View Full Version : OR helium vs alpine bivy
sethd513
11-22-2016, 22:38
I'm looking to get a bivy. I do plan on using my 8x10 silnylon tarp over it as this will be a winter set up. It seems like the alpine is much more robust then the helium which might be a great worse case senerio. I don't have any bivy experience but with the learning curve I will be adding a vapor barrier suit to help with moisture in my insulation. What would you guys do and why? Thanks
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sethd513
11-23-2016, 06:28
Well our winter tent weighs 6 lbs. I like to tarp camp but not confident in only a tarp alone in the winter. If the snow was deep enough yea I could dig out a sweet little hut but I feel with a bivy my camp spots will open up a bit. I can't wrap my head around how a bivy alone in winter or rain will fit my style which is why I'd take a tarp. Also I'm assuming for long day trips in spots like the whites if something was ever to happen at least I would have a shelter that I could pack and be out of the elements worse case senerio. I'm leaning towards the helium as it's lighter and since I'd be bringing a tarp it's not as bomb proof as the gortex but we've had fair luck with pertex shield stuff so idk
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http://sectionhiker.com/a-beginners-guide-to-waterproof-bivy-sacks-how-to-choose/
Alpine Bivy was designed for above tree line alpine climbers. In the Whites, it makes more sense to get below tree line and camp out. You don't want to be above tree line when the wind is blowing 130mph, bivy or not and no tarp is going to stay in winds like that. So Helium Bivy and get out of dodge when its bad weather.
sethd513
11-23-2016, 12:55
Will I get the same heat retention out of the pertex since it's a little thinner, or any at that matter
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Its not an insulating layer so I don't think it matters.
sethd513
11-23-2016, 15:00
Does anyone know how well the pertex holds up comparably to gortex from OR?
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Do you need a 3 layer bivy with a 8x10 tarp ? I say no . Have you considered weight? Bivyes sometimes have a condensation issue. I would just get a very light one and use it only when I had to. But HYOH .
thom
sethd513
11-23-2016, 15:18
Do you need a 3 layer bivy with a 8x10 tarp ? I say no . Have you considered weight? Bivyes sometimes have a condensation issue. I would just get a very light one and use it only when I had to. But HYOH .
thom
That's what I'm thinking. I'm assuming I'd feel to tight without the tarp. Plus the tarp and helium weigh in the same if not an oz lighter then just the alpine
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http://www.borahgear.com/chestbivy.html
6.5 oz
sethd513
11-23-2016, 21:07
http://www.borahgear.com/chestbivy.html
6.5 oz
That seems a little to fragile for me to learn in. I was fortunate enough to get the helium for 61$ I'll either love it or hate it. And if I go another rout I'll probably try either eVent or Cuban as I've had a lot of luck with both fabrics.
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sethd513
12-12-2016, 13:37
Ok so I went with the helium bivy, and tested it out last weekend. It was 13* out and I set up shop on my deck. I was also trying a vapor barrier suit from warmlite which is awesome. I used my 40* bag and my heavy winter rab coat and jw down pants. I was comfortable except for loosing anything I was trying to get to (phone,mits whatever) but that's something I'll have to get use to. My only question is no matter what I do will I always have frost on the inside of the bivy? I brought the stuff inside and my bag, coat and everything was dry but bivy was a little damp. I did have the top open all night. If I want to protect my bag from that do I need another vb liner over it? Or will it just happen on that layer
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..Alpine Bivy was designed for above tree line alpine climbers...
This
Do you need a 3 layer bivy with a 8x10 tarp ? I say no . Have you considered weight? Bivyes sometimes have a condensation issue. I would just get a very light one and use it only when I had to...
This
...with the tarp if you're including a tarp in this winter shelter
You're call but I see both bivies as stand alone shelters appealing not only to but largely to climbers. These are WP bivies as opposed to WR bivies that have a higher propensity for vapor transfer. Think a true WP Rain jacket verse wind jacket with a DWR.
If you're not climbing staying on ledges, in abrasive environments, etc go with the Pertex Shield+ 2.5. See the Helium option as lighter wt and perhaps less durable. I am not overwhelmingly impressed with air permeability of Pertex 2.5L for a fully enclosed WP bivy so not surprise hearing "no matter what I do will I always have frost on the inside of the bivy?" And you even were wearing a vapor barrier suit from warmlite, heavy winter ran(?, rain?) coat and jw(?) down pants, and had the top open all night.
"I brought the stuff inside and my bag, coat and everything was dry but bivy was a little damp"
Clarify Don't know what this bivy was a little damp means? when in the morning? when you set up? on the inside of the bivy?
"If I want to protect my bag from that do I need another vb liner over it? Or will it just happen on that layer"
Clarify??? Do you mean the top of your sleeping bag frosted up or was damp in the morn? FWIW, this is getting to be a complex system comparative to a tent. What are you trying to achieve? If you're doing a fully WP stand alone bivy, also doing a VBL suit dedicated to wearing in your sleep, and than adding a large tarp to the system???? I'm not seeing where you're going?
i liked what Spectator said on a BPL thread:
"There's a couple issues with Pertex Shield Rene. One, the PU coating is on the inside, but the DWR on the outside is a traditional one, hence is not truly durable. Once that comes off, the breathablity goes down. Two, it's not that breathable to begin with even with a brand new DWR. I want/need a fabric that has a truly durable water resistant outer coating, and much higher air permeability. Crucial in winter time, when water vapor can actually freeze within and stop up a membrane and thus really decrease the ability for it to move moisture."
https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/108562/
sethd513
12-12-2016, 18:53
This
This
...with the tarp if you're including a tarp in this winter shelter
You're call but I see both bivies as stand alone shelters appealing not only to but largely to climbers. These are WP bivies as opposed to WR bivies that have a higher propensity for vapor transfer. Think a true WP Rain jacket verse wind jacket with a DWR.
If you're not climbing staying on ledges, in abrasive environments, etc go with the Pertex Shield+ 2.5. See the Helium option as lighter wt and perhaps less durable. I am not overwhelmingly impressed with air permeability of Pertex 2.5L for a fully enclosed WP bivy so not surprise hearing "no matter what I do will I always have frost on the inside of the bivy?" And you even were wearing a vapor barrier suit from warmlite, heavy winter ran(?, rain?) coat and jw(?) down pants, and had the top open all night.
"I brought the stuff inside and my bag, coat and everything was dry but bivy was a little damp"
Clarify Don't know what this bivy was a little damp means? when in the morning? when you set up? on the inside of the bivy?
"If I want to protect my bag from that do I need another vb liner over it? Or will it just happen on that layer"
Clarify??? Do you mean the top of your sleeping bag frosted up or was damp in the morn? FWIW, this is getting to be a complex system comparative to a tent. What are you trying to achieve? If you're doing a fully WP stand alone bivy, also doing a VBL suit dedicated to wearing in your sleep, and than adding a large tarp to the system???? I'm not seeing where you're going?
I set up at 930pm in the bivy at 10. I staid out till 4 am.
The bivy was damp front noticeable frost build up on the inside, More so then on the outside. By no means did it take more then about an hour or two to dry in the basement so it wasn't much at all.
There was not a stich of frost or dampness on or as far as I could tell inside any of my down gear. Only on the inside of the bivy and very little outside.
I sleep very warm. My last winter trip I froze out my bag with sweat. Woke up ice all over it. The vapor barrier suit was to remedy soaking out my insulation hiking and sleeping. My wife had a bad mountain bike accident this fall so the bivy is for solo winter overnights without her. The only reason to add the tarp to this is to remedy me feeling like I have some sort of space, I'd assume purely a mental thing if anything. I'd prefer not to bring the tarp because it's one more thing to deal with. But in my head I see myself having more of a shelter if I needed it.
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Every time I read accounts of multi part conglomerations of stuff I have to wonder...
What if you had a decent tent, TarpTent Notch comes to mind, a quality sleeping bag, WM Versalite or equal, and a NeoAir Xtherm?
Just wondering.
Wayne
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sethd513
12-12-2016, 22:36
Well I am using a xtherm, yes a dedicated winter bag would be sweet but if I can stretch my 40* quilt then I'll def stretch the 20* quilt and for sure both layered together. Also I've wanted the could burst for her I and the dog. But maybe I'm not taking this the right way. I like having tons of different gear and having the right gear for the situation is huge.
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Ok. I missed the 20 degree quilt.
Frost inside bicycle: Phsyics 101. Water vapor condenses on the first cold surface. In your case, it was cold enough to freeze.
The good news: the VBL suit worked or you would have had frost in your down items.
Wayne
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Stupid autocorrect.
Bivi not bicycle.
Wayne
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sethd513
12-13-2016, 06:05
Ok. I missed the 20 degree quilt.
Frost inside bicycle: Phsyics 101. Water vapor condenses on the first cold surface. In your case, it was cold enough to freeze.
The good news: the VBL suit worked or you would have had frost in your down items.
Wayne
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I used the 40* quilt for this night. Before the vb suit I gaurentee I would of been in the 20* quilt and I'm sure all the down items would of been wet. Even my down beanie wasn't the least bit wet.
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Did you see where Spectator was going on that BPL thread and some of the other comments in relation to what you experienced?
FWIW, as one who uses bivies throughout the yr:
First, if I do use a WP stand alone bivy it is exactly that - stand alone. I'm not using it with a tarp. I desire as high a MVTR as I can get in the top fabric. With the OR helium PertexShield + 2.5 L MVTR is 7000 g/m2/24 H. I can do better, much better with eVent as top WP bivy fabric with as much a MVTR of 15,000 - 25,000 g/m2/24 H. This starts me off with a 2-3.5 X greater ability to move vapor than the Pertex 2.5L in the OR Helium. This has POTENTIAL for less condensation and vapor clogging up the fabric when it freezes as it passes from inside to outside the bivy. FWIW, the only WP stand alone bivy I currently use for backpacking is a MLD eVent Soul w/ a 3 L eVent top fabric. However, being TLC UL sensitive I'm considering the even more breathable and lighter wt but less durable 2L eVent top fabric cuben fiber bottom FKT eVent version. Cost is $$$ compared to the OR Alpine or Helium.
You're using a tarp w/ a stand alone WP fully enclosed bivy. If this works for you great but it becomes redundant and overly heavy IMHO especially compared to the advantages of a UL lighter wt roomier perhaps less bulky tent that can be winterized
Second, which is my preferred winter backpacking bivy scenario, is a UL WR highly breathable bivy combined with a small UL Cuben fiber tarp. I've experienced much less icing/frosting up with this type of bivy in winter than fully WP fully enclosed WP bivies.
There are physics involved between outside and inside the bivy temp differences that get involved but that's where I start from.
sethd513
12-13-2016, 16:15
I know eVent is a much better material. I was able to get this bivy for 61$ to try out. Thank you for the specifics. I plan on an event bivy in the future if I can find one with a hoop possibly
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sethd513
12-13-2016, 17:06
Any tips on a wr bivy that you've found works well?
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sethd513
01-01-2017, 17:35
Little update. Spent 10 hours in the my helium bivy 2 nights ago up in the whites. Next to me was my cousin in his or advanced bivy. Needless to say mine was an ice box compared to his. I'm not sure how much the foot box vent would of helped me as the loft alone in my quilt set up takes a lot of room. It was just around 0 or a pinch lower maybe -3 but then the winds were howling. Weather was saying between -20 and -25 with the wind. Honestly a tarp would of been more of a pain for me then anything.
Did the helium work. Of course it was great. Warm and protective. Went to bed with wet feet woke up with dry ones. I'm not sure how wet my my quilts really got as to my eyes and touch at 4 am they were dry except for the foot box. I wrapped the outside of both quilts with a sleeping bag liner and that was frozen solid. Getting home and unpacking 12 hours later everything I had was wet since it was a stuff and go very early. For multi night trips zipped up tight I may need something else. But there is nothing like sleeping in a bivy in 75 mph winds. Bad a$$
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170101/5feba79fd37aa97159d45d144e3e0d09.jpg
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Any tips on a wr bivy that you've found works well?
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Overall, I like the MLD Lite Soul or Superlight WR bivy. I'm on my fourth after having one stolen after 100's of nights, losing one stored on the outside of my pack, and wearing one through.
You dug yourself a wedge on the platform. Neat pic.
Not that you needed one but I see no ground cloth.
sethd513
01-01-2017, 18:36
You dug yourself a wedge on the platform. Neat pic.
Not that you needed one but I see no ground cloth.
I had a 2 mil poly cloth that I brought with me. The platform was even enough with snow I felt confident without using it.
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sethd513
02-21-2017, 13:04
Any thoughts on how I can cut in a waterproof zipper at the foot box with a guy line at the top of the footbox and adding a pinch of bug netting. This thing needs to breath
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Dogwood - is there a good source for the MVTR and HH ratings on various fabrics?
sethd513
02-23-2017, 17:57
I reached out to OR and they don't stock material so they can't send me anything. I kinda scratched my head then realized who I was emailing. I'm assuming this will have to be a rip stop by the roll order or something along those lines.
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