View Full Version : inconsiderate vs ignorant
I know this topic has been beaten to death on here, but I recently experienced a situation while on a 10 day section hike that I wanted to share because of the way in which in ended...
My partner and I pulled 21 miles on the first day of our trip because it was raining all day (this was a few weeks ago when Hurricane Matthew came up the coast), so there wasn't much to do other than walk. We had just entered the southern part of SNP, so camping spots were limited and we decided to push on after dark into Calf Mountain Shelter, arriving a little after 9:00pm. I had no intention of staying in the shelter, as I've only slept in a few in over 1000 miles on the AT, but my buddy was dragging and was very much looking forward to getting there, throwing down his pad, and going to sleep. It's pretty much all he talked about for the last few miles in a cold, dark rain. We expected others to be there, and understand that space is first come/first served, but we still figured it wouldn't be full.
But as we walked up, wet and tired, we saw that it was indeed full. Full of tents. Three of them to be exact, one of which was a huge 2-3 person tent. Between the tents and their gear, there was literally no space left. My buddy sat at the picnic table right next to the shelter, exhausted and over it, and let his thoughts be heard, but none of them stirred or stuck their heads out to offer to make room. I went about hanging my hammock and then found a spot for him to set up his tent, which he did, and everything was fine...but it was really frustrating, particularly to my partner. There is no way they didn't hear us come in or hear us talking about it, but they all held their breaths and didn't move a muscle until we left the table. The next morning, they packed up early and we never even got a look at them before they broke camp.
Fast forward a couple of days, and we're taking a late afternoon break at one of the huts before moving on for a few more miles, and a guy who was already set up behind the shelter walks up as we're putting our packs back on to inform us that he was one of the people tenting in the shelter that first night. He said he heard us when we got there, was surprised that anyone else showed up that late, and told us that he "didn't understand hiking etiquette" when he set up his tent in the shelter. He said that he felt badly as he listened to us set up in the rain, that he would never make that mistake again, and he apologized multiple times.
I would have thought that not setting up a huge tent in the shelter falls more under the lines of common sense than "hiking etiquette," however the fact that this dude acknowledged it and owned it when we never would have known it was him was a stand-up thing to do, and tells me that he genuinely did not know he was being inconsiderate. It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.
ADVStrom14
10-31-2016, 12:07
It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.
As a new hiker, I will honestly say, while I know that it is not a good idea to set up a tent in a shelter, there may be some things that I do that may not be the "right" thing to do. Truth be told, that is one of my biggest fears as I get started. I have been on some forums and seen some newbies get reamed for something they "should know better than to do" when in actuality, they didn't know better because they had not reached that part of their research yet. I read a lot and do a lot of research so I am learning things every day but most of it I have learned because of my reading and research and not because anyone bothered to take the time to teach me. (Or that there was anyone to teach me for that matter.)
Time Zone
10-31-2016, 12:21
Everyone has their blind spots, something often forgotten or unappreciated by the more experienced (which is a blind spot in and of itself! oh how meta ...)
I agree, that was a stand-up thing to do. In theory, he could have been acting ignorant to save face, not knowing you didn't get a good look at him that morning. But you might as well give him the benefit of the doubt.
dudeijuststarted
10-31-2016, 12:27
yeah there's alot of BS out there. you can lecture one group, and deal with the same thing the next day. last year in MD a few city slickers walked up to the shelter by the highway overpass there and starting unloading tents and booze. they were wearing basically clothes to go clubbing in. I asked them to switch sites with me so they could party and i could sleep, and they got all defensive and standoffish, completely unaware that the AT and its shelter system wasn't for partying. this is one reason hammocks can be a dream. pitch your fly, pitch your hammock nice and dry, no need for flat earth.
johnnybgood
10-31-2016, 12:39
Knowing that shelter he's lucky the resident mice didn't chew a hole in his tent.
Your point is a valid one though, as there seems to be an epidemic of what I call a lack of common sense.
The reality is that our expections we have for others in the hiking world are lkely higher than we admit to.
MuddyWaters
10-31-2016, 12:40
Many people are just dumba$$es.
My wife has cousins that throw beer caps and cigarrette butts into yard around their trailer. When they came to our house and did that, I was ready to beat the #$@& out of them.
Some people are just ignorant and stupid and uncaring, and will always be.
Others just make mistakes and learn from them
You could have hung your hammock across the front of the shelter for spite :)
Personally I'd have said something directly to the tenters, not just being loud enough to be overheard.
Good for the one hiker for apologizing. Hope you thanked him for being honest.
Really I think a lot of people are just clueless. I hike the local trails near my home and constantly come across people who walk two abreast forcing oncoming hikers off the trail.
The hiking etiquette standard and consideration I hold myself to is when showing up at a AT shelter or camping area in the rain after dark after 9 pm I expect the shelter to be full or near capacity in the early fall especially in NPs so I anticipate camping away from the shelter or others. When others are already not stirring in their tents after 9 pm it's time for me to not use the facilities directly near them or only do so with consideration.
When I know ignorance is involved it helps me to understand the situation but it does not excuses one's behavior even my own ignorance.
Seems you met someone who genuinely considers his behavior having impact on others.
Gambit McCrae
10-31-2016, 13:39
My question to myself is always "would the guy next to me mind me doing "this""? If I don't know I just ask, nothing wrong with ever saying - hey man I don't know if this is cool or not but I want to dot dot dot...is that ok?
Slo-go'en
10-31-2016, 14:18
Sad to say, but there needs to be a sign which says "No tents in the huts". $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for 1st violation.
pilgrimskywheel
10-31-2016, 14:36
I find the occupancy ratings for shelters being posted on their walls and in the guidebooks VERY helpful in this regard. If the shelter shelters six and three people have sprawled out taking it over well, don't blame me cause your reeling it in and moving over. Conversely, if the shelter shelters six and seven people are in there well, hope you're packing a tent. I like shelters - they draw the crowds away from the best campsites, and if you're looking for a spirited get-together you know just where to look! Full disclosure: I waited out a whopper snow storm three days in the Black Gap shelter with my tent up and my tarp across the shelter front. It was January and I was alone. Situation dictates.
It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.
often times,though perhaps not always, going off and doing something without first educating yourself on how to do it at least somewhat properly, is, IMO, being an a-hole. especially when your ignorance adversely impacts others.
still though, good for this guy for at least being able to learn. not something everyone can say.plenty of people will always think they can do whatever they want with the shelter if they're there first.
Here's what I'd done, and I've done it before. I would have said, "my guide book and other guidebooks indicate this is a [insert number here] shelter and because of your tent(s) there is not room for that number of hikers, so ya'll got to pack up those tents." I might have thrown in a "I saw a bunch of other hikers earlier and they might be headed here too." Then I point over to the tenting ground and say, "that's where tents go." Thanks.
Inexperienced folks don't understand that hikers often come in late to shelters, and the worse the weather is the more likely that will occur because, like the OP said, if it's raining then one keeps on walking.
I have arrived at shelters after midnight on several occasions, and I am always very relieved to find a space for my pad, usually up top. I would wake a shelter-tenter in the middle of the night if there were no space, or maybe ask if I could cuddle up in their tent with them. I get very cranky about people being inconsiderate and selfish.
One time I rolled in for breakfast at a shelter at about 7 a.m. -- I'd already hiked probably 2 hours, not unusual for me. There was a tent in the shelter. The dip-****s inside were too scared to look out or even say hi. I know they were in there. I heard them whispering, "oh my god we're going to die," or something. I said hello. I sat and made coffee and chomped as loudly as I could on my breakfast. Very strange.
36760
So you show up at the shelter after dark and sit at the picnic table in front of the shelter while your buddy loudly complains that the shelter is full? Really. It sounds to me like you were the ones lacking etiquette and consideration for others. Did you really think that showing up late and in the rain after dark (9pm is bedtime for many hikers) that it was OK to wake them all up and they would just graciously offer to make room for you?
If its raining and I were using a shelter and it got to be 830 to 845 I'd be thinking "cool, nobody else is coming, I'm going to spread out and use the space available."
You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.
It's too bad they don't teach hiker etiquette at REI. One thing I've learned is not to expect anything on the trail except what I myself can provide. This is especially true in high traffic areas like SNP.
Seatbelt
10-31-2016, 15:02
Sad to say, but there needs to be a sign which says "No tents in the huts". $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for 1st violation.
How about revoking their tenting license with a 10-year probation?:)
You had no right to any space in that shelter
and no one has any right to take up more space than the space that is intended for one person to occupy. time of day is irrelevant.
Uncle Joe
10-31-2016, 15:24
You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.
So his friend is a jerk for expecting the shelter to not be full of tents? Or did you just miss that part.
So you show up at the shelter after dark and sit at the picnic table in front of the shelter while your buddy loudly complains that the shelter is full? Really. It sounds to me like you were the ones lacking etiquette and consideration for others. Did you really think that showing up late and in the rain after dark (9pm is bedtime for many hikers) that it was OK to wake them all up and they would just graciously offer to make room for you?
If its raining and I were using a shelter and it got to be 830 to 845 I'd be thinking "cool, nobody else is coming, I'm going to spread out and use the space available."
You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.
My buddy sat down at the table, said, "There are three tents in the shelter and no space for anyone else, you've got to be freaking kidding me." I said, "That's a bit inconsiderate," and then I went and pitched my hammock. We weren't whispering, but we weren't yelling, either. I would hardly say anyone acted like a jerk. And my point wasn't really that they should have woken up and made room for us, neither of us had any expectations that he would be entitled to a spot in the shelter. My point was that perhaps I need to be more considerate of where others might be coming from when they do things that I think are inconsiderate.
Good grief, how is it that I write a post acknowledging that I may have been wrong to judge someone else's intentions, yet I end up being scolded? lol
johnnybgood
10-31-2016, 16:09
They should have keep their tents latched to their backpacks if the plan was to use the shelter. This shelter sleeps eight so there was more than enough room for hikers looking to bunk up...minus the 3 tents.
For what it's worth ; try to learn trail etiquette on the off chance you might then teach others by example.
So you show up at the shelter after dark and sit at the picnic table in front of the shelter while your buddy loudly complains that the shelter is full? Really. It sounds to me like you were the ones lacking etiquette and consideration for others. Did you really think that showing up late and in the rain after dark (9pm is bedtime for many hikers) that it was OK to wake them all up and they would just graciously offer to make room for you?
If its raining and I were using a shelter and it got to be 830 to 845 I'd be thinking "cool, nobody else is coming, I'm going to spread out and use the space available."
You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.
This brings up a good point. At what time is it too late to come into a shelter? I've seen an entire shelter full of people sleeping at midnight woke up by one hiker (Personally I don't sleep in shelters except in GSMNP).
MuddyWaters
10-31-2016, 16:43
and no one has any right to take up more space than the space that is intended for one person to occupy. time of day is irrelevant.
Thats your interpretation. And common sense.
I dont disagree that its the way it SHOULD be
But, there arent any written rules about how space can be used in most AT shelters that Im aware of.I ve read the compendium of orders for the AT, as well as gsmnp, snp, and addendums.
And its first come first served, explicitly.
In federal regulation land...everything has to be specifically declared, and its simply not.
peakbagger
10-31-2016, 17:02
I have told folks in the past when asked is I have to right to claim the space under my thermarest/pad. When the floor is covered with Thermarest's the shelter is full. When doing a section in VA many years ago we were heading south and encountering early NOBO "thruhikers" that had expectations that sending someone ahead of their mob and upon arrival at the shelter at or just before dark announced that room had to made in the shelter for their group as they were "thru hikers". It got old after awhile. We usually discussed the sleeping pad rule with our shelter mates in advance and after several days of that decided to head home and plan sections outside of the season.
I have told folks in the past when asked is I have to right to claim the space under my thermarest/pad. When the floor is covered with Thermarest's the shelter is full. When doing a section in VA many years ago we were heading south and encountering early NOBO "thruhikers" that had expectations that sending someone ahead of their mob and upon arrival at the shelter at or just before dark announced that room had to made in the shelter for their group as they were "thru hikers". It got old after awhile. We usually discussed the sleeping pad rule with our shelter mates in advance and after several days of that decided to head home and plan sections outside of the season.
So you would rather go home and not hike at all (during the time that you had planned) rather than just pitch a tent or hammock outside? Do you not carry a shelter at all? Just seems like you were totally dependent on the shelters for the success and enjoyment of your hike.
To the OP's point, ""Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance". Often, education is better than confrontation.
Thats your interpretation. And common sense.
I dont disagree that its the way it SHOULD be
But, there arent any written rules about how space can be used in most AT shelters that Im aware of.I ve read the compendium of orders for the AT, as well as gsmnp, snp, and addendums.
And its first come first served, explicitly.
In federal regulation land...everything has to be specifically declared, and its simply not.
actually almost any guide you look at states the sleeping capacity of the shelter. it is published knowledge. is it a "rule?" no, i guess not. but theres all sorts of things we dont do that there are no formal rules or laws about. there are plenty of written gudielines in all sorts of various places concering proper use of the AT shelters. the idea that its first come first serve and whoever gets there first can do whatever they want, THATS the fantasy that doesnt exist.
actually almost any guide you look at states the sleeping capacity of the shelter. it is published knowledge. is it a "rule?" no, i guess not. but theres all sorts of things we dont do that there are no formal rules or laws about. there are plenty of written gudielines in all sorts of various places concering proper use of the AT shelters. the idea that its first come first serve and whoever gets there first can do whatever they want, THATS the fantasy that doesnt exist.
+1 .......
The OP's story setting up inconsiderate vs ignorance is one perspective. Another perspective is lack of consideration entails a measure of ignorance.
Secondmouse
11-01-2016, 00:22
putting up a tent inside a shelter is about as dumb as wearing your underwear outside your pants. you don't want to be asleep next to people like that...
firesign
11-01-2016, 01:47
putting up a tent inside a shelter is about as dumb as wearing your underwear outside your pants. you don't want to be asleep next to people like that...
Well said! A sheltsr inside a shelter is very dumb indeed.
Rain Man
11-01-2016, 08:26
I can certainly see more than one side to this incident. The OP made the decision to "push on" and arrive long after bedtime, setting up the potential problem. The shelter tenters made decisions to occupy the entire shelter without the full quota of the shelter's capacity, also setting up the potential problem.
I've seen lots of tents in shelters over the years, not causing any apparent problems, and no "No Tents In Shelter" signs, so I don't think it's at all common knowledge among the uneducated public that such a thing is against some unspoken etiquette.
Besides, while it might be aggravating, it apparently wasn't and isn't that big a deal. So, might fall under the "don't sweat the small stuff" adage?
Having said that, I've run across Boy Scout groups completely monopolizing shelters with large groups where there have been signs posted along the AT to limit group sizes to 10 or fewer. To me, that is inexcusable and not a matter of "sorry, we didn't know." I even had a ridge runner tell me that BS groups lie about such things all the time. They, as an organized group holding themselves out as superior, have a responsibility to know such things. Sorry, Boy Scout fans, but that's the way I see that.
I suspect the OP's tenting malfeasors either were ignorant or it got late and they rolled the dice. As the OP rolled the dice by hiking late into the evening. Been there, done that, and it's not fun when tired, cold, hungry, and wet. I might have grumbled too.
Uncle Joe
11-01-2016, 09:58
Tenting in a shelter is selfish.
MuddyWaters
11-01-2016, 11:09
All the shelters in SNP have signs stating they are for long distance hikers only, defining it as minimum of 3 nights on trail.
Very few people pay any attention.
People do what they think they can get away with, without enforcement, everytime.
rocketsocks
11-01-2016, 11:45
I can't help but think how a picture would have really sold this story.
I can't help but think how a picture would have really sold this story.
Funny, I thought about that the next morning and wished I had. But at the time all I wanted to do was hang my tarp, get out of the rain, and cook a hot meal.
Side note...this was the first night out. Ironically, on the last night of our trip we took advantage of a full moon to do some night hiking, and didn't get in to Rod Hollow Shelter until about 12:30am after a 27 mile day. There was a boy scout troop with three adult leaders and about 8-10 kids sleeping inside the shelter and in tents nearby, but they were all on the top platform and had their gear stored mindfully so that there was plenty of room available had we wanted it when we got there. So there are certainly lots of considerate/informed people out there, too.
Berserker
11-01-2016, 12:27
I've run across these tenters who set up in the shelters before, and I think it's ignorance for the most part. If you run into these types before or while they are setting up just tell them the shelters attract a lot of mice and the mice might chew a hole in their tent. I have successfully cleared a shelter before just by saying this...and it wasn't even because I wanted to stay in there :p.
Funny side story. The shelter that got cleared by me telling them a mouse might chew through their stuff actually had a lot of mice in it. One dude had hung his pack on a nail inside the shelter, and then went off to hit it in his tent. I was still hanging at the shelter just because I wanted a place to sit, and not 2 minutes later I hear all this noise. I turned on my headlamp, and a mouse had gotten into this dude's pack and was rustling around in there.
If the tents hadn't been set up in the shelter you two would have gone in there and woken everybody up unloading your gear and getting your stuff in order. Totally inconsiderate. If you show up at a shelter and everybody is in bed, you need to find another place to camp.
MuddyWaters
11-01-2016, 15:22
. There was a boy scout troop with three adult leaders and about 8-10 kids sleeping inside the shelter and in tents nearby, but they were all on the top platform and had their gear stored mindfully so that there was plenty of room available had we wanted it when we got there. So there are certainly lots of considerate/informed people out there, too.
A group using a shelter is not informed or conserate, as they are explicitly not for them.
Also if non youth sharing sleeping quarters particularly non scout in uncontrolled environment, they are in violation of bsa youth protection policies.
Typical scout leaders
tscoffey
11-01-2016, 15:31
So you and your friend sat outside the shelter and discussed how rude it was that those in the shelter were using tents, to your detriment? And you did this in the hope that they would overhear you, and possibly relent? Why the passive-aggressive tactic, instead of just walking in and asking them to use the shelter like responsible hikers?
A group using a shelter is not informed or conserate, as they are explicitly not for them.
Also if non youth sharing sleeping quarters particularly non scout in uncontrolled environment, they are in violation of bsa youth protection policies.
Typical scout leaders
Never miss a chance to say something negative about Scouts, do you. How do you know that the boys in the shelter with adult leaders weren't fathers with thier sons thus no violation of BSA policy? At least they didn't have their tents set up in the shelter.
I say good for the leaders for taking their time, and probably also at their expense, to take a group of boys who otherwise would probably never get a chance to see the AT.
So you and your friend sat outside the shelter and discussed how rude it was that those in the shelter were using tents, to your detriment? And you did this in the hope that they would overhear you, and possibly relent? Why the passive-aggressive tactic, instead of just walking in and asking them to use the shelter like responsible hikers?
No, we had no hopes that they would relent. Again, I had no interest in staying in the shelter, anyways. My buddy walked up after a long, wet day and spoke one sentence, to which I gave him a four word answer and walked away to hang my tarp. Which, by the way, I sat under despite the wind and rain to cook my dinner so that my stove wouldn't disturb everyone if I sat at the picnic table to cook. I'm very familiar with passive-aggressiveness, and that isn't what happened. It was a quick reaction which quickly became a non-issue. I didn't confront them because I had no interest in staying in the shelter. I'm assuming by buddy didn't confront them because he didn't want to be involved in a confrontation at that moment.
Again, I did not write this post with the intention of destroying the tenters. My whole point was that I was too quick to judge someone as being rude or inconsiderate when there may have been other factors that I was unaware of. Where else but whiteblaze can you make a full disclosure that you misjudged someone and learned a lesson, and still have people put you on blast?
If the tents hadn't been set up in the shelter you two would have gone in there and woken everybody up unloading your gear and getting your stuff in order. Totally inconsiderate. If you show up at a shelter and everybody is in bed, you need to find another place to camp.
I respectfully disagree. Does this also mean I have to lay in the shelter until a specified time in the morning before I can get up, so as not to risk waking anyone? Ridiculous. When you decide to sleep in a shelter, you are accepting the fact that people will wake you up by coming in late, getting up to pee in the middle of the night, snoring, getting up early, and a host of other things. I suppose if a couple of guys get to a shelter at 7pm and go to sleep, that means everyone else that shows up after them has to stay elsewhere since they are already asleep.
Also if non youth sharing sleeping quarters particularly non scout in uncontrolled environment, they are in violation of bsa youth protection policies.
Typical scout leaders
To be fair, I will say that all three adults were staying in their own tent/hammock, and only the boys were in the shelter. Two of the boys were sons of the leaders. I've seen good and bad scout troops in my time, and this was a pretty good one.
MuddyWaters
11-01-2016, 17:43
To be fair, I will say that all three adults were staying in their own tent/hammock, and only the boys were in the shelter. Two of the boys were sons of the leaders. I've seen good and bad scout troops in my time, and this was a pretty good one.
But its not ok for them necessarilly to share the shelter with hikers that arent youths. And you should expect other people to show up. Which is a big reason scouts belong in tents
No, we had no hopes that they would relent. Again, I had no interest in staying in the shelter, anyways. My buddy walked up after a long, wet day and spoke one sentence, to which I gave him a four word answer and walked away to hang my tarp. Which, by the way, I sat under despite the wind and rain to cook my dinner so that my stove wouldn't disturb everyone if I sat at the picnic table to cook. I'm very familiar with passive-aggressiveness, and that isn't what happened. It was a quick reaction which quickly became a non-issue. I didn't confront them because I had no interest in staying in the shelter. I'm assuming by buddy didn't confront them because he didn't want to be involved in a confrontation at that moment.
Again, I did not write this post with the intention of destroying the tenters. My whole point was that I was too quick to judge someone as being rude or inconsiderate when there may have been other factors that I was unaware of. Where else but whiteblaze can you make a full disclosure that you misjudged someone and learned a lesson, and still have people put you on blast?
Yep! That's how this whole thing works. You see, you can say in a post "I Love Snakes" as the only thing in your post at all. Then to start with the first several posts will be about how other poster also love snakes. Then one poster says they love snakes except this one particular kind of snake. The next 20 posts will be in equal part both for and against that particular kind of snake. By the time you get to the end of the thread, when most posters have bored of the topic, the last post will be something along the lines of "How DARE you not like snakes, when if it weren't for snakes this whole world would be over-run by mice! You must be a mouse of a man yourself to even propose such a notion." And that's entertainment! :p
MuddyWaters
11-01-2016, 17:51
Never miss a chance to say something negative about Scouts, do you. How do you know that the boys in the shelter with adult leaders weren't fathers with thier sons thus no violation of BSA policy? At least they didn't have their tents set up in the shelter.
I say good for the leaders for taking their time, and probably also at their expense, to take a group of boys who otherwise would probably never get a chance to see the AT.
Ive only been out of scouts a couple years.
We did things correctly, and by the book
Not breaking regulations, and setting good examples
Except for once when we slept in a location without permission enroute to Philmont. We confused an open door at the wrong church, with the place we had permission to stay at.... Little west texas town had 5 churches on same block basically. We discovered mistake later, but where we were had a/c, where we had permission to be did not. So we illegally crashed in a church without permission. Got out early next morning too...
Boys with dads likely wouldnt have presented themselves as scouts. Too much hoopla.
So you show up at the shelter after dark and sit at the picnic table in front of the shelter while your buddy loudly complains that the shelter is full? Really. It sounds to me like you were the ones lacking etiquette and consideration for others. Did you really think that showing up late and in the rain after dark (9pm is bedtime for many hikers) that it was OK to wake them all up and they would just graciously offer to make room for you?
If its raining and I were using a shelter and it got to be 830 to 845 I'd be thinking "cool, nobody else is coming, I'm going to spread out and use the space available."
You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.
You would spread out and use the space available? Sure, makes sense. But would you erect a tent in doing so?
You're already in a shelter. Why do you need a shelter within a shelter? Not only does this seem selfish, it's extra work for YOU! Kinda weird if nothing else...
If you set up in a shelter "normally," and others arrived, it's no big deal to move your stuff a little to make space for them if there is space. But if you're in a tent, which again is weird and unnecessary except in Deep Winter, it's a major deconstruction project -- in the dark.
But its not ok for them necessarilly to share the shelter with hikers that arent youths. And you should expect other people to show up. Which is a big reason scouts belong in tents
I always expect someone to show up late at a shelter, I've seen it too much not to.
If you have a source for a policy on Scouts being prohibited from using shelters please share. I believe they have as much right as anyone else to use the shelters. That being said my Scouts always sleep in tents out of courtesy to others and I would encourage other Scout troops to do the same. Not because someone doesn't think we have a right to use the shelters but because it's the courteous thing to do.
The big reason why scouts belong in tents and not shelters is because we are teaching them camping skills. If I didn't care about teaching skills such as choosing a good campsite and properly pitching a tent then they would be sleeping in shelters.
MuddyWaters
11-01-2016, 19:29
I always expect someone to show up late at a shelter, I've seen it too much not to.
If you have a source for a policy on Scouts being prohibited from using shelters please share. I believe they have as much right as anyone else to use the shelters.
FromATCwebsite: They have changed the wording to say now that they are for all AT users, did not used to say that.
Shelters are for all A.T. users. Hikers may occupy them on a first-come, first-served basis until the shelter is full. They are intended for individual hikers, not big groups.
For more specific info have to refer to the Local Management Plan of each trail maintaning organization.
bstiffler
11-01-2016, 21:10
So you show up at the shelter after dark and sit at the picnic table in front of the shelter while your buddy loudly complains that the shelter is full? Really. It sounds to me like you were the ones lacking etiquette and consideration for others. Did you really think that showing up late and in the rain after dark (9pm is bedtime for many hikers) that it was OK to wake them all up and they would just graciously offer to make room for you?
If its raining and I were using a shelter and it got to be 830 to 845 I'd be thinking "cool, nobody else is coming, I'm going to spread out and use the space available."
You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.
I think the problem was there was no room because people had their TENTS set up in the shelter. I guess I'm missing something, whats the point of setting up a tent in a shelter other than to take up maximum possible space?
admirald7s
11-01-2016, 21:29
No, we had no hopes that they would relent. Again, I had no interest in staying in the shelter, anyways. My buddy walked up after a long, wet day and spoke one sentence, to which I gave him a four word answer and walked away to hang my tarp. Which, by the way, I sat under despite the wind and rain to cook my dinner so that my stove wouldn't disturb everyone if I sat at the picnic table to cook. I'm very familiar with passive-aggressiveness, and that isn't what happened. It was a quick reaction which quickly became a non-issue. I didn't confront them because I had no interest in staying in the shelter. I'm assuming by buddy didn't confront them because he didn't want to be involved in a confrontation at that moment.
Again, I did not write this post with the intention of destroying the tenters. My whole point was that I was too quick to judge someone as being rude or inconsiderate when there may have been other factors that I was unaware of. Where else but whiteblaze can you make a full disclosure that you misjudged someone and learned a lesson, and still have people put you on blast?
Well, as you're finding out, the Internet has the final say about what your intentions were :P
If no one else says it, thanks for sharing both your story and your perspective!
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pilgrimskywheel
11-01-2016, 21:50
Who would believe big boxes in the woods could be so baffling? That's why shelters are being phased out all together.
TheCheek
11-01-2016, 23:18
putting up a tent inside a shelter is about as dumb as wearing your underwear outside your pants. you don't want to be asleep next to people like that...
It's actually a great idea, especially in buggy weather or if your tent simply needs airing out. It's not setting up a tent inside of a shelter that is a bad idea, it is whether you are taking up more space than you should when others could use it that is the bad idea. There are plenty of tents that take up only the footprint of a sleeping pad. For them, I welcome them to set up their tents because it provides a barrier and less inadvertent invasion of personal space during the night.
Hikingjim
11-02-2016, 03:25
In my opinion, people that ruffle around their gear at 9:30 pm and jump in the shelter are annoying. And so are people that use the picnic table at 5:15 am
That's why I rarely sleep in the shelter unless it's pretty well empty I guess!
And I will go make my coffee, etc a ways away if I am the one up at 5. Don't need to fire up my stove 3 feet from everyone
the tents in the shelter isn't cool, but if no one is there at 9 pm and they go with it, it's not quite as bad. If someone did that when it's still light out, I'd be a bit more annoyed. Usually people that hike in the dark don't care about a shelter space.
jjozgrunt
11-02-2016, 05:18
I don't intend to stay at shelters in the first couple of months. Might stop to use the loos, sit at a table for lunch but I prefer the bush for camping wherever possible. Plus there has been too many cases of Norovirus over the last couple of years all in the south. Lots of people, some with poor hygiene = Norovirus.
MuddyWaters
11-02-2016, 06:18
Usually people that hike in the dark don't care about a shelter space.
Not uncommon for thruhikers doing 25 or more mpd to show up 9-11 pm, wake everyone up.
rocketsocks
11-02-2016, 06:51
I don't intend to stay at shelters in the first couple of months. Might stop to use the loos, sit at a table for lunch but I prefer the bush for camping wherever possible. Plus there has been too many cases of Norovirus over the last couple of years all in the south. Lots of people, some with poor hygiene = Norovirus.beware the Natty's :D
It's actually a great idea, especially in buggy weather or if your tent simply needs airing out.
why does this need to be done inside a shelter?
the reasoning behind justifying this always comes down to why a tent in a shelter is better than just the shelter with no tent. no one ever explains why its better than just a tent outside of the shelter without the shelter. because there is no reason.
Who would believe big boxes in the woods could be so baffling? That's why shelters are being phased out all together.
What is your source for this statement?
jjozgrunt
11-02-2016, 08:06
beware the Natty's :D
???What is a Natty????
Rain Man
11-02-2016, 08:46
Well, as you're finding out, the Internet has the final say about what your intentions were :P
AND who can have and who can not have reasons and intentions and whether reasons and intentions can even exist outside the Internet-poster's own universe of opinion and sphere of knowledge?
;)
smokey mtn hiker
11-02-2016, 08:59
We came across the same situation with a Boy Scout group, only with a different outcome. We were on the last day of a 5 day hike and had been hiking all day in rain. Although we don't usually use shelters, we decided we would the last night because we didn't feel like packing out all wet gear. When we arrived at the shelter only to find the scouts with tents in the shelter. One of our group started ranting about it. Sensing our disgust and anger, the scoutmaster was quick to diffuse the situation and pointed out they were only pitching the tents and moving them outside the shelter. We apologized for our quick temper and waited for them to complete pitching the tents and then moved in.
When we had settled into the shelter, the scoutmaster came over and asked if they could cook us dinner. They had two big pots of spaghetti. I have to admit that was some of the best spaghetti I have ever eaten!
But to the point of having a tent set up in a shelter. I thought a tent was shelter??
Pastor Bryon
11-02-2016, 09:08
I have only been hiking on the AT for about 3 years, and I've been on WB for a couple of those years. I am immensely thankful for the knowledge I have gained, helpful advice, and guidance. I have learned better ways to do things, and have corrected habits that were not the best for trail use.
This has come through those teaching in an encouraging way and others pontificating about what is wrong with a particular person, group, or all humans except themselves.
Some of you I would thoroughly enjoy hiking with. Others, meh.
Sharing an apartment with 4 other people can be a challenge for just a few weeks. Sharing 2000+ miles with a few thousand people (none of which has full ownership), no way that you can avoid conflict and strong differences of opinion.
Whatever. I am appreciative of the OP for sharing his experience. Good word for me to learn from.
ldsailor
11-02-2016, 16:31
It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.
Okay, please help me out here. I thought I was attuned to hiker etiquette but maybe not. First, if there is a fire going at a shelter firepit or I build one, what is the problem with burning trash (assuming it will burn with no harmful fumes or residue)?
Second, what's the problem with rinsing out cookware or dishes as long as it is downstream from where a hiker would fill their water bladders or bottles? This rinsing is done with no soap.
ldsailor
11-02-2016, 16:39
I respectfully disagree. Does this also mean I have to lay in the shelter until a specified time in the morning before I can get up, so as not to risk waking anyone? Ridiculous. When you decide to sleep in a shelter, you are accepting the fact that people will wake you up by coming in late, getting up to pee in the middle of the night, snoring, getting up early, and a host of other things. I suppose if a couple of guys get to a shelter at 7pm and go to sleep, that means everyone else that shows up after them has to stay elsewhere since they are already asleep.
I just finished a three week hike on the AT in TN and VA. I stayed in shelters exclusively. Several of those days, late night hikers came into the shelters. Yeah, they woke me up, but they were fast setting up and considerate in the amount of noise they made. Any hiker experienced enough to hike at night knows what to do and not do.
I always said, "Hi!"
Ear plugs solve a lot of shelter problems. I carry no spare anything except spare ear plugs.
Hangfire
11-02-2016, 23:13
If you show up after lights out you shouldn't even approach the shelter unless you are in an emergency situation. The same goes with setting your tent up, stay clear of everyone who is already set up and sleeping, there is nothing more disrespectful than waking people because of poor planning. It just blew my mind when people would come rolling up at 10pm and set up their tent or take a spot in the shelter, cook their food, hold conversations...still gets my blood boiling just thinking about it. If you showed up at 6pm and saw tents in the shelter you can just tell them to make room, no big deal as they will probably be sitting around eating anyways. But rolling in late...even if there were just 4 people without tents, now they have to listen to you throw out your tyvek sheet, inflate an air mattress, rustle around with all of your equipment, watch your headlamp bounce around for 30 minutes, that's just inexcusable to me.
Not picking on the OP as you weren't going to stay in the shelter anyways, but to your partner and any future hikers who may find themselves out on trail in a night hike situation, be respectful of sleeping hikers.
TheCheek
11-02-2016, 23:36
no one ever explains why its better than just a tent outside of the shelter without the shelter.
You might want to re-read my post.
Ear plugs solve a lot of shelter problems. I carry no spare anything except spare ear plugs.
You're forgetting the clothespin for the nose, eye blindfold, two sleeping pills, and trained Rottweiler. :D
It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.
Wow...this is definitely something to think about - not only for A.T. stuff, but other things as well = So often, we think people should "know" things and are disrespectful, but what if their actions are based on a lack of prior knowledge - and we actually had the opportunity to instruct them and didn't?
Thank you for this post!
Oventoasted
11-03-2016, 00:13
Okay, please help me out here. I thought I was attuned to hiker etiquette but maybe not. First, if there is a fire going at a shelter firepit or I build one, what is the problem with burning trash (assuming it will burn with no harmful fumes or residue)?
Second, what's the problem with rinsing out cookware or dishes as long as it is downstream from where a hiker would fill their water bladders or bottles? This rinsing is done with no soap.
Yeah, this one threw me for a loop also. always burned my paper plates and dirty paper towels. also i always cleaned my dishes in the stream if one was near by.
Sarcasm the elf
11-03-2016, 00:33
Yeah, this one threw me for a loop also. always burned my paper plates and dirty paper towels. also i always cleaned my dishes in the stream if one was near by.
The problem is people who either throw things in an unlit firepit assuning that someone else won't mind burning their garbage for them or people who put things in the fire pit that don't fully burn ( in particular mountain house type bags which a lot of people don't realize are part metal)
This is the type of jackassery we are talking about:
If you show up after lights out you shouldn't even approach the shelter unless you are in an emergency situation. The same goes with setting your tent up, stay clear of everyone who is already set up and sleeping, there is nothing more disrespectful than waking people because of poor planning. It just blew my mind when people would come rolling up at 10pm and set up their tent or take a spot in the shelter, cook their food, hold conversations...still gets my blood boiling just thinking about it.
Haha.. what a crock of BS. If you decide to stay at or near a shelter you SHOULD understand first and foremost that anything goes. You're not at the Hilton, and there are no "rules" out there. It sucks when people come rolling in after hours, but that's what you put up with, among other annoyances, when you choose to sleep in a shelter. If you want peace and solitude you need to stay FAR AWAY from the shelters. A lot of hikers pulling bigger mile days have the same rights as you do, and they likely won't be getting in until dark or around hiker midnight. So according to your self-absorbed viewpoint, these hikers need to move on unless it's an emergency? Absurd.
AfterParty
11-03-2016, 05:53
Exactly why I don't wanna stay in shelters ^^^^
MuddyWaters
11-03-2016, 06:32
If you show up after lights out you shouldn't even approach the shelter unless you are in an emergency situation. The same goes with setting your tent up, stay clear of everyone who is already set up and sleeping, there is nothing more disrespectful than waking people because of poor planning. It just blew my mind when people would come rolling up at 10pm and set up their tent or take a spot in the shelter, cook their food, hold conversations...still gets my blood boiling just thinking about it. If you showed up at 6pm and saw tents in the shelter you can just tell them to make room, no big deal as they will probably be sitting around eating anyways. But rolling in late...even if there were just 4 people without tents, now they have to listen to you throw out your tyvek sheet, inflate an air mattress, rustle around with all of your equipment, watch your headlamp bounce around for 30 minutes, that's just inexcusable to me.
Not picking on the OP as you weren't going to stay in the shelter anyways, but to your partner and any future hikers who may find themselves out on trail in a night hike situation, be respectful of sleeping hikers.
Making up your own shelter rules?
There arent any rules
If it bothers you wear earplugs, youll never know they are there
0.1 oz
Making up your own shelter rules?
There arent any rules
If it bothers you wear earplugs, youll never know they are there
0.1 oz
While I tend to more or less agree with you and the others who see things that way, I would never dream of subjecting others to such a late interruption myself -- especially outside of the normal Nobo hiking season or at shelters away from the AT.
Would you think twice about arriving at a shelter well after dark yourself?
While I tend to more or less agree with you and the others who see things that way, I would never dream of subjecting others to such a late interruption myself -- especially outside of the normal Nobo hiking season or at shelters away from the AT.
Would you think twice about arriving at a shelter well after dark yourself?
I was kind of lectured once by a hiker from Vermont. We had arrived at the shelter fairly early and we were the only ones there, set up our stuff leaving plenty of space for other people if they wanted to use it. This hiker rolls in and sniffs "I never set up in a shelter if its still daylight. I always leave that for people arriving after dark so they dont have to set up a tent".
No matter what, you are going to lose, so go ahead and set up your six man tent in a shelter and enjoy yourself.
I think the problem of tents in a shelter is not tied to the AT, nor even to US.
I've seen a tent in a very tiny shelter atop of Sinai's highest mountain. A bunch of tourists squeezing in the free space, their guide residing in the tent.
This guy quarreled with us stating that we wouldn't be allowed to even be there.
Later I asked him if he could point out the exact location on the horizon the sun would come up.
He was done with us after this, believing we were complete idiots.
Only after we had (in fact comfortabely) survived the night cowboy camping in near-freezing conditions, he became a bit less hostile the next morning.
Met the same guy years later under circumstances showing that we were everything but stupid, and though he was too proud to apologize he clearly showed that he felt like such.
I think the fact that here on WB you meet an overwhelming majority of good people just hides the fact that out in the outdoors there are all kinds of, good and bad ones.
Lone Wolf
11-03-2016, 08:49
if one is foolish enuf to stay in a box after strollin' through 1000s of acres of woods then one must put up with other fools doin' foolish things in that box
MuddyWaters
11-03-2016, 09:19
Would you think twice about arriving at a shelter well after dark yourself?
Like someone said, arriving at 11 pm are folks that can use shelter the most.
If anyone thinks they should give a hoot about section hikers doing 10 miles and camping in shelters at 3 pm they are a fool. And they definitrly dont. They will usually apologize though. But the idea is just make your noise and get settled as fast as can.
Recently a sobo came into shelter where I was alone around 10 pm. By myself ill sleep there for ease of getting going in am. . Apologized, said he had 25 mile day. I said me too...I got here at 5:30.p m.
I started at 5am, before dawn , instead of 9am and hiking late. Hour before daylight is best time of day. I dont like setting up in dark if can help it. And nope, not that concerned at a shelter. It is what it is. I wouldnt ask where the water is which is first thing out of many mouths.
Rain Man
11-03-2016, 09:37
... also i always cleaned my dishes in the stream if one was near by.
A big "no-no." Do not dump food scraps into a wilderness stream. Same for soapy water.
Not to mention, but your downstream might be someone else's upstream.
Besides, there's no reason to do that.
The problem is people who either throw things in an unlit firepit assuning that someone else won't mind burning their garbage for them or people who put things in the fire pit that don't fully burn ( in particular mountain house type bags which a lot of people don't realize are part metal)
This is the type of jackassery we are talking about:
Yes, thank you, this is what I was talking about. I also don't necessarily have a problem with washing things downstream, I was more talking about washing dishes at the source of a spring (I once found spaghetti in the pool of water where a spring came out from under a rock).
Inconsiderate vs. Ignorant?
It's not always either / or.
Often times it's BOTH.
Wayne
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rocketsocks
11-03-2016, 11:56
Inconsiderate vs. Ignorant?
It's not always either / or.
Often times it's BOTH.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And I'd just add that.
...your father was a hampster and you mother stank of elderberry!
ldsailor
11-03-2016, 12:09
The problem is people who either throw things in an unlit firepit assuning that someone else won't mind burning their garbage for them or people who put things in the fire pit that don't fully burn ( in particular mountain house type bags which a lot of people don't realize are part metal)
This is the type of jackassery we are talking about:
One of the first things I did when I started hiking was deliberately burn a used Mountain House bag at a shelter fire pit to inspect whether it would burn in its entirety. The next morning the fire was out and the ashes cold. I stirred the ashes and looked for any trace of the bag remains and could find none. I even removed the ashes and sifted through them. Nothing.
I probably have only burned bags a half dozen times in a little less than two months and over 500 miles of hiking the AT. The rest of the time I carried them out. In those half dozen time I always looked to see if there were remains, but never as thoroughly as the first time. I have never found remains.
Seatbelt
11-03-2016, 12:55
I arrived at Tri-Corner Shelter in the smokies in May of last year, still daylight and noticed a guy inflating his air mattress outside away from the shelter. I said howdy from around 15 paces away and asked if the shelter had any openings since you can only see the backside of the shelter from the approach. He put his finger over his lips and said "shhh, everyone's asleep, but it's better this way". I glanced at my watch, it was 7:00pm, still very much daylight. We talked quietly and decided that he was right, no partying noise to endure tonite and we all got a good night's sleep, the shelter was almost full with several tents set up as well. This is the only time I have encountered a shelter with that many people all asleep that early. No complaints.
A group using a shelter is not informed or conserate, as they are explicitly not for them.
Also if non youth sharing sleeping quarters particularly non scout in uncontrolled environment, they are in violation of bsa youth protection policies.
Typical scout leaders
Never miss a chance to say something negative about Scouts, do you. How do you know that the boys in the shelter with adult leaders weren't fathers with thier sons thus no violation of BSA policy? At least they didn't have their tents set up in the shelter.
I say good for the leaders for taking their time, and probably also at their expense, to take a group of boys who otherwise would probably never get a chance to see the AT.
To be fair, I will say that all three adults were staying in their own tent/hammock, and only the boys were in the shelter. Two of the boys were sons of the leaders. I've seen good and bad scout troops in my time, and this was a pretty good one.
Just for Info - This line comes directly from the scouting.org website:
"No youth may share a tent with an adult or a person of the opposite sex other than a family member or guardian."
Notice they use the word TENT, not shelter - and that makes perfect sense. The reasoning behind this is to prevent two youth (that's the opposite sex part) or a youth and non related adult from being alone in a location where no one else may be able to know what is happening.
Being in a shelter (or similarly another indoor facility where rooms have multiple people in them) won't provide that option to do something that shouldn't be done, knowing that someone else is either there or could be at any point.
MuddyWaters
11-03-2016, 14:04
Just for Info - This line comes directly from the scouting.org website:<br>
<br>
"No youth may share a tent with an adult or a person of the opposite sex other than a family member or guardian."<br>
<br>
Notice they use the word TENT, not shelter - and that makes perfect sense. The reasoning behind this is to prevent two youth (that's the opposite sex part) or a youth and non related adult from being alone in a location where no one else may be able to know what is happening.<br>
Being in a shelter (or similarly another indoor facility where rooms have multiple people in them) won't provide that option to do something that shouldn't be done, knowing that someone else is either there or could be at any point.
People who arent registered and background checked by bsa arent allowed to be around scouts on scout activities. Even parents get background checked to accompany their kids on scout functions.
Sharing confined sleeping quarters with strangers over 18 is a no no any way you look at it, especially non scout persons. Its negligent on part of leaders to even consider it.
There must be separate dressing and sleeping quarters for adults and youth. Sometimes this means sleeping on opposite sides of a room. But a stranger simply changing clothes in front if scouts could be grounds for legal lawsuit if leaders allowed the situation to reasonably occur.
Even worse if they were left unsupervised with a stranger in shelterwhile leaders slept in tent. that amounts to child endangerment when its someone elses kid.
theinfamousj
11-03-2016, 14:50
I have slept in shelters. I have slept in tents. I still cannot wrap my mind around what a tenter is thinking, setting up in a shelter. The shelter adds nothing to the tent. The tent takes much away from the shelter. And for every shelter I have seen, there are always plenty of tent sites nearby.
Seriously, though, the only thing a shelter is, is a replacement for a rainfly, at best.
Those of you who tent in shelters or under the behavior... What *is* it that the shelter adds to the tent that I am failing to realize?
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"People who arent registered and background checked by bsa arent allowed to be around scouts on scout activities. Even parents get background checked to accompany their kids on scout functions."
Please site the document that states that scouts are not allowed to be around other people on scout activities or that parents need background checks.
I've been a Scoutmaster for 10 years and this is total BS. Recently my troop visited the local indoor climbing center. The staff there took them for several hours, they were not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when the local park ranger took our guys on a nature hike, he was not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when they visited the local fire station, or a thousand other places. Why in the world would we want to segregate scouts from the rest of the world?
And one more point. You take a group of scouts to public place, from McDonald to the Smithsonian and they need to use the bathroom, guess what, there are men in there with the boys. That's the real world.
MuddyWaters
11-03-2016, 15:37
"People who arent registered and background checked by bsa arent allowed to be around scouts on scout activities. Even parents get background checked to accompany their kids on scout functions."
Please site the document that states that scouts are not allowed to be around other people on scout activities or that parents need background checks.
I've been a Scoutmaster for 10 years and this is total BS. Recently my troop visited the local indoor climbing center. The staff there took them for several hours, they were not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when the local park ranger took our guys on a nature hike, he was not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when they visited the local fire station, or a thousand other places. Why in the world would we want to segregate scouts from the rest of the world?
And one more point. You take a group of scouts to public place, from McDonald to the Smithsonian and they need to use the bathroom, guess what, there are men in there with the boys. That's the real world.
Check bsa regs.
Adult program participants must meet same criteria as scouters for registered activities. This would include campouts and hikes, trips, and the like.
This 100% includes parents, anyone over 18. We took care if this at first meeting every year.
Of couse they can be around non scouts as necessary, theres a difference between visiting a firehouse, and sleeping with strangers in the woods. A public bathroom provided for necessary privacy, in a controlled setting.
MuddyWaters
11-03-2016, 15:43
"People who arent registered and background checked by bsa arent allowed to be around scouts on scout activities. Even parents get background checked to accompany their kids on scout functions."
Please site the document that states that scouts are not allowed to be around other people on scout activities or that parents need background checks.
I've been a Scoutmaster for 10 years and this is total BS. Recently my troop visited the local indoor climbing center. The staff there took them for several hours, they were not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when the local park ranger took our guys on a nature hike, he was not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when they visited the local fire station, or a thousand other places. Why in the world would we want to segregate scouts from the rest of the world?
And one more point. You take a group of scouts to public place, from McDonald to the Smithsonian and they need to use the bathroom, guess what, there are men in there with the boys. That's the real world.
Read your regs.
Adult program participants must meet same criteria as scouters for registered activities. This would include campouts and hikes, trips, and the like.
This 100% includes parents, anyone over 18. We took care of this at first meeting every year. If they even might want to attend a campout sometime they joined the troop and got the background check.
Predators can have kids too.....
Of couse they can be around non scouts as necessary, theres a difference between visiting a firehouse and slleeping with strangers in the woods. If you cant tell difference, im speechless.
A public bathroom provided for necessary privacy, in a controlled setting.
Arguement that "thats the real world" is baseless. You still cant allow a single scout to be alone with an adult, whether that adult us a bsa member or not. You are responsible for keeping kids safe.
MuddyWaters
11-03-2016, 15:47
Double post
Hangfire
11-03-2016, 15:55
So I'm guessing they had their tents set up in the shelter in an attempt to dry them out? It was a rainy day as the OP stated. I only saw this once on my thru-hike and it was a small half dome style tent that didn't take up more room than a foot print...the shelter filled but no one said anything because it didn't take up any extra room.
Haha.. what a crock of BS. If you decide to stay at or near a shelter you SHOULD understand first and foremost that anything goes. You're not at the Hilton, and there are no "rules" out there. It sucks when people come rolling in after hours, but that's what you put up with, among other annoyances, when you choose to sleep in a shelter. If you want peace and solitude you need to stay FAR AWAY from the shelters. A lot of hikers pulling bigger mile days have the same rights as you do, and they likely won't be getting in until dark or around hiker midnight. So according to your self-absorbed viewpoint, these hikers need to move on unless it's an emergency? Absurd.
+1...........................................
Hangfire
11-03-2016, 16:14
A big "no-no." Do not dump food scraps into a wilderness stream. Same for soapy water.
Not to mention, but your downstream might be someone else's upstream.
Besides, there's no reason to do that.
100% agree with you, I started the AT as an absolute novice and after just a few days of seeing the water sources start to fill up with rice and noodles and cheerios...absolutely blew my mind how people could be so lazy, and again I had no idea what I was doing. This to me was as common sense as common sense could get.
If you show up after lights out you shouldn't even approach the shelter unless you are in an emergency situation. The same goes with setting your tent up, stay clear of everyone who is already set up and sleeping, there is nothing more disrespectful than waking people because of poor planning. It just blew my mind when people would come rolling up at 10pm and set up their tent or take a spot in the shelter, cook their food, hold conversations...still gets my blood boiling just thinking about it. If you showed up at 6pm and saw tents in the shelter you can just tell them to make room, no big deal as they will probably be sitting around eating anyways. But rolling in late...even if there were just 4 people without tents, now they have to listen to you throw out your tyvek sheet, inflate an air mattress, rustle around with all of your equipment, watch your headlamp bounce around for 30 minutes, that's just inexcusable to me.
Not picking on the OP as you weren't going to stay in the shelter anyways, but to your partner and any future hikers who may find themselves out on trail in a night hike situation, be respectful of sleeping hikers.
I agree, if you come in late be as quiet as possible and do your best not to disturb anybody, but there are no rules about when you can come in. Don't assume late = poor planning. I have started hikes at 8 PM because that's when I could get to the trail. I'd prefer to hike in a few miles in the dark than to stay in a hotel.
Read your regs.
Adult program participants must meet same criteria as scouters for registered activities. This would include campouts and hikes, trips, and the like. This 100% includes parents, anyone over 18. .
Wrong. The Guide to Safe Scouting states "A minimum of two registered adultleaders, or one registered leader and a participating Scout’s parent, or another adultare required for all trips and outings. One of these adults must be 21 years of age or older."
It does not state that all need to be registered, in fact it specifically states that only ONE registered leader is required for a trip along with another adult over 21. According to policy you could go on a trip with one 18 year old Assistant Scoutmaster (registered), and one 21 year old or older non-registered adult such as a parent.
And you didn't have to read very far into the Guide to Safe Scouting for this information, it comes from page 1.
Your unit of course is free to have stricter guidelines but that is not BSA policy.
In my view, most people who show up late to shelters have a pretty good system to unpack and stay out of peoples ways, having tents in a shelter is just plain stupid, and to give a quote about that, "“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
StubbleJumper
11-03-2016, 22:15
Haha.. what a crock of BS. If you decide to stay at or near a shelter you SHOULD understand first and foremost that anything goes. You're not at the Hilton, and there are no "rules" out there. It sucks when people come rolling in after hours, but that's what you put up with, among other annoyances, when you choose to sleep in a shelter. If you want peace and solitude you need to stay FAR AWAY from the shelters. A lot of hikers pulling bigger mile days have the same rights as you do, and they likely won't be getting in until dark or around hiker midnight. So according to your self-absorbed viewpoint, these hikers need to move on unless it's an emergency? Absurd.
Yes, it's true that anything goes at a shelter. That, however, does not mean that anything *should* go. There are jerks present in nearly all aspects of life, whether that's riding on the subway, having a pint at the bar, or standing on a street corner. A great many things "go" in a great many circumstances because jerks are thoughtless and rude everywhere.
Alligator
11-04-2016, 00:16
Wrong. The Guide to Safe Scouting states "A minimum of two registered adultleaders, or one registered leader and a participating Scout’s parent, or another adultare required for all trips and outings. One of these adults must be 21 years of age or older."
It does not state that all need to be registered, in fact it specifically states that only ONE registered leader is required for a trip along with another adult over 21. According to policy you could go on a trip with one 18 year old Assistant Scoutmaster (registered), and one 21 year old or older non-registered adult such as a parent.
And you didn't have to read very far into the Guide to Safe Scouting for this information, it comes from page 1.
Your unit of course is free to have stricter guidelines but that is not BSA policy.Time for the two of you to take your disagreement to PM.
theinfamousj
11-04-2016, 01:39
So I'm guessing they had their tents set up in the shelter in an attempt to dry them out? It was a rainy day as the OP stated. I only saw this once on my thru-hike and it was a small half dome style tent that didn't take up more room than a foot print...the shelter filled but no one said anything because it didn't take up any extra room.
But a tent can be dried without being pitched and shelters have ways to hang things. That a tent needs to be pitched to be dried is confusing to me.
When I return from trips and dry (or as I like to say "dehydrate") my tent before putting it away, I hang it from the shower curtain rod in my bathroom, unpitched, and it dries a treat.
Are the rest of you pitching your tents to dry them? Is there some advantage to pitching a tent dry?
Or is this simply the excuse that shelter tenters are giving themselves for a lack of consideration? Because I continue to see no reason why someone needs to be in a shelter in a shelter.
If the goal was simply to keep a tent dry that hadn't yet gotten wet, then not using the tent at all would have done. Or keeping the poles out and using the tent as inefficient bug netting, suspended from the shelter roof, if bugs are that much of a concern. But if it was raining, then naturally, bugs aren't a concern. Bugs don't swarm in the rain.
Surely there is something that I am failing to understand, here.
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Yes, my regular ways to dry the tent is (1) so shake and wipe it as good as possible, and (2) to pitch it in a sheltered area, back home, this means the roofed terrace, and I'll leave it pitched for days, moving and tumbling it around every now and then (easy to do as all my tents are freestanding).
During a hike I would seldom bother to pitch the tent just for the purpose to dry it, more often I spread it in the sun (rainfly and inner separately), spreading folds and turning faces several times.
Takes maybe 1/2hr to get it dry enough to go on.
Hangfire
11-04-2016, 13:47
But a tent can be dried without being pitched and shelters have ways to hang things. That a tent needs to be pitched to be dried is confusing to me.
When I return from trips and dry (or as I like to say "dehydrate") my tent before putting it away, I hang it from the shower curtain rod in my bathroom, unpitched, and it dries a treat.
Are the rest of you pitching your tents to dry them? Is there some advantage to pitching a tent dry?
Or is this simply the excuse that shelter tenters are giving themselves for a lack of consideration? Because I continue to see no reason why someone needs to be in a shelter in a shelter.
If the goal was simply to keep a tent dry that hadn't yet gotten wet, then not using the tent at all would have done. Or keeping the poles out and using the tent as inefficient bug netting, suspended from the shelter roof, if bugs are that much of a concern. But if it was raining, then naturally, bugs aren't a concern. Bugs don't swarm in the rain.
Surely there is something that I am failing to understand, here.
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Well, I don't have a free standing tent so I couldn't set up my tent in a shelter even if I wanted to, but i would guess the reasons for sheltering inside a shelter would be.
1. Mosquitos
2. Extreme cold
3. Trying to dry out a wet tent (from the night before)
4. The shelter has a leaky roof
5. being inconsiderate of others (if your tent takes up more than a single footprint)
6. Technically speaking it could keep the mice off of you, but as we all know if mice want to get into your tent they will chew in...
What'd I miss and/or get wrong...I'm sure there are plenty of theories out there.
theinfamousj
11-04-2016, 13:57
Well, I don't have a free standing tent so I couldn't set up my tent in a shelter even if I wanted to, but i would guess the reasons for sheltering inside a shelter would be.
1. Mosquitos
2. Extreme cold
3. Trying to dry out a wet tent (from the night before)
4. The shelter has a leaky roof
5. being inconsiderate of others (if your tent takes up more than a single footprint)
6. Technically speaking it could keep the mice off of you, but as we all know if mice want to get into your tent they will chew in...
What'd I miss and/or get wrong...I'm sure there are plenty of theories out there.
Oh, I understand why a tent would add value to a shelter. But the value it adds is the same value as not even having a shelter around it at all. So my question is what value does the shelter add to the tent? Because otherwise it makes the most sense to just use the tent on its own and ignore the shelter entirely.
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Sandy of PA
11-04-2016, 14:04
The only value I can think of is the shelter floor is more likely to be flat than the dirt.
Second, what's the problem with rinsing out cookware or dishes as long as it is downstream from where a hiker would fill their water bladders or bottles? This rinsing is done with no soap.You never know if someone is filling up their bottle further downstream. The trail (or a different trail) may cross that spring or stream in another place that you can't see or know about. That is why many people carry a collapsible bucket they can scoop water and carry to a different location. There is nothing more disgusting than going to a spring to get some drinking water or water to cook with and you see bits of macaroni in it from someone who decided to clean their pot there.
Hangfire
11-04-2016, 14:51
In my experience pitching a tent is by far the best way to dry it out, at lunchtime, in the sun, it will dry in minutes. Even in tough weather conditions, if you are setting up a sopping wet tent (from the night before) if you can get it set up and open the vestibules with a little time and hopefully some breeze you can get it manageable in an hour or so before putting your pad and sleeping bag down.
The most surfaces exposed to open air is the most efficient way to dry anything out.
One of the first things I did when I started hiking was deliberately burn a used Mountain House bag at a shelter fire pit to inspect whether it would burn in its entirety. The next morning the fire was out and the ashes cold. I stirred the ashes and looked for any trace of the bag remains and could find none. I even removed the ashes and sifted through them. Nothing.
I probably have only burned bags a half dozen times in a little less than two months and over 500 miles of hiking the AT. The rest of the time I carried them out. In those half dozen time I always looked to see if there were remains, but never as thoroughly as the first time. I have never found remains.A lot depends upon how how the fire is. But usually if you've got a half dozen or more people throwing plastic and aluminum in the fire pit the fire doesn't burn hot enough or long enough to dispose of everything in there, and by morning you can find a lump of melted plastic at the bottom of the ashes.
I have slept in shelters. I have slept in tents. I still cannot wrap my mind around what a tenter is thinking, setting up in a shelter. The shelter adds nothing to the tent. The tent takes much away from the shelter. And for every shelter I have seen, there are always plenty of tent sites nearby.
Seriously, though, the only thing a shelter is, is a replacement for a rainfly, at best.
Those of you who tent in shelters or under the behavior... What *is* it that the shelter adds to the tent that I am failing to realize?
Sent from my Nexus 5 using TapatalkIt is additional protection from wind and rain. Maybe its raining and the person doesn't want to pack up a wet tent in the morning. And putting the tent up in the shelter affords protection from bugs, allows for privacy, and to a small degree will trap heat.
In my view, most people who show up late to shelters have a pretty good system to unpack and stay out of peoples ways, having tents in a shelter is just plain stupid, and to give a quote about that, "“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
Followed by, "You can't fix stupid."
Wayne
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Puddlefish
11-04-2016, 15:41
I saw a lot of inconsiderate and ignorant behavior on the trail. I made the decision before the hike, not to attempt to become the trail police, for my own sanity. Few people enjoy being called out on their behavior, no matter how gently.
A lot of the complaints I read about the trail, often seem to ignore their own behavior. Like the classic stupid old men waking up early, being loud and ruining my hike, as opposed to the stupid young girl shrieking in laughter late into the night and ruining my hike rebuttal.
Even when people annoyed me, I made a point not to retaliate in kind. It's easy enough to go along on your own way and find a quieter, more serene campsite the following night.
Oh, I understand why a tent would add value to a shelter. But the value it adds is the same value as not even having a shelter around it at all. So my question is what value does the shelter add to the tent? Because otherwise it makes the most sense to just use the tent on its own and ignore the shelter entirely.
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been asking this question on and off for years every time this issue comes up in a thread. people just dont get it. which makes sense, because if they did, no one would ever do something so pointless. like many irrational acts, ive just come to guess that somehow, for some reason that cant be articulated yet alone understood, it just "feels" better to the people who do it.
i mean mosquitos? really? being inside a tent inside a shelter does a better job of keeping away mosquitos then just being in a tent out in the woods?
you can't make this stuff up.
Hangfire
11-04-2016, 16:12
been asking this question on and off for years every time this issue comes up in a thread. people just dont get it. which makes sense, because if they did, no one would ever do something so pointless. like many irrational acts, ive just come to guess that somehow, for some reason that cant be articulated yet alone understood, it just "feels" better to the people who do it.
i mean mosquitos? really? being inside a tent inside a shelter does a better job of keeping away mosquitos then just being in a tent out in the woods?
you can't make this stuff up.
Hexacuba Shelter in Virginia, pouring rain, the creek in front of the shelter is at flood stage, no way in the world I'm going to try and wade out to set up my tent in the mud, as dark falls the rain lets up and the mosquitoes are absolutely thick. Needless to say I got eaten alive that night, I didn't set up my tent inside the shelter because it's not free standing. That's about the only time out of my 6 month hike that I would have done it if I could, and outside of that I saw one guy set up in a (full) shelter and there were no issues.
Hangfire
11-04-2016, 16:21
Caught red handed...from the 2014 DDodd AT series. I can remember watching this video prior to my departure and wondering why they are setting up their tents in the shelter, "just because"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuu9w8dUSCw
Furlough
11-04-2016, 16:34
My point was that perhaps I need to be more considerate of where others might be coming from when they do things that I think are inconsiderate. Good grief, how is it that I write a post acknowledging that I may have been wrong to judge someone else's intentions, yet I end up being scolded? lol
Because while reading is said to be fundamental clearly in this case comprehension was not.
Sarcasm the elf
11-04-2016, 16:46
I saw a lot of inconsiderate and ignorant behavior on the trail. I made the decision before the hike, not to attempt to become the trail police, for my own sanity. Few people enjoy being called out on their behavior, no matter how gently.
A lot of the complaints I read about the trail, often seem to ignore their own behavior. Like the classic stupid old men waking up early, being loud and ruining my hike, as opposed to the stupid young girl shrieking in laughter late into the night and ruining my hike rebuttal.
Even when people annoyed me, I made a point not to retaliate in kind. It's easy enough to go along on your own way and find a quieter, more serene campsite the following night.
This may be the best post in the thread.
Rain Man
11-05-2016, 11:05
This may be the best post in the thread.
I concur. Very good post.
Rain Man
11-05-2016, 11:07
Hexacuba Shelter in Virginia....
Did I miss something?
MuddyWaters
11-05-2016, 11:19
I concur. Very good post.
Yes
If you are truly bothered by shelter activities, you really have wrong expectations . They are what they are, your not gonna change them to be what you want them to be.
Roll with it, or stay away.
Applies to most things in life :)
Many, many people are misrrable and stressed because they want to control everything around them. The secret to happiness, is basically opposite....because....you...cant.
One of the first things I did when I started hiking was deliberately burn a used Mountain House bag at a shelter fire pit to inspect whether it would burn in its entirety. The next morning the fire was out and the ashes cold. I stirred the ashes and looked for any trace of the bag remains and could find none. I even removed the ashes and sifted through them. Nothing.
I probably have only burned bags a half dozen times in a little less than two months and over 500 miles of hiking the AT. The rest of the time I carried them out. In those half dozen time I always looked to see if there were remains, but never as thoroughly as the first time. I have never found remains.
If the fire is a really huge intense inferno, burning many hours, almost like a crematory -- it is conceivable that items that would not usually burn to ashes might. But most of us know enough to keep campfires small so if we do that, most times, not so much. It's not supposed to be a bonfire, it's a little campfire -- large enough to produce some coals to cook over, warm your hands, etc. Besides, it takes way too much effort to gather enough wood and continue feeding a bonfire. It's also selfish as you consume a lot more wood, leaving little or nothing for those who come along days/weeks/months later.
I have slept in shelters. I have slept in tents. I still cannot wrap my mind around what a tenter is thinking, setting up in a shelter. The shelter adds nothing to the tent. The tent takes much away from the shelter. And for every shelter I have seen, there are always plenty of tent sites nearby.
Seriously, though, the only thing a shelter is, is a replacement for a rainfly, at best.
Those of you who tent in shelters or under the behavior... What *is* it that the shelter adds to the tent that I am failing to realize?
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I've never done this, as I don't like to sleep in shelters under ANY conditions. However, as somewhat of an explanation, I've been told by others one scenario that seems moderately reasonable:
In Deep Winter (temps near 20F or below with brisk wind chills below 0F), when a hiker has not seen a soul on a trail for days, setting up a tent inside a shelter might be acceptable as it probably decreases the cold significantly -- as you'd be out of the wind. Especially if you put up a tarp across the front of the shelter. But even though you may not believe anyone else will show up in this scenario, if enough people do and your tent is preventing them from using the shelter floor you should expect to take it down and either set it up on the ground to use -- or sleep inside the shelter on a pad like they would do.
In my view, most people who show up late to shelters have a pretty good system to unpack and stay out of peoples ways, having tents in a shelter is just plain stupid, and to give a quote about that, "“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” - Mark Twain
Shelters within a mile or two of a trailhead get lots of latecomers -- especially on weekends. Many of these people are inexperienced. They found that shelter on a map, decided the perfect scenario for them was to drive two hours after work, park, and hike in. I would not expect relative newbies to have a "system" of any kind, much less understand etiquette that many experienced LD hikers try to live by.
Another good reason to stay in a tent far enough away from shelters that this sort of thing is irrelevant to you. Up to a quarter mile away works for me, and allows me to use the shelter's other amenities (fire ring, picnic table, water source, privy, etc.) and also socialize if desired. But when it's time to sleep, being near others (at a shelter or even close to other tenters) is not the best way to go.
You never know if someone is filling up their bottle further downstream. The trail (or a different trail) may cross that spring or stream in another place that you can't see or know about. That is why many people carry a collapsible bucket they can scoop water and carry to a different location. There is nothing more disgusting than going to a spring to get some drinking water or water to cook with and you see bits of macaroni in it from someone who decided to clean their pot there.
I carry an inflatable dog bowl with me, available online, in pet stores, or even larger WalMarts. I inflate it to provide a vessel for soapy water for washing me and my cooking gear. "Dirty" water gets dumped away from the water source. Then deflate. Weighs little, takes very little room. Problem(s) solved.
This isn't the one I use, but you get the idea...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA1p4Bf9_gk
Hangfire
11-05-2016, 13:34
Did I miss something?
Dicks Dome...
MuddyWaters
11-05-2016, 13:45
I saw a solid half dozen tents pitched in Overmountain shelter , by thruhikers that had made it that far. Not weekenders etc.
The biggest reasons I think, was there was plenty of room, and it keeps mice away, and keeps all your stuff together..
Plenty of other thrus were camping near shelter and not in it, and several were sleeping in it, and not in tents.
Most are just pitching their inner, not fly, etc. That would be dumb.
Did I miss something?
Hexacuba Shelter is in NH, not VA.
Sandy of PA
11-05-2016, 15:45
Dicks Dome in VA is very buggy, a new shelter is under construction up the hill from it just out of the bug zone. A net inner is needed to sleep in Dicks Dome.
Hangfire
11-05-2016, 17:54
Hexacuba Shelter is in NH, not VA.
You're right, Dicks Dome was the geodesic dome, the Hexacuba shelter is a long ways from there.
Shelters within a mile or two of a trailhead get lots of latecomers -- especially on weekends. Many of these people are inexperienced. They found that shelter on a map, decided the perfect scenario for them was to drive two hours after work, park, and hike in. I would not expect relative newbies to have a "system" of any kind, much less understand etiquette that many experienced LD hikers try to live by.
Another good reason to stay in a tent far enough away from shelters that this sort of thing is irrelevant to you. Up to a quarter mile away works for me, and allows me to use the shelter's other amenities (fire ring, picnic table, water source, privy, etc.) and also socialize if desired. But when it's time to sleep, being near others (at a shelter or even close to other tenters) is not the best way to go.
This is very true about shelters close to trailheads, I was not considering that in my post. However I would never use a shelter that near to a trail head for the exact reasons you listed.
Kudos to the OP for sharing his experience that maybe we shouldn't use snap judgement when dealing with inexperienced hikers. Both he and the offending shelter hog learned something about life on the trail.
From this thread (I've read this entire godforsaken thing), I've learned to stay the hell away from shelters, don't wash your food trash in springs and don't burn anything other that wood in the fire ring. Also, have some humility when dealing with people on the trail (and whiteblaze).
Other than not tenting in a shelter (that horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp), what have you seen on the trail that has been inconsiderate or ignorant? Maybe I'll learn something else.
StubbleJumper
11-06-2016, 10:15
Kudos to the OP for sharing his experience that maybe we shouldn't use snap judgement when dealing with inexperienced hikers. Both he and the offending shelter hog learned something about life on the trail.
From this thread (I've read this entire godforsaken thing), I've learned to stay the hell away from shelters, don't wash your food trash in springs and don't burn anything other that wood in the fire ring. Also, have some humility when dealing with people on the trail (and whiteblaze).
Other than not tenting in a shelter (that horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp), what have you seen on the trail that has been inconsiderate or ignorant? Maybe I'll learn something else.
Well, just off the top of my head:
1) Hikers who let their badly behaved dog run off-leash. I've encountered many slightly aggressive dogs with the owner a hundred yards behind.
2) Hikers who fail to yield right-of-way to on-coming uphill hikers. This is a basic thing that experienced hikers know and about which the inexperienced are ignorant.
3) Hikers who have clearly taken a leak right on the trail, or who have taken a dump within 30 feet of the trail. Who wants to look at yellow snow or used TP?
4) Hikers who arrive at camp in the dark and then feel the need to look directly at you with their headlamp when they talk to you. Turn the headlamp down or look askew when speaking to people who are already at camp.
5) People who let their dog drink directly from the shelter spring where everybody else sources their drinking water.
Well, that's about one minute's contribution...
Rain Man
11-06-2016, 10:27
2) Hikers who fail to yield right-of-way to on-coming uphill hikers. This is a basic thing that experienced hikers know and about which the inexperienced are ignorant.
Not sure that this is a "basic thing" at all, nor that only the ignorant don't know this "rule."
StubbleJumper
11-06-2016, 10:43
Not sure that this is a "basic thing" at all, nor that only the ignorant don't know this "rule."
It is a basic thing. Google "alpine hiker right of way" and you'll see scads of articles. My observation is that weekenders are rarely aware of it, but anyone who has logged major miles with alpine sections knows that basic bit of etiquette (and yes, they also know to yield to llamas, horses, mules and donkeys). It's really common sense.
colorado_rob
11-06-2016, 11:18
It is a basic thing. Google "alpine hiker right of way" and you'll see scads of articles. My observation is that weekenders are rarely aware of it, but anyone who has logged major miles with alpine sections knows that basic bit of etiquette (and yes, they also know to yield to llamas, horses, mules and donkeys). It's really common sense.It might be a "basic thing", but passing on the trail is so highly situational, there are many times when it makes way more sense to do the opposite.
Funny thread, threads like this really bring out the self righteous! (not talking about your right of way post, Stubble).
Even though we all love this great pastime (long distance hiking), it can be really stressful out there sometimes, and the bottom line is that we all really have to chill out and give folks who "break the rules of etiquette" some slack.
Sure, hogging a shelter with tents can be rude, depending, but so can arriving after "hiker midnight" (dark) and making a fuss. both should be given some slack.
Best thing is to just relax and enjoy and don't get your knickers in a twist do easily!
Best thing is to just relax and enjoy and don't get your knickers in a twist do easily![/QUOTE]
Well said sir.
MuddyWaters
11-06-2016, 12:50
It might be a "basic thing", but passing on the trail is so highly situational, there are many times when it makes way more sense to do the opposite.
Funny thread, threads like this really bring out the self righteous!
I usually stop no matter what, uness they stop first.
Often we both stop and chat.
One bad experience I ever had with this, a scout leader (and new hiker) in our troop berated a passing group for not yielding to us when our troops met going opposite directions. It was embarasing because its so insignificant, and only a fool would get offended.
Some people just have to express newfound knowledge.
Not sure that this is a "basic thing" at all, nor that only the ignorant don't know this "rule."
Yeah, I don't know who made this thing "basic", or even why it is courteous to to do. If I'm going uphill, I guarantee I'll be the first to stop and let the downhill hiker pass.
More often than not, the hiker with a good place to step aside (no rocks, cliffs, poison ivy, etc) is the one to yield.
uphill has the right of way is most definitely a "basic thing." it is, in fact, one of the first "rules" of hiking i ever learned. the fact that all of you are ignorant of it doesnt prove that it isnt basic, it proves that you are, as the person who brought it up would suggest, ignorant (as many are) of what is indeed a very basic rule of hiking etiquette.
its like cyclists in any major city. by law, they are supposed to follow the same tragic rules as cars. stop at stop signs, red lights, not go the wrong way on a one way, etc etc etc. if 3% of cyclists have ever heard of any of this i'd be shocked. it seems the vast majority of them never have. that makes them ignorant. it doesnt make those things not the law.
its funny, "we" are never the ignorant one. other people who have never heard of something might be ignorant, but when it us, well, if we havent heard of it must not "be a thing." funny quirk of human nature.
MuddyWaters
11-06-2016, 16:22
Id like to know who made it up.
Because there isnt any rules.
there isnt any governing body of hiking.
some dumbass suggested it, and its been tossed around now and then by media since. They suggested a rule because they thought people were too stupid to know how to handle an approaching person by themselves.
Its pointless
Its stupid
No one follows it
No one cares
road rules are laws designed to protect people, and quite different.
Everyone agrees not farting at the dinner table is good. Thats what makes it etiquette.
If people dont agree or see a need.....its not.
No one agrees, or sees a need for this stupid idea, and so no one pays any attention.
allowing horses to pass, makes sense , you dont want to spook them on a steep trail, or walk off it with the horrible damage they do.
Bikes....you are definitely able to get off trail easier, and you really dont want them to drive off the trail anyway
people...give me a break. figure it out for yourself.
Id like to know who made it up.
Because there isnt any rules.
there isnt any governing body of hiking.
some dumbass suggested it, and its been tossed around now and then by media since. They suggested a rule because they thought people were too stupid to know how to handle an approaching person by themselves.
Its pointless
Its stupid
No one follows it
No one cares
road rules are laws designed to protect people, and quite different.
Everyone agrees not farting at the dinner table is good. Thats what makes it etiquette.
If people dont agree or see a need.....its not.
No one agrees, or sees a need for this stupid idea, and so no one pays any attention.
allowing horses to pass, makes sense , you dont want to spook them on a steep trail, or walk off it with the horrible damage they do.
Bikes....you are definitely able to get off trail easier, and you really dont want them to drive off the trail anyway
people...give me a break. figure it out for yourself.
got to the grand canyon and hiked. it stressed there as part of the trail ettiquette. as another has said here, google it and you'll see as well.its a rule.many many people are ignorant of it. but it is a rule. i suppose one day if enough people continue to ignore it itll cease to be a rule.
MuddyWaters
11-06-2016, 16:47
got to the grand canyon and hiked. it stressed there as part of the trail ettiquette. as another has said here, google it and you'll see as well.its a rule.many many people are ignorant of it. but it is a rule. i suppose one day if enough people continue to ignore it itll cease to be a rule.
I bet I yielded to 100-200 people coming down from trailcrest after Whitney. By halfway down the 99 switchbacks, I was ready to kick every person coming up between their legs. Also f'in tired of giving nice cheerful greetings.
I bet I yielded to 100-200 people coming down from trailcrest after Whitney. By halfway down the 99 switchbacks, I was ready to kick every person coming up between their legs. Also f'in tired of giving nice cheerful greetings.
all that proves is a lot of ignorant people hike on mt whitney. never been, from everything ive heard that sounds about right.
uphill has the right of way is most definitely a "basic thing." it is, in fact, one of the first "rules" of hiking i ever learned. the fact that all of you are ignorant of it doesnt prove that it isnt basic, it proves that you are, as the person who brought it up would suggest, ignorant (as many are) of what is indeed a very basic rule of hiking etiquette.
Serious question:
About when did this rule of etiquette come into being?
I became an Eagle Scout in 1976, so I am thinking that I got my hiking merit badge a few years earlier.
Pretty sure this rule was not well established back then, though I suppose it is possible.
admirald7s
11-06-2016, 17:40
got to the grand canyon and hiked. it stressed there as part of the trail ettiquette. as another has said here, google it and you'll see as well.its a rule.many many people are ignorant of it. but it is a rule. i suppose one day if enough people continue to ignore it itll cease to be a rule.
From my point of view, a rule without a consequence for breaking it is really just a guideline. Maybe particular parks encourage (and perhaps even enforce) this "rule," but I've never heard of it until this thread.
As others have mentioned, I also examine each encounter individually. It's really not challenging to figure out who has the easier time of stepping aside.
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Sarcasm the elf
11-06-2016, 20:05
This is just getting silly. If you feel like you need to have a "rule" to tell you how to properly walk past another human being on something as leisurely as the appalachian trail then you might want to take some time to work on your ability to play nice with others...
Sarcasm the elf
11-06-2016, 20:09
From my point of view, a rule without a consequence for breaking it is really just a guideline. Maybe particular parks encourage (and perhaps even enforce) this "rule," but I've never heard of it until this thread.
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Amazingly I managed to hike in the woods for the past near 30 years, spend hundreds of nights in the woods and earn the rank of Eagle scout without ever having difficulty figuring out how to walk past another hiker. Never had an issue*, not once.
*With the exception of the 40-plus person tour bus leafer groups on bear mountain, but that's a different issue.
Serious question:
About when did this rule of etiquette come into being?
I became an Eagle Scout in 1976, so I am thinking that I got my hiking merit badge a few years earlier.
Pretty sure this rule was not well established back then, though I suppose it is possible.
dont know. as i said it is a point of emphasis at the grand canyon and other such places. and another poster mentioned it before i did and backed it up with an internet reference.
its a thing. because youve never heard of it doesnt mean it isnt. is it commonly practiced? obviously not. does make it not so.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=yield%20to%20hiker%20going%20uphill
myself and the other person who bought it up are not just imagining things. sorry to break it to all of you
or even easier. click ehre and read rule #1-
http://www.backpacker.com/skills/beginner/prof-hike-5-unwritten-rules-of-trail-etiquette/
yeah yeah i know. disregard it because its backpacker magazine. whatever.
colorado_rob
11-06-2016, 21:39
blah, blah, blah.... sorry to break it to all of you What a piece of work. And what a sleuth, finding all those links that we all know what is said already! Wow, impressive.
But sorry, as said below, there is no "rule", given that there is no "hiking authority", it's just a common convention which really never comes into play except in the minds of the self-righteous, and multi-posters (those that make multiple posts in a row, hoping beyond hope that we actually read their vast insight).
lots of you folks are big REI fans, right? maybe you'll beleive them if you dont like backpacker magazine? scroll down to hikers vs hikers
http://blog.rei.com/hike/trail-etiquette-who-has-the-right-of-way/
but of course im really just wasting my time. theres no way any of you can possibly not know something and you can be shown 2 million citations and you'll stillinsist that since YOU never heard of it, it must not be so.
love the human race.
What a piece of work. And what a sleuth, finding all those links that we all know what is said already! Wow, impressive.
But sorry, as said below, there is no "rule", given that there is no "hiking authority", it's just a common convention which really never comes into play except in the minds of the self-righteous.umm ll of these things are "common conventions" and not actual "laws." not taking a dump in a spring isnt a law, its etiquette. not getting up at 2 am and screaming for everyone to wake up isnt a law, its a convention. ist etiquette.
next pointless statement instead of just admitting there was something you didnt know?
Sarcasm the elf
11-06-2016, 21:44
People can try to make up whatever nonsense they want, they can even try to popularize it, but unless the idea can stand on it's own merits and has a real purpose then it's still nothing more than nonsense.
Yielding to horses or downhill bike/runners has a merit because it is a prudent safety precaution. Arguing about which of two slow moving hikers has the right of way is little more than a mix of ego and a likely need for authority.
In other words.
https://youtu.be/Pubd-spHN-0
People can try to make up whatever nonsense they want, they can even try to popularize it, but unless the idea can stand on it's own merits and has a real purpose then it's still nothing more than nonsense.
Yielding to horses or downhill bike/runners has a merit because it is a prudent safety precaution. Arguing about which of two slow moving hikers has the right of way is little more than a mix of ego and a likely need for authority.
In other words.
https://youtu.be/Pubd-spHN-0
look, i'm not even advocating whether the convention has merit or is worthwhile. but to claim it isnt a convention is demonstrably not true, no matter how much you try and deny it.
theinfamousj
11-06-2016, 21:54
I am well aware of the trail etiquette of giving way to those climbing, but I wondered if anyone knows why it evolved? Seems counterintuitive and a bit arbitrary.
It is harder to stop when going down a steep grade, especially on the knees, and similarly going up a steep grade affords a brief chance to rest if you can pause for a passerby. Or at least that has always been my experience. So clearly, I am missing something here as well?
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I am well aware of the trail etiquette of giving way to those climbing, but I wondered if anyone knows why it evolved? Seems counterintuitive and a bit arbitrary.
It is harder to stop when going down a steep grade, especially on the knees, and similarly going up a steep grade affords a brief chance to rest if you can pause for a passerby. Or at least that has always been my experience. So clearly, I am missing something here as well?
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the theory (again, not advocating it, it isnt my theory, i'm just repeating what is commonly said, is that it is easier for the downhill person to stop and then start up again then it is for the uphill hiker. if the uphill hiker wants to rest and yield the right of way, he/she can, but it is the uphill hiker's decision, not the downhill hiker's.
perhaps the confusion is not underdtanding what having the "right of way" means. this isnt saying it is a rule that the uphill hiker MUST keep going and the downhill hiker MUST stop. it is that who stops and who goes is at the discretion of the uphill hiker, not the downhill hiker.
but again, i'm not espousing this rule or criticizing anyone who doesnt follow it, thinks its stupid, etc etc. but it is a rule of hiking etiquette, and if you don't know it, sorry, but you are ignorant.
its ok, accept it. learn something. itll be alright.
Sarcasm the elf
11-06-2016, 22:08
look, i'm not even advocating whether the convention has merit or is worthwhile. but to claim it isnt a convention is demonstrably not true, no matter how much you try and deny it.
I know that some people advocate for it, my argument is that it doesn't have any merit. I could see a congested and heavily managed place such as the grand canyon needing extra guidelines to properly manage their trails and allow better management of the huge number of hikers they see in a fragile environment, but I don't think that it translates to a need for it on other trails.
In addition to that having downhill hikers yielding to uphill hikers just doesn't make sense since they have gravity working against them, which is why both bikers and trail runners yield way to people going downhill. Personally I just slow down and say hi to everyone I meet, since while it may not be obvious from my posts on this site, I'm a nice person in real life. ;)
I know that some people advocate for it, my argument is that it doesn't have any merit. I could see a congested and heavily managed place such as the grand canyon needing extra guidelines to properly manage their trails and allow better management of the huge number of hikers they see in a fragile environment, but I don't think that it translates to a need for it on other trails.
In addition to that having downhill hikers yielding to uphill hikers just doesn't make sense since they have gravity working against them, which is why both bikers and trail runners yield way to people going downhill. Personally I just slow down and say hi to everyone I meet, since I'm a nice person in real life.
you're absolutely entitled to that perspective. you might be right. i'm not getting into that argument
however, uphill hiker has the right of way **IS** an established rule of hiking etiquette.
if someone knows this, thinks its dumb and chooses to ignore it, thats one thing. if someone doesnt know it, its ignorant.
the argument "ive never heard of it, therefore it isnt a rule" is just... i cant describe it in polite language.
Often times two hikers can hike past one another without stopping.
Do the rules say each of us should always stay to the right even if the trail is slabbing a slope?
If we are going in the same direction, does etiquette demand I say "on your left" or it that just assumed?
Often times two hikers can hike past one another without stopping.
Do the rules say each of us should always stay to the right even if the trail is slabbing a slope?
If we are going in the same direction, does etiquette demand I say "on your left" or it that just assumed?
as for the first question, if there is no need to yield the point would seem to be moot.
as for the other's, i dont know. if there are rules of etiquette that address those things, i am ignorant of them.
see how easy that was?
Sarcasm the elf
11-06-2016, 22:30
Well there's only one real authority that we can turn to on this matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZlBUglE6Hc
I find if I walk very quietly, the hiker in front of me will jump out of the way once he finally realizes I am right on his heals.
I know that some people advocate for it, my argument is that it doesn't have any merit. I could see a congested and heavily managed place such as the grand canyon needing extra guidelines to properly manage their trails and allow better management of the huge number of hikers they see in a fragile environment, but I don't think that it translates to a need for it on other trails.
In addition to that having downhill hikers yielding to uphill hikers just doesn't make sense since they have gravity working against them, which is why both bikers and trail runners yield way to people going downhill. Personally I just slow down and say hi to everyone I meet, since while it may not be obvious from my posts on this site, I'm a nice person in real life. ;)
its hiking etiquette to yield the right of way to an uphill hiking hiker. When I first heard it, I was an out of shape 40 something that welcomed the chance to stop walking up hill. I spent some time thinking about it since then and realized that someone walking down hill is actually looking down the trail and can see someone walking towards them long before the uphill hiking hiker can see them. The downhill hiking hiker can pull off at a safe spot on the trail and allow the uphill hiking hiker to pass safely, and in most cases, scare the bejeesus out of them by a bright and friendly "Good Morning!"
What does the uphill hiking hiker see when walking uphill? The trail 5 or 10 feet in front of his or her face. They do not have the energy to crane their neck back to look up the trail, and in some cases it may be dangerous to do so as their pack weight pulls them backwards. Yeah, only noobs ignore that "rule".
Dont be a noob.
StubbleJumper
11-06-2016, 23:24
Id like to know who made it up.
Because there isnt any rules.
there isnt any governing body of hiking.
Well, you've pretty much hit it on the head. When we speak of courtesy or etiquette, you are absolutely correct, there are no rules. It's exactly the same in real life. There is absolutely no law rule preventing me from walking up to your wife and telling her what I think of her body and what I think she'd be good at in bed. But you know what? It would be downright rude and inappropriate. But it's not illegal to say rude and inappropriate things. It's just inconsiderate (and you'd be right to punch me in the nose for doing it!).
And that's how it is with hiking etiquette. There are no enforceable rules or laws. We all must govern our own behaviour by trying to be considerate of others. Most of the breaches of etiquette mentioned in this thread do not merit a punch in the nose, but they certainly merit social exclusion at a minimum.
Turning once again to the question of yielding to uphill hikers, the reality of a great many steep climbs is that there is not always adequate room for two parties to pass simultaneously. If somebody going uphill elects to stop for a breather or to chat, that's his choice. But otherwise, the considerate thing to do is for the downhill hiker to yield. Frankly, on a long 3,000 foot climb, we all hope to establish a climbing rhythm and maintain a steady cadence to take us to the top (this is particularly true if you are hiking with a loaded pack at altitude). Interrupting that cadence and rhythm makes a climb much more difficult. On the other hand, when going downhill, the challenge is not to sustain a cadence, but rather to keep yourself from going too fast. It's much easier to stop and re-start when you are going downhill than when you are going uphill.
If you choose to not yield to uphill traffic, that's fine; it's not illegal. Just keep in mind that it puts you in the same class of people who make rude comments to women or who drive slowly in the left lane on the highway.
jjozgrunt
11-06-2016, 23:28
I find if I walk very quietly, the hiker in front of me will jump out of the way once he finally realizes I am right on his heals.
That's really not nice.
There is nothing worse than the old being scared from behind, and then having to walk off the trail to change the underwear.
I have known people who have stalked the offender and at night lured blood thirsty drop bears to their tent, and laugh as the offender was eaten.
36870
We here in the Alps have the habit of the downhill-people giving way to the uphill-goer. Or, in a wider aspect, the ones with the easier task giving way to the one having the more tedious and difficult task.
Similar to the habit of the one approaching a resting group should greet first.
This we dont understand as rules, but as our kind of politeness (if we have any at all).
rocketsocks
11-07-2016, 10:40
...and remember! When a upgrade traveler approaches it is always customary for the down trodden to express said verbiage's "you're almost there" and directly after passing, cackle crow like wiph a bit of a whimsical hyena laugh.
Thought this is only for Brits (the infamous British Black Humor?)
This is just getting silly. If you feel like you need to have a "rule" to tell you how to properly walk past another human being on something as leisurely as the appalachian trail then you might want to take some time to work on your ability to play nice with others...
+100000000000000000000
Another Kevin
11-07-2016, 12:12
I had a time a couple of years ago when my life offered me enough of a breather that I managed to get out at least a couple of weekends a month, and for a two-week hiking vacation. For once in my life I started to find my 'trail legs'. I found that I did get into a cadence hiking uphill, and appreciated those who would step aside. Most of the time, though, I'll just step aside for anyone that I see coming. If I'm being overtaken from behind, well, I'm slower than everybody, so that's perfectly ok.
Exceptions made, of course, when stepping aside means stepping into water, air, vertical rock, or dense spruce.
Sometimes I'll give a halloa when I'm starting down a lemon squeeze or other narrow section, in case there's someone coming up it. That's always followed with, "OK, you come on through. I'll wait."
Another Kevin
11-07-2016, 12:32
With winter coming, let me add a pet peeve of mine. Postholes. If there's a foot of snow about, put on your @^&#$%!! snowshoes - for the safety of others! When powder snow drifts, it disguises the holes you left, and the hikers behind you will trip in the holes. If this happens on a trail that follows a narrow ledge, it can be disastrous. New York actually requires snowshoes or skis when a trail is covered with eight inches or more of snow. (They will look the other way at those who are using crampons appropriately and have their snowshoes with them. Whoever drafted the regulation didn't consider that case, but any ranger who sees you in those conditions will be wearing his own crampons.)
I'm remembering one offender in particular, who was trusting a well-broken trail to hold him - with about 4-5 feet of snow on the ground. Every few dozen yards, he'd broken through and left a posthole that went down to the second joint on one of my poles. Sometimes, he left a tank trap as he wallowed about getting back onto the packed trail. I fell flat on my face in one of them. Fortunately, the snow was a soft landing. How the guy thought he was going to make progress when he kept sinking like that is beyond me.
https://c6.staticflickr.com/3/2805/12578756293_8a7564317f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/kaxq1v)Posthole (https://flic.kr/p/kaxq1v) by Kevin Kenny (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/), on Flickr
Seems to me that if you look at other traffic situations in life you find that the person or vehicle that can most easily maneuver is the one who must yield. Examples include vehicles yielding to pedestrians, small boats yielding to larger boats/ships. In the case of two hikers meeting head on on a trail, one ascending and one descending, it seems to me that the one descending can most easily stop and start again.
Seems to me that if you look at other traffic situations in life you find that the person or vehicle that can most easily maneuver is the one who must yield. Examples include vehicles yielding to pedestrians, small boats yielding to larger boats/ships. In the case of two hikers meeting head on on a trail, one ascending and one descending, it seems to me that the one descending can most easily stop and start again.
Assuming, of course, that the one descending is still in control of their descent - if not then anyone else on the trail best get as far off as possible ;)
I'm not as polite as you. I would've woken their asses up, yelled and shook their tents and told them to take the dam tent down. The longer you hike the AT, the more you run into idiots like that.
I'm not as polite as you. I would've woken their asses up, yelled and shook their tents and told them to take the dam tent down. The longer you hike the AT, the more you run into idiots like that.
Indelible note to self:
Avoid idiots.
Wayne
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Slow Trek
09-23-2017, 22:54
tagg is flat out right,shelters are not a place for tents,period. We experienced a similar rudeness after a very long day. Two tents where 8 people should be. Tents are built to be put on the ground. A blizzard where you are alone seems ok. Other than that,it is simply wrong. Think of a shelter as a hostel,do you pitch a tent inside there?
once inconsideration has been clearly established, a displacement of the offenders hiking foot ware ( in the woods 100 yds up the trail) will send a lasting reminder that there are consequences
I saw this one in the Whites this summer, 4-people, gear scattered wall to wall
40384
As a new hiker, I will honestly say, while I know that it is not a good idea to set up a tent in a shelter, there may be some things that I do that may not be the "right" thing to do. Truth be told, that is one of my biggest fears as I get started. I have been on some forums and seen some newbies get reamed for something they "should know better than to do" when in actuality, they didn't know better because they had not reached that part of their research yet. I read a lot and do a lot of research so I am learning things every day but most of it I have learned because of my reading and research and not because anyone bothered to take the time to teach me. (Or that there was anyone to teach me for that matter.)
I have never been worried about a tent in a shelter when I'm alone or with one or two others.
At the same time when the weather is bad and space is tight It hasn't occurred to me to use a tent in a shelter.
Ok. I still haven't pitched a tent in a shelter but I'm still thinking about it.
Slo-go'en
09-25-2017, 12:19
I have never been worried about a tent in a shelter when I'm alone or with one or two others.
At the same time when the weather is bad and space is tight It hasn't occurred to me to use a tent in a shelter.
Ok. I still haven't pitched a tent in a shelter but I'm still thinking about it.
The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.
perdidochas
09-25-2017, 13:10
I know this topic has been beaten to death on here, but I recently experienced a situation while on a 10 day section hike that I wanted to share because of the way in which in ended...
My partner and I pulled 21 miles on the first day of our trip because it was raining all day (this was a few weeks ago when Hurricane Matthew came up the coast), so there wasn't much to do other than walk. We had just entered the southern part of SNP, so camping spots were limited and we decided to push on after dark into Calf Mountain Shelter, arriving a little after 9:00pm. I had no intention of staying in the shelter, as I've only slept in a few in over 1000 miles on the AT, but my buddy was dragging and was very much looking forward to getting there, throwing down his pad, and going to sleep. It's pretty much all he talked about for the last few miles in a cold, dark rain. We expected others to be there, and understand that space is first come/first served, but we still figured it wouldn't be full.
But as we walked up, wet and tired, we saw that it was indeed full. Full of tents. Three of them to be exact, one of which was a huge 2-3 person tent. Between the tents and their gear, there was literally no space left. My buddy sat at the picnic table right next to the shelter, exhausted and over it, and let his thoughts be heard, but none of them stirred or stuck their heads out to offer to make room. I went about hanging my hammock and then found a spot for him to set up his tent, which he did, and everything was fine...but it was really frustrating, particularly to my partner. There is no way they didn't hear us come in or hear us talking about it, but they all held their breaths and didn't move a muscle until we left the table. The next morning, they packed up early and we never even got a look at them before they broke camp.
Fast forward a couple of days, and we're taking a late afternoon break at one of the huts before moving on for a few more miles, and a guy who was already set up behind the shelter walks up as we're putting our packs back on to inform us that he was one of the people tenting in the shelter that first night. He said he heard us when we got there, was surprised that anyone else showed up that late, and told us that he "didn't understand hiking etiquette" when he set up his tent in the shelter. He said that he felt badly as he listened to us set up in the rain, that he would never make that mistake again, and he apologized multiple times.
I would have thought that not setting up a huge tent in the shelter falls more under the lines of common sense than "hiking etiquette," however the fact that this dude acknowledged it and owned it when we never would have known it was him was a stand-up thing to do, and tells me that he genuinely did not know he was being inconsiderate. It has also given me pause to consider that sometimes when somebody throws their trash in the fire pit or washes their dishes in a spring or does something else ridiculous like that, maybe they're just ignorant and not actually an a-hole? Food for thought.
IMHO, ignorance to a degree is inconsiderate. You need to learn the rules and informal guidelines when you do something new.
perdidochas
09-25-2017, 13:18
Having said that, I've run across Boy Scout groups completely monopolizing shelters with large groups where there have been signs posted along the AT to limit group sizes to 10 or fewer. To me, that is inexcusable and not a matter of "sorry, we didn't know." I even had a ridge runner tell me that BS groups lie about such things all the time. They, as an organized group holding themselves out as superior, have a responsibility to know such things. Sorry, Boy Scout fans, but that's the way I see that.
I'm a former Boy Scout leader (only former because my boys are too old for it), and I agree with you 100%. Boy Scouts shouldn't be sleeping in shelters when backpacking in groups of more than 3 or 4. Just isn't courteous (one of our rules). I apologize for the actions of my fellow Scouters.
perdidochas
09-25-2017, 13:22
A group using a shelter is not informed or conserate, as they are explicitly not for them.
Also if non youth sharing sleeping quarters particularly non scout in uncontrolled environment, they are in violation of bsa youth protection policies.
Typical scout leaders
Speaking as a former scout leader, I agree with you. Scouts shouldn't be in shelters and sharing spaces with folks they don't know. Scouts should be in their tents, tarps or hammocks.
perdidochas
09-25-2017, 13:23
Never miss a chance to say something negative about Scouts, do you. How do you know that the boys in the shelter with adult leaders weren't fathers with thier sons thus no violation of BSA policy? At least they didn't have their tents set up in the shelter.
I say good for the leaders for taking their time, and probably also at their expense, to take a group of boys who otherwise would probably never get a chance to see the AT.
The boys should be in tents, not sharing spaces with adults. The only way your scenario about fathers/sons would work is if one father and his sons were in the shelter. Once the second father is part of it, it becomes against the rules.
The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.
I tend to be places during the off seasons, but it seems that if I'm alone in an eight person shelter it should be ok to set up a tent come night fall. If people show up later and there isn't enough room, I can take it down.
The only reason I would put one up is rain/cold/blowing wind.
Otherwise it is just a waste waste of time and effort.
Now if you mean wait until hikers midnight then we are on all fours in agreement.
The thing is, you might be alone in the shelter when you set up the tent inside it, but you don't know how many others might show up later. If you wait until midnight and your still alone, then maybe set up the tent.
I cannot speak to the norm during the contemporary NOBO bubble, but keeping in mind that shelters also exist off the AT and people use the ones on the AT 12months a year, I would be far more put off by a Hiker arriving at my shelter so long after dark than I would be to find a tent in one early in the evening.
No matter what the Whiteblaze wisdom is regarding coming into a shelter close to midnight turns out to be, there is no way in hell I can imagine subjecting late arrival myself.
I could be out of touch, however.
perdidochas
09-25-2017, 13:30
"People who arent registered and background checked by bsa arent allowed to be around scouts on scout activities. Even parents get background checked to accompany their kids on scout functions."
Please site the document that states that scouts are not allowed to be around other people on scout activities or that parents need background checks.
I've been a Scoutmaster for 10 years and this is total BS. Recently my troop visited the local indoor climbing center. The staff there took them for several hours, they were not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when the local park ranger took our guys on a nature hike, he was not BSA registered. Or maybe the time when they visited the local fire station, or a thousand other places. Why in the world would we want to segregate scouts from the rest of the world?
And one more point. You take a group of scouts to public place, from McDonald to the Smithsonian and they need to use the bathroom, guess what, there are men in there with the boys. That's the real world.
Parents aren't required by national BSA to have background checks to go on outings with the boys. They may be required by local troop leadership to do so (and IMHO, it's a good idea).
The rule applicable to shelters is that Scouts are not to sleep in a shelter (be it tent, cabin room, or hotel room) with an adult that is not their parent.
perdidochas
09-25-2017, 13:32
You never know if someone is filling up their bottle further downstream. The trail (or a different trail) may cross that spring or stream in another place that you can't see or know about. That is why many people carry a collapsible bucket they can scoop water and carry to a different location. There is nothing more disgusting than going to a spring to get some drinking water or water to cook with and you see bits of macaroni in it from someone who decided to clean their pot there.
There are a lot of things that people do in springs and leave evidence of, that are more disgusting than the above.
Longboysfan
09-25-2017, 14:17
Sad to say, but there needs to be a sign which says "No tents in the huts". $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for 1st violation.
I'll go with that.
Longboysfan
09-25-2017, 14:23
If the tents hadn't been set up in the shelter you two would have gone in there and woken everybody up unloading your gear and getting your stuff in order. Totally inconsiderate. If you show up at a shelter and everybody is in bed, you need to find another place to camp.
I could live with late hikers into the shelter.
Longboysfan
09-25-2017, 14:34
One of the first things I did when I started hiking was deliberately burn a used Mountain House bag at a shelter fire pit to inspect whether it would burn in its entirety. The next morning the fire was out and the ashes cold. I stirred the ashes and looked for any trace of the bag remains and could find none. I even removed the ashes and sifted through them. Nothing.
I probably have only burned bags a half dozen times in a little less than two months and over 500 miles of hiking the AT. The rest of the time I carried them out. In those half dozen time I always looked to see if there were remains, but never as thoroughly as the first time. I have never found remains.
Carry it out.
When you burn anything of that type - plastic like. It sends off a smell in the smoke.
Bears will equate that smell to food.
Just saying.
theinfamousj
09-25-2017, 15:35
I have never understood the point of a tent in a shelter as opposed to on the ground near the shelter. In the worst of winter weather, the tent on the ground is warmer because the ground is solid whereas the shelter floor has air whirling under it. (the sides of the tent being equal)
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The rule applicable to shelters is that Scouts are not to sleep in a shelter (be it tent, cabin room, or hotel room) with an adult that is not their parent.
At least in the Guide to Safe Scouting, it specifically says tent, not shelter in general, which makes sense. If an adult and unrelated youth were inside of a tent it would be much easier for something to happen since it is more difficult for others to see what is occurring.
In fact, our Troop rented a cabin at a Scout Camp back in April. This cabin was all one big room (semi-divided with a half wall but nothing to completely separate it) and they (the Council) had no issue with the Troop renting it, knowing that there would be both adults and youth staying there (we were only renting the one cabin).
Most of the cabins I've seen in at least a couple other Scout camps are similar setups (one had an enclosed porch that could be a separate room, but in March it worked better as a refrigerator for our food since the heat didn't get out there at all).
Note - this has nothing to do with the use of lean-tos by groups in general - we've only used them in a couple scenarios:
In areas where there was no choice (that is, camping wasn't allowed outside the lean-to) and along the AT where the
lean-tos were the large style (that fit around 20) where we left plenty of space for anyone else who was interested in using them, and/or in off seasons when hiker traffic was far lower (if any at all besides us).
gpburdelljr
09-25-2017, 16:17
I have never been worried about a tent in a shelter when I'm alone or with one or two others.
At the same time when the weather is bad and space is tight It hasn't occurred to me to use a tent in a shelter.
Ok. I still haven't pitched a tent in a shelter but I'm still thinking about it.
Sleep in the shelter, or sleep in a tent, but don't do both at he same time.
ScareBear
09-25-2017, 21:11
We here in the Alps have the habit of the downhill-people giving way to the uphill-goer. Or, in a wider aspect, the ones with the easier task giving way to the one having the more tedious and difficult task.
Similar to the habit of the one approaching a resting group should greet first.
This we dont understand as rules, but as our kind of politeness (if we have any at all).
Well, there is a HUGE difference between hiking in the Tirol and hiking in the Bernese Oberland, politeness/kindness wise, IMHO...that goes for skiing too....just sayin....
And yes, everywhere I have hiked in the Alps, the hiker coming down yields to the hiker coming up. You don't want to kick off a big rock or rock slide onto some poor bugger trying his best to claw his way up...plus, it's good fun to catch your breath whilst watching somebody suffer your prior pain...
perdidochas
09-26-2017, 17:12
At least in the Guide to Safe Scouting, it specifically says tent, not shelter in general, which makes sense. If an adult and unrelated youth were inside of a tent it would be much easier for something to happen since it is more difficult for others to see what is occurring.
In fact, our Troop rented a cabin at a Scout Camp back in April. This cabin was all one big room (semi-divided with a half wall but nothing to completely separate it) and they (the Council) had no issue with the Troop renting it, knowing that there would be both adults and youth staying there (we were only renting the one cabin).
Most of the cabins I've seen in at least a couple other Scout camps are similar setups (one had an enclosed porch that could be a separate room, but in March it worked better as a refrigerator for our food since the heat didn't get out there at all).
Note - this has nothing to do with the use of lean-tos by groups in general - we've only used them in a couple scenarios:
In areas where there was no choice (that is, camping wasn't allowed outside the lean-to) and along the AT where the
lean-tos were the large style (that fit around 20) where we left plenty of space for anyone else who was interested in using them, and/or in off seasons when hiker traffic was far lower (if any at all besides us).
Well, despite what the technicalities say, I'm not going to sleep in a shelter (even at a scout camp) with boy scouts that aren't my sons (unless it's a life or death situation), and I'm not going to let scouts under my supervision sleep in a shelter with adults that aren't their parents. I'd choose a different section to hike rather than be forced to stay in a shelter. You can choose to do differently, of course.
dudeijuststarted
09-27-2017, 13:28
I have set up my bugnet in shelters. The footprint is only 2-3 inches wider than the mattress. I had a guy and his girlfriend complaining about this on one occasion, while laying out a huge gray tarp covering half of the shelter and covering it in their gear and later on, cooking. If I ever do another AT thru, I'm going to do it the same way I did it the first time. Alone and on an alternative itinerary. I go out there to get the hell away from people.
I'm a solo hiker and have found myself in shelters with people who like taking up more than their fair share of space. When hikers roll in late at night looking for a place to crash, nothing pleases me more to loudly invite them in and tell the hogs to move over.
Greenlight
10-29-2017, 20:10
It was absolutely ok to wake them up. And yes, the tools in the shelter-tents should have offered to make room for them.
So you show up at the shelter after dark and sit at the picnic table in front of the shelter while your buddy loudly complains that the shelter is full? Really. It sounds to me like you were the ones lacking etiquette and consideration for others. Did you really think that showing up late and in the rain after dark (9pm is bedtime for many hikers) that it was OK to wake them all up and they would just graciously offer to make room for you?
If its raining and I were using a shelter and it got to be 830 to 845 I'd be thinking "cool, nobody else is coming, I'm going to spread out and use the space available."
You had no right to any space in that shelter, and you ended up doing what you should have: use the shelter you carried with you. Your friend was the jerk for complaining about it and waking everybody else up.
We had just entered the southern part of SNP, so camping spots were limited and we decided to push on after dark into Calf Mountain Shelter, arriving a little after 9:00pm.
But as we walked up, wet and tired, we saw that it was indeed full. Full of tents. Three of them to be exact, one of which was a huge 2-3 person tent. Between the tents and their gear, there was literally no space left. My buddy sat at the picnic table right next to the shelter, exhausted and over it, and let his thoughts be heard, but none of them stirred or stuck their heads out to offer to make room.
I would have thought that not setting up a huge tent in the shelter falls more under the lines of common sense than "hiking etiquette,"
Ok, two fold.
One, coming in after hiker midnight you cannot have an expectation that previous arrivals have taken liberties. Thus, it is appropriate to be respectful in working with your fellow hikers.
Two, tents are not permitted nor do they belong in shelters, we know this. Thus, not just as a regulation but, out of common respect and courtesy, the tent-in-shelter sleepers need to make immediate accommodation for even late arrivals.
Anyone with experience on the trail knows the scenario, it is cold and the wind block from the tent in the shelter is awesome. We also know that it is entirely inappropriate that we dominate that amount of space, thus, must give up that stolen luxury if circumstances change.
The excuse making, individual circumstance justifying, blame gaming is all nonsense. We have the unequalled opportunity to enjoy and share the wilderness experience. Absolute respect for and courtesy to our fellow hiker is the unalterable standard.