View Full Version : Leave no trace VS Ziploc bags
First, let me start by saying that I do believe in the leave no trace concept and adhere to it religiously. I am in no way suggesting that we should stop doing it. Far from it.
However…
In my everyday life, I often think about our planet and the mess we, the ’’SMART’’ human beings are leaving for future generations and how in only a few years (since the early 19-hundreds – that’s short in planet years) we’ve almost managed to completely choke the life out of it. Some people think climate changes are a hoax, I personally think it’s real. Who’s right? Well, lets wait a few years, we should find out soon enough. And honestly, in this instance, I hope I’m wrong.
Every day, I try to teach my children to respect the environment and to avoid producing unnecessary waste. One of my biggest pet peeves is our addiction to plastic. Can you see me coming a mile away? You’ve guessed it… Ziploc bags.
Backpackers, myself included, are always looking for ways to decrease their pack weight. Even the ones who don’t adhere to the UL concept do it. In order to do that, not only do we repackage our belongings and food in lighter and more manageable Ziploc bags, a lot of us even eat out of them to avoid washing dishes in the woods so not to contaminate anything. Then we carry everything back home and throw it in the garbage because by that time we get there, they’re too yucky to wash.
When throwing away packaging deemed incompatible with efficient backpack organisation and repackaging everything in Ziploc bags, we’re creating a lot more waste. We may not be leaving a trace on the trail but we sure are leaving a big one at home. I’ve been pondering on this for a while now, trying to find a viable solution. Buying food in bulk and making our own dehydrated trail food helps lowering the amount of waste at the source but no matter how we look at it, it still needs to be packaged to fit in our backpacks. Cloth bags are an option but they won't work with everything and they're not waterproof, another issue backpackers need to deal with on a regular basis.
Am I the only one worrying about this? I’m curious to see what other Whiteblaze members are doing to lower the amount of waste they produce. Are Ziploc bags unavoidable?
brewcrew1514
11-19-2016, 16:30
When you take them back home, you can always have the plastic bags recycled, right? That's what I generally do. That can help decrease the footprint.
Up to my understanding, ziploc bags are a speciality for the US. Reading through the posts here at WB I'm always wondering if you don't have simple plasic bags?
When you're concerned about plastic (and that makes so much sense) you still may use plastic, but simple bags without a ziploc whenever possible. The amount of plastic used for a ziploc sure is two or three times the amount needed for a simple bag of the same size.
Re-use is another keyword. Depending on the former content, you can reuse most plastic bags several times.
One thing we have here in Austria is a strict law that no waste can be deposited without having it treated thermally, read: All waste gets burned here (in huge plants having all this filter stuff). They produce electricity in these plants. And they ask you to collect all plastic separately, then they granulate it, press it into pellets and use the pellets as a oil/gas substitute in the steelworks industry.
Here in Austria plastic as a waste is so worthy that we (as a private household) needn't pay for it to be collected, its rather on the brink that we get paid for providing the plastic for the collector.
So, while we see plastic rather as an oil substitute and plastic waste as a raw material for the next usage, we still have the habit to avoid using plastic all too much, and to reuse the bags if possible.
MuddyWaters
11-19-2016, 17:21
A few ziplock bags is completely insignificant in the total amount of garbage per person generated by our consumer lifestyle.
Virtually everything made and sold, ends up in the landfill, or air, ground, or water , eventually.
Everything.
Once was a time when items were quality, lasted forever, passed down generations.
Today everything is cheap crap that lasts a short period of time, replaced by more cheap crap
Costs to dispose of garbage per month needs to be 10 x what it currently is to get people to change. Paying $400 instead of $40 would cause a paradigm shift real quick. Charge by the lb would work.
This is solveable. The truth is....no one really wants to. They want to pretend they want to by doing insignificant things. The real solution would involve significant changes to way of life and consumer goods.
DuneElliot
11-19-2016, 17:42
I think pretty much every town has a recycling scheme these days. Clean the Ziplocs and add them to any recycling bin you can, when you can. It's all we can do really, or burn them.
When you take them back home, you can always have the plastic bags recycled, right? That's what I generally do. That can help decrease the footprint.
In my area they won't recycle them if they're soiled, which most of them are when coming back from a hiking trip.
LoneStranger
11-19-2016, 18:19
Reduce and Reuse still apply even when Recycle doesn't. Do what you can to reduce the consumer packaging as you've already mentioned and reuse whenever you can. I dry a lot of my own meals and also purchase MH in cans rather than bags. The empty cans are recycled if I don't repurpose them. On trail the bags that I eat hot meals out of become trash, but snack bags and gallon zips used to organize are reused until they look ready to fall apart which is when they become the trash bag getting one final use.
Do what you can is my philosophy. Once you've done that there isn't much left to worry about.
Up to my understanding, ziploc bags are a speciality for the US.
When you're concerned about plastic (and that makes so much sense) you still may use plastic, but simple bags without a ziploc whenever possible. The amount of plastic used for a ziploc sure is two or three times the amount needed for a simple bag of the same size.
Re-use is another keyword. Depending on the former content, you can reuse most plastic bags several times.
Here in Austria plastic as a waste is so worthy that we (as a private household) needn't pay for it to be collected, its rather on the brink that we get paid for providing the plastic for the collector.
I'm in Canada but the situation here is very similar to that of the US. Looks like we in North America could learn a thing or two from Austria. I do use simple bags when keeping a good seal is not critical and I do reuse whenever possible. Actually most of the bags I use are recycled milk bags. They're about the same thickness as freezer rated Ziploc bags.
Moosling
11-19-2016, 19:58
My wife is really green conscious, I told her about this thread and she immediately recommended these. http://www.planetwiseinc.com/Planet_Wise_Clear_Snack_Sets_91_cat.html
Another option I have used in the past is just use grocery bags to hold and separate supplies and foodstuffs, I live in NC and at our local Harris teeter there is a recycling bin just for used grocery bags, in sure other grocery chains honor the same thing.
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cliffordbarnabus
11-19-2016, 23:40
what would render a ziplock un-washable? if it's super funky, you can always turn it inside-out and soak it in gray water. and then properly wash it.
also, don't forget that "recycle bins" are often just trash bins to make people feel better. there's reality. and there's what we hope is reality. sometimes, the world is hopeless.
My wife is really green conscious, I told her about this thread and she immediately recommended these. http://www.planetwiseinc.com/Planet_Wise_Clear_Snack_Sets_91_cat.html
Another option I have used in the past is just use grocery bags to hold and separate supplies and foodstuffs, I live in NC and at our local Harris teeter there is a recycling bin just for used grocery bags, in sure other grocery chains honor the same thing.
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Thanks for the link Moosling!
what would render a ziplock un-washable? if it's super funky, you can always turn it inside-out and soak it in gray water. and then properly wash it.
A Ziploc that's been soiled with garbage and then in a backpack unwashed for a few/many days becomes full of mold and bacteria that seeps into the plastic. Washing it properly is really tough and even then, the smell often doesn't go away.
Odd Man Out
11-20-2016, 00:25
I too try to minimize waste for the sake of the environment. I have not used Freezer Bag Cooking, partly to keep waste to a minimum. However, in general I don't worry too much as the environmental impact of backpacking is miniscule compared to many hobbies. Several years ago I took my daughter on her first backpacking trip. A two night weekend trip. At the end of the trip she posed for a picture proudly displaying our garbage bag for two people for two days in a quart zip bag.
theinfamousj
11-20-2016, 01:27
As a vegetarian, though there are now more options for me than used to be, I am in the habit from the old days of having to make my own meals.
I don't mind doing dishes and have a snow stake to properly dig my sump hole. Mini compost! (I suppose that if there were meat it would be a different story of trace I am leaving.)
So I don't FBC. I do rehydrate, but in my pot.
And the thing that carries most of those dehydrated ingredients? Waxed paper. Glassine envelopes. Renewable things like that. Also, handily burnable for those moments you need a campfire TV pick-me-up. Oh, and compostable.
From what I am reading, it appears that the omnivorous solution is to actually do KP/dishes rather than FBC (clean and recyclable/reusable ziplocs would result) and to not pack in ziplocs to begin with. There was a time before them and sometimes old technology is more environmentally friendly than conventional convenience.
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theinfamousj
11-20-2016, 01:29
Also brown paper lunch sacks. Cannot forget those! Got one full of lentils, one full of black rice, and one full of TVP right now ready to go on my next trip.
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Infinitely more impacting to the health of the planet is the harm of human centric behavior which includes rampant exponentially increasing human population growth. Human centricity recognizes humanity being above and apart from a larger interconnected ecological and universal whole. It excludes humanity as being part of the web of life. Runaway human centric behavior has done more harm to the planet and sets the stage for ultimately turning on each other. It is akin to locust swarm behavior.
As an environmentalist I'm not fully on board with demonizing of plastics. It's easy to do though since plastic garbage, - bags, bottles, netting, ropes, fencing, etc - is pervasively visible to the public. In some aspects plastics and polymers can actually be more environmentally friendly compared to some comparable materials if you look at the impact in a broader sense - up and downstream.. The cause of plastic pollution as implicated is not as much in plastics in itself but self absorbed species absorbed unenlightened disconnected human centric behavior in use of plastic. I'm no darling of the plastics industry though.
Reducing consumption society wide by learning to question it, although counter U.S. culture, has much greater positive impact to the health of the planet than stressing over Ziplocs. Easy enough to reduce Ziplock use and pollution by reusing and recycling while reducing purchases of heavily packaged highly processed products, especially food, in the first place. Buying in bulk from bulk bins where the product is storing in recycled and reused paper, plastic, metal, glass, tins, etc is a another step in the right direction.
While conscientious consumption of plastics and fighting the good fight of educating ecological personal accountability should be appreciated myopic focusing on Ziplocs is akin to reducing overall freshwater usage by focusing efforts on residential usage which accounts for less than 10% through low consumption shower heads and faucets while ignoring the agricultural sector's usage of about 70 % and industry 20%. If one wants to attack a problem isn't it rational to focus efforts where there exists the greatest opportunity for desired outcome?
True, the impact of what little waste hikers create is very small compared to what normal civilisation life does.
But this still does not exclude hikers from any effort in reducing their waste!
Its very simple:
What you don't carry at all, never will find its way into the litter.
Dont carry TP, so you dont need a set of extra Ziplocs to carry it out. You save yourself and the environment in a double way.
Dont carry paper handkerchiefs, dont carry wipes. Try to use reusable containers/sacks for as many packing purposes as possible.
Reuse plastic items/sacks as many times as possible, reuse the strong food sacks, if empty, for lower grade use (thrash sacks).
Act as if plastic, especially a good strong plastic bag, is a worthy and valueable item.
...
As an environmentalist I'm not fully on board with demonizing of plastics. It's easy to do though since plastic garbage, - bags, bottles, netting, ropes, fencing, etc - is pervasively visible to the public. In some aspects plastics and polymers can actually be more environmentally friendly compared to some comparable materials if you look at the impact in a broader sense - up and downstream.. The cause of plastic pollution as implicated is not as much in plastics in itself but self absorbed species absorbed unenlightened disconnected human centric behavior in use of plastic. I'm no darling of the plastics industry though...
In the Middle East where I do most of my hikes plastic is a real killer.
Find any carcasse of a dead camel (and you will find "some"), it has a huge brick of tightly packed plastic inside where the stomac used to be. Stray camels chew at everything they can find (as do goats), plastic bags usually have residues of food and really get eaten.
Thats only the camel side of the story - divers tell horrible things about sea animals and plastic.
I'm pretty sure the very same is true all over the world (the Third World especially).
There is nothing wrong with plastic if you put it to good use. Nothing wrong with plastic clothes, plastic containers and such, you use for years or even decades. Hiking without plastic in a wider sense of the word is close to impossible.
But lets reduce the usage of "throwaway"-plastic as far as possible.
MuddyWaters
11-20-2016, 08:02
In the Middle East where I do most of my hikes plastic is a real killer.
Find any carcasse of a dead camel (and you will find "some"), it has a huge brick of tightly packed plastic inside where the stomac used to be. Stray camels chew at everything they can find (as do goats), plastic bags usually have residues of food and really get eaten.
Thats only the camel side of the story - divers tell horrible things about sea animals and plastic.
.
The amount of plastic and litter is astounding in poor areas. plastic sheeting is used to retain limited water in ground in order to grow food in desert climate. the soil contains plastic pieces and it blows with wind everwhere. Entire countries live on bottled water, throwing the bottles everywhere. Roadsides coated literally with plastic.
Offshore
11-20-2016, 08:16
Yes and no. Most municipal programs won't take them as they tend to clog the automated stream separators, but it seems most supermarkets have a bin for plastic bag (technically plastic film) recycling. The issue is that they need to be clean and dry. Tossing in wet or dirty bags will cause the batch to be discarded, so its better to put a dirty plastic bag in the trash than in a bag recycling bin. You could always rinse it out and let it dry first. Remember the preferred approach is to reduce their use in the first place, reuse it if you can, or recycle it if you can't.
cmoulder
11-20-2016, 08:43
For years I have been reusing the plastic bags inside cereal boxes and other extremely durable snack food bags such as those used for the 'gourmet' potato/veggie chips and the like. And there are MANY other similar bags such as those that pistachios and other nuts are packaged in. They are much more durable and, of course, block food odors far better than polyethylene ziplocs. I just fold over and then roll the tops down and put a rubber band around the bag.
YoungBloodOnTrail
11-20-2016, 08:59
ziplock bags are recyclable
saltysack
11-20-2016, 10:49
what would render a ziplock un-washable? if it's super funky, you can always turn it inside-out and soak it in gray water. and then properly wash it.
also, don't forget that "recycle bins" are often just trash bins to make people feel better. there's reality. and there's what we hope is reality. sometimes, the world is hopeless.
Sad but true...
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Generally speaking we (Austrians) do quite OK as far as recycling goes.
But when it comes to plastic bags, all efforts fail and they end up in the burner.
Usually in the plastic industry there is such a huge amount of first-hand leftover that is even more than they can regranulate and add to new raw plastic, so nobody bothers to manually pick through (ziploc) bag collections.
(sorry to let every green household eagerly sorting out different kind of plastic, washing bags and cleaning styrol cups, know - there is no plant recycling this material at an industrial level - if there is any, its only for the show of it).
If anybody wants to preserve nature and spare raw materials (and who would not like to?) its best to do it yourself, inside your circle of life, within your own knowledge and limited resources, just the way already many have stated above:
- avoid
- re-use
- thrash only at the end of the lifecycle
- to use top-quality that really lasts long helps a lot for all of the above
When talking about environmentally related topics I refer back to Aldo Leopold
“But wherever the truth may lie, this much is crystal-clear: our bigger-and-better society is now like a hypochondriac, so obsessed with its own economic health as to have lost the capacity to remain healthy. . . . Nothing could be more salutary at this stage than a little healthy contempt for a plethora of material blessings.”
― Aldo Leopold (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43828.Aldo_Leopold)
“We abuse land because we see it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.”
― Aldo Leopold (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43828.Aldo_Leopold)
A bit specifically off topic but related is raising ecological awareness of the impact of high meat consumption, particularly beef, employing common industrialized modern mega farming techniques and merry go round toxic electronic consumption with designed short life obsolescence.
Economic models that rely on their health by promoting and depending on ever increasing consumption coupled with the world view that humanity is apart and above the larger web of life are bound to encourage wasteful behavior and environmental havoc.
Traillium
11-20-2016, 19:05
When talking about environmentally related topics I refer back to Aldo Leopold
“But wherever the truth may lie, this much is crystal-clear: our bigger-and-better society is now like a hypochondriac, so obsessed with its own economic health as to have lost the capacity to remain healthy. . . . Nothing could be more salutary at this stage than a little healthy contempt for a plethora of material blessings.”
― Aldo Leopold (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43828.Aldo_Leopold)
“We abuse land because we see it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect.”
― Aldo Leopold (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43828.Aldo_Leopold)
A bit specifically off topic but related is raising ecological awareness of the impact of high meat consumption, particularly beef, employing common industrialized modern mega farming techniques and merry go round toxic electronic consumption with designed short life obsolescence.
Economic models that rely on their health by promoting and depending on ever increasing consumption coupled with the world view that humanity is apart and above the larger web of life are bound to encourage wasteful behavior and environmental havoc.
Yep — an uncomfortable and too-true view …
I knew someone once that used to wash ziploc bags and reuse them. The bags never looked clean when she was done washing and drying them...instead of being perfectly clear they looked a bit cloudy. People take things a bit far sometimes...though if you really view this as a problem, perhaps there are a few things you could do to avoid using plastic bags or to at least recycle...
--use plastic grocery bags...they are recyclable...just tie them in a knot to seal them...only drawback is they aren't resealable if you rip them open...knots are hard to get undone with these bags. I haven't bought a trash bag in more than 10 years because I use these as trash bags.
--use paper bags for dry items and put all the paper bags in a larger, reusable waterproof bag.