View Full Version : Leave No Trace
johnupton318
11-30-2016, 16:33
Hey everyone. I just wanted to start the discussion about Leave No Trace Principles for the 2017 thruhikers. As a 2016 Nobo, I quickly discovered how many people had never even heard of Leave No Trace, and this definitely plays a large role (aided by overcrowding), in the sour reputation the southern section gets during the springtime.
I invite everyone to write another LNT principle below or ask any questions that you may have.
Some important ones:
Bury your poop (if not using a privy)
Use the bathroom away from water sources.
Don't kill anything living (plants too!)
Take only pictures, leave only footprints.
These are some basic guidelines, but there are many more things to be aware of whether tenting or hanmocking, while hanging bear bags, cleaning after dinner, etc.
trailmercury
11-30-2016, 16:59
Camp in established areas/sites (very low impact stealth camping is usually permitted however)
do not create new fire pits/rings
If making a fire, burn only dead and downed trees.
"Pack it in Pack it out"
If there is mud on the trail and dry areas adjacent to the trail, suck it up and trudge on through the mud
Just a few off the top of my head!
Oventoasted
11-30-2016, 17:23
I think the hikers who do not know what the "Leave No Trace" practice is will jot be on forums like this. A lot of the hikers i came accross that were ignorant to it were either just being spontaneous to walk in the woods or just trying to follow a friend who didnt give them any advice.
Most may just need to be enlightened to LNT while they are on the trail in a tactful and respectful manner. :)
[QUOTE=Oventoasted;2108291]I think the hikers who do not know what the "Leave No Trace" practice is will jot be on forums like this.
[/QUOTE
Sorry,IwasRespondingAndsuddenlyRealizedMySpaceBarD oesNotWorkInTheseForums??What'sUpWithThat?
Huh? Space bar doesnt work when responding with quotes? Weird.
Anyway, how about hikers with dogs? LNT applies to fido too, last thing I want to step in at 5am is... yeah. Cigarette buts? Cans and bottles (and other not so flammable items) in fire rings?
Starchild
11-30-2016, 19:25
I would like to state during my 2013 thru, and that was not my first exposure to LNT, I found the LNT info (shelters, privies, etc.) to be demeaning, insulting and belittling. Basically saying that I am the problem and the less I mess up, which I will, the less we need to clean up. I had a very bitter taste for LNT from that, as I was raised on the principal of land stewardship, basically we are stewards of the land for all that will follow, we have the power to make their trip more or less enjoyable by our actions.
To me LNT is presented as rules and regulations and we are the problem and are tolerated.
Land stewardship is be good to each other and nature and we are the solution and we are welcome.
I teach both, LNT because it is the standard policy and land stewardship because it empowers people t make a real difference.
Oventoasted
11-30-2016, 19:39
I would like to state during my 2013 thru, and that was not my first exposure to LNT, I found the LNT info (shelters, privies, etc.) to be demeaning, insulting and belittling. Basically saying that I am the problem and the less I mess up, which I will, the less we need to clean up. I had a very bitter taste for LNT from that, as I was raised on the principal of land stewardship, basically we are stewards of the land for all that will follow, we have the power to make their trip more or less enjoyable by our actions.
To me LNT is presented as rules and regulations and we are the problem and are tolerated.
Land stewardship is be good to each other and nature and we are the solution and we are welcome.
I teach both, LNT because it is the standard policy and land stewardship because it empowers people t make a real difference.
+1 to this!
Even with friends it hard to convey the LNT method without coming off a little pretentious or belittling like you said. Im always for a more empowering method because it is a lot more effective for others to get on board with. even though both have the same goal.
"The Three Tiered Training StructureThe three-tiered structure of Leave No Trace training includes Master Educator Courses, Trainer Courses, and Awareness Workshops. Master Educator Courses represent the most advanced level of training, and after completion, people go on to become Leave No Trace Master Educators. The Master Educators, in turn, teach people the second level, the Trainer Course, upon completion of which people become Leave No Trace Trainers. The Master Educators and Trainers both, are then eligible to conduct our third level of training, called Awareness Workshops, which are designed for the general public to learn, practice and promote Leave No Trace."
Yeah... I dont know WHO these people are, but they sure are masters at complicating something as simple as common sense as well as just plain (IMHO) bat sheet crazy!. I'm guessing there is a money trial to be followed.
"I'm guessing there is a money trial to be followed."
*^ trail
Traveler
12-01-2016, 08:24
Oy .........
I would like to state during my 2013 thru, and that was not my first exposure to LNT, I found the LNT info (shelters, privies, etc.) to be demeaning, insulting and belittling. Basically saying that I am the problem and the less I mess up, which I will, the less we need to clean up. I had a very bitter taste for LNT from that,...
To me LNT is presented as rules and regulations and we are the problem and are tolerated...
I'm sorry to hear that is what you have chosen to take away from LNT Principles.
LNT is not presented legalistically as rules or regulations intentionally or implicitly by those trained to teach it. LNT principles are best perceived as guidelines or principles to consider regarding our behavior rather than legislating any policy similar to how a law is legislated. LNT includes guidelines or principles that encourage ethical behavior that raises awareness of each human individual's recreational impact. I think we all can agree humans have impacts on the environment and to each other.
The aims of both land stewardship and LNT principles empower people to make a real difference. The two are mutually compatible.
The success story that both teach can perhaps best be described as that they encourage humans to think outside themselves perceiving a larger ecological whole. And, that they lead to less mindless human centric behavior.
rocketsocks
12-01-2016, 15:30
"The Three Tiered Training Structure
The three-tiered structure of Leave No Trace training includes Master Educator Courses, Trainer Courses, and Awareness Workshops. Master Educator Courses represent the most advanced level of training, and after completion, people go on to become Leave No Trace Master Educators. The Master Educators, in turn, teach people the second level, the Trainer Course, upon completion of which people become Leave No Trace Trainers. The Master Educators and Trainers both, are then eligible to conduct our third level of training, called Awareness Workshops, which are designed for the general public to learn, practice and promote Leave No Trace."
Yeah... I dont know WHO these people are, but they sure are masters at complicating something as simple as common sense as well as just plain (IMHO) bat sheet crazy!. I'm guessing there is a money trial to be followed.last year there was a thread here asking people to visit a LNT facebook page...so I did, or I tried anyway, it was a private page not open to the public. When I inquired about this I it no response...that makes no sense to me, at all.
rocketsocks
12-01-2016, 15:31
last year there was a thread here asking people to visit a LNT facebook page...so I did, or I tried anyway, it was a private page not open to the public. When I inquired about this I it no response...that makes no sense to me, at all.I got no response!
"The Three Tiered Training Structure
The three-tiered structure of Leave No Trace training includes Master Educator Courses, Trainer Courses, and Awareness Workshops. Master Educator Courses represent the most advanced level of training, and after completion, people go on to become Leave No Trace Master Educators. The Master Educators, in turn, teach people the second level, the Trainer Course, upon completion of which people become Leave No Trace Trainers. The Master Educators and Trainers both, are then eligible to conduct our third level of training, called Awareness Workshops, which are designed for the general public to learn, practice and promote Leave No Trace."
Yeah... I dont know WHO these people are, but they sure are masters at complicating something as simple as common sense as well as just plain (IMHO) bat sheet crazy!. I'm guessing there is a money trial to be followed.
What is common sense to you may not be so common or sensible to another. Look around you and look at your own actions. Countless examples demonstrate that even if people know what to do they don't always do whet they know they should be doing. LNT aims to educate and make people aware. Sometimes, people need to be reminded to do what they know what to do. That's also raising awareness. Just because we hear something that we know we should be doing that does not mean we always do it.
Full disclosure question Dogwood. Are you associated in any way with LNT.org, Leave No Trace non profit, or Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics?
Full disclosure question Dogwood. Are you associated in any way with LNT.org, Leave No Trace non profit, or Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics?
Yes. Enforcing and promoting LNT principles have allowed me to live in a mountain retreat gated estate with my own stocked fishing pond, game reserve, and being chauffeur driven to every TH in a limousine. :)
No official association Gritty. My current position on promoting LNT Principles arose out of concerns for human centric hike in a bubble self absorbed mentalities I was observing in abundance. It also arose out of concerns and hastily made conclusions similar to Starchilds and yours. I then researched LNT goals more deeply and personally spoke to many LNT Trainers to gain a better understanding of LNT and address my previous conclusions. It was I who had taken things out of context or mistakenly came to false conclusions because I had failed to understand LNT Principles and aims. I am considering joining the cult of LNT though to seek being a LNT Trainer. I do promote the concept behind the main goal of LNT despite the term Leave No Trace being an oxymoron from a practical perspective.
Thank you so much for asking rather than assuming and allowing your consideration to clarify.
Thanks for the clarification. I cant wait to see LNT.org's 990 for 2016... Good luck with the preaching.
Thanks for the clarification. I cant wait to see LNT.org's 990 for 2016... Good luck with the preaching.
If you act now responding to my limited time offer being one of the first 100 to call for two convenient easy payments of $18.95 I'll send you my ultra deluxe personally autographed faux gold leaf margin embossed compact UL in waterproof ink printed on waterproof paper a list of Thy Holy All That Is Divine 7 LNT Principles appropriate for enclosing in a UL cuben fiber wallet to carry with you always so the 7 Principles are always there to remind you what a good boy to be. AHHH MEN. :D
HYOH
PYOP Preach Your Own Pomposity. Like wise peace be with you as you do your own preaching.
We all can live together as one big shiny peoples....joyously spreading the good word of LNT and filling our pockets. :-?
Yes. Enforcing and promoting LNT principles have allowed me to live in a mountain retreat gated estate with my own stocked fishing pond, game reserve, and being chauffeur driven to every TH in a limousine. :)
No official association Gritty. My current position on promoting LNT Principles arose out of concerns for human centric hike in a bubble self absorbed mentalities I was observing in abundance. It also arose out of concerns and hastily made conclusions similar to Starchilds and yours. I then researched LNT goals more deeply and personally spoke to many LNT Trainers to gain a better understanding of LNT and address my previous conclusions. It was I who had taken things out of context or mistakenly came to false conclusions because I had failed to understand LNT Principles and aims. I am considering joining the cult of LNT though to seek being a LNT Trainer. I do promote the concept behind the main goal of LNT despite the term Leave No Trace being an oxymoron from a practical perspective.
Thank you so much for asking rather than assuming and allowing your consideration to clarify.
Enforcing?
Starchild
12-02-2016, 10:22
I'm sorry to hear that is what you have chosen to take away from LNT Principles. ...
Hi Dogwood, I understand what you are saying and agree. What I was trying to relay in my post is LNT has an image problem with many new hikers. I was relaying how I was exposed to LNT during my AT thru.
For newer hikers, just exposed to LNT on trail by posted literature and those who are more exposed to LNT willing to speak out (not any awareness classes), even though LNT is guidelines, it is viewed as rules - this is what they take away and are turned off by it.
This is view is further enforced by other, more experienced hikers who know LNT, because they often state it as rules, and often in a 'holier than thou' accusatory manner, earning then the term 'LNT nazi's' and that LNT is a religion to them. These people do more to harm LNT image and would be better off keeping their mouth shut till they learn land stewardship and what it really means. It is working together, and not accusing, not shoving guidelines in someone's face as if it were rules in stone handing down by God.
Finally I have heard it said that even the name LNT is a impossible standard to reach, we are going to leave some trace just because we are there, even if is footprints. So we are always behind, always a problem, and never shown to be a solution.
Combining LNT with land stewardship shows the reason and origin of LNT and greatly helps hikers trained in both to relay LNT in a much more positive way, since the underlying principles of LNT are placed as primary and original (predating LNT), and places LNT correctly as a guideline, and the heart is the origin. It also helps when a situation comes up beyond the guidelines for LNT.
Be a role model for others, carry out ANY trash you find wherever you find it. I went out with a guide last y (Blue Ridge Hiking) and that's what he did for three days.
"...carry out ANY trash you find wherever you find it..." .... "Wherever"? .... I do admire your intention Lear, and please, dont take this as a personal attack, but, nobel sounding as your post is, it is not always realistic. Case in point, yesterday I hiked a 15 mile section of the Florida Trail that took me through the Osceola National Forest. The trail was pristine until I got within 100 yards of the Cobb Camp Campground which is loaded at this time of year with Florida Trail hikers, hunters, weekend tent campers, and full time transient tent campers. The 100 or so yards of the trail closest to the campground was littered with toilet paper adorned with .... yeah. No attempt whatsoever at digging a cat hole, not attempt whatsoever at going a respectful distance off the trail, not attempt whatsoever at "packing it out". Sorry, there is no way in HELL I am picking that up (10 or 12 different piles, some of it still steaming fresh ) and packing it 100 yards PAST THE CAMP GROUND PROVIDED PORTA POTTIES to the camp ground provided trash receptacles! Yeah... perhaps this is a "project" our friend Dogwood may want to explore. Come to Florida and teach these Bud Lite swilling rednecks how to properly poop in the woods, Dogwood!
Hi Dogwood, I understand what you are saying and agree. What I was trying to relay in my post is LNT has an image problem with many new hikers. I was relaying how I was exposed to LNT during my AT thru.
For newer hikers, just exposed to LNT on trail by posted literature and those who are more exposed to LNT willing to speak out (not any awareness classes), even though LNT is guidelines, it is viewed as rules - this is what they take away and are turned off by it.
This is view is further enforced by other, more experienced hikers who know LNT, because they often state it as rules, and often in a 'holier than thou' accusatory manner, earning then the term 'LNT nazi's' and that LNT is a religion to them. These people do more to harm LNT image and would be better off keeping their mouth shut till they learn land stewardship and what it really means. It is working together, and not accusing, not shoving guidelines in someone's face as if it were rules in stone handing down by God.
Finally I have heard it said that even the name LNT is a impossible standard to reach, we are going to leave some trace just because we are there, even if is footprints. So we are always behind, always a problem, and never shown to be a solution.
Combining LNT with land stewardship shows the reason and origin of LNT and greatly helps hikers trained in both to relay LNT in a much more positive way, since the underlying principles of LNT are placed as primary and original (predating LNT), and places LNT correctly as a guideline, and the heart is the origin. It also helps when a situation comes up beyond the guidelines for LNT.
Great post. Well said. Nice clarification of intent and expression of deeper observations without a contentious self righteous or imposing attitude. Thank you for engaging in give and take conversation where parties are adding to the breadth of the topic. Fresh air. :) ;)
LNT is a world of it's own. " carrying out ANY trash you find wherever you find it," is a bit absolute. My intention was to introduce something that people can do to make the trail a better" place for everyone and to encourage other to do the same. I probably wouldn't tidy up around a camp ground in FL and I doubt the aforementioned guide would either.
Main point is that there are people out there who are picking up after others without being told and that this behavior is probably the best way to encourage others to respect a communal trail in the wilderness. It certainly made an IMPACT on me. :-?
jekerdud
12-07-2016, 02:16
Don't kill anything living (plants too!)
Except ticks. I am completely fine with killing every one of those that I catch on me. Mice might be a close second.
I don't see how it's that hard for people to follow. Pocket, or bag, your trash (and cigarette butts for the smokers) throw it away in town, bury your poop, don't chop down anything that is still living. Not complicated, people.
Another Kevin
12-07-2016, 11:11
I try to set a good example for LNT behaviour, and have pretty much internalized the LNT message for a long time.
That said, I think that some of the LNT literature dilutes the message. It mixes the big important things that beginners need to know (pack out everything you pack in, practice good sanitation, don't cut living vegetation, don't camp by water ...) with subtler points that are more situational and obviously more arguable (Rubber tips on trekking poles always? Really? Have you guys ever hiked in winter? Those scratches on the rock are from crampons!) or even almost silly (Wear only muted colors? In a forest where you're lucky if you have a hundred-foot sight line? Makes sense in a desert or above treeline, where you could be wrecking someone else's view, but in our tangled vegetation, who cares?)
Those subtle points are fine to bring up for discussion, and we do well to consider whether we're damaging the trail surface with pointy stuff or spoiling a view, but they're surely not hard-and-fast rules, and have an impact on personal safety. There's no way that I won't wear orange in hunting season, or use sharp poles whenever I feel the need. Abandoning my body in the woods would surely be a violation of LNT.
There are always some hikers who go to the woods to get away from all the rules, and will display disdain for any attempt to impose any sort of order. The sort who will throw their trash right under a "IF YOU PACK IT IN, PACK IT OUT" sign to display their contempt, or burn a "NO FIRES" sign. The sort who have actually thrown their empties at me while I was cleaning up on a trail, "haw, haw, look at the garbage man!" I don't know what to do about that particular population. Retroactive postnatal abortion isn't lawful, I'm afraid. But LNT education isn't the solution to that problem, either.