View Full Version : Saddened by the fires - Class of 2017 will hike through a battlefield
I have many friends in North Carolina and Georgia fighting the fires. I pray for the safety of my fellow firefighters and thank them for their efforts!
From their reports, and based on what other information I have been able to glean, some big stretches of the trail are getting hit hard by fire. Some landmarks have been damaged or destroyed and the trail experience in the south will be forever changed.
I had the good fortune to hike Yellowstone a few years after the fires of '88, and I witnessed how quickly nature rebuilds. But, for those of us hiking northbound next spring, it's going to be a sobering experience hiking through large areas of freshly burnt forest. :(
Hopefully the sight of large burn areas will make every hiker more vigilant about never leaving a campfire unattended.
Tipi Walter
11-15-2016, 12:48
From their reports, and based on what other information I have been able to glean, some big stretches of the trail are getting hit hard by fire. Some landmarks have been damaged or destroyed and the trail experience in the south will be forever changed.:(
Forever changed? How about changed for the next several years. Forest fires are a natural part of the ecosystem and this is why the forest service has changed their policy of fire suppression to controlled burns. A healthy long term forest must at infrequent times burn. In fact, some tree seeds can't germinate without fire.
In the last 100 years development and sprawl has overtaken the TN and NC and Georgia mountains which means there are a thousand times more houses and human dwellings then "there should be" so when forest fires occur these structures are targets. Add in human ignorance by bringing in the woolly adelgid and the chestnut blight from trade with Japan.
I often think of a natural disaster such as a tornado sweeping across the plains 200 years ago versus today. Back then a big twister could hit where Joplin now stands and few people died and a couple primitive shelters got destroyed. Now? Well, 158 people get killed. We are everywhere. And so when Miss Nature decides to Howl she can't help but hit a clump of us.
DuneElliot
11-15-2016, 12:51
Forever changed? How about changed for the next several years. Forest fires are a natural part of the ecosystem and this is why the forest service has changed their policy of fire suppression to controlled burns. A healthy long term forest must at infrequent times burn. In fact, some tree seeds can't germinate without fire.
In the last 100 years development and sprawl has overtaken the TN and NC and Georgia mountains which means there are a thousand times more houses and human dwellings then "there should be" so when forest fires occur these structures are targets. Add in human ignorance by bringing in the woolly adelgid and the chestnut blight from trade with Japan.
I often think of a natural disaster such as a tornado sweeping across the plains 200 years ago versus today. Back then a big twister could hit where Joplin now stands and few people died and a couple primitive shelters got destroyed. Now? Well, 158 people get killed. We are everywhere. And so when Miss Nature decides to Howl she can't help but hit a clump of us.
This exactly. But this also doesn't give license to idiots to leave campfires burning or be less vigilant either.
Walter and DuneElliot are right on target.
As for what the AT corridor will look like for a decade or 3, how many of you have been to Yellowstone since 1988? Different? Sure. Permanently changed? Not really. In some ways Yellowstone is better.
Be careful of dead standing trees. Have fun.
Wayne
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loguon_theguy
11-15-2016, 13:34
Dang. I was hoping to hike from Springer to Clingmans Dome next summer and hammock camp... Not looking good.
rocketsocks
11-15-2016, 14:08
Not everyone will find the beauty in a waste land.
I would argue that yes, some of the changes will be forever in nature. Many old landmarks have been or will be lost when this fire event is over. As for the renewal of the forest through burning, that is a natural course for the forest. But, as rocketsocks stated, hiking through a freshly burnt forest for days on end will not be the wonderful start to a nobo thru-hike that many have envisioned.
johnnybgood
11-15-2016, 16:29
Forest fires are a natural process that alters a landscape for only a few years. I have witnessed the beginnings of regrowth from the Rocky Mount fire this past Spring in Shenandoah National Park
Many park ecologists agreed that while the fire was preventable, caused by a careless camper ,it is part of natures' renewal process. Ecosystems undergo these events and make full recovery over a short time. Six months after the Shenandoah National Park fire no smell exists that would clue someone to what had been a large wildfire that had occurred in April.
I'm in the Oh, well, that's nature camp. I've hiked through quite a few burned areas, I didn't find them particularly depressing. In fact, if you pay attention and look at the small things, LOTS of new life that is otherwise hidden or non-existent is there to observe and wonder at.
Agree, if this was, indeed, human stupidity caused, the perpetrators should be found and face the consequences, but forever changed? What exactly are you referring to as old landmarks that were destroyed? Historical sights? Which? I'm kinda at a loss as to what you are referring to.
ADVStrom14
11-15-2016, 17:24
Forever changed? How about changed for the next several years. Forest fires are a natural part of the ecosystem and this is why the forest service has changed their policy of fire suppression to controlled burns. A healthy long term forest must at infrequent times burn. In fact, some tree seeds can't germinate without fire.QUOTE]
I have to keep reminding myself of this because you are absolutely right. It is sad that structures are endangered and potentially lost (especially since reports say that a lot of it is arson and not natural) but it's life. And it's rebirth. Nature is amazingly resilient.
[QUOTE=Engine;2104835]I would argue that yes, some of the changes will be forever in nature. Many old landmarks have been or will be lost when this fire event is over. As for the renewal of the forest through burning, that is a natural course for the forest. But, as rocketsocks stated, hiking through a freshly burnt forest for days on end will not be the wonderful start to a nobo thru-hike that many have envisioned.
But that is life. Stuff is not always what we want it to be or what we have romanticized it to be. I am saddened because my very first backpacking trip was to be this December through the NC section of the BMT and has not been postponed because of the fires and the drought. I am not real excited about walking through miles and miles of black forest in the spring but in everything there is beauty...if you look. I dare say that by the time those Nobo thru-hikers get started in the spring after the fires, there will be green poking through the black and you'll see new life everywhere.
H I T C H
11-15-2016, 17:57
I heard on the news this morning that some of the fires were "intentionally set". I don't know if this means campfires that were not properly attended, or if it means that they have reason to suspect arson.
soumodeler
11-15-2016, 18:16
I was in Hot Springs in late April this year and saw the mountains on fire north of town. I hiked that section in mid October and was amazed at how fast the evidence of the fire had disappeared. You could definitely tell it had burned, but it was actually not that bad.
Rex Clifton
11-15-2016, 18:22
I hiked through some of the fire zones in Yellowstone after the devastating fires in the late eighties. It was pretty surreal.
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I heard on the news this morning that some of the fires were "intentionally set". I don't know if this means campfires that were not properly attended, or if it means that they have reason to suspect arson.
Suspected arson. There are several articles in the news stating this.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia-north-carolina-tennessee-masks-suspected-arsons-dozens-of-wildfires/
Then there's this wannabe weatherman who was caught setting fires!
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/dry-windy-conditions-feed-wildfires-southeast-43460525
Sarcasm the elf
11-15-2016, 18:43
I heard on the news this morning that some of the fires were "intentionally set". I don't know if this means campfires that were not properly attended, or if it means that they have reason to suspect arson.
There have been at least three arson arrests.
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/33688537/arrest-made-in-tennessee-wildfires
http://www.chattanoogan.com/2016/11/15/336157/Two-More-Arsonists-Arrested-As-Reward.aspx
From the second article about TN:
This year to date, about 1,238 wildfires have burned across the state. Almost 50 percent of those are suspected arson.
Old Hiker
11-15-2016, 19:26
Even if it's arson, fire is part of the wild.
On the rollercoaster - NO VA - a smallish fire on top of a mountain a few months earlier opened up a NICE camp spot in the midst of all the poison ivy for myself and two section hikers.
Fireplug
11-15-2016, 19:33
Three of the fire here are Arson. They caught the guy who started them. It wasn't careless hikers
At this point I'm more concerned about the SOBO class of 2016 than 2017 NOBOs. A majority of those SOBOs who would have finished the trail under normal circumstances will not be able to this year -- only those finishing by the first week of November will be making it through by the looks of it. I feel a lot of empathy for those folks.
Though maybe I should have posted this in the 2016 thru-hiker forum rather than the 2017 forum:rolleyes:. I genuinely hope you folks in the class of 2017 have no trail closures to deal with by the time you start.
The extent of the damage has not yet been assessed.
Chill Y'all. Nothing in nature is forever. Nature is incredibly resilient.
Wayne
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Bowzman7
11-15-2016, 21:41
What effect will it have on water sources i wonder
Saw a summary of the fires and some of the trail closures are:
the AT closed from the Nantahala River at Wesser south to Rock Gap Trailhead on Forest Road 67
Wesser Creek Trail
Benton MacKaye Trail east of Beech Gap
Chunky Gal trail from Glade Gap to Tusquitee gap
Portions of the foothills trail and whitewater falls trail.
Joyce Kilmer Slickrock Wilderness
said to call US Forest Service at 828-257-4200 for more information
Tipi's perspective reminds me of the dynamic planet we live. The nature of NATURE is that it is dynamic. And, that although man's behavior can change the face of the landscape, and should be ethically and ecologically considered in how it does that, there are far larger cataclysmic forces at work. Man is just part of a far larger interconnected whole. Yet much of humanity has the world view that it is apart and above the rest of the natural environment. It is human centricity and hubris that fails to recognize this and results in human behavior that has vast consequences to not only itself but sometimes the whole.
Hiking experiences in Hawaii where the hike goes through vast dynamic recently active lava fields in Hawaii's Volcano NP where isolated islands of native forest and wildlife exist called kipukas are surrounded by stark lava reminds me just how dynamic life and Nature is. And, yet even in the stark seemingly initially barren seemingly destroyed lava fields ferns, ohia lehua, guava, and native grasses that have learned to adapt and evolve are visible. It reminds me that once the entire Hawaiian Island chain rose out of the sea in lava once barren of life. Life found a way.
And, the Polynesians found a life - created a good life - when they sought to cooperate with Nature as first impulse rather than view themselves isolated from it.
Forever changed? How about changed for the next several years. Forest fires are a natural part of the ecosystem and this is why the forest service has changed their policy of fire suppression to controlled burns. A healthy long term forest must at infrequent times burn. In fact, some tree seeds can't germinate without fire.
In the last 100 years development and sprawl has overtaken the TN and NC and Georgia mountains which means there are a thousand times more houses and human dwellings then "there should be" so when forest fires occur these structures are targets. Add in human ignorance by bringing in the woolly adelgid and the chestnut blight from trade with Japan.
I often think of a natural disaster such as a tornado sweeping across the plains 200 years ago versus today. Back then a big twister could hit where Joplin now stands and few people died and a couple primitive shelters got destroyed. Now? Well, 158 people get killed. We are everywhere. And so when Miss Nature decides to Howl she can't help but hit a clump of us.
Your wider perspective reminds of varying accounts of The Dust Bowl. Most accounts are from a human centric perspective which ignore the role of human ignorance and misguided Abrahamic world view human behavior - a failure to recognize a larger ecology where the environment includes humanity acting together as an interconnected larger web of life.
When man believes he is apart and above the rest of Nature and the environment, not recognizing ecology as an interconnect whole, it results in perspective's that blame the cause of the Dust Bowl experience on something other than man's hubris and that human centric world view.
Historically Native Americans generally had a world view where they adapted to changes of Nature flowing with it rather than fighting it or seeing themselves apart from it. They lived interconnected to and cooperating with Nature perceiving themselves as but one strand in a larger interconnected web of life - a larger ecology.
Settlers with a human centric Abrahamic Manifest Destiny perspective failed to take into account strong winds, periods of drought, dust storms, periodic wildfires, shallow soils, and how and why native plants had adapted were a natural part of the way of life and things on the Great Plains. Humans brought the experiences of the Dust Bowl largely on themselves because they ignored the larger interconnected whole and the way of things that occur naturally on the Great Plains as it had occurred for 1000's of years previously. Whereas Native Americans adapted their ways of life quite successfully to living in the Great Plains in greater cooperation with and regard for Nature.
“Conservation is getting nowhere because it is incompatible with our Abrahamic concept of land. We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.”
― Aldo Leopold (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43828.Aldo_Leopold)
“The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant, "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.”
― Aldo Leopold (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43828.Aldo_Leopold), Round River: From the Journals of Aldo Leopold (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/713244)
Thanks to Tipi, Dogwood, Venchka, and everyone for a viewpoint that speaks to the larger and more important picture. As I typed the OP, I was wrapped in a bit of self-pity, since my long dreamed of AT thru-hike experience was going to be somehow "tarnished". I needed to take a step back and reflect on things from 30,000' up.
Water Rat
11-16-2016, 09:53
Yes, the thought of the AT being tarnished does suck. However, the opportunity to hike the trail is still there. :)
The trail going through the fire area does not amount to a lot when you look at the trail in its entirety. It will most likely make you even more grateful for the trail sections that have not been burned. Many gripe about no views, but you might actually be able to see more because the fire has opened things up. The fire will allow you to see things many have not had the opportunity to see on their hike.
Starchild
11-16-2016, 10:06
Yes fire is a natural process, but is the drought natural or caused by human influenced climate change? Is such a large scale burning natural, or are they going to hike thru a human caused event. Some people go hiking to get away from the influence of mankind.
But there is a rub there as the forest is already greatly altered by humans, it is not original growth patterns but a much more immature forest as most has been cut down at some point.
It's a sobering thought if one had to walk thru miles of the burnt down forest, even camp in it. Perhaps not what one expected, but it is the trail who is the teacher, the hiker is only a student.
The man made influence on the landscape predates recorded history.
Arson is abhorrent. Natural fires have existed since forever.
Go to CalTopo.com. Find South Fork, Colorado. Turn on the fire history overlay. Zoom out and look at the 2012 & 2013 fires. Scroll along the Continental Divide.
There might be some new views opening in the green tunnel. Perhaps a new bald to enjoy.
Wayne
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Starchild
11-16-2016, 11:18
The man made influence on the landscape predates recorded history.
Arson is abhorrent. Natural fires have existed since forever.
Go to CalTopo.com. Find South Fork, Colorado. Turn on the fire history overlay. Zoom out and look at the 2012 & 2013 fires. Scroll along the Continental Divide.
There might be some new views opening in the green tunnel. Perhaps a new bald to enjoy.
Wayne
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Notseeignthatoverlay,
Not seeing that overlay, and would be more interested in the southern appalachians, other places have different burn cycles. Would love to see the overlay of the Gunks in NY, that area burns completely like every 20 years (in smaller large segments)
Tally_Hiker
11-16-2016, 11:45
I just hiked the Three Forks to Neels Gap section this past weekend, and was stunned to find the hot remains of a fire at a trailside campsite. The fact that someone would use a fire within view of smoke is unbelievable.
Yes, the thought of the AT being tarnished does suck. However, the opportunity to hike the trail is still there. :)
The trail going through the fire area does not amount to a lot when you look at the trail in its entirety. It will most likely make you even more grateful for the trail sections that have not been burned. Many gripe about no views, but you might actually be able to see more because the fire has opened things up. The fire will allow you to see things many have not had the opportunity to see on their hike.
The Appalachian Trail, AT enthusiasts, and ideal that is the AT, no matter how that ideal is defined, is just part of the larger interconnected web that is dynamic. It is not apart and set above the rest of the web. It will change by way of man's behavior, Nature, and time. It may even cease to exist in the physical altogether at some stage.
I too enjoyed the perspective of the second paragraph. The fire adds an element of diversity and perhaps appreciation for a larger AT experience.
Saying the AT is tarnished predisposes the AT and all that it represents, and can represent, is static to an ideal state.
The AT, just as humanity, is not insulated, no matter if we desire otherwise, from fires(man made, accidental or not, and 'naturally' caused), historically significant fire towers being erased, ice storms, droughts, tornados, solar flares, erosion, exponentially increasing human population straining the AT corridor, termini or its path being relocated, whitetail deer population explosions, elk being reintroduced, global climate changes, vagarities in regional weather patterns, confrontations of all manner, or aliens landing in Damascus Virginia to take away Lone Wolf. ;)
A worthy aspect of an AT experience can be in recognizing how these experiences can change, are ever changing, just as the AT is ever changing, and is inextricably interconnected to a larger dynamic ecology.
The temporal AT is no different in that it will change just as the other great physical man made wonders and cultures and experiences associated with them have changed - the Great Wall of China, Machu Picchu, Colosseum in Rome, the pyramids at Giza or Teotihuacan or Angor Wat
Notseeignthatoverlay,
Not seeing that overlay, and would be more interested in the southern appalachians, other places have different burn cycles. Would love to see the overlay of the Gunks in NY, that area burns completely like every 20 years (in smaller large segments)
Tab in upper right corner of the screen. Click it and a menu drops down. Fire History is there, about half way down the menu.
Other places also have much greater burn areas. The actual AT occupies an extremely narrow corridor. The actual burn areas may not be near the trail. Too soon to know for sure.
Wayne
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I just hiked the Three Forks to Neels Gap section this past weekend, and was stunned to find the hot remains of a fire at a trailside campsite. The fact that someone would use a fire within view of smoke is unbelievable.
"You can't fix stupid."
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Puddlefish
11-16-2016, 15:42
My spring hike followed in the path of a string of fires. There was even a bit of conjecture on the trail that someone was setting them intentionally. The more I hiked, the more I saw horrible fire safety practices.
Campfires unattended, not one single fire properly extinguished at the end of the night, numerous people tossing a branch in a fire and immediately heading off to sleep secure in the knowledge that someone else would watch it burn down, a trail runner feeding a large fire on a very windy night in dry conditions, long branches up to twenty feet of length with one end left lying in the fire, one fire in the middle of a field with no ring of stone or cleared area.
Nothing we say here will make a difference. Stubborn people are going to do what stubborn people do. The old "I've been leaving smoldering piles of coals overnight for 30 years and I've never started a fire" crowd. It's easier to just blame some imagined arsonist than to realize that your own fire safety practices are non existent in practice.
purdaddy
11-17-2016, 21:03
Wildfires are natural, just hope nobody is hurt. I've hiked through plenty of burnt out areas, especially the Jersey Pine Barrens. It's always a cool surreal experience and nature bounces back pretty quickly. It'll be a nice change for those of us starting early, instead of a sea of brown we'll change it up with some black!
Five Tango
11-18-2016, 16:51
When I had a temporary job once with the Georgia Forestry Commission I learned that fires are often caused by lightning,arsonists,careless idiots,and the ignorant types who do not know that you should never have a fire when the relative humidity is less than 40%.
Generally speaking,every winter there is quite a bit of controlled burns taking place in the state.These are usually fairly well contained because they are set by professionals who know how to burn "under the wind."What we have now is run away wild fire and it can be scary......
GriZZiLLa_Ga-Me09
11-27-2016, 20:45
I'm not saddened. It's natural and will add to the adventure.
"Out of the Southern Burntlands we arose. It was our tutelage, and out of it we rose stronger than ever!"
Oventoasted
11-27-2016, 20:55
I dont mind walking through burnt forest. I just want to know if ill be able to walk through the areas or will i need to yellowblaze it around the closed areas next year.
I hope nobody is hurt by blowdowns.
I'm most amazed by the stupidity of people building fires in an area without sufficient water for proper extinguishing. That is a flogging offense.
Wayne
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Tipi Walter
11-27-2016, 22:01
I dont mind walking through burnt forest. I just want to know if ill be able to walk through the areas or will i need to yellowblaze it around the closed areas next year.
Closed areas will reopen. It's one thing to walk thru a burnt forest, it's another to set up camp in the stinking ashes even after they're long out.
Closed areas will reopen. It's one thing to walk thru a burnt forest, it's another to set up camp in the stinking ashes even after they're long out.
Not to mention the erosion that will happen with the Spring rain and Winter runoff.
Ashes and erosion are inconvenient and annoying. A dead standing tree falling on you as you hike past it will ruin your whole day.
Wayne
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pilgrimskywheel
11-28-2016, 01:14
Change remains the only constant. Adapt, or cry. The trail won't have been reduced to a Terminator "wasteland" - it'll be fine. Firebuggery has been a problem in that area for some time. The big old barn out Behind Standing Bear was torched in '12' or '13'. I think the really sad part is that they are running out of the antique barns which used to define the landscape of a time gone by down there, and truly they are lost forever. 200 year old barns NEVER grow back.
...200 year old barns NEVER grow back.
...and that's the point I was trying to make in the OP. Much of what will be lost, like old fire towers, cannot be replaced for future hikers to appreciate. I think we all understand the need for fire to cleanse the forest on occasion, it's the natural way of things. But, when we go too long without fire, the fuel load gets too large and small fires turn into conflagrations which decimate the forest instead of just clearing out the lower growth.
This isn't usually as big a problem in the west as fire is almost a seasonal occurrence there. In the southern Appalachians, fire is less frequent and when you couple large amounts of fuel with a significant drought, it becomes very difficult to get ahead of...
"The fact that someone would use a fire within view of smoke is unbelievable." Why would that be wrong?
YoungBloodOnTrail
11-28-2016, 21:39
It is very sad. The PCT had the same problem this year, I feel for the hikers behind who will have to deal with even more burn areas than there already are. Hopefully it will serve as a reminder that fire is no joke, even though most of the fires aren't started by thru hikers we all need that reminder sometimes.
On a positive note it's all part of the natural cycle, beauty will one day emerge from the burn.
maybe those fires will help get rid of some of the invasive species that have already decimated the southern Appalachian forests, like the hemlock and balsam wooly adelgid, among many others. Seems that the stronger trees will be more likely to survive fires, and the weaker trees will burn off.
healthy long term for the forest
Oventoasted
11-29-2016, 02:18
Starting to look like hammocking was a poor choice, haha!
Starting to look like hammocking was a poor choice, haha!
Oh wow :D thats funny
Being out west I don't know the land well enough to understand where and what. It would take me hours to map it all out. I know someone has the skinny on all this. Roughly what are us 17 nobo's looking at? Will there be parts of miles and miles that is burnt, few miles here and there???
Oventoasted
11-30-2016, 04:05
Being out west I don't know the land well enough to understand where and what. It would take me hours to map it all out. I know someone has the skinny on all this. Roughly what are us 17 nobo's looking at? Will there be parts of miles and miles that is burnt, few miles here and there???
From the ATC (https://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/trail-updates) site its looking like good chunks of the trail are getting hit.
From just doing some math from the reports it is hundreds of miles now.
From the ATC (https://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/trail-updates) site its looking like good chunks of the trail are getting hit.
From just doing some math from the reports it is hundreds of miles now.
Well sheit. I'm having a hard time grasping this. I understand what it does on the PCT but not that area. Only time I have been out that way to hike was in GSMNP. I just can't picture that type of growth fried. You can look at pictures all day long but when you see it in person you really get it.
Active fires for the southern 300 miles or so, as of 11/30. The stretch from around the GA/NC line up to Wesser looks bad.
37228
Ladytrekker
11-30-2016, 09:13
Any reports on shelter damages. On ATC says GA, NC, and TN trail sections are closed. Praying all hikers that may have been on trail are safe and counted for.
Any reports on shelter damages. On ATC says GA, NC, and TN trail sections are closed. Praying all hikers that may have been on trail are safe and counted for.I feel really bad for all the SOBOs that have been holed up in Hot Springs, be a hard decision to make on how to proceed.