Beef jerky, tuna in foil packets, salami – in bear country, sleeping with Opsak?

[wurble]

I’m working on planning food for a solo northbound thruhike of the Long Trail in Vermont, late August until the end of September. Leaving in a few days. The southern half of the Long Trail coincides with the AT in Vermont, hence posting here.

As part of my food strategy, which in general is keeping food low-odor and sleeping with my food inside a Loksak Opsak, is it acceptable to have items like beef jerky, tuna in foil packets, salami, cheese, etc? In other words, are they low-odor enough?

So far I’ve been avoiding those items (except the cheese, which I will have a lot of). If I don’t take them, my protein will come from protein powder, cheese, nuts, whole grains, and freeze-dried beef/chicken in Mountain House meals.

Have you done this exact thing, on the AT in Vermont? (That's the part I'm most concerned about, since it has much heavier foot traffic.) Under what circumstances would you consider it to be safe?

Some context/background info:

Vermont has one of the densest black bear populations in the country, approximately 1 bear every 3 square miles (about 6000 bears in the state). There are no brown bears or grizzlies. Human traffic is relatively high on the southern portion of the Long Trail, which coincides with the AT, and quite low on the northern portion. Hunting is legal. Bear attacks remain rare. Only one person, a hunter whose bullet essentially missed, has ever been killed by a bear in Vermont. However, bears have recently (within the last year) become a problem in the high traffic area near Camel’s Hump, which now has bear boxes and is on my route. As far as seasonal bear activity, according to VT Fish & Wildlife, “By late August, bears seek foods with the highest nutritional value. In an effort to store as much energy as possible, they will eat up to 24 hours a day.”

I will be following Andrew Skurka’s advice for food protection in bear country. Specifically, I’m planning to:

– eat dinner on the trail, then hike another 30-60 minutes and set up camp, eat a small snack and go to bed
– camp away from established tent sites and shelters
– carry low-odor items and foods
– carry my food in Loksak Opsak odorproof bags, which sit inside a thinner BaseCamp odor barrier bag in my backpack

(For those who know the full list, I’m not sure if I’ll be able to consistently burn my trash, start early or finish late, or plan my route to avoid bear food sources.)

I’m planning to sleep with my food. No bear hang (except if I choose to stay in a shelter), no bear canister. The food will be inside a Loksak Opsak bag, which is inside the thinner BaseCamp odor barrier bag.

[The Kisco Kid]

I've hiked the LT end-to-end. You're overthinking the bear thing. Vermont is not grizzly country. It is not the Shenandoah's. It is not the Smokies.

Hang your food at night (PCT method recommended) and you'll be fine.

[SkeeterPee]

I hang my food when there is not a bear box. I also use opsak which helps greatly with odor, but I would not assume they are perfect. in fact my brother got a small slit somehow on the last trip so I am sure that probably allowed odor out. I also bag my trash and hang it as it can have a lot of odor. As for the various foods, I think once you open them, they all have a lot odor. I can open beef jerky while on a trip and my wife notices the smell thoughout the car.

[wurble]

Marcovee, I'm specifically trying to avoid hanging a bear bag.

[HooKooDooKu]

While you can't read the referenced article without a subscription, the implications from this web page (https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/75773/) is that there is no such thing as bags that can contain odors that will prevent a bear from finding it.

[Odd Man Out]

You ask "Under what circumstances would you consider it to be safe?" or "is it acceptible...". This is like asking "How long is a piece of string?" If you define "safe" as no risk, then you are never safe as there is always risk. Do you hike with a helmet to protect yourself from falling trees and asteroids? Why do we not consider this even though it could happen? To know if the risk is acceptable, we must know both what the level of risk is AND what level of risk you are comfortable with (neither of which we really know). Or we could consider the relative risks of your plan compared to that of other options. Every option has advantages and disadvantages but we tend to focus on the risks (disadvantages) rather than do an adequate cost-benefit analysis of each option. We must also identify which problem you are trying to avoid. Death by bear? Injury by bear? Bear stealing your food? Bear damaging your gear? The cost-benefit equation is different for each problem. What's your priority? The sleep with food/hang your food debate is old and contentious and I am not going to get into that analysis again. I would say that from what you wrote, it seems that you have done your homework and find the risk associated with your plan acceptable. I would also say that if you choose to sleep with your food, you are doing all the right things to minimize your risk. I have not backpacked in VT, although last week I did walk down Main Street in Hanover NH which is on the AT just a mile from VT (there were no bears). But I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of VT AT/LT hikers either 1)sleep with their food, 2) hang their food badly, 3) hang their food correctly. I would also guess that all of these groups include many cheese eaters and that none of these groups are being killed by bears in large numbers. I can state with great certainty that nobody can say if you will or will not be safe. (I can not predict the future. I can see the past quite clearly and the present when the weather is clear).

BTW, I too use a BaseCamp odor barrier bag and feel that is a wise choice for bother sleepers and hangers. But given the bears' olfactory ability, I never assume anything is odor PROOF (regardless of marketing claims).

[wurble]

OK, I'm going to try to clarify:

A determined bear can get the food in any bear hang. In a PCT hang, they can send a bear cub out on the branch to break it (if it's small enough) or go out on the branch themselves and chew through the rope (if the branch is big enough). In a two-tree hang, they can chew through the rope where it's attached to the tree trunk. In both cases, they can climb a tree and then launch themselves at the bear bag from above, which will break the rope anyhow.

Given the many failure modes of a bear hang, it seems a key point is making the bear less interested in your food to begin with. You can't eliminate smells (especially since your hands will contaminate the outside of an Opsak) but you can reduce them. That's my goal here. The smell of a human is also a deterrent up to a point - the bear knows you're in your tent guarding your food, and hopefully it will decide it's not interested enough in your food to fight you for it. Camping away from the trail and away from water and bear food sources helps too, because a bear is less likely to have a habit of checking your specific campsite for food.

There have been numerous reports of bears being extremely interested in meat products, for example carrying away packs from shelters and eating just the can of tuna or pack of jerky, leaving the rest untouched. Having these foods in a tent a night has similarly provoked bear attacks. But as far as I can tell, none of those incidents involved the use of an odorproof bag of any kind. Eliminating meat products entirely would be the safest route, but I'd like to have more data on meat products in odorproof bags in bear country.

Finally, I have heard from many sources (including on this forum) that lots of AT thruhikers start out doing bear hangs every night, then decide it's not necessary (or too much hassle) and just sleep with their food, with or without odorproof bags, instead. How well does that strategy work in Vermont, which has lots of bears? Any incidents to report?

[RockDoc]

I like Andrew's suggestions.

The reality in many areas is that you can't do a good PCT style hang. I just finished Section J of PCT in 6 days, and we were only able to PCT hang one night. We used a tree trunk stuck at an angle. The tree limbs would not work for hangs. We carried a lot of meat products including tuna packet trash, bacon, jerky, and landjaeger sausage...

I noted that the PCT thru hikers who cruised in late made no efforts to do hangs.

I take bear bagging and hanging more seriously in places with known bear problems, or heavily used camp sites.

[Secondmouse]

Marcovee, I'm specifically trying to avoid hanging a bear bag.

why? don't kid yourself, bears are thought to have the best sense of smell of any animal on earth. A bear's sense of smell is 7 times better than a blood hound's. if you have food, any food, he'll detect it.

do the safe thing, hang a bear bag down wind of your position and carry whatever you want..

[saltysack]

Waaaaaaay to worried about black bears......do you sleep with a gun under your pillow at home? Don't sweat the bears...I've always slept with my food and never had a problem...actually just bought the odor barrier bags off amazon for my Co hike...ill make an attempt to hang out there but if I'm getting in to camp late it'll be my pillow....


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[Slo-go'en]

First off, camping away from designated sites is either a) not practical (in the case of the National Forest section) or b) not legal (which is the case for the rest of the LT).

Many of the shelters (at least along the AT section) have bear boxes now. Use them.

Finally, take prudent precautions but you don't have to go to extremes. Bear encounters in Vermont are very rare.

[swisscross]

Waaaaaaay to worried about black bears......do you sleep with a gun under your pillow at home?


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I sleep with a gun under my pillow at home.
I also CC.
But I have never carried on the/any trail and I sleep with my food.
I consider black bears like big racoons. Actually I am more afraid of racoons. Nasty little buggers they are.

[HooKooDooKu]

I've always slept with my food and never had a problem...
Seems reasonable when hiking in areas with little bear activity or camping at infrequently used camp sites.

Seems foolish (and in some locations ILLEGAL) when camping at designated site that bears are familiar with and frequent (such as in GSMNP).

[saltysack]

Seems reasonable when hiking in areas with little bear activity or camping at infrequently used camp sites.

Seems foolish (and in some locations ILLEGAL) when camping at designated site that bears are familiar with and frequent (such as in GSMNP).

Yea good point...I try to avoid crowds and frequently used spots.....defeats the purpose of getting outside to me anyway. I'm obviously not saying to break any laws....another disclaimer is that I mainly hike with a dog....black bears down south are hunted with dogs so they tend to avoid them.


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[saltysack]

I sleep with a gun under my pillow at home.
I also CC.
But I have never carried on the/any trail and I sleep with my food.
I consider black bears like big racoons. Actually I am more afraid of racoons. Nasty little buggers they are.

I keep a Glock close by but have never taken on any trail either..


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[MuddyWaters]

Paraphrasing:

I'm worried about bears
So I'm gonna sleep with my food
But that worries me
What do I do?

[jj dont play]

I never saw anyone hang food on the LT section. It was sort of the line when no one worried about bears anymore.Most just hung in the shelter on critter hang or slept with it. In fact people not even staying in the shelter hung their food in the shelter. Never heard of any problems and never heard of any other hikers seeing a bear.

I slept with food towards the end. I was typically dog tire and if I didn't see the perfect tree for the PCT hang I just threw the food back in my pack, put my sweaty clothes on the pack and put it by my feet in tent.

Furthest North I saw a bear was Mass.


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[Slo-go'en]

In all the time I've spent on the LT, I've only seen a bear once and just because I caught some motion out the corner of my eye as it was racing down the hill away from me.

Lets see, on that E2E hike I saw:
the ass end of that one bear
1 owl
2 deer
2 beavers
and 1200 chipmunks.

[Odd Man Out]

On North Manitou Island before you can get you backcountry permit you have to listen to the park ranger's micro bear (i.e. chipmunk) lecture. A PCT hang for chipmunks can be a lot lower.

[Wise Old Owl]

Paraphrasing:

I'm worried about bears
So I'm gonna sleep with my food
But that worries me
What do I do?


Uh - snap that was awesome.... beat me to-it!

[DuneElliot]

On North Manitou Island before you can get you backcountry permit you have to listen to the park ranger's micro bear (i.e. chipmunk) lecture. A PCT hang for chipmunks can be a lot lower.

The places I backpack are not known for any bear issues although I do carry bear spray. I worry way more about the little critters getting to my food...a dog is good for that.

[Deacon]

I never saw anyone hang food on the LT section. It was sort of the line when no one worried about bears anymore.Most just hung in the shelter on critter hang or slept with it. In fact people not even staying in the shelter hung their food in the shelter. Never heard of any problems and never heard of any other hikers seeing a bear.

I slept with food towards the end. I was typically dog tire and if I didn't see the perfect tree for the PCT hang I just threw the food back in my pack, put my sweaty clothes on the pack and put it by my feet in tent.

Furthest North I saw a bear was Mass.


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Exactly. I've thru hiked the LT once, hiked the lower third of the LT three times, hiked 1700 miles of the AT, and have hung my food a grand total of two times, mainly to calm the fears of fellow hikers. Usually there is no acceptable branch from which to hang. I

In the southern states, the lowest branches are 100 ft off the ground (some hyperbole here) while in Vermont, the trees are too often too small.

I have always slept with my food without issue. As others have said, the only part of a bear I've seen is its fleeting rear end.

[greenpete]

Just wanted to add my "two cents," since I was lucky enough to not only see a bear, but have one in my campsite. It was a year ago at Brown's Gap, Shenandoah Nat'l Park. Established campsite on the edge of the trail, only a half-mile from Skyline Drive. A previous hiker had erected a designer-quality, high beam for bear bag hanging, so it was probably a clue there were bears close by. Well, the bear woke me up about 4 a.m., snorting outside my tent (sounded like a large hog). I hollered out, and he crashed through the brush - sounded like a freight train. My bear bag was still hanging, undisturbed, and I'm sure he could smell my food.

The next morning, I was only 100 yards from my site when I heard the same crashing sound, glanced over, and saw him disappearing over the hill.

Black bears are very, very harmless, and unless you provoke them, or threaten a mother's cubs, you'll be safe. And from my above experience, if you hang your food bag high, your food will be safe. The worst that can happen is maybe an early-morning wakeup call.

[wurble]

Exactly. I've thru hiked the LT once, hiked the lower third of the LT three times, hiked 1700 miles of the AT, and have hung my food a grand total of two times, mainly to calm the fears of fellow hikers. Usually there is no acceptable branch from which to hang. I

In the southern states, the lowest branches are 100 ft off the ground (some hyperbole here) while in Vermont, the trees are too often too small.

I have always slept with my food without issue. As others have said, the only part of a bear I've seen is its fleeting rear end.


I never saw anyone hang food on the LT section. It was sort of the line when no one worried about bears anymore.Most just hung in the shelter on critter hang or slept with it. In fact people not even staying in the shelter hung their food in the shelter. Never heard of any problems and never heard of any other hikers seeing a bear.

I slept with food towards the end. I was typically dog tire and if I didn't see the perfect tree for the PCT hang I just threw the food back in my pack, put my sweaty clothes on the pack and put it by my feet in tent.

Deacon and JJ, this is more in line with what I've heard from many long-distance hikers. Can you give a few more details about your food practices? For instance, were you using odorproof/odor resistant bags of any kind, did you carry meat products and how were they packaged, did you ever cook or eat in/near your tent, and how close to the trail/shelter did you camp?

[jj dont play]

Deacon and JJ, this is more in line with what I've heard from many long-distance hikers. Can you give a few more details about your food practices? For instance, were you using odorproof/odor resistant bags of any kind, did you carry meat products and how were they packaged, did you ever cook or eat in/near your tent, and how close to the trail/shelter did you camp?

No odor proof bag, used the Z-Packs Bear bag. I carried, meat, cheese, sweets, you name it. Usually repackaged in freezer ziplocs. Only time I ate in my tent was breakfast a few times when I hit Maine. I do feel that this is a bad practice. Have ate in sight of my tent majority of the time. Distance to trail/ shelter varied on what was available. Mostly slept in Shelters for the LT Section.
Beginning of trail I followed almost all the food odor rules concerning bears but after seeing 21 bears and seeing they wanted nothing to do with me even when I had food in my hands/ in the open. I was not worried about them as much.



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[pyroman53]

My friend, in my opinion, there is little you can do to affect if you will encounter a bear in your campsite while on the at short of camping in completely virgin sites, which flies in the face of LNT. Campsites have been used and abused, cooked in, food splattered, and generally made aromatic by hundreds of hikers before you. If bears usually come foraging in a campsite you're occupying, nothing you do will prevent it. Sure, you can exacerbate the situation but if mr bear wants to come by, he will. Whether you hang your food or sleep with it is your choice and folks on WB will argue which is better to no general concensus. Do what feels right, wear some earplugs and get some sleep. Or not. I like to hear the night sounds, especially the sound of chipmunks imitating bears right next to my tarp. I hang my food far enough away so I won't hear a bear getting it. Helps me sleep better knowing the noise I hear isn't my bear bag being ravaged. So far so good for me.

[saltysack]

The places I backpack are not known for any bear issues although I do carry bear spray. I worry way more about the little critters getting to my food...a dog is good for that.

[emoji106] especially a terrier! Rat killing machine...


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[eabyrd1506]

[emoji106] especially a terrier! Rat killing machine...


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I've a 10 Pound toy rat terrier, what can I take out of my pack to make up for her...

[saltysack]

I've a 10 Pound toy rat terrier, what can I take out of my pack to make up for her...

My shorty jack is around 20lbs......he has no problems doing 20 mpd....no need to carry...he's getting excited watching me pack for our CO trip next month, when the pack comes out he goes nuts!! It's been several months since our last hike @ the FHT...77 miles lil over 3 days.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160825/6c5eea71e5bf9eb27f4a99533d84b7b1.jpg


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[rocketsocks]

I’m working on planning food for a solo northbound thruhike of the Long Trail in Vermont, late August until the end of September. Leaving in a few days. The southern half of the Long Trail coincides with the AT in Vermont, hence posting here.

As part of my food strategy, which in general is keeping food low-odor and sleeping with my food inside a Loksak Opsak, is it acceptable to have items like beef jerky, tuna in foil packets, salami, cheese, etc? In other words, are they low-odor enough?

So far I’ve been avoiding those items (except the cheese, which I will have a lot of). If I don’t take them, my protein will come from protein powder, cheese, nuts, whole grains, and freeze-dried beef/chicken in Mountain House meals.

Have you done this exact thing, on the AT in Vermont? (That's the part I'm most concerned about, since it has much heavier foot traffic.) Under what circumstances would you consider it to be safe?

Some context/background info:

Vermont has one of the densest black bear populations in the country, approximately 1 bear every 3 square miles (about 6000 bears in the state). There are no brown bears or grizzlies. Human traffic is relatively high on the southern portion of the Long Trail, which coincides with the AT, and quite low on the northern portion. Hunting is legal. Bear attacks remain rare. Only one person, a hunter whose bullet essentially missed, has ever been killed by a bear in Vermont. However, bears have recently (within the last year) become a problem in the high traffic area near Camel’s Hump, which now has bear boxes and is on my route. As far as seasonal bear activity, according to VT Fish & Wildlife, “By late August, bears seek foods with the highest nutritional value. In an effort to store as much energy as possible, they will eat up to 24 hours a day.”

I will be following Andrew Skurka’s advice for food protection in bear country. Specifically, I’m planning to:

– eat dinner on the trail, then hike another 30-60 minutes and set up camp, eat a small snack and go to bed
– camp away from established tent sites and shelters
– carry low-odor items and foods
– carry my food in Loksak Opsak odorproof bags, which sit inside a thinner BaseCamp odor barrier bag in my backpack

(For those who know the full list, I’m not sure if I’ll be able to consistently burn my trash, start early or finish late, or plan my route to avoid bear food sources.)

I’m planning to sleep with my food. No bear hang (except if I choose to stay in a shelter), no bear canister. The food will be inside a Loksak Opsak bag, which is inside the thinner BaseCamp odor barrier bag.all high in purines and will cause your big toe to limp down the shoulder on the rim.

[Deacon]

Deacon and JJ, this is more in line with what I've heard from many long-distance hikers. Can you give a few more details about your food practices? For instance, were you using odorproof/odor resistant bags of any kind, did you carry meat products and how were they packaged, did you ever cook or eat in/near your tent, and how close to the trail/shelter did you camp?

I use three "odor proof" bags to organize breakfasts, snacks, and dinners. Not the heavier Lopsacks, but the thin bags that look like oven bags.

I pack all three of these into my main food bag. In the morning I'll take out the snacks for the day and put them in the waist pocket of my pack. The main food bag goes in the pack and doesn't come out until dinner.

If I'm in a shelter or in my tent, the bag lays right next to me.

[bikebum1975]

Marcovee, I'm specifically trying to avoid hanging a bear bag.


Why would you want to avoid it? Don't forget plenty of other critters want your dinner to. I live in Connecticut and hiked the section here a long time ago we hung out good bags nightly it's not hard to do either.

[Gravytrain]

We were about four days into a week and a half of squad and platoon evals. Policy is to hump out your trash, unless we have the supply guys going back and forth between the training site and garrison, at which point we would bag it up at one time, and they would dump it. My platoon sergeant went back to where we had staged our rucks, and found a black bear getting into his ruck. He tried to fight it off, but the bear ran off with his ruck in tow. Lost all his gear that was in the ruck. This was Fort Drum NY, northeast training areas which are the foothills of the Adirondacks.

Use those scent proof bags, but also hang your food and trash. It's not hard, and can be done really quickly, so even my lazy ass will be doing it.

[Gravytrain]

Why would you want to avoid it? Don't forget plenty of other critters want your dinner to. I live in Connecticut and hiked the section here a long time ago we hung out good bags nightly it's not hard to do either.

Raccoons the size of yearling bear cubs all over Fort Drum NY. Pretty sure it is because of the MREs they continually steal. I set up a comm station at the MOUT city with our company driver. He was on watch while I slept and he woke me up because a bear was getting into the back of the HUMVEE. We had several cases of MREs and half a dozen 5 gallon water cans for resupplying the guys as needed. Turns out, it was four huge raccoons trying to flip a case of MREs out of the back. Another time, we had a Blackhawk slingload in a pallet of MREs. This was just after dark, and we had been at it for sixteen hours, so the commander had us set up a perimeter and get some sleep. About 0200 the guy on radio watch woke us up by screaming there was a bear. It was two huge raccoons trying to drag off a case of MREs.

[Dogwood]

OK, I'm going to try to clarify:

A determined bear can get the food in any bear hang. In a PCT hang, they can send a bear cub out on the branch to break it (if it's small enough) or go out on the branch themselves and chew through the rope (if the branch is big enough). In a two-tree hang, they can chew through the rope where it's attached to the tree trunk. In both cases, they can climb a tree and then launch themselves at the bear bag from above, which will break the rope anyhow.

Given the many failure modes of a bear hang, it seems a key point is making the bear less interested in your food to begin with. You can't eliminate smells (especially since your hands will contaminate the outside of an Opsak) but you can reduce them. That's my goal here. The smell of a human is also a deterrent up to a point - the bear knows you're in your tent guarding your food, and hopefully it will decide it's not interested enough in your food to fight you for it. Camping away from the trail and away from water and bear food sources helps too, because a bear is less likely to have a habit of checking your specific campsite for food.

There have been numerous reports of bears being extremely interested in meat products, for example carrying away packs from shelters and eating just the can of tuna or pack of jerky, leaving the rest untouched. Having these foods in a tent a night has similarly provoked bear attacks. But as far as I can tell, none of those incidents involved the use of an odorproof bag of any kind. Eliminating meat products entirely would be the safest route, but I'd like to have more data on meat products in odorproof bags in bear country.

Finally, I have heard from many sources (including on this forum) that lots of AT thruhikers start out doing bear hangs every night, then decide it's not necessary (or too much hassle) and just sleep with their food, with or without odorproof bags, instead. How well does that strategy work in Vermont, which has lots of bears? Any incidents to report?

I think you have the right idea in that you're making an attempt to manage odors that might attract bears as well as possible other wildlife. From that perspective are you also planning on sleeping with your trash and other scented items: lip balm, toothpaste, etc? You nay not be able to always burn trash as you think.

If I was that concerned, which I'm generally not on the entire length of the Long Trail as the black bears are generally wary and shy, which the Vermont Fish & Game also states that you seem to be ignoring in favor of worst case scenarios, I'd PCT bear bag PROPERLY ALL THESE ITEMS including carried unopened food well downwind of where I sleep while employing Andrew's recs.

The PCT bear bagging system got a bad rap as a result, at least in some part, of poor PCT bear bagging related to inexperience with the system and location where adequate trees were rare. As a result the PCT system was foiled by smart bears in some areas of exceptionally heavy human use. From what I understand Vermont is not an area/state where the BLACK BEARS haver learned to foil a PROPERLY constructed PCT bear bagging system.

I also would not be blindly following the bear protection methods of AT thru-hikers! Lots of issues on the AT between humans and bears! At least part of those issues, MAYBE A LARGE PART, is related to HUMAN AT hiker behavior because they FAIL to adequately protect food from wildlife.

If all that concerned I also would poop and pee downwind of where I sleep, camp anywhere near known bear food generating areas like apple orchards, dense stands of blueberries, under beechnut tress with nuts/fruit in the area, etc.

I also think you're better off considering/researching how to avoid cross contamination of odors onto your gear, yourself, tent, or outside the LokSak OpSak/Base Camp odor proof bags. It's my contention bears will be attracted most to the most juiciest strongest smelling known food odors hence why they will sometimes go for the beef sticks, bloody steaks, sardine, seafood in cans, etc.

I personally am a pesce vegetarian off trail but will be lax on trail by including the rare chicken in a foil packet or chicken or turkey jerky. In known areas of problem human/bear encounters, or especially when in BROWN BEAR areas, I avoid smelly fish in cans and will separate my trash and especially tuna/chicken in foil packets from my food placing this trash in double odor proof bags or double Ziplock burning or disposing in garbage cans at THs at first chance. I don't like burning really smelly food trash though as that in itself especially if not totally burned in a HOT fire can be a bear/wildlife attractant.