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Uncle Joe
11-17-2016, 13:26
So over on FB there are a couple of threads going begging people not to go hike the Southern portion of the AT due to the risk of fire. They also mention the smoke and air quality advisories, which is understandable. But the gist of it seems to be hikers = more campfires = more threat. I disagree. There's nothing that says if you hike you have to have a campfire. There is a ban on wood and "liquid" stoves in the Shenandoa, which I would guess rules out alcohol stoves but gas stoves are not banned there. If a hiker honors the fire bans and only uses their stove (or no stove at all) I can't see an issue.

Tipi Walter
11-17-2016, 13:39
I can count on one hand the number of wood campfires I've had in the last 16 years of backpacking. I do use a white gas simmerlite MSR stove but mostly cook in my tent vestibule so I'll know if it gets out of hand since my tent will burn up too---a good reminder that I did something wrong. Campfires are vastly overrated---Don't need them, don't use them.

At 0F I'm much warmer anyway inside my tent sitting on my Thermarest pad and under my -15F WM bag. No place warmer. And not sitting outside with a wind chill of -30F with my face and chest warmish but my back and feet frozen solid. Second, I don't want to be responsible in any way with an open fire or hot coals or sudden wind gusts or whatever else. And a good wood campfire should always be doused with water but I often don't have extra water for this job.

When I strike camp in the morning I do not want to worry a micro-second whether I left a hot ember in camp. Fires are over-rated. To me a campfire is a sign of newb outdoorsmen. Like finding piles of human turds on the ground with strewn toilet paper, I hate finding abandoned campfires still burning but left long ago by no-count miscreants. What? They can't be troubled by putting out their campfires??? American patriots at their best.

Uncle Joe
11-17-2016, 13:44
I don't have a problem with campfires per se. When alone, I never set one. If I come to a shelter and a bunch of people are there and want to start a fire I have no issue. Like you say, as long as they put it out. I agree its irresponsible to leave embers going when you leave.

capehiker
11-17-2016, 13:48
I saw the same post and thought the same thing you did.

hikernutcasey
11-17-2016, 14:47
I feel the same way. People who know I backpack seem to always ask if I have a campfire in the evenings and are surprised to find out I never make a fire. Most of the time I'm just too tired to make the effort and like Tipi says, if it's freezing outside I'm much more comfortable in my shelter and in my sleeping bag anyway.

rocketsocks
11-17-2016, 15:33
I've never once heard on this site that someone carries extra water to douse a fire, ever! Most don't even carry an extra 5th to drink, water water everywhere, to heavy, not needed. Every Boy Scout knows you can pour water on a fire and if you don't stir it up, in the morning you'll hear someone outside say "well someone got up early to start breakfast" Years from now people won't remember that much of this was arson...they'll just blame to dirty hiker types. Put your fire out completely or don't have one...that means check it. Pull your pants down and sit your Lilly arse on the coals.
goodday

Rex Clifton
11-17-2016, 16:53
I disagree somewhat with your premise that they are trying to limit hikers to reduce the risk of additional fires. I'm sure that's part of it but my guess is that they are more concerned with fires spreading rapidly and having to mount a difficult rescue operation. Also, thick smoke can have a negative effect on people with respiratory problems and, in any case, is difficult and unpleasant to hike through. One year I was hiking out west during fire season and it can get pretty hairy out there!

MuddyWaters
11-17-2016, 16:57
Fires be less concern to you on trail when you can see 1/4 mile or more around you.

In woods with no visibility....unnerving to choke on smoke

cneill13
11-17-2016, 17:10
I am heading out on Saturday to camp on the Georgia AT. I have a cliff I like to hammock camp on.

Highs forecast in the mid-40's, lows in the mid-20's with 20 mile per hour winds. It should be interesting.

I'll take some pictures and post if I see any fire activity.

Carl

Tipi Walter
11-17-2016, 17:16
I'd like some updated pics of what the actual ground and forest looks like after these fires, esp in NC and TN.

Hikingjim
11-17-2016, 17:32
I've never once heard on this site that someone carries extra water to douse a fire, ever!

Because that would be really dumb.
I can't say I would ever make a fire when there isn't a water source nearby... unless it was a survival situation
I do agree that a lot of hikers don't put it out properly though. Seen it many many times

Tipi Walter
11-17-2016, 17:45
Because that would be really dumb.
I can't say I would ever make a fire when there isn't a water source nearby... unless it was a survival situation
I do agree that a lot of hikers don't put it out properly though. Seen it many many times

Good post. Validates in part my comment that campfires are for newbs. A fire captivates the beginner. Probably its presence induces a sense of false security in an outdoor setting. It does not.

cneill13
11-17-2016, 17:53
There is a reason campfires are called Hiker TV. And it isn't good.

But I do love my campfires.

I sure wish it would rain so I can build one. It has been at least 6 weeks here in Atlanta.

Carl

Secondmouse
11-17-2016, 18:48
Good post. Validates in part my comment that campfires are for newbs. A fire captivates the beginner. Probably its presence induces a sense of false security in an outdoor setting. It does not.

or it could be that some people simply enjoy a fire regardless of their experience. when I'm hiking I don't normally make a fire but that doesn't mean I don't like to sit back and gaze into one at the end of the day.

social and ceremonial fires are important to indigenous peoples around the world yet I hardly think they'd qualify as newbs. in fact, the Swahili have a word in their language that describe this phenomenon. it means roughly translated, "he dreams the fire"...

Lear
11-17-2016, 18:55
There is something about campfires and fire in general that stimulates the imagination.

Native Americans used fire as a tool to control brush and to manage game.

Lightening probably also caused some fires.

Is it possible we protect too much against the natural effects of fire and thereby create an environment for catastrophe?

Sarcasm the elf
11-17-2016, 18:59
I'm a big fan of campfires, although I rarely have them these days. When I do make one is usually on a more social hike in the winter when the days are short and the company is good, or on rainy days in the early season, knowing how to reliably make a fire during inclement weather is a very useful skill and I enjoy practicing it. Generally if I am in conditions where I really want a campfire then there is already enough snow or rain to mak extinguishing it easy and to prevent any chance of the fire getting out of control.

On the other hand making a campfire in the southern Appalachians during a four month drought is nothing short of madness.

map man
11-17-2016, 19:26
I have hiked in various places in this country when there were campfire bans in effect because of dry conditions. In every circumstance I saw some people building or gathered around campfires anyway. On a couple occasions I mentioned to people I saw doing this that there was a campfire ban in effect and the response was always, "oh, they just lifted the ban - I saw a sign saying so posted at a trailhead." In all cases this was a lie (I knew it and I assume they knew it) and was said in order to save face.

In short, a certain percentage of people camped outside will have campfires in any circumstance -- ban or no ban. The more people hiking in a section of fire-ban affected trail, the more campfires there will be. Sad but true. In that light, it makes a certain amount of sense to try to discourage folks from hiking in fire-prone conditions, even though casting a broad net like that ends up sending the same message to both the responsible and the reckless.

RockDoc
11-17-2016, 20:10
No, the worst danger I've seen personally is when local yokals decide to go "camp" in AT shelters, bringing babies, lots of dogs, 4 wheelers, chain saws, and tons of smelly food. They make huge fires the whole time they are there, which usually is for days at a time. They sure are glad that the ATC makes these neat free camping huts for them...

AfterParty
11-17-2016, 20:18
I agree I have lived in some fragile environments in Colorado springs. I have seen plenty of smokers pourly extinguish their embers both cigs and herbs. Its a pet peeve of mine I guess. Same goes for achl stoves people will still use them and any fire could get outta hand. Responsible or not.

Tipi Walter
11-17-2016, 20:53
social and ceremonial fires are important to indigenous peoples around the world yet I hardly think they'd qualify as newbs.

The American backpacker is far removed from the act of squatting by a fire in Cro magnon mode as a primitive human relying on fire for survival. We carry stoves and tents and winter bags and pads and lighter and warmer clothing so we never have to rely on a fire if desired. Show me a guy using wood heat in a cabin or a yurt or a wall tent or a canvas tipi with a woodstove and I'd agree in the need for fire for winter survival. Otherwise for backpackers it's a frivolous past time, a sort of Davy Crockett wannabe fantasy.

Plus, what better time for such a conversation as now when the Southeast is on fire and there's a ban on . . . wait for it . . . campfires. Take it to heart and go further---Make it a good habit of never wanting a campfire.

It's about Desire vs Necessity. We want a fire. 99% of the time a fire is not necessary for survival, especially in the Southeast and on the Appalachian Trail.

Spirit Walker
11-17-2016, 21:05
It's not just campfires that create risk. It's also smokers who are careless with sparks and butts. There are also a lot of people who light alcohol stoves on top of leaves or other burnables. I met a hiker in Wyoming who said he had started 5 grass fires. Cars at trailheads can ignite fires without intending to as well.

When the drought and fire danger is as high as it is right now, it is smart to stay away. You don't want to be caught in the backcountry in the middle of a wildfire or worse, be the cause of one.

Cookerhiker
11-17-2016, 21:43
.... Campfires are vastly overrated---Don't need them, don't use them. ....

Fully agree, at least in a camping scenario whether backpacking or car-camping. I dread National Park campgrounds in season when all the RVers fill the place with their campfire smoke while they yack until midnight. Once in Sequoia, the campground's setting in a bowl made campfires outright hazardous.

I know, I know - avoid the NP campgrounds. I usually do in the summer.

Now my girlfriend likes to make campfires at her home where she has the acreage and seclusion to do it. I've gone along with it.

rocketsocks
11-17-2016, 22:00
Fire is just a tool, a depends on cow and in this case where ya use it.

rocketsocks
11-17-2016, 22:00
Fire is just a tool, a depends on cow and in this case where ya use it.sausalitch fingers

colorado_rob
11-18-2016, 10:14
It would take all the fingers and toes of most of the WB members to count the hundreds of campfires I've enjoyed with my comrades over the 50 years I've been hiking/camping/backpacking.

Despite what some say, to each his own, campfires are wonderful things, if done right and safely. Why do we (some of us, at least) so enjoy a warm cozy campfire? I think it's mostly just the mesmerizing focus it provides to our outdoor environment.

The "hearth" is one of the four pillars of architecture, and hence today, even in the warm southern areas, builders still build in some sort of fireplace (mostly gas these days) in new homes, at least most of them. Buyers seem to insist. Why? The enjoyment of a warm fire seems to be built into our souls somehow. Maybe it has to do with simple evolution; our ancestors that used fire for their survival lived whereas those that didn't have it didn't flourish, so we have an actual predisposition (again, some, not all of us) to a central hearth fire. So here we are, away from our comfortable homes and hearths, out in the cold woods, these wonderful campfires bring a bit of the comfort of home to us.

This all being said, these days on long distance hiking trips, we do not build fires much, we're just too darned wiped out by the time it's dark out. I personally don't much enjoy daytime fires, I probably haven't built a daytime fire in 10 years. But it is sure nice on fall and winter trips when it's dark by 5pm!

I'll post a recent campfire pic when I'm on my actual computer.... Halloween camping in the Utah desert; we must have gone through 20 bundles of firewood in two glorious nights! Twenty fellow canyoneers, all sitting around in complete contentment after tough days of negotiating canyons, enjoying the wonderful comradery that a campfire affords.

Uncle Joe
11-18-2016, 10:16
I disagree somewhat with your premise that they are trying to limit hikers to reduce the risk of additional fires. I'm sure that's part of it but my guess is that they are more concerned with fires spreading rapidly and having to mount a difficult rescue operation. Also, thick smoke can have a negative effect on people with respiratory problems and, in any case, is difficult and unpleasant to hike through. One year I was hiking out west during fire season and it can get pretty hairy out there!

And that was noted but the gist of it seemed to be the fire. The OP said something like, "Don't be part of the problem" or something like that. My issue was that it was a blanket statement. "Don't come here! Go North!" Much of the GA section of the AT is fire free. The smoke is largely clearing but even if not the individual can determine if the smoke is an issue for them.

Secondmouse
11-18-2016, 10:56
The American backpacker is far removed from the act of squatting by a fire in Cro magnon mode as a primitive human relying on fire for survival. We carry stoves and tents and winter bags and pads and lighter and warmer clothing so we never have to rely on a fire if desired. Show me a guy using wood heat in a cabin or a yurt or a wall tent or a canvas tipi with a woodstove and I'd agree in the need for fire for winter survival. Otherwise for backpackers it's a frivolous past time, a sort of Davy Crockett wannabe fantasy.

Plus, what better time for such a conversation as now when the Southeast is on fire and there's a ban on . . . wait for it . . . campfires. Take it to heart and go further---Make it a good habit of never wanting a campfire.

It's about Desire vs Necessity. We want a fire. 99% of the time a fire is not necessary for survival, especially in the Southeast and on the Appalachian Trail.

well now you're changing what you said before. never said it is necessary for survival. you said it's only newbs who like/want them. you're wrong about that...

Secondmouse
11-18-2016, 10:59
Fully agree, at least in a camping scenario whether backpacking or car-camping. I dread National Park campgrounds in season when all the RVers fill the place with their campfire smoke while they yack until midnight. Once in Sequoia, the campground's setting in a bowl made campfires outright hazardous.

I know, I know - avoid the NP campgrounds. I usually do in the summer.

Now my girlfriend likes to make campfires at her home where she has the acreage and seclusion to do it. I've gone along with it.

if you're "camping" at an RV park, you kinda deserve what you get. that's a part of this experience. if I overnight in a park, I go to the primitive campsites...

colorado_rob
11-18-2016, 11:02
well now you're changing what you said before. never said it is necessary for survival. you said it's only newbs who like/want them. you're wrong about that...That's for sure, though I do see part of his point just a bit; I think there is a correlation to relative newness to backpacking and the desire to build fires. Probably the simple novelty of sitting around a fire for the beginning/intermediate folks who have never done so. But I'd stack my experience level up against anyone on here, and I still build fires a lot, when conditions warrant.

Tipi Walter
11-18-2016, 11:49
well now you're changing what you said before. never said it is necessary for survival. you said it's only newbs who like/want them. you're wrong about that...

The majority of backpackers I see on my trips, whether on the AT or on the BMT or up in Mt Rogers or into various wilderness areas in the Southeast---all build campfires. I'd put the number at around 85%. As Colorado Rob says, there's a correlation with newbs wanting fires, but there's also the ingrained notion of even experts demanding the usual campfire.

I regularly have to tell new arrivals to a big campsite I'm set up in (first come, first dibs) and who want to "horn in on me" (I occasionally set up by the main firepit) to NOT build a fire or go someplace else as I do not want my tent pinholed by flying hot embers. If a guy is set up in a tent by a fire ring it is extremely rude to take over his campsite and start a fire next to his tent. First come, first dibs. The desire for a big bonfire often overwhelms people so respect and politeness goes out the door.

This is only a problem at big campsites with room for 5 or 7 tents. Small campsites with a single fire ring are "owned" once entered and camp arranged. New arrivals always have to find their own separate campsites with their own fire rings. Trail etiquette. I'm not one who drools over a campfire.

This is not to say I haven't built campfires in years past, especially on group gatherings and especially when building sweatlodges in the forest and wanting to pull sweats.

https://photos.smugmug.com/BooneYears/Pisgah-Upper-Creek/i-vvp5kcQ/0/XL/Harpers%20Creek%20Pisgah%20with%20Bob%2C%20TW%20an d%20Steve-XL.jpg
Here I am (the ratso rizzo character in middle) in 1982 with a sweatlodge fire preparing hot rocks for the sweat---in Pisgah NF on Harper Creek (sweatlodge in back). My wonderful North Face ext frame pack is behind me. A fire is required if you want to do a sweatlodge, of course.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-7CwRFzn/0/XL/TRIP%20170%20184-XL.jpg
I think the main allure of fire comes in group settings as shown in this pic taken on a trip to Bob Mt in December 2015. Most everyone needs a fire to establish a group gathering place.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Citico-Snow/i-qC9BNK4/0/L/TRIP%20118%20214-L.jpg
Sometimes backpackers like to build fires in order to get warm as was the case when 3 backpackers did a nighthike into Cold Spring Gap at 10F and in the morning built a fire for a zero day of shivering. January 2011.

Hikingjim
11-18-2016, 12:15
Newbs make more campfires. That doesn't make campfires for newbs
If I hike solo for 13 hours, there is no chance I'll bother with a fire, especially if it's dry or summer. But if i'm in a group next to a lake, I will gather a bunch of wood and make a nice fire and enjoy it.

Depends on the season, purpose of the trip, etc. I did a long solo canoe trip in the fringe season, and I probably made 15 fires. 30f and dark, right next to the lake; thoroughly enjoyable fires. Hopefully in the future I don't call that "newb" and just sit in my tent

Rain Man
11-18-2016, 13:21
I'll just add that not all campfires are equal. Seems to be a lot of "compensation" that goes on that determines the size of the fire.

If you are going to have a campfire (no matter the circumstances) at least don't build a "white man's fire." No, bigger isn't better.

capehiker
11-18-2016, 13:31
I'm going to build a campfire tonight just for you Tipi. Try not to thumb your nose at me too much while sitting in that ivory tower.

theinfamousj
11-18-2016, 14:15
I live in Chapel Hill, NC, and today the smell of forest fire is thick in the air.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Tipi Walter
11-18-2016, 14:23
I'm going to build a campfire tonight just for you Tipi. Try not to thumb your nose at me too much while sitting in that ivory tower.

The Cherokee NF and Nantahala NF and the states of TN and NC must also be living in that ivory tower since there's a complete BAN on all campfires.

As much as I dislike the nanny state telling us where we can camp or requiring a fee-per-night like in the Smokies, I could live with a permanent fire ban on all public land in the Southeast, like the permanent fire ban in Shining Rock wilderness. I've just seen too much trashed firepits with half-burned loaves of bread and unburned beer cans and vienna sausage cans and smoldering wet shirts---

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2002-2004/13-Backpacking-Trips-Of-2003/i-Q73B7wf/0/XL/Trip%2021%20%202-XL.jpg
This welcome mat was set out for all visitors into the Slickrock wilderness in NC---the mess is on Slickrock Creek and is still smoldering with the stuff too wet to burn.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-ttC836N/0/XL/TRIP%20167%20170-XL.jpg
This awesome pristine sight is on Snowbird Creek wilderness in NC. You just get a tingling good feeling knowing that your human brothers are squatting next to these fires reveling in their Neanderthal roots and reenacting the primitive days of 20,000 years ago.

MuddyWaters
11-18-2016, 16:32
Fires are for car campers

Few things show less concern for lnt than building fires.

Taking a dump in middle of trail is better. Thats gone in days, not centuries

Tipi Walter
11-18-2016, 16:40
Fires are for car campers

Few things show less concern for lnt than building fires.

Taking a dump in middle of trail is better.

Thanks for the input; I like the way your mind thinks. Fires are for car campers, sure enough. As are roll-in parking lots, noisy generators, 40 foot RVs, nightly fees and all the rest.

Which is worse, taking (giving?) a dump in the middle of a trail? Or leaving a campfire burning unattended by occupants who left the forest the day before? Both are vile. I've got pics to prove both but there's no point in dredging them up.

saltysack
11-18-2016, 17:02
Fires are for car campers

Few things show less concern for lnt than building fires.

Taking a dump in middle of trail is better. Thats gone in days, not centuries

As for fires and dumps......location is everything!


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saltysack
11-18-2016, 17:05
Both stink![emoji91][emoji90]


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capehiker
11-18-2016, 17:07
Tipi- my reply was in response to your elitist view that only newbs build campfires for the Davy Crockett experience. I've been backpacking for 30 years and still enjoy a nice campfire at night. As my father told me as a wee one, "a campfire creates family". This was from someone who was backpacking before you were even a thought to your parents.

I'm not disputing your other assertions of litter, poor judgment and LNT violations. I'm merely suggesting that because we all don't backpack "The Tipi Way", doesn't mean you are right and we are wrong.

Secondmouse
11-18-2016, 17:08
Thanks for the input; I like the way your mind thinks. Fires are for car campers, sure enough. As are roll-in parking lots, noisy generators, 40 foot RVs, nightly fees and all the rest.

Which is worse, taking (giving?) a dump in the middle of a trail? Or leaving a campfire burning unattended by occupants who left the forest the day before? Both are vile. I've got pics to prove both but there's no point in dredging them up.

fires are for anyone who wants them. and you don't have to be a newb or someone who dumps in the middle of the trail to want to sit by a fire. there's more than one way to enjoy the outdoors...

if there's a burn ban in place no one should go against that but for you to throw shade on anyone because they enjoy sitting by a fire when they're allowed, you don't have that right...

Tipi Walter
11-18-2016, 17:27
Tipi- my reply was in response to your elitist view that only newbs build campfires for the Davy Crockett experience. I've been backpacking for 30 years and still enjoy a nice campfire at night. As my father told me as a wee one, "a campfire creates family". This was from someone who was backpacking before you were even a thought to your parents.

I'm not disputing your other assertions of litter, poor judgment and LNT violations. I'm merely suggesting that because we all don't backpack "The Tipi Way", doesn't mean you are right and we are wrong.

Currently anyone who backpacks in TN or Georgia or NC will never apparently create a family atmosphere because there's a multi-state ban on campfires. The "tipi way" is now policy for at least three states for the foreseeable future. I may not like or encourage the regular use of campfires, but at least I never tried to ban them as the states are doing. Far from becoming "tipi's way", now it's TN's Way or NC's Way . . . or the highway.

capehiker
11-18-2016, 17:38
Currently anyone who backpacks in TN or Georgia or NC will never apparently create a family atmosphere because there's a multi-state ban on campfires. The "tipi way" is now policy for at least three states for the foreseeable future. I may not like or encourage the regular use of campfires, but at least I never tried to ban them as the states are doing. Far from becoming "tipi's way", now it's TN's Way or NC's Way . . . or the highway.

I've never once talked about fire bans or anything along those lines. Once again, I am referencing your opinion that only newbs like campfires for the Davy Crocket experience. That's it! I am NOT referring to anything else.

Tipi Walter
11-18-2016, 17:49
fires are for anyone who wants them. and you don't have to be a newb or someone who dumps in the middle of the trail to want to sit by a fire. there's more than one way to enjoy the outdoors...

if there's a burn ban in place no one should go against that but for you to throw shade on anyone because they enjoy sitting by a fire when they're allowed, you don't have that right...

What right? I just expressed an opinion of backpackers who build fires. I have the right of an opinion and even ridicule just as you have the right to discuss my opinions. No sweat. And I stick by my opinion of how campfires captivate newbs for various reasons. I guess every time we express a differing opinion we become elitists?

So what about others on this thread who don't have wonderful things to say about campfires? How about Hikernut Casey who mostly never makes a fire and he's much more comfy in his shelter than sitting by a fire? Or Hiking Jim who says alot of hikers don't put their fires out properly and he's seen it many times? Or Sarcasm the elf who says making a campfire during a 4 month drought is nothing short of madness? Or Cookerhiker with agrees that campfires are vastly overrated? Or Muddy Waters who says fires are for car campers and campfires show bad LNT practices? Are we all elitists? I'm not the only one.

Oh and please read Puddlefish's post on a similar thread---I like his quote: "The old "I've been leaving smoldering piles of coals overnight for 30 years and I've never started a fire" crowd."
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/121824-Saddened-by-the-fires-Class-of-2017-will-hike-through-a-battlefield?p=2105100&viewfull=1#post2105100

winger
11-18-2016, 18:47
Seriously? three pages deliberating the onerous aspects of building a fire? After 50 years of camping, backpacking and yes....building the occasional well reasoned and introspective but inane campfire, with some contemplation as to the consequences, yes I might or not build one.

Tipi Walter
11-18-2016, 19:26
Seriously? three pages deliberating the onerous aspects of building a fire? After 50 years of camping, backpacking and yes....building the occasional well reasoned and introspective but inane campfire, with some contemplation as to the consequences, yes I might or not build one.

It's a contentious issue especially now that we have a near complete campfire ban in the Southeast with hundreds of fires burning thruout the area. Discussing campfires is right at the top of topics to study here on Whiteblaze.

rocketsocks
11-18-2016, 19:32
It's a hot topic!

winger
11-18-2016, 19:43
It's a contentious issue especially now that we have a near complete campfire ban in the Southeast with hundreds of fires burning thruout the area. Discussing campfires is right at the top of topics to study here on Whiteblaze.

With due respect, Tipi, read my post again, I happen to be agreeing with you. It seems that common sense has been lost amongst those that would build a fire during a fire ban and endangering our beloved wilderness. And it seems, that common sense goes a long way to decision making at other times of fire building. But I should not preach to the choir.

Slo-go'en
11-18-2016, 21:50
At certain times of the year, there is probably a campfire burning every 10 miles or so along the entire length of the AT (With the possible exception of NJ and CT where campfires are technically illegal). Which is quite remarkable when you think about it.

I mostly don't bother with fires, but having one once in while is nice under the correct circumstances. (being cold and wet at the end of the day is good incentive)

Praha4
11-18-2016, 22:17
my comment will be meant with some humor, as this is a great thread and every opinion is welcome. I've been hearing about these fires for a couple weeks now from family members in the Charlotte, NC area, who are experiencing air quality alerts too.

when these fires are all done...it will pretty much be natures way of conducting a controlled burn. Unfortunately, nature does it in uncontrolled fashion.

that said, I will be adding a 3rd topic to the list of those things to never bring up for conversation at AT shelters :)

1. Politics
2. Religion
3. Pros & Cons of campfires

all we need now to liven this up is begin debating whether the long drought in the Southeast and these fires are further evidence of global warming.

Cowboyhard
11-19-2016, 09:57
Campfires have been a part of camping forever. Campfires are not a part of hiking. If you are on the move don't think you can control a fire ring with left to smolder trash? I am new to long hiking so my option is not worth much. The common sense in a ban is to be safe. That being said emergency only and then you should still pay a price for having a fire .

Bronk
11-19-2016, 10:21
This time of year I'm likely to have a fire. It gets dark too soon and I don't want to spend 12 hours in my tent waiting for morning. But its been really dry here for the last couple of months and I would be very apprehensive about lighting a fire...plus the last two days it has been very windy here...I worried that somebody might start a fire that would quickly spiral out of control.

Tipi Walter
11-19-2016, 11:13
This time of year I'm likely to have a fire. It gets dark too soon and I don't want to spend 12 hours in my tent waiting for morning. But its been really dry here for the last couple of months and I would be very apprehensive about lighting a fire...plus the last two days it has been very windy here...I worried that somebody might start a fire that would quickly spiral out of control.

No offense, but this whole post sounds like a scene out of the movie Idiocracy.

colorado_rob
11-19-2016, 11:19
No offense, but this whole post sounds like a scene out of the movie Idiocracy.Because of WHICH post below?

Tipi Walter
11-19-2016, 11:34
Because of WHICH post below?

???? Bronk's post. Likely to have a fire. Gets dark too soon. 12 hours in a tent waiting. Really dry. Probably won't build a fire. Very windy. Somebody might start a fire.

This has all the elements of a weird comedy. It describes conditions in Florida but just as well could've been written from someone in NC or TN or Georgia. Sure it gets dark too soon but what's wrong with 12 hours in a tent . . . sleeping, eating, reading, listening to a radio, doing yoga, looking thru your camera pics??? Is a campfire our only escape? Too windy for a fire and yet . . . wait for it . . . someone might start a campfire. It's like the whole of the Southern United States is peopled with humans with bic lighters and tiny fireant brains, stumbling from campsite to campsite in a daze wanting their fires no matter how windy it gets.

Not talking about Bronk here, I think he's got the memo on how dry it is and how dangerous it is---but his post got me to thinking about the thousands of Southerners who go into the woods and want desperately to have their campfires despite the ban, the wind, the drought, the kindling, the forest infernos. Luckily in East TN the honchos are closing the gravel forest roads to everyone and even closing various wilderness areas to on foot entry.

-Rush-
11-19-2016, 14:31
I used to attend Camp Toccoa every summer in the 80s and we always gathered around a campfire at the end of the day and listened to stories from Appalachia and Indian folklore. That's when I enjoy a campfire the most. I can't remember the last time I built a fire along the trail hiking solo. It's always too late and I'm too tired to care, but it is nice if a group already has one going. If I'm at a site where there was a fire, I always make sure to spread and pee on the coals before bed and in the morning when possible. I do carry a small candle lantern with me sometimes, usually when my son is with me, so we can enjoy the light of a fire at camp.

K2 Travels
11-19-2016, 19:07
Wow this fire thread is heating up!

Seriously though I see no correlation between beginning hikers/backpackers (or newbs as tipi likes to say) and fires. I would argue the opposite as they usually fail at starting one.

When I hike alone i tend to go without a fire as compared to when I go with friends. I see more tent time as easily done solo but sort of rude with friends.

I do try to build a fire when it is colder/wetter outside as I really like drying my pairs of socks. So when I hike in colder/wetter environments i bring along a 1lb knife for splitting wood (go ahead and insert some judgmental remark here about how you only carry a nail file for a blade and how that somehow makes you sweet).

I did find that bringing along a MPowerd lantern and placing it inside a fire ring does a good job of supplementing a fire when you cannot have one. Though it can't dry socks! : /

Secondmouse
11-19-2016, 19:09
It's a contentious issue especially now that we have a near complete campfire ban in the Southeast with hundreds of fires burning thruout the area. Discussing campfires is right at the top of topics to study here on Whiteblaze.

no it's not. no one here advocated having a camp fire where/when it's banned. but you pushed the envelope to ridicule anyone who wants to enjoy sitting by the fire as newbs like you're some kind of backpacking authority and as I said, you don't have that right. you have no right to criticize anyone.

there's no rules, except as I was taught, to leave it better than you found it and have some fun...

MuddyWaters
11-19-2016, 21:02
no it's not. no one here advocated having a camp fire where/when it's banned. but you pushed the envelope to ridicule anyone who wants to enjoy sitting by the fire as newbs like you're some kind of backpacking authority and as I said, you don't have that right. you have no right to criticize anyone.

Pot.....meet kettle....
(Your criticizing someone)

Its ok to have opinion
Its ok to voice opinion
its ok to disagree with others
Its not ok to not be able to accept that others opinions are different from yours

Its an interweb forum . Criticize whatever you like. If it gets anyone too riled up, they have issues.

Secondmouse
11-20-2016, 13:56
Pot.....meet kettle....
(Your criticizing someone)

Its ok to have opinion
Its ok to voice opinion
its ok to disagree with others
Its not ok to not be able to accept that others opinions are different from yours

Its an interweb forum . Criticize whatever you like. If it gets anyone too riled up, they have issues.

pot meet butt-out...

I wasn't criticizing Walter, I actually enjoy the man. I was responding to his comment that anyone who wants a fire is a newb, not criticizing the person.

when you can separate the behavior from the individual, then you can contend without being contentious...

-Rush-
11-20-2016, 15:02
pot

Perfect. See you at the trailhead.

MuddyWaters
11-20-2016, 19:32
pot meet butt-out...

I wasn't criticizing Walter, I actually enjoy the man. I was responding to his comment that anyone who wants a fire is a newb, not criticizing the person.

when you can separate the behavior from the individual, then you can contend without being contentious...
....like you're some kind of backpacking authority and as I said, you don't have that right. you have no right to criticize anyone.



You flat out tell someone they have no right to criticize anyone??

Who do YOU think you are???
The forum police?


You dont respect someone elses right to express opinion apparently, when you dont agree

theinfamousj
11-21-2016, 00:59
I am not sure that the number of miles hiked by an individual makes for better fire safety and better fire hygiene (for lack of a better term). I think firebuilding is its own skill which improves with practice and education. And as with any other education, the better your mastery, the less you need to practice.

Someone new to the outdoors is new to firebuilding and new to hiking. They need to practice both skills and do so. You would call them a newb, but I am suggesting that we call them a newb hiker *and* a newb firebuilder.

It is certainly possible to have logged many hiking miles without gaining any firebuilding skill. They would then be an experienced backpacker but still a newbie firebuilder.

There are those extremely skilled at bushcraft who hike at most a mile of a trip. They are newbies at hiking, but not at firebuilding.

That said, the more experienced you get, the more it isn't worth it, isn't exciting, or doesn't captivate as a challenge. It is just a fire. So you build it only when a fire is the tool called for, rather than to prove that you can.

And the odds that you reach that level of mastery of firebuilding is raised with each minute a person spends outdoors.

So, a loose correlation rather than causality is what I am suggesting between firebuilding and backpacking.

That said, I fully support the assertion that with mastery comes decreased firebuilding for the reasons outlined above.

None of the above is criticism. What *is* criticism is what I will say to anyone's face when they build an unsafe fire, fail to attend their fire, or build a fire during a burn ban even if skilled. But I am quite sure so would we all. :)

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rashamon12
11-21-2016, 03:53
well if it means anything not to say its directly connected to any of these fires. The major fires out west most of them have been prooven to be arson started by an illegal immigrant that was deported several times. There are people who are destructive and for the most part it isnt the people hiking the trail that causes them. just food for thought and perspective.

TNhiker
11-21-2016, 10:42
The major fires out west most of them have been prooven to be arson started by an illegal immigrant that was deported several times.




can you provide some proof of this or is this just some fear mongering that you learned from this past election....

saltysack
11-21-2016, 10:58
can you provide some proof of this or is this just some fear mongering that you learned from this past election....

Can fire jump the "GREAT WALL"......[emoji23]


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freys
11-21-2016, 11:39
I won't get into the are you from here or not fiasco but out here in Oregon/Idaho there are lots of fires set by arson for work. Come mid summer guys who fight forest fires that are out of work and down on their luck set major fires. About 4 or 5 years ago it was the 20 something year old son of the forest service fire chief for the area. They know how to set them so that they will blaze fast and burn long allowing them to go back to work.

Tipi Walter
11-21-2016, 11:44
I am not sure that the number of miles hiked by an individual makes for better fire safety and better fire hygiene (for lack of a better term). I think firebuilding is its own skill which improves with practice and education. And as with any other education, the better your mastery, the less you need to practice.

Someone new to the outdoors is new to firebuilding and new to hiking. They need to practice both skills and do so. You would call them a newb, but I am suggesting that we call them a newb hiker *and* a newb firebuilder.

It is certainly possible to have logged many hiking miles without gaining any firebuilding skill. They would then be an experienced backpacker but still a newbie firebuilder.

There are those extremely skilled at bushcraft who hike at most a mile of a trip. They are newbies at hiking, but not at firebuilding.

That said, the more experienced you get, the more it isn't worth it, isn't exciting, or doesn't captivate as a challenge. It is just a fire. So you build it only when a fire is the tool called for, rather than to prove that you can.

And the odds that you reach that level of mastery of firebuilding is raised with each minute a person spends outdoors.

So, a loose correlation rather than causality is what I am suggesting between firebuilding and backpacking.

That said, I fully support the assertion that with mastery comes decreased firebuilding for the reasons outlined above.

None of the above is criticism. What *is* criticism is what I will say to anyone's face when they build an unsafe fire, fail to attend their fire, or build a fire during a burn ban even if skilled. But I am quite sure so would we all. :)

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Well-thought out and interesting post. It highlights some of the reasonings and facets of campfire psychology. Some points---

** Firebuilding is a skill and mastery comes with practice and education.
** Newb outdoorsman equals newb fire builders.

** Your Quote---"That said, the more experienced you get, the more it isn't worth it, isn't exciting, or doesn't captivate as a challenge. It is just a fire. So you build it only when a fire is the tool called for, rather than to prove that you can."

This quote hits home the most in a perceptive way and reflects my overall feeling about campfires. It's a tool for survival when mandatory (and not necessarily "backpacker's television" whereby it's used as the center for group gatherings).

** You leave out one facet of fire building--- DESIRE is different than Mastery---the yearning wanting for a fire expressed by both expert and newb alike. Never discount this drooling desire for a fire. It overpowers both experience, common sense, fire bans, high winds, and dry conditions.

Secondmouse
11-21-2016, 14:18
....like you're some kind of backpacking authority and as I said, you don't have that right. you have no right to criticize anyone.



You flat out tell someone they have no right to criticize anyone??

Who do YOU think you are???
The forum police?


You dont respect someone elses right to express opinion apparently, when you dont agree

that's right. ever hear of hike your own hike - "you do it your way, I'll do it mine"... that's the mantra of this place is it not?

pretty sure I could go back and find places where you advocated HYOH. so now you're against it?..

Tipi Walter
11-21-2016, 16:20
that's right. ever hear of hike your own hike - "you do it your way, I'll do it mine"... that's the mantra of this place is it not?

pretty sure I could go back and find places where you advocated HYOH. so now you're against it?..

As noted in many threads and posts over the years, the HYOH mantra is not a howl to dismiss differing opinions or a cry to stop discussions. You can use HYOH while at the same time expressing a negative opinion over trail behavior like using the trail for competitive trail runs or carrying a tuba or building bonfires or hiking naked or whatever else.

When someone snaps "Hike your own hike!" it's often a plea to stifle opinions or to discount ridicule. Or to disagree with the idea that newbs might actually want to build a campfire more than others.

Then again the idea you express--"You do it your way and I'll do it my way" is full of problems. Examples? Some idiots want to set up their tent inside a shelter, blocking it for the use of others, or taking exclusive dibs on the rat box, and say "Hike your own hike" when confronted. Oops, their way is the wrong way and need to be judged accordingly.

Or another idiot wants to take a dump right atop the ground near camp and leave their stained toilet paper. "HYOH!!" they shout as you shoot them your best Rambo look.

Or bonobo howling monkey idiots want to build a giant frat-party bonfire in a windstorm on a mountaintop and you take their pics and shake your head. The beat goes on.

MuddyWaters
11-21-2016, 18:02
that's right. ever hear of hike your own hike - "you do it your way, I'll do it mine"... that's the mantra of this place is it not?

pretty sure I could go back and find places where you advocated HYOH. so now you're against it?..

Ill never tell someone they have no right to express an opinion.

Mostly ill give opinion and leave it at that...one time

Theres some that will argue incessantly on every topic, because they feel everyone must agree with them. Theres an obvious problem there...

Thats how simple questions turn into 10 page threads....when first 3 posts answered question adequately

Secondmouse
11-21-2016, 18:09
As noted in many threads and posts over the years, the HYOH mantra is not a howl to dismiss differing opinions or a cry to stop discussions. You can use HYOH while at the same time expressing a negative opinion over trail behavior like using the trail for competitive trail runs or carrying a tuba or building bonfires or hiking naked or whatever else.

When someone snaps "Hike your own hike!" it's often a plea to stifle opinions or to discount ridicule. Or to disagree with the idea that newbs might actually want to build a campfire more than others.

Then again the idea you express--"You do it your way and I'll do it my way" is full of problems. Examples? Some idiots want to set up their tent inside a shelter, blocking it for the use of others, or taking exclusive dibs on the rat box, and say "Hike your own hike" when confronted. Oops, their way is the wrong way and need to be judged accordingly.

Or another idiot wants to take a dump right atop the ground near camp and leave their stained toilet paper. "HYOH!!" they shout as you shoot them your best Rambo look.

Or bonobo howling monkey idiots want to build a giant frat-party bonfire in a windstorm on a mountaintop and you take their pics and shake your head. The beat goes on.

no it's not. using unsanitary and unsafe practices, or taking more than your allotted space in a shelter is not HYOH.

and actually, you said "a campfire is a sign of newb outdoorsmen", not "newbs might actually want to build a campfire more than others"...

rashamon12
11-21-2016, 19:16
If your looking to hike and start a fire just do it the right way and make sure its out. If your not educated to know how to do it you only really have 2 options. Don't start a fire, or learn how to in a controlled environment before going out and doing it where you can start a huge forest fire. Everyone hikes there own hike so dont hate on people for what they do and don't do. Just make sure you are educated.

saltysack
11-21-2016, 22:17
As noted in many threads and posts over the years, the HYOH mantra is not a howl to dismiss differing opinions or a cry to stop discussions. You can use HYOH while at the same time expressing a negative opinion over trail behavior like using the trail for competitive trail runs or carrying a tuba or building bonfires or hiking naked or whatever else.

When someone snaps "Hike your own hike!" it's often a plea to stifle opinions or to discount ridicule. Or to disagree with the idea that newbs might actually want to build a campfire more than others.

Then again the idea you express--"You do it your way and I'll do it my way" is full of problems. Examples? Some idiots want to set up their tent inside a shelter, blocking it for the use of others, or taking exclusive dibs on the rat box, and say "Hike your own hike" when confronted. Oops, their way is the wrong way and need to be judged accordingly.

Or another idiot wants to take a dump right atop the ground near camp and leave their stained toilet paper. "HYOH!!" they shout as you shoot them your best Rambo look.

Or bonobo howling monkey idiots want to build a giant frat-party bonfire in a windstorm on a mountaintop and you take their pics and shake your head. The beat goes on.

[emoji100][emoji91][emoji90][emoji482]....tipi you cover it!!!


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Neemor
11-22-2016, 14:12
I think it may not be a warning for backpackers to hike the southern AT, but more a warning for "campers" who hike in.
Most backpackers never have a fire. (As mentioned above) I don't carry a stove or even a lighter, so I couldn't start a fire even if I wanted to.
But I have been surprised by the amount of people who light a fire, watch it burn for a few minutes than go to bed.

In Washington on the pct I camped with 2 men on top of a saddle. They drank whiskey, then left the fire saying there is no way Washington could burn...its "too green".......
After they went to bed i had to pour all the water I had left on it...
I'm not sure why people are lazy about fire...if I started something that burned thousands of acres of land I dunno how I'd live with that.

Stoves and campfires are totally unnecessary. [emoji1591]


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Tipi Walter
11-22-2016, 14:35
I think it may not be a warning for backpackers to hike the southern AT, but more a warning for "campers" who hike in.
Most backpackers never have a fire. (As mentioned above) I don't carry a stove or even a lighter, so I couldn't start a fire even if I wanted to.
But I have been surprised by the amount of people who light a fire, watch it burn for a few minutes than go to bed.

In Washington on the pct I camped with 2 men on top of a saddle. They drank whiskey, then left the fire saying there is no way Washington could burn...its "too green".......
After they went to bed i had to pour all the water I had left on it...
I'm not sure why people are lazy about fire...if I started something that burned thousands of acres of land I dunno how I'd live with that.

Stoves and campfires are totally unnecessary. [emoji1591]


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I really like the way your mind thinks. And no one I don't think has mentioned the terrible correlation between campfires and alcohol consumption. It's often the case that both booze and flames go together in a devilish cycle and I've been witnessed to this on many occasions. I call them plain DRUNKS and become a witness to their idiocy---such as big bonfires in dry conditions, bonfires in high winds, leaving fires burning as they sleep, and the worst of all: Leaving their campfires burning as they pack up and leave and don't ever return.

You always know when you have drunks nearby as they howl all night with disturbingly loud voices and try to build the biggest fires they can manage. I always pray for a tremendous weather event or a sudden deep plunge in temps to -10F or a two foot snowfall or an 8 inch rain deluge on our camps so they'll shut up and go to bed.

Some people go out just so they can drink and get plastered, but this is another subject different than building campfires. Or is it??

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/Back-In-Citico/i-bHJbrKB/0/XL/Trip%20159%20047-XL.jpg
I found this still burning fire at a campsite left long ago by miscreant campers. It's not the first time I found such a thing.

I can hear people posting now--"But it's okay to take a small flask and sip to relax at the end of the day." You'd be surprised how many backpackers haul whiskey or beer or even boxed wine. Saw two guys once who brought out a full gallon of red wine. Go ahead and nurse your john barleycorn but please don't like Neemor make us put out your fires.

Neemor
11-22-2016, 14:45
You always know when you have drunks nearby as they howl all night with disturbingly loud voices and try to build the biggest fires they can manage. I always pray for a tremendous weather event or a sudden deep plunge in temps to -10F or a two foot snowfall or an 8 inch rain deluge on our camps so they'll shut up and go to bed.

You'd be surprised how many backpackers haul whiskey or beer or even boxed wine. Saw two guys once who brought out a full gallon of red wine.

Hahaha! I've never wished bad weather down, because that would mean I suffer too [emoji1]
I found there to be far less of those kind of people out west on the pct, it was only when i got near bigger parks or trailheads.
But i often would pack out some wine to fall asleep to. (When I could justify spending the money)

It seems to me that campfires are just associated with camping. It would be hard for people to imagine going camping without lighting a fire.


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K2 Travels
11-22-2016, 14:58
Stoves and campfires are totally unnecessary. [emoji1591]

Stoves being totally unnecessary!? Bit of an exaggeration there. Campfires? Again not totally unnecessary but due to ignorance they are a larger issue. Should never restrict something completely because a few are negligent or even reckless.

Neemor
11-22-2016, 15:25
Stoves being totally unnecessary!? Bit of an exaggeration there. Campfires? Again not totally unnecessary but due to ignorance they are a larger issue. Should never restrict something completely because a few are negligent or even reckless.

Stoves might be enjoyable, but they aren't necessary. Stoves are relatively new in outdoor exploring. But I have nothing against them.


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Kaptainkriz
11-22-2016, 15:32
I tend to avoid the campfire area and tent well away. The smoke from a poorly managed fire makes my stuff stink more than I already do. :). A simple quick boil for some tea and warm food is all I'm after and any number of small stoves fill that desire. The breakfast fire is the one I still don't understand...

K2 Travels
11-22-2016, 17:11
Stoves might be enjoyable, but they aren't necessary. Stoves are relatively new in outdoor exploring. But I have nothing against them.

I wouldn't say I enjoy my stove. I enjoy having warm food in my belly ; )

Also before stoves they still had warm food from campfires.

STOP TRYING TO KILL MY WARM FOOD!

Sandy of PA
11-22-2016, 17:36
The folks at Gossamer Gear made a no stove solution for warm food, check out the crotch pot! It started as an April Fools joke until someone tried it and found out how well it worked.

AfterParty
11-22-2016, 17:47
I like a small fire to cook fish on but not when there is a fireban!

Neemor
11-22-2016, 18:12
The folks at Gossamer Gear made a no stove solution

I saw that recently. I thought it was quite funny.

K2 Travels
11-22-2016, 20:04
The folks at Gossamer Gear made a no stove solution for warm food, check out the crotch pot! It started as an April Fools joke until someone tried it and found out how well it worked.

I saw that, got a good laugh.

I'm angry with GG of late because of the direction they are taking the gorilla backpack. Went from around 25oz in 2014 (great pack) to over 35oz with their latest version, terrible.

Wise Old Owl
11-22-2016, 21:10
I'd like some updated pics of what the actual ground and forest looks like after these fires, esp in NC and TN.

Google - Click on Image then add "North Carolina after the fire"

https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-QV996_TRAILF_GR_20161117163936.jpg
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/wxNKmjpqV1a.jqGKbEQ.QQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAwO2lsPXBsYW5l/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/e8c8bb86d94748afbad3928f6c7d9cde.jpg

Wise Old Owl
11-22-2016, 21:15
This one April of this year


https://mgtvwspa.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/silver-mine-fire4.jpg?w=650

Wise Old Owl
11-22-2016, 21:34
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/53953a665d8b0287a9b3a55d9ed978349096d833/c=0-0-1432-1077&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2016/04/22/CarolinaGroup/Asheville/635969060690456340-KiwanaFire.jpg

Wise Old Owl
11-22-2016, 21:49
The folks at Gossamer Gear made a no stove solution for warm food, check out the crotch pot! It started as an April Fools joke until someone tried it and found out how well it worked.


Hi Sandy, interesting post.... Uh can you say chafe? I am not buying into this, without some web connections. Really interested - help me out.

gpburdelljr
11-22-2016, 21:53
I've been hiking and camping for close to 50 years and still occasionally enjoy a fire. I don't build them in windy, or dry conditions, or where there is a ban for other reasons. I always thoroughly extinguish them.

Tipi Walter
11-22-2016, 21:58
Wise Old Owl---Thanks for the pics. It looks like the leaf litter is burning off and for the most part leaving living trees. Makes for some smelly future campsites---I camped on ashes once after a prescribed burn---it does have a strong odor. But not the wasteland I pictured.

Wise Old Owl
11-22-2016, 21:58
well its not you - its folks that do not know better.

Sarcasm the elf
11-22-2016, 22:05
Wise Old Owl---Thanks for the pics. It looks like the leaf litter is burning off and for the most part leaving living trees. Makes for some smelly future campsites---I camped on ashes once after a prescribed burn---it does have a strong odor. But not the wasteland I pictured.

I regret not stopping to take photos when I hiked through the area outside Kent CT that had major a duff fire. All the semi-decomposed leaf litter burnt up and took much of the undergrowth and small trees with it, the mature trees were left mostly unharmed. New vegetation and wildflowers were quickly taking up the available forest floor.

One of the crazy things about that area is that the A.T. was clearly used as the fireline. With one side burn and the other side raked clean to stop the spread of the fire.

Wise Old Owl
11-22-2016, 22:18
I have a thoughtful rub that even get's me. On a trip with a wonderful group in Delaware Water Gap, as we headed south, we ran across an old 1950's camp site at one point. - there were numerous signs that you were not allowed to camp here. The old site was below a ridge, protected from wind, and weather... ooops too close to a wonderful stream of fresh water. IMO the best sheltered place for backpackers. We were forced by trail runner and the team, to a bad spot on a windy ridge, where nobody in their right mind would light a fire, bit of a walk for water and want to camp unless you like campsites for a sunset.

The "assigned" place was stripped by a backpacker wild fire years ago with evidence, you could tell from the standing black trees.

I am just frustrated. I think the current placements of where to sleep are terrible. If I hike alone, possibly it would not have been an issue....

RS - please do not comment - yes you were on this trip.... this is how I feel on the issue.

TNhiker
11-22-2016, 23:27
Wise Old Owl---Thanks for the pics. It looks like the leaf litter is burning off and for the most part leaving living trees. Makes for some smelly future campsites---I camped on ashes once after a prescribed burn---it does have a strong odor. But not the wasteland I pictured.



from what ive seen so far-----and these are with the fires still burning and active-----and ive been to the neddy fire (cocke county) and the quarry creek fire (one right behind the harley dealership at the entrance to the skyway) and have seen a bunch of the others that we have covered-------these fires are a little different than past forest fires in the south......

the fires are going up higher on the trunks of trees (as opposed to most southern forest fires where its mainly the undergrowth that is burning).......

i think with the drought---things are alot dryer and more than the just the undergrowth is being burned....


i have also seen them cutting some of the deadfall trees down, both the burning ones and just plain dead ones.....

and for the maple springs fire (joyce kilmer)---i have seen some photos of the trees that they have dynamited......

they dynamite them with a low charge and it gives the trunk a more of a natural look with splinter trunks......


these forests will thrive once these are done and out...........


the more interesting damage will be to see what kinda break lines that they have cut into the forest............

Tipi Walter
11-22-2016, 23:38
Hopefully no break lines in the wilderness areas affected---like Kilmer/Slickrock. Or the Cohutta. I think no bulldozers have been allowed inside these areas.

TNhiker
11-22-2016, 23:50
Hopefully no break lines in the wilderness areas affected---like Kilmer/Slickrock. Or the Cohutta. I think no bulldozers have been allowed inside these areas.




welllllllllll..................

thats what im a wonderin'...........

there will still be break lines but hopefully they are just ones done with the rakes..................

rocketsocks
11-23-2016, 08:54
I have a thoughtful rub that even get's me. On a trip with a wonderful group in Delaware Water Gap, as we headed south, we ran across an old 1950's camp site at one point. - there were numerous signs that you were not allowed to camp here. The old site was below a ridge, protected from wind, and weather... ooops too close to a wonderful stream of fresh water. IMO the best sheltered place for backpackers. We were forced by trail runner and the team, to a bad spot on a windy ridge, where nobody in their right mind would light a fire, bit of a walk for water and want to camp unless you like campsites for a sunset.

The "assigned" place was stripped by a backpacker wild fire years ago with evidence, you could tell from the standing black trees.

I am just frustrated. I think the current placements of where to sleep are terrible. If I hike alone, possibly it would not have been an issue....

RS - please do not comment - yes you were on this trip.... this is how I feel on the issue.

Woo, why you continue to be pretentious is beyond me, don't want a comment from me then kindly quit looking for reinforcement from me and as you like to say...move on! When I hike I sleep where I want in the areas the ATC has designated, if you can't handle that, hike another trail. That you'd insinuate you were force by a team is disingenuous at best, and for what it's worth that spot atop the ridge named "backpacker site#2" is one of NJ "beauty spots" had you not forgot your underquilt, or chose to leave it at home to save wait and froze your balls off is your own damn fault...
I suggest you never hang your hammock on a bald, or sleep above tree line if ya can't handle to big boy views and airiness, but please for god sake take responsibility for yourself man...and quit yur bitchin'

-Rush-
11-23-2016, 10:07
The folks at Gossamer Gear made a no stove solution for warm food, check out the crotch pot! It started as an April Fools joke until someone tried it and found out how well it worked.

The last thing I'd want to do is put my food anywhere near my crotch after a long day of hiking. This is probably a joke on the gram weenies out there, and GG probably laughs at and facepalms every order that comes in.

TylerJ76
11-23-2016, 14:45
Google - Click on Image then add "North Carolina after the fire"

https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-QV996_TRAILF_GR_20161117163936.jpg




Oddly
Beautiful.

Secondmouse
11-25-2016, 16:25
Wise Old Owl---Thanks for the pics. It looks like the leaf litter is burning off and for the most part leaving living trees. Makes for some smelly future campsites---I camped on ashes once after a prescribed burn---it does have a strong odor. But not the wasteland I pictured.

yes I wonder what the net gain/loss on this will eventually be. many plants/forests rely on fire to propagate correctly. fires occur naturally but with modern firefighting techniques, many forests are not allowed this natural process.

I hope this can be a net good. and I wonder what effect it has/will have on the balds...

MuddyWaters
11-25-2016, 17:18
I camped in a wildfire burned area on a trail several yrs ago . Pine forest that burned about 7 yrs earlier. Everything was still completely black under the thin layer of pinestraw. Everything gets dirty and sooty. rocks, stumps, logs, treetrunks.

kolokolo
11-25-2016, 20:15
I hiked through some burned areas north of Hot Springs this past May, and could already see new growth on trees/shrubs that had had the leaves burned off only a few weeks before.


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rocketsocks
11-26-2016, 02:12
Drove through the NJ pine barrens today, last years fire was being swollowed up by this years new growth, the understory was lush and green...I suspect it's always been this way since the beginning.

Secondmouse
11-26-2016, 13:06
I hiked through some burned areas north of Hot Springs this past May, and could already see new growth on trees/shrubs that had had the leaves burned off only a few weeks before.


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yeah, last February I hiked through an area on the Pinhoti that just recently had a controlled burn but it was too early for new growth to pop out. according to a friend that's been through that area recently, it's all good now...

daddytwosticks
11-27-2016, 17:06
Areas that have had "controlled burns" come back very quickly. Our previous house butted up against US forest service land and they used to do controlled burns about every four to six years right behind our dwelling. Areas that have had true uncontrolled wild fires, I don't know. Once the tree itself burns, it seems like that area would be destroyed. :)