Rain Jacket vs Wind shirt

[orthofingers]

I've been using a Frogg Toggs jacket on my weekend, week long, and ten day hikes. On the positive side, it's light, breathable, cheap, somewhat dorky looking and easily repairable with a piece of tape. On the negative side, it's not that durable but cheap and easily repairable kind of make up for that.

I'm planning an AT NOBO thru for spring '17 and was interested in adding a wind shirt (specifically the Patagonia Houdini) for a lot of versatility at only a few ounces. In speaking to a friend of mine, he suggested the Montbell Versalite would do everything the Houdini does with the addition of pockets, pit zips, and better adjusting hood and cuffs AND that it would work as my rain jacket so I could leave the Frogg Toggs jacket out. I believe the Versalite is 4 ounces heavier than the Houdini and $50 more but if I could ditch the Frogg Toggs, the weight factor would be a wash and the less volume and one-less-thing-to-bring factors would be a positive.

So, here is my question: Is the Versalite a real rain jacket? Montbell describes it as having a DWR finish but some reports I've read describe it as being waterproof. Any real world opinions on its usefulness on a thruhike walking three days straight in rain.

[Just Bill]

2.5-layer Super Hydro Breeze® (http://www.montbell.us/about/technical-info/materials/super-hydro-breeze/) technology
(Water resistance : 20,000 mm / Breathability : 15,000 g/m²/ 24 hrs)
15-denier Ballistic Airlight (http://www.montbell.us/about/technical-info/materials/ballistic-airlight/) rip-stop nylon

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?p_id=2328276

That is the material listed as the shell of the versalite.
WPB material is definitely a rain jacket.

I agree with your friend... looks like a good SUL raincoat.
Compares more equally with http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-alpine-houdini-jacket/85190.html

I got the alpine Houdini for my wife and prefer Patagonia over Montbell generally... but otherwise look like good apples to apples SUL WPB shells.
You'd need to treat it halfway kind... but it should make it through a thru.

[Deadeye]

Frogg Toggs are $20 at Walmart and they work as well as anything I've tried. I can't think of any reason to spend more. Personally, I'd keep my Toggs, and get a superlight windshirt like the Pertex shirt that I have, 3 ounces, but only if I could get it cheap.

[capehiker]

There isn't a jacket out there that will keep person dry after 3 days of rain :)

I lost sleep over the very same dilemma you are having. The Versalite is great for an hour long run in the rain, not so good for 8 hours of continuous downpour.

I ended up going with the Houdini combined with the Sea to Summit UL poncho/tarp. I used the Houdini a lot and the poncho also doubled as my pack cover. I even rigged up as a sun shade a few times.

[saltysack]

I've been very happy layering Houdini over a synthetic T with a true rain shell over top...i.e. OR Helium 2. These layers are part of my warmth for winter hikes as well....really like the Houdini....montbell makes great stuff so can't go wrong either way..


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[nsherry61]

. . . the Houdini combined with the Sea to Summit UL poncho/tarp. . .
Exactly!

A WPB piece is not nearly as breathable as a DWR wind jacket/shirt.

My wind shirt is consistently one of the most versatile pieces of gear I carry.

I rarely use my WPB jackets (except for extreme mountaineering) because they are heavier than my wind shirt, don't cover my gear as well as my poncho, don't vent as well as my poncho, don't work as a tarp as well as my poncho. The wind shirt takes care of the 98% of the time I'm on the trail needing a little wind and or drizzle protection without getting overheated and/or wet from internal condensation (yes, even with high end WPB). The poncho keeps my gear dry and me adequately dry in heavier rains. . . again, without overheating or getting wet from internal condensation.

And, my wind shirt plus S2S UL poncho/tarp combined weigh the same or less than most of my WPB pieces.

In the end, play with what you have over the winter and see what you can get away with in various conditions and then see what you really like (not necessarily the same thing of course).

[Dogwood]

I have both the Pat Houdini Jacket and MontBell Versatile. I just bought a new Versatile after wearing the first out. I find it superior in every way I can imagine in comparison to the Marmot Mica(not the Super) I was using in the same category of rain jackets. The only possible very slight improvement I can find I'd do in the Versatile design is use small mesh breathe through inner pockets that can be used for additional venting when the hand pocket zips are opened.

Absolutely agree with your friend. Everything he said agrees with my assessment. The Versalite is not a wind shirt. It is a true rain jacket with greater features than the Houdini, all features I find that are worthy for the wt and functionality of a rain jacket. Look at the specks.

The Houdini is a wind shirt with a DWR making it non WP but modestly water repellent when the DWR is functiioning new as it should. I do not wear the Houdini expecting it to be a rain jacket. I think it's a failure to think of the Houdini as such.

I just carried both the Houdini Jacket wind shirt and the MB Versatile on a thru of the Oregon Coast, Redwoods NP hikes, and several other hikes in Oregon. I liked the combination. I think the layering combo and employing each piece separately creates a lot of versatility and functionality which applies to AT hiking as well.

Besides the lower $ cost at purchase and possible other positive attributes you mentioned, although I'd debate characterizing the Frogg Toggs as light wt and breathable, I'd say the MB Versatile soundly beats the performance and functionality of Frogg Togg rain wear.

[Dogwood]

if you got the bucks and depending on your priorities other combinations I like playing with involve the MB Tachyon wind jacket/shirt, MB Versalite rain jacket, Patagonia Houdini wind jacket, and Zpacks Challenger rain jacket.

[FreeGoldRush]

if you got the bucks and depending on your priorities other combinations I like playing with involve the MB Tachyon wind jacket/shirt, MB Versalite rain jacket, Patagonia Houdini wind jacket, and Zpacks Challenger rain jacket.

In my limited experience I have used a plastic poncho from Busch Gardens. It's heavy and miserable. So I upgraded to a Zpacks Challenger. It's light weight and with nothing but drought here in the southeast it has only been carried and not worn.

Can someone give their first hand experience with the Zpacks Challenger or something similarly high end?

[deadbox]

A wind shirt is not a rain jacket and vice versa. Do yourself a favor and keep your frog togs for rain and bring a wind shirt for warmth.

[-Rush-]

I've been very happy layering Houdini over a synthetic T with a true rain shell over top...i.e. OR Helium 2. These layers are part of my warmth for winter hikes as well....really like the Houdini....montbell makes great stuff so can't go wrong either way..


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I love the Houdini. One of my favorite pieces of gear. 99% of the time it's all I need over a shirt.

[Secondmouse]

There isn't a jacket out there that will keep person dry after 3 days of rain :)

I lost sleep over the very same dilemma you are having. The Versalite is great for an hour long run in the rain, not so good for 8 hours of continuous downpour.

I ended up going with the Houdini combined with the Sea to Summit UL poncho/tarp. I used the Houdini a lot and the poncho also doubled as my pack cover. I even rigged up as a sun shade a few times.

this is what I go with. wind shirt for wind and poncho for rain. of course a poncho is not good for windy conditions but I like it better than a jacket for warm weather.

I'm a hammock sleeper so the poncho is good for draping over the end of the hammock when wind comes from that direction...

[Dogwood]

There isn't a jacket out there that will keep person dry after 3 days of rain :)

I lost sleep over the very same dilemma you are having. The Versalite is great for an hour long run in the rain, not so good for 8 hours of continuous downpour.

I ended up going with the Houdini combined with the Sea to Summit UL poncho/tarp. I used the Houdini a lot and the poncho also doubled as my pack cover. I even rigged up as a sun shade a few times.


If one is expecting a rain jacket all on it's own to keep them bone dry in 8 hr continuous hrs of heavy driving rain that might be a problem although that seems to be the common mindset to addressing rain on the AT/east coast.

First, I like your 2 layering combination approach to address rain. It has its merits. You're really having that poncho multitasking for rain, as pack cover, and minimalist sized tarp. I hand it to you if you can effectively make the poncho work satisfactorily for you when setting it up as shelter in heavy downpours without having your pack, you, and/or poncho shelter get soaked. But comparing the MB Versalite Rain Jacket, which for argument's sake and to reduce complexity, is a single layer approach, which RARELY EVER HAPPENS IN THE FIELD WHEN IT'S RAINING(how often do people wear just a rain jacket on their torso to address heavy rain?, maybe during torrential summertime downpours?), is not an apples to apples comparison to a two layer approach of using a Patagonia Houdini and Sea to Summit Poncho simultaneously. If you want a fair comparison I could just as easily have used a two layer approach to addressing heavy rain by layering a Patagonia Houdini under a Montbell Versalite which is what I have been known to do. I've worked like combinations quite satisfactorily in heavy rain during shoulder seasons and early summer conditions when it hasn't yet become a hot humid east coast summertime sweatfest to keep my torso dry by substituting a Montbell Tachyon under the MB Versalite or using the MB Tachyon under a ZP Challenger fully WP Rain Jacket version. For these two layer approaches to work using these four pieces for heavy rain the wind jacket's DWRs have to be functioning well, ALL the layering pieces have to not be overly loose or overly tight fitting, I have to be adept at thermoregulating my body temps, and the venting features of each piece need to be appropriately utilized on some occasions.

I choose these layering combos because all the pieces are very UL, making the 2 piece layering combos very UL, very breathable, the marketing lives up to the claims, and offer oodles of features and options, and most of all, tons of versatility at a wt penalty that I'm often willing to take for the trade off in benefits. If I do a Tachyon under my Challenger(various versions) I have a two layer approach in my XL size that is about 8.4 oz total with great component versatility, above avg rain protection, excellent compressibility, etc. With the Houdini I add about an ounce. The heaviest combo is the Houdini and Versalite that comes in at a whopping leg wobbling 10.6 oz in my XL size. And, to put things into perspective, when I say wt penalty I'm using the term as a ULer/SULer.

Compare the single layer approach to rain that is common that weighs more, may have questionable breathability, and has diminished versatility.

HYOH

[capehiker]

Dogwood-

I never once said in my above post that I use the poncho as a tarp when it rains. I said I set it up as a shade from the sun. You know, like when you stop to take a break and it's really sunny so you quick throw it up between two trees to give you a little rest from the direct sunlight. I have a dedicated tent that I use in the rain.

I offered up an alternative to what the original poster was asking about. I noticed that your experiences are different than mine with the VersaLight. That's cool. I also notice that when members post an experience that is opposite of yours, it's almost as if you feel it's a personal attack on you.

I stand by my statement. The VersaLight cannot withstand three days straight of rain which is exactly what the original poster had asked. It is also not as effective as a wind shirt. Ergo, I merely stated what works for me.

[Dogwood]

In my limited experience I have used a plastic poncho from Busch Gardens. It's heavy and miserable. So I upgraded to a Zpacks Challenger. It's light weight and with nothing but drought here in the southeast it has only been carried and not worn.

Can someone give their first hand experience with the Zpacks Challenger or something similarly high end?

I think I know the poncho you are referring to. I used to live in Tampa and my roommate worked at Busch Gardens. Those ponchos are cheap and low performing. Plus you were in Tampa where it's hot and humid a good portion of the yr and when the rain comes down it can be torrential.

I like the ZP challenger version I have with no pit zips, reg torso length, quite breathable(REALLY!, stats are ridiculous for vapor transfer), UL wt, and water proof. Mine is a hybrid eVent non bunny suit dk blue/almost black version. One thing I appreciate is the sufficient sleeve length for my knuckle dragging Orangutan length arms. At least one version wasn't very WP without taped seams. Mine has bonded seams. I wish there was a two hand pocket option since I sometime prefer hand pockets on rain jackets that I will wear in cooler temps. There are various versions floating around and various reviews discussing but only one version. I say all that so when gathering reviews make sure the reviewer tells you what version jacket and with what optional features they are discussing. Best reviews of the ZP Challenger that I got the most from are from John Abela. He's a bit of a ZP fan to say the least with his SUL philosophy. He's a good guy and since he hikes often in rainy areas on the west coast and has used various versions so can make comparisons he's worth hearing out.

https://hikelighter.com/2014/10/03/zpacks-rain-jacket-challenger-version/

[ctp631]

I pretty much do what you do capehiker. I wear a Wild Things Windshirt 1.0 on top of fleece, or something with a brushed inner liner, depending on how cold it is. For my legs I wear the "discount dance pants" that Mags likes. If it is a heavy, long duration rain, I use a DriDucks poncho. 95% of the time all I need is the windshirt, while I'm active, in the rain.

[Dogwood]

Cape hiker don't feel slighted. Nobody ignored, discounted, or disagreed with your layering approach. I was making the case for considering optional approaches as you were. There's no contest here for public opinion. Valid recognition for your approach was voiced as having valid merits. I didn't reply feeling as if anyone attacked me or the way I do things. I'm way cool with works for you. If adding to the conversation threatens you or makes you offended or raises some questions perhaps you might re-evaluate or clarify rather than condemn and attempt to insult.

I so very much appreciate and look forward to expanding alternatives but I do sometimes confront by requiring support for conclusions and opinions. Don't confuse that with being intended as a personal attack.

You said you would stand by your statement, "the VersaLight cannot withstand three days straight of rain." Very well. On what basis are you relying to state it can not? I know the Versalite went through some changes/versions so perhaps you can provide what yrs Versalite you are basing that conclusion and quantify your personal experiences with the jacket? Where I will disagree with you based on more than three yrs personal in the field experience and observation using the MB Versalite during all four season during intense periods of rain from Georgia to Vermont to Minnesota to California to Oregon to Hawaii is that the Montbell Versalite absolutely can withstand three days of rain without wetting out.

My only other contention was that when making rain apparel layering choices I ask that you compare a two layer approach to a two layer approach and a one layer to one layer approach.

I'm asking, are you saying your poncho always keeps you bone dry after three days straight rain? Perhaps, not?; that is why your are adding a second protective shell layer in the DWRed Patagonia Houdini? Well, that could be done with the Montbell Versalite to address rain. See the problem I have in your analysis? It's not an apples to apples one layer compared to one layer or two layer compared to two layer approach comparison.

[Dogwood]

"I never once said in my above post that I use the poncho as a tarp when it rains. I said I set it up as a shade from the sun. You know, like when you stop to take a break and it's really sunny so you quick throw it up between two trees to give you a little rest from the direct sunlight. I have a dedicated tent that I use in the rain."

No need to attempt to insult. I know what you said because I carefully read your post and considered what you said several times.

I was intending for you to share how you use the poncho because ponchos are often multi functional which you even alluded and thought it might add to the discussion of multi use of gear and apparel layering which was related to teh original post topic. I was anticipating being enlightened. It wasn't a condemnation of your approaches. I was actually congratulating you on figuring situations out in a downpour should you have used a poncho for rain wear, pack cover, and shelter in my mind simultaneously while addressing staying dry.

[freys]

After reading this I decided I should take me a look at one of dem dare houdini wind thing a majigs. My bestest finest smarts all working at the same time said to get one. Fits very nice over my puffy if I need to go that far into getting warm to keep it dry under my precip jacket. For 3 oz and so many uses it just make sense.

[saltysack]

After reading this I decided I should take me a look at one of dem dare houdini wind thing a majigs. My bestest finest smarts all working at the same time said to get one. Fits very nice over my puffy if I need to go that far into getting warm to keep it dry under my precip jacket. For 3 oz and so many uses it just make sense.

I find my Houdini works better under my puffy as it compresses the down when worn on outside....I only wear puffy at camp or as outer layer if its not raining...the Houdini seem to run lil small as my xl isn't baggy but more of an athletic cut like my montbell UL down parka.....just my $.02....


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[MtDoraDave]

I must learn more about these "wind shirts". Last week, hiking on a ridge in Virginia, it was about 32 degrees and I was fine just wearing a long sleeve base layer top... until the wind started. And it was blowing 20 to 25 mph. I put on my frog togg jacket, and was fine.

So if someone can tell me why I need to carry two pieces of equipment when one seems to multitask, I'd truly appreciate it. Not being sarcastic.

[kevperro]

You need to try it for yourself. I was with you for a LONG time. I was not going to buy another piece of gear when one would do.

I've been converted. I started with a cheap wind breaker from Walmart that I used until it was not longer usable (12 ounces too!). My rain gear never came out of the pack. I sprung for a Marmot Train Wind Hoody next and that is my go-to piece for warmth when hiking. You can get away with the cheap and light Frog Toggs because they mainly get relegated to camp wear and guess what.... they are dry when you need them in camp. ;-)

[Dogwood]

Using a wind shirt as your go to piece for "warmth" requires a narrow set of conditions to be effective.

A rain jacket can be employed for times other than when it's raining. Relegating a rain jacket to being used only when it's raining makes it dead wt most often on a long AT hike. By employing it more often effectively for other uses makes tit less often to be dead wt which makes rain wear multi use and potentially worth rethinking.

[MtDoraDave]

The thought that occurred to me as I was hiking was that a pair or "arm chaps" would be good. My core didn't get cold, my back was already a little damp from the pack being on it... if there was really lightweight fabric shirt with windproof sleeves and perhaps a semi turtle neck... but now we're really talking about a specialty piece of gear, who would buy that?

...the things you think about while hiking alone. (at one point I was singing the schoolyard version of popeye the sailor man, but inserting some Metallica lyrics, like this: He's popeye the sailor man, he lives in a garbage can, crushing all deceivers, mashing non-believers, he's popeye the sailor man! )

[kevperro]

Using a wind shirt as your go to piece for "warmth" requires a narrow set of conditions to be effective.

A rain jacket can be employed for times other than when it's raining. Relegating a rain jacket to being used only when it's raining makes it dead wt most often on a long AT hike. By employing it more often effectively for other uses makes tit less often to be dead wt which makes rain wear multi use and potentially worth rethinking.

I exert enough while hiking to keep me warm. If it is raining and cold though I need just a little help at times and rain jackets are TOO warm. That is when I use it and if it is soaking wet it doesn't matter. I'm out west now too...in the Cascades so the range of conditions vary significantly with altitude and exposure on ridges/peaks. Most of my winter trail hiking is down low though so I deal with wet weather mixed with snow. I don't stay up in the snow because our high altitude winter has too much avalanche risk for me going solo and I'm not much of a mountaineer. I'll poke up into heavy snow (Cascade crud) around here but if it requires snowshoes or technical crampons, I turn around. If I need anything more than microspikes I'm headed down the mountain.

[kevperro]

The thought that occurred to me as I was hiking was that a pair or "arm chaps" would be good. My core didn't get cold, my back was already a little damp from the pack being on it... if there was really lightweight fabric shirt with windproof sleeves and perhaps a semi turtle neck... but now we're really talking about a specialty piece of gear, who would buy that?

)

A hybrid mesh system would work. For me even the Marmot wind jacket is too warm most of the time. I'd expand the amount of mesh on it a little but it is all a tradeoff. If you make it too breathable it isn't as useful in really whipping wind and if you make it comfortable at the extreme it is too hot for climbing.

I don't worry about weight as much as most people around here. I worry first about function. A piece of crap that doesn't work is really wasted weight and to be honest if something is 3-4 ounces heavier but useful I consider that a great tradeoff.

[saltysack]

It's all about the layers....wind jackets tend to breathe better....I felt the same way as you last year before trying the combo. I find the wind jacket is the perfect fit....normally i have to keep venting a rain jacket on climbs etc or I'll sweat but don't have this problem in a wind jacket...if your still cold simply add your rain jacket over the wind jacket. This combo works great in winter as I always try to avoid using my down jacket while hiking...try it you will like it!


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[saltysack]

The thought that occurred to me as I was hiking was that a pair or "arm chaps" would be good. My core didn't get cold, my back was already a little damp from the pack being on it... if there was really lightweight fabric shirt with windproof sleeves and perhaps a semi turtle neck... but now we're really talking about a specialty piece of gear, who would buy that?

...the things you think about while hiking alone. (at one point I was singing the schoolyard version of popeye the sailor man, but inserting some Metallica lyrics, like this: He's popeye the sailor man, he lives in a garbage can, crushing all deceivers, mashing non-believers, he's popeye the sailor man! )

My Houdini is my favorite Florida winter jacket!


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[Sandy of PA]

[QUOTE=MtDoraDave;2107063]The thought that occurred to me as I was hiking was that a pair or "arm chaps" would be good. My core didn't get cold, my back was already a little damp from the pack being on it... if there was really lightweight fabric shirt with windproof sleeves and perhaps a semi turtle neck... but now we're really talking about a specialty piece of gear, who would buy that?

The solution to this problem that I use is to put my jacket on backwards over the packstraps. I added a clip at the neck to allow this. My back doesn't get as hot and my arms don't get as wet while using poles. I have an umbrella attached to my shoulder strap, and a rain skirt. Greatly reduces the "boil in bag" effect of a rain jacket under the pack.