years. Urgh.....hi ho, hi ho, its off to work I go.

Check out the Mr. Money Mustache blog if you haven't already. Based on how you phrased your post I think you might find him helpful. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/

Lone Wolf
10-10-2016, 19:59
Good post. "Thoreau-like Choice" explains it all. I spent 7 years homeless in the North Carolina mountains between 1980-87 but in fact I had excellent gear and managed to stealth camp all thru the County. Wherever I went I camped, including various long hitchhiking trips. I eventually "got legal" and built a tipi on 40 acres of private land with permission and didn't have to sleep behind cemetery tombstones or behind churches or in treelines anymore. The one mile trail I cut up to my tipi was outstanding.

But it takes all kinds to ruin it. People rolling in campers and RVs for example. We had one guy here in Monroe Cty TN who logged an acre and built a log cabin and was caught and banned from the national forest for life I guess.

Then there are the Pickup Hobos who drive from car camping spot to spot in their pickup trucks and live this way from retirement check to check. They keep moving every two weeks and it's a good system if you can't walk and like to be near other car campers living in their "mud homes".

One of the incentives I had back in 1980 to get some gear and live outside permanently was a miscreant landlord who warned me to get out of my apartment---I did not---and then he torched the house as an arson to get insurance money. I went to the court case as a witness and he got nothing. Should've got jail time.

Anyway, this event propelled me mercifully into the outdoors and under Miss Nature's sky. There's no better place to live.

https://photos.smugmug.com/BooneYears/Tipi-Life/i-H64kQhn/1/O/scan0027smaller.jpgstree%20music%20%2081.jpg
Playing street music during my homeless years, 1981.

nice pack.

Tipi Walter
10-10-2016, 20:25
nice pack.

Thank ye. It's my old warhorse North Face pack---seen here in action but from someone else's collection---(I still have the old faded thing and it's hanging up on a peg in the garage. It was used nonstop for 22 years until replaced by various internal frames).

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Coy-Williams-and-the-25th/i-2hWTkZg/0/L/TRIP%20114%20325-L.jpg

Hosh
10-11-2016, 11:38
Although I somehow doubt most homeless people choose to live in such a manner (not manor!), I made it a choice to live this way. Each year I watched more and more people doing so, whether by choice or circumstance. Public lands (Forest Service, BLM) enable it (for brief stints, anyway: two weeks in one place, generally), and tough times economically often force it. I camped and lived near Nederland and Ward for three years, both in summer and winter, taking the bus down to, and working in Boulder, saving most my income. Back then there were dozens of others doing this, men and women; I'd imagine there are more now. But there seems to be a distinct line between those trying to save money and those who don't, or won't, work. Mine existence was a Thoreau-like choice and it allowed for an early retirement and lots of travel, both of which I preferred over the nightmare that is the American Dream.

Restricting such encampment areas only forces people elsewhere. It certainly doesn't solve the problem, if indeed it is a problem. But they've done this in plenty of areas: Moab's surrounding BLM land, Estes Park (CO), Bend, OR, and elsewhere. Still, with just a ranger or two assigned to in some cases millions of acres, their job is futile and the numbers are only going to grow.

I just wish some of these people weren't so trashy. Not only litter, but human feces, needles and all kinds of crap. Colorado has become a mecca for wanderers and it's even worse since the legal pot laws were passed.

Uriah
10-11-2016, 12:11
I just wish some of these people weren't so trashy. Not only litter, but human feces, needles and all kinds of crap.

I agree. But we shouldn't forget that the massive amounts of trash we generate as a society also goes somewhere. (Elsewhere!) It just tends to be a little more organized and a little less visible. Waste management, they call the industry!

Flush your toilet and voila...your poop is gone! Throw your junk in the waste bin and it's gone for good!

When I see human waste in the woods or here in the desert, be it feces or toilet paper or old camping stuff left behind, it doesn't make me think so much of the individual(s) who left it there, but that we're all just as responsible for generating it and having it shipped elsewhere, out of our life! The size of the municipal garbage bins lining any street on "garbage day" have only gotten bigger in the past few decades, so the problem itself is also only going to.

It's a pretty safe bet that almost every one of us would (and does) generate more garbage/waste/pollution/fumes when we're within society than we would on its fringes. It's all just concealed a little better.

Tipi Walter
10-11-2016, 12:18
We think it's bad with 7.3 billion of us, wait until we reach 12 billion etc. America is projected to be around 450 million by 2050, I guess our goal is to have over a billion consumers like China. Kiss what's left of wilderness goodbye.

Uriah
10-11-2016, 12:30
We think it's bad with 7.3 billion of us, wait until we reach 12 billion etc. America is projected to be around 450 million by 2050, I guess our goal is to have over a billion consumers like China. Kiss what's left of wilderness goodbye.

A sad picture for sure, but all the more reason to enjoy it now.

It's interesting that so many of us do head out to enjoy the wild lands, but yet refrain from defending them. I'm certainly guilty of this, although I justify my behavior because I have no tie to the future, be it 2050 or even a little sooner. I'm happy to have been born when I was, with all the freedom and some of the land upon which to go get lost and ponder life's big mysteries.

Tipi Walter
10-11-2016, 12:51
The American Indians defended the wild lands and look what happened to them.

Dogwood
10-11-2016, 13:50
I was homeless off and on for almost a yr in Hawaii and for a yr in Nevada. I too chose to live that way but I also committed to work for periods, save more money than I already had(I was not a broke homeless person), and not rely on any public assistance, EBT, checks in the mailbox, disability claims, panhandling, staying at a shelter, etc. intertwining the lifestyle with multi-day hikes and volunteering at various locations and for various causes. I lived very frugally and very simply. Living this way was never a full time affair. I lived and worked at hostels on various occasions for example. It was never an intention to continue living this way. Most importantly my intentions were met by taking action. I was always transitioning to full time work, stable full time housing, and overall full time contributing to being a better citizen by paying taxes, adding to the economy, not resorting to being a criminal, not succumbing to drug addiction, etc.

As an avid hiker across the U.S. and doing many thru-hikes additionally I've had very ample opportunities to connect with homeless communities across the U.S. My heart goes out to these people. But, to suggest the vast majority are doing it mainly out of wanting a Thoreau like experience or because of a supposed "poor" economy ignoring bad decision making doesn't play into being homeless is being disingenuous.

The vast majority of homeless people no matter where I go in the U.S. have some kind of drug addiction or are involved in selling drugs(almost always to offset the cost of their own drug uses) ranging from alcohol, tobacco, weed, lots of methamphetamine, some crack, bath salts, and a fair share of heroin. There is a high level of intravenous illicit drug use. There is also a extremely high level of criminal behavior like theft in the homeless community. They not only steal from businesses but also from each other. Businesses can have substantial losses due to theft in homeless areas. Most do not want to or say they can't work. Most do not want to get ahead by sweat of their own brow. Of course, they are fine when they get ahead material or otherwise at the expense of others. There is a high degree of psychological disorders among the homeless with some homeless communities having a significant, 15% or more, number of ex veterans. EVERY homeless community I've observed overall followed this questionable habit of bad decision making and lack of personal responsibility considering the larger context of others, their community, and the environment by trashing the place with garbage, drug paraphernalia, including used syringes(heroin, meth, coke, bath salts), glass stems(from crack) and meth pipes, and feces and urine.

Some point to a lack of care in regards to goods and services for the homeless. I can't speak about that situation everywhere but I can unequivocally state in Hawaii and Reno Nevada they do exist. These services(legal , medical, dental, job sourcing, job offers, housing, food, EBT, phones, computers, transportation vouchers, make your own bicycle from a mountain of spare parts, etc are not utilized by the majority of homeless communities to transition out of being homeless. Actually, these services are used by the majority as further crutches to continue being a homeless addicted non gainfully employed psychologically questionably stable criminally prone society drop out that almost universally looks to someone else or something else as the root cause of their problems.

For example, the state of Hawaii built new modern 1 BR apartments for the homeless with available public transportation to downtown areas to maintain jobs FREE who desired to transition from the streets. Only catch was you had to pass a urine test and have no outstanding felony warrants. Some of the housing was still vacant over a yr after being built!

For example, at a homeless shelter in Nevada housing 250 plus men alone(not including the segregated female housing) Temp Job Service Companies offering PT jobs with the ability to also go full time would show up at the shelter after erecting signage at the shelter notifying that jobs would be available, often could not full his or her 6-20 persons needed for work requirement.

For example in Reno Nevada, Chicago Illinois, Newark New Jersey at the drug dealer houses, often located in old hotels, on the night before EBT card balances were refilled available at 12 a.m. lines of the drug addicted and cash strapped poor would line up and sleep in line to trade their EBT food money for pennies on the dollar in exchange for drugs.

It is not just me making these associations with the homeless either. There are some crossover characteristics to the uninitiated when comparing footloose frugal travelers/wanderers, LD hikers, and the homeless. With increasing regularity in many areas, well beyond the AT or LT, where there is not a known trail and substantial trail support I find myself having to convince others I'm just a dirty LD hiker not a homeless person. I find myself increasingly having to define myself to others by separating what I'm doing and who I am from the associations with being homeless.

So when people refer to the homeless as "pioneers" or the question arises should National Forests be open to the homeless I'm put off with the suggestion. I think there will always be a homeless population in the U.S., the Gov't can't be personally responsible for everyone's individual behavior, and I certainly don't assume to have all the answers to homelessness other than what the Brookings Institute offered:

1) Complete high school(at a minimum)

2) Maintain fun time employment

3) Don't have children out of wedlock

Single parent hood and the parallel rise of the welfare state are statistically heavily correlated with poverty.

Dogwood
10-11-2016, 14:18
I agree. But we shouldn't forget that the massive amounts of trash we generate as a society also goes somewhere. (Elsewhere!) It just tends to be a little more organized and a little less visible. Waste management, they call the industry!

Flush your toilet and voila...your poop is gone! Throw your junk in the waste bin and it's gone for good!

When I see human waste in the woods or here in the desert, be it feces or toilet paper or old camping stuff left behind, it doesn't make me think so much of the individual(s) who left it there, but that we're all just as responsible for generating it and having it shipped elsewhere, out of our life! The size of the municipal garbage bins lining any street on "garbage day" have only gotten bigger in the past few decades, so the problem itself is also only going to.

It's a pretty safe bet that almost every one of us would (and does) generate more garbage/waste/pollution/fumes when we're within society than we would on its fringes. It's all just concealed a little better.

While I agree on irresponsibility is irresponsibility no matter where it happens in regard to waste aggregation and I agree with you on the wasteful, consumption, and consumer driven U.S., AND ELSEWHERE, cultures modern day waste management is absolutely not just about removing it from one location and hiding it another location. Everything from electronics to, metals, plastics, wood, glass, etc can be used again. Even some among the homeless know this and are some of the moss avid Al can recyclers. Some(many?) I've spoken to in Hawaii choose to make this their job their purpose rather than resorting to stealing. Unfortunately many also use it to support drug habits. Leaving a bunch of human detritus in the woods as result of being homeless is no excuse for bagging up waste, AND AT LEAST spent food packaging and alcohol, throwing it in a dumpster. I've seen too many homeless people living in their own waste UNNECESSARILY. You can't excuse your own questionable behaviors by referring to the questionable behaviors of society and its ills. AGAIN, this comes down to what personal responsibility do people exhibit. WHAT level of personal responsibility do homeless communities exhibit???

This is what often irks many that are not homeless and more than a few, as seen here on this thread, that were homeless.

Dogwood
10-11-2016, 14:20
2) Maintain full time employment

Ha, not fun time employment. Employment can be fun though.

Tipi Walter
10-11-2016, 14:45
All of my homeless years were done alcohol and drug free. Even meat free. In those years I had ample opportunity to meet "fellow" homeless types and you guys are right, many of them were whacked out or wanted to be whacked out on various chemicals. Some were violent, dangerous; most were emotional wrecks. Some were deviants. They had to be close in to a city and had no desire to seek the deep woods, not even the town treeline. A patch of woods behind the walmart was good enough, if that.

The Thoreauvian call of the wild didn't concern any of them, except at a most basis level in their reptilian brainstem. (That 4% of Neanderthal DNA which calls all of us outdoors). The freedom of sleeping out in Nature is also a drug and I was hooked, having traded in my booze and cigs and drugs for the experience.

Maydog
10-11-2016, 14:48
I had two friends that volunteered with a homeless ministry for a while. They would take sandwiches to places that homeless people congregated, and always asked them if they were ready to get off the streets. 90% answered "no". So they would give them a sandwich and offer them a ride to a shelter (a homeless shelter, not a backpacking shelter :)). I can't imagine wanting to live on the streets, but then I'm not addicted or mentally ill (not much anyway).

Starchild
10-11-2016, 15:11
Struggles and all I do wonder how many of these people get to sit back and relax and realize they have it better than most people.

Dogwood
10-11-2016, 15:31
It's far far better to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness being content in all things being grateful for what one does have. It is when I(we) ignore this relying totally on my own understanding my own way of doing things I(we) put myself(ourselves) in greatest peril.

Lnj
10-11-2016, 16:15
It's far far better to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness being content in all things being grateful for what one does have. It is when I(we) ignore this relying totally on my own understanding my own way of doing things I(we) put myself(ourselves) in greatest peril.

Amen and amen..

rocketsocks
10-11-2016, 17:39
Amen and amen..
I O I O-its oft ta work we go!

Lnj
10-11-2016, 17:51
I O I O-its oft ta work we go!

LOL!! Correct.

left52side
10-11-2016, 19:13
The more and I do the daily grind of going to work for someone else, in order to earn money to turn around and give it to someone else for my mortgage, car payment, utilities and entertainment, makes me consider living off the land. But alas, my 401K needs padding and my Navy (reserve) retirement doesn't kick in for 12 more years. Urgh.....hi ho, hi ho, its off to work I go.

Great post.
I seem to have my happiest times in life when I had my backpack on in the middle of nowhere and all my possessions were attached to my back,whether it be hitchhiking hopping freight trains or walking in the woods for five months at A time,I always felt at such peace without the worries of monetary things as mentioned above.
I to have acclimated back into the "GRIND" of what most humans consider normal,go to work pay your bills and die life.
I moved back to Florida several years ago to be closer to my aging parents and not running all over the country,which in turn forced me to "acclimate" back into society so to say lol :).
And honestly it is quite depressing even though I have managed to acquire A tiny home and live off grid almost 100 percent,it still feels like the same old nine to five,and every dime I put away towards my next thru hike brings back memories of the carefree life I lived not so long ago.
I have met several people in my small town here in Florida that are homeless by choice and are more comfortable living in the woods with minimal possessions and contrary to popular believe most are not alcoholics or drug addicts(in my case anyway).
None that I speak to on the regular basis are on food stamps or any government aid at all, They simply do odd jobs ,and live off what other folks waste(which is alot)...

evyck da fleet
10-11-2016, 20:35
There's definitely two distinct groups of homeless. I've seen older hikers on the AT that I thought could be homeless as opposed to retired, I'm sure not all were, living a very simple life moving along the trail. I also saw ones that were waiting at donation based hostels on the last day of the month so they could get their gov't assistance once it was direct deposited the following day to get drunk or high. In Hawaii, I saw people living out of their cars at campsites who had low paying jobs and preferred the campsites to renting. But I also saw the ex cons who sold drugs in town to get enough money so they could live illegally at the shelter along the Napali coast. In theory, a two week limit would work for the the group abiding by the laws. They would move to another site provided they could still get to work and return to the first site at a later time. The second group has trouble following rules to begin with and whatever punishment is handed out for their latest infraction is going to be much less than what they've received for their past misdeeds so good luck expecting their behavior to change. As we're finding out, National Parks are a great cheap alternative to running away to Alaska to try and escape your past.

MuddyWaters
10-11-2016, 20:59
Struggles and all I do wonder how many of these people get to sit back and relax and realize they have it better than most people.

I dont know about better than most, but many street people prefer the street to shelters. They often have a circle of friends, know the routine, how to get by, and can drink or whatever . When they go to a shelter they are given rules, sobriety, and must look for work.

I was with a buddy one day when guy begging came up to truck in walmart parking lot. Probably just a scammmer. But my friend was driving and listened to his line, then told him "Dude, you should be giving me money". "I owe $400,000 dollars.".

Huli
10-11-2016, 21:11
I am going to be retired when I start my AT/PCT/CDT hike. Won't own a house...damnit, I am going to be a negative statistic!

cliffordbarnabus
10-11-2016, 23:49
until you've walked a mile, or 2200 miles, in another man's, or woman's, shoes, you just don't know.

long hair, beard, smelling like a human, scruffy clothes, hole'y (or holy) shoes on a trail or in a city or a small town = you don't know.

nor, should you assume.

Tipi Walter
10-12-2016, 07:49
Great post.
I seem to have my happiest times in life when I had my backpack on in the middle of nowhere and all my possessions were attached to my back,whether it be hitchhiking hopping freight trains or walking in the woods for five months at A time,I always felt at such peace without the worries of monetary things as mentioned above.
I to have acclimated back into the "GRIND" of what most humans consider normal,go to work pay your bills and die life.
I moved back to Florida several years ago to be closer to my aging parents and not running all over the country,which in turn forced me to "acclimate" back into society so to say lol :).

And honestly it is quite depressing even though I have managed to acquire A tiny home and live off grid almost 100 percent,it still feels like the same old nine to five,and every dime I put away towards my next thru hike brings back memories of the carefree life I lived not so long ago.


You hit the nail on the head. I exactly relate to your first quote and it doesn't take an einstein to figure it out. As I always like to say: "When you're indoors you're a failure, When you're outdoors you're a success." This to me sums up the quest for the wild---and living outdoors. Some people, many people, just don't get it. They never have their John Muir Moment.

America the Beautiful is all about living in what's left of the Beautiful and what's left of the backcountry. Sleeping under a tree, drinking water out of a creek, climbing a mountain in the snow with a pack and enough food for 3 weeks---This is who we are and a gift from the North American continent. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Dogwood
10-12-2016, 11:47
....I seem to have my happiest times in life when I had my backpack on in the middle of nowhere and all my possessions were attached to my back,whether it be hitchhiking hopping freight trains or walking in the woods for five months at A time,I always felt at such peace without the worries of monetary things as mentioned above.
I to have acclimated back into the "GRIND" of what most humans consider normal,go to work pay your bills and die life.
I moved back to Florida several years ago to be closer to my aging parents and not running all over the country,which in turn forced me to "acclimate" back into society so to say lol :).
And honestly it is quite depressing even though I have managed to acquire A tiny home and live off grid almost 100 percent,it still feels like the same old nine to five,and every dime I put away towards my next thru hike brings back memories of the carefree life I lived not so long ago.
I have met several people in my small town here in Florida that are homeless by choice and are more comfortable living in the woods with minimal possessions and contrary to popular believe most are not alcoholics or drug addicts(in my case anyway).
None that I speak to on the regular basis are on food stamps or any government aid at all, They simply do odd jobs ,and live off what other folks waste(which is alot)...


You hit the nail on the head. I exactly relate to your first quote and it doesn't take an einstein to figure it out. As I always like to say: "When you're indoors you're a failure, When you're outdoors you're a success." This to me sums up the quest for the wild---and living outdoors. Some people, many people, just don't get it. They never have their John Muir Moment.

America the Beautiful is all about living in what's left of the Beautiful and what's left of the backcountry. Sleeping under a tree, drinking water out of a creek, climbing a mountain in the snow with a pack and enough food for 3 weeks---This is who we are and a gift from the North American continent. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Neither of you are in some exclusive category who feel this way but there's a LEGAL way to do it!

Again, 'there is also a extremely high level of criminal behavior like theft in the homeless community. They not only steal from businesses but also from each other. Businesses can have substantial losses due to theft in

homeless areas. Most do not want to or say they can't work. Most do not want to get ahead by sweat of their own brow. Of course, they are fine when they get ahead material or otherwise at the expense of others.'

Invariably, living as an impoverished homeless person whether a drug addict or not, REMEMBERING ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, AND PRESCRIBED PHARMACEUTICALS ARE DRUGS TOO, one will be faced with ignoring their behavior leading to self serving self absorbed "free for me" criminal acts. Living off the land can easily ignore the broader aspect of "living off others."

Train or freight hopping is more stressful, time consuming, life threatening, and illegal than most would say experiencing a 9 to 5 job. It further indoctrinates one into believing a criminal mindset is acceptable. :confused:

turtle fast
10-12-2016, 12:05
I've run into the same situation here in the Midwest. A lot of the homeless are drug/alcohol dependent. I had a discussion with a psychologist who stated that many of the drug dependent are self medicating. It was sad that most of those living the drug/alcohol lifestyle didn't even realize it. To them, it's their lifestyle...it's what they do. I have been contemplating if we tweaked the laws and made it easier and more streamlined for addicts to be involuntary committed to a longer term drug/alcohol/ mental health programs if it would be feasible/work.

Dogwood
10-12-2016, 12:39
The more and I do the daily grind of going to work for someone else, in order to earn money to turn around and give it to someone else for my mortgage, car payment, utilities and entertainment, makes me consider living off the land. But alas, my 401K needs padding and my Navy (reserve) retirement doesn't kick in for 12 more years. Urgh.....hi ho, hi ho, its off to work I go.

No matter what anyone says here, it is an over romanticized delusion to think "living off the land" or being homeless or being impoverished or living on the streets is about a carefree existence!

You might want to rethink your assumption. The other side of the fence is not always greener. You are working for access and ownership to a home, automobile, arguably mobility, establishing credit, security for you and your loved ones, honoring your word, living up to commitments, and being responsible for yourself and a wider whole without being exposed to the underbelly world of being homeless and impoverished all while adding to your country and society, not living off it. Could there be possible cons to all that, sure? But at least take an honest inventory of what you should be grateful of before throwing it away for some idealized lifestyle.

Even for idealized Dick Proenneke his simple frugal hermit like - LEGALLY in the day - "living off the land" lifestyle demanded constant work. He lived by the sweat of his own brow not on the shoulders of others in society as a way of life. He paid his own way. Mr Proenneke also had a very good consideration of his impact on a greater ecology than himself. He closely connected with and was considerate of both flora and fauna. Where he lived didn't look like a junkyard. He wasn't a drug addict. He wasn't criminally minded or trend towards illegal activities. These overall traits are not evident in the majority of the homeless impoverished street communities nor by those who are non indigenous squatters on National Forest lands.

Tipi Walter
10-12-2016, 12:45
I've run into the same situation here in the Midwest. A lot of the homeless are drug/alcohol dependent. I had a discussion with a psychologist who stated that many of the drug dependent are self medicating. It was sad that most of those living the drug/alcohol lifestyle didn't even realize it. To them, it's their lifestyle...it's what they do. I have been contemplating if we tweaked the laws and made it easier and more streamlined for addicts to be involuntary committed to a longer term drug/alcohol/ mental health programs if it would be feasible/work.

Many university campuses are Alcohol Binge Centers encouraged I suppose by the board of regents etc. When talking about drug abuse and the war on drugs, it must be remembered that alcohol is the biggest problem with the most health complications, and yet it's widely promoted in our society. You could say the homeless are drug and alcohol dependent, but then isn't our whole culture? Many people who sneer at the drunk or drugged homeless while driving past are themselves hooked on booze and ambien and mood stabilizers. And then there's television addiction and the dreaded couch potato syndrome---an electronic pastime most homeless don't do.

Tipi Walter
10-12-2016, 13:02
No matter what anyone says here, it is an over romanticized delusion to think "living off the land" or being homeless or being impoverished or living on the streets is about a carefree existence!

You might want to rethink your assumption.

The other side of the fence is not always greener. You are working for access and ownership to a home, automobile, arguably mobility, establishing credit, security for you and your loved ones, honoring your word, living up to commitments, and being responsible for yourself and a wider whole without being exposed to the underbelly world of being homeless and impoverished all while adding to your country and society, not living off it. Could there be possible cons to all that, sure? But at least take an honest inventory of what you should be grateful of before throwing it away for some idealized lifestyle.


It's not an assumption. The happiest people I've seen in the last 10 years were those backpacking the AT. Why? Because they were momentarily carefree. Dogwood, you may want to rethink your assumption that living outdoors is an overly romanticized delusion. I lived in a tipi on a North Carolina ridgetop for 21 years and can resolutely say you are wrong, and for the last 16 years I have spent more time out backpacking than indoors. During my tipi years I felt carefree, heck I was carefree. I worked minimally, I had no bills, no running water, no electricity and I hiked and backpacked nearly every day hauling stuff in and out on my one mile trail. I gathered and cut and split wood and I hauled water---what life is all about.

Your third quote sounds exactly what my father said 40 years ago when he found out I left college and started living out of a pack and living in a tipi. It blows people's minds. Living such a lifestyle has been blowing people's minds since 1492.

What I am most grateful for is unbroken wilderness, clean water, mountain winds and fierce snowstorms. Take these away and you've taken away America the Beautiful. And remember, humans are animals and mammals and near relatives to neanderthals. We've been living in nature as modern humans for the last 150,00 to 200,000 years. These last years of modernity and away from nature are a fluke.

You say, "No matter what anyone says here" and so I surmise you can't tolerate to be refuted about actual examples of people who have lived outdoors for long periods of time. A vast majority of Americans do not want to live in a Tipi or a tent or a wall tent or hike the AT 10 times in a row (despite their cro magnon roots), but there are that do and have done so and will continue to do so.

My only advice to the newb nature boys out there is to leave the sprawl and the development and the gotcha culture and head to the last big open country left, wherever you can find it. Sleep with the prettiest Woman in the world, Miss Nature.

Dogwood
10-12-2016, 13:57
PLEASE, don't misinterpret me out of context. I DID NOT SAY NOR DID I IMPLY "living outdoors is an overly romanticized delusion." YOU are quoting me OUT OF CONTEXT by NOT completing my entire thought! I SAID, and my ENTIRE THOUGHT is, "it is an over romanticized delusion to think "living off the land" or being homeless or being impoverished or living on the streets is about a carefree existence!
You prove my point, if my point would have been taken in context, by saying, "I hiked and backpacked nearly every day hauling stuff in and out on my one mile trail. I gathered and cut and split wood and I hauled water..."

If you take the time to consider my train of thought in context with my other posts on this thread you would also realized why I said this "neither of you are in some exclusive category who feel this way but there's a LEGAL way to do it!" Do you and left52 side think you are part of an exclusive club where no one knows how you feel about connecting with Nature, living for months, perhaps even yrs, with their entire possessions on their back, or perhaps even immerses themselves in the feelings the two of you shared that only get out for an weekend or day hike.

Uriah
10-12-2016, 13:59
I fully understand Dogwood's dogma, as security and comfort persuade most our decisions in modern life. Whether the grass is greener elsewhere, it's imperative we water our own.

When I first moved into the woods, I did so for no other reason than to gain more financial security. I hadn't even thought about possible repercussions or that I might struggle as much as I did during those long, cold winter nights. I simply saw a window of opportunity, one that would enable me to save almost everything I made and put it toward the future, a future I now enjoy immensely. I may have been an anomaly compared to others living around me, whether they were bedding down inside their over-sized McMansions or cocooned within their tepees or tents or cars. (Nederland plays host to all types.) But it mattered not. I was focused on a goal and any inconveniences incurred paled in comparison to achieving that goal.

Interestingly, the greatest side effect was that I soon fell in absolute love with Mother Nature, and I came to prefer the manner in which I lived, which is why I continue doing so to this day. Unlike most humans (homeless or otherwise), I didn't treat Mother Nature like a MILF, but rather someone far more important and beautiful. She gained my utmost respect and I vowed I'd never let her down.

But she taught me that she was much stronger than that!

Living that much closer to her, I learned that the indifference she harbored toward me and all other humans was palpable! She promised that she would recover, no matter the stress we deformed apes attempt to inflict. And I take great solace in knowing that. All we humans are doing is destroying our own temporary habitat, much like a parasite might. But unlike so many parasites, our host will not be destroyed by us. We're not that powerful! She will long outlast us humans, as she runs on a much grander clock, and we will only go to destroy ourselves and some other species along the way. I feel more for those helpless species than I do for any of us, and that includes the homeless.

Dogwood
10-12-2016, 14:27
One can be deluded by societal and cultural norms which I've clearly said many times eye opening sobriety can be reached by living outside the U.S. for periods, walking across S.America, doing a LD hike, perhaps living in the woods, etc. However, every person commenting here, including myself when I was homeless, want to live outside these norms, not be subjected to them, and even complain about them, yet are so willing to benefit from them in some way. That seems like a cop out. If you really want to be homeless living off the land be totally self sustaining be impoverished go to Siberia, Calcutta India, Terra del Fuego, live in the mountains of Haiti, Columbia or Honduras or Bolivia, etc. See how it goes. Then, come back and lecture about how bad the U.S. culture is and security and some level of comfort is bad.

Wise Old Owl
10-12-2016, 19:38
I O I O-its oft ta work we go!

Uh I thought you were on disability?

RockDoc
10-12-2016, 20:35
I agree with the posts saying that there are two types of homeless. I think they are polar opposites. The one type (Thoreau followers) just love the wilderness and enjoy spending time there. They are generally law-abiding and freedom loving. I did this on and off for a few years in my teens/20's. Didn't want any trouble, just loved sleeping under the open sky. These people are not usually a problem to anyone.

The second type (moochers) squat in or near cities in order to soak up whatever goods and services they can beg, borrow, or steal. Generally they are whacked out, drugged, criminal, and deviant although some are simply harmless and luckless. Seattle and a few other welcoming cities are full of them, in plain sight every day. It didn't used to be like this until "Progressive" cities started making them extremely welcome, throwing tens of millions of tax dollars at them, providing places to camp, and facilitating heroin abuse. The population of this type of homeless is growing.

rocketsocks
10-12-2016, 20:53
Uh I thought you were on disability?
shows how much you "Know it Owl" :cool:

MuddyWaters
10-12-2016, 20:59
Many people who sneer at the drunk or drugged homeless while driving past are themselves hooked on booze and ambien and mood stabilizers. And then there's television addiction and the dreaded couch potato syndrome---an electronic pastime most homeless don't do.

The steady stream of people pouring into the local convenience store at 6pm and leaving with cases of beer, every work day, is an indicator.
Theres a lot of people here that drink daily while hiking as well.
Im not against drinking at all, but a great many do it daily. Everyone else they know does it too, so they blow it off as normal.

It isnt.

Hosh
10-12-2016, 21:54
I don't disagree with the idea that we as a society consume too much alcohol. But it certainly is not equivalent to a sub set of the society that is drunk, drugged or otherwise incapacitated 12+ hours per day.

The folks showing up at 6pm likely have worked, hopefully not holding an aged cardboard sign "won't work, ain't hungry, need beer", my favorite!

Dogwood
10-13-2016, 00:39
Reputable study upon study upon study conducted on the U.S. population(not some cherry picked country like Sweden's population dissimilar in several import aspects than the U.S. population) demonstrate a significant correlation between homelessness and poverty. Studies demonstrate an increased risk of homeless for the impoverished. Homeless communities aren't generally teeming with NASA engineers, public school teachers, college professors, millionaires, municipal workers, firemen, Police, or anyone else who maintains a job with substantial above poverty level income living in tents, dilapidated RVs or campers, or squatting on National Forest land. Nor are homeless communities generally teeming with employed dishwashers, ditch diggers, waitresses, or fast food establishment employees. Nor are homeless communities generally teeming with those who regularly volunteer or have a broad deep community consciousness.

Lower education, particularly dropping out in or before graduating from High School, has been linked with poverty.

Unemployment, intentional or otherwise, for what ever reasons, have been linked to poverty.

Higher rates of mental disorders have been linked to the poor compared to the above poverty line income of the U.S. population. I've seen studies suggesting 16% of the homeless have clinically diagnosed mental disorders with the rate generally agreed upon by psychiatrists to be higher for the same group having undiagnosed mental disorders.

Drug abuse, particularly certain categories like alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, heroin, crack, and meth "the poor man's cocaine", is linked to poverty. How one maintains a $100+ a day crack or $200+ a day heroin habit without resorting to crime or avoiding a significant risk of poverty is beyond me. It's not just the pricier drugs too. How one maintains a regular meth or even alcohol or high use tobacco habit while being impoverished can and often does lead to criminality. That does not mean to imply or suggest drug abuse is necessarily the sole cause of homelessness or drug abuse doesn't occur in median and high income households and among individuals though. That also isn't implying or suggesting every impoverished homeless person is addicted to illicit drugs. Never the less the statistical correlation is undeniable.

Single parenthood - having children out of wedlock - is likewise linked to poverty. This stat holds true across racial, religious, and different U.S. geographical demographics. Interesting enough the significant rise in single motherhood over the last 50 or so yrs parallels statistically with the rise in the welfare state. There's much gov't incentive to have children out of wedlock.

Study upon reputable study can be cited to support what's said here but some don't want to hear about facts.

Again, I cite the Brookings Institute study that boiled it down to three principles to adhere to substantially reduce the risk of being impoverished in the U.S.:

Complete High School(at the least)

Don't have children until you're married( or have a stable two parent household)

Maintain a job

It might anger some people. Some may want to change the subject or ignore the facts. But, let's be "tough love" harshly honest. All these correlated categories don't just magically fall out of the sky to be visited upon the impoverished homeless en mass as if personal bad decision making, possibly a long series of questionable decision making, was not personally involved.

Some of the same now, sometimes/often wanting to continue with the same questionable patterns of character and decision making, with documented negative consequences to themselves, others, and the environment, desiring to continue in the impoverished homeless life, without a willingness to advance by sweat of their own labor and making better choices to the best of their ability, want to set up in your backyard, the yard you toiled for EARNED by sacrifice and work and through long term commitment and devotion.

What might be the consequences? What might be the negative consequences if allowed uncontrolled in National Forests?

rocketsocks
10-13-2016, 07:15
This is one time I gotta agree with Dogwood, only on the first half though because I got tired of reading, maybe later this afternoon I'll agree all the way. :D

Tipi Walter
10-13-2016, 09:08
Dogwood highlights the negative side of homelessness but ignores the other part of the conversation we've been having here---the desire to live outdoors in the woods in primitive structures for the love of the outdoors and done with a conscious desire to embrace poverty and spend little to no effort developing a career---What I call the secret to life: Seeing how little money you can make and still be happy.

During my 21 years of Tipi life I never made more than $5,000 a year working one day a week as a church janitor 10 miles away in a small town. I sometimes bicycled to work, often hitchhiked, later used a cheap motorcycle that got 75 miles to the gallon. I wanted no career which would impede my opportunity to live outdoors. I was legal on 40 acres of mountain land from the land owners, and I had no drivable access to my ridgetop home---just a one mile trail I cut in with a tough elevation gain of a thousand feet.

To American standards I was homeless. To Dogwood's standard I was probably the dregs of society. But to me? I thought of myself as the luckiest man in America, a combination of John Muir, Ed Abbey and Milarepa. And I bought wholly into the mindset of both Native American spirituality and Yoga philosophy: The real church is a couple people sitting under a tree. A Lakota medicine man Matthew King said it best: "God is Nature. Nature is God."

I was even inspired by Jesus and his "homelessness" and his words: "Take no thought for your life." "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin."

Amen, pass the bowsaw and the kindling.

Do you want to know what the real impediments are that will keep a person from this kind of life?
** Reproduction and rearing children. Once the nanny state figures you're raising your family in a structure w/o water and electricity, they'll swoop down hard like when Custer massacred the Cheyenne on the Wasita River---and take your children away.
** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.
** The bane of debt whereby you'll never leave the workplace.
** The choking indifference to Nature and wilderness and your place in it.
** The stifling smothering thought of what your parents or what your friends will think.

ETC ETC

John B
10-13-2016, 09:25
Do you want to know what the real impediments are that will keep a person from this kind of life?
** Reproduction and rearing children. Once the nanny state figures you're raising your family in a structure w/o water and electricity, they'll swoop down hard like when Custer massacred the Cheyenne on the Wasita River---and take your children away.
** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.
** The bane of debt whereby you'll never leave the workplace.
** The choking indifference to Nature and wilderness and your place in it.
** The stifling smothering thought of what your parents or what your friends will think.

ETC ETC

You seem to be on Whiteblaze quite a bit, so what made you give up life w/o electricity, the internet, and passing the days living in a tent?

left52side
10-13-2016, 10:21
What I call the secret to life: Seeing how little money you can make and still be happy.
Exactly Tipi ,you hit the nail on the head with this one :).
As far as other comments made on this topic,who is to say where others have been homeless etc.
I guess my point is even in Haiti and central america people still have small luxury's,cell phone ,electricity,etc.
Our luxuries here in america obviously tend to be better than most other countries but hardly makes us dregs of society ... I think simple living without worrying about silly monetary things your whole life until one day your dead with the same sized coffin in the same depth hole as johnny the homeless guy down the street that was belittled for being the dreg of the town,when actually johnny choose to live in the woods and the simple life,,,
I dont hold attachment to most common things is what im saying I suppose. I could certainly walk away from my tiny home right now with everything I own in it and I know that I will be fine because I still have life and that daily is a blessing,everything else is replaceable...


You seem to be on Whiteblaze quite a bit, so what made you give up life w/o electricity, the internet, and passing the days living in a tent?

I think Tipi answered this question already in the post lol.

** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.

And I think you completely missed the point,just because one chooses to live A simple carefree life doesn't mean that they have to wipe there asses with grape leaves...
Cell phones with WIFI and data are available everywhere now at a low monthly cost,as is internet at libraries in town.
Living simple has nothing to do with how much someone is on whiteblaze forums posting ,it is about the peace of mind of knowing that you can walk away from said situations without having a mental collapse.

rocketsocks
10-13-2016, 10:26
Dogwood highlights the negative side of homelessness but ignores the other part of the conversation we've been having here---the desire to live outdoors in the woods in primitive structures for the love of the outdoors and done with a conscious desire to embrace poverty and spend little to no effort developing a career---What I call the secret to life: Seeing how little money you can make and still be happy.

During my 21 years of Tipi life I never made more than $5,000 a year working one day a week as a church janitor 10 miles away in a small town. I sometimes bicycled to work, often hitchhiked, later used a cheap motorcycle that got 75 miles to the gallon. I wanted no career which would impede my opportunity to live outdoors. I was legal on 40 acres of mountain land from the land owners, and I had no drivable access to my ridgetop home---just a one mile trail I cut in with a tough elevation gain of a thousand feet.

To American standards I was homeless. To Dogwood's standard I was probably the dregs of society. But to me? I thought of myself as the luckiest man in America, a combination of John Muir, Ed Abbey and Milarepa. And I bought wholly into the mindset of both Native American spirituality and Yoga philosophy: The real church is a couple people sitting under a tree. A Lakota medicine man Matthew King said it best: "God is Nature. Nature is God."

I was even inspired by Jesus and his "homelessness" and his words: "Take no thought for your life." "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin."

Amen, pass the bowsaw and the kindling.

Do you want to know what the real impediments are that will keep a person from this kind of life?
** Reproduction and rearing children. Once the nanny state figures you're raising your family in a structure w/o water and electricity, they'll swoop down hard like when Custer massacred the Cheyenne on the Wasita River---and take your children away.
** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.
** The bane of debt whereby you'll never leave the workplace.
** The choking indifference to Nature and wilderness and your place in it.
** The stifling smothering thought of what your parents or what your friends will think.

ETC ETC
All good points! Most people wouldn't have a clue how to live off the land, and it scares the hell outta them to think "what if" I had no home...it's often easier to stay the indentured in a system that's familiar, tough as it is at times.

Tipi Walter
10-13-2016, 10:28
You seem to be on Whiteblaze quite a bit, so what made you give up life w/o electricity, the internet, and passing the days living in a tent?

After spending 30 years in one location I was ready for a change and so I moved to the mountains of TN and built a series of Witus (wigwams) and set up various large tents on a creek in Monroe County TN. I met Little Mitten and we set up a home place in a double wide for many years and this allowed me the opportunity to backpack and camp in various adjacent wilderness areas, something I couldn't do at my permanent Tipi as it wasn't movable. While the Tipi had everything, I missed real wilderness and waterfalls and mountain tops and by leaving and getting an indoor basecamp with Mitten I'm now able to visit these wild places on ranging backpacking trips.

It's funny, but when I first met Mitten I told her "I'm gonna return to the tipi eventually no matter what---with or without you." We worked out a decent compromise for both of us---she doesn't have to leave her family and live in a tipi, and I can devote large chunks of time to the outdoors.

Tipi Walter
10-13-2016, 10:48
I think simple living without worrying about silly monetary things your whole life until one day your dead with the same sized coffin in the same depth hole as johnny the homeless guy down the street that was belittled for being the dreg of the town,when actually johnny choose to live in the woods and the simple life,,,


Excellent post and wonderful expression---same sized coffin in the same depth hole---about says it all.


All good points! Most people wouldn't have a clue how to live off the land, and it scares the hell outta them to think "what if" I had no home...it's often easier to stay the indentured in a system that's familiar, tough as it is at times.

It's funny but when I'm driving around or thinking about the woods or hanging out with my friends I often think about Plan B if I lose everything and have to return permanently to the woods. I look at a distant forest hill and think, "I could live up there in a yurt" or "My friends have a 100 acres, they'll let me put up a canvas tipi!". No matter how complicated life becomes, I always expect to have it taken away and I'm back to where it all began: On a foot trail with a pack making my way to a secluded camping spot.

The beauty of this solution is that most Americans never want this option, and so it leaves more for me.

TNhiker
10-13-2016, 10:53
what happened to the tipi on the 40 acres?

Tipi Walter
10-13-2016, 11:00
what happened to the tipi on the 40 acres?

The 40 acres still belongs to the land owners---I got permission to set up on the most remote part of their land. The old tipi pole frame still stands along with the cast iron woodstove. I've made several trips back up there in the last 15 years and always like to backpack with a tent and set up camp nearby. The wonderful trail to the top is now gone so it's a bushwack.

SWODaddy
10-13-2016, 11:26
We think it's bad with 7.3 billion of us, wait until we reach 12 billion etc. America is projected to be around 450 million by 2050, I guess our goal is to have over a billion consumers like China. Kiss what's left of wilderness goodbye.

The world population isn't going anywhere near 12 billion.

TNhiker
10-13-2016, 11:34
The 40 acres still belongs to the land owners---I got permission to set up on the most remote part of their land. The old tipi pole frame still stands along with the cast iron woodstove. I've made several trips back up there in the last 15 years and always like to backpack with a tent and set up camp nearby. The wonderful trail to the top is now gone so it's a bushwack.




wonder if theyd be open to having another person who wants to drop outta society live on their land? :)

Uriah
10-13-2016, 11:43
The world population isn't going anywhere near 12 billion.

You might want to watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8). You might even see me sitting in class.

rocketsocks
10-13-2016, 12:10
You might want to watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8). You might even see me sitting in class.cool video. will someone smarter than me please calculate the doubling rate for say...the Appalachian Trail. Thanks in advance.

Uriah
10-13-2016, 12:41
cool video. will someone smarter than me please calculate the doubling rate for say...the Appalachian Trail. Thanks in advance.

There are too many variables involved (not to mention no concrete figures even to this point). As world population expands, the AT (et al) may very well see a larger rate of increase, since many of us will need a coping mechanism in place, to help us deal with the increase in population.

Dogwood
10-13-2016, 13:16
Dogwood highlights the negative side of homelessness but ignores the other part of the conversation we've been having here---the desire to live outdoors in the woods in primitive structures for the love of the outdoors and done with a conscious desire to embrace poverty and spend little to no effort developing a career---What I call the secret to life: Seeing how little money you can make and still be happy.

During my 21 years of Tipi life I never made more than $5,000 a year working one day a week as a church janitor 10 miles away in a small town. I sometimes bicycled to work, often hitchhiked, later used a cheap motorcycle that got 75 miles to the gallon. I wanted no career which would impede my opportunity to live outdoors. I was legal on 40 acres of mountain land from the land owners, and I had no drivable access to my ridgetop home---just a one mile trail I cut in with a tough elevation gain of a thousand feet.

To American standards I was homeless. To Dogwood's standard I was probably the dregs of society. But to me? I thought of myself as the luckiest man in America, a combination of John Muir, Ed Abbey and Milarepa. And I bought wholly into the mindset of both Native American spirituality and Yoga philosophy: The real church is a couple people sitting under a tree. A Lakota medicine man Matthew King said it best: "God is Nature. Nature is God."

I was even inspired by Jesus and his "homelessness" and his words: "Take no thought for your life." "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin."

Amen, pass the bowsaw and the kindling.

Do you want to know what the real impediments are that will keep a person from this kind of life?
** Reproduction and rearing children. Once the nanny state figures you're raising your family in a structure w/o water and electricity, they'll swoop down hard like when Custer massacred the Cheyenne on the Wasita River---and take your children away.
** The desire for the plugged in life---electricity, central air, smartfones, the wall thermostat. televised football etc.
** The bane of debt whereby you'll never leave the workplace.
** The choking indifference to Nature and wilderness and your place in it.
** The stifling smothering thought of what your parents or what your friends will think.

ETC ETC

Your sentiments were beautifully expressed.

To restate it again, in a way I can make no clearer, I am one of those who has lived homeless to seek that spoken about Thoreau like experience. However, it is being thoroughly disingenuous to say one has to be homeless to have a Thoreau like experience. I share your beliefs about connecting with Nature by immersing in it and recognizing humanity as not apart and above the environment but inextricably part of it. As Chief Seattle Leader Of The Suquamish and Duwamish Tribes expresses, "humankind is but one thread in an interconnected web of life. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are (somehow) bound together. All things connect.' I don't see Nature as something to be recklessly raped and pillaged for economic gain. I do believe in a Higher Power who I call GOD and I don't believe it ever intended that humans destroy the Earth justifying it through twisting of a Bible verse. Humans were originally meant to love and care for the Earth with GOD adored more than it.

My heart wells up when I read of Muir's quotes. I intimately think and believe as Muir and share Aldo Leopold's sentiments. I am a Naturalist and environmentalist by any sense of the definition.

I share many of the same considerations about U.S. culture that result in waste, environmental destruction, rampant consumerism, and idolatry of money that you and a few others have shared. I see truth in what Steve Howe, once field editor of Backpacker, said in response to his Sierra High Route experiences 'ever notice how unhealthy civilization can be?' I recognize truth and wisdom in Sun Bear of the Chippewa Tribe's observation: "I do not think the measure of a civilization is how tall its buildings of concrete are but rather how well its people have learned to relate to their environment and fellow man.'


However, I can't ignore the facts. I can't ignore study after confirmed study. I can't ignore my own extensive observations. I can't ignore considering people based on their character. I can't ignore we reap what we sow. I can't ignore there is great purpose in work however it's defined. I can't ignore quality passionate work produces fruit in so many forms where an abundance of fruit can be shared with others who have less. I can't ignore there is honor and satisfaction in work. I can't ignore for every Dick Proenneke, Eustace Conway, or perhaps some on Live Free or Die, or even like you Tipi there are 100 others who are homeless who are not after a Thoreau like experience and want to live more off the work of others than off the work of their own labor, who are criminally minded, who are utterly self absorbed, have drug habits, are mentally ill, and who want to somehow benefit from the same system or culture they despise while not being subjected to it in any way.

How much of this will be ignored?

You can't ignore people's character and motivations no matter how well intentioned. Even with the best intentions can come bitter disappointment. "Most of the evil in this world is done by people with good intentions" T.S. Eliot

SWODaddy
10-13-2016, 13:40
You might want to watch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI1C9DyIi_8). You might even see me sitting in class.

I can't watch the video right now. Can you summarize the 74min lecture? Any estimates I've seen assuming exponential population growth make a lot of poor assumptions. UN Medium estimates for world population top out just under 10 billion and then decline. Personally, I think the low estimate peak of ~7.5 is closer to reality.

Dogwood
10-13-2016, 13:44
It is laughable to imply the majority of the impoverished streethomeless, some of which are now becoming/have become more ruralized, have at the top of their priority list a keen interest in Naturalism, Environmentalism/environmental protection, or Conservatism. Living "carefree" or "free" or "off the land" SO OFTEN results in being careless, living free for oneself doing only as oneself wants while somehow neglecting others or the systems they despise yet somehow benefitting from those same systems, or off others. These are the people who should be allowed to roam freely doing as they desire in National Forests, National Parks, Wilderness Areas, or on a National Scenic Trail such as the Appalachian Trail? Are National Forests, or "the woods" however the woods be defined, typically equipped to handle influxes of impoverished homeless without dire consequences to Nature and the environment? While were at it why don't we let logging or mining or utility/water companies run rampant on the same lands?

Uriah
10-13-2016, 13:56
...I can't ignore the facts. I can't ignore study after confirmed study. I can't ignore my own extensive observations. I can't ignore considering people based on their character. I can't ignore we reap what we sow. I can't ignore there is great purpose in work however it's defined. I can't ignore quality passionate work produces fruit in so many forms where an abundance of fruit can be shared with others who have less. I can't ignore there is honor and satisfaction in work. I can't ignore for every Dick Proenneke, Eustace Conway, or perhaps some on Live Free or Die, or even like you Tipi there are 100 others who are homeless who are not after a Thoreau like experience and want to live more off the work of others than off the work of their own labor, who are criminally minded, who are utterly self absorbed, have drug habits, are mentally ill, and who want to somehow benefit from the same system or culture they despise while not being subjected to it in any way. How much of this will be ignored? You can't ignore people's character and motivations no matter how well intentioned. Even with the best intentions can come bitter disappointment. "Most of the evil in this world is done by people with good intentions" T.S. Eliot

In failing to ignore these considerations, these facts, you must then consider what you can do about them, no? I mean, what good is paying attention to it all (or any other negative input), without giving an honest effort to change it, if even just some of it or a small part of it?

"Sentiment without action is the ruin of the soul," said that wise old desert rat.

I know my place in this world, and it is way beyond small. Utterly insignificant, in fact.

Sure, another wise guy once said, "Be the change you want to see," but in knowing we cannot change others or the world around us, it then becomes easier to set our focus elsewhere. Our time is short, so we best spend it how we see fit. We're lucky we get to do so.

This is all a bit negative perhaps, but it is a fact that I cannot ignore.

Tipi Walter
10-13-2016, 14:42
These are the people who should be allowed to roam freely doing as they desire in National Forests, National Parks, Wilderness Areas, or on a National Scenic Trail such as the Appalachian Trail? Are National Forests, or "the woods" however the woods be defined, typically equipped to handle influxes of impoverished homeless without dire consequences to Nature and the environment? While were at it why don't we let logging or mining or utility/water companies run rampant on the same lands?

What would happen if all these homeless bums you speak about invade my woods? Well, Miss Nature and her daughters Severe Cold, High Winds, Deep Snows, Cold Rain and Unbearable Heat will sort them out quick enough. There are only 500,000 homeless people in the United States, and most are in cities. Will they all become backpackers living in national forests? Doubtful. Where will they get their free meals and street drugs and whiskey? How will they ever climb the Nutbuster Trail? How will they roll a shopping cart down a rocky foot trail?

But if we have a true catastrophe or total war like the invasion by Germany into Russia in 1941 on the Eastern Front all bets are off. Hordes of people not killed off will be living everywhere and we'll be eating our dead. Whatever national forests are left will be so irradiated as to be dead zones. The goal of modern civilizations will have been realized and the War on Nature complete: Utter destruction.

Until then lets sleep under what trees are left and let's drink clean cold spring water. Get your gear and go. I was born in 1950 which means: We can be annihilated at any moment by the touch of a button. "Until then" became my generation's mantra. So go get your gear and hit the woods.

Dogwood
10-13-2016, 14:55
I don't think you're being negative. It is a thought I've had many times followed up by massive action.

That same wise guy was relating by changing ourselves we in some measure are changing the world. So, when I decided to not behave as and be an impoverished homeless non working self absorbed drug abusing criminally minded environmentally destructive person was I not doing what he said?

When spending time with the widow, offering to mow her lawn and cut her shrubs for free, and sharing lunch with her, or shoveling the snow off a widower's walkway, holding the hands of an AIDS patient in the later stages in a hospital bed abandoned by family and friends offering non-fearful unstigmatized human touch with a willingness to feel something of what they were feeling, singing Christmas carols to the elderly and infirm in an assisted living facility bringing joy to their faces and maybe offering a small material present, volunteering washing dishes and feeding people through sweat of my own rewarding honorable labor at homeless shelters, being in the grocery store check out line noting an impoverished unwed single mother with two young children struggling offering to pay the families groceries, offering jobs in my own companies to homeless people willing to work, literally removing a shirt off the back or getting off a bicycle and giving it to someone needier than me...is that sentiment without action?

I absolutely believe we can have a wide ranging influence on others solely on our own. One person's actions can change the world! Umm, Gandhi, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Einstein, Newton, Mother Teresa, Hitler, Stalin, JFK...

Dogwood
10-13-2016, 15:47
What would happen if all these homeless bums you speak about invade my woods?

What does that mean to you? your woods, my woods. That seems very exclusive of others which is a dominating mindset among the homeless. Are you speaking about something you own, are somehow legally entitled to? "Woods" are, as far as I know, usually privately or publicly owned. I thought National Forests were collectively owned by the American people for the benefit of all people BUT MANAGED BY THE USFS NOT MANAGED BY YOU SPECIFICALLY OUTSIDE OF ITS MANAGEMENT? So, isn't it our woods you are referring not your or my woods?

You already have shared your disdain for "red necks with ozark trail tents", "redneck camping", "redneck detritus", and "redneck pigs" leaving trash behind. I share the same general feelings about environmental lack of consideration but will not use that type of language or prejudicial language. What will happen to "your woods" if homeless people move in EVEN IF ON A SEASONAL OR SHORT TERM BASIS? What are you going to do?

LOOK AT YOUR OWN PICTURES AND READ YOUR OWN WORDS!

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=51269&c=555
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/117957-17-Days-with-the-Cranberries
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/118352-Human-Trail-Pigs
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=522790

Uriah
10-13-2016, 16:01
I don't think you're being negative. It is a thought I've had many times followed up by massive action. That same wise guy was relating by changing ourselves we in some measure are changing the world. So, when I decided to not behave as and be an impoverished homeless non working self absorbed drug abusing criminally minded environmentally destructive person was I not doing what he said?

You were essentially doing what he said, and that's undeniably a good thing. A small effect, but an effect nonetheless, and I believe well worth the effort, if it makes you happy. Whether it makes a difference on a grander scale is debatable at best.


When spending time with the widow, offering to mow her lawn and cut her shrubs for free, and sharing lunch with her, or shoveling the snow off a widower's walkway, holding the hands of an AIDS patient in the later stages in a hospital bed abandoned by family and friends offering non-fearful unstigmatized human touch with a willingness to feel something of what they were feeling, singing Christmas carols to the elderly and infirm in an assisted living facility bringing joy to their faces and maybe offering a small material present, volunteering washing dishes and feeding people through sweat of my own rewarding honorable labor at homeless shelters, being in the grocery store check out line noting an impoverished unwed single mother with two young children struggling offering to pay the families groceries, offering jobs in my own companies to homeless people willing to work, literally removing a shirt off the back or getting off a bicycle and giving it to someone needier than me...is that sentiment without action?

All noble deeds, again without question. You are clearly a decent human.


I absolutely believe we can have a wide ranging influence on others solely on our own. One person's actions can change the world! Umm, Gandhi, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Einstein, Newton, Mother Teresa, Hitler, Stalin, JFK...

And this is where we differ. I don't harbor much hope on the grander scale, though I am very much a personal optimist. None of those you mentioned have had a major impact upon my life or the lives of those around me (namely the animals and the landscapes in which they live and depend upon). I freely admit however that Thoreau and Abbey and in particular Muir have had a substantial impact, and you could have just as easily brought them up, and so I understand your point.

But the truth is humanity is heading full steam ahead, into new, uncharted territory. He always has of course, only now there is a far, far greater [er, worse] number of us, each with a much larger footprint/effect. History has shown (and will continue to) the effect others have had to this point, but little of what they did (or said) can stop the issues we confront today, and the issues we will continue to face in the future, some we may not even know about right now. Few things will affect mankind like human overcrowding and/or population, dwindling "resources", widespread pollution and contamination, climatic change, and so forth. Have you heard of Universe 25, by chance, that most intriguing behavioral sink? I do not think we humans are any different than those rats, personally. When push comes to shove, we'll likely see more problems.

The video link I pasted earlier basically comes down to overpopulation and its effects, and what might be done to prevent of it, given the inclination toward economic prosperity and humanistic greed. (Keep in mind Dr. Bartlett is a wise, intelligent human being, on the same sort of scale as some of those you mentioned above.) None of the solutions are (currently) desirable, but may very well be obligatory.

rocketsocks
10-13-2016, 18:47
I don't think you're being negative. It is a thought I've had many times followed up by massive action.

That same wise guy was relating by changing ourselves we in some measure are changing the world. So, when I decided to not behave as and be an impoverished homeless non working self absorbed drug abusing criminally minded environmentally destructive person was I not doing what he said?

When spending time with the widow, offering to mow her lawn and cut her shrubs for free, and sharing lunch with her, or shoveling the snow off a widower's walkway, holding the hands of an AIDS patient in the later stages in a hospital bed abandoned by family and friends offering non-fearful unstigmatized human touch with a willingness to feel something of what they were feeling, singing Christmas carols to the elderly and infirm in an assisted living facility bringing joy to their faces and maybe offering a small material present, volunteering washing dishes and feeding people through sweat of my own rewarding honorable labor at homeless shelters, being in the grocery store check out line noting an impoverished unwed single mother with two young children struggling offering to pay the families groceries, offering jobs in my own companies to homeless people willing to work, literally removing a shirt off the back or getting off a bicycle and giving it to someone needier than me...is that sentiment without action?

I absolutely believe we can have a wide ranging influence on others solely on our own. One person's actions can change the world! Umm, Gandhi, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Einstein, Newton, Mother Teresa, Hitler, Stalin, JFK......and Bob Dylan.

pickNgrin
10-13-2016, 19:32
This has been an interesting discussion. I admire the "Thoreau" homeless and sometimes fantasize about being one of them. A lifelong dream of mine has been to be a hermit. The other type of homeless… not so much.

If you are single and unattached, it is a seductive lifestyle. But it begins to break down if you want to have a family and raise kids. To inflict a nonstandard lifestyle on kids and possibly limit their opportunities is not cool IMHO. The Thoreau lifestyle is somewhat selfish.

For me, I can drop out of the "normal" lifestyle and adopt the ways of the homeless. This is called camping. It is hard to go the other way. If you commit to the Thoreau life, you are all in. It would be difficult to break out of. If medical issues crop up, or other financial issues, or if you simply get tired of living that way, it would be difficult to "drop back in" to normal society.

I would love to win the lottery and then live the simple life! It would be the best of both worlds. :)

Lone Wolf
10-13-2016, 19:44
...and Bob Dylan.

he's terrible

Wise Old Owl
10-13-2016, 20:00
What would happen if all these homeless bums you speak about invade my woods? Well, Miss Nature and her daughters Severe Cold, High Winds, Deep Snows, Cold Rain and Unbearable Heat will sort them out quick enough. There are only 500,000 homeless people in the United States, and most are in cities. Will they all become backpackers living in national forests? Doubtful. Where will they get their free meals and street drugs and whiskey? How will they ever climb the Nutbuster Trail? How will they roll a shopping cart down a rocky foot trail?

But if we have a true catastrophe or total war like the invasion by Germany into Russia in 1941 on the Eastern Front all bets are off. Hordes of people not killed off will be living everywhere and we'll be eating our dead. Whatever national forests are left will be so irradiated as to be dead zones. The goal of modern civilizations will have been realized and the War on Nature complete: Utter destruction.

Until then lets sleep under what trees are left and let's drink clean cold spring water. Get your gear and go. I was born in 1950 which means: We can be annihilated at any moment by the touch of a button. "Until then" became my generation's mantra. So go get your gear and hit the woods.

No biggie the statistic you mentioned was faulted. When a small county seat in the middle of Chester County houses 90 men and 15 women each night many are turned away and have to stay at a nearby church I am familiar with.

Perhaps this would enlighten you, but it too is suspect to me.

CLICK (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2016/02/counting-street-sleepers)

left52side
10-13-2016, 20:04
I would love to win the lottery and then live the simple life! It would be the best of both worlds. :)

One can dream cant they lone wolf.
But oh the joy I would spread to the less fortunate....

Tipi Walter
10-13-2016, 20:04
What would happen if all these homeless bums you speak about invade my woods?

What will happen to "your woods" if homeless people move in EVEN IF ON A SEASONAL OR SHORT TERM BASIS? What are you going to do?

LOOK AT YOUR OWN PICTURES AND READ YOUR OWN WORDS!

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=51269&c=555
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/117957-17-Days-with-the-Cranberries
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/118352-Human-Trail-Pigs
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=522790

What am I going to do? What are we going to do? We clean up after the motards and miscreants and keep hiking. We put out their burning fires and dismantle their camp furniture and gather up all their trash and keep hiking.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/17-Days-with-the-Cranberries/i-M8M3RPh/0/XL/TRIP%20173%20031-XL.jpg
I spent 30 minutes at my campsite in Cold Spring Gap gathering up this redneck effluvia and placing it in one spot which was later carted out by some backpacking friends.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/Back-In-Citico/i-DLP43S6/0/XL/Trip%20159%20048-XL.jpg
I discovered this mess on the North Fork Citico Creek and and spent an hour away from my camp tearing it apart and scattering all the wood. Sad part is, the idiots cut down several living trees to make them feel like wannabe Davy Crocketts for a day.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/Back-In-Citico/i-bHJbrKB/0/XL/Trip%20159%20047-XL.jpg
And the saddest part of all is they left their campfire burning but were long gone and driving down the interstate.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2007/The-Hangover-Mountan-Clearcut/i-jHZskHL/0/L/TRIP%2069%20036-L.jpg
But you worry about what the homeless will do to our forests---it's the forest service who do the most damage by far. This is the top of Hangover Mt in the middle of the Joyce Kilmer Slickrock wilderness after they clearcut an acre of the mountaintop to land a helicopter in 2007. You'd think a designated wilderness would be safe from such idiocy. It is not.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/21-Days-on-Warriors-Passage/i-QwBKr2g/0/XL/P1000229-XL.jpg
Did the homeless ravage this mountain with a clearcut? No, it was the forest service. Saw this on my last trip in the Cherokee NF below Waucheesi Bald.

Uriah
10-13-2016, 20:44
This has been an interesting discussion. I admire the "Thoreau" homeless and sometimes fantasize about being one of them. A lifelong dream of mine has been to be a hermit....

...The Thoreau lifestyle is somewhat selfish.

Some of us could argue (ad nauseam) that 'selfish' is having children...a replica of thyself. All creatures under the sun are selfish, so we needn't go there.

Tipi Walter
10-13-2016, 22:27
Some of us could argue (ad nauseam) that 'selfish' is having children...a replica of thyself. All creatures under the sun are selfish, so we needn't go there.

I immediately thought the same thing but I wasn't going to be the one to say it. I would go further to say not only could having children be considered selfish, but with overpopulation choking out the natural world more and more, reproducing could be considered even criminal.

rafe
10-13-2016, 22:28
he's terrible

It wasn't Ted Nugent making the headlines today. :p

Slo-go'en
10-13-2016, 23:05
I doubt there is any risk of the woods being overrun with homeless, but I definitely saw plenty of evidence of it from PA through to CT this spring. From Walmart tents set up near trail heads to "hikers" who haven't moved from the area in weeks. The ones I meet were harmless enough, but some were not quite all there.

Dogwood
10-13-2016, 23:11
... None of those you mentioned have had a major impact upon my life or the lives of those around me (namely the animals and the landscapes in which they live and depend upon). I freely admit however that Thoreau and Abbey and in particular Muir have had a substantial impact, and you could have just as easily brought them up, and so I understand your point...

Have you ever seen It's a Wonderful Life? For those who haven't it's a story about a man portrayed by the great Jimmy Stewart who thought just such thing. He found out that every action he took and every action he didn't take, because he wasn't there, he was given a gift to see what the Universe would be like if he hadn't been born; he set into motion a whole series of events with consequences unknown to him by being born and every action he took. No matter how famous or known or influential each of us think we are or are not every action we take and every action not taken has profound far reaching effects that we may never entirely know about. Each individual action is like a stone thrown into the surface of a large pond that ripples far to the edge of the pond where we even can't currently see.

Every one's LIFE has great impact, meaning, and purpose. And we each can choose how we will live and act. This extends to all life not just humanity.

One Half
10-13-2016, 23:23
When we attempt to thru in a few years my husband and I will be technically homeless. Once our son is on his own my husband is taking a "hiatus" from work and we will end our lease and move all our possessions into storage. Still haven't figured out all the details with "legal address" etc but we will.

Dogwood
10-13-2016, 23:26
No biggie the statistic you mentioned was faulted. When a small county seat in the middle of Chester County houses 90 men and 15 women each night many are turned away and have to stay at a nearby church I am familiar with.

Perhaps this would enlighten you, but it too is suspect to me.

CLICK (http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2016/02/counting-street-sleepers)

Indeed another highly suspect statistic based on dubious accounting procedures. The actual homeless count will be higher based on redefining who is homeless, when the accounting takes place, different accounting procedures, etc. Another example is the true rate of unemployment which is higher perhaps as much as double as it currently is reported. Redefine how the unemployed rate is calculated and voila we have a new number that makes the current administration look like they are doing better than they are.

SkeeterPee
10-13-2016, 23:55
I work some with the homeless in the winter when it gets cold community churches open up and house them overnight with a warm dinner and breakfast. I would say almost all have some drug or alcohol problem but many are in recovery. You meet a few who are temporarily homeless and you know they are working and will be back in a house soon. Others have really no interest in not being homeless. They tell me they never miss a meal. Several do have tents so if the weather is not horrible they may come in and eat and leave after dinner. Almost all just want a place to sleep for the night and not be bothered. They are most bothered by the ones that get high or drunk and cause problems.

I doubt many homeless are staying along the trail except were it is close to a town/city. As someone said they are looking for an easy meal, quick cash paying job, and unfortunately drugs/alcohol.

Lnj
10-14-2016, 10:55
This has been an interesting discussion. I admire the "Thoreau" homeless and sometimes fantasize about being one of them. A lifelong dream of mine has been to be a hermit. The other type of homeless… not so much.

If you are single and unattached, it is a seductive lifestyle. But it begins to break down if you want to have a family and raise kids. To inflict a nonstandard lifestyle on kids and possibly limit their opportunities is not cool IMHO. The Thoreau lifestyle is somewhat selfish.

For me, I can drop out of the "normal" lifestyle and adopt the ways of the homeless. This is called camping. It is hard to go the other way. If you commit to the Thoreau life, you are all in. It would be difficult to break out of. If medical issues crop up, or other financial issues, or if you simply get tired of living that way, it would be difficult to "drop back in" to normal society.

I would love to win the lottery and then live the simple life! It would be the best of both worlds. :)

YES! All of this....

Hosh
10-14-2016, 11:22
This country with it's public and private sector programs and policies makes being "homeless" pretty comfortable. A free meal, bed, phone, clothing, transportation can be had with little effort. There are very limited consequences to the recipients who rarely have to do anything in exchange.

The most tragic examples are the homeless families on tough times, between jobs, needing a helping hand or a break to get back on level footing.

I think a common thread among the larger population is a genuine disdain, maybe even hatred of authority. They don't want to be told what to do, when to do it, and find keeping job commitments a PIA.

Uriah
10-14-2016, 11:52
Have you ever seen It's a Wonderful Life? For those who haven't it's a story about a man portrayed by the great Jimmy Stewart who thought just such thing. He found out that every action he took and every action he didn't take, because he wasn't there, he was given a gift to see what the Universe would be like if he hadn't been born; he set into motion a whole series of events with consequences unknown to him by being born and every action he took. No matter how famous or known or influential each of us think we are or are not every action we take and every action not taken has profound far reaching effects that we may never entirely know about. Each individual action is like a stone thrown into the surface of a large pond that ripples far to the edge of the pond where we even can't currently see. Every one's LIFE has great impact, meaning, and purpose. And we each can choose how we will live and act. This extends to all life not just humanity.

I fear I'm a little too late in choosing the best birth date, but I've heard of the movie and of Jimmy Stewart, mostly, ironically enough, because he was from the same small town as Edward Abbey...Indiana, Pennsylvania. (Few residents there have even heard of Cactus Ed!) I'll see if our local library has the film, since it sounds like there's something to glean from it.

Your excellent summary of the film is reminiscent of a Muir quote: "When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the Universe."

It's a tough sentiment to dispute and I'd sound like an utter idiot arguing with Muir, and not just because he's long been dead.

But I can't escape the feeling that, except perhaps for our immediate circle of kith and kin, none of us matter all that much (I'm a workable example here), just as the trophy animal shot by the hunter doesn't matter (to him), or the acres of forest being demolished each moment don't matter (to most humans). Muir mattered to me and the open lands we enjoy today (including the AT) were a direct result of his intelligence, energy, connections, persuasiveness, and use of time.

Humanity may find in hindsight that the movie and Muir were right...that ALL matter matters (or mattered)! But by then it may be too late. Our way of life today will be a new way of life tomorrow ("change is inevitable!" cry the fools, as if man"made" destruction itself cannot be avoided), as all those Universal hitches are being unhitched. With more of us crowding one another every day, our individual significance decreases, while our collective impact extends, both farther in geographic reach (and effect), and into the future.

Regardless, it's a good time to be alive (aren't they all?), especially if we can grasp that our time is brief and ultimately without meaning. We can try to convince ourselves we are so self-important and have meaning (i.e., purpose), but on the whole, our legacy to future generations (of animals and plants and humans and all else) won't be a positive one.

Tipi Walter
10-14-2016, 13:24
Humanity may find in hindsight that the movie and Muir were right...that ALL matter matters (or mattered)! But by then it may be too late.


I take comfort in the idea that the deity or God or the creator or Mother Nature or whoever or whatever loves wilderness. Just look around the solar system and the galaxy and the universe. The place is so wild and so vast that puny ignorant Man will NEVER foul or clearcut or besmirch a hundred-trillion billioneth of it, if that.

The earth was once just as wild and will return to pristine wilderness after another big meteor strike or another ice age. Apparently modern humans hate wilderness---the skies are filled with the nonstop roar of jet traffic---meanwhile the vast universe is nothing but wilderness. How wild is it? People equate Mt Everest to being wild as humans have a difficult time living on its summit. So too the universe. Go backpacking on the surface of the sun and see how long you last. Go to Mars and endure the cold nights and hot days. You won't find walmart parking lots on the surface of Jupiter. So God must love wilderness. And to stick with the Creator's plan we humans should love wilderness too.

Uriah
10-14-2016, 14:28
I take comfort in the idea that the deity or God or the creator or Mother Nature or whoever or whatever loves wilderness. Just look around the solar system and the galaxy and the universe. The place is so wild and so vast that puny ignorant Man will NEVER foul or clearcut or besmirch a hundred-trillion billioneth of it, if that.

The earth was once just as wild and will return to pristine wilderness after another big meteor strike or another ice age. Apparently modern humans hate wilderness---the skies are filled with the nonstop roar of jet traffic---meanwhile the vast universe is nothing but wilderness. How wild is it? People equate Mt Everest to being wild as humans have a difficult time living on its summit. So too the universe. Go backpacking on the surface of the sun and see how long you last. Go to Mars and endure the cold nights and hot days. You won't find walmart parking lots on the surface of Jupiter. So God must love wilderness. And to stick with the Creator's plan we humans should love wilderness too.

Tipi,
You and I see eye-to-eye on this and so many other matters, and you're one of the main reasons I stick around on this forum, along with a few other thinker-folks. One grows tired of the endless discussions on gear, or those overly succinct responses that entail or engender little thought, or that add little, if anything, to the discussion. I've read a good number of your journals and will continue to do; it helps me maintain at lease some faith in humanity!

rocketsocks
10-14-2016, 16:25
he's terrible
Why don't you go play in truck traffic

Dogwood
10-14-2016, 18:08
"And to stick with the Creator's plan we humans should love wilderness too."

Here is where we are in total agreement as devoted Naturalists, Ecologists, Environmentalists, wilderness lovers, and Conservationists.

Insight that I know in my heart of hearts, that I can feel resonating in my soul,

Enjoy, by Aldo Leopold:

“One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on land is quite invisible to laymen. An ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business, or he must be the doctor who sees the marks of death in a community that believes itself well and does not want to be told otherwise.”

“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”

“To those devoid of imagination a blank place on the map is a useless waste; to others, the most valuable part.”

“The modern dogma is comfort at any cost.”

“The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant: 'What good is it?”

“Civilization has so cluttered this elemental man-earth relationship with gadgets and middlemen that awareness of it is growing dim. We fancy that industry supports us, forgetting what supports industry.”

“Like winds and sunsets, wild things were taken for granted until progress began to do away with them. Now we face the question whether a still higher 'standard of living' is worth its cost in things natural, wild and free. For us of the minority, the opportunity to see geese is more important than television.”

“We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes – something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters’ paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.”

“We abuse land because we see it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.”

Dogwood
10-14-2016, 18:31
This is another topic though perhaps more accurately a sub topic to the OP.

Lone Wolf
10-14-2016, 19:41
Why don't you go play in truck traffic

i do daily. dylan still is terrible

Venchka
10-14-2016, 22:55
When we attempt to thru in a few years my husband and I will be technically homeless. Once our son is on his own my husband is taking a "hiatus" from work and we will end our lease and move all our possessions into storage. Still haven't figured out all the details with "legal address" etc but we will.
There are mail services that cater to full time RV dwellers who are also effectively homeless.
Or use your son's address.
Wayne


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pilgrimskywheel
10-15-2016, 14:57
I'm not homeless - I'm houseless. Sing the national anthem one time for me - what's the last line again?

johnnybgood
10-15-2016, 16:41
he's terrible


dylan still is terrible


Your restraint is truly admirable.

Dogwood
10-15-2016, 21:35
i do daily. dylan still is terrible

A Wolf in Traffic...sounds like the title off a Dylan song. :D

Venchka
10-15-2016, 23:36
A Wolf in Traffic...sounds like the title off a Dylan song. :D

Nope. Not Dylan.
More like Warren Zevon.
Wayne


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daddytwosticks
10-16-2016, 15:41
Nope. Not Dylan.
More like Warren Zevon.
Wayne


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...awoooooooo, lone wolves of Damascus.... :)

Dogwood
10-16-2016, 16:16
he he

Warren Zevon was actually really cool. I worked security at one of his concerts and got to hang out with him backstage after the concert for a couple of hrs. awooooohhh those were the days.

Venchka
10-16-2016, 19:41
...awoooooooo, lone wolves of Damascus.... :)

You got it.
Wayne


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Lone Wolf
10-16-2016, 20:07
...awoooooooo, lone wolves of Damascus.... :):cool:...............

rocketsocks
10-16-2016, 20:30
Lone Lupine Opines on mine :D

Greenlight
10-16-2016, 21:05
Its A Wonderful Life is played on cable TV every year around Christmas, you can record it for free if you have a DVR. Just set your service to look for it and record it when it airs.

bob7
10-17-2016, 12:44
I'm going to be homeless in the woods starting next march and, hopefully, will remains so for three or four years (as long as body and interest holds up). Having no kids helps.

sketcher709
11-10-2016, 21:07
For example, the state of Hawaii built new modern 1 BR apartments for the homeless with available public transportation to downtown areas to maintain jobs FREE who desired to transition from the streets. Only catch was you had to pass a urine test and have no outstanding felony warrants. Some of the housing was still vacant over a yr after being built!

One of the newer and more successful models for helping homeless is to provide them with the same arrangement above without the restriction of passing a urine test or having felony warrants cleared up or whatever. The premise is give them non-judgemental, clean and decent housing and once they have secured a home for themselves without the pressure or judgement, they are often able to then find the wherewithal to clean up their act, address legal issues, drug issues and mental health issues.

Wise Old Owl
11-10-2016, 21:39
Interesting sentiments and although I don't disagree, it appears even if you have several vices in life and cannot fend for yourself, here in my county there are churches and several community places without judgemental past transgressions.

They are:

Home of the Sparrow (for women & children only)
Good Samaritan
Safe Harbor - supported by corporations and private donation.
Connect - Points and they are federal & county tax funded
and about twenty other smaller denominational and latino organizations....

CLICK (http://www.shelterlistings.org/county/pa-chester-county.html)

So there is a good system in place here in PA to support the homeless - I am proud of their commitment and efforts, some in the past were client organizations that needed my help. Yes there are harsh rules at some of these places that some cannot commit to, but a criminal record is not a reason not to be let in.

I get it, there are homeless in the national parks... there will always be homeless somewhere, we can sit around and talk about it and discuss solutions, but it is a 2000+ year problem that has little answers.

hobby
11-10-2016, 21:59
Its A Wonderful Life is played on cable TV every year around Christmas, you can record it for free if you have a DVR. Just set your service to look for it and record it when it airs.

One of my favorite movies. I feel like it is somewhat the story of my life. I had the honor of playing George Baily, on stage, in a live production of 'It's a wonderful life'.

We have "It's a wonderful life" posted above our entry door----and it is!

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 01:02
One of the newer and more successful models for helping homeless is to provide them with the same arrangement above without the restriction of passing a urine test or having felony warrants cleared up or whatever. The premise is give them non-judgemental, clean and decent housing and once they have secured a home for themselves without the pressure or judgement, they are often able to then find the wherewithal to clean up their act, address legal issues, drug issues and mental health issues.

Well we see how well lowering criteria for home loans has worked out, if you can sign your name and have a job, ouila you qualify for a home loan......with the massive foreclosure defaults that the U.S. has barely survived and the impact to global financial markets.

So qualifying criteria are now "restrictions?"

So, now we're trying to lower criteria by having no criteria at all by offering tax payer subsidized housing to drug using fugitives?

Why is judgment such a bad thing? Countless times each day judgements are being made. As much ranting against judgement is made it's the basis for an orderly society rather than chaos. Why should character and behavior be ignored? Again, personal accountability for one's behavior is ignored?

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 01:22
I get it, there are homeless in the national parks... there will always be homeless somewhere, we can sit around and talk about it and discuss solutions, but it is a 2000+ year problem that has little answers.

There are answers in the U.S. People ignore these at their own and societies' peril.

Three rules for staying out of poverty

1) Don't have kids out of wedlock. Wait to get married until after 21. Data clearly demonstrates single parent children are at a higher risk of being impoverished as well as having a higher risk of criminal behavior.

2) Finish at least High School. Data clearly correlates higher education with higher income.

3) Maintain a job.

If you do all those three things, your chance of falling into poverty is just 2 percent.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2012-01-27/story/three-rules-staying-out-poverty

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18651


Policies with strings attached have had considerable success, says Brookings. One example is the 1996 welfare reform law, which required most adult recipients to get jobs, and dramatically increased employment and lowered overall child poverty. - See more at: http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18651#sthash.zzWMRL82.dpuf

Rex Clifton
11-11-2016, 09:13
Since when can a homeless guy afford Jamison? Ripple would be more like it.

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Wise Old Owl
11-11-2016, 09:40
Dogwood - The homeless has little to do with your taxes. Even if they are in a federal or state park, or under a freeway. I don't believe homeless is subsidized other than EBT. Here in PA most of the homeless are helped by corporations, charity, and churches, and some state govt. And I don't want to get kicked off of here over this thread. (not worth it) Please understand I am not arguing with you.... lets just move on...

slammer
11-11-2016, 10:50
Drug use is the fuel for so many problems we see. I know people today have a cavalier attitude about it, especially since weed is considered a recreational drug now but the truth is that it robs you of things. It happens slowly so you don't see it. I realize some reading this are regular users, I can tell you without exception, you're making a mistake. I realize that's "my opinion" but sometimes people need to consider an opinion other than their own. If I'm wrong, so what. It's not like using it makes you more healthy.

I see videos on the trail and they are ripping it down around the camp fire. As I sit in this dull grey office dreaming of being in the woods I wonder to myself, why do you need weed to make you feel good or relaxed when you are on the trail? You are in paradise! How could dulling your senses be a good thing when you are somewhere amazing? Trade places with me! I'll take your campfire any day.

greensleep
11-11-2016, 10:53
I get it, there are homeless in the national parks... there will always be homeless somewhere, we can sit around and talk about it and discuss solutions, but it is a 2000+ year problem that has little answers.

There are answers in the U.S. People ignore these at their own and societies' peril.

Three rules for staying out of poverty

1) Don't have kids out of wedlock. Wait to get married until after 21. Data clearly demonstrates single parent children are at a higher risk of being impoverished as well as having a higher risk of criminal behavior.

2) Finish at least High School. Data clearly correlates higher education with higher income.

3) Maintain a job.

If you do all those three things, your chance of falling into poverty is just 2 percent.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2012-01-27/story/three-rules-staying-out-poverty

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18651


Policies with strings attached have had considerable success, says Brookings. One example is the 1996 welfare reform law, which required most adult recipients to get jobs, and dramatically increased employment and lowered overall child poverty. - See more at: http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18651#sthash.zzWMRL82.dpuf

I'd like to modify your rule #1 Do not have children unless adopting, regardless of marital status. I know, I know; biological imperative, "clock ticking" on egg viability, achieving immortalilty thru continuance of one"s DNA, wanting to raise a "better" human, perhaps an adherence to some religious principle, etc.. All these reflect the growing and pervasive attitude of "Gonna git mine" and then worry about everything else. I'd think that overpopulation as an explanation of most of our concerns for the quality of human life would be apparent to anyone. For whatever reasons (political, financial, etc.) our technology is not keeping up with our growth as a species. We're using up resources and causing pollution of our immediate and global environments faster than we discover and utilize "fixes". I remember times in which we could travel relatively short distances to be in a pristine environment. When we could enjoy wilderness without encountering human impact other than our own. When a quiet, solitary experience in the woods was easy to get. The amount of us on the AT at any given time illustrates the "new" reality. As human population continues to grow exponentially, "Big Brother" will be governing and regulating our behavior even more. We already feel the effects of having our safety and freedoms legislated. Poverty is a complex issue with many confounding factors, but evident is its growth proportionate to the population.

greensleep
11-11-2016, 11:02
I get it, there are homeless in the national parks... there will always be homeless somewhere, we can sit around and talk about it and discuss solutions, but it is a 2000+ year problem that has little answers.

There are answers in the U.S. People ignore these at their own and societies' peril.

Three rules for staying out of poverty

1) Don't have kids out of wedlock. Wait to get married until after 21. Data clearly demonstrates single parent children are at a higher risk of being impoverished as well as having a higher risk of criminal behavior.

2) Finish at least High School. Data clearly correlates higher education with higher income.

3) Maintain a job.

If you do all those three things, your chance of falling into poverty is just 2 percent.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2012-01-27/story/three-rules-staying-out-poverty

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18651


Policies with strings attached have had considerable success, says Brookings. One example is the 1996 welfare reform law, which required most adult recipients to get jobs, and dramatically increased employment and lowered overall child poverty. - See more at: http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18651#sthash.zzWMRL82.dpuf



I'd like to modify your rule #1 Do not have children unless adopting, regardless of marital status. I know, I know; biological imperative, "clock ticking" on egg viability, achieving immortalilty thru continuance of one"s DNA, wanting to raise a "better" human, perhaps an adherence to some religious principle, etc.. All these reflect the growing and pervasive attitude of "Gonna git mine" and then worry about everything else. I'd think that overpopulation as an explanation of most of our concerns for the quality of human life would be apparent to anyone. For whatever reasons (political, financial, etc.) our technology is not keeping up with our growth as a species. We're using up resources and causing pollution of our immediate and global environments faster than we discover and utilize "fixes". I remember times in which we could travel relatively short distances to be in a pristine environment. When we could enjoy wilderness without encountering human impact other than our own. When a quiet, solitary experience in the woods was easy to get. The amount of us on the AT at any given time illustrates the "new" reality. As human population continues to grow exponentially, "Big Brother" will be governing and regulating our behavior even more. We already feel the effects of having our safety and freedoms legislated. Poverty is a complex issue with many confounding factors, but evident is its growth proportionate to the population.

I tried to edit this post, but was unable, only the last portion was deleted. So I aplologize for the rant above; it's moot anyway. It's only half of what I said and it's due to too much coffee I fear.

Hosh
11-11-2016, 11:36
Denver has a private program called Step 13 that has an extremely high success rate. They basically teach people to build their own self esteem, learn skills, and take responsibility. They do a fund raiser every Christmas hosted by a local radio station. The founder has passed, himself a former addict with out any formal education. He would only tolerate 100% conformance, no skipped meetings, missing work assignments, etc. He talked about how addicts learn to play the game with social workers to avoid taking personal responsibility blaming their circumstances on their parents or society in general. The program had an 85% success rate of graduates finding work, establishing a stable home life and keeping clean from drugs or alcohol. Step 13 refuses to take any state or federal money because of the strings attached.

http://www.step13.org/ they work off of private donations.

Bronk
11-11-2016, 11:57
Homelessness is not a money issue except in rare and temporary circumstances. The vast majority of people are homeless because they have drug and alcohol problems or mental health problems. Think about it...if you lost your job and got evicted from your house, don't you have somebody you could call and ask for a couch to crash on until you could get your life squared away? These people have burned every bridge they have, screwed over every friend and family member. That is why they are homeless. In the case of those with drug or alcohol problems they are choosing to be homeless because their drug is more important to them.

Uriah
11-11-2016, 13:34
Three rules for staying out of poverty

1) Don't have kids out of wedlock. Wait to get married until after 21. Data clearly demonstrates single parent children are at a higher risk of being impoverished as well as having a higher risk of criminal behavior.

2) Finish at least High School. Data clearly correlates higher education with higher income.

3) Maintain a job.

If you do all those three things, your chance of falling into poverty is just 2 percent.

And to these Dogwood I would add:
1. Choose the right parents
2. Choose the right place of birth
3. Choose the right time-frame of your life

There is a lot of luck involved in life, much of which lay beyond our control. I know when I travel through areas of the US where poverty reigns I can see how escaping it is nearly impossible. Poverty is relative of course (travel through Africa and it gives new meaning to the term), but no matter its degree or where it is found, one commonality rings true: it is difficult to claw out from. The tools and the opportunity must first be in place.

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 13:35
Dogwood - The homeless has little to do with your taxes. Even if they are in a federal or state park, or under a freeway. I don't believe homeless is subsidized other than EBT. Here in PA most of the homeless are helped by corporations, charity, and churches, and some state govt...

???Really?

'The effects of homelessness on society can be quite costly, not only in terms of tax dollars spent but on the strain it puts on social agencies, individuals and families. Though families and some individuals may find themselves in homeless shelters for relatively short periods of time due to an economic or personal crisis, it is the long-term, chronic homeless population that runs up significant costs. These include hospitalization and emergency room visits, police intervention and incarceration, and use of mental health, poverty and homeless programs.'

http://peopleof.oureverydaylife.com/effects-homelessness-society-8838.html

While there are wholly privately funded homeless shelters federal and state tax dollars are certainly used to fund in part or entirely homeless shelters and services. *Traditionally, emergency homeless shelters have relied primarily on federal and state funding, according to the Department of Social Services (DSS).

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2005/rpt/2005-r-0333.htm

Some federal sources of funding for homeless shelters include McKinney-Vento Homeless Assistance Grants, funds from the Homeless Prevention and Rapid Re-Housing Program and a range of HUD grants.

These informational sources are not anti homeless community. All these sources are simply quantifying the extent of tax burden, economic and social burden from homelessness through observational documented evidence not anecdotal opinion.


Don't deceive yourself. Drug use, criminality, poverty, and lack of personal responsibility for any segment of society, including the homeless, has far reaching impacts to EVERYONE... and the natural environment, like National Forests.

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 13:45
These informational sources are not anti homeless community. All these sources are simply quantifying the extent of tax burden, economic and social burden from homelessness through observational documented evidence not anecdotal opinion(SENTIMENT).


Denver has a private program called Step 13 that has an extremely high success rate. They basically teach people to build their own self esteem, learn skills, and take responsibility. They do a fund raiser every Christmas hosted by a local radio station. The founder has passed, himself a former addict with out any formal education. He would only tolerate 100% conformance, no skipped meetings, missing work assignments, etc. He talked about how addicts learn to play the game with social workers to avoid taking personal responsibility blaming their circumstances on their parents or society in general. The program had an 85% success rate of graduates finding work, establishing a stable home life and keeping clean from drugs or alcohol. Step 13 refuses to take any state or federal money because of the strings attached.

http://www.step13.org/ they work off of private donations.


This sounds great. At least as written, I like the goals and structure. Getting 85% of the men in the program back to long? term employment is a worthy goal for much of the homeless community. I'd like to know a little more details about Step13 though behind the public window in actual practice.

If homelessness providers of goods and services want public tax dollars their should be strings attached!

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 13:48
And to these Dogwood I would add:
1. Choose the right parents
2. Choose the right place of birth
3. Choose the right time-frame of your life

There is a lot of luck involved in life, much of which lay beyond our control. I know when I travel through areas of the US where poverty reigns I can see how escaping it is nearly impossible. Poverty is relative of course (travel through Africa and it gives new meaning to the term), but no matter its degree or where it is found, one commonality rings true: it is difficult to claw out from. The tools and the opportunity must first be in place.

We can barely get a handle on understanding and dealing with homelessness in the U.S. One step at time. Let's focus on the U.S.'s homelessness primarily without making homelessness even more complex by looking at it globally.

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 13:59
And to these Dogwood I would add:
1. Choose the right parents
2. Choose the right place of birth
3. Choose the right time-frame of your life

There is a lot of luck involved in life, much of which lay beyond our control. I know when I travel through areas of the US where poverty reigns I can see how escaping it is nearly impossible. Poverty is relative of course (travel through Africa and it gives new meaning to the term), but no matter its degree or where it is found, one commonality rings true: it is difficult to claw out from. The tools and the opportunity must first be in place.

This is another attempt at ignoring personal responsibility by implying life - quality of life - is more about luck than making better decisions. Making better decisions affects quality of life more than luck!

We can't choose our parents but people can choose under what circumstances they DECIDE to become or risk being a parent.

Uriah
11-11-2016, 14:32
This is another attempt at ignoring personal responsibility by implying life - quality of life - is more about luck than making better decisions. Making better decisions affects quality of life more than luck! We can't choose our parents but people can choose under what circumstances they DECIDE to become or risk being a parent.

If given the tools and the opportunities. Not everyone has the capacity for intellect or intelligent choice, let alone common sense or the capacity to reason. Not everyone is given the chance to go to college, financially or intellectually. They do with what they've been bestowed. Sure, we can say they make bad choices, but the capacity to make good choices is limited. Especially when in youth or when drugs have taken hold. Bad choices? Yes. But good choices and personal responsibility is limited for many of these types. It's easy for an intelligent man like you to see it your way, but you have to see it from their vantage to truly understand the matter.

theinfamousj
11-11-2016, 15:42
I get it, there are homeless in the national parks... there will always be homeless somewhere, we can sit around and talk about it and discuss solutions, but it is a 2000+ year problem that has little answers.

There are answers in the U.S. People ignore these at their own and societies' peril.

Three rules for staying out of poverty

1) Don't have kids out of wedlock. Wait to get married until after 21. Data clearly demonstrates single parent children are at a higher risk of being impoverished as well as having a higher risk of criminal behavior.

2) Finish at least High School. Data clearly correlates higher education with higher income.

3) Maintain a job.



My perspective as a young woman:

What happens if you are raped-without-protection and the Pro-Lifers force you to have the baby? You have just lost #1 simply for being the victim of a crime. Hardly seems fair to be punished for someone else's misdeeds.

And because you are now a Mom at the tender age of 15 and need to recover from the major medical undertaking of building and expelling a new life, you miss school. Then the child gets sick (because everyone with kids knows that is pretty much how the first two years of life go: sick with brief periods of health) and you miss more school. So much school that you are behind even when you do show up. So now you fail at point number 2 only because someone else assaulted your body with his body. Again, hardly seems fair.

And hell, you cannot keep a job, either, because if you don't have the time to attend school thanks to your child, you also don't have the time to attend work. So you fail at point number three all because someone else refused to acknowledge your refusal to have sex. Hardly seems fair.

That society is structured so that a woman of childbearing years who has found herself victim of a crime had to fail all the rules suggests to me that maybe we need to restructure society. I think that if you are forcibly raped and get pregnant as a result and decide to keep and love the child, society ought to help you succeed rather than ticking off the "rules" you have broken.

Which is all to say, that this discussion is very male-perspectived. 50% of humanity isn't male, though.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

MuddyWaters
11-11-2016, 16:24
And to these Dogwood I would add:
1. Choose the right parents
2. Choose the right place of birth
3. Choose the right time-frame of your life

There is a lot of luck involved in life, much of which lay beyond our control. I know when I travel through areas of the US where poverty reigns I can see how escaping it is nearly impossible. Poverty is relative of course (travel through Africa and it gives new meaning to the term), but no matter its degree or where it is found, one commonality rings true: it is difficult to claw out from. The tools and the opportunity must first be in place.


Having the right values, and education, and at least average intelligence is #1.
Everything else can be overcome.

I have a friend that as a 18 yr old kid, escaped from Vietnam to Thailand under a pile of dead fish on a fishing boat when Vietnam fell. Made his way to US, did not speak english or know a single person. Got help from Catholic church, worked at convenience stores while putting himself thru college , was held up at gunpoint twice, got out got a good job as a engineer. Eventually brought his whole family over here from Vietnam. Is married, has good job, wife does too. Earns in top 3% of wage earners in US.

anyone that complains they cant succeed because of X, Y, Z is kidding themselves.
People do everyday in spite of extreme difficulties.
You have to want to , and be willing to do what it takes.

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 17:05
If given the tools and the opportunities. Not everyone has the capacity for intellect or intelligent choice, let alone common sense or the capacity to reason. Not everyone is given the chance to go to college, financially or intellectually. They do with what they've been bestowed. Sure, we can say they make bad choices, but the capacity to make good choices is limited. Especially when in youth or when drugs have taken hold. Bad choices? Yes. But good choices and personal responsibility is limited for many of these types. It's easy for an intelligent man like you to see it your way, but you have to see it from their vantage to truly understand the matter.

Possibly no where else in the world is the population offered the tools, choices, and opportunities to financially and socially succeed than in the United States. People strapping their arses to boards floating across ocean and risking open seas in row boats, hiking hundreds of miles across open desert and wading rivers and hopping northbound border crossing freight trains risking rape, robbery, incarceration, and death, those locking themselves into semi sized storage containers for weeks at time, and those hiding inside all manner of border crossing vehicles certainly think so!

Impoverished minorities living in crime ridden inner cities at a YOUNG age with significant disadvantages make the intelligent HARD choice to not resort to the easy crime dollar but pull themselves up through sports, music, education, and hard work etc rather than resorting to crime. How many impoverished hard working Latinos, Asians, and Indians come to this country even without knowing English, having a roof over their head, a Drivers's License, car, etc bust their arses and live within or below their means and pull themselves up because they take advantage of the opportunities to EARNING financial success in the U.S.? What sets these people apart is the ability to see the opportunities, to not be limited by a victimhood mindset, and WORK!

As Muddy Waters said "anyone that complains they cant succeed because of X, Y, Z is kidding themselves.
People do everyday in spite of extreme difficulties.
You have to want to , and be willing to do what it takes."

Hosh
11-11-2016, 17:55
Much of the social and political under currents in today's society flow from a perspective of the "oppressed" and the "oppressor". People learn at an early age that it's ok to consider yourself a victim, beaten down by circumstances or the Man.

With all the protest on the election results and I want to rent a helicopter and drop pacifiers on their heads.

Can you imagine this generation being needed to fight Nazi tyranny. They all would sit around bitchin about how their uniforms fit and how awful the coffee tasted.

rocketsocks
11-11-2016, 18:56
Much of the social and political under currents in today's society flow from a perspective of the "oppressed" and the "oppressor". People learn at an early age that it's ok to consider yourself a victim, beaten down by circumstances or the Man.

With all the protest on the election results and I want to rent a helicopter and drop pacifiers on their heads.

Can you imagine this generation being needed to fight Nazi tyranny. They all would sit around bitchin about how their uniforms fit and how awful the coffee tasted....a perfect example of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.

Wise Old Owl
11-11-2016, 20:25
Dogwood - seriously someone who rejects society lives in the woods and catching dinner with a rod and a reel to feed his family impacts your life-really? Or that person who lives down on the rail road tracks in east Philadelphia?

Dogwood get a grip, you may be listening to talk radio stations - but you totally missed the point.

36928

Look again I am not arguing with you period,,, PM me if you want to further this "interesting" conversation.

Wise Old Owl
11-11-2016, 20:57
If given the tools and the opportunities. Not everyone has the capacity for intellect or intelligent choice, let alone common sense or the capacity to reason. Not everyone is given the chance to go to college, financially or intellectually. They do with what they've been bestowed. Sure, we can say they make bad choices, but the capacity to make good choices is limited. Especially when in youth or when drugs have taken hold. Bad choices? Yes. But good choices and personal responsibility is limited for many of these types. It's easy for an intelligent man like you to see it your way, but you have to see it from their vantage to truly understand the matter.


In some states, this is the failure of the biggest inner city union here in the USA. As an Australian that got his American Citizenship recently. There are good teachers and a few bad ones... I grew up in a public education setting, upon arrival. We cannot continue to just blame teachers, we should also hold parents accountable. The failure in the inner cities is more about dad or mom did not come home, due to drugs, alcohol or lack of parenting - it's a civilization thing that goes back thru the ages. Being homeless is something much more than coping or a bad decision. To say we are not going to help others is a really bad decision... According to Dian Fossey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Fossey)Gorilla's and Primates share food with with others, are we not better than them? Jane Goodall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Goodall) went on to prove they use simple tools to gather food. Is there a problem with sharing a tool to help someone? OK they are in a bad spot on a great piece of land... guess what it's a mess that can be cleaned up. As human beings we help each other in need, and has been many times folks... it's an unfortunate issue that will not go away.


Lets take the high road and unless you have a solution to the issue ...move on.

Dogwood
11-11-2016, 21:26
"...someone who rejects society lives in the woods and catching dinner with a rod and a reel to feed his family impacts your life-really?"

This is an illusion. This definitely does not describe the state of the vast majority of the U.S. homeless community.

As said earlier my comments are based on evidence in data, not opinion or sentiment, and personal observations with close ties to and associating with the homeless community in more than 30 U.S. states and being previously homeless for short periods.

"Or that person who lives down on the rail road tracks in east Philadelphia?"

The person who lives on the railroad tracks certainly does NOT live his or her life totally on the railroad tracks. As clearly documented through multiple agencies and studies there are higher correlations with drug use/dependency, criminality, lack of environmental stewardship, lack of personal accountability and sustainability, and obvious poor decision making within the homeless community. At some point it is clear long term impoverished homelessness burden's society in profound significant ways.

Ever come across hobo or homeless camps along rail lines? I have. MANY MANY. They are some of the most environmentally abused places with a high degree of that abuse occurring from homeless correlated behavior with obvious indications of legal and illicit drug use. To get back to the topic, are these the people in general that who you want to let loose unsupervised in National Forest, National/State/County/Town Parks, cemeteries, playgrounds, and Wilderness Areas?

Wise Old Owl
11-11-2016, 21:35
Did you not read the part of pfffft: "LET IT GO?"

chucksorangedream
11-13-2016, 10:42
Dogwood, I have enjoyed reading your comments and I agree with you.


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MRupert420
12-19-2016, 01:40
I immediately thought the same thing but I wasn't going to be the one to say it. I would go further to say not only could having children be considered selfish, but with overpopulation choking out the natural world more and more, reproducing could be considered even criminal.
I take comfort in your words, kind sir. This is how I've been trying to teach my mind to think. Had a friend (in our 20's) say he believes man is here to drain earth of it's resources and then goto another planet. I was stunned to actually hear someone say that even though that is how society lives their lives.

egilbe
12-19-2016, 13:58
I take comfort in your words, kind sir. This is how I've been trying to teach my mind to think. Had a friend (in our 20's) say he believes man is here to drain earth of it's resources and then goto another planet. I was stunned to actually hear someone say that even though that is how society lives their lives.

There have been more than a few science fiction stories based on that premise. Once the earth warms enough, we will have mega reptiles again. T-Rex and 120ft anacondas like in the past.