Down jacket - why?

[erdenscheibe]

Hi guys!

I am absolutely new here, planning a thru-hike starting aroung March 8th and am currently in the phase of putting my gear together.
It seems that there is general consensus to bring a down jacket. From what I understand this is used for evenings/mornings in camp. But I am now a big fan of down, so I was wondering if some of you have an alternative for me (I don't count going in the sleeping bag early as an alternative :p). I do understand that the evenings in march are gonna be cold, but is there any way around buying a down jacket? If not, I am not totally reluctant to take a down jacket... better than to be cold every night.
Besides that, I am planning on bringing long underwear, a shirt, a fleece sweater and obviously a wind/rain jacket.

Would be happy for your suggestions! Thanks in advance!

[Uncle Pecos]

patagonia nano puff is synthetic rather than down

[Offshore]

I'd suggest a jacket with a synthetic insulation = a Patagonia nanopuff is just one example. Forgive me if this comes off sounding like a smart a-s, but its hard to tell from your question if your issue is with down itself (ethics, etc.) or the idea of carrying a jacket of any type. People usually start and end with a jacket, sending it home for the mid portion or bouncing it ahead to where they'll be when they think they'll need it again.

[Tipi Walter]

Some synthetics are very nice, like the Patagonia thermal weight hoody top coupled with a good fleece jacket. Down clothing does not have to be carried if preferred.

March 8 is winter for the most part and so my standard load always includes a few overkill down items to get me thru some long winter nights---and around camp. Down parka, down pants, down mittens. Nothing warmer or lighter. My WM Puma sleeping bag is rated to -15F and keeps me happy and alive for however long I'm out. Would I want to carry a -15F synthetic bag? Nope.

[erdenscheibe]

Forgive me if this comes off sounding like a smart a-s, but its hard to tell from your question if your issue is with down itself (ethics, etc.) or the idea of carrying a jacket of any type.

Sorry - should have been clearer. I'd say it's a little bit of both :o
If possible I would like to avoid an extra piece "just" for camp - on the other hand I do know how cold spring evenings and mornings can be, so I guess I have to bring something. And if I have to bring something, I would prefer synthetic over down, but this is not set in stone, if down has some huge advantages. So your answer works for both my questions/issues. Thanks :D

[mark schofield]

REI Revel Cloud is basically a Nano Puff knockoff, but cheaper.

[Tipi Walter]

Go for plan B and use your sleeping bag in camp to stay warm . . . as you won't be hiking in your down items anyway, unless they are very thin. I take overkill down clothing because I want to stay out for the duration in all conditions without bailing to a town when Miss Nature decides to kick my butt. She can surprise you. She can go from 60F down to -30F if she wants and I best be prepared.

[erdenscheibe]

Thanks for the input.

[MuddyWaters]

Because its warm and light.

Fleece is warm, but really bulky and heavy in thick weights
Synthetic.....dont last. Good for a hiking layer and little warmth, it cant touch down

Wrapping up in bag is OK, but ever try to cook while doing that?
Walk half mile radius ound trip to get water?
Run to privy at night?

Yeah, give it a shot. Let us know how it worked out.

[Tipi Walter]

Thanks for the input.

Since you're from Austria you may be interested in Christine Thuermer, the German Tourist. She gets out more than anyone I know.

http://christine-on-big-trip.blogspot.com/

Had the good luck of running into her on the BMT one cold winter day---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/18-Days-in-the-Big-Frog/i-6PnSZpS/0/L/TRIP%20141%20040-L.jpg

[garlic08]

Ethical considerations aside, I would definitely trade the fleece sweater for a lighter synthetic jacket and high quality down vest.

I packed a down vest for my April start, used it only a couple of times, but I would never repeat that hike without it. I carried it mainly as a back-up to my down bag, in case that got compromised somehow. But I was surprised at the vehemence of the late spring storms in the Southern Appalachians--do not underestimate the possible conditions there. The extra down was very welcome at times. It may keep you from spending time and money in some expensive towns, waiting out a storm, as it did me.

The down vest was worth its cost in lodging alone. Not to mention having Smoky Mountain Park all to myself in prime thru-hiking season, an experience I'll never forget.

[Tipi Walter]

I'm a big proponent of the Down Vest. It was part of my usual load for over 20 years and it's amazing how warm a vest is, whether in camp or while moving. Now I've traded in the vest idea with arms---a good down jacket vs a parka (which can get heavy and expensive.) But for sitting in camp at 0F nothing beats a good overkill parka and down pants.

[Spirit Walker]

I did both AT thruhikes with a fleece jacket, but it was a heavier fleece (300 weight). I started around 1 April and still had snow fall (in May) and ice and a few very cold nights. As others have said, you need something warm for cooking or fetching water or just hanging out talking to people. It also helps on the really cold nights when your 20 degree bag isn't quite warm enough. Or the days when you walk in all day rain and then can't get warm once you stop moving.

[nsherry61]

If your concern is carrying extra weight for in-camp insulation and you don't want to wrap yourself in your sleeping bag, sleep in your warm jacket. In other words, don't carry extra insulation. Carry a lighter, less warm bag and think of your insulating jacket whether down, synthetic puffy or heavy fleece as part of your sleep system that you can wear round camp easier than a sleeping bag.

[Tipi Walter]

I did both AT thruhikes with a fleece jacket, but it was a heavier fleece (300 weight). I started around 1 April and still had snow fall (in May) and ice and a few very cold nights. As others have said, you need something warm for cooking or fetching water or just hanging out talking to people. It also helps on the really cold nights when your 20 degree bag isn't quite warm enough. Or the days when you walk in all day rain and then can't get warm once you stop moving.

Short of falling into a river and getting submerged, all my geese stay dry no matter what and for however long I am out. Your highlighted quote really touches on the fact of winter backpacking. "Can't get warm once you stop" is a given for long-term winter backpackers. Some thoughts:

** Setting up camp fast in wet clothes while shaking like a leaf is never fun. Hands are numb wooden blocks and can't unzip stuff or even unclip the hipbelt.
** All effort MUST be made to set up the shelter no matter what.
** Once shelter is up THEN I remove my wet clothing and get into dry. "Deep hypothermia" stays with a person for a long time, at least two hours, so the warm dry clothing is the beginning of getting thru it.
** Since all goose items are dry, I know no matter how bad it is I will survive the night.

TWO RULES
** If it is raining and you're numb and it's 30F, stay in your wet clothing while setting up camp. (Should be wearing your rain jacket anyway as you were hiking to conserve heat). After tent is up then peel off the wet stuff and get into dry. If you try and put on your dry clothing before the tent is up you'll get it wet in the cold rain, duh.
** If it is cold and snowing at 0F, dump your pack in camp and put on warmth layers (down parka) over your body before setting up the tent.

[Tipi Walter]

If your concern is carrying extra weight for in-camp insulation and you don't want to wrap yourself in your sleeping bag, sleep in your warm jacket. In other words, don't carry extra insulation. Carry a lighter, less warm bag and think of your insulating jacket whether down, synthetic puffy or heavy fleece as part of your sleep system that you can wear round camp easier than a sleeping bag.

This sounds like a good idea except for anyone who has worn a fleece or down jacket inside a zipped up mummy bag. Some people might like the cocooning effect, the constriction. Not me. (Another reason why I dislike bag liners).

I go the other route: Carry an overkill subzero bag and it can be used as a unzipped quilt/blanket 80% of the time and zipped into a mummy on -10F nights. Once "mummified" I am in minimal baselayers tops and bottoms so I sleep much better unencumbered.

[One Half]

Check out some trail journals where people were getting snowed on in May. You will likely decide to bring a jacket.

[KDogg]

I carried my down jacket for the entire trail. If I wasn't wearing it I was using it as a pillow. Most folks that I was around had their puffy for the whole trail too. In April there were at least four times when I wore my down jacket (and everything else I had) at night in my sleeping bag. Yep..it was that cold.

[Bati]

I used an expedition weight polypro or capilene top and a goretex jacket. Combined with the same for the bottom, and an expedition weight balaclave, and I survived a miserably cold trip.
Before down vests and jackets were made with waterproof material, polypro was the standard (and before that, wool.) They still work.

[Feral Bill]

On a recent trip, my son brought a fairly thick down parka, which traveled in and outside pack pocket. He took it out for all but the shortest rests, and enjoyed the warmth greatly. I had a thick "furry" fleece, which I used in camp. Both worked out fine for fall in the Cascades.
For winter, I always bring a down layer. If constriction bothers you, you can drape it over your bag for extra warmth.

[Slo-go'en]

The down "Puffy" has pretty much become ubiquitous hiker attire over the last few years. There are plenty of synthetic options available at much less cost then down, but there is a weight and bulk penalty for using synthetic. But you gain somewhat better damp weather resistance using synthetic.

Except for my sleeping bag, I have always gone synthetic for the warm layer. But man, I'm getting more and more jealous of those hikers wearing a nice puffy down jacket on a crisp morning or evening.

[jj dont play]

I used a Northface Quarter zip thermoball. Started mid April and barely had need for it, actually would have been fine without it. Sent it home at Harper's Ferry due to not using it in a long time. Got it back for the whites to play it safe but didn't need it so sent it back home again after the whites.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dogwood]

Hi guys!

I am absolutely new here, planning a thru-hike starting aroung March 8th and am currently in the phase of putting my gear together.
It seems that there is general consensus to bring a down jacket. From what I understand this is used for evenings/mornings in camp. But I am now a big fan of down, so I was wondering if some of you have an alternative for me (I don't count going in the sleeping bag early as an alternative :p). I do understand that the evenings in march are gonna be cold, but is there any way around buying a down jacket? If not, I am not totally reluctant to take a down jacket... better than to be cold every night.
Besides that, I am planning on bringing long underwear, a shirt, a fleece sweater and obviously a wind/rain jacket.

Would be happy for your suggestions! Thanks in advance!


Sorry - should have been clearer. I'd say it's a little bit of both :o
If possible I would like to avoid an extra piece "just" for camp - on the other hand I do know how cold spring evenings and mornings can be, so I guess I have to bring something. And if I have to bring something, I would prefer synthetic over down, but this is not set in stone, if down has some huge advantages. So your answer works for both my questions/issues. Thanks :D

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Before you approach the subject of down verse synthetic or jacket or vest, blah blah blah...

1) What range of temps and weather do you expect to experience with a March 8 start date ongoing into possibly late April/early May? I think you might be underestimating how cold, wet, and snowy it can be and how wide the weather can fluctuate through April in the Appalachian Mountains. Factor in wind chill factors in March and you're could easily be looking at the teens in fahrenheit possibly even single digits. Add in icy rain and/or snow and you have hypothermic conditions. By saying this, "it seems that there is general consensus to bring a down jacket; from what I understand this is used for evenings/mornings in camp", and, again, "I do know how cold spring evenings and mornings can be, so I guess I have to bring something", it seems you expect to only need warm clothes/jacket/vest whatever in camp and in the evenings and morning. Not so my friend! You WILL need warm clothes to hike in too with your start date!

2) I certainly understand a desire to reduce redundancy in your apparel layering for in camp but until I know we're both on the same realistic conditions page you will face AND I know what you plan on hiking in for insulation/warmth with upside versatility on warmer fairer sunnier days I can't, and for the life of me I don't understand how anyone else can either, suggest what you should be bringing to wear in camp knowing this is your goal, "if possible I would like to avoid an extra piece "just" for camp."

PLEASE, consider that with your March 8 start date you will be in Great Smoky Mountains National Park(GSMNP) going over high elevations, actually crossing the highest pt of the entire AT, during about the third week of March.

From the GSMNP site:

Spring
March through May: Spring brings with it unpredictable weather. Changes occur rapidly - sunny skies can yield to snow flurries in a few hours. March is the month with the most radical changes; snow can fall at any time during the month, particularly in the higher elevations.

You would be wise to heed historical avg temps and weather for Clingmans Dome(higher elevations).

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/weather.htm

[egilbe]

The big advantage down has over synthetics is warmth to weight ratio and down compresses better and lasts longer. Only you can answer if a warmer, lighter-weight, smaller packing jacket that could save your life is a better choice over a bulkier, heavier, almost as warm jacket, that could save your life.


For the record, I hike in synthetics and wool and wear down "just in camp".

[Leo L.]

I carry a down jacket on all trips where the weather is uncertain and temperature might drop to freezing or below.
Nothing better than the extra warmth of the jacket when idling in camp after a strenous day.
If the weather is cold, I keep on the down jacket until I'm in the bag, then take off the jacket and stuff it into the empty Thermarest stuff sack, thus providing a perfect pillow.
In the morning the first thing I do is putting on the down jacket, which is still warm from the body heat.
No actual hiking in the down stuff if possible.

[Bronk]

I don't like the idea of down on the AT simply because in the spring it is usually so wet. Pretty much everything you own is going to be damp and mildew smelling after a couple of weeks. Down doesn't work so well when its wet. So I wouldn't get hung up on the idea that most people carry down, I don't remember seeing a lot of people with down.

[KDogg]

You don't hike in down. You'll be moving and generating heat. If it was a cold rain then we wore a mid layer with our rain gear over it. in a warm rain we didn't put any other layers on. When it is raining at camp then you get your water, put up your tent or get in the shelter and then put on your down. We never had a problem with our down getting wet. Always have a set of clothing for hiking and a set for camp. The set for camp should always be dry and never be worn for hiking. When you get up in the morning, put your wet clothes back on and get moving. Don't make the mistake of hiking in your dry camp clothes or you will end up with two sets of wet clothes.

[garlic08]

... So I wouldn't get hung up on the idea that most people carry down, I don't remember seeing a lot of people with down.

You never would have seen my down, since it was literally never outside my pack or tent in harsh weather. It was for sleeping only. I found it extremely effective on the AT, with some care ventilating the tent. Lay it out in the sun while eating lunch on a nice day and it'll stay more fresh (relatively speaking for a thru hiker, of course). Launder it at the end of the season, if needed.

In my experience, mildew needs days of moisture and darkness. With some care and experience, that can nearly always be avoided.

(Speaking of cleanliness, that's a great argument for a quilt. Since you never lay on it, it stays cleaner, and it's simple to expose the whole thing to UV on a sunny day.)

[Tipi Walter]

High quality goose down is where it's at. Ask anyone with a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering bag or jacket or vest. It's remarkably, magically, warm. It becomes "a sleeping bag with arms" which will make the lowest temps enjoyable. In camp of course. No one hikes in this stuff unless they're pulling a winter ascent of Denali.

Like Kdogg and Garlics says, you'll never see us in this stuff while we're hiking because it's all inside our packs and dry. I have a couple rules while backpacking: Keep moving, Stay alive, Keep my down dry.

My definition of backpacking is this: Managing Discomfort. And goose down goes a long way in achieving this.

[Hikingjim]

down jacket allows you to go lighter on your sleeping bag/quilt. Why not have a bit of portable feather for those cold nights.

As another option, something like north face thermoball (synthetic) can work because it's a bit more error proof. Some hikers find out the hard way that you can end up with ridiculous amounts of condensation if you're not setup right, and that will send you straight to town if you soak your sleeping gear.

[Starchild]

I consider it primarily part of my emergency kit for warmth - as in set up the tent, take off wet clothes, put on the warm dry stuff like the puffy and get into the bag. For this use using it as an extra layer of warmth while sleeping and in a dry camp is a great 2nd purpose that does not interfere with the primary. As for the restrictive feeling when sleeping, yes it does, but so does the mummy bag zipped up under the same conditions.

As for hiking in them. I would say it's not that one does not hike with them, it's one is very careful and selective if that happens - as it is sleepware and emergency clothes. But early morning cold is it not uncommon for hikers to start off wearing the down till they get warmed up by hiking, but only if it's dry out and before any sweating.

In another hiking forum the subject of fleece for hiking, down for camp/sleeping came up. One dude said that he did the opposite, down while hiking fleece in camp. Poor dude just didn't get it, hopefully he is OK.

[Secondmouse]

down is lighter, packs tighter, and retains its loft for many more years than any current synthetic.

20 years or more of life is not unusual for a good down garment. synthetic normally starts going off after a few years of normal use, particularly if it's been carried compressed for any length of time. down is only more expensive if you neglect to amortize the cost over several years.

for people who really use their gear, down doesn't cost, it pays...

[Dogwood]

Hi guys!

I am absolutely new here, planning a thru-hike starting aroung March 8th and am currently in the phase of putting my gear together.
It seems that there is general consensus to bring a down jacket. From what I understand this is used for evenings/mornings in camp. But I am now a big fan of down, so I was wondering if some of you have an alternative for me (I don't count going in the sleeping bag early as an alternative :p). I do understand that the evenings in march are gonna be cold, but is there any way around buying a down jacket? If not, I am not totally reluctant to take a down jacket... better than to be cold every night.
Besides that, I am planning on bringing long underwear, a shirt, a fleece sweater and obviously a wind/rain jacket.

Would be happy for your suggestions! Thanks in advance!

What is your shirt construction? LS, I guess? Materials? Wt, in regards to warmth and then wt in regards to ounces? Button down? Full zip?

What wt is your fleece i.e.; 100, 200 or 300? Does it have a full zip or is it a pull over with a part zip?

The synthetic verse down debate isn't as clear cut as it may have been. There are a wider range of options to possibly consider with compositions of down/synthetic, combinations of hydrophobic down and quality shell fabrics offering greater water resistance. https://www.rei.com/product/898993/rei-stratocloud-vest-mens

What you may also consider factoring in for your insulation options is this is within context of the AT and your anticipated town stops with it's abundant possibilities of well analyzed town stops with routine opportunities to dry stuff out. With Feb and early March NOBO start dates you may find yourself desiring/needing to go into town more often than assumed. LOL. I'd even bet on that happening.

FWIW, and although I own several down and synthetic vests and jackets, synthetic insulation is NOT as warm when wet as often marketing claims! So whether you choose down, hydrophobic down, synthetic, consider shell fabrics that offer more protection to your down or some combination either way you have to protect the insulation's thermal efficiency. You're not expecting to fall into a river on a remote long distance backcountry Alaska expedition. You have to protect your insulation in some way. Best to understand how to do that first. Then, go from there accessing what will serve you and your hike's conditions. I think it's similar to sleeping bag insulation choices and sleep systems.

I surely hope you review the avg high and low temps for high elevation at Clingman's Dome in the link previously provided. You should note the avg highs and lows for March are 10* F COLDER than for April so YOU YOU SHOULD take that into account when others are offering weather and layering opinions for their NOBO AT thru-hikes which started in April! It seems they aren't doing that. YOU SHOULD also NOTE the historical monthly avg snowfall is 5" for April and MORE THAN 5X that for March at 26 inches. Some big swings to take note of. You should also NOTE these are only avgs meaning there are going to be days warmer and colder than the average.

It may be wet from rain and/or sleet or wet east coast snow and/or slushy on the ground and in the trees where it's in the low twenties maybe/very likely a few times near single digits possibly even during the day! You may have clear crisp sunny windy days in March in hiking temps of 50-near 70* F. Depending on your fleece that may not be enough warmth on the move with even a LS shirt as your base/midlayer. Under your system you're forcing yourself to go to a rain jacket over the top which may not be necessary in cold crisp non wet non windy sub 40* F conditions for warmth. Yes, this can be done in those cold conditions but there might be other layering approaches for your March 8 start date and what you said your goals are.

Here's where a med wt insulation vest can work. On the coldest days you have a vest, fleece, and LS shirt that can be worn as a system possibly on the move at a moderate less strenuous less gung pace or mixed and matched for in camp so it makes it not as necessary to have separate torso camp clothing.....which is your goal. You have the rain wind/rain jacket, you need a real rain jacket, at least for in the beginning of your NOBO, to add to that 4 part layering system if need be. Here again you should consider what others have said. If you like sitting around for long periods at stops and in camps, walking around town in cold conditions, etc perhaps a dedicated jacket suits you better. And, a vest as not vest and a jacket is not a jacket. There are all sorts of features, weights, insulation/warmth capacities, etc. With a vest it's wise to consider warmth for the extremities, which you should be doing with a March 8 start date anyhow. i.e.; beanie, gloves, warm socks(TWO PR! for your start date), hoods and pockets on jackets, vests, etc.

FWIW, as one who is much more of a hiker than a camper when I stop moving for the day I'm in my sleeping bag and shelter within 15-20 mins so I have less need for a dedicated heavy jacket for in camp as a quilt/sleeping bag and shelter and ground pad serve as warming insulation.

FWIW, and although the assumption is no one hikes in down unless "they are hiking Denali", I hike in a med wt down or synthetic vest in cold conditions down to teens *F and up to 55*F with regularity on clear crisp days. The trick is in how it's layered and with what accessories and what I'm wearing on my bottom half. And those pieces in my kit have only been chosen because beforehand I've rightly, hopefully rightly, know myself, know what kind of backpacking approaches I will mostly assume for the current hike, my skills, and the range of weather conditions.

[MtDoraDave]

This has been an educational thread. Now I get it.

I bought two sets of micro fleece thermals; one medium and one large. As well as a tight fitting base layer (tights).
Last March (20th or so) I was in the Smokies when a nor'easter came through and dropped 6 inches of snow and the temps were approximately 15 degrees... and there's always wind.
I was wearing my base layer, both layers of micro fleece, my hiking pants, AND my rain pants and jacket - as well as beanie hat and gloves ... and was still shaking from being cold trying to cook dinner.

It looks like a down jacket and pants are in my future, as they are warmer, lighter, and pack smaller than the fleece.

It's only more expensive if you don't buy it first. Try to save money, and end up buying it later - that's what's expensive. :)

[Tipi Walter]

Last March (20th or so) I was in the Smokies when a nor'easter came through and dropped 6 inches of snow and the temps were approximately 15 degrees... and there's always wind.
I was wearing my base layer, both layers of micro fleece, my hiking pants, AND my rain pants and jacket - as well as beanie hat and gloves ... and was still shaking from being cold trying to cook dinner.
:)

I can always tell under-equipped winter backpackers when they stand around camp in their rain gear---jackets and pants---when it isn't raining or snowing. Such shells are their last line of defense against the cold---when in fact they should of brought more layers and preferably down jackets and pants. Depending on a rain shell for warmth when in camp is a poor substitute for geese.

Over the years I have formulated my clothing defcon levels---is it so cold you're wearing everything you brought???

THE DEFCON LEVELS

Defcon Level One: T-shirt and shorts
Two: Shorts, silk turtleneck (or baselayer) and t-shirt over the turtleneck

Three: Shorts and thermal tops or t-shirt with rain jacket
Four: Thermal tops with hat and gloves and rain pants (or shorts over merino/capilene leggings)

Five: Thermal bottoms, pants, thermal tops/wool shirt and down jacket
Six: Everything and the rain jacket possibly or with the down parka(level 5 includes the hats/gloves)

Seven: In the sleeping bag with balaclava, watch hat and double socks
Eight: In the sleeping bag with hot water bottles

Nine: Rescue by helicopter or fleeing on foot
Defcon Level Ten: Death by frostbite or hypothermia

The first 4 levels are hiking only, the last 6 are basecamp levels as it would be almost impossible to backpack in the down jacket no matter how cold it got. The wool shirt is a transition layer, it's the demarcation between cold and cool and is rarely worn while backpacking but is always worn in camp either alone over the thermal tops or underneath the down jacket.

Defcon Levels are the stages of warm layers every backpacker thinks about, they exist in the back of the mind as a security zone giving the backpacker leeway up or down in all conditions.

Summer usually does not concern itself with Defcon Levels, in fact when it is hot many items are not even taken out such as the rain pants, the down jacket, the second hat and the gloves. Hiking in the rain is allowed and though one can still get chilled and soaked the thermal top and the rain jacket usually is all that is needed to solve the problem.

[Dogwood]

Nine: Rescue by helicopter or fleeing on foot
Defcon Level Ten: Death by frostbite or hypothermia

:D

[Dogwood]

Deacon Level 11: burning your insulating clothing to stay warm and for signaling the helicopter

[Tipi Walter]

Deacon Level 11: burning your insulating clothing to stay warm and for signaling the helicopter

True. Or bringing a propane torch while wearing blue jeans and waiting for rescue while smoking packs of cigarettes. (This actually happened to three backpackers from South Carolina on a trip into the Smokies during a snowstorm).

[gbolt]

Tipi - That is an awesome post. Belongs in a magazine article. I plan on creating my own Defcon Level List with the personal clothing gear that I own - in order to insure what I am packing,depending on the expected temperature and conditions, is appropriate. Therefore, the propane torch can be replaced by a lighter for the cigarettes! :D

[rocketsocks]

Are goose feathers edible?

[Dogwood]

Goose Feathers could be the name of a outdoor company specializing in down apparel and sleeping bags OR a trail name? Someone in China is reading this and saying hmmm?

[Dogwood]

True. Or bringing a propane torch while wearing blue jeans and waiting for rescue while smoking packs of cigarettes. (This actually happened to three backpackers from South Carolina on a trip into the Smokies during a snowstorm).

I didn't say it. It wasn't me. I may have been thinking it though. :D

I've done so many bone headed pinheaded things though. It may seem like I'm acting like I have all my shart together when in actuality most of what I communicate is from learning from bad decisions. For example I used a heavy Hillerberg tent in summer and carried enough supplies and food to equip a small army or trail crew at one time.

I couldn't resist. :D

[CalebJ]

I've done so many bone headed pinheaded things though. It may seem like I'm acting like I have all my shart together when in actuality most of what I communicate is from learning from bad decisions. For example I used a heavy Hillerberg tent in summer and carried enough supplies and food to equip a small army or trail crew at one time.
I started on the BMT in 2014 without a trail tested waterproof system to cover my bivy. Woke up essentially floating in my sleeping bag in the middle of a spectacular storm. Tossed everything in the pack and hiked 20+ miles through the night as the storm raged on and hitch hiked out to Blue Ridge, GA the next morning so I could spread my gear out and let it dry. Stupid learning experience. Should have taken gear I knew, instead of trusting that my new system worked. Not a lesson I'll soon forget.

[Tipi Walter]

I didn't say it. It wasn't me. I may have been thinking it though. :D

I've done so many bone headed pinheaded things though. It may seem like I'm acting like I have all my shart together when in actuality most of what I communicate is from learning from bad decisions. For example I used a heavy Hillerberg tent in summer and carried enough supplies and food to equip a small army or trail crew at one time.

I couldn't resist. :D

Yes, I've done all these things but at least I haven't yet caused several forest rangers to get out of their beds in frigid temps and spend all night rescuing my butt. See---

WHAT AM I READING?
A bunch of stuff and here is an example: A piece by Holly Kays titled "Into The Wild: A Winter Rescue---Rangers Trek into Frigid Snowy Darkness to Save Hikers" and it can be found here---


http://smokymountainnews.com/aae/item/12325-a-winter-rescue-rangers-trek-into-frigid-snowy-darkness-to-save-hikers


** The event began on Jan 2 2014 in the GSMNP.
** Cold and snow causes problems for 3 backpackers at Mollie's Ridge shelter on the AT.

** One backpacker has only a 60F rated bag. Say what? Does anyone even make a 60 degree bag? And oh guys, it's a January trip.
** The victims are Jonathan Dobbins 21, Shawn Hood 32, and Steven White 28, all from South Carolina.

** They were on a 10 day backpacking trip.
** The hell began (and rescue initiated) on their first night of the trip. Wow, they gotta bail on the very first night?

** The rescue swings into action late in the night of Jan 2.
** The rescue involved 22 Park people.

** Ranger Phil Basak said "We knew that people weren't able to feel legs, toes, that they haven't felt them in a few hours." How is this possible and not already be dead from hypothermia?

** By 3:30am the rangers were at Fontana to begin the rescue. I wonder if the rangers used snowshoes??

** It was 16F on Jan 3 predawn hours.
** Snow on the ridge was 6-8 inches with 24 inch drifts. Welcome to my world, the world of Uncle Fungus.

** At 6am the head ranger decides to bring in a helicopter.
** A Black Hawk responds from the national guard.

** By dawn it was minus 5 degrees. Is this number ambient or wind chill??

** Here's a quote from article's author Holly Kays---

"The men were lying sidy-by-side on top of a mylar emergency blanket, skin gray and waxy, their summer-rated sleeping bags unzipped and spread across their backs. Steam seeped from the rudimentary shelter, maybe from the cigarettes that littered the area, maybe from the propane torch they were using to warm it, or maybe from their breath."


** Propane torch? The boys bring a torch but not a single winter bag??
** The rangers " . . . got their wet jeans, cotton shirts and sweatshirts off and replaced them with dry baselayers."

** What!! Cotton in January? Good god y'all.
** Rangers set up tents and everyone waits for the choppers.

** The worst part of the whole story is that these cotton wearing unprepared cig smoking clueless SC boys didn't have to pay a dime for the rescue involving 22 people and a Black Hawk. $20,000 sounds fair, split up 3 ways. We'll just say $7,000 each. Plus, these newbs didn't even bring a tent!

[CalebJ]

$20,000 for a helicopter rescue sounds insanely cheap. I'd have estimated at least double that.

[garlic08]

I've heard several times one of the reasons they're not charging for rescue by military choppers is that the pilots usually need the hours anyway, and it's great OJT.

I spent ten years as a fire/rescue volunteer and I loved going on calls like that, mainly because we didn't get them very often. If it happened 20 times every weekend and more often in the summer, and started taking serious time away from my family, then it would become a problem. That's exactly what's happening in some districts.

Oops, sorry for the thread drift, but I guess we've talked enough about down jackets--again.

[erdenscheibe]

That has been very informative, thanks!

[Another Kevin]

TW sums up the levels of clothing amazingly well.

I think I have a configuration that he doesn't mention, but he may not get the conditions for it: The southern AT doesn't ordinarily get conditions as harsh as Up North. If a windstorm arises on an exposed ridge up here, I'm likely to be in midweight baselayer, fleece jacket and pants, glove liners, the Bag-tex sock layering system, balaclava, boots, gaiters, raingear and possibly facemask and goggles. Tuque, mitts and puffy get slammed on quickly at stops.

This winds up being a "go to" combination when on the move on winter peak bagging trips. The raingear is usually needed to break the wind. (I would have thought that I broke enough wind after eating trail food ... sorry, I can never resist a pun.) In really harsh conditions, or on a bushwhack, I might substitute a hardshell.

(Stop reading here if all you want was to learn what I wear in the winter.)

I generally find that my hiking partners are dressed similarly. Four guys are having fun in "perfect storm" hypothermia weather in the first pic. For a quick photo stop and "thumbs up for the summit", nobody bothered to pull out a puffy, but you bet your bippy that every pack contained one. Alex wouldn't take off his hood for the camera or pull off a mitt for the "thumbs up." It was ugly weather. The trail went from entirely dry to the second pic's conditions in about an hour and a half. At least we had traction gear. I must have knocked a couple of pounds of ice off my pack cover when we got back to the cars. We learnt that someone died that weekend, a couple of mountains over. I had to pull over several times on the drive home to scrape the ice off my headlghts.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ahawso7ru0nwt930uEoU3tD5I6Pixhe5Mqt_gH71a4TFWD-jnk3A0Vn2CWpTwH_9fPPYc5kK-GcoVBM=s640-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RqkzToHVktTCL_5l19oLdPLdMpWozIIFZOwZcYYKLWvDYT621m Lxu-Ka4xXWDDPfTTQUpYY7v_v36TM=s640-no

[jeffmeh]

TW sums up the levels of clothing amazingly well.

I think I have a configuration that he doesn't mention, but he may not get the conditions for it: The southern AT doesn't ordinarily get conditions as harsh as Up North. If a windstorm arises on an exposed ridge up here, I'm likely to be in midweight baselayer, fleece jacket and pants, glove liners, the Bag-tex sock layering system, balaclava, boots, gaiters, raingear and possibly facemask and goggles. Tuque, mitts and puffy get slammed on quickly at stops.

This winds up being a "go to" combination when on the move on winter peak bagging trips. The raingear is usually needed to break the wind. (I would have thought that I broke enough wind after eating trail food ... sorry, I can never resist a pun.) In really harsh conditions, or on a bushwhack, I might substitute a hardshell.

(Stop reading here if all you want was to learn what I wear in the winter.)

I generally find that my hiking partners are dressed similarly. Four guys are having fun in "perfect storm" hypothermia weather in the first pic. For a quick photo stop and "thumbs up for the summit", nobody bothered to pull out a puffy, but you bet your bippy that every pack contained one. Alex wouldn't take off his hood for the camera or pull off a mitt for the "thumbs up." It was ugly weather. The trail went from entirely dry to the second pic's conditions in about an hour and a half. At least we had traction gear. I must have knocked a couple of pounds of ice off my pack cover when we got back to the cars. We learnt that someone died that weekend, a couple of mountains over. I had to pull over several times on the drive home to scrape the ice off my headlghts.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ahawso7ru0nwt930uEoU3tD5I6Pixhe5Mqt_gH71a4TFWD-jnk3A0Vn2CWpTwH_9fPPYc5kK-GcoVBM=s640-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RqkzToHVktTCL_5l19oLdPLdMpWozIIFZOwZcYYKLWvDYT621m Lxu-Ka4xXWDDPfTTQUpYY7v_v36TM=s640-no

Prudent selections. When it gets really nasty in the northern mountains, I bring out the wolf hood. Works great with my glasses. :)

36422

[Another Kevin]

Prudent selections. When it gets really nasty in the northern mountains, I bring out the wolf hood. Works great with my glasses. :)

36422

Is someone still selling those? I had one when I lived in NH. I miss it sometimes. It really is the best answer when you need glasses in cold weather. I do the best I can, go through a lot of Cat Crap, and still struggle with frosted goggles sometimes. Googling for them turns up Wolf brand kitchen range hoods, wolf reintroduction on Mount Hood, Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf, aconite (also called wolf's-bane and monk's-hood) and gear for furries. The gear for furries, however hot it might be if that's your kink, doesn't look very windproof. The other stuff looks even less useful. I see that Canada Goose amd Fjallraven still make anoraks with tunnel hoods, but I don't have $750-1000 to drop on an anorak, and the standalone hood like yours is a lot more versatile.

I also miss the shapka-ushanka that I had for more formal occasions. It was fisher fur. Wow, that hat was warm. It got overlooked when I moved to Arizona in 1977, and so it didn't get put in cold storage. Silverfish destroyed it. :( And now the price of fisher has gone through the roof - it's more expensive even than mink, nearly as pricey as sable.

[jeffmeh]

Is someone still selling those? I had one when I lived in NH. I miss it sometimes. It really is the best answer when you need glasses in cold weather. I do the best I can, go through a lot of Cat Crap, and still struggle with frosted goggles sometimes. Googling for them turns up Wolf brand kitchen range hoods, wolf reintroduction on Mount Hood, Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf, aconite (also called wolf's-bane and monk's-hood) and gear for furries. The gear for furries, however hot it might be if that's your kink, doesn't look very windproof. The other stuff looks even less useful. I see that Canada Goose amd Fjallraven still make anoraks with tunnel hoods, but I don't have $750-1000 to drop on an anorak, and the standalone hood like yours is a lot more versatile.

I also miss the shapka-ushanka that I had for more formal occasions. It was fisher fur. Wow, that hat was warm. It got overlooked when I moved to Arizona in 1977, and so it didn't get put in cold storage. Silverfish destroyed it. :( And now the price of fisher has gone through the roof - it's more expensive even than mink, nearly as pricey as sable.

Yes, I had some trouble finding a picture, finding the same results when googling "wolf hood." Try "Extreme Cold Weather Shore Parka Hood." I think this is the one I have, with the "real coyote fur trim." We don't need no stinking synthetic trim. :)

http://www.armysurpluswarehouse.com/military-clothing-and-uniforms/extreme-cold-weather-shore-parka-hood-a-1.html

While I carry it when going out overnight in winter, I only deploy it in extreme conditions. Otherwise it is too warm. Tough problem to have, lol.

[Tipi Walter]

Another Kevin---Your pic reminds me of a similar pic I took during a NC winter mountain trip in November 2008 at around 5,300 feet.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Blizzard-on-the-Bob-and-the/i-prQv24H/0/L/Trip%2085%20034-L.jpg

I understand your clothing choices: Midweight top, fleece jacket and pants, glove liners, balaclava, rain jacket. (Face mask and goggles never used down here). This amount of clothing is also used here on occasion when conditions are tough as in 0F with 50mph winds.

The big factor is pack weight and elevation needing to be gained. A climb of 2,000 feet with a 65 lb pack changes everything layer-wise due to sweat production. Clothing therefore has to be removed. (Defcon Rule #1: Don't sweat out your all important warmth layers).

The big challenge is to leave camp warm at 0F and stay warm thruout the day without removing too many layers. It's always an irksome balancing act because no one wants to leave camp warm and stop 15 minutes later to remove rain pants or fleece pants or a fleece jacket---but it must be done.

Ultimately, depending on what clothing you are carrying (and hopefully enough and overkill), it all comes down to the HANDS AND FEET. These babies are the things we are most concerned about, in all ways. The struggle to keep feet and hands functioning and warm to perform all duties is the challenge. A long winter backpacking trip becomes in essence a Thaw--Freeze--Thaw cycle for the hands.

With this challenge comes the major goal of keeping our gloves and glove liners and mittens dry. Packing up a frozen ice covered tent in liners wets them out in 2 minutes, hence the need for eVent shell mitts like the MLD models. Wet gloves are the worst. Solution? Always take two pairs of gloves, and keep one pair dry at all costs.

[Another Kevin]

The big factor is pack weight and elevation needing to be gained. A climb of 2,000 feet with a 65 lb pack changes everything layer-wise due to sweat production. Clothing therefore has to be removed. (Defcon Rule #1: Don't sweat out your all important warmth layers).

The big challenge is to leave camp warm at 0F and stay warm thruout the day without removing too many layers. It's always an irksome balancing act because no one wants to leave camp warm and stop 15 minutes later to remove rain pants or fleece pants or a fleece jacket---but it must be done.

I hear ya! If you don't start a climb cold, you're going to finish it wet. That picture was taken at the top of a 2000-foot climb. Since it was planned to be a day trip, it wasn't a 65-pound pack, but even a day pack in winter is heavy. I think my traction gear outweighs the entire pack that I'd take for a summer weekend.

The day my buddy took that first picture, we didn't hit that snow until about 3600 feet. It was freezing rain below, which sucks all the warmth out of you, even when you are loaded and climbing. On the way up we hit a lot of scrambles like this, and we were not sweating out our layers when we did them. The cold rain trickling down our rain gear cooled even our hiker heat production. We welcomed hitting the snow. Snow is a lot warmer. As I said, the freezing rain was 'perfect storm' hypothermia weather, and a hiker got in trouble and died a couple of mountains over. (The immediate cause of death was a fall, but hypothermia had clouded the guy's judgment.) All four of us were doing OK and looking out for each other. We pretty much didn't stop moving the whole day, since we knew that any stop would necessitate getting into some sort of shelter, and who wants to pitch a tarp just to have lunch sitting down?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4Iua5zw78j-paSfKifZJp6Lms5eHjw4Opp5MuA0ZRhnofioKKwErHKvC3eUP8 2ShI5-in2SXeGf34kY=s640-no

On a different trip, similar conditions without the freezing rain had my buddy Jon down to his T-shirt. I didn't get quite as overheated, and was wearing baselayer top and (unzipped) hardshell for most of the climb. This was about 2000 feet ascent on snowshoes, well-broken trail in a five-foot snowpack, and then the last 500 feet or so on crampons. As soon as we hit the exposed ridge, on went the hardshells, and we were continually putting our hats on and off the rest of the way - all of us were too warm with them, too cold without.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/96UsqOL-EizWFW77pWCPVlLi4wGQNzUBXF7HzB6jGjR9PvnD2L2X1H_Guj TC5Yzsqlb_m2546747OQ0=s640-no

We needed to bundle up, and put on hardshell pants, for the glissade back down. We must have slid in two minutes a stretch that took over an hour to climb.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EWTmbacqsoSsf_Vi4-4gk9UDky3vX6ius42jLYBVpWQm7mfYnbRir1xj945apCsFurqf CApOdQ8AKAw=s640-no

The popular style around here is to base camp at a relatively low elevation and go for summits with a lighter pack. I haven't entirely bought into that. I hate being separated from my gear. But it's what most people do. Given that those loads we're schlepping are just what you need for an alpine ascent, I can see the lure of stashing as much as you can.

[cmoulder]

Ironic that the biggest problem in winter is overheating (and the resultant moisture).

My mantra is "Ventilation before perspiration"

Shell pants with full side zips and shell jackets with pit zips are mandatory IMO.

[egilbe]

Moisture management is the number one concern when hiking in the Winter. If you're wet, you're dead. Keep it that simple and basic and you will live to hike another day. Hiking in Winter weeds out the fools fairly quickly.

In Winter, I'll wear a long sleeve 150wt wool base layer, a 100 wt fleece jacket and an anorak windshell, if its windy. The down puffy only comes out at stops.

If you're sweating, you are hiking too fast, or you're wearing too many layers. Either slow down or take a layer off.

[Tipi Walter]

Moisture management is the number one concern when hiking in the Winter. If you're wet, you're dead. Keep it that simple and basic and you will live to hike another day. Hiking in Winter weeds out the fools fairly quickly.

In Winter, I'll wear a long sleeve 150wt wool base layer, a 100 wt fleece jacket and an anorak windshell, if its windy. The down puffy only comes out at stops.

If you're sweating, you are hiking too fast, or you're wearing too many layers. Either slow down or take a layer off.

I agree with all these points. The last point must be carefully considered. Let's say you're climbing a tough mountain trail with a 3,000 foot elevation gain on a winter trip at 0F with moderate wind. (Wind chills are nasty).

You can't exactly hike in a t-shirt and rain jacket. So you start off with ample 0F type clothing---tops and bottoms, gloves and ample headgear. Oh and the most important point: You are carrying a 75 lb pack. This changes everything.

It's very difficult to perform this challenge without sweating out something. I always allow my t-shirt under my rain shell to get soaked with sweat---no sweat cuz in camp the Tee is discarded for my warmth layers. But at 0F more than a t-shirt is needed under the shell. Here's where it gets tricky. A couple capilene or merino layers sandwiched together under my rain shell usually work but great care must be taken to keep them dry from sweat.

Going full bore with a fleece jacket etc won't work on such a climb. Even my hands sweat in gloves.

[cmoulder]

One neat trick with fleece when it's really cold and dry (and when it's really cold it's usually dry) is to pack or rub dry snow into the garment to absorb moisture and then shake gloves or jacket vigorously. This can quickly reduce the moisture content by about 90% or so.

[saltysack]

DOWN=WARM & LIGHT! UL down parka makes a good pillow also....seriously check out the Montbell UL down parka, vest or jacket......one of my favorite pieces...if it's ethics I get it...I'm a animal lover especially birds...I volunteer with a wild bird rescue and rehab....I picked up this guy a few weeks back that some Arsehole shot! He was just released back into the wild....down is a by product of the goose/duck meat industry. They are not killed just for their plumage...http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161002/be9ef7712e828be3af2d5631138d9914.jpg


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[Leo L.]

If anything is made of good quality and is usable for many years I would consider the negative impact made to nature by producing it not really worth mentioning it.
I have three down sleeping bags and one down jacket, two of those 4 items are older than 35 years and still in use.
Much better than any throwaway fashion item.

[turtle fast]

Aside from the ethical debate of quality down or the higher cost associated with it, I like the lightweight property of it. (I own down gear) However, I tend to hike with synthetic jackets and bags. I've suffered too many water (and one time alcohol fuel) inundated packs to where everything I had was wet or damp and that's with using a pack cover and Silnylon stuffsacks!I have spent countless nights in damp bags, and as I hike a lot in cooler temperatures, I want to make sure if I needed more insulation that I'd have it. I also like the ability to wash the hiker funk out of the gear a tad easier as well.

[garlic08]

Aside from the ethical debate of quality down or the higher cost associated with it, I like the lightweight property of it. (I own down gear) However, I tend to hike with synthetic jackets and bags. I've suffered too many water (and one time alcohol fuel) inundated packs to where everything I had was wet or damp and that's with using a pack cover and Silnylon stuffsacks!I have spent countless nights in damp bags, and as I hike a lot in cooler temperatures, I want to make sure if I needed more insulation that I'd have it. I also like the ability to wash the hiker funk out of the gear a tad easier as well.

You're in very good company with that sentiment. Go to Ray Jardine's website and read his explanation of why he uses synthetics. Yet I've hiked the same trails he has in similar conditions (and I hiked the AT in '08), and I remain firmly in the down camp. I switched after decades of using synthetics, and wanted to kick myself for waiting so long. Go figure. I guess there's a reason both are available and both are widely used.

[Tipi Walter]

DOWN=WARM & LIGHT! UL down parka makes a good pillow also....seriously check out the Montbell UL down parka, vest or jacket......one of my favorite pieces...if it's ethics I get it...I'm a animal lover especially birds...I volunteer with a wild bird rescue and rehab....I picked up this guy a few weeks back that some Arsehole shot! He was just released back into the wild....down is a by product of the goose/duck meat industry. They are not killed just for their plumage...http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161002/be9ef7712e828be3af2d5631138d9914.jpg


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Thanks for this cool pic. Love eagles!! Here's me back in 1992 with an eagle on display at a Native American gathering---

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XmvdfozKhyEw2A-lXXc5dHgHi7PVNkLVi7KrvagQwHZsGmR5_9H-m_d5cjaSkgm91DPTBcbGgi2v=w2400-h1350-no

[Dogwood]

You're in very good company with that sentiment. Go to Ray Jardine's website and read his explanation of why he uses synthetics. Yet I've hiked the same trails he has in similar conditions (and I hiked the AT in '08), and I remain firmly in the down camp. I switched after decades of using synthetics, and wanted to kick myself for waiting so long. Go figure. I guess there's a reason both are available and both are widely used.

SOME good points and conclusions in Ray's article. However, BUYER BEWARE - Ray is also adamantly biased in favor of his gear, his perspectives, his approach, his way, etc. Just as can be said about down insulation synthetic insulation may not always be the immediate panacea that some assume. Some of Ray's conclusions need to be updated based on being more than 25 yrs old factoring in technological advancement, keener user insight, location specific conditions, event info conclusion(s) is based upon, etc.

[saltysack]

Thanks for this cool pic. Love eagles!! Here's me back in 1992 with an eagle on display at a Native American gathering---

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/XmvdfozKhyEw2A-lXXc5dHgHi7PVNkLVi7KrvagQwHZsGmR5_9H-m_d5cjaSkgm91DPTBcbGgi2v=w2400-h1350-no

They are amazing creatures.....happy to say they have made a hell of a comeback here in NE Fl....I remember as a kid I rarely saw them....now I see one nearly every day or so. Granted we are only 2nd to Alaska for bald eagle population, just wish the arsehole in our government would do more for land conservation so creatures like these can thrive and survive......we don't need anymore golf courses and country clubs!!! Actually these are lyrics from JJ Grey....a great musician who sings about our wild lands and need to protect it.....


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[MtDoraDave]

DOWN=WARM & LIGHT! UL down parka makes a good pillow also....seriously check out the Montbell UL down parka, vest or jacket......one of my favorite pieces...if it's ethics I get it..

Just googled Montbell, and found this:
http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=2001&p_id=2301460&gen_cd=1
4.8 ounces, 1000 fp $269
No pockets, but half the weight of most others in the same price range.

[Another Kevin]

Thanks for this cool pic. Love eagles!! Here's me back in 1992 with an eagle on display at a Native American gathering--

I saw this one at a fairground booth for a wildlife rescue organization. The poor guy is missing most of his left wing, but careful camera angle makes him look proud, even though he'll never be a candidate for release. I know of several people who've used this pic as decoration on their sites. One or two have even credited the source. The others are pretty way-out right-wing conspiracy theorists, who from the quality of their writing, probably never even heard the word, 'plagiarism.' Still, if they'd asked, I'd have said, "oh, go ahead."

https://c4.staticflickr.com/1/31/62579947_ac908e59f5_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/6wJQB)
Bald eagle spreads his wings at Raptor Rescue (https://flic.kr/p/6wJQB) by Kevin Kenny (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/), on Flickr

I also see them occasionally around the neighbourhood. There's a nest a couple or three miles from my house, down near the river. I know exactly where it is, so I stay away and leave them alone. They can come to me if they're inclined.

[colorado_rob]

I'm a huge proponent of down and UL down garments, if I went into my gear room I could probably count 10 down garments of my own, and nearly that many of my wife's.

BUT, having done the AT now, if I were to repeat it (and I will for my wife's sake), I would take a synthetic insulated jacket and "suffer" the 4 ounce penalty. It's not that I wetted out any down garment on my AT hike, because I never wore it sweating and I kept it dry from rain. It's just that there were plenty of times where I wish I had a handy, warm sweater-jacket that I could pull on and not worry about getting a bit damp.

So, as I do in the winter in Colorado, I lean towards my synthetic insulated Mont Bell Thermawrap (funny, but true, I carry only down in the late-spring through fall, but synthetic in the winter, with another down layer for camp).

So, for an early start on the AT, I'd carry a synthetic sweater-jacket. Yes, you can even hike in it, just don't sweat in it (as has already been said) as you'll be much warmer bone dry. In winter conditions, I start out in my thermawrap until I get my "engine" going, then strip it off before I sweat. simple, easy, warm. No sense starting out bone chilling cold.

That Patagonia synthetic nano puff thingie is very similar, but doesn't fit me as well (I bought and returned one) as the Mont Bell thermawrap; it flares out too much at the bottom, whereas the Mont Bell is a trimmer fit.

[Another Kevin]

I'm a huge proponent of down and UL down garments, if I went into my gear room I could probably count 10 down garments of my own, and nearly that many of my wife's.

BUT, having done the AT now, if I were to repeat it (and I will for my wife's sake), I would take a synthetic insulated jacket and "suffer" the 4 ounce penalty. It's not that I wetted out any down garment on my AT hike, because I never wore it sweating and I kept it dry from rain. It's just that there were plenty of times where I wish I had a handy, warm sweater-jacket that I could pull on and not worry about getting a bit damp.

So, as I do in the winter in Colorado, I lean towards my synthetic insulated Mont Bell Thermawrap (funny, but true, I carry only down in the late-spring through fall, but synthetic in the winter, with another down layer for camp).

So, for an early start on the AT, I'd carry a synthetic sweater-jacket. Yes, you can even hike in it, just don't sweat in it (as has already been said) as you'll be much warmer bone dry. In winter conditions, I start out in my thermawrap until I get my "engine" going, then strip it off before I sweat. simple, easy, warm. No sense starting out bone chilling cold.

That Patagonia synthetic nano puff thingie is very similar, but doesn't fit me as well (I bought and returned one) as the Mont Bell thermawrap; it flares out too much at the bottom, whereas the Mont Bell is a trimmer fit.

That is indeed a bit odd. There's actually some humidity in the air in the "shoulder seasons" - and that's when I'm more likely to have my PrimaLoft puff. In deep winter, the air is bone dry. But if you stay dry in your system, then it obviously suits you. I'm more likely to bring hardshell + down + fleece in winter. Maybe I use my heavy fleece where you use your MontBell.

[Tipi Walter]

I probably go overkill with clothing on my winter trips though I'll never return to a fiber fill or polarguard or primaloft jacket even though I carry a fleece jacket for midlayer warmth under my down parka in camp. Fleece is synthetic by the way. I use alot of synthetic layers---all my Patagonia capilene is such---and the fleece Arcteryx jacket---but these are midlayers for both moving and in camp. I save my down pants and down parka for in camp survival and comfort.

My down parka and down pants are my Defcon 6 layers when the fecal matter hits Miss Nature's floor fan and things get weird, like subzeros for a week. I carry these items so I can stay out no matter what and not bail. Staying out is the prime directive in my opinion, especially when Miss Nature wallops us with the best she has.

[colorado_rob]

That is indeed a bit odd. There's actually some humidity in the air in the "shoulder seasons" - and that's when I'm more likely to have my PrimaLoft puff. In deep winter, the air is bone dry. But if you stay dry in your system, then it obviously suits you. I'm more likely to bring hardshell + down + fleece in winter. Maybe I use my heavy fleece where you use your MontBell.I should have been more specific, I was referring to Colorado late-spring through fall, when it is bone dry (when it's not actively snowing/raining, of course). And it's not bone dry in the winter simply because it's cold enough that I need the insulation while hiking, and invariably some body moisture gets into my layers.

It is definitely not bone-dry along the AT in the spring, hence why I suggest synthetic insulation for a March start of the AT.

One little anecdote: In 50 years of hiking and backpacking, I cannot recall a single time when I was closer to significant and serious hypothermia than on the AT, crossing those balds just north of Roan Mountain, high 30's temperature and pouring rain, I was soaked through and through despite having some decent rain gear. I wanted to put on my down sweater, but figured it would wet-out quickly and be useless. THIS is precisely when a synthetic insulated garment would have been very useful, and perhaps the main reason I would take a thermawrap (sure, a 200 weight fleece would have worked) next time.

As it was, I just put my head down and kept hiking and eating until I was in a much drier and warmer place, at least a dozen miles or more downtrail.

Sure, fleece is "synthetic", but it is also heavy. I own a half dozen fleece jackets, can't seem to throw away the old ones, I wear 'em car camping and around town. Anyway, the fleece jacket that's equivalent in warmth to my Mont Bell thermawrap is a full 15 ounces heavier. Almost a pound.

[Fredt4]

I didn't carry my down vest on my 2011 Thru-hike. I ate dinner early around 5:00 and hiked a bit more then got into my down sleeping bag. I started on April 2nd and generally was quite conformable. I'd recommend you carry a down vest/jacket until you know whether you need one or not. As indicated in the other posts most people will want one for cooking and other matters. I chose not to have one, but I had the experience of not needing it. Until you gain that experience it's fool hardy to be unprepared. After you gain the experience then you and only you can determine what you need. As with all other gear you learn by experience and any short cuts can carry a heavy price.

[YoungBloodOnTrail]

I think the reason Down is so popular is because it's the lightest/most compressible you can get for the amount of warmth it gives you. While other pieces of clothing can be just as warm, they won't be as light nor as compressible. They also won't be as expensive! When I hike dthe AT, I brought a fleece and down jacket and hardly ever used the down, the fleece was enough even with an early March start. That said I was definitely glad I had the down when I needed it.

[rafe]

I never carried a down jacket on hikes until very recently, and even now I don't often do so.

Down is wonderful in a dry camp, a shelter, or in your tent. But it's useless while hiking. Perspiration will collect in the down, collapsing it, and causing it to lose all of its insulating power. It only works when it's dry.

The most versatile and useful piece of clothing I own -- in town, and on the trail -- is a synthetic flannel shirt. A nice wool flannel (eg. Pendleton brand) would do nicely as well. Being synthetic, it will continue to insulate even when it gets damp, and will dry quickly. As opposed to down, it can be worn while hiking.

Beware: 99% of the flannel shirts sold in shopping malls are cotton. These won't cut it. It's got to be wool or synthetic fabric.

Here's a link to an acrylic flannel shirt from blair.com: http://www.blair.com/p/allegheny-flannel-multi-check-shirt/114814.uts?is=Y&store=8&count=500&intl=n&q=flannel+shirt&keyword=flannel+shirt

[fastfoxengineering]

Puffy insulating jackets are typically light, compressible, and effective. Great for backpacking.

Synthetics vs down will be a never ending debate.

After owning (still do) and using puffy's from montbell, patagonia, ll bean, and the north face... I wouldn't hesitate to take a cheaper jacket if I was thru hiking the Appalachian trail. Just look for fill power, fill weight, and if down was used, ethical means were used to acquire said down.

In conclusion, I would go to a department store and most of them have their own version of a "sporty" down jacket typically on sale for less than $50. I wouldn't mind using one of these for $200 savings over a high end name brand and an ounce or two weight penalty.

Also, your clothes take a beating on a thru hike and you won't mind just using and abusing your cheap but effective down jacket. I've seen people cry when an ash from a fire puts a pin hole in their patagucci jacket.

I like nice things as much as the next guy, but we are talking the Appalachian Trail here, not an expedition that requires the highest quality gear available.

[fastfoxengineering]

I meant to add, I am keeping my eye on UNIQLO brand items.

They go on sale for cheap all the time and a lot of people have said good things about them. I'm not sure where they get there down from though.

[MuddyWaters]

I never carried a down jacket on hikes until very recently, and even now I don't often do so.

Down is wonderful in a dry camp, a shelter, or in your tent. But it's useless while hiking. Perspiration will collect in the down, collapsing it, and causing it to lose all of its insulating power.

Sort of.
This is easily mitigated by wearing vapor barrier beneath the down in winter conditions. Activity must be regulated to prevent soaking baselayers under the vapor barrier. Its actually a great technique for deep winter hiking.

[Engine]

Just googled Montbell, and found this:
http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=2001&p_id=2301460&gen_cd=1
4.8 ounces, 1000 fp $269
No pockets, but half the weight of most others in the same price range.

I have the Montbell UL down vest and HIGHLY recommend it. Super warm for very little weight. http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?p_id=2301150

[Another Kevin]

Sort of.
This is easily mitigated by wearing vapor barrier beneath the down in winter conditions. Activity must be regulated to prevent soaking baselayers under the vapor barrier. Its actually a great technique for deep winter hiking.

I'd definitely try that if I did long-distance hiking in deep winter. I switch to peak-bagging then, and manage to stay dry enough until I'm back indoors - which is not good enough for an extended trip. I have tried putting a PU-nylon windshirt between my baselayer and my puff, and I certainly stayed warm, but I'd have had major problems with moisture in the baselayer on a multiday trip that way. Which is to say, I'd need to tune that system a little bit more. I recognize that VBL is the way to go in deep winter, and certainly always use one on my feet in the season when the pac boots come out.