Sleeping bag - Quilt

[Suzzz]

This spring I finally purchased a mummy style sleeping bag after years of using a regular tube style bag. But much to my disappointment, I find it too confining. I've never been claustrophobic before but sleeping in it made me feel trapped so I've been using it as a blanket for most of the summer and I must say that I quite like it. I'm not familiar with the use of a quilt but assuming it's a similar set up (except the quilt being smaller than a full sleeping bag) :

1- Do you use anything over your sleeping pad or do you sleep directly on it?

2- What about colder weather? Do you feel cold coming from the ground? And if so, how do you deal with it?

3- Pros and cons?

4- And last but not least... can you purchase a quilt or are they homemade? I've never seen them for sale anywhere.

Any other pertinent information on quilts would be greatly appreciated.

[nsherry61]

1 - I sleep directly on my pad, although I'm wearing my base layer, so it is not lots (or any) skin on my pad surface.
2 - Cold weather isn't a big issue. Ground insulation is really only from your pad anyway, so if your pad is sufficient, your fine.
3 - Pros and cons of what? I sleep with a quilt in the summer. I sleep with my 20* bag used like a quilt in spring and fall. I actually combine my summer quilt with my 20* bag for deep winter . . . along with any other clothing I need when it gets down below 0*F. I've heard people complain of some air getting under the edge of quilts in really cold conditions. I've heard others suggest it is never a problem. I zip my bag in sub zero temps. Haven't really tried only a quilt below zero because I don't have a sub-zero quilt. Quilts give more freedom of movement. The claustrophobia can go away with practice sleeping in your straight jacket bag.
4 - I'll let a zillion other forum posters share all their favorite quilt makes with you . . . Enlightened Equipment, Z-packs, Thermarest, Jacks R Better . . . the list goes on. No really any good main-stream quilt makers, mostly small cottage makers.

[Suzzz]

Thanks nsherry61!

[Studlintsean]

This spring I finally purchased a mummy style sleeping bag after years of using a regular tube style bag. But much to my disappointment, I find it too confining. I've never been claustrophobic before but sleeping in it made me feel trapped so I've been using it as a blanket for most of the summer and I must say that I quite like it. I'm not familiar with the use of a quilt but assuming it's a similar set up (except the quilt being smaller than a full sleeping bag) :

1- Do you use anything over your sleeping pad or do you sleep directly on it?

2- What about colder weather? Do you feel cold coming from the ground? And if so, how do you deal with it?

3- Pros and cons?

4- And last but not least... can you purchase a quilt or are they homemade? I've never seen them for sale anywhere.

Any other pertinent information on quilts would be greatly appreciated.

I will preface this with I owm a 20* Western Moutaineering Alpinelite and an Elightened Equipment 40* Revelation quilt.

1. I sleep directly on my pad but like Sherry I normally wear base layers (or more) except in the mid summer months when I wear clean shorts and a clean t-shirt.

2. While I don't feel cold coming from the ground (proper pad), in my experience and in my opinion (many will disagree), I prefer a bag when it gets cold. I am a furnace in general and especially while sleeping but have been chilled with my quilt at 50 degrees.

3. See above. Pros would be that you can vent and move around much better if you toss and turn in a quilt.

4. Look at Enlightened Equipment, Zpacks, Hammock Gear, etc for quilts. If you can sew, making a quilt should be easy (I do not sew).

Lastly, when I bought the WM bag I looked for one with lots of girth at the shoulders (I'm a decent thickness male) and found it much more comfortable than my previous bags which were a Montbell and North Face Cats Meow.

[garlic08]

Ditto post #2. If I'm not wearing a base layer, I put the clothes on the pad and sleep on those. The 30F quilt I bought from enLightened Equipment for a summer trip a few years ago is the best outdoor gear purchase I've made in many years.

One thing I really liked and didn't expect, the quilt never got dirty. Since I never actually slept on it, a few minutes of sunshine once in a while kept it fresh the whole trip and I've never needed to wash it.

Mine is long enough to form a hood over my head, and has snaps on the outer edges to make a sort of cocoon, so it works well that way in drafty conditions.

Ray Jardine sells synthetic quilt kits. Some talented folks make their own, or convert old sleeping bags by removing the hood and zipper. Hopefully Just Bill will chime in with some more info.

[jjozgrunt]

Firstly I use Enlightened Equipment quilts I have 2, a 30 F and a 50 F. When Combined with the straps you can buy they give me a rating of 10 F with a weight just on 2 lbs. They come with straps to attach them to the pad which allows you to cinch them closed in cold weather or open them up in warmer weather. They also keep the quilt in place as you move around.

1. I sleep directly on top of an insulated pad usually just in my sleeping clothes. I use an Exped Winterlite R-value 4.9 rated down to 1.4 F but I have never been that low.
2. Not if you are using an insulated pad suitable for the temperature you're walking in.
3. with my system, lighter, flexible, side sleeper so less confining. You need to add some sort of head wear as there is no hood. I added one of the hoods from EE.
4. Do a search on hiking quilts there a heaps of manufacturers. Enlightened Equip, ZPacks, Hammock Gear to name a few. Search here http://sectionhiker.com/backpacking-gear-directory-2/

[Hosh]

Another advocate for EE quilts. I too have their double strap system for quilt layering. I am a toss and turner, quilts suit me best. I sleep in light base layers on top of my BA Q-CoreSL.

Cold weather requires a good r value pad, head covering, and perhaps synthetic booties. Quilts are less efficient in terms of minimizing the volume of airspace to be heated, a tapered mummy is more efficient. EE's strap system is pretty good at cinching down the quilt around your bod. Quilts are less ideal for very low temps but they do excel at providing comfort over a wider range of temperatures. EE's Revelation can go from a open blanket configuration to an enclosed footbox with a loose mid to top section to a fully enclosed cocoon.

[MtDoraDave]

I was looking into a quilt because my 0 degree down bag is bulky and heavy. 650 fill, 4 lbs.
The EE quilts look great, and are raved about, so the website got put in my bookmarks.
I recently met a guy who has thru-hiked, and I picked his brain about this and that. I told him about my bag and that I was thinking of switching to a quilt, and he told me that he couldn't stay warm in cold weather with a quilt because it was drafty. That made me really think. I do a lot of tossing and turning during the night and a sleep system that didn't zip closed... I have my doubts (worries, fears) about.

[saltysack]

I'm a happy camper switching by out a Marmot helium 15* mummy bag to a 20* EE enigma... lil less warmth but way more versatile as also have a 45* JRB quilt to layer for winter...way warmer and same wt.....all my jackets already have hoods so didn't need anything that wouldn't already carry.....patagoochie Houdini and cap 4 hoody, OR Helium 2, montbell UL down parka, micro dome beenie and buff.


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[saltysack]

EE customer service is top notch!


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[Odd Man Out]

I have an Underground Quilt. Another great brand not yet mentioned. I also observed that the original poster had never seen quilts for sale anywhere. As pointed out this is a product made mostly by small cottage companies and not generally available in retail store. I would suggest that the same is true of other gear - tents, packs, stoves, etc... if you are not checking out these small companies you may miss out on some of the best and most innovative gear options.

[SWODaddy]

This spring I finally purchased a mummy style sleeping bag after years of using a regular tube style bag. But much to my disappointment, I find it too confining. I've never been claustrophobic before but sleeping in it made me feel trapped so I've been using it as a blanket for most of the summer and I must say that I quite like it. I'm not familiar with the use of a quilt but assuming it's a similar set up (except the quilt being smaller than a full sleeping bag) :

1- Do you use anything over your sleeping pad or do you sleep directly on it?

2- What about colder weather? Do you feel cold coming from the ground? And if so, how do you deal with it?

3- Pros and cons?

4- And last but not least... can you purchase a quilt or are they homemade? I've never seen them for sale anywhere.

Any other pertinent information on quilts would be greatly appreciated.

1. Right on the pad. I tried using a cover but found I had to fiddle with it too much.

2. No. Key is just preventing drafts. The elastic straps which Enlightened Equipment provides with their quilts are great for this....it also lets you vent if you're getting hot.

3. Super light, versatile. I'm having a hard time thinking of a con - here's one: They don't cover your head, so you'll need a hat.

4. Purchase. I have quilts from Enlightened Equipment and Loco Libre. They're both excellent.

[SWODaddy]

1 - I sleep directly on my pad, although I'm wearing my base layer, so it is not lots (or any) skin on my pad surface.
2 - Cold weather isn't a big issue. Ground insulation is really only from your pad anyway, so if your pad is sufficient, your fine.
3 - Pros and cons of what? I sleep with a quilt in the summer. I sleep with my 20* bag used like a quilt in spring and fall. I actually combine my summer quilt with my 20* bag for deep winter . . . along with any other clothing I need when it gets down below 0*F. I've heard people complain of some air getting under the edge of quilts in really cold conditions. I've heard others suggest it is never a problem. I zip my bag in sub zero temps. Haven't really tried only a quilt below zero because I don't have a sub-zero quilt. Quilts give more freedom of movement. The claustrophobia can go away with practice sleeping in your straight jacket bag.
4 - I'll let a zillion other forum posters share all their favorite quilt makes with you . . . Enlightened Equipment, Z-packs, Thermarest, Jacks R Better . . . the list goes on. No really any good main-stream quilt makers, mostly small cottage makers.

Addressing the highlighted text - I think this is 100% a width issue from people/manufacturers trying to shave too many ounces. I'm a big guy and ordered a wide quilt - I've never had a problem.

[egilbe]

Addressing the highlighted text - I think this is 100% a width issue from people/manufacturers trying to shave too many ounces. I'm a big guy and ordered a wide quilt - I've never had a problem.

yep,been my experience, too

[Suzzz]

Thanks guys! Using my mummy as a blanket/quilt on short hikes is working well for now but for a longer hike it would be nice to find an actual quilt to save space and weight in my pack. I'll be checking out the websites you all recommended.

[nsherry61]

. . . it would be nice to find an actual quilt to save space and weight in my pack. . .
Don't set your expectations too high. A quilt of similar quality (fill and shell fabric) to your sleeping bag will not save all that much weight and volume, maybe 10-15%.

The big difference is quilts are more comfortable to sleep under in many conditions and also simpler and less expensive to make while being, yes, a little bit lighter and smaller volume.

[Hikingjim]

A quilt and sleeping bag open are the same thing basically. The sleeping bag is just wider and probably has wasted width
Some people like the cords to tie the quilt down, so you can experiment with that in colder weather, but I don't find them to be beneficial
I have a hammock gear burrow 20. It's good for me at about 30f with an average base layer, and I can easily go to 15-20f with a light puffy and a cap on (sleeping pad value is 4). When it gets a bit colder, I am going to add in my 1 lb costco down throw ($20!) and see if it works out.
The only thing I don't like about my quilt is the horizontal baffles. The down tends to work its way toward the sides of the quilt, and I often have to optimize it before I go to sleep... which is a bit annoying

[saltysack]

A quilt and sleeping bag open are the same thing basically. The sleeping bag is just wider and probably has wasted width
Some people like the cords to tie the quilt down, so you can experiment with that in colder weather, but I don't find them to be beneficial
I have a hammock gear burrow 20. It's good for me at about 30f with an average base layer, and I can easily go to 15-20f with a light puffy and a cap on (sleeping pad value is 4). When it gets a bit colder, I am going to add in my 1 lb costco down throw ($20!) and see if it works out.
The only thing I don't like about my quilt is the horizontal baffles. The down tends to work its way toward the sides of the quilt, and I often have to optimize it before I go to sleep... which is a bit annoying

Another reason I chose EE instead....vertical baffles


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[MuddyWaters]

Only a problem if underfilled to start with
Best sleeping bags in world have........horizontal baffles

Some quiltmakers underfill in order to vie for lightest. EE did this, also reduced length, till found out it was too short and began making longerbagain.

Flat footboxes such as sewn by lazy quiltmakers like EE and zpacks are a joke. Not suitable unless turn on side. These quilts severly lack foot insulation, and what the have thins if lay on back. Drawstring footboxes dont have problem.

Quilts used to be 50" wide and for hammocks. Today people get extra widebones that have little savings over a bag, and dint work nearly as wrll whe temp actually gets cold.

[saltysack]

Only a problem if underfilled to start with
Best sleeping bags in world have........horizontal baffles

Some quiltmakers underfill in order to vie for lightest. EE did this, also reduced length, till found out it was too short and began making longerbagain.

Flat footboxes such as sewn by lazy quiltmakers like EE and zpacks are a joke. Not suitable unless turn on side. These quilts severly lack foot insulation, and what the have thins if lay on back.

I wear size 12-13 shoe, stomach and back sleeper.....didn't notice foot box being tight...I also got a long wide 20* enigma 21 oz according to tag...


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[MuddyWaters]

Look at katabatic quilt footbox
Look at wm bag
Look at hammock gear footbox even

If you need sleep sox or booties, your quilt sux

[Just Bill]

This spring I finally purchased a mummy style sleeping bag after years of using a regular tube style bag. But much to my disappointment, I find it too confining. I've never been claustrophobic before but sleeping in it made me feel trapped so I've been using it as a blanket for most of the summer and I must say that I quite like it. I'm not familiar with the use of a quilt but assuming it's a similar set up (except the quilt being smaller than a full sleeping bag) :

1- Do you use anything over your sleeping pad or do you sleep directly on it?

2- What about colder weather? Do you feel cold coming from the ground? And if so, how do you deal with it?

3- Pros and cons?

4- And last but not least... can you purchase a quilt or are they homemade? I've never seen them for sale anywhere.

Any other pertinent information on quilts would be greatly appreciated.

Pretty well covered thus far, but since Garlic was so sweet to think of me :D

1-personal taste- don't matter much. Most quilt users thus far are generally backpackers used to sleeping in clothes. Unlike your sleeping bag insulation- your pad is not affected by body oils so no need to worry about protecting your pad from you.

2-This is actually a minor problem with quilts that many people miss or misunderstand...

A-The point of a quilt is to eliminate the part of a regular bag you are laying on, and instead rely on the pad to insulate you there. So the pad must be rated to match your expected temps.

B-What isn't thought of/talked about much is that you can probably use a regular or narrow sized pad with a sleeping bag with little issue as the mummy bag wraps you 360*.
Many people talk about drafts being an issue in an undersized quilt or without pad straps... so they get a bigger/wider quilt to "seal" the drafts. However if you are sleeping on a narrow pad you may also be introducing some cold air into the sleep system because the quilt is draped over the ground. A wider pad is often a bigger comfort, warmer system, and little weight difference overall that can help seal that area along the side of the pad more effectively than pad straps or wider quilts.

A large neo-air is 4 ounces heavier than a regular width. However that extra width (and length) is more comfortable and will help you seal your sleep system better than simply having your quilt hang off onto the ground.
It likely would allow you to stick with a regular width vs an XW quilt for the average male. In an EE quilt that's about 2.5 ounces saved (straps may not be needed too). So all in all... you may be better off with a wider pad at a slight bump in weight on balance than a 20" pad with a wide quilt. If one of the advantages of a quilt is more room... I'm not a fan of pad straps personally for that reason. If you need to strap yourself too tightly to get a seal- odds are decent that with only two straps you will find that the quilt will pucker a bit around each elbow and let in some draft there on a narrow pad.

To me that's good UL philosophy overall... wide pad is more comfy and as a tradeoff you don't need excessive quilt width/pad straps unless you're a fairly big person. If you thrash around, you may want the straps regardless, but the wider pad will give you a better ground seal and more effective insulation there than trying to get good insulation out of a flat cut quilt at the sides. Mummy bags are differentially cut to provide loft at each point... a quilt is not. So when you tuck that quilt tight around your sides.. you do reduce loft there overall.

One of these days I'll draw some pictures, lol. But I think around 30* the advantages of quilts fade a bit vs a mummy.

3-
Pros- quilts are more versatile, especially in warmer temps (30* or up). They have more room and feel more to many like sleeping in a bed.
Quilts are ideal for long distance hikes where you cannot select gear based upon the 7 day weather forecast, but upon a several week range or average expectations. This is the primary reason they have surged in popularity in the LD hiking and cottage gear community, but remain mostly unseen in standard commercial lines. Since your headwear (hood) is not built in, you can add or subtract headwear to your system more easily. And you can always wear your hat around camp... but hard to put your mummy hood on when you are chilled.

All sleep gear has an effective temperature range. Quilts do much better at coping with higher ends of that range. Mummies excel at the low end of their range.
Basically- the most popular choice is usually a 20* bag, so let's look at that... a mummy will work excellent at 20* and you may struggle a bit to match that rating with your quilt. Your quilt will also require sufficient headwear to match the rating, a mummy already has that built in.
Now the same gear at even 40*... you're going to struggle with that mummy, finding yourself zipping, unzipping, flagging your foot out, sticking an arm out, etc.
But a quilt is again, easier to vent... you can crack the footbox a hair, spread it out, shrug a shoulder out, remove a layer of hat, etc.
Take those same quilts into some warmer 50* nights... and you'll be cursing that mummy bag and loving that quilt.

So if you had a quiver of sleeping bags as many of us do... and you're out for a weekend or a week with a known range. A mummy is typically the more efficient choice overall from many angles. It will tend to excel in true winter as well by a good bit. On the other hand for the typical LD bigger trail hiker out in mixed summer/three season conditions... a quilt is much more efficient following basic 80/20 rule types of review. In addition if you only own ONE piece of quality sleep gear... a quilt is the most bang for the buck... provided you add in the cost of the accessories you'll need to make it work.

Cons-
You often do not save weight or bulk. Keep in mind that headwear, pad selection, and other items may weigh more with a quilt vs a mummy. You have to look apples to apples on function. More often than not, even simply adding up a quilt plus a puffy/insulated balaclava is equal to the weight of a quality mummy bag itself.

There is a learning curve, and you need increased knowledge of sleep systems overall to "push" a quilt into it's low end of the temp range. Although it's only a few ounce penalty to jump 10* or so... at some point there are fatal flaws in a bad quilt sleep system that will ruin your night as temps drop near freezing.

You can always zip back up your mummy bag when it gets really cold and turn it back to a mummy... so you can use a mummy as a decent quilt, but you can never turn a quilt into a mummy.

However, assuming you understand everything involved... a quilt based sleep system can be used effectively to about 20* and will give you more versatility in your overall kit. So even if the scale does not show a savings, I feel there can be tremendous gains in value, comfort, versatility in the system overall.
A wider pad, extra headwear, wider range of clothing selection, etc... give you more options than simply a pad+mummy system even if on paper they weigh the same.

In my opinion, around 20* is that flip point where I tend to look to the mummy bag on the ground. in a hammock, I would probably push a bit further as the UQ is doing the bulk of the work and mummies are not too great in a hammock.

4- Pretty covered, though I don't know Canadian specific vendors.

Final bits....

Keep in mind, we are talking about the limits of a system here. Most folks will not be pushing those limits much.
To be blunt, as it often costs you little more than a few ounces in a good down bag/quilt to bump the rating up... if it's going to be chilly that's your cheapest insurance.
as we often say, "If you're asking the question, the answer is no".

I would recommend folks use a quilt in the summer. A mummy has no real value and too many downsides. Since it's decent out... odds of you really messing up are low.
And your summer quilt layers over your three season quilt pretty well, so that's a real added value advantage at this temp range.

If you find you like the system and you'd like to push it further... it's a coin flip to about 30/40* or so on which is better for the average user.
But a good season of summer use (30+ nights) would give you a good idea how you do with a quilt before you try to push it.

Below freezing... unless you know what you are doing... buying a mummy bag that is 10* warmer (20* for women and folks over 45/50) is still the best advice and safest bet.
Other than the temporary pain in your wallet... the downsides to owning a good quality down mummy bag when it's truly cold are very low.

[saltysack]

Look at katabatic quilt footbox
Look at wm bag
Look at hammock gear footbox even

If you need sleep sox or booties, your quilt sux

Tell us how you really feel about EE......[emoji23]


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[saltysack]

For the $$ I'm happy with my EE...-~$300 EE vs $500 Katabolic.....I'm just a weekend warrior....


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[DuneElliot]

Only a problem if underfilled to start with
Best sleeping bags in world have........horizontal baffles

Some quiltmakers underfill in order to vie for lightest. EE did this, also reduced length, till found out it was too short and began making longerbagain.

Flat footboxes such as sewn by lazy quiltmakers like EE and zpacks are a joke. Not suitable unless turn on side. These quilts severly lack foot insulation, and what the have thins if lay on back. Drawstring footboxes dont have problem.

Quilts used to be 50" wide and for hammocks. Today people get extra widebones that have little savings over a bag, and dint work nearly as wrll whe temp actually gets cold.

My EE Convert has a draw-string footbox, as does the Revelation. The Enigma is the only one that doesn't, and it's not sewn flat but it is a box shape.

[Just Bill]

Look at katabatic quilt footbox
Look at wm bag
Look at hammock gear footbox even

If you need sleep sox or booties, your quilt sux

A high quality shaped, articulated, and differentially cut foot box is a work of art. It will be far superior to a quilt ESPECIALLY for a back sleeper. Side sleeper... no pointy toes for the down to shift off.

That said... I would expect to pay at least $100 for that feature... I sleep on my side anyway.
And down booties for camp are kinda comfy and make it handy in the winter to easily slip out of your hammock/bag/etc. with em on...at about $50 a pair; so not a bad choice for some folks either.

All depends... I won't disagree... there are lots of things that make a $500-900 down sleeping bag a masterpiece of engineering, design, and craftsmanship worth owning that go far beyond just tossing in 950 fill.
And it's real gall darn tough to open up an articulated footbox where a drawstring one is stupid simple to make and vent in the summertime... but come winter nothing like the former. C

ourse most of us don't really camp much beyond a few nights in real winter either.

I wouldn't mind a Tesla or a Mercedes, or a Porsche... but I get around just fine in a used KIA :D


For the $$ I'm happy with my EE...-~$300 EE vs $500 Katabolic.....I'm just a weekend warrior....


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[saltysack]

A high quality shaped, articulated, and differentially cut foot box is a work of art. It will be far superior to a quilt ESPECIALLY for a back sleeper. Side sleeper... no pointy toes for the down to shift off.

That said... I would expect to pay at least $100 for that feature... I sleep on my side anyway.
And down booties for camp are kinda comfy and make it handy in the winter to easily slip out of your hammock/bag/etc. with em on...at about $50 a pair; so not a bad choice for some folks either.

All depends... I won't disagree... there are lots of things that make a $500-900 down sleeping bag a masterpiece of engineering, design, and craftsmanship worth owning that go far beyond just tossing in 950 fill.
And it's real gall darn tough to open up an articulated footbox where a drawstring one is stupid simple to make and vent in the summertime... but come winter nothing like the former. C

ourse most of us don't really camp much beyond a few nights in real winter either.

I wouldn't mind a Tesla or a Mercedes, or a Porsche... but I get around just fine in a used KIA :D

+1 on the Tesla!


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[MuddyWaters]

Not $100
Most footboxes are simply roundish, and tall enough to lie on back with toes pointing up.

Like the summerlite so beautifully shows

The loft at foot in a wm bag is 2x the loft on rest of body, because ...feet....need....more...insulation.

Again, note all the best bags in world...have horizontal baffles.

Sone makers dont want to make you the best quilt, they want to claim lightest, performance be damned . O K until it costs $480 and you still need 3 oz down bootie to survive its rated temp.

36726

[Venchka]

+1 on the Tesla!


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Hawkins, TX to Cimarron Canyon SP, NM. Daylight to dusk. September 1, 2016. How long would that trip take in a Tesla?
OP: Back to mummy bags.
Mummy bags come in many sizes and gender specific models. If it's not too late, perhaps you could exchange the bag for one with more room?
Good luck.
Wayne


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[Just Bill]

Not $100
Most footboxes are simply roundish, and tall enough to lie on back with toes pointing up.

Like the summerlite so beautifully shows

The loft at foot in a wm bag is 2x the loft on rest of body, because ...feet....need....more...insulation.

Again, note all the best bags in world...have horizontal baffles.

Sone makers dont want to make you the best quilt, they want to claim lightest, performance be damned . O K until it costs $480 and you still need 3 oz down bootie to survive its rated temp.

36726

Really the better page to look at is this one- http://www.westernmountaineering.com/product-details/sleeping-bag-fill-construction/

Quilts are cut flat. Then manipulated into a quilt shape via a zipper or sewn footbox.
They will never, ever be a differential cut multi-chambered mummy bag. It's that stuff that makes the horizontal baffle system work generally speaking.

(mostly) apples to apples.
You are correct, the MH bag is a far superior footbox and general design. You may call it a simple round cut footbox but you aren't quite understanding that the elegance of it (from a design perspective) is that it looks that simple. Each of those chambers gradually taper and then flare at the bottom of the bag and are differentially cut layers of fabric and baffles.

And yes...
$400 for the WM- http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_Western-Mountaineering-SummerLite-32-Degree-Sleeping-Bag_10027670_10208_10000001_-1_
$240 for the EE enigma- http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/enigma/

That said- this is a perfect example of the turning point of quilts vs mummies.
That WM bag is 19 ounces and $400.
At first you might say well the EE (30* reg/reg/850 fill) is $240 and 16 ounces so winner right?

But real apples to apples...
EE enigma- 16oz and $240 +
$50 and 1.5 ounces for a hoodlum http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/hoodlum/
Now puts you a bit closer at $290 and 17.5 oz.
Let's add your booties for another $55 and 2 oz (for the 4 oz apex) http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/sidekicks/

So grand total you're talking- $345 and 19.5 ounces.
Close enough on weight and cost... so back to value.

You buy the WM bag because you back sleep and it works for you. That's fine. I might make the same choice too... I would use it enough to justify the purchase. If I have a walk then sleep style... it's nice to keep it simple with one piece of gear. And if I plan to push that 32* rating a hair into the mid 20's... well I'd be able to do that with the WM, but not the quilt.

But if I hang out at camp a bit... I can wear the hood and/or the booties.
Since my feet sweat a good bit- I can use synthetic booties there, but take advantage of down elsewhere. Same goes for the hat... I don't need to worry about sweating or breathing into my down.
When I pop up in the morning I can "take" part of my bag with me so to speak. I can't do that with my mummy... but it's not too hard to cook breakfast or break most of camp from a mummy either if you know what you're doing. Though that midnight bathroom run is much improved with the quilt system.

But let's say the next trip it's 40* out.
The quilt user can send home or leave home the booties...
About 45* the quilt user could leave home the hoodlum too.
About 55* that WM bag starts getting mildly unpleasant to use but the quilt is now 3 ounces lighter again and easier to vent.

About 60* both of them are probably going on the gear shelf and it's time for summer gear.

There is not a right or wrong. No real cost or weight advantage either way.
I think were there is a difference is style and value.
If a mummy fits your style, or if you're talking pushing the low end- no contest.
But if a quilt fits your style and you're looking for maximum value out of a total system of pieces... it's hard to debate that functionality over a wider range.

If I had each on the shelf... I'd probably take the mummy for a weekend. I'd hem and haw over a weeklong. Spring hike going to warmer weather- quilt. Fall hike moving to winter weather- mummy.

[saltysack]

Really the better page to look at is this one- http://www.westernmountaineering.com/product-details/sleeping-bag-fill-construction/

Quilts are cut flat. Then manipulated into a quilt shape via a zipper or sewn footbox.
They will never, ever be a differential cut multi-chambered mummy bag. It's that stuff that makes the horizontal baffle system work generally speaking.

(mostly) apples to apples.
You are correct, the MH bag is a far superior footbox and general design. You may call it a simple round cut footbox but you aren't quite understanding that the elegance of it (from a design perspective) is that it looks that simple. Each of those chambers gradually taper and then flare at the bottom of the bag and are differentially cut layers of fabric and baffles.

And yes...
$400 for the WM- http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_Western-Mountaineering-SummerLite-32-Degree-Sleeping-Bag_10027670_10208_10000001_-1_
$240 for the EE enigma- http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/enigma/

That said- this is a perfect example of the turning point of quilts vs mummies.
That WM bag is 19 ounces and $400.
At first you might say well the EE (30* reg/reg/850 fill) is $240 and 16 ounces so winner right?

But real apples to apples...
EE enigma- 16oz and $240 +
$50 and 1.5 ounces for a hoodlum http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/hoodlum/
Now puts you a bit closer at $290 and 17.5 oz.
Let's add your booties for another $55 and 2 oz (for the 4 oz apex) http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/sidekicks/

So grand total you're talking- $345 and 19.5 ounces.
Close enough on weight and cost... so back to value.

You buy the WM bag because you back sleep and it works for you. That's fine. I might make the same choice too... I would use it enough to justify the purchase. If I have a walk then sleep style... it's nice to keep it simple with one piece of gear. And if I plan to push that 32* rating a hair into the mid 20's... well I'd be able to do that with the WM, but not the quilt.

But if I hang out at camp a bit... I can wear the hood and/or the booties.
Since my feet sweat a good bit- I can use synthetic booties there, but take advantage of down elsewhere. Same goes for the hat... I don't need to worry about sweating or breathing into my down.
When I pop up in the morning I can "take" part of my bag with me so to speak. I can't do that with my mummy... but it's not too hard to cook breakfast or break most of camp from a mummy either if you know what you're doing. Though that midnight bathroom run is much improved with the quilt system.

But let's say the next trip it's 40* out.
The quilt user can send home or leave home the booties...
About 45* the quilt user could leave home the hoodlum too.
About 55* that WM bag starts getting mildly unpleasant to use but the quilt is now 3 ounces lighter again and easier to vent.

About 60* both of them are probably going on the gear shelf and it's time for summer gear.

There is not a right or wrong. No real cost or weight advantage either way.
I think were there is a difference is style and value.
If a mummy fits your style, or if you're talking pushing the low end- no contest.
But if a quilt fits your style and you're looking for maximum value out of a total system of pieces... it's hard to debate that functionality over a wider range.

If I had each on the shelf... I'd probably take the mummy for a weekend. I'd hem and haw over a weeklong. Spring hike going to warmer weather- quilt. Fall hike moving to winter weather- mummy.

I bought long tall and I'll 5'11" 210 so don't really need that as can easily pull over my head and it all my layers have hoods alread.....enigma seems to have a more substantial foot box.....


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[saltysack]

I bought long tall and I'll 5'11" 210 so don't really need that as can easily pull over my head and it all my layers have hoods alread.....enigma seems to have a more substantial foot box.....


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Hoodlum that is


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[saltysack]

I bought long tall and I'll 5'11" 210 so don't really need that as can easily pull over my head and it all my layers have hoods alread.....enigma seems to have a more substantial foot box.....


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Hoodlum that is...


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[MuddyWaters]

Note difference in hammockgear and EE enigma footbox:

One is sensible....

3672736728

[saltysack]

Note difference in hammockgear and EE enigma footbox:

One is sensible....

3672736728

I see what your saying....I guess since mine is a wide/long is foot box lil larger?....maybe not..I'll check it out later when get home......I almost bought the 20* burrow but didn't get a response from them for several days when I left a message with a question...EE was easy to deal with and expedited my order for a planed trip. Lil cheaper and inc pad straps with more color options....I have no complaints...I agree if I did a lot of yearly trips I'd buy an oversized WM 0* or 10* bag...the few yearly cold weather trips I do doubling up quilts is plenty sufficient and don't need hood or booties....probably a similar weight as well....

[Suzzz]

Wow guys, thanks for all the pertinent information. And thanks to you Just Bill for taking the time to explain in such detail.

[Just Bill]

Note difference in hammockgear and EE enigma footbox:

One is sensible....

3672736728

Not having seen either in person...
That's hard to say actually.

I 100% agree with you regarding the round bottom being the better shape for a back sleeper.
What I can't see is the construction technique.

Simply sewing a circle of down into the bottom of a bag (like a stuff sack) doesn't do it. You get pretty good cold sinks and drafts at each seam.
It fills the hole but it would be easy to see there being zero insulation in that HG at the seam where the body meets the foot piece and again if that is a sewn thru baffle as it appears.
While you may get a cold spot at a pointy toe in the EE, if that is a simpler square shape but has some differential cuts or shaped baffles it would (potentially) be the warmer footbox.

From UGQ's website:http://www.undergroundquilts.com/blog/default.html

Snap & Draw Or Zipper & Draw: This is the most common foot box style and provides maximum versatility allowing you to lay the quilt out fully open, create a partially closed foot box for venting to match the ambient temperatures to your preferences, or fully closed for colder weather use. A series of high strength snaps or a zipper is installed on the sides at the bottom of the quilt allowing you to join the two bottom edges together. A draw cord is installed across the bottom of the quilt allowing cinch the bottom of the quilt closed. There will also remain a small hole at the bottom of the foot box which will have the possibility for drafting unless plugged by some means.
Flat Sewn: This foot box option provides additional warmth but at the sacrifice of the versatility of the Snap/Zipper & Draw foot box. The Snap/Zipper & Draw Cord have been removed and the bottom of the quilt has been simply sewn shut.

Insulated Foot Box: This foot box option provides a full and continuous insulation envelope in the foot box making for some HAPPY TOES!!! This will provide the ultimate in warmth for those cold weather quilts but at the sacrifice of versatility and is typically slightly heavier than the other foot box options due to additional down and fabrics.


Hammock Gear seems to have a better footbox design overall for low money if you're looking for that feature.
That said- take all that with a grain of salt as unless I had them in my hand it's hard to say how they are actually built.

And if you do find yourself with the cold toe blues as a back sleeper- we used to put a little blue foam in our sock to solve that problem in scouts if you are otherwise happy with the tradeoffs of a quilt.
I think that's what people need to realize- Quilts are not (usually) just a mummy with the hood and zipper cut off. They are a different piece of gear.

On one end you got a basic Apex synthetic flat quilt like a prodigy from EE. Literally a flat comforter with the end closed up to make a "footbox"
On the high end you got a Katabatic Gear type product that is basically a mummy bag with some parts trimmed out.

As always- you get what you pay for- the question is if you understand what you're paying for.
I admire the katabatic gear but I'd be buying a WM bag or similar before I bought a $500 quilt. IF I lived out west... I may feel differently if I was hiking often in high country along ridges and... wait for it... katabatic zones.
If I'm buying a summer into shoulder season quilt- I want simplicity, versatility, and low cost- understanding that it is "Just a Quilt" and will do what I expect it to do and little more.

That said... lots of folks sleep cold and have cold feet. So if you find you don't ever use the footbox in any mode but closed up or sleep very comfy as of now in your mummy used as a quilt even in warm temps... you may want to look to a quilt with a well made and permanently closed footbox.

[skylark]

I use a Camp-Mor 20F down bag with a broken zipper as a quilt. I sleep on a Neo-Air pad. I tend to move around a lot when I sleep, side, back, side, back, stomach, etc. I sleep very well with this setup. A couple of things that can improve comfort with a quilt:

Typically one of my elbows will fall off the pad onto the groundsheet. A seat pad put at one side where your arm will touch the ground helps keep the ground chill off. I use a FedEx bubble wrap envelope as a seat pad.

The quilt does fine in insulating every part of your body except your head above your mouth. A puffy (down sweater) laid on top of your head down to your nose makes for an extremely warm and comfortable sleep. Other pieces of clothing would also work.

[saltysack]

After thinking about muddy's post thought I'd try both type of quilts out to see if my toes felt any different....not really a proper comparison as the HG seems to be lil different in footbox as not true flat quilt as the JRB Sierra stealth. My toes didn't feel any more restricted in the EE but could tell down gets compressed more or displaced at your toes which would make for colder feet....for what it's worth I'm very satisfied with my EE....material and craftsmanship is top notch...bring a cold sleeper the 20* EE enigma is sufficient for me to around 30 with light/med base layer....if temps forecasted to be under 30 I'll carry both.....http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161028/055de74e97c3e9ebc0d2e53a5cb03046.jpg


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[theinfamousj]

I have a Jacks R Better Sierra Sniveler because it is wearable.

In the summer I sleep with it opened up as a blanket. In shoulder seasons, I make up the foot box and might even snap it around my neck. For winter, I have a zero degree traditional bag. I actually already started with the bag and then got the quilt later.

1. I use a silk sleeping bag liner with a rectangular foot box. It is a comfort thing.

2. My sleeping pad is appropriate to the weather. So no cold from below. I am a petite lady so am able to tuck the sides of the quilt under me if necessary. My quilt comes with loops to use to tie it under my sleeping pad if necessary. I have never found it necessary.

3. Pro: lighter weight than my bag and can be a camp puffy. Con: people are confused about why it isn't a sleeping bag.

4. I know how to sew and drew up plans for a wearable synthetic quilt similar to what I have, but I didn't want to deal with down and baffles so I ended up buying mine from Jacks R Better. Happy to share my plans with you if you want to give sewing a shot.

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[Suzzz]

Thanks for the offer to share your plans theinfamousj but like you I'd rather avoid the ordeal of sewing my own even though I could if I wanted to.

I may buy a quilt eventually (one should never say never) but after reading all the comments here, I came to the conclusion that for now I'll stick to my mummy style sleeping bag as it seems to me that it's the more versatile option. Here's my reasoning :

1- According to most opinions here, a quilt isn't much lighter than a sleeping bag and takes about the same amount of space so only a marginal gain there.

2- I already have a good quality sleeping bag, buying a quilt means one would have to stay home in a closet. Having double gear doesn't seem like the best use of my money in this situation. Depending on the weather, I can use my sleeping bag as a blanket/quilt when it's warm (as I did all this past summer), tuck it in when it's cool or zip it up as a mummy when it gets cold to avoid drafts. I don't like feeling trapped in my sleeping bag but I like being warm to sleep so I think I can deal with that every once in a while.

3- In the event that the weather takes a sudden turn while I'm on the trail and all I have is a quilt, I'd sure be missing that sleeping bag sitting in a closet at home.

4- My sleeping pad is a NeoAir Xtherm with a 5.7 R value so no worries about getting cold there. I can probably use my sleeping bag as a quilt for quite some time before feeling the need to zip it up.