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jefals
08-27-2016, 17:16
"Take paper maps. Your phone could break". Yeah, right. Like my phone's really going to break, right? So I was relying totally on Guthook's app. That thing is great, and it took me all the way to the top of the mountain. Took a picture from there, and then the phone died!
It can happen; take a map.

Venchka
08-27-2016, 17:31
Or....
Take map & compass.
Phone with app as backup.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Hikes in Rain
08-27-2016, 17:40
Personally, I like the big dimensions (2' x 3'? correct me if I'm wrong) of a paper/tyvek map, over a phone screen measured in inches. My vision's never been real good, and aging sure hasn't helped!

RockDoc
08-27-2016, 18:07
Ask Search and Rescue.

They spend much of their time rescuing (or recovering bodies) of people who had great digital apps running.... until they didn't.

Analog technology has it's place when it comes to reliability, safety, and saving lives.

bemental
08-27-2016, 18:35
Ask Search and Rescue.

They spend much of their time rescuing (or recovering bodies) of people who had great digital apps running.... until they didn't.

Analog technology has it's place when it comes to reliability, safety, and saving lives.

Stop being dramatic.

Anyone who relies solely on any one piece of technology, whether it's a cell phone app or a paper map for their survival, deserves what they get.

Two is one, one is none.

A map and compass do nothing for you if you don't know how to use them, just as an electronic with all the software in the world will not help if you don't understand the technology.

This is the 'guns kill people' argument.

Each has their advantages, and disadvantages. What it boils down to are the needs of the individual, based on their experience, and the environment they find themselves traveling to.

Traveler
08-27-2016, 18:55
To be a gun argument, wouldn't it have to be stated, "maps don't kill people but people with guns can kill people with maps"?

Just sayin....

jefals
08-27-2016, 18:58
Personally, I like the big dimensions (2' x 3'? correct me if I'm wrong) of a paper/tyvek map, over a phone screen measured in inches. My vision's never been real good, and aging sure hasn't helped!.
But the difference is, the phone app has gps, so it tells you if you're off the trail.

jefals
08-27-2016, 19:07
Ask Search and Rescue.

They spend much of their time rescuing (or recovering bodies) of people who had great digital apps running.... until they didn't.

Analog technology has it's place when it comes to reliability, safety, and saving lives.

Stop being dramatic.

Anyone who relies solely on any one piece of technology, whether it's a cell phone app or a paper map for their survival, deserves what they get.

Two is one, one is none.

A map and compass do nothing for you if you don't know how to use them, just as an electronic with all the software in the world will not help if you don't understand the technology.

This is the 'guns kill people' argument.

Each has their advantages, and disadvantages. What it boils down to are the needs of the individual, based on their experience, and the environment they find themselves traveling to.
It isn't dramatic. I could easily have been in serious trouble. SAR probably wouldn't have been involved, tho. The phone was broken. I couldn't have called them.

I don't know what this has to do with guns killing people. I guess you mean, if you want to kill someone, make sure your gun isn't broken?

MuddyWaters
08-27-2016, 19:10
"Take paper maps. Your phone could break". Yeah, right. Like my phone's really going to break, right? So I was relying totally on Guthook's app. That thing is great, and it took me all the way to the top of the mountain. Took a picture from there, and then the phone died!
It can happen; take a map.

Darn good thing there was a trail.....

shelterbuilder
08-27-2016, 19:40
Sorry for being "old school", but if you need GPS to tell you if you're off the trail, then maybe - just maybe - you shouldn't be on ANY trail. Just sayin'....
.
But the difference is, the phone app has gps, so it tells you if you're off the trail.

Hikes in Rain
08-27-2016, 20:14
Yes, this. I also have a nice compass. With that, I can triangulate with easily identifiable landmarks, and tell exactly where i am.

jefals
08-27-2016, 20:15
"Take paper maps. Your phone could break". Yeah, right. Like my phone's really going to break, right? So I was relying totally on Guthook's app. That thing is great, and it took me all the way to the top of the mountain. Took a picture from there, and then the phone died!
It can happen; take a map.

Darn good thing there was a trail.....
Well, if there wasn't a trail, I wouldn't have been on it in the first place!:)

Skyline
08-27-2016, 20:15
Exactly right. Printed maps, on waterproof, tear-resistant substrates, have never failed me. Most AT maps are easy to read, and include various ways to bail -- and where you'll be bailing to -- should that be necessary.

If you're bringing a cell phone anyway, and you want to use Guthook or similar, and GPS, that's an option. But as the OP demonstrated -- don't rely on that. Rely on paper maps and know how to read them. Compass and compass skills are just as valuable if you need to bushwhack very far off the AT or side trails.

Cell phones are very common in the woods today (when I did the AT, they were rare but starting to come into their own), and there's no denying they can be convenient. Especially in trail towns with good coverage. But they are notoriously spotty in the mountains. Another reason not to rely on them.

jefals
08-27-2016, 20:19
Sorry for being "old school", but if you need GPS to tell you if you're off the trail, then maybe - just maybe - you shouldn't be on ANY trail. Just sayin'....

I KNEW this was coming! I'm saying, I agree! Take a map! Know how to use it!
That said, no map is going to tell you when you are off trail anywhere close to as good as GPS can!

shelterbuilder
08-27-2016, 20:44
...sorry...couldn't help myself.... ANY technology can fail - and usually at the least opportune time! (I've ruined more than one expensive compass by storing them too close to a strong magnet, but that's another story.) Personally, when I'm out hiking, I don't feel the need to know EXACTLY where I am every minute of the day - I am where I am, and as long as I've found enough water to keep me going, and a reasonable spot to camp for the night, and have seen a few cool things during the day, well...that's enough for me! YMMV Skyline's thoughts RE: bail-out points is valid.
I KNEW this was coming! I'm saying, I agree! Take a map! Know how to use it!
That said, no map is going to tell you when you are off trail anywhere close to as good as GPS can!

AfterParty
08-27-2016, 20:55
A map and compass and protactor are just as accurate as GPS in the right land navigators hands. Obviously this is a skill and must be learned to become poficent.

Venchka
08-27-2016, 21:11
Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

jefals
08-27-2016, 21:35
Personally, when I'm out hiking, I don't feel the need to know EXACTLY where I am every minute of the day - I am where I am, and as long as I've found enough water to keep me going, and a reasonable spot to camp for the night, and have seen a few cool things during the day, well...that's enough for me! YMMV
Yeah, that's good, fun hiking. Where I'm at, the water is scarce, so you really do need to keep track of where you're at..

Feral Bill
08-27-2016, 21:36
A phone working perfectly at all time still has a tiny screen. It is important to have both local detail and the big picture on one display. That tales some square footage. Maybe someday big, fold-able displays for e-maps will come along. I'll stick with paper. At least until then.

jefals
08-27-2016, 21:44
A map and compass and protactor are just as accurate as GPS in the right land navigators hands. Obviously this is a skill and must be learned to become poficent.
Are you saying that a good land navigator can point a compass at a distant mountain or tree, and get a perfectly accurate reading from the exact center of that landmark? Will he know his exact declination from his location at this particular date/time/hour/minute/second? If not, he's not going to be as accurate as a GPS...

bemental
08-27-2016, 22:04
Are you saying that a good land navigator can point a compass at a distant mountain or tree, and get a perfectly accurate reading from the exact center of that landmark? Will he know his exact declination from his location at this particular date/time/hour/minute/second? If not, he's not going to be as accurate as a GPS...

It's called resection, and it requires at least two known points.

It is possible, but in all honesty it requires having a relatively good idea or where you're located at already, and the ability to see those known points. It's reliable, if the other points are known, but it takes good terrain association skills and relating what you see to what's on a map, something most people don't have.

That being said, resection is accurate, if you are correct in identifying your landmarks. Otherwise you'll be completely incorrect and place yourself somewhere else entirely.

Also, don't forget about converting between your grid and magnetic declination That'll throw you off as well.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_resection

jefals
08-27-2016, 22:06
A phone working perfectly at all time still has a tiny screen. It is important to have both local detail and the big picture on one display. That tales some square footage. Maybe someday big, fold-able displays for e-maps will come along. I'll stick with paper. At least until then.
Have you seen any of the guthook trail apps? If you have, and still feel the same, that's fine. But if you are able to download one of their free demo versions, and check it out, it might change your mind.

fiddlehead
08-27-2016, 22:13
Are you saying that a good land navigator can point a compass at a distant mountain or tree, and get a perfectly accurate reading from the exact center of that landmark? Will he know his exact declination from his location at this particular date/time/hour/minute/second? If not, he's not going to be as accurate as a GPS...

Sometimes they old timers forget about the time they were in a whiteout and their paper map did them no good at all if they weren't sure where they were.
I've tried maps in a whiteout: Forget it.
Ask an airplane pilot, or ships captain which they prefer?
The new Via Dinarica trail doesn't even have maps. Just an app.
I'm taking my Garmin (withe the trail on it) AND my phone, with the app. (and use airbnb when I get to towns)
Just sayin.

I was on a 15 million dollar yacht a few weeks ago and the captain was showing me around.
When we were in the bridge with it's wall to wall monitors, guages, and charts spread out with a protractor and dividers laying there, he told me "all this is for show, I use my phone more often than any of it!"

The world is changing. Go with it.

Dan Roper
08-27-2016, 22:35
For some reason, this is a topic that seems to bring out the snarky side in WB contributors.

OldGringo
08-27-2016, 22:59
For some reason, this is a topic that seems to bring out the snarky side in WB contributors.

Real men use maps and compasses..... Those new fangled electronics are trouble...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Dan Roper
08-27-2016, 23:05
I prefer paper maps, but I don't care what other hikers use.

Skyline
08-27-2016, 23:05
Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne



Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."



Well sure, but this is a website by and for "A Community of Appalachian Trail Enthusiasts," or so it says at the top of every page.

Feral Bill
08-28-2016, 00:01
Have you seen any of the guthook trail apps? If you have, and still feel the same, that's fine. But if you are able to download one of their free demo versions, and check it out, it might change your mind. I guess I should take a look. Thank you.

AfterParty
08-28-2016, 00:04
Are you saying that a good land navigator can point a compass at a distant mountain or tree, and get a perfectly accurate reading from the exact center of that landmark? Will he know his exact declination from his location at this particular date/time/hour/minute/second? If not, he's not going to be as accurate as a GPS...

In the army its called land Nav. Get ten grids and find a little numbered sign. Some times the signs are close together so you better have plotted everything correctly.

Sarcasm the elf
08-28-2016, 00:06
Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

This thread made me think about the exact same thing.

I really do wonder how many people take the "you don't need a map" advice that is so commonly given about about A.T. hiking on the internet at face value, I also wonder how many of them make the mistake of generalizing this sort of advice without realizing how unique the A.T. is in this respect. Seeing as the A.T. is the most popular hiking trail in the US I really do think that giving this sort of advice to new hikers is a disservice since it both sets them up to not have the necessary skills needed to hike remote trails as well as setting a false expectation about what is needed to safely navigate in the back country.

For the record and in response to Skyline's comment above, I do see this as a bigger problem on other sites than I do on Whiteblaze. I see this bad advice especially often on Facebook hiking groups where the people asking questions often have no hiking or backwoods experience at all.

jefals
08-28-2016, 01:46
I was on a 15 million dollar yacht a few weeks ago and the captain...
Hey, you have friends with 15 million dollar yachts? I'm gonna start hangin out wit u, ok bud? 😆

jefals
08-28-2016, 01:54
I guess I should take a look. Thank you.
Yes sir. I guess, with a demo version the only thing you won't see is the gps tracking feature which shows your location. There's a red line showing the trail and a blue dot showing your location. Go 10 feet off trail and you will know it.

jefals
08-28-2016, 02:01
For some reason, this is a topic that seems to bring out the snarky side in WB contributors.

Real men use maps and compasses..... Those new fangled electronics are trouble...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hey, this reminds me of that story, I think it was Steve Jobs that said his mother said to him, "Computers? Who would ever want one of those"!

Jeff
08-28-2016, 05:55
The ATC reports a pretty steep decline in map sales. Some point to the cost of an entire set of maps, but I believe online forum comments that "no map is needed" is a big reason sales have dropped.

Deacon
08-28-2016, 06:03
IMHO, maps really shine when you want to know your relative position to some feature or landmark that's off the trail, that perhaps you would like to visit, such as a town or a monument. Other than that, as said by others, I really don't care where exactly I am on the trail.

What I do care about is where the trail is if I should stray off it, which seems to happen to me frequently. This summer, I was coming down the AT off Mt. Minsi into Delaware Water Gap. The trail is about 30 feet wide at that point and well traveled by day hikers. That wide trail goes straight down the mountain but the AT cuts off to the side and I missed it. After 20 minutes I realized my error. Not wanting to backtrack, I checked my position with Guthook's app. I was able to follow along, cut across on a little side trail back to the AT.

Can electronics fail? Sure, but I don't use it 99.99% of the time, but when I need it it's there. It has saved me several times.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lyle
08-28-2016, 08:03
.
But the difference is, the phone app has gps, so it tells you if you're off the trail.

If a person needs GPS to follow and stay on the AT, they REALLY should not be hiking in the back country. The main problem with apps like Guthook, or whatever it's called, is that now even fewer hikers will even carry a map, let alone learn how to read it.

Heliotrope
08-28-2016, 08:35
I have the gut hook app. And it's really wonderful. And as wonderful as the technology is, it has an inherent flaw. The devices will always be vulnerable to damage or battery failure. I can never bring myself to leave the maps behind. The other issue is how much battery power is consumed using the app. And I am reluctant to start carrying around battery packs to keep my phone charged. So the app will remain a backup to the maps.

A nice feature of the maps is that you can enjoy studying them in your tent at night and see where you have been, where you are going, discover interesting features of the landscape, etc. without worrying about draining the battery. Better than a book to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

peakbagger
08-28-2016, 08:37
One thing folks forget about many GPS maps is the quality of data. Trail clubs get revenue from selling updated maps. They are non profits and the money they net after paying for the maps pays to maintain the trails. This is a significant source of revenue for many trail clubs and I expect ATC (but haven't looked at the budget lately). Therefore there is a system that works, the trail clubs get revenue, a portion thereof goes to update maps with the latest information and the remainder of the revenue pays to maintain the trails. I would expect that Guthook and other map developers are using the database of the trail alignment released by ATC, how does this translate to revenue for ATC or the trail clubs?. ATC does not issue trail alignments for blue blaze connecting trails, where does this data come from? In many cases those blue blazes revert to maps in the public domain or stealing information from other copyrighted sources.

Although there are attempts to create collaborative open map data bases, they frequently are going to have gaps and in order to fill out the maps, the general approach is to default back to public domain sources. Anyone that has used Google Maps to look up the AT route most likely has found places where the location of the AT shown is not the current alignment.

On a recent bushwhack we decided to veer off a bearing course and elected to head over to an existing trail. One of the participants turned on her navigation ap on her IPhone, it showed the trail immediately adjacent to a stream bed. Rather then following the terrain we elected to head straight to the trail. At some point we crossed the streambed and the ap as well as the USGS map indicated we were right on top of the trail. After some searching, one of the group found the trace of what looked to be a herd path. It was in the general direction we wanted to go so we followed it. It was loaded with old blowdown and would appear and disappear. After awhile we did find evidence it was an old trail but to someone in trouble or in the dark it was not something easy to follow. We eventually intersected with the actual trail and made it back to the car.

When I got back home I did some research, we were using the USGS map which was published in 1997, this particular series of maps in the Whites used a much older trails database which in some cases show abandoned trails and trail alignments that haven't been accurate for 10 to 15 years prior to the USGS map date. Its apparent that the GPS ap had the USGS alignment. The AMC map ( a copyrighted source funded by purchasers) had the correct alignment. Apparently at some point a 1.5 mile section of trail was relocated. Based on my observations of the old route it had been easily 25 years since it was last used.

So what is going to replace the source of funding and incentive to keep up to date and accurate trail alignments? Is Guthook and other app developers writing a check to the ATC and other trail maintaining clubs to update the trail database? I expect that most hikers could give a darn about how the maps get updated but I bet most have an expectation that the maps on their aps will be accurate and that's not the case currently with other than the major trail alignment.

MuddyWaters
08-28-2016, 09:08
GPS, especially phone GPS, is a tool.
It's only ONE tool

And it's made of glass, not water proof (usually), and has a battery that lasts one day . Gee, inspires confidence?
All you have to do is drop a pos smartphone on rocks to render it unusable. Both my kids have done it several times. Yeah, they have $80 cases. Funny how it always happens when not in them.


If you can follow trail, you don't need map on daily basis.

Maps ans compass on AT are for when you do need them, when everything has gone wrong.

Leo L.
08-28-2016, 09:38
Can't speak for the AT as I've never been there, but on my desert hikes in the Middle East, as well as on my recent local hikes, smartphone GPS proofed to be a miraculous thing.
I do take care about my smartphone itself (which is waterproof btw), as well as about the battery life.
For my desert hikes this took place in areas where no maps of any reasonable quality are available, so I'm working with Google Earth exclusively (that had been paper printouts in the older times, now running GE in cache mode on the smartphone - just great!), and on my local hikes I'm using an app that contains the official map of Austria, which is "the mother of all maps" for our area. Accurate down to the single tree. Really love it.
So while I still carry a paper map as a backup, I would never step back from the smartphone navigation.

Traveler
08-28-2016, 10:17
Sometimes they old timers forget about the time they were in a whiteout and their paper map did them no good at all if they weren't sure where they were.
I've tried maps in a whiteout: Forget it.
Ask an airplane pilot, or ships captain which they prefer?
The new Via Dinarica trail doesn't even have maps. Just an app.
I'm taking my Garmin (withe the trail on it) AND my phone, with the app. (and use airbnb when I get to towns)
Just sayin.

I was on a 15 million dollar yacht a few weeks ago and the captain was showing me around.
When we were in the bridge with it's wall to wall monitors, guages, and charts spread out with a protractor and dividers laying there, he told me "all this is for show, I use my phone more often than any of it!"

The world is changing. Go with it.

Actually the world isn't changing that much, the FAA and Nautical regulations still have language that require charts to be used (multi engine and commercial use aircraft and professionally operated vessels over 39.4 feet or over 1600 tonnes). As a pilot, I like the convenience of the GPS, but having experienced electrical problems in flight, GPS outages that can occur, and device failures, I always have a chart in my lap and routinely check my position on the chart during flight. Most all the pilots I know who fly their own aircraft have similar discipline. If the yacht captain is a professional with various ratings, he was probably right in saying he used his GPS phone gizmo most of the time to check on course, etc. But you can be sure the bridge watch had charts out not just for display of impressionable passengers, but as a navigational tool coupled with the electronics. As with aviation, most long distance travel requires the use of larger charts for a reasonably accurate view of the course and any changes that have been made. Anything not necessary for the safe conduct of the voyage/flight is usually not just laying around given cockpit and bridge resource/space management needs. If they are laying about and not being used for reference its not a very professional demonstration of good seamanship.

As pointed out, GPS is a tool that really depends on where you are and what you are doing that dictates if having either a map, a GPS, or both is a good idea. FWIW, I tend to carry maps all the time, with GPS as a back up tool on unfamiliar terrain. As Elf points out, the AT is a unique, well marked and worn trail that GPS is fairly well suited for and is often said to be all one needs. However, that advice may not serve well on other trails that are less worn, marked, and maintained. An electronic failure of any cause could prove to be a real problem.

soulrebel
08-28-2016, 10:31
Both. Redundancy. The maps are less likely to get destroyed and don't require power. However, GPS or smartphone is quick and easy. Downside-you might need to carry 2 backup batteries, backup cable, and possibly a small solar panel if you want to rely on it. Even then you should probably have a map of the general area, a photo, drawing, or real map. Thankfully, most trails are well-marked and if you have good supplies, gear, and general fitness 99% of the time things are good to go. Mostly, it's about ATTITUDE when things do go awry.

Puddlefish
08-28-2016, 10:35
Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

This was posted on the general forum under the APPALACHIAN TRAIL category. Yes, obviously you take different gear on different hikes.

I've always brought a map and compass hiking through the woods of NH. The trails near me at least often cross and have a variety of mismatched and outdated blazes and signage. I've used those maps and compasses, never in an emergency situation, but just to generally know where I was, and to avoid backtracking to the trail head.

I started the AT with maps, but after 300 miles I sent them home. The few times I wandered down a blue blaze by mistake, I was able to figure it out and easily turn around. The trail is very well marked and distinctive in how much traffic there is on it. I often went 200 feet off trail to camp or brown blaze, and felt confident I knew exactly how to return to the trail. Your mileage may vary depending on your own sense of direction and the conditions.

I used the Guthook app, but never felt I really needed it for navigation on the AT. It was more of a fun toy, and I never got stressed if the battery was low.

jefals
08-28-2016, 10:40
I have the gut hook app. And it's really wonderful. And as wonderful as the technology is, it has an inherent flaw. The devices will always be vulnerable to damage or battery failure. I can never bring myself to leave the maps behind. The other issue is how much battery power is consumed using the app. And I am reluctant to start carrying around battery packs to keep my phone charged. So the app will remain a backup to the maps.

A nice feature of the maps is that you can enjoy studying them in your tent at night and see where you have been, where you are going, discover interesting features of the landscape, etc. without worrying about draining the battery. Better than a book to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm the kind of guy that likes the technology. I'm a 70 year old grandpa, and I know my kids would worry about me out there, so I'm going to be using my phone to communicate with them, also take pictures. So I take along a bunch of spare batteries. Actually, on this last hike when I got to the top of the mountain, my plan was to hike to a tent site 1.7 miles away (guthook gives you this kind of info - the upcoming tent sites, towns, views, water sources, their altitudes and how far away from them you are). But, when the phone died there on the mountain top, I knew the kids would be worried if they didnt hear from me, so decided to hike all the way out and come home.

jefals
08-28-2016, 10:58
Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

This was posted on the general forum under the APPALACHIAN TRAIL category. Yes, obviously you take different gear on different hikes.


To clarify, I was not on the AT when I had this mishap. I was on a water-scarce section of the TRT. Sorry for any confusion. This was meant to be my thoughts on a general hiking/backpacking topic.

Deacon
08-28-2016, 13:19
IMHO, maps really shine when you want to know your relative position to some feature or landmark that's off the trail, that perhaps you would like to visit, such as a town or a monument. Other than that, as said by others, I really don't care where exactly I am on the trail.

What I do care about is where the trail is if I should stray off it, which seems to happen to me frequently. This summer, I was coming down the AT off Mt. Minsi into Delaware Water Gap. The trail is about 30 feet wide at that point and well traveled by day hikers. That wide trail goes straight down the mountain but the AT cuts off to the side and I missed it. After 20 minutes I realized my error. Not wanting to backtrack, I checked my position with Guthook's app. I was able to follow along, cut across on a little side trail back to the AT.

Can electronics fail? Sure, but I don't use it 99.99% of the time, but when I need it it's there. It has saved me several times.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I should clarify that I don't use gps (Guthook) so much for navigation, that is to find my way, but for an occasional quick check to make sure I'm still on the trail if I think I've strayed.

Malto
08-28-2016, 15:40
A map and compass and protactor are just as accurate as GPS in the right land navigators hands. Obviously this is a skill and must be learned to become poficent.

Unless you have zero or near zero visibility.

this issue has been beaten to death. When not on a super highway trail (like the AT) I will have maps but also I will have a way to pull in a GPS coordinate off the phone. If you rely on a phone only then you will likely find out that battery life is only an issue when you need it.

jefals
08-28-2016, 18:02
A map and compass and protactor are just as accurate as GPS in the right land navigators hands. Obviously this is a skill and must be learned to become poficent.

Unless you have zero or near zero visibility.

this issue has been beaten to death. When not on a super highway trail (like the AT) I will have maps but also I will have a way to pull in a GPS coordinate off the phone. If you rely on a phone only then you will likely find out that battery life is only an issue when you need it.

I agree - I have read this discussion many times. The reason I thought I would bring it up again is because, every time, up to now , when I've read "the phone could stop working", my attitude has always been that, yes, THEORETICALLY, this is a possibility, but in real life the phone's not going to break. So, I feel others may also have that attitude, and I now have the experience to tell you that, "Yes, Absolutely, THE PHONE CAN STOP WORKING!!"
And, again, I did post this to the wrong forum. I'm aware, now, that there is a general, NON-AT forum where it should have been posted: sorry for that. When my phone stopped working, I was on a trail much less traveled, and with much less water than the AT.

DavidNH
08-28-2016, 20:37
Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.

Venchka
08-28-2016, 22:42
Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.
With or without the phone, most of them will be the same. Helpless. Clueless. With an attitude.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

jefals
08-28-2016, 23:18
Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.
With or without the phone, most of them will be the same. Helpless. Clueless. With an attitude.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."
Come on! That's the FUTURE OF AMERICA you're talkin about! 😊

Gambit McCrae
08-29-2016, 08:06
Or....
Take map & compass.
Phone with app as backup.
Wayne
Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Wayne I don't mean to be rude, but Guthooks is for AT/ PCT hikes. I have not hiked any of the PCT and only half of the AT but I can not remember a time on the AT in the southern half where a compass would have been useful, or when I could have gotten lost for the need of a compass. Northern half of the AT/ the PCT more viable for a compass?

Hikingjim
08-29-2016, 08:26
Wayne I don't mean to be rude, but Guthooks is for AT/ PCT hikes. I have not hiked any of the PCT and only half of the AT but I can not remember a time on the AT in the southern half where a compass would have been useful, or when I could have gotten lost for the need of a compass. Northern half of the AT/ the PCT more viable for a compass?

Compass is basically an emergency item on the AT. I have never used it on the AT, but carry one
It is easier to get lost in certain areas on the north half of the AT. Still don't need your compass out!
I have seen multiple people get temporarily lost on the LT and the AT. Took a side trail by mistake, messed up on a rocky open area, etc.

Puddlefish
08-29-2016, 08:43
Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.

Not much in practice. I've been an advocate of maps and compasses since my coastal sailing days, but there really isn't a lot of need for them on the AT, if you have even a generally good sense of direction.

You follow the white blazes, if you don't see a white blaze for a while you backtrack until you see one. You chat with the people around you. You notice when you wander down a side trail, and suddenly it narrows, or the leaves aren't pulped to a muddy mess, or there are numerous trees across the trail, it just looks different.

Let's not pretend kids today are any more clueless than we were as kids. A tiny percentage of us had boy scout/girl scout/wilderness training. The rest had to learn from miscellaneous sources that might or might not be particularly accurate. Most of my childhood reading was about heroes soundlessly moving through the woods without ever clumsily stepping on a twig, navigating by the moss on the north side of the trees, making beds out of convenient pine boughs and snaring a rabbit just in time for dinner every night.

Kids today have all the answers at their finger tips. They're vastly more prepared for new adventures than we ever were.

rafe
08-29-2016, 08:47
Both. Why not. But always a paper map. Electronics can fail for all kinds of reasons.

tscoffey
08-29-2016, 11:17
Real men use maps and compasses..... Those new fangled electronics are trouble...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The deliciousness of these two statements being paired together cannot be appreciated enough.

rocketsocks
08-29-2016, 12:15
Both. Why not. But always a paper map. Electronics can fail for all kinds of reasons.
That's what I do as well.

Venchka
08-29-2016, 13:22
Come on! That's the FUTURE OF AMERICA you're talkin about! [emoji4]

Yes. And I'm old enough to hopefully check out before they wreck it completely.


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Odd Man Out
08-29-2016, 13:33
I used the Guthook App on my last three day section. It was not necessary for navigation, but then I was in SNP where getting lost is pretty much impossible. It was nice as an e-version of the guide so I could figure out where the next water supply or shelter/tent site was. It was also useful for tracking my progress (miles per hour hiked), which is useful info to know. These features were nice, however none fit into the necessary category.

jefals
08-29-2016, 14:21
Come on! That's the FUTURE OF AMERICA you're talkin about! [emoji4]

Yes. And I'm old enough to hopefully check out before they wreck it completely.


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."
Hey, it wasn't the kids that nominated Don and Hil, ya know. I'm not sure where we're heading, but I don't think this is exactly the dawning of the age of aquarious ..😕

T.Bates
08-29-2016, 14:22
Yes. And I'm old enough to hopefully check out before they wreck it completely.


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

So much hostility towards the younger generation coming from the generation that will completely wipe out social security... and we're the ones wrecking it.... I completely agree and usually try to carry two forms of navigation. I know how to navigate by compass as I was in a public school that actually taught us the basics on how to navigate but have only ever used my phone. Using a phone allows you to use the GPS, MPH, terrain, and much more. It makes much more sense to use something that is so multi-function and can do much more then a paper map. Again I do try to carry more than one form of navigation but hey, HYOH.

FlyPaper
08-29-2016, 16:30
For me, plan A is to follow the white blazes. Anything beyond that (e.g. maps or phone app) are at best plan B.

Plan B, if I find myself off the trail, is to backtrack until I'm back on the trail. Maps/Phone apps are plan C in this case.

Skyline
08-29-2016, 16:58
T.Bates if you've never had technology fail on you, you are indeed a lucky millennial.

I can't speak to the ultimate future of SS, but my thought is that your parent's generation and maybe the one preceding it, by choosing to have fewer children, are making it difficult for those currently in the (smaller) workforce to support the needs of (larger number of) older generations currently receiving SS. But I do believe it will be tweaked in important and necessary ways, and if current birth rates don't increase, SS will be OK into the future until you need it.

Good to have more than one type of navigation, if you must. The most reliable is the analog simplest, especially on the well-blazed AT. HYOH

JumpMaster Blaster
08-29-2016, 18:10
I carry both. GPS for on-the fly positioning and amp/compass as a backup.

Backstory_ in the military map reading and land nav started taking a backseat to GPS. I always stressed the importance of being able to read a map to my troops. One time we were doing dismounted land nav after about three hours of doing map reading, resection, intersection, pace counts, etc. I dropped the guys off at the start point, and right before I left, I collected all their cell phones (should have seen the looks on their faces) and said "I'll see you at the finish". They had handheld radios to contact me just in case. Sure enough, about 90 minutes later they started coming in, a lot more confident in their skills.

Bringing a map & compass & protractor is fine if you know how to use them properly. If not, stick to the GPS. There's no right or wrong answer. There are a lot of places on the AT where you can have a map all day long but all you see is rhodo tunnels or some random ridgeline. For intersection & resection to work you have to have some idea of where you are, your last point of reference or grid location or what the other features are.

Like another poster said, a map is nice to pore over in the tent and plot out the terrain you'll be tackling the next day.

jefals
08-29-2016, 18:54
Or....
Take map & compass.
Phone with app as backup.
Wayne
Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Wayne I don't mean to be rude, but Guthooks is for AT/ PCT hikes. I have not hiked any of the PCT and only half of the AT but I can not remember a time on the AT in the southern half where a compass would have been useful, or when I could have gotten lost for the need of a compass. Northern half of the AT/ the PCT more viable for a compass?
We know, tragically, that even an experienced hiker on the AT can get lost going off trail to the bathroom. If that happens and you have guthook, you can easily get back to the trail.

rocketsocks
08-29-2016, 20:35
So much hostility towards the younger generation coming from the generation that will completely wipe out social security... and we're the ones wrecking it.... I completely agree and usually try to carry two forms of navigation. I know how to navigate by compass as I was in a public school that actually taught us the basics on how to navigate but have only ever used my phone. Using a phone allows you to use the GPS, MPH, terrain, and much more. It makes much more sense to use something that is so multi-function and can do much more then a paper map. Again I do try to carry more than one form of navigation but hey, HYOH.


T.Bates if you've never had technology fail on you, you are indeed a lucky millennial.

I can't speak to the ultimate future of SS, but my thought is that your parent's generation and maybe the one preceding it, by choosing to have fewer children, are making it difficult for those currently in the (smaller) workforce to support the needs of (larger number of) older generations currently receiving SS. But I do believe it will be tweaked in important and necessary ways, and if current birth rates don't increase, SS will be OK into the future until you need it.

Good to have more than one type of navigation, if you must. The most reliable is the analog simplest, especially on the well-blazed AT. HYOHpretty sure we're talkin' about compasses with the little needle, not moral compasses, fur if that were the case we'd all be lost.

Another Kevin
08-30-2016, 21:57
Let me speak to the "zero visibility" problem.

I hike in the East. About a third of my hikes involve at least some off-trail travel. There's frequently very little visible in the dense vegetation. Some of my trips have been more swimming in spruce than walking.

I carry an altimeter as well as map and compass. If I haven't forgotten which mountain I'm on, I can get a very rough fix - but good enough to guide me out of trouble - from altitude and aspect of slope: "I'm at 3250 feet and the ground is dropping off to the ESE." (follow the 3250 foot contour around the hill and find somewhere that it's running in the right direction) "OK, I must be about here."

The altimeter is on my watch and so it could have a dead battery, and so, of course, could the GPS on my smartphone. They're all tools, and I'll happily use all of them, while saying that the map and compass are primary.

Learn about handrails, backstops, collecting features. I use ridges and cliffs and streams and fences to locate myself all the time. I can't think of when I last did a sight resection for real (as opposed to teaching it).

Dogwood
08-30-2016, 22:13
Actually the world isn't changing that much, the FAA and Nautical regulations still have language that require charts to be used (multi engine and commercial use aircraft and professionally operated vessels over 39.4 feet or over 1600 tonnes). As a pilot, I like the convenience of the GPS, but having experienced electrical problems in flight, GPS outages that can occur, and device failures, I always have a chart in my lap and routinely check my position on the chart during flight. Most all the pilots I know who fly their own aircraft have similar discipline. If the yacht captain is a professional with various ratings, he was probably right in saying he used his GPS phone gizmo most of the time to check on course, etc. But you can be sure the bridge watch had charts out not just for display of impressionable passengers, but as a navigational tool coupled with the electronics. As with aviation, most long distance travel requires the use of larger charts for a reasonably accurate view of the course and any changes that have been made. Anything not necessary for the safe conduct of the voyage/flight is usually not just laying around given cockpit and bridge resource/space management needs. If they are laying about and not being used for reference its not a very professional demonstration of good seamanship.

As pointed out, GPS is a tool that really depends on where you are and what you are doing that dictates if having either a map, a GPS, or both is a good idea. FWIW, I tend to carry maps all the time, with GPS as a back up tool on unfamiliar terrain. As Elf points out, the AT is a unique, well marked and worn trail that GPS is fairly well suited for and is often said to be all one needs. However, that advice may not serve well on other trails that are less worn, marked, and maintained. An electronic failure of any cause could prove to be a real problem.

Good info.

BTW, redundancy despite the UL advice to avoid it sometimes is prudent IMO. i.e; two ways to start fire one beyond depending on a lighter, especially during winter, possibly two pr socks of varying characteristics, two light sources, etc. It depends.

Dogwood
08-30-2016, 22:16
Let me speak to the "zero visibility" problem.

I hike in the East. About a third of my hikes involve at least some off-trail travel. There's frequently very little visible in the dense vegetation. Some of my trips have been more swimming in spruce than walking.

I carry an altimeter as well as map and compass. If I haven't forgotten which mountain I'm on, I can get a very rough fix - but good enough to guide me out of trouble - from altitude and aspect of slope: "I'm at 3250 feet and the ground is dropping off to the ESE." (follow the 3250 foot contour around the hill and find somewhere that it's running in the right direction) "OK, I must be about here."

The altimeter is on my watch and so it could have a dead battery, and so, of course, could the GPS on my smartphone. They're all tools, and I'll happily use all of them, while saying that the map and compass are primary.

Learn about handrails, backstops, collecting features. I use ridges and cliffs and streams and fences to locate myself all the time. I can't think of when I last did a sight resection for real (as opposed to teaching it).

What are all those things? No one EVER EVER needs to learn about such mumbo jumbo. Redundant.

Venchka
08-31-2016, 07:22
For me, plan A is to follow the white blazes. Anything beyond that (e.g. maps or phone app) are at best plan B.

Plan B, if I find myself off the trail, is to backtrack until I'm back on the trail. Maps/Phone apps are plan C in this case.

For those of us who hike where white blazes are nonexistent, we need to pay attention to our navigation methods.
Leaving tomorrow for a decades overdue backpacking trip in 2 wilderness areas in southern Colorado including sections of the CDT. Maps by CalTopo. Compass by Silva. App by Guthook.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Five Tango
08-31-2016, 08:57
Downloaded Guthook yesterday as that is the only app I have seen mentioned lately.Nice!

First thing it tells you is "electronic devices can and do fail".Whoda thunkit?

The battery on my map has never failed me and it works when damp.AGG bandana with Trail Guide Info on it
likely the best invention for a good general approach.

lynn523
08-31-2016, 08:59
Add Content

Another Kevin
08-31-2016, 09:22
What are all those things? No one EVER EVER needs to learn about such mumbo jumbo. Redundant.

I laughed out loud when I read that, thanks! :D

But given the ways of the Internet, I feel compelled to point out: HE'S JOKING!

jefals
08-31-2016, 12:03
Downloaded Guthook yesterday as that is the only app I have seen mentioned lately.Nice!

Halfmile is another good one. At least for the PCT. One thing it has is a little arrow that will point you back to the trail - you can't get much easier than that!

Sarcasm the elf
08-31-2016, 12:57
Let me speak to the "zero visibility" problem.

I hike in the East. About a third of my hikes involve at least some off-trail travel. There's frequently very little visible in the dense vegetation. Some of my trips have been more swimming in spruce than walking.

I carry an altimeter as well as map and compass. If I haven't forgotten which mountain I'm on, I can get a very rough fix - but good enough to guide me out of trouble - from altitude and aspect of slope: "I'm at 3250 feet and the ground is dropping off to the ESE." (follow the 3250 foot contour around the hill and find somewhere that it's running in the right direction) "OK, I must be about here."

The altimeter is on my watch and so it could have a dead battery, and so, of course, could the GPS on my smartphone. They're all tools, and I'll happily use all of them, while saying that the map and compass are primary.

Learn about handrails, backstops, collecting features. I use ridges and cliffs and streams and fences to locate myself all the time. I can't think of when I last did a sight resection for real (as opposed to teaching it).

What kind of nut would want to hike like that? ;)
36065

Another Kevin
08-31-2016, 13:39
What kind of nut would want to hike like that? ;)
36065

This kind?
https://c7.staticflickr.com/4/3905/14690992486_bda5e5d813_z.jpg
(https://flic.kr/p/oocbeU)
Or this kind?
https://c3.staticflickr.com/3/2921/14738136242_c13acef629_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/osmNrh)

The technical term for that particular sort of nut is 'bush-whacko.' ;)

The pictures are also illustrating some more equipment that's nice to have. (Click through twice to see in more detail.) Note that the hikers in both pictures are wearing safety glasses. They're an absolute must for hiking in that sort of terrain. (In winter, I replace the safety glasses with USMC surplus flight-deck goggles.) And in the second picture, the hiker in the blue shirt is pulling a bead on a pace counter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pace_count_beads). Paces can be estimated only very roughly in bad terrain, of course, but even a rough estimate is better than nothing. The ranger beads are an important navigational instrument that I neglected to mention in my last post!

Aside to Elf: I still haven't managed to do Friday Mountain. My foot finally seems to be healing... I'm at least managing a few miles on relatively easy trail. Maybe I'll be up to finishing in 2017. It's frustrating - just six climbs to go! All of them in similar terrain, of course.