Impact of Freezer Bags vs Dish Washing

[eabyrd1506]

First, sorry if this is in the wrong place, I didn't see a LNT forum per-se.

I've been contemplating the impact of using Freezer Bag Cooking (and packing out the used freezer bags obviously) vs the impact of a little ivory soap and water to wash my pot after dinner. Given the assumptions that 1) soapy water used would be disposed of down the privy if possible and disbursed 200' away from a body of water. 2) I'm going to be using some soapy water anyway to clean up (I wear contact lenses) and 3) it isn't likely many trail-heads / trail towns will offer the "plastic bag recycling" necessary to recycle ziplock (generic not brand) freezer bags I'm thinking I'd probably have much less impact washing my dishes each night.

That being said my experience is limited almost to the point of non-existence so I am interested in the thoughts of others on the topic.

How do you minimize the impact of freezer bags if you use them? Am I wrong about recycling opportunities along the AT?

Thanks

Ed

[Coffee]

I do not use freezer bags and routinely cook in my Jetboil. I do what many long distance hikers do to clean up. For breakfast, I eat oatmeal first and clean out as much as I can with my spoon. Then I boil water in the same pot for coffee (without cleaning the pot) and drink the coffee. Almost all of the oatmeal residue is gone at that point and I dry it with a bandana. For dinner, I cook my meal in the pot and afterwards add a bit of water and clean out the rest with my fingers and then drink the water. Gross sounding, I know, I know, but it really isn't all that bad. Note that I am meticulous about washing my hands prior to doing any meal preparation; otherwise this could cause illness. Any bacterial residue left in the pot after drying that could cause illness should be killed the next time I boil water.

If you can get past the "gross" factor this is basically zero impact - no wastewater, no freezer bags to dispose of, just small zip locks for the food to be held in prior to cooking.

This is what I've been doing for the past three years on many long hikes.

[One Half]

soap is completely unnecessary for cleaning dishes.

[eabyrd1506]

Coffee, thanks that's helpful but what about washing your hands. Do you use soap and water or an alcohol based germ killer? (The alcohol stuff doesn't really work well with contact lenses, talk about feeling the burn)

[illabelle]

I'm always cooking for two, and haven't used the FBC methods. Most of our hot meals require the cleanup of two bowls and two spoons, sometimes the pot as well. When possible, the pot is only for heating water (oatmeal and mashed potatoes are good examples). I quit using soap for dishwashing quite a while ago. I can clean everything satisfactorily with less than a cup of water. If I don't have to clean the pot, a half-cup is almost enough. Keys to making it easy: no leftovers, avoid greasy foods, don't let food burn or stick to bottom, sequence meals so that messiest item is first (ex: water for hot cocoa after meal removes residues). We're normally on the trail for short periods, weekends and occasional weeklong sections. For a longer hike, I would plan to wash with soap in town on a resupply.

I can't bring myself to even contemplate drinking dishwater.

[DuneElliot]

I FBC. All of my food would be in some kind of ziploc/freezer bag to be packed anyway so cooking in the bag itself seems just logical. Either way, you are going to have trash...either from the original packaging or from the ziploc/FB. I try to rinse them out a little on a longer trip and then use them for my garbage bags for my snack and lunch wrappers. They do double duty in that sense.

[nsherry61]

Great thinking about impact. Much appreciated.

I think that an "impact budget" for freezer bag cooking vs. in-pot cooking and cleaning would require us to look at how we pack our meals for in-pot cooking. If we are already packing our meals as single meals in bags, I don't know that cooking in the bag vs. cooking in the pot makes much difference. However, if we are truly trying to minimize our impact beyond just our impact on the trail we are hiking, we should also probably look at how we repackage our food and what processed & packaged food we eat vs. what we can buy and carry in bulk.

Hmmm. Should we stop teaching beginning backpackers to break open all their packaged food and repackaging it lighter and more compactly into organized plastic bags for each meal and/or part there of? I sure as heck go through a lot of ziplock bags in prep for a backpacking trip. I have watched videos and/or read bits by people that buy their food in bulk, process it at home (i.e. cook and dry or whatever) and then package all their meals in wax paper instead of plastic.

Personally, I'm too lazy to go to all the trouble to make and process all my food, heck, I don't even do that for dinner at home as much as would be good.

Maybe we should start a thread on advanced, lazy-person, easy, and environmentally responsible food prep? I'd love some creative ideas on minimizing food processing and prep impact without too much effort.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Coffee, thanks that's helpful but what about washing your hands. Do you use soap and water or an alcohol based germ killer? (The alcohol stuff doesn't really work well with contact lenses, talk about feeling the burn)

Handwashing with Soap and water are essential for proper back country hygiene and it is the most basic precaution recommended by nearly every medical association to prevent the spread of infection. Alcohol based sanitizers are helpful, however they have their limits and are ineffective against some common back country pathogens, most notably Norovirus. Your comment is spot on that proper hand washing becomes more essential if you are handling contact lenses.

That said, when it comes to cooking in my pot, I generally do what coffee mentions and bring both cooking and rinse water to a rolling boil to sanitize my cookpot. I rarely use soap to wash it while on trail, though it does get a good scrubbing whenever I am in a hotel or hostel.

[Rain Man]

Given the assumptions that 1) soapy water used would be disposed of down the privy if possible ....

Perhaps nitpicking, but not sure trail volunteers would really want soapy water poured into privies. Seems that would seriously affect the bacteria breaking down the contents properly.

[Puddlefish]

A lot of common backpacking practices aren't particularly ecologically sound, which is a different from LNT. I went through countless zip lock bags, repackaging most everything for size, convenience and keeping it fresh and clean. I cooked in the bags and then used them as trash containers, packing everything out.

I guess you could buy certain foods in bulk, like oatmeal and bring the single packaging container on the trail. Not really practical for resupply however, you'd end up carrying that big old cardboard tube style container wasting half your pack space. In reality, I think you just have to relegate yourself to the fact that you'll be making purchasing decision that involve a whole lot of small portion inefficient packaging while on the trail. Then you'll have to pack it out to the nearest convenient trash where it begins it's journey on the remainder of it's trashy life cycle.

Also, don't pour liquids into privies, a lot of them have a planned decomposition regime based on the standard proportions of human waste to duff. It sometimes gets more complicated, but there will be specific signage in those privies telling you what they want.

[DuneElliot]

Perhaps nitpicking, but not sure trail volunteers would really want soapy water poured into privies. Seems that would seriously affect the bacteria breaking down the contents properly.

As long as it's not anti-bacterial soap it should be fine...we use regular soap in septic tanks all the time. Regular soap doesn't kill bacteria it combines with the greasy deposits on pots and hands and then rinses off with the "dirt".

[Coffee]

Coffee, thanks that's helpful but what about washing your hands. Do you use soap and water or an alcohol based germ killer? (The alcohol stuff doesn't really work well with contact lenses, talk about feeling the burn)

A few drops of Dr Bronners and an ounce of water, well away from camp and water sources. I guess that is a little impact but not much.

[Coffee]

I should say that sometimes I feel a little self conscious with my methods when camped with others in which case I bring an evening hot beverage like hot chocolate to drink after dinner (after eating almost everything out of the pot) so that I can just boil water and drink an actual beverage rather than "dishwater" - more socially acceptable.

I agree that there's a difference between lnt and low overall environmental impact with respect to trash. You can practice lnt with freezer bag cooking but it seems higher impact than using small sandwich bags for food and cooking in the pot. I tend to think more about lnt than overall environmental impact personally.

[Just Bill]

I've been working on (not super successfully) eliminating plastic bags.

For dried goods, just a brown paper lunch bag works.
For meals- https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Value-Waxed-Paper-Bags/dp/B001KUSK5G
For smaller snacks and/or Gatorade drink mixes- https://www.amazon.com/4in-Glassine-Waxed-Paper-Bags/dp/B0062BW6EY/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1474046081&sr=8-5&keywords=waxed+paper+bags

I use some paper tape to seal them.

I say not super successfully because the wax paper bags for meals almost have to be re-taped at the bottoms to prevent smaller spices and dried powders (like Nido) from leaking out.
They are not moisture proof- So stuffing the food into a 2-gallon ziplock still seems needed.
They occasionally break, and this can make it a hassle to carry your day's rations in your hipbelt (requiring a quart sized freezer bag).
It is nowhere near as easy as using plastic bags.

But... though not perfect- I'm down to just a few plastic bags that are readily re-used from trip to trip.

The bonus- all of your trash makes for either a good emergency and/or practical fire starter.

On the actual washing...
The old billy bath with doc bronners and a bandana is a decent way to clean both pot and self when needed.

Handwashing I find is most easily done when carrying a water bladder. When filled tight it is easy to either step on, squeeze under your arm, or kneel on at camp to let you wash up and rinse away from your water source.

Agree- don't think dishwater belongs in a privy... but if you're washing dishes you're probably at camp... dig a cathole for immediate or morning use for your dinner dishwater/scraps and simply finish it off when you're ready or before you leave camp.

[Cheyou]

As long as it's not anti-bacterial soap it should be fine...we use regular soap in septic tanks all the time. Regular soap doesn't kill bacteria it combines with the greasy deposits on pots and hands and then rinses off with the "dirt".

i have pumped a lot of septic tanks . The soap and grease are not eaten by the bacteria always .they end up as a large mass. I won't b poring my soap water in the privies . But HYOH.

Thom

[Coffee]

I once had a property that was on septic that failed. It was an unbelievably disgusting and horrible experience and so expensive to fix, although I always felt the guys fixing it were still underpaid. Be really, really aware of what you put in systems on a septic.

[DuneElliot]

I once had a property that was on septic that failed. It was an unbelievably disgusting and horrible experience and so expensive to fix, although I always felt the guys fixing it were still underpaid. Be really, really aware of what you put in systems on a septic.

Oh I agree, but REGULAR soap, not the anti-bacterial kind because it destroys the needed bacteria in the tank, shouldn't ever be a problem. We've had septic tank issues also, but more because it's a old tank with design flaws that need to be managed. Nothing except water, soap and certain types of TP should ever go into the septic along with your business! Same goes for privvies!

[Puddlefish]

I've been working on (not super successfully) eliminating plastic bags.

For dried goods, just a brown paper lunch bag works.
For meals- https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Value-Waxed-Paper-Bags/dp/B001KUSK5G
For smaller snacks and/or Gatorade drink mixes- https://www.amazon.com/4in-Glassine-Waxed-Paper-Bags/dp/B0062BW6EY/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1474046081&sr=8-5&keywords=waxed+paper+bags

I use some paper tape to seal them.

I say not super successfully because the wax paper bags for meals almost have to be re-taped at the bottoms to prevent smaller spices and dried powders (like Nido) from leaking out.
They are not moisture proof- So stuffing the food into a 2-gallon ziplock still seems needed.
They occasionally break, and this can make it a hassle to carry your day's rations in your hipbelt (requiring a quart sized freezer bag).
It is nowhere near as easy as using plastic bags.

Some good ideas, I'll explore them further. Maybe not perfect but at least I can say I'm trying.

[Another Kevin]

On freezer bag cooking:

When I consider the amount of petroleum that a freezer bag uses, compared with the amount I burn getting to the trailhead, the net impact is a drop in the bucket.

Freezer bags are for the most part LMWPE - which incinerates pretty cleanly in a hot enough fire. If someone has a roaring fire going at a shelter, I have few qualms about incinerating freezer bags. There's very little emitted besides carbon dioxide. (Again, comparing the carbon footprint of that practice versus what I burn getting to the trailhead, it's a drop in the bucket.)

Plastic in the waste stream can be a real problem. Even most plastic 'recycling' programs typically have asphalt as their output. (The exception is soft drink bottles - they're very high quality PET or PBT, and can readily be recycled into clothing. Your fleece jacket is likely made of pop bottles.)

So, I mostly do the ungreen thing of FBC, wash out the bags when I get home and toss them into 'single stream' recycling, where they'll wind up in someone's parking lot.

On cleaning the cookpot:

I do also cook in the cookpot - because I sometimes do things like dal bhaat tarkari, with the rice and lentils done FBC and the curry made in the pot from dehydrated ingredients. I also do the "clean out the cookpot with a gloop of water and drink the soup" thing, which is a lot less disgusting than it sounds, and I depend on the next boil to sterilize the pot. If I've used my mug for food, it needs to get washed with soap, though. (I'll wash my spork at the same time, so that I can use it for cold food - otherwise I'll have to boil it, too.)

On disposing of wash water:

With greywater from washing dishes or socks or me, I follow the recommendations of the land manager. In some places, that's to distribute it as widely as possible. In other places, it goes in a cathole. All washing is done away from the water source. If I'm washing more than my hands, I use the cookpot for wash water and my Sea to Summit bucket for rinse water.

Please do NOT put liquids in the privy. (That extends to peeing in the woods before you use it.) A privy hole isn't a septic tank, and the privy doesn't have an absorption field. The stuff down the privy will decompose a lot faster if it isn't swimming. That goes double for greywater. Even 'biodegradable' soap has a significant effect on the microbial ecosystem.

[misprof]

If you pack your dry foods into zip locks you can reuse them. I do this all the time at home and on the trail. For short trips (weekend) you can bring them home and wash them. Please do not pour soapy water into the privy esp a composting one. The amount of water in them can stop the composting. Many of them have signs even asking you to pee outside and save the privy for #2.

[DuneElliot]

My apologies for the assumption regarding the privvies...I was under the impression they were same kind of outhouses/toilets we have here at NF campsites in the west that get pumped, just like a septic tank would. I think some are composting, but not most

[Another Kevin]

My apologies for the assumption regarding the privvies...I was under the impression they were same kind of outhouses/toilets we have here at NF campsites in the west that get pumped, just like a septic tank would. I think some are composting, but not most

Nope! The commonest sort of privy on the Eastern trails looks like this (http://hotmamahikers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/NPTrail331-e1394815989150.jpg). A box over a hole in the ground.

A lot of the AT ones are fancier and at least have some sort of outhouse to keep you out of the wind and rain. But a lot are of the 'plain wooden box' variety.

(P.S. For what it's worth, that isn't my picture. But I've left a deposit at that very privy. I remember it because it seemed that on that section of trail, the streams were less than 400 feet apart, so I was having a hard time finding a suitable spot for a cathole. The little sign indicating a side trail and saying '<- TOILET' was a relief!)

[DuneElliot]

Thanks for the clarification...and since that is the case, then no I agree with the sentiment to not throw soap in them.

[DuneElliot]

This is what I was thinking of, and what is common here: http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_MEDIA/stelprdb5284607.jpg

[Cheyou]

Not many places a truck could get in on the AT to pump it out. All the shelter material are usually carried in by workers.

[garlic08]

I'm chuckling about drinking the dishwater. It's a conflict between my wife and me. It all started in a dry camp on a desert hike, where I'd humped the dishwashing water 20 miles and the next water was 10 miles away the next day. I'll be damned if I'm going to dump that water on the ground! It even had a few food particles in it for good measure. Grossed her out, still does just thinking about it.

FBC waste bothers me, but Kevin is right, it's negligible compared to the fossil fuel burned traveling to go hiking. Still I pride myself on minimizing waste in my pack. I once finished a seven-day, 175 mile hike with all my trash fitting into the empty peanut butter jars. I also had a handful of clean ziplocks that came home and got reused.

I buy oats in the box at nearly every town stop, and repackage it into a ziplock or two. Throwing away the box bothers me, but the only place I could find to buy bulk oats on the AT was at the Co-op in Hanover. Sometimes I buy instant mashed potatoes in a large box. I never buy bars, or anything individually wrapped. About the only thing I don't repackage is peanut butter. On a long hike, the packaging waste adds up.

[Coffee]

You know what really bothers me when I return from a hike ... I go from having a quart size ziplock of trash for 5-7 days to filling huge 13 gallon trash bags at least once a week! And I do recycle! What we do in the wilderness pales in comparison to everyday life in terms of carbon footprint.

[Puddlefish]

You know what really bothers me when I return from a hike ... I go from having a quart size ziplock of trash for 5-7 days to filling huge 13 gallon trash bags at least once a week! And I do recycle! What we do in the wilderness pales in comparison to everyday life in terms of carbon footprint.

I'm the opposite. I use far less plastic and trashy trash at home. My staples are bulk dried beans, rice and such, so I might toss out one bag a month. I make my own fresh soups, salad dressings and sauces. Make my own pizza crust and bread. Fresh veggies from the local farm stand. Don't eat anything canned. Don't often drink beer, never drink soda. I compost a whole lot, even though I don't currently have a garden. I'm also not eating dehydrated food at home, which is an energy intensive storage method.

It's not that I'm particularly earthy crunchy, I just like eating real food, and this is the cheapest way to do so.

[Coffee]

I'm the opposite. I use far less plastic and trashy trash at home. My staples are bulk dried beans, rice and such, so I might toss out one bag a month. I make my own fresh soups, salad dressings and sauces. Make my own pizza crust and bread. Fresh veggies from the local farm stand. Don't eat anything canned. Don't often drink beer, never drink soda. I compost a whole lot, even though I don't currently have a garden. I'm also not eating dehydrated food at home, which is an energy intensive storage method.

It's not that I'm particularly earthy crunchy, I just like eating real food, and this is the cheapest way to do so.

That's awesome. My diet isn't that great consisting of mostly packaged or processed goods, mainly from Trader Joe's.

[Dogwood]

First, sorry if this is in the wrong place, I didn't see a LNT forum per-se.

I've been contemplating the impact of using Freezer Bag Cooking (and packing out the used freezer bags obviously) vs the impact of a little ivory soap and water to wash my pot after dinner. Given the assumptions that 1) soapy water used would be disposed of down the privy if possible and disbursed 200' away from a body of water. 2) I'm going to be using some soapy water anyway to clean up (I wear contact lenses) and 3) it isn't likely many trail-heads / trail towns will offer the "plastic bag recycling" necessary to recycle ziplock (generic not brand) freezer bags I'm thinking I'd probably have much less impact washing my dishes each night.

That being said my experience is limited almost to the point of non-existence so I am interested in the thoughts of others on the topic.

How do you minimize the impact of freezer bags if you use them? Am I wrong about recycling opportunities along the AT?

Thanks

Ed

Thank you for your consideration. I would like to observe others doing it more.

I've considered your points for myself. This is what works for me.

Along the AT you'll locate a garbage can or appropriate waste disposal receptacle with regularity so carrying much trash for an unnecessary amount time is an exaggerated misconception. Even in places like the 100 Mile Wilderness you can break up resupply AND vastly, for the most part, dump trash legally at each resupply pt so I don't let that scenario overly concern me. Plus, on the AT I tend to resupply every 3-5 days with my best guess being many ATers can also resupply very 5-7 days on average so with some hindsight into on trail garbage creation and disposal one does not have to accumulate large amounts of trash. About every 5 days my on trail trash entirely easily fits into a sandwich size Ziploc. For those who accumulate food and other trash between longer resupplies I think it makes greater sense to address your concern. 98-99% of all my trash on trail can easily be burnt as AK said. Since all my resupplies aren't mailed I save Ziplocs and rubber bands from a mailed resupply to be used at the the next resupply which is bought on the fly. I don't do FBC. I don't like having to deal with plastic bags containing wet food.

At least 50% of my on trail food is bought from bulk bins. This easily saves on packaging waste at the point of sale compared to buying the incredible amounts of pre packaged highly processed highly refined food/food like products MANY hikers rely! If one is that concerned about packaging waste this is to be considered from that perspective alone! I recycle the bags I get there, as well as rubber bands, and silk gel anti desiccant packets saved from vitamin supplements, other foods, etc. I reduce excess packaging, which IMHO is much better from several perspectives, if I do it at home. Much easier finding acceptable plastic bag recycling at home although if the plastic bags I have are clean many large grocery stores recycle bags by the front door know a days.

Another way I reduce trash on trail and gain better overall energy, health and nutrition is by growing my own sprouts as I hike. It's simple. http://outdoorherbivore.com/trail-sprouts/

This way doesn't come without other waste consequences though. Every mailed resupply box which is about every 3-4th resupply creates cardboard waste recycling, entail carbon usage in transportation and teh cost off mailing. Se
la vie. At least I'm considering things.

AK and Rainman covered the NO SOAP, even if biodegradable soap, in a privy or water source. BUT, there's an assumption a cook pot must be washed out with soap and/or water. I may use water to wash out a Snow Peak MINI Solo TI pot and OR TI spork and dispose of appropriately, perhaps at a grey water site which may be existing or one that I'll designate but water IS NOT ALWAYS needed to effectively clean out cookware on trail. I've used clean beach sand on coastal hikes, desert sand on desert hikes, a small handful of clean sand from the bottom of a dry stream, dried grasses, needled evergreens, handfuls of asst. pebbles/gravel, etc. Then I'll give a wiping and drying with a small microfiber ditty cloth I resalvaged that came from a pr of sunglasses. Another small microfiber lens cloth wipes off my sunglasses, electronic screens, etc. At about every third town stop, which is about every 10 -14 days I sterilize cookware with a few drops of bleach or H202 and throw the microfiber ditty cloth in the laundry possibly rinsing every once in a while on trail as needed. When I do use water to clean my cookware I do as Coffee and Garlic. I want every crumb of nutrient from my on trail food as well as appreciate the additional water. More often than not I drink my cookware water. In some cases I may use a dedicated gray water dump area usually at a CG. Other times I disperse the small amount, about 1/2 cp, grey water on the ground where it doesn't affect drinking water or where others may camp. I personally don't like doing this though as food residues or odors can attract wildlife. In more than 30k U.S. trail miles which includes the entire AT and every geographical U.S. region I've NEVER NEVER NOT ONCE used ANY kind of soap to wash out or clean my own cookware on trail.

I'm all for considering the ecological consequences of our actions but lets not blow things out of proportion especially as it compares to some of our likely other activities.

[Traillium]

Great thinking about impact. Much appreciated

… snip … snip … snip …

Maybe we should start a thread on advanced, lazy-person, easy, and environmentally responsible food prep? I'd love some creative ideas on minimizing food processing and prep impact without too much effort.

Great comments! I certainly am struggling with this topic myself …


Bruce Traillium, brucetraillium.wordpress.com

[Traillium]

Just Bill's procedures seem the most doable for me. Lots of other good stuff from the rest. Thanks!

(A dishwater drinker myself …)


Bruce Traillium, brucetraillium.wordpress.com

[Heliotrope]

Coffee, thanks that's helpful but what about washing your hands. Do you use soap and water or an alcohol based germ killer? (The alcohol stuff doesn't really work well with contact lenses, talk about feeling the burn)

I wear contacts on the trail. I carry a 15 mL micro dropper of bronners soap. I do not wash my hands. I simply use one drop of the soap on my finger tips and work it for 5 seconds or so then rinse with a little water. I only need my finger tips to insert/remove contacts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zelph]

I do not use freezer bags and routinely cook in my Jetboil. I do what many long distance hikers do to clean up. For breakfast, I eat oatmeal first and clean out as much as I can with my spoon. Then I boil water in the same pot for coffee (without cleaning the pot) and drink the coffee. Almost all of the oatmeal residue is gone at that point and I dry it with a bandana. For dinner, I cook my meal in the pot and afterwards add a bit of water and clean out the rest with my fingers and then drink the water. Gross sounding, I know, I know, but it really isn't all that bad. Note that I am meticulous about washing my hands prior to doing any meal preparation; otherwise this could cause illness. Any bacterial residue left in the pot after drying that could cause illness should be killed the next time I boil water.

If you can get past the "gross" factor this is basically zero impact - no wastewater, no freezer bags to dispose of, just small zip locks for the food to be held in prior to cooking.

This is what I've been doing for the past three years on many long hikes.

Here is a great video showing how to clean a pot:

Shug at his finest :-)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwLQcqukSug&amp;list=PL1EA3640A7234EFEB&amp;index= 2

[Coffee]

Here is a great video showing how to clean a pot:

Shug at his finest :-)



LOL - I feel better about my method (identical) now!

[egilbe]

LOL - I feel better about my method (identical) now!

I do the same thing. No wasted calories or wasted, filtered water. I cringe everytime I see someone cook pasta and then dump the excess water out on the ground near where they are camping. I've tried to educate a few fellow hikers I think may be open to suggestion about cooking and cleaning up on the trail.

[MtDoraDave]

The dishwater drinkers vs the non dishwater drinkers is cracking me up. I, too, drink the "dishwater", but my hiking partner can't even watch me do it! lol

[Coffee]

So here's one more LNT issue to consider: Toothpaste. I tend to use a very tiny amount when on trail and I often swallow rather than spit, but not always. On one occasion this year, I had stomach trouble after swallowing a small amount of toothpaste. If I have to spit, I make a small hole away from trail, water, and campsites and fill over with dirt. What does everyone else do?

[Sandy of PA]

Toothpaste is not required for good dental hygiene, swallowing fluoride is a very bad idea. I brush with plain water floss well, no problems. Use baking soda if I want them whiter, on the trail and at home.

[Coffee]

Toothpaste is not required for good dental hygiene, swallowing fluoride is a very bad idea. I brush with plain water floss well, no problems. Use baking soda if I want them whiter, on the trail and at home.

That's what I've heard but I need to brush with at least a little toothpaste to feel clean. Maybe it is a force of habit. I could do without on short trips but not for a long hike. I do always floss, every night.

[nsherry61]

Yep, toothpaste is NOT needed for good dental hygiene. If you are concerned about freshening your breath, carry some small breath mints and you get the best of both worlds, no toothpaste mess (saves weight too) and fresh breath (doesn't save weight).

[nsherry61]

We could drift even further and get into why toilet paper is pointless as well. . . but let's not.

[eabyrd1506]

We could drift even further and get into why toilet paper is pointless as well. . . but let's not.

Thank you for skipping that mess

[Another Kevin]

So here's one more LNT issue to consider: Toothpaste. I tend to use a very tiny amount when on trail and I often swallow rather than spit, but not always. On one occasion this year, I had stomach trouble after swallowing a small amount of toothpaste. If I have to spit, I make a small hole away from trail, water, and campsites and fill over with dirt. What does everyone else do?

The same thing that I do with other greywater. Down a cathole or disperse widely, according to the recommendation of the land manager. If you hear a PTHTHTHTHTH! from me after dinner, it's me getting rid of rinse water from brushing my teeth.

I don't swallow toothpaste.

[rafe]

I don't understand the problem here. My total packaging waste for a three or four day hike fits into a ziploc sandwich bag. Maybe an ounce total weight, if that. But then, I'm not cooking elaborate meals, just the usual hiker junk -- Knorr noodles, ramen, maybe a Mountain House meal, Larabar wrappers, the wrapper from a block of cheese, a stick of pepperoni or salami, and a few used teabags.

[Odd Man Out]

The first reply from Coffee is also what I do. Washing hands with soap would not really be a concern wrt LNT or environmental impact. This assumes you use natural unscented soap and are washing away from a water source - no soap in streams and lakes. I use a sliver of Ivory soap. It is natural, biodegradable, and unscented. The small amount you use dispersed in the woods would not have an impact. Furthermore, it really isn't relevant wrt the cook in pot vs FBC question as I would be washing my hands before I eat regardless of which method I use anyway.

[rocketsocks]

So here's one more LNT issue to consider: Toothpaste. I tend to use a very tiny amount when on trail and I often swallow rather than spit, but not always. On one occasion this year, I had stomach trouble after swallowing a small amount of toothpaste. If I have to spit, I make a small hole away from trail, water, and campsites and fill over with dirt. What does everyone else do?always a spitter, never a swallower.

[Dogwood]

I don't understand the problem here. My total packaging waste for a three or four day hike fits into a ziploc sandwich bag. Maybe an ounce total weight, if that. But then, I'm not cooking elaborate meals, just the usual hiker junk -- Knorr noodles, ramen, maybe a Mountain House meal, Larabar wrappers, the wrapper from a block of cheese, a stick of pepperoni or salami, and a few used teabags.

Your'e forgetting all your used TP and tampon waste too.:D;)

[Just Bill]

I like doc bronners... especially the peppermint in the summer as it leaves you feeling cooler.

But curious with all the ivory soap mentions if any of you are shaving/grating soap?
In scouts we used a tater peeler and bars of ivory to make single serve "bars" so we didn't have to store a wet or partial bar. Seemed to work about right when we shaved the end of the bar (not the length) bout 1/2" wide, tater peel thick and 2-3" if I remember right. It was usually enough to hit your hands, face, and clean up your personal mess kit at the end of the day.

We always used joy/dawn to clean the group cook kits with the old blue sponge... then we'd just boil the sponge every few days to keep it from getting funky. (or mainly to keep one overprotective and mildly anal dad happy, lol)

We tried a cheese grater too but that didn't work out as well (tended to drop/lose/waste it). But I suppose there are those who still like the powdered soaps?

While we're on the subject... anyone here "dehydrate" doc bronners? Or basically concentrate it a bit better... seems like the newer formula is a bit more watery than of old and it's not as easy to get that one drop or two as it used to be. Problem is I'd just cook off all the peppermint oil I so recently touted if I cared to try to fix it by reducing it on the stove.

Anywho... the discussion triggered a memory and I was curious if it was just us wack jobs or others had any similar experiments/experience.

[scrabbler]

I repackage Bronners into a visine bottle, easy to get drops.

[June Quinn]

Hi
I am going to use the freezer bag method also, if no hot water
can always eat cold. I have read that ziplock bags do not release chemicals when burned.

[June Quinn]

Baking soda and coconut oil mixed, makes your teeth feel new!
and kills bacteria

[Time Zone]

Baking soda and coconut oil mixed, makes your teeth feel new!
and kills bacteria

Do you have a citation for that from a reliable source? Because I don't think that's true (about killing bacteria).
w/r/t dental health, toothpaste, etc., I would recommend asking for advice from a board-certified dentist.

[QiWiz]

I always have worried about boiling water leaching chemicals out of plastic bags, so I don't use freezer bags. The trash issue of multiple used bags with some food remnants in them is also a concern. Instead, I cook in and eat out of my pot. I use a cozy after heating water and adding dry ingredients, so that I don't waste fuel on any simmering steps; this also means no food is burned onto the bottom of the pot as water is absorbed by my dry food; the cozy also helps keep the food hot while I eat it. When done, I never use soap. Instead, I swish a small amount of water around and resuspend any food particles with my spoon and/or finger and drink the "soup". If need be I do this more than once until the pot looks clean. I dry it with a bandana and put it away. This bandana I keep with my food but periodically I wash it out and dry it.

I've been doing this for >15 years over >2500 trail miles with no ill effects. Just an alternative to consider and try if you like.

[dzierzak]

Hi
I am going to use the freezer bag method also, if no hot water
can always eat cold. I have read that ziplock bags do not release chemicals when burned.

when BURNED all plastics release chemicals. not so when adding hot water.

[peakbagger]

Burning a ziplock bag on a hot fire is the equivalent to burning any fossil fuel which like plastics and wood also release chemicals. Not so with PVC which puts out dioxins and other nasties. Even though its quite easy to tell the difference between polyethylene and PVC (polyvinyl chloride) many folks seem to confuse the difference either out of ignorance or intentionally. Burn a wet ziplock full of goop on a set of coals and its going to smell like burning plastic just like burning wood at too low of temp is going to be a stinky experience. Use common sense and its not a significant environmental issue, feel free to do if for some other reason but the typical hiker has far worse environmental sins to worry about like turning on a light bulb supplied with coal fired power.

[jellyfish]

US Forest Service on burning trash (including plastic bags): http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf04232327/pdf04232327dpi300.pdf

Pack it out.

Personally, I wouldn't cook meals in a ziploc. They are not designed to withstand hot temperatures. Some years ago I contacted the company about this and they advised against it.


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[rocketsocks]

You won't find floating oatmeal in my coffee. I use a drop or two on Doc Bonners and broadcast.

[rocketsocks]

I also freezer bag cook and pack out.

[rocketsocks]

...and not for nuthin' once the ground was so froze I carried a #2 30 miles to its final rest place, but not because I was being eco...I forgot it was there.

[Colter]

My eating gear consists of my pot/bowl and a spoon. I scrape my pot/bowl as clean as possible and lick my spoon clean.

The next time I use my pot/bowl it will be full of boiling water which I will stir with my spoon.

To my way of thinking, boiling water is safer than dish washing. For me this system is the easiest and most environmentally friendly method of cooking. No gray water, no used plastic bags.

[egilbe]

I tried freezer bag cooking, but cleaning the bag was worse than cleaning the pot. I can reuse my bags for storing food, if I dont cook in them. Cleaning my pot is a very minor inconvenience compared to throwing away soiled freezer bags after use.

[Secondmouse]

Another way I reduce trash on trail and gain better overall energy, health and nutrition is by growing my own sprouts as I hike. It's simple. http://outdoorherbivore.com/trail-sprouts/



I'm kinda fascinated by this, what a cool idea!

can you give more details? maybe another thread?..

[Venchka]

I'm kinda fascinated by this, what a cool idea!

can you give more details? maybe another thread?..

Back in the Stone Age, before the Internet, we grew our own sprouts at home. I'm sure the Internet is chock full of information on sprout growing.
Wayne


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[Traillium]

I tried freezer bag cooking, but cleaning the bag was worse than cleaning the pot. I can reuse my bags for storing food, if I dont cook in them. Cleaning my pot is a very minor inconvenience compared to throwing away soiled freezer bags after use.

+1.

Moi même.

[Secondmouse]

Back in the Stone Age, before the Internet, we grew our own sprouts at home. I'm sure the Internet is chock full of information on sprout growing.
Wayne


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I was asking Dogwood...

[DownEaster]

I tried freezer bag cooking, but cleaning the bag was worse than cleaning the pot. I can reuse my bags for storing food, if I dont cook in them. Cleaning my pot is a very minor inconvenience compared to throwing away soiled freezer bags after use.
+1

In town you can resupply your favorite staples (oats, rice, noodles, ...) and reuse the same bags for the same purpose. (Just make sure you never put dirty hands inside those bags!) If you can buy in bulk that's great; if not, you can often find places to recycle. Peel the plastic off your Quaker Oats cylinder and the rest goes into the mixed paper bin. I always look for the small box of Idahoan potato flakes (cardboard is recyclable) and split the contents into multiple bags; I avoid the foil pouches. I can also add powdered Nido Fortificada, parsley flakes, and whatever else I want to make the potatoes suit my taste. If you can save weight using freezer bags for food storage (rather than for cooking) I don't see any reason why you wouldn't want to. Most food packaging stays in town; the containers that go on my back are mainly reusable zipper bags. Lots of times on previous hikes when I dumped my trash bag it only had used dental floss and Ramen wrappers (lighter than freezer bags) in it. (I must admit these days I accumulate more trash, including powdered cheese packets now I'm past being sick of mac & cheese. Also wet loose tea since I discovered Lipton Yellow Label.)

I disagree with the claim that you don't need soap for cleaning your cooking gear. If you're adding butterfat/olive oil to maintain your calorie intake, you really do want to use soap to remove the grease. The only thing that smells worse than a through-hiker is the through-hiker's rancid cook pot. Once a day you might time things to dump your soapy water into your cathole before filling it in; soaking the TP helps it start decomposing.

[Venchka]

I'm not reading 4 pages to find out if anyone else agrees with me.
I wasted good money finding out that I can't stomach Knorr and Bear Creek products and FBC.
I learned how to wash and sterilize dishes and utensils ages ago.
I wonder if there is a correlation between norovirus (sp?) and FBC? It's plausible.
Wayne


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[V Eight]

I wonder if there is a correlation between norovirus (sp?) and FBC? It's plausible.


Open bag add hot/boiling water, wait, eat, put empty FB bag in your trash bag, done.

I really don't see how FBC could contribute to getting or spreading Norovirus, more than pot cooking.

I could see pot cooking contributing to the spread, if the pot's wash water was not disposed of correctly.

What am i missing?


V8

[capehiker]

I started cooking in my pot again last summer. I didn't like the way pasta/rice cooked in a freezer bag and I realized using a little extra fuel to simmer a few more minutes was not the end of the world. Pasta and rice cooked better and I started to actually attempt cooking again. How I clean depends on location and what I am cooking but I make sure to keep things in compliance with LNT or minimizing impact. I have done the cathole dirty water technique and I have discarded dirty water in an active fire ring. It really depends on the situation. I rarely use soap when cleaning my pot. Usually after my dinner I boil some more water to make hot tea so I'm getting some sanitizing that way.

With regards to brushing teeth, I am not sure if it's been updated but I was taught in Scouts 30 years ago when spitting out toothpaste, you want to spray it as wide as possible. The term used was "atomizing" your spit. I still do that to this day.

[DownEaster]

I really don't see how FBC could contribute to getting or spreading Norovirus, more than pot cooking.
...
What am i missing?
I think the problem is from dirty hands scraping the insides of the freezer bag, then the contamination being consumed in subsequent spoonfuls. A cooking pot has rigid sides that won't collapse on the eater's hands, plus it isn't nearly as tall as a bag so you don't have to reach in as far. Tired, hungry hikers tend to focus more on food than on hygiene, and bags are inherently messier to eat from than rigid containers.

[Deacon]

I think the problem is from dirty hands scraping the insides of the freezer bag, then the contamination being consumed in subsequent spoonfuls. A cooking pot has rigid sides that won't collapse on the eater's hands, plus it isn't nearly as tall as a bag so you don't have to reach in as far. Tired, hungry hikers tend to focus more on food than on hygiene, and bags are inherently messier to eat from than rigid containers.

Gotta disagree with this.

A quart size ziploc fits perfectly in a plastic caldera cone screw canister (as sold at Traildesigns.com) making it a lined pot. Any long handled spoon reaches to the bottom with dirtying hands.

When done, just pull out the bag and discard. No cleanup.

[Connie]

If soap has phosphates, it will definitely kill bacteria that break down what is in privies.

The other problem of soap used while backpacking is having sufficient rinse water 200' from the water source. The residual "soap" can give you diarrhea.

If you must, use a biodegradable soap like CampSuds.

I prefer to have a little extea boiled water than I need for fb cooking and a hot drink, if the pan size allows.

I usually simply scrape out the residual food with a GSI mini scraper, or Snow Peak combination Scraper and Spork, or GSI long handle scraper, wipe with a net bag cut from a garlic net bag, then rinse with that left over hot water.

No matter what my cooking gear, I have a scraper in my cook kit.

Others like the cut scrap of a net bag for garlic, however I would rather use the scraper as an eating utensil rather than rinse food bits off the scrap of a net bag for garlic. I do not like leaving the food scrapings on the ground.

[Connie]

The quart size ziploc fits perfectly inside my JetBoil Zip, after cooled down while it has been cooking inside a cozy.

It will work just fine with any 3 3/4" or 10 cm diameter opening cookpot.

[Uncle Joe]

PackIt Gourmet meals are made to be steeped in their own bag.

[ShelterLeopard]

I just cook everything in my pot, and I don't use soap to clean until I get to a town for a resupply. In winter I scrub it with snow, all other times I just use water and a bandana (pine needles also work well). Next time you boil water in your pot, it'll get nice and sanitized. :)