View Full Version : Hiker survives repeated grizzly attack
While not directly AT related I thought others might find this as interesting as I did.
This past weekend a 50 year old guy out for a hike in Montana came across two bear cubs and a protective momma bear. The momma bear came towards him and despite spraying her with bear spray she attacked. He balled himself up on the ground and did his best to protect his neck as the bear began mauling him. After a few minutes she let up and left, giving the hiker an opportunity to get out of there. But it appears momma bear wasn't through with him and she attacked him a second time a short time later. He once again balled himself up and did his best to protect himself while the bear chewed him up some more.
After all was said and done the bear left and he made his way back to the trailhead (a 3 mile hike back out!). He then drove himself 20 miles to the closest hospital, but not before he filmed a post attack video on Facebook. There are a handful of article for further reading. Here's one of them:
http://mtstandard.com/news/local/survivor-of-grizzly-attack-tells-harrowing-tale/article_c8a7c60b-596f-5deb-a970-127e07dc7a37.html
I read somewhere that when faced with an imminent black bear attack you "stand and fight" and with a grizzly bear attack you ball up on the ground and protect yourself as best you can. It looks like that approach paid off TWICE for this guy. Darn lucky.
Uncle Joe
10-03-2016, 13:37
That story is whacked! I wonder if his bear spray was old or just ineffective regardless. Yeah, this makes me want to avoid hiking in Grizzly country.
saltysack
10-03-2016, 13:37
I have no desire to hike in grizz country....scary! I think Id forego the bear spray for a sawed off 12 gauge with buck shot....he's lucky to survive!
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DuneElliot
10-03-2016, 13:41
I have no interest in hiking in Grizzly country...there were two CDT hikers mauled in the Yellowstone area this year also. Black bears don't bother me too much, but I am still wary and always try to let them know I am around.
Spirit Walker
10-03-2016, 13:50
Bear spray requires you to be close enough for the spray to get directly in the bear's eyes. He may have sprayed too soon. He may also have lain down too soon. The idea is to play dead. If you lie down too soon, the bear will come over to see what is happening and why you are down.
I've done a lot of hiking in grizzly country. You don't know what you are missing. Some of the most beautiful country in the world is where the bears live. There is a risk, but it is small. Much less than driving to the trailhead.
FreeGoldRush
10-03-2016, 13:57
There is a risk, but it is small. Much less than driving to the trailhead.
Can you provide the data that supports that? It is my belief that grizzlies are more dangerous than driving to the trailhead. :)
DuneElliot
10-03-2016, 14:17
Bear spray requires you to be close enough for the spray to get directly in the bear's eyes. He may have sprayed too soon. He may also have lain down too soon. The idea is to play dead. If you lie down too soon, the bear will come over to see what is happening and why you are down.
I've done a lot of hiking in grizzly country. You don't know what you are missing. Some of the most beautiful country in the world is where the bears live. There is a risk, but it is small. Much less than driving to the trailhead.
I guess I should amend my comment. I won't hike ALONE in grizzly country.
Hikingjim
10-03-2016, 14:17
Can you provide the data that supports that? It is my belief that grizzlies are more dangerous than driving to the trailhead. :)
The Canadian rockies, BC and Alaska have a ton of grizzly country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Only 11 fatalities in all of north america since the beginning of 2010. Two in the last two years.
Seems wyoming has a lot in the 2010s! But the amount of Canadian & Alaskan hiking activity divided by the # of deaths, leaves me thinking that I will risk it.
carouselambra
10-03-2016, 14:17
Additional photos here: https://www.facebook.com/todd.orr/posts/10210413732648994?pnref=story
They are chilling, especially the head wound.
Uncle Joe
10-03-2016, 14:21
Can you provide the data that supports that? It is my belief that grizzlies are more dangerous than driving to the trailhead. :)
Yeah statistics are nice and all but they forget one thing. Traffic statistics are what they are because we pass in close proximity, repeatedly, with other vehicles on the trip to the trailhead. If you passed that number of bears the odds of being attacked would equally go up.
gpburdelljr
10-03-2016, 14:24
There are only 10+/- fatal grizzly attacks per decade in North America.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America#Brown_ bear_2
You are far more likely to be killed by lightning.
https://weather.com/storms/severe/news/lightning-deaths-by-state-2005-2014
Hikingjim
10-03-2016, 14:26
Yeah statistics are nice and all but they forget one thing. Traffic statistics are what they are because we pass in close proximity, repeatedly, with other vehicles on the trip to the trailhead. If you passed that number of bears the odds of being attacked would equally go up.
I will certainly stop hiking in grizzly country when I pass 5 feet away from 100,000 bears on the way (similar to a vehicle), because I agree that might be a tad dangerous...
Until then, I don't quite care much about the car danger example, but I do buy the fact that people have zero issues on millions of hikes.
I have a fear of grizzlies as well, which is an emotion, but I realize it is irrational. I have yet to go on any backpacking trips in grizzly country but at some point I will. If I'm one of the unlucky 10 per decade or whatever the number is, then it is what it is. Of course it is one thing typing that from the comfort of my desk and another thing putting that rational thought into action on the trail.
nsherry61
10-03-2016, 14:42
Can you provide the data that supports that? It is my belief that grizzlies are more dangerous than driving to the trailhead. :)
Not much that we do in life is more dangerous than driving. Bears don't hold a candle to the risk of driving to the trailhead. Of course, a direct statistical comparison is pretty much impossible. Do you compare by hours in your car vs. hours on the trail (those numbers are impossible of find because they are not tallied)? Do you compare deaths per year (pretty unfair given the amount of time spent driving vs. hiking)? Do you count trail miles vs. driving miles (again, the data is unavailable).
But, here are some interesting numbers I pulled off of Wikipedia and Google:
Driving deaths (in recent years since safety has increased significantly over the decades):
1.5 deaths per 100,000,000 miles driven in the United States
1 death per 5000 licenced drivers in the United States
30,000 deaths per year in the United States
Now, as a comparison, the bear numbers are from all of North America, not just the US.
Between 2010 and present 1 death per year from black bears and 1.5 deaths per year from grizzlies.
Between 2000 and 2010 1.5 deaths per year from black bears and 1 death per year from grizzlies.
So, do we spend 30,000 times more time in our car than on the trail?
Are there 30,000 times more people driving than hiking?
One thing I think we can suggest, even without a robust statistical analysis, is that, as a culture, we dramatically underestimate the risk to our life and health from driving and dramatically overestimate the risk to us from wildlife.
Given the vast disparity in population between grizzlies and black bears, and the fact that black bears tend to be significantly more common near human populations, there is little doubt that grizzlies are way more deadly than black bears.
That all being said, most of the bear attacks, much like most of the car accidents involve significant human error. So, neither activity (hiking nor driving) is particularly dangerous until human stupidity or error is added to the equation. Drive smart and hike smart and enjoy life without too much worry regardless of whether you are driving in Boston or hiking in bear country.
Yes, the Boston area has the highest accident rate of the entire country according to Allstate Insurance. If you've ever driven here, you wont doubt that statistic.
gpburdelljr
10-03-2016, 14:45
Bill Bryant, in A Walk In The Woods, when discussing rarity of bear attacks wrote the following: "..... and here is the absolutely salient point - once would be enough......" :)
Sarcasm the elf
10-03-2016, 14:59
Not much that we do in life is more dangerous than driving. Bears don't hold a candle to the risk of driving to the trailhead. Of course, a direct statistical comparison is pretty much impossible. Do you compare by hours in your car vs. hours on the trail (those numbers are impossible of find because they are not tallied)? Do you compare deaths per year (pretty unfair given the amount of time spent driving vs. hiking)? Do you count trail miles vs. driving miles (again, the data is unavailable).
But, here are some interesting numbers I pulled off of Wikipedia and Google:
Driving deaths (in recent years since safety has increased significantly over the decades):
1.5 deaths per 100,000,000 miles driven in the United States
1 death per 5000 licenced drivers in the United States
30,000 deaths per year in the United States
Now, as a comparison, the bear numbers are from all of North America, not just the US.
Between 2010 and present 1 death per year from black bears and 1.5 deaths per year from grizzlies.
Between 2000 and 2010 1.5 deaths per year from black bears and 1 death per year from grizzlies.
So, do we spend 30,000 times more time in our car than on the trail?
Are there 30,000 times more people driving than hiking?
One thing I think we can suggest, even without a robust statistical analysis, is that, as a culture, we dramatically underestimate the risk to our life and health from driving and dramatically overestimate the risk to us from wildlife.
Given the vast disparity in population between grizzlies and black bears, and the fact that black bears tend to be significantly more common near human populations, there is little doubt that grizzlies are way more deadly than black bears.
That all being said, most of the bear attacks, much like most of the car accidents involve significant human error. So, neither activity (hiking nor driving) is particularly dangerous until human stupidity or error is added to the equation. Drive smart and hike smart and enjoy life without too much worry regardless of whether you are driving in Boston or hiking in bear country.
Yes, the Boston area has the highest accident rate of the entire country according to Allstate Insurance. If you've ever driven here, you wont doubt that statistic.
This begs the question, it a person is killed in a car accident because they collided with a bear at high speeds, do you count that as a bear fatality, an automobile fatality or both?:-?
I do very much agree with your overall point though, it never ceases to amaze me how a single incident can get the general public so worked up. This video has gone viral on facebook and some of the comments I've read are mind boggling. Reading them you get the idea that some people think that taking a stroll into the wilderness presents the same level of danger as storming the beaches of Normandy.
Uncle Joe
10-03-2016, 15:08
I will certainly stop hiking in grizzly country when I pass 5 feet away from 100,000 bears on the way (similar to a vehicle), because I agree that might be a tad dangerous...
Until then, I don't quite care much about the car danger example, but I do buy the fact that people have zero issues on millions of hikes.
The car analogy is a poor one. A better one might be comparing statistical danger between being in grizzly country and say being in a dangerous neighborhood.
Bill Bryant, in A Walk In The Woods, when discussing rarity of bear attacks wrote the following: "..... and here is the absolutely salient point - once would be enough......" :)
+1!! LOL!! Exactly. Too bad they haven't invented a bear repellent spray that we can spray on ourselves that either scares or seriously stinks to bears and causes them to avoid you like the plague. I have a Texas Heeler. I hear bears don't like those. I need some Eau Du Heeler perfume!
garlic08
10-03-2016, 15:11
Bear spray requires you to be close enough for the spray to get directly in the bear's eyes...
And we don't know the wind direction and speed, either.
...I've done a lot of hiking in grizzly country. You don't know what you are missing. Some of the most beautiful country in the world is where the bears live. There is a risk, but it is small. Much less than driving to the trailhead.
Hear, hear. I just got back from ten days in Kootenay and Mt Assinboine Parks in BC, saw one grizz and it made my day. Everyone carries bear spray on the trails up there. The parks have excellent food control and education, people are careful and respectful of the animals.
As far as risk, consider the risk of staying home scared of (your favorite phobia here) and not going hiking. Hiking keeps you younger and healthier!
Also from Bill Bryson's book... The statement about soiling oneself lifeless comes to mind. Too bad that scent doesn't deter them either.
And we don't know the wind direction and speed, either.
Hear, hear. I just got back from ten days in Kootenay and Mt Assinboine Parks in BC, saw one grizz and it made my day. Everyone carries bear spray on the trails up there. The parks have excellent food control and education, people are careful and respectful of the animals.
As far as risk, consider the risk of staying home scared of (your favorite phobia here) and not going hiking. Hiking keeps you younger and healthier!
+1 I am an arachnophobic but I take precautions that most people would deem silly and hike on!
The Canadian rockies, BC and Alaska have a ton of grizzly country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America
Only 11 fatalities in all of north america since the beginning of 2010. Two in the last two years.
Seems wyoming has a lot in the 2010s! But the amount of Canadian & Alaskan hiking activity divided by the # of deaths, leaves me thinking that I will risk it.
Bear in mind (pun intended ) these are 'deaths' not all attacks result in death. Do they count maulings in the data?
ADVStrom14
10-03-2016, 15:30
I have a fear of grizzlies as well, which is an emotion, but I realize it is irrational. I have yet to go on any backpacking trips in grizzly country but at some point I will. If I'm one of the unlucky 10 per decade or whatever the number is, then it is what it is. Of course it is one thing typing that from the comfort of my desk and another thing putting that rational thought into action on the trail.
I have a tendency to lean in this direction too. I am new so my lack of experience may cause my fear to be a little more irrational than those more seasoned and better prepared to be in that situation. I know the chance is there but I eventually want to work my way up to being able to hike in griz country because I don't want to let that fear stop me from seeing some of those sights. If I get attacked hopefully my practice and preparedness will pay off but if not, that's a chance I take.
Jes
I have a tendency to lean in this direction too. I am new so my lack of experience may cause my fear to be a little more irrational than those more seasoned and better prepared to be in that situation. I know the chance is there but I eventually want to work my way up to being able to hike in griz country because I don't want to let that fear stop me from seeing some of those sights. If I get attacked hopefully my practice and preparedness will pay off but if not, that's a chance I take.
It's a really personal decision and related to personal circumstances and risk mitigation. I have no dependents and probably have a higher tolerance for physical risk than average, valuing the quality of my life experiences highly even if they put me at somewhat higher risk. Still I try to be smart about what I do but inherently a lot of things related to hiking involve the small probability of a catastrophic outcome (falls, lightning, animals - probably the least problematic, etc).
I read somewhere that when faced with an imminent black bear attack you "stand and fight" and with a grizzly bear attack you ball up on the ground and protect yourself as best you can. It looks like that approach paid off TWICE for this guy. Darn lucky.
This is true according to practically all bear researchers. Reason being that although black bear attacks are even rarer than grizzlies, that data shows that most black bear attacks result in death and then predictory action....meaning they'll then feed on you. So best to stand and fight for your life. Also, when a rouge black has learned how easy a human is to chase down compared to a deer or rabbit, they will actually 'stalk' you! Data doesn't support the same for grizzlies.
The Roaming Gnome
10-03-2016, 15:50
This guy was attacked by a Grizzly and decided (or accidentally) to stick his arm down the bear's throat causing the bear to gag and run away. LOL Either way...I'll stick to hiking in black bear country.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/10/06/Montana-man-fends-off-grizzly-bear-by-inducing-gag-reflex/7111444128790/
Tipi Walter
10-03-2016, 16:37
I could post hundreds of gory pictures of automobiles wrecks but I don't. Would get kicked off this forum probably. Point is, wilderness travel entails risks. It's all part of living and hiking in a wilderness area. A falling tree could do worse damage. Falling off a cliff too. Anaphylactic shock from a mere hornet can kill you. Highway travel can kill you.
Hornets live in wilderness. Bears live in wilderness. Humans for the most part are visitors. We visit wilderness areas and accept the risks. If we slaughter every bear alive we make wilderness travel safer in that regard but then oops it's not wilderness anymore.
nsherry61
10-03-2016, 18:34
Two points again:
1) Our smell is phenomenally effective as a bear repellent. There is probably nothing we could take a bath in that would be more effective. But, no matter what repellent a smell we have, with enough food rewards, bears will learn to ignore how horribly we smell.
2) The beauty of comparing bear fears with car statistics is the absurdity of our bear fear (or any other animals in the wild), especially in contrast with our cavalier attitude toward the risks we accept without though every time we get in a car. They are two extremes of irrational emotional assessment of danger vs. the real danger.
garlic08
10-03-2016, 18:41
Hell, more deaths are caused worldwide by mosquitoes than any other animal, I've heard. Humans are next, followed by snakes and dogs. Sharks are at the bottom of the top ten, a list absent of bears. The list (https://www.ksl.com/?sid=29721017&nid=711).
Long, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y, but a good presentation on grizzly behaviors and strategies to co-exist in grizzly habitat.
Smith has 10s of thousands of hours in actual field study.
pickNgrin
10-03-2016, 20:04
Wow, that is one heck of a story. He is lucky to have lived. For those who might have missed it, here is his account of the second attack:
"Again I protected the back of my neck with my arms, and kept tight against the ground to protect my face and eyes. She slammed down on top of me and bit my shoulder and arms again. One bite on my forearm went through to the bone and I heard a crunch. My hand instantly went numb and wrist and fingers were limp and unusable. The sudden pain made me flinch and gasp for breath. The sound triggered a frenzy of bites to my shoulder and upper back. I knew I couldn't move or make a sound again so I huddled motionless. Another couple bites to my head and a gash opened above my ear, nearly scalping me. The blood gushed over my face and into my eyes. I didn't move. I thought this was the end. She would eventually hit an artery in my neck and I would bleed out in the trail... But I knew that moving would trigger more bites so a laid motionless hoping it would end.
She suddenly stopped and just stood on top of me. I will never forgot that brief moment. Dead silence except for the sound of her heavy breathing and sniffing. I could feel and her breath on the back of my neck, just inches away. I could feel her front claws digging into my lower back below my backpack where she stood. I could smell the terrible pungent odor she emitted. For thirty seconds she stood there crushing me. My chest was smashed into the ground and forehead in the dirt. When would the next onslaught of biting began. I didn't move.
And then she was gone."
Tipi Walter
10-03-2016, 20:06
2) The beauty of comparing bear fears with car statistics is the absurdity of our bear fear (or any other animals in the wild), especially in contrast with our cavalier attitude toward the risks we accept without though every time we get in a car. They are two extremes of irrational emotional assessment of danger vs. the real danger.
The big difference in car wrecks vs bear attacks is we usually kill the bears but don't close a highway or bulldoze up the asphalt or shoot the SUV driver who plowed into us. Bears on the other hand always get wasted, sometimes 2 or 3 at a time for one attack.
MuddyWaters
10-03-2016, 20:22
Incredible that bear must have pursued him for 10 min...at least half mile at fast walk...before second attack.
Very fortunate to survive...both.
That story is whacked! I wonder if his bear spray was old or just ineffective regardless. Yeah, this makes me want to avoid hiking in Grizzly country.
Manufacturers place expiration dates on bear spray to control the reduction in aerosol pressure. The OC contents remains potent, but some of the propellant may have escaped.
AfterParty
10-03-2016, 21:14
He should get a really cool trail name
colorado_rob
10-03-2016, 21:19
He should get a really cool trail name"Ursnack" seems appropriate
I have no interest in hiking in Grizzly country...there were two CDT hikers mauled in the Yellowstone area this year also... Citation?
People kill more people than do grizzly bears, per capita. (http://bucktrack.blogspot.com/2011/02/bears-should-you-be-afraid.html)
This story is appearing all over the internet, like every grizzly attack. It gives people the impression that grizzlies are far more dangerous than they are. This guy was phenomenally unlucky and he will still recover.
I live in grizzly country. Bears are the most over-feared danger in the outdoors. A respect for the potential danger of bears is wise. An unwarranted level of fear, to the point that it keeps us out of the grizzly country, is a shame.
saltysack
10-03-2016, 22:53
Citation?
People kill more people than do grizzly bears, per capita. (http://bucktrack.blogspot.com/2011/02/bears-should-you-be-afraid.html)
This story is appearing all over the internet, like every grizzly attack. It gives people the impression that grizzlies are far more dangerous than they are. This guy was phenomenally unlucky and he will still recover.
I live in grizzly country. Bears are the most over-feared danger in the outdoors. A respect for the potential danger of bears is wise. An unwarranted level of fear, to the point that it keeps us out of the grizzly country, is a shame.
With your knowledge and experience in grizz country what precautions do you take other than the norm of minimizing food smells, making noise etc....
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With your knowledge and experience in grizz country what precautions do you take other than the norm of minimizing food smells, making noise etc....
I try to avoid camping on bear trails, say along a salmon river where bears are feeding. If it seems like good grizzly habitat, I keep my eyes open and make some human noise walking through thickets: talking, metallic sounds, whatever. I stay clear of dead animals, especially a cached kill. I avoid crowding bears. On river trips I've carried a rifle or bear spray just in case. When I'm hiking in Alaska I usually carry neither.
In places like the AT or PCT I don't worry about bears at all other than protecting my food.
Uncle Joe
10-03-2016, 23:27
Manufacturers place expiration dates on bear spray to control the reduction in aerosol pressure. The OC contents remains potent, but some of the propellant may have escaped.
Thanks for the info!
Heliotrope
10-04-2016, 02:02
Watch the film "the revenant" for a gruesome grizzly attack.
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garlic08
10-04-2016, 08:25
I hiked with a Fairbanks resident once, actually a grizzly researcher with the university. We were in grizzly country in MT and WY, and he did not bother to carry bear spray. Guess which animal scared him? Moose. A moose tried to kill him on campus one night as he was walking home.
Then I remembered two recent moose fatalities in Colorado, a state with very few moose. Then I looked up bear fatalities in Colorado, and found two. Tied score. I'm very careful in moose country.
litetrek
10-04-2016, 08:28
That story is whacked! I wonder if his bear spray was old or just ineffective regardless. Yeah, this makes me want to avoid hiking in Grizzly country.
I went hiking in Alaska in the mid 90's and bought a huge can of bear spray to protect myself. It was huge - almost the size of a small fire extinguisher. It had no expiration date. It cost 45 dollars so I saved it. A few years ago I went backpacking in the Cohutta Wilderness. A young male black bear was acting aggressively in our campsite and my hiking buddy grabbed my can of spray and discharged it about 6 feet from the bear. The canister DID NOT WORK. It just dribbled the nasty fluid all over his hands. All of the propellant had leaked out over the years. The bear apparently thought it was funny and he went home. My friend had to relieve himself a little while later and apparently did not clean his hands of the spray well enough. He spent the next hour soaking in the stream naked and in pain.
LESSON: Bear spray will not last indefinitely. These days the canisters are stamped with an expiration date. If you've got one that is old with no expiration date, I would discard it and get a new one.
nsherry61
10-04-2016, 08:55
With your knowledge and experience in grizz country what precautions do you take other than the norm of minimizing food smells, making noise etc....
#1, #2 and #3) Don't ever surprise or threaten a grizzly!!
So, always make lots of human noise (talking loudly or singing).
The larger the group of people, the lower the likelihood of an attack, so hike with friends. It's easier to talk and sing and make noise with friends than when hiking solo also.
Guns tend not to work unless there are several people with guns. And then with several people you are unlikely to be attacked so guns aren't needed. You are more likely to make them mad shooting them than you are to kill them fast enough to save yourself. I grew up with a story of a bear in the Sitka AK area, where I was born, that had killed several people and been shot several times. In the end, a guy's dog barked, alerting him to the bear stalking him which he then shot and killed. The boar grizzly was found to have something like 13 bullets in it from 5 different guns. Several bullets had been lodged in it's brain, apparently for years.
Bear spray has been shown to be more effective at deterring bear attacks than guns (and it weighs less). In this case, even though the bear spray didn't work, if he had shot and injured the bear, he might not have been left alone to escape with his life.
FreeGoldRush
10-04-2016, 09:17
A few years ago I went backpacking in the Cohutta Wilderness. A young male black bear was acting aggressively in our campsite
Can you provide more detail on this?
Recently I did two overnight trips on the AT in Georgis and found that people usually eat where they sleep. Maybe I have been overly paranoid about separating myself from food odors.
DuneElliot
10-04-2016, 09:21
Citation?
People kill more people than do grizzly bears, per capita. (http://bucktrack.blogspot.com/2011/02/bears-should-you-be-afraid.html)
This story is appearing all over the internet, like every grizzly attack. It gives people the impression that grizzlies are far more dangerous than they are. This guy was phenomenally unlucky and he will still recover.
I live in grizzly country. Bears are the most over-feared danger in the outdoors. A respect for the potential danger of bears is wise. An unwarranted level of fear, to the point that it keeps us out of the grizzly country, is a shame.
I was following Shepherd's blog at bikehikesafari.com. I can only find the one post: http://bikehikesafari.com/2016/10/01/cdt-day-162-a-perfect-day/
I was following Shepherd's blog at bikehikesafari.com. I can only find the one post: http://bikehikesafari.com/2016/10/01/cdt-day-162-a-perfect-day/
Thanks for finding that, DuneElliot!
With how fast any bear attack stories spread, I am very skeptical that two CDT hikers were mauled. I checked out several CDT hiking forums and there is no mention of a CDT hiker mauling, let alone two. It's small world on the CDT. I suspect the guy who told the story to the above blogger was pulling his leg, although it's possible.
I hiked with a Fairbanks resident once, actually a grizzly researcher with the university. We were in grizzly country in MT and WY, and he did not bother to carry bear spray. Guess which animal scared him? Moose. A moose tried to kill him on campus one night as he was walking home.
Then I remembered two recent moose fatalities in Colorado, a state with very few moose. Then I looked up bear fatalities in Colorado, and found two. Tied score. I'm very careful in moose country.
+1 on the need to be careful of moose, especially cows with calves and bulls in the Fall rut. While their habitat is limited in Colorado due to presence of marshes and lakes, they are dense in areas of North Park, Colorado River head waters and the Flat Tops Wilderness. Although the Colorado Shiras species is smaller than their Alaskan cousins, the males are over 6' tall at the shoulder and can weight 1200 #'s.
They have no fear of humans and can open your skull with 1 kick. I have had them march through a back country site on the edge of a meadow at dusk with no regard for the site's resident humans. They almost walk over a 2 man tent. My friend had a bull tag last year which he filled as a 50" bull walked through their car camping site. Made for an easy carry to the coolers.
Near Cameron Pass on the Cache La Poudre
https://attachment.outlook.office.net/owa/
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colorado_rob
10-04-2016, 11:21
By the way, the moose population in Colorado is going nuts these days, up to 3000 from what I hear. I'm seeing them all over Colorado these days, used to only see one occasionally in the West side of RMNP.
Moose scare me, black bears not at all.
But grizzlys yikes... maybe this thread will help my grizzly phobia. Thanks for all that info, Coulter.
DuneElliot
10-04-2016, 11:27
I went hiking in Alaska in the mid 90's and bought a huge can of bear spray to protect myself. It was huge - almost the size of a small fire extinguisher. It had no expiration date. It cost 45 dollars so I saved it. A few years ago I went backpacking in the Cohutta Wilderness. A young male black bear was acting aggressively in our campsite and my hiking buddy grabbed my can of spray and discharged it about 6 feet from the bear. The canister DID NOT WORK. It just dribbled the nasty fluid all over his hands. All of the propellant had leaked out over the years. The bear apparently thought it was funny and he went home. My friend had to relieve himself a little while later and apparently did not clean his hands of the spray well enough. He spent the next hour soaking in the stream naked and in pain.
LESSON: Bear spray will not last indefinitely. These days the canisters are stamped with an expiration date. If you've got one that is old with no expiration date, I would discard it and get a new one.
Completely off the point of bear spray, but the previous class in the academy to ours went through OC training...apparently one guy forgot to wash his hair first before jumping in the shower...the entire dorm, all three floors, heard him screaming! It's pretty nasty stuff!
Traveler
10-04-2016, 12:39
The headline kind of begs a question I figured Rocket would ask, why would someone repeatedly attack a grizzly bear....
Tipi Walter
10-04-2016, 13:34
By the way, the moose population in Colorado is going nuts these days, up to 3000 from what I hear. I'm seeing them all over Colorado these days, used to only see one occasionally in the West side of RMNP.
It may be that the human population in Colorado is going nuts these days. Current population is 5.47 million people. 3,000 moose sounds miniscule. Maybe we could limit sprawl and allow more moose habitat??
Sarcasm the elf
10-04-2016, 14:57
This event also marks the last time that guy's kids or grandkids ever got to complain that what they were doing was too hard. :D
TN James
10-04-2016, 15:12
Come'on people, haven't y'all seen the 2005 film Grizzly Man? Grizzlies are basically big, fat, lovable (yet misunderstood) teddy bears that just want to be our friends. This guy was obviously antagonizing the bear and/or didn't carry the proper demeanor while in grizzly territory. In my experience it's best to gently approach the bear, call them a cute nickname and slowly try to pet the animal. Also, if the bear resists, sometimes food can be used to entice the bear into being your friend. YMMV
Water Rat
10-04-2016, 15:19
Come'on people, haven't y'all seen the 2005 film Grizzly Man? Grizzlies are basically big, fat, lovable (yet misunderstood) teddy bears that just want to be our friends. This guy was obviously antagonizing the bear and/or didn't carry the proper demeanor while in grizzly territory. In my experience it's best to gently approach the bear, call them a cute nickname and slowly try to pet the animal. Also, if the bear resists, sometimes food can be used to entice the bear into being your friend. YMMV
OMG. That was like watching a trainwreck waiting to happen.
Don't forget you need an adorable little fox to follow you around because all of the woodland creatures are docile.
Come'on people, haven't y'all seen the 2005 film Grizzly Man? Grizzlies are basically big, fat, lovable (yet misunderstood) teddy bears that just want to be our friends. This guy was obviously antagonizing the bear and/or didn't carry the proper demeanor while in grizzly territory. In my experience it's best to gently approach the bear, call them a cute nickname and slowly try to pet the animal. Also, if the bear resists, sometimes food can be used to entice the bear into being your friend. YMMV
Exactly!!! Didn't you ever watch Grizzly Adams growing up?? LOL!!!
Sarcasm the elf
10-04-2016, 15:49
Exactly!!! Didn't you ever watch Grizzly Adams growing up?? LOL!!!
Your mistake is assuming that any of us grew up. :D
Tipi Walter
10-04-2016, 15:55
Remember, Tristan Ludlow died a good death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z6tY-550KU
AfterParty
10-04-2016, 15:57
Grizzly Adams ha that's perfect. You say "the reverent" but pretty sure they copied "hell on wheels" when common killed a bear with a knife.
rocketsocks
10-04-2016, 16:40
Remember, Tristan Ludlow died a good death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z6tY-550KU
"Bart the Bear"
http://bartbear.tripod.com/
It may be that the human population in Colorado is going nuts these days. Current population is 5.47 million people. 3,000 moose sounds miniscule. Maybe we could limit sprawl and allow more moose habitat??
Sounds very trendy.
The facts are that there is very little overlap between the moose's habitat and "urban sprawl". Most moose habitat is in lowland water areas hardly a developer's delight.
Moose were re-introduced 30 years ago near Walden and have done very well. To the point that some hunting tags go un-filled even though they are quite a tasty animal.
One of our biggest land use struggles in Colorado is policy being set by a bunch of people who live in or near Washington DC
The one thing that this type of incident, widely disseminated on Facebook and everywhere else, is that I receive links to this story from many people I know who are "concerned" even though I have yet to hike in Grizzly country and my next trip this month is on the AT. I guess it is nice to know people care ...
your mistake is assuming that any of us grew up. :d
hahaha!!! :)
rocketsocks
10-05-2016, 15:43
I double dog dare anyone to "grin a barh" like Daniel Boone use ta do...let us know how that works out.
rocketsocks
10-05-2016, 15:50
I double dog dare anyone to "grin a barh" like Daniel Boone use ta do...let us know how that works out.
Whoops! Davy Crocket, though I'd bet ole Daniel could give a barh whut fur too.
pickNgrin
10-05-2016, 16:01
They were both played by Fess Parker, so you're good. :)
litetrek
10-05-2016, 19:57
Can you provide more detail on this?
Recently I did two overnight trips on the AT in Georgis and found that people usually eat where they sleep. Maybe I have been overly paranoid about separating myself from food odors.
Here are the details. The campsite at the river end of the Penitentiary Branch Trail is noted for having bear visits, probably because of its easy access. People with fairly easy access to a back country campsite aren't necessarily knowledgeable about being careful with food, smells, etc when camping in bear country. The campsite we were using was fairly close to the penitentiary branch campsite and it was at the bottom of rough ridge which was also noted at the time (maybe still is-dont know) for having bear visits.
Anyhow, we camped at the bottom of rough ridge and my hiking buddy was cooking dinner and he spilled the Mylar bag on the ground while he was stirring it. Bad move. He then compounded the mistake by scraping up the spillage and insisting on burying it about 75 feet from our tents. Bears have a sense of smell that is so good they can smell food for miles. While I was explaining to my friend that burying food was just stupid and burying it right by our tents was even more stupid the first bear (the male) showed up. We tried to shoo him away by yelling and waving our arms and he persisted. Apparently he thought we were too menacing and he lunged at me. This upset my friend who then grabbed the bear spray and discharged the canister on himself. He the picked up a dead branch which made him look bigger and the bear got scared and ran off. I took the canister and dribbled what was left on the remnant of the buried and spilled spot making them unappealing.
The mother and her cubs wandered by about 10 minutes later. She would have left us alone but my buddy had to follow her to get some pictures. The cubs climbed some trees and momma dropped her head and gave my friend the look of death...like one more step and you've had it. He was at least smart enough to pick up on the visual cues and came back to the campsite. I didn't sleep well that night but luckily the bears did come back. I'm told that they often return.
You probably already know about this since you mention that you're paranoid about it but a lot of people dont.
a) you're only as safe as the dumbest person you're camping with. If your buddy goes to bed with a candy bar in his pocket and a bear comes to get it, you've both got a bear to deal with. I'm especially paranoid about stupidity I can't see like the last guy to use the campsite you're camping in who poured his bacon grease off into the weeds next to where you pitched your tent before he left 3 hours ago.
b) spilled food, even a little bit will attract animals - maybe a bear. Ideally have separate clothes to sleep in that you only sleep in. food spilled on yourself makes you a smellable.
c) put ALL of your smellables in a bear bag and hang the bear bag at one corner of the "bear-muda" triangle. Some people use an Ursack instead since hanging a bear bag is a pain. Others use a bear canister. Bear canisters are a pain. They're heavy, they're hard to pack, they're expensive and the hold a limited amount of food/smellables. Learn how to properly hang a bear bag....its not that easy and they aren't guaranteed to work. bears are smart and if your bear decides to persist he'll get your stuff anyhow
d) many things are a smellable to a bear since they don't get the smells in their environment and they want to check them out. Typical smellables are: food, food scraps, garbage, soap, deodorant, perfume, tootpaste, tootbrush, you if you have any of those types of smells on you. ETC. Bears are smart and curious. If they smell something they've never encountered they want to check it out.
e) the bear-muda triangle is a triangle with your tents at one corner, your bear bags at another corner, and the place you clean your cooking pots at the other corner. The sides are 300 feet (if I remember right) at a minimum.
f) rule of thumb - think hard about smellables when hanging the bear bag. As soon as its hung you'll find a smellable you forgot or realize you need something that's up in the bag.
All of this said, I've only had a close encounter with bears that one time in 40 years of backpacking. One other time a saw bear running across the road while in my car from about 200 feet. Another time I saw one about 500 feet away over in North Carolina. We both just payed our respects and continued on our way leaving each other alone.
litetrek
10-05-2016, 20:05
I wish it was possible to edit these posts. The bears at rough ridge did NOT come back to visit us. Also, I forgot to mention that a lot of people don't really worry much about bears on the east coast. They're playing the odds and usually it works out. Using the precautions I listed greatly improves your odds but still doesnt ENSURE that you wont get a bear visit.
litetrek
10-05-2016, 20:12
+1 on the need to be careful of moose, especially cows with calves and bulls in the Fall rut. While their habitat is limited in Colorado due to presence of marshes and lakes, they are dense in areas of North Park, Colorado River head waters and the Flat Tops Wilderness. Although the Colorado Shiras species is smaller than their Alaskan cousins, the males are over 6' tall at the shoulder and can weight 1200 #'s.
They have no fear of humans and can open your skull with 1 kick. I have had them march through a back country site on the edge of a meadow at dusk with no regard for the site's resident humans. They almost walk over a 2 man tent. My friend had a bull tag last year which he filled as a 50" bull walked through their car camping site. Made for an easy carry to the coolers.
Near Cameron Pass on the Cache La Poudre
https://attachment.outlook.office.net/owa/
[email protected]/service.svc/s/GetAttachmentThumbnail?id=AQMkADAwATIwMTAwAC0wMzdl LTFiZDktMDACLTAwCgBGAAADhg8MtoHnjk%2BG7UQScSWCHQcA CfrOx3u0oUapFXBolrzz2QAAAgEMAAAACfrOx3u0oUapFXBolr zz2QABCojCcwAAAAESABAAbI7mAmEqP0Ggbk3FusJ%2FKg%3D% 3D&thumbnailType=2&X-OWA-CANARY=fkb9MU_G4kuvcF0cR9UqMKDtl2Vm7NMYT9fi9rcLnGQ CrOyyo-9AS7K9Xj4XkjBCxP3gIkyXllA.&token=8d08e65d-5d07-4892-8312-9e3351b1853f&owa=outlook.live.com&isc=1
Moose look docile but they are very irritable and can easily kill you as you say. I like moose (meese) but I don't want one to be anywhere close to me. I've been in moose country in the north east but never saw one on the trail (limited hiking experience up there). I did see a bunch of them when hiking in Alaska but we kept our distance from them.
FreeGoldRush
10-05-2016, 23:15
Here are the details. The campsite at the river end of the Penitentiary Branch Trail is noted for having bear visits, probably because of its easy access. People with fairly easy access to a back country campsite aren't necessarily knowledgeable about being careful with food, smells, etc when camping in bear country. The campsite we were using was fairly close to the penitentiary branch campsite and it was at the bottom of rough ridge which was also noted at the time (maybe still is-dont know) for having bear visits.
Anyhow, we camped at the bottom of rough ridge and my hiking buddy was cooking dinner and he spilled the Mylar bag on the ground while he was stirring it. Bad move. He then compounded the mistake by scraping up the spillage and insisting on burying it about 75 feet from our tents. Bears have a sense of smell that is so good they can smell food for miles. While I was explaining to my friend that burying food was just stupid and burying it right by our tents was even more stupid the first bear (the male) showed up. We tried to shoo him away by yelling and waving our arms and he persisted. Apparently he thought we were too menacing and he lunged at me. This upset my friend who then grabbed the bear spray and discharged the canister on himself. He the picked up a dead branch which made him look bigger and the bear got scared and ran off. I took the canister and dribbled what was left on the remnant of the buried and spilled spot making them unappealing.
The mother and her cubs wandered by about 10 minutes later. She would have left us alone but my buddy had to follow her to get some pictures. The cubs climbed some trees and momma dropped her head and gave my friend the look of death...like one more step and you've had it. He was at least smart enough to pick up on the visual cues and came back to the campsite. I didn't sleep well that night but luckily the bears did come back. I'm told that they often return.
You probably already know about this since you mention that you're paranoid about it but a lot of people dont.
a) you're only as safe as the dumbest person you're camping with. If your buddy goes to bed with a candy bar in his pocket and a bear comes to get it, you've both got a bear to deal with. I'm especially paranoid about stupidity I can't see like the last guy to use the campsite you're camping in who poured his bacon grease off into the weeds next to where you pitched your tent before he left 3 hours ago.
b) spilled food, even a little bit will attract animals - maybe a bear. Ideally have separate clothes to sleep in that you only sleep in. food spilled on yourself makes you a smellable.
c) put ALL of your smellables in a bear bag and hang the bear bag at one corner of the "bear-muda" triangle. Some people use an Ursack instead since hanging a bear bag is a pain. Others use a bear canister. Bear canisters are a pain. They're heavy, they're hard to pack, they're expensive and the hold a limited amount of food/smellables. Learn how to properly hang a bear bag....its not that easy and they aren't guaranteed to work. bears are smart and if your bear decides to persist he'll get your stuff anyhow
d) many things are a smellable to a bear since they don't get the smells in their environment and they want to check them out. Typical smellables are: food, food scraps, garbage, soap, deodorant, perfume, tootpaste, tootbrush, you if you have any of those types of smells on you. ETC. Bears are smart and curious. If they smell something they've never encountered they want to check it out.
e) the bear-muda triangle is a triangle with your tents at one corner, your bear bags at another corner, and the place you clean your cooking pots at the other corner. The sides are 300 feet (if I remember right) at a minimum.
f) rule of thumb - think hard about smellables when hanging the bear bag. As soon as its hung you'll find a smellable you forgot or realize you need something that's up in the bag.
All of this said, I've only had a close encounter with bears that one time in 40 years of backpacking. One other time a saw bear running across the road while in my car from about 200 feet. Another time I saw one about 500 feet away over in North Carolina. We both just payed our respects and continued on our way leaving each other alone.
This is all correct. I was kinda surprised at how people come in, setup tents, eat next to their tent, and hang a bear bag a few steps away. Even the provided bear cables are shockingly close to where people sleep.
So try as hard as you like, but even if you separate yourself from your food smells you very likely are sleeping where someone else poured the remaining liquid out of their Mountain House mylar bag.
Tipi Walter
10-05-2016, 23:38
I wish it was possible to edit these posts. The bears at rough ridge did NOT come back to visit us. Also, I forgot to mention that a lot of people don't really worry much about bears on the east coast. They're playing the odds and usually it works out. Using the precautions I listed greatly improves your odds but still doesnt ENSURE that you wont get a bear visit.
Cool post about Cohutta and Penitentiary Branch jct on the Jacks. I've done many trips into the Cohut and spent many nights at both the Penit/Jacks Camp and the Rough Ridge Camp a little downstream on the Jacks. Both are very nice campsites. And I guess in my Georgia and TN and NC treks I've probably seen 25 or 30 black bears in various configurations. Just recently I had one big beast walk right up to my tent and we talked.
While not wanting to be eaten of course, I see my bear relatives as the original inhabitants to what's left of our great forests and with them comes wilderness. Without bears we don't have wilderness. Will I defend my food to the death? No, but I might my tent.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-zSbZtz2/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20090-XL.jpg
Anyway, here's where the Penit Trail descends to jct the Jacks trail. This is around crossing 18/19 when going upstream on the Jacks.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-x5Jvh38/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20091-XL.jpg
The 19th Jacks crossing by the Penitentiary trail jct.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-kLJXHz4/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20094-XL.jpg
The big campsite at the Penit/Jacks jct.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-HC3b6kJ/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20097-XL.jpg
The Rough Ridge trail jct with the Jacks trail, a little downstream from the Penit jct. Okay, back to your regular programming.
...He then compounded the mistake by scraping up the spillage and insisting on burying it about 75 feet from our tents. Bears have a sense of smell that is so good they can smell food for miles....I took the canister and dribbled what was left on the remnant of the buried and spilled spot making them unappealing...
I added the emphasis to point out a common and serious misunderstanding of what bear spray is about. It is an irritant, NOT a repellent. Tests have shown bears are actually attracted to the smell of OC spray and further, if it's sprayed on the ground, they will roll in it like a dog. Spray it in their eyes and nose and it works great, but don't spray it around your campsite or you are inviting unwanted guests...
DuneElliot
10-06-2016, 08:47
Moose look docile but they are very irritable and can easily kill you as you say. I like moose (meese) but I don't want one to be anywhere close to me. I've been in moose country in the north east but never saw one on the trail (limited hiking experience up there). I did see a bunch of them when hiking in Alaska but we kept our distance from them.
I run into moose all the time, and have almost stumbled over them a couple of times...if it hadn't been for my dog I would never have seen the large bull in the aspens and would have been too close as I walked by on the trail. I'm careful with moose because they are a far more common animal to come across than bear (still haven't seen one while backpacking) and a big bull can be dangerous. Having a herding dog could be a good thing if I ever do surprise a moose that decides it doesn't like me.
My future SIL and I were fly fishing in the lower Kawuneeche Valley on the upper reaches of the Colorado River. He took off downstream and came upon 2 twin calves under a willow bush. Luckily mamma moose was not close by or it could have gotten ugly.
I have also seen them at 10K feet while hiking up to the Continental Divide. My friends had their dog with them. I figured we should back off fearing the cow moose would view the dog as a threat to her calves.
litetrek
10-06-2016, 17:45
I added the emphasis to point out a common and serious misunderstanding of what bear spray is about. It is an irritant, NOT a repellent. Tests have shown bears are actually attracted to the smell of OC spray and further, if it's sprayed on the ground, they will roll in it like a dog. Spray it in their eyes and nose and it works great, but don't spray it around your campsite or you are inviting unwanted guests...
That's interesting. I didn't know that. I guess the bears didn't come back because they thought we were too stupid to bother with.
Sarcasm the elf
10-06-2016, 17:48
That's interesting. I didn't know that. I guess the bears didn't come back because they thought we were too stupid to bother with.
That's my tactic as well. ;)
litetrek
10-06-2016, 17:52
Cool post about Cohutta and Penitentiary Branch jct on the Jacks. I've done many trips into the Cohut and spent many nights at both the Penit/Jacks Camp and the Rough Ridge Camp a little downstream on the Jacks. Both are very nice campsites. And I guess in my Georgia and TN and NC treks I've probably seen 25 or 30 black bears in various configurations. Just recently I had one big beast walk right up to my tent and we talked.
While not wanting to be eaten of course, I see my bear relatives as the original inhabitants to what's left of our great forests and with them comes wilderness. Without bears we don't have wilderness. Will I defend my food to the death? No, but I might my tent.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-zSbZtz2/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20090-XL.jpg
Anyway, here's where the Penit Trail descends to jct the Jacks trail. This is around crossing 18/19 when going upstream on the Jacks.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-x5Jvh38/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20091-XL.jpg
The 19th Jacks crossing by the Penitentiary trail jct.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-kLJXHz4/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20094-XL.jpg
The big campsite at the Penit/Jacks jct.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Quest-For-The-Connie/i-HC3b6kJ/0/XL/TRIP%20169%20097-XL.jpg
The Rough Ridge trail jct with the Jacks trail, a little downstream from the Penit jct. Okay, back to your regular programming.
I agree that the bears have a better claim to the territory than me. I actually like seeing them from about 200 feet. When they are closer to me than my hiking partner, they are too close for comfort.