View Full Version : Damn Kids Caused the ChimneyTop2 Fires
Tennessee Viking
12-07-2016, 20:03
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/juveniles-charged-tennessee-wildfires-killed-14-44041906
Authorities on Wednesday charged two juveniles in an East Tennessee (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/tennessee.htm) wildfire that killed 14 people and destroyed or damaged more than 1,700 buildings in an iconic tourism spot at the foot of the Great Smoky Mountains.Officials offered few other specifics about how they think the two started a fire that leveled buildings into charred scraps, carving a deadly path through the Gatlinburg area.
People scrambled in terror to try to flee on foot or drive out of the inferno that often cloaked them from all sides, shooting hot embers through the winds. Some spent days hoping for good news about their missing loved ones. Many learned they would soon be planning funerals.
The juveniles face aggravated arson charges in the fire in the Chimney Tops area of Great Smoky Mountains National Park on Nov. 23. That fire grew amid drought (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/weather/drought.htm) conditions and ultimately rode winds exceeding 87 miles per hour into the Gatlinburg area early last week. Authorities have not yet announced a dollar amount on the damaged caused by the wildfire.
The two are being held in the Sevier County juvenile detention center.
"Our promise is that we will do every effort to help bring closure to those who have lost so much," said Tennessee Bureau of Investigation Director Mark Gwyn.
The juveniles are from Tennessee, but not Sevier County, where the fires spread. Otherwise, officials said state law prevents releasing more information about them.
Karyssa Dalton, a 19-year-old whose grandmother Pamela Johnson remains missing in the blaze, said the two should be held accountable, even though they're young.
"I mean, what if somebody came through their town, and set their town on fire, and lost their loved ones, and lost all their homes?" Dalton said. "It's not fair."
Great Smoky Mountains National Park Chief Ranger Steve Kloster said the public was "critical" in offering investigators information through a tip line. Previously, the National Park Service (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/us/national-park-service.htm) said it believed the fire was human caused, and set up a tip line for people to call if they hiked that trail on Nov. 23, or knew anyone who did.
The investigation is ongoing and more charges could come. It's also possible that the case could be transferred to an adult criminal court, said local District Attorney General James Dunn.
The juveniles are entitled to a detention hearing within 72 hours in which a juvenile court judge will decide to hold them without bond, hold them with bond, or release them, Dunn said.
Dunn constantly said everything was "part of the investigation" when asked for details.
Asked if others could be charged in the fire, Dunn repeated that "everything's on the table."
"We don't know," he said.
On Wednesday, Gatlinburg residents and business owners were allowed to move back into homes and establishments permanently. They had been allowed to visit during daytime hours since last Friday.
The city is slated to open to the public on Friday morning. Though swaths of the city were decimated, the main downtown strip appears to have been spared.
johnnybgood
12-07-2016, 20:37
They should be sentenced to years of hard labor cleaning up the devastation caused by their stupidity.
Also paying retribution to business owners and private citizens who lost everything.
Let's see how Tennessee justice Sevier County style plays out.
Hope it's not you are only entitled to use your electronics for 4 hrs each day and it's only two Oreos rather than five. Rehabilitation could require dressing up in Smokey the Bear costumes handing out "You can Prevent Forest Fires' pamphlets in July at GSMNP.
14 people died. That was murder. Try accordingly.
johnnybgood
12-07-2016, 21:05
14 people died. That was murder. Try accordingly.
Likely Manslaughter 1st Degree .
MuddyWaters
12-07-2016, 21:09
They should be exterminated
soumodeler
12-07-2016, 21:31
As much as I want a lifetime jail sentence, my idea is a permanent job on the inmate wildfire crew, where they have to go to every fire if they are not currently working on one. And if there are no fires, the Smokey Bear costume sounds like a good idea...
Slo-go'en
12-07-2016, 21:34
They should be exterminated
Intent is a large part in it. If the fire was maliciously set with the intention of doing damage, that's one thing. If it was couple of kids having a campfire which got out of control, that's another. Either way, there needs to be repercussions, but how sever they are depends on the circumstances, the tragic results not withstanding. We won't know which way it goes for a while.
illabelle
12-07-2016, 21:43
According to the news conference I watched, they're being charged with "aggravated arson." That isn't equivalent to "stupidity". There's no amount of community service or other "rehabilitation" that comes close to being satisfactory. If they're guilty, I hope the State of Tennessee builds an airtight case and these two little angels get the lifelong confinement they deserve.
:mad:
14 people died. That was murder. Try accordingly.
murder, by definition, means intent to kill. no intent to kill. no murder. how much destruction was caused, how many people died, how angry you and everyone else is doesnt change that. its a good thing we dont succumb to mob rule justice in this country.
they should be all means by chrged with and tried for the crimes they committed, but murder snt on'e of them, sorry. go channel your anger elsewhere.
illabelle
12-07-2016, 21:57
Nobody is suggesting mob rule justice. We're angry. We need to vent. Once the facts are known and proved beyond reasonable doubt, I trust (and I believe most others trust) the criminal justice system of Tennessee to mete out the correct punishment.
murder, by definition, means intent to kill. no intent to kill. no murder. how much destruction was caused, how many people died, how angry you and everyone else is doesnt change that. its a good thing we dont succumb to mob rule justice in this country.
they should be all means by chrged with and tried for the crimes they committed, but murder snt on'e of them, sorry. go channel your anger elsewhere.
Feral Bill
12-07-2016, 21:58
murder, by definition, means intent to kill. no intent to kill. no murder. how much destruction was caused, how many people died, how angry you and everyone else is doesnt change that. its a good thing we dont succumb to mob rule justice in this country.
they should be all means by charged with and tried for the crimes they committed, but murder snt on'e of them, sorry. go channel your anger elsewhere. Killing someone in the commission of a felony is murder in most states. Sometimes used in charging drunk drivers. As for these two, we know nothing about them, except they're under 18. Lets leave justice to the courts, shall we. This is still the USA, no?
Killing someone in the commission of a felony is murder in most states. Sometimes used in charging drunk drivers. As for these two, we know nothing about them, except they're under 18. Lets leave justice to the courts, shall we. This is still the USA, no?
some felonies, not all of them. arson is one of them often but would be more applicable to setting a building you knew to be full of people on fire even though you didnt intend to kill anyone. its a stretch to apply that concept to people dying 10 miles away from the scene of the crime and with the extenuating circumstances of drought and 90 MPH winds.
at the risk of starting a crazy tangent, drunk driving laws are notoriously incongruous with most other legal concepts. i won't go into the reasons why this ths, but google "the DUI exception to the constitution" its a real thing legal scholars debate.
bigcranky
12-07-2016, 22:12
Lets leave justice to the courts, shall we. This is still the USA, no?
Um, we have a long history of mobs going down to the courthouse, dragging the suspect out, and lynching him. (I am NOT suggesting that in this case, just pointing out that the rule of law hasn't always been ideally followed.)
FrogLevel
12-07-2016, 22:18
Um, we have a long history of mobs going down to the courthouse, dragging the suspect out, and lynching him. (I am NOT suggesting that in this case, just pointing out that the rule of law hasn't always been ideally followed.)
Thank goodness that doesn't happen in this day and age.
As someone from East Tennessee I want to see justice in the courts. Lets see all the facts first and then deal out an appropriate punishment.
gracebowen
12-07-2016, 22:48
If teenagers means actual minors how about a little mercy. 13 to 15 year olds dont understand as much as older teens. Even if they sat the fire on purpose they are too young to fully understand the cinsrquences. I wish the courts could punish the parents too. 18 or 19 years old ok be a little harsh.
Kudos to the authorities who pursued the investigation. Thank you for your service.
imscotty
12-07-2016, 23:18
murder, by definition, means intent to kill. no intent to kill. no murder. how much destruction was caused, how many people died, how angry you and everyone else is doesnt change that. its a good thing we dont succumb to mob rule justice in this country.
they should be all means by chrged with and tried for the crimes they committed, but murder snt on'e of them, sorry. go channel your anger elsewhere.
Actually, to be charged with murder does not necessarily mean you had intent to kill. You can be charged with murder for 'depraved indifference' or for deaths in the commission of a felony (Felony murder). Deaths in an arson (even if you did not mean to kill anyone) can be charged as a felony murder. I do believe.
Take this with a grain of salt, I am not a lawyer, I am just playing one on the internet.
When my 22 year old cousin was knocked down by a 19 year old, stomped on and repeatedly kicked in the head by 4 other 19 - 22 year olds until he went into a coma and died, his mother insisted the perpetrators needed to be found and face their actions - her words: "They need to face up to what they did in order to be able to live their lives and make my son's death mean something."
On trial, one of the five (the one who knocked my cousin down) pled guilty and ended up speaking with the mom in private, apologizing for his actions. Her response? She told him he had to deal with the consequences - but THEN, make a difference with his life - make sure her son's death was not in vain... She also asked the judge to not sentence the young man to serve time - but rather to sentence him to community service which she would complete with him... (Note: judge gave him a year in jail.... but gave the other four up to 15 years...).My cousin, obviously, is a saint (I would have wanted the dude strung up by the b@lls); however, her message is a good one: these kids need to make a difference with their lives. They need to make those people's deaths not be in vain...
If interested in my cousin's story, look up a special ESPN did on the 19 year old who was involved: ESPN White Tiger.
Actually, to be charged with murder does not necessarily mean you had intent to kill. You can be charged with murder for 'depraved indifference' or for deaths in the commission of a felony (Felony murder). Deaths in an arson (even if you did not mean to kill anyone) can be charged as a felony murder. I do believe.
Take this with a grain of salt, I am not a lawyer, I am just playing one on the internet.
see, f you havent already, my second post.
in any case, my more broadly stated point was "what they did resulted in death, charge them with murder" is skipping a whole lot, to put it mildly, and is a knee jerk overreaction borne of anger.
and at the risk of that same sort of tangent again- a lot of our more recent laws allowing people to be charged with more and more crimes in more and more circumstances are really just the same concept carried out legislatively.
imscotty
12-07-2016, 23:25
I understand the anger, go ahead and vent.
This story just makes me sad. I hope this was not an intentional act. I hope on the other side of this these youths will still have a future (yes, I know the victims won't and that there needs to be consequences.).
I have some sympathy because I was once young and stupid too. There but for the Grace of God go I.
Intent is a large part in it. If the fire was maliciously set with the intention of doing damage, that's one thing. If it was couple of kids having a campfire which got out of control, that's another. Either way, there needs to be repercussions, but how sever they are depends on the circumstances, the tragic results not withstanding. We won't know which way it goes for a while.
Just because I was careless and ran over a family walking down the street doesn't mean I should get off with a slap on the hand. Intent or not, some degree of manslaughter.
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If teenagers means actual minors how about a little mercy. 13 to 15 year olds dont understand as much as older teens. Even if they sat the fire on purpose they are too young to fully understand the cinsrquences. I wish the courts could punish the parents too. 18 or 19 years old ok be a little harsh.
Are you serious?
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illabelle
12-08-2016, 00:05
It occurred to me that if the arsonists were too young to drive, they were likely in the company of parents or older friends, potential accomplices.
If they were alone, they were probably old enough to drive, a fact that would probably stifle any resistance to prosecution as adults.
Just speculating of course. A 13-year-old that starts fires might also be willing to drive without a license. Or they could have been dropped off at the trailhead and picked up later. Will be interesting to see what the investigation reveals.
Just because I was careless and ran over a family walking down the street doesn't mean I should get off with a slap on the hand. Intent or not, some degree of manslaughter.
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manslaughter may be resonable charge in this case.
lets say theyre convicted of it, theyll get what, 10-15 years? lets say for whatever various extenuating blah blah blah its 10.
the angry, vindictive types will cry about how they got a slap on the wrist for "murdering" 14 people. this sort of hyperbole is fr too rampant these days and does no one any good.
gracebowen
12-08-2016, 00:12
Are you serious?
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Yes I am serious.
Aggravated arson is a serious felony. I think it's a Class A felony. There's real potential for prison sentences and very likely long probationary periods. If they have records showing history related to these charges this could lead to detention time.
gracebowen
12-08-2016, 09:12
I agree what happened is serious but I am withholding judgment till there are more facts. There. Is a difference between 13 and 19. Many times the nees says its a teen and they turn out to be 18.
If teenagers means actual minors how about a little mercy. 13 to 15 year olds dont understand as much as older teens. Even if they sat the fire on purpose they are too young to fully understand the cinsrquences. I wish the courts could punish the parents too. 18 or 19 years old ok be a little harsh.
Yes, and science backs you up. The brains of younger teenagers are not fully developed, particularly in the frontal lobes which are responsible for impulse control. This is why the Supreme Court (with 5 conservatives at the time) ruled that the death penalty and life in prison with no parole are not suitable punishments for minors.
Anyway, we have no information yet on ages, motives, methods, or anything else. Heck, doesn't anyone remember that these kids are innocent until proven guilty? Shame on all of you who are rushing to judgment with no information. That's not what American values are about.
hikernutcasey
12-08-2016, 09:53
Obviously there are a lot of missing pieces of information that we just do not know yet. How old are they? Were they there by themselves without supervision? Was it malicious in intent? Etc.
My guess is they are 16 - 18 year olds who drove themselves up there with the intent of starting a fire to see what would happen without ever once thinking about it spreading into town and causing this kind of destruction. I don't think they would have charged them with "aggravated arson" unless they were sure it wasn't an innocent mistake. If this is the case, I think they should pay a severe punishment. The rules are established for a reason and if you break those rules you must pay the consequences.
Another Kevin
12-08-2016, 10:03
some felonies, not all of them. arson is one of them often but would be more applicable to setting a building you knew to be full of people on fire even though you didnt intend to kill anyone. its a stretch to apply that concept to people dying 10 miles away from the scene of the crime and with the extenuating circumstances of drought and 90 MPH winds.
at the risk of starting a crazy tangent, drunk driving laws are notoriously incongruous with most other legal concepts. i won't go into the reasons why this ths, but google "the DUI exception to the constitution" its a real thing legal scholars debate.
Right. Felony murder usually now requires the intent to do bodily harm - or 'depraved indifference' to it (much worse than simple recklessness). Otherwise, there can be weird cases that are clearly disproportionate. The two extreme examples that the lawyers used to like to debate are the owner of a getaway car (who had no part in the robbery) being charged with murder when the police shoot a bystander, or the person who passes a bad check being charged with murder when the recipient has a fatal allergic reaction to the ink.
gracebowen
12-08-2016, 10:37
Another Kevin that is true but in order to discourage felonies there is the law that says when in the act of a felony if a murder occurs all participating in the felony are liable.
The fire was first reported on November 23rd. Gatlinburg was hit by the fire on November 28th. The initial fire grew to 35 acres by November 27th. It spread to 17,000 acres on November 28th due to 40 mph sustained winds and 90+ mph gusts. Very little fire suppression actually occurred until November 27th when helicopters started dropping water on the fire and firelines started to be prepared.
http://wildfiretoday.com/tag/chimney-2-fire/
While I am upset that these 2 juveniles set the fire (allegedly), and I want to see them prosecuted and held accountable, there are other questions that will need to be asked in the coming days.
Did the NPS respond appropriately to the fire? Was it appropriate to let the fire burn with the high drought conditions? Why was it 4 days after the fire started before suppression efforts really began? Was it because the cold front approaching was predicted to bring high winds? Was Gatlinburg aware of the high danger of the conditions? Was adequate warning given?
I'm not trying to lay blame. But the massive death and destruction occurred 5 days after the fire was started. The fire was only 35 acres until November 27th. Granted, that is no easy task to put out, but many will question the NPS on their handling of this fire. While the youth will be held accountable, I think the NPS will need to be held accountable as well.
37354
Just my opinion
I'm not trying to lay blame. But the massive death and destruction occurred 5 days after the fire was started. The fire was only 35 acres until November 27th. Granted, that is no easy task to put out, but many will question the NPS on their handling of this fire. While the youth will be held accountable, I think the NPS will need to be held accountable as well.
You could do a little research before you start assuming that NPS has to be held accountable for wrongdoing somehow. This is from an NPS report:
The Chimney Tops 2 Fire was reported in Great Smoky Mountains National Park near Gatlinburg, TN on Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at approximately 5:20 p.m. The wildfire began burning in a remote location (Chimney Tops) of the park in steep terrain with vertical cliffs and narrow rocky ridges making access to the wildfire area difficult for firefighting efforts. On Monday, November 27th, continuous exceptional drought conditions and extreme winds caused the wildfire to grow rapidly, causing numerous new wildfire starts from embers carried miles away and downed powerlines in and adjacent to Great Smoky Mountains National Park. https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/news/chimneys-2-fire-update-11-30.htm
This says to me that suppressing the fire was not even an option. And dropping water on a fire does little to control it, especially if there are embers flying and fuels are dry.
I know a lot of people love to assume that when something goes wrong on government land, it's the government's fault. The reality is that fires are essentially uncontrollable with extreme fuels and weather. If you do a little googling, you find a number of criticisms that fire-fighting efforts out west, where extreme weather and fuels are more the norm, are basically wasted money. The bottom line is that some fires can't be stopped. We like to think that humans are in control of nature, but it's not always true.
Another Kevin that is true but in order to discourage felonies there is the law that says when in the act of a felony if a murder occurs all participating in the felony are liable.
if that is as clearly defined and 100% true as you state it is,thats insane. i hope it isnt, it wouldnt shock me if it is. again, the result of angry people legislating without thinking.
do you have any idea how many and what sorts of things are "felonies" these days? improperly storing lobsters is a felony. if in the act of improperly storing a lobster, the guy i am improperly storing a lobster with kills someone (pick your own outlandish explanation for how these 2 things occur together, thats not the point) i am not guilty of murder? thats downright frightening.
the forged check cited above is perhaps a better example.
back on topic some- i read a bit about what constitutes "aggravated arson" and unless something comes out that proves these kids went into the woods with some serious intent to do harm, i dont see it sticking. plea bargain or if theyre hell bent on taking them to trial an acquittal wouldnt shock me.
filling in the gaps with reasonable guess- 2 kids go in the woods and are deliberately starting fires of some sort for fun. stop and think of the wide array of things this could be- are they burning stuff with a magnifying glass? who knows. as others have pointed out "lets walk into the woods 2 miles to set them on fire and start a huge forest fire" seems unlikely.
so with that assumption, the "aggravated arson" charge is because of the severity of the results of their action. the thing is are the results just, or even mostly, the results of those actions? i think thats a tough sell.
My answers in bold.
...there are other questions that will need to be asked in the coming days.
Did the NPS respond appropriately to the fire? YES
Was it appropriate to let the fire burn with the high drought conditions? They weren't "Letting it burn"; if you've been to that area of the park down the mountain from Chimney Rock, you know it's all but impossible to get to. Why was it 4 days after the fire started before suppression efforts really began? Maybe because there were already dozens of other active fires in the area and suppression teams were already spread paper-thin combating much larger fires. Was it because the cold front approaching was predicted to bring high wind? It was likely because that was when an Incident Management Team, along with strike groups and a task force could finally be put together (again, think resource management). Was Gatlinburg aware of the high danger of the conditions? No one was aware of the danger, or steps would have been taken to evacuate the area much sooner. Prior to this, an event of this nature had NEVER been faced by fire combat professionals in the southeast. Flareups which grow this rapidly happen out west, but they are rare even there. Was adequate warning given? Obviously, the answer is no, but the warning was given the minute it became apparent it was needed. The speed with which the fire grew was unforeseeable.
Listen, it's easy and natural to want to blame the authorities because we are constantly sold the bill of goods that they are there to protect us from all the bad things. I spent 26 years in public safety and finished up my career as the interim chief of a public safety agency in Florida. I have seen firsthand how complicated incidents of this nature can become and there is always going to be armchair quarterbacking with potentially horrible consequences for those in charge.
You say you are not trying to lay blame, but that's exactly what you are doing in your post. I don't know what your career field is, but if it was outside of my area of expertise, I would not try to blame you for the consequences of decisions you made in the act of doing your job. Not unless I took the time to research the facts...
gpburdelljr
12-08-2016, 12:36
The two juveniles have been charged, but that doesn't mean they are guilty. Other than that they were arrested, we have no facts. People have been wrongfully arrested before. Why don't we hold our judgement on these two until we know the facts.
That at being said, I agree that the guilty parties, whoever they turn out to be, should be severely punished.
saltysack
12-08-2016, 12:40
Intent is a large part in it. If the fire was maliciously set with the intention of doing damage, that's one thing. If it was couple of kids having a campfire which got out of control, that's another. Either way, there needs to be repercussions, but how sever they are depends on the circumstances, the tragic results not withstanding. We won't know which way it goes for a while.
+1
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gracebowen
12-08-2016, 12:59
https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/9-4-felony-murder/
http://legislature.maine.gov/statutes/17-A/title17-Asec202.html
But I dont think it will apply to this case.
Their lawyer will be asking for a change of Venue,...But was it started in the National Park? Then the Feds have right to the case...
HooKooDooKu
12-08-2016, 16:07
Interesting twist...
To this point, the media has been reporting that the ChimneyTops2 fire was the source of all the destruction.
NPR interviewed a Ski Mountain resident that posted video he took while fleeing from his home. I found it interesting that this resident believed (or was it witnessed) the fires in his community were caused by sparks from power lines as high winds knocked down trees and tree branches.
When asked about the arsonists that have been arrested, his was pissed at the damage they have caused to his beloved GSMNP... but as of right now, he's not pinning the blame for the destruction and loss of life in his neighborhood on those arsonists.
rocketsocks
12-08-2016, 16:13
Yes, and science backs you up. The brains of younger teenagers are not fully developed, particularly in the frontal lobes which are responsible for impulse control. This is why the Supreme Court (with 5 conservatives at the time) ruled that the death penalty and life in prison with no parole are not suitable punishments for minors.
Anyway, we have no information yet on ages, motives, methods, or anything else. Heck, doesn't anyone remember that these kids are innocent until proven guilty? Shame on all of you who are rushing to judgment with no information. That's not what American values are about.........this^
Trailweaver
12-08-2016, 17:20
One question I have is this: Where were these boy's parents? Who raises children who even think it's acceptable to start an arson fire? No one really believes this is funny, and I'd bet these boys don't think so either after spending a few days in the YDC. By the way, I've heard on the news that they were 14 years old. That's old enough to know better, but not old enough to have a "developed" brain. I still think they should be held accountable for their actions, and some reallllly harsh community service work (for a reallllly long time) should be in their futures. I don't think community service is all they should get, or all they will get. I absolutely trust the Tennessee authorities to come through on this, and I can't say that about every state.
As to the felony charges related to a death if you are "just an accomplice" - yes, if you commit a crime, or if you are with someone else who commits a crime and a death happens, then you will be charged in the death. Say there are three people who rob a bank, and you are the person who just drives the get away car. The two robbers go in the bank, and someone loses his cool and shoots a teller, and the teller dies. Well you may be "only the driver," but the company you keep just got you a murder arrest warrant, and in the state of GA (as well as many other states), you're going to prison.
theinfamousj
12-08-2016, 17:39
One question I have is this: Where were these boy's parents? Who raises children who even think it's acceptable to start an arson fire? No one really believes this is funny, and I'd bet these boys don't think so either after spending a few days in the YDC. By the way, I've heard on the news that they were 14 years old. That's old enough to know better, but not old enough to have a "developed" brain.
Even the best parent can only *instill* character and values, not *install* it.
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Feral Bill
12-08-2016, 18:32
As a retired high school teacher, and former 14 year old, I can state confidently that kids that age generally have very little sense of future consequences. Brains develop, mistakes teach us, it all takes time. We'll learn soon enough if they started the fire at all, out of malice, or just out of boneheadedness. In any event, harsh retribution will accomplish nothing. You can't bring back the victims.
illabelle
12-08-2016, 19:43
If they were 14, how did they get to the trailhead? Were they driving at 14?
Or were they with parents or older friends? We haven't heard anything about anyone else being with them.
To this point, the media has been reporting that the ChimneyTops2 fire was the source of all the destruction.
NPR interviewed a Ski Mountain resident that posted video he took while fleeing from his home. I found it interesting that this resident believed (or was it witnessed) the fires in his community were caused by sparks from power lines as high winds knocked down trees and tree branches.
so, ive been outta my newsroom since this fire happened, but from what i have gathered through some of the emails from the officials, along with emails from my coworkers with updates on their stories/angles that they are pursuing------i do believe that we have been reporting that some of the fires were started by the downed lines and transformers......
i believe that there were multiple sources of ignition, but the majority of the fire was caused by the flying embers with the wind that day, and one area that burned, that fire was caused by the downed lines...
KyHiker1971
12-08-2016, 21:33
so, ive been outta my newsroom since this fire happened, but from what i have gathered through some of the emails from the officials, along with emails from my coworkers with updates on their stories/angles that they are pursuing------i do believe that we have been reporting that some of the fires were started by the downed lines and transformers......
i believe that there were multiple sources of ignition, but the majority of the fire was caused by the flying embers with the wind that day, and one area that burned, that fire was caused by the downed lines...
My understanding was that the Chimney2 fire had spread to Bullhead, and then down to Twin creeks-thanks to very high winds that afternoon. I read somewhere, and I'm trying to remember the source, that the Bullhead fire was extremely intense and had enveloped the crown/treetops of the forest. Until the NPS releases damage reports to trails and structures, everything is speculative.
The fire and ensuing loss of life and destroyed property absolutely sickens me. Gatlinburg has been a part of our family's life. We have spent time there on vacations, honeymoon, anniversaries, marital retreats etc. It's an area that I love despite the heavy crowds and countless tshirt stores. My wife and I ate at the Alamo on our first day of our honeymoon-after I hiked her beyond exhaustion up on Forney Ridge trail, and now it's gone. One of our favorite cabins was located off 321, near Gatlinburg Falls. The fire map produced by authorities shows incredible amount of structures lost in that area. Heartbreaking.
As for the kids responsible for this. I think there needs to be severe penalties. 14 counts of murder? Maybe not, but they should spend a considerable amount of time for their actions. I'm sure they did not set the fire with intention to destroy thousands of structures and loss of life. But they had to have known that conditions were perfect for a major fire in the forest.
Interesting twist...
To this point, the media has been reporting that the ChimneyTops2 fire was the source of all the destruction.
NPR interviewed a Ski Mountain resident that posted video he took while fleeing from his home. I found it interesting that this resident believed (or was it witnessed) the fires in his community were caused by sparks from power lines as high winds knocked down trees and tree branches.
When asked about the arsonists that have been arrested, his was pissed at the damage they have caused to his beloved GSMNP... but as of right now, he's not pinning the blame for the destruction and loss of life in his neighborhood on those arsonists.
Certainly possible that other fires started in the same area around the time that the original one was spreading and became "blended" into each other. Might also be tough to tell what the cause was for any specific area exactly unless someone (such as this person mentioned) did actually see a wire come down and/or start a fire, given the overall amount of fire and areas it covered.
If they were 14, how did they get to the trailhead? Were they driving at 14?
Or were they with parents or older friends? We haven't heard anything about anyone else being with them.
Based on the postings, it started on the 23rd (Wed before Thanksgiving). Perhaps a family(ies) that was out camping (I don't know about that area, but here many of the schools had that day off) and the two youth decided to go out for a hike on their own, either with (or without) knowledge of those they were with?
so, ive been outta my newsroom since this fire happened, but from what i have gathered through some of the emails from the officials, along with emails from my coworkers with updates on their stories/angles that they are pursuing------i do believe that we have been reporting that some of the fires were started by the downed lines and transformers......
i believe that there were multiple sources of ignition, but the majority of the fire was caused by the flying embers with the wind that day, and one area that burned, that fire was caused by the downed lines...
Well, damnit, if those embers and downed lines started the fire, then the embers and power lines need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, up to and including execution if necessary.
(Being snarky. Just trying to make the point that people who jump to conclusions often end up looking like fools.)
gracebowen
12-08-2016, 22:29
So the news is possibly not telling the whole truth and making the kids look worse than they are.
So the news is possibly not telling the whole truth and making the kids look worse than they are.
we are reporting what is given and confirmed to us.........
if its not confirmed by officials, then we arent running it..........
many of the facts of the juveniles actions have not been released by officials, so we are going with the truth as we know it now.....
once the juveniles have a hearing or three----more facts of the matter will come out.........
thats how the process goes.......
gpburdelljr
12-08-2016, 23:28
So the news is possibly not telling the whole truth and making the kids look worse than they are.
The only news I saw was that the juveniles were arrested, with no other facts. It is the people on this thread that are making assumptions about the juveniles being guilty based on zero evidence.
Even the best parent can only *instill* character and values, not *install* it.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
There was that really wise rich powerful ruler person named Solomon who said “train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it” :D
There was that really wise rich powerful ruler person named Solomon who said “train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it” :DThat promise is open ended as "old" is not a given number unfortunately.
bstiffler
12-09-2016, 10:20
If teenagers means actual minors how about a little mercy. 13 to 15 year olds dont understand as much as older teens. Even if they sat the fire on purpose they are too young to fully understand the cinsrquences. I wish the courts could punish the parents too. 18 or 19 years old ok be a little harsh.
Yeah that argument is bull****. I was taking care of my younger sister from the age of 8 while my parents worked. they're teenagers not two.
Aggravated arson is a serious felony. I think it's a Class A felony. There's real potential for prison sentences and very likely long probationary periods. If they have records showing history related to these charges this could lead to detention time.
"Aggravated Arson
More serious than simple arson, aggravated arson carries much harsher sentences. You may be charged and convicted of aggravated arson if you commit an arson and someone is present in the structure you burn or if an emergency worker suffers serious bodily injury as a result of the fire.Aggravated arson is a Class A felony, the most serious level of felony charges. A Class A felony carries a potential sentence of 15-60 years in prison and fines up to $50,000."
http://www.mytennesseedefenselawyer.com/criminal-charges/vandalism-arson/
rocketsocks
12-09-2016, 23:00
There was that really wise rich powerful ruler person named Solomon who said “train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it” :D
...there's another one that says "spare thy rod spoil thy child"
Feral Bill
12-10-2016, 00:34
...there's another one that says "spare thy rod spoil thy child" Another says to take disobedient youths out past the edge of town and stone them to death. I'll pass on that authority, thank you.
I've always held true that the biggest differences come from "Adults Today", vice "Children Today".
Children are the product of the adult role models and parenting that they encounter from birth. They take our Adult input from day one, and if we fail, we hold responsibility for the example that we give every day.
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 01:36
Yeah that argument is bull****. I was taking care of my younger sister from the age of 8 while my parents worked. they're teenagers not two.
It is not bs. Science backs it up and SCOTUS say death and life without parole is cruel and unusual punishment for minors. So even SCOTUS recognizes mitigating circumstance of youth.
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 01:37
Another says to take disobedient youths out past the edge of town and stone them to death. I'll pass on that authority, thank you.
Knowledge without wisdom
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 01:38
...there's another one that says "spare thy rod spoil thy child"
Knowledge without wisdom
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 01:48
Knowledge without wisdom
Post made in error. Please disregard.
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 01:49
Uugh. Rocketsocks please disregard. Post made in error.
HooKooDooKu
12-10-2016, 02:44
Certainly possible that other fires started in the same area around the time that the original one was spreading and became "blended" into each other. Might also be tough to tell what the cause was for any specific area exactly unless someone (such as this person mentioned) did actually see a wire come down and/or start a fire, given the overall amount of fire and areas it covered.
Based on the postings, it started on the 23rd (Wed before Thanksgiving). Perhaps a family(ies) that was out camping (I don't know about that area, but here many of the schools had that day off) and the two youth decided to go out for a hike on their own, either with (or without) knowledge of those they were with?
For those that don't know the area, the original fire started at the end of a day-use only trail that is only accessible by car. There are no campsites nearby, and if there were, there was a ban on all open fires in the park at the time due to the drought.
And to those that know the area well, yes I know you can reach the Chimney Tops from the AT, and it's not impossible to ride a bike to the trailhead either. But from a practical stand point for the purpose of this discussion, you can take that statement to be true.
So the teenager charged with arson, they were either just old enough that one of them drove to the trailhead, or they were on a dayhike with family.
doritotex
12-10-2016, 09:48
Saturday, December 10, 2016
by Jim Miller - Radio Greeneville (http://www.facebook.com/RadioGreenevilleNews) News
According to published reports, the two teenagers charged with arson in connection with the Gatlinburg wildfire had been horsing around with matches prior to the start of the blaze.
The report from the Knoxville News Sentinel cited a source close to the investigation who said that the boys are ages 17 and 15 and from Anderson County. On November 23, the teens were hiking on the Chimney Tops trail in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park when a hiker saw them tossing lit matches on the ground around the trail.
The hiker captured an image of the boys walking away from the trail, and their clothing assisted investigators in being able to identify them.
The current charges of aggravated arson would not qualify the younger boy for a transfer into adult court, but the older defendant would be able to be transferred if prosecutors can convince a Juvenile Court judge to approve the transfer.
Earlier this week, Fourth Judicial District Attorney General James Dunn said that additional charges are being considered against the teens, after more than 2,400 buildings were damaged or destroyed and 14 people were killed in the fire.
The teenagers remain at the Sevier County Juvenile Detention Center since being taken into custody on Wednesday.
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 10:14
I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.
Puddlefish
12-10-2016, 11:00
I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.
Try this easy and fun experiment. Pile up a some really dry leaves and pine needles on the sofa in your living room, or uses some tissues if you don't have leaves. Stack some kindling around it. Then nail shut all of your windows and doors. Flick a few dozen matches at the tissues, and report back to us on your theory if you're still alive. Don't do this, I'm being snarky. Smoldering material can and does start fires.
imscotty
12-10-2016, 12:42
Yes, the boys behavior was grossly irresponsible. They need to be held accountable for this. They are probably sh**ing themselves right now in fear in Juvenile detention, as they should be. That is a start.
They need to understand the magnitude of the harm they have done, they need to feel that burden in their hearts and souls, they need to express regret. Hopefully they will learn from this experience, hopefully there can be some forgiveness from the community, hopefully on the other side of this they will still have lives worth living.
I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.
Are you serious? In what reality do you reside?
I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.
This has to be the most irresponsible post ever. Congratulations!
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 13:32
Jeez instead of being such jerks how about explaining it to me so I can learn something.
gracebowen
12-10-2016, 13:51
Jeez instead of being such jerks how about explaining it to me so I can learn something.
And then theres this.
http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327
Out of 75 butts tossed in controlled conditions only 3 started a fire
Here you go https://smokeybear.com/en
Time Zone
12-10-2016, 14:02
Jeez instead of being such jerks how about explaining it to me so I can learn something.
And then theres this.
http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327
Out of 75 butts tossed in controlled conditions only 3 started a fire
You may be unaware of the extraordinary drought conditions that were present in this part of the United States. It is much easier to accidentally start a fire under such dry conditions, esp. with high winds.
with respect to your lit matches going out, all it takes is one that doesn't go out. They're not going to all go out, esp. in drought conditions with wind. You just can't do stuff like that in these conditions, it's too dangerous. Over a dozen killed and thousands of buildings damaged/destroyed. Your argument would be fine if you were the only one potentially hurt by a low probability event (and in the given conditions it may not have been low), but there was widespread risk to others. Even if your Australian stats were right and applicable here, are you suggesting you'd voluntarily take a 1 in 25 chance of killing 14 people? When there's no risk of starting a fire that way if you simply refrain from throwing lit matches or cigarette butts? I can't believe you're downplaying this.
reality check - OJ got away with real murder --- planned, bloody, intentional, hands on --- because he had the money for top legal defense
many here are calling for punishment that would be appropriate for OJ's crime
as described, this was highly irresponsible action - similar to driving intoxicated
who is so innocent to cast the 1st stone?? certainly not I
most likely outcome: public defender will plea this to a reduced charge, time served and probation - again, less of a miscarriage of justice than OJ
IMO anyone with a second DUI (or refusal to test) should do more time than these kids
Feral Bill
12-10-2016, 14:30
Yes, the boys behavior was grossly irresponsible. They need to be held accountable for this. They are probably sh**ing themselves right now in fear in Juvenile detention, as they should be. That is a start.
They need to understand the magnitude of the harm they have done, they need to feel that burden on their hearts and souls, they need to express regret. Hopefully they will learn from this experience, hopefully there can be some forgiveness from the community, hopefully on the other side of this they will still have lives worth living. +1.........
Emerson Bigills
12-10-2016, 14:34
Unless they were smokers, they really didn't need any fire starting devices on a day hike of that duration. Especially at that age. If they were smokers and were tossing multiple lit matches on the trail in drought conditions they were grossly irresponsible and likely in violation of the burn ban. The loss of trees, wildlife, property and lives is a sad tale. Maybe privy cleaning duty for 5 years in the Smokies would be a way to repay back some to society. :-?
illabelle
12-10-2016, 15:15
From the Knoxville News Sentinel, if anybody is interested in more detail:
The teenagers charged with setting the fire in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that ultimately spread to torch thousands of homes and businesses and kill 14 people were horsing around with matches, sources say.
The boys, ages 17 and 15, were charged this week in Sevier County Juvenile Court with aggravated arson in the Nov. 28 wildfires that shut down the city of Gatlinburg at the height of its winter tourism season and damaged or destroyed more than 2,400 homes and businesses. The death toll included two children and a woman who died fleeing the flames
Fourth Judicial District Attorney General Jimmy Dunn, whose jurisdiction includes Sevier County, and Tennessee Bureau of Investigation Director Mark Gwyn announced the teens' arrests Wednesday but refused to reveal any details. State law shields from the public most documents and information on juvenile defendants in all but the most serious cases, such as murder and rape. Aggravated arson is not on the list of the most serious charges.
Sources familiar with the teenagers and the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly about the case say the two boys are friends and live in Anderson County. The boys were hiking on the Chimney Tops trail in the park on Nov. 23 and tossing lit matches onto the ground around the trail, the sources said. A hiker unwittingly captured an image of the boys walking away from the trail with smoke in the background, and the teenagers' clothing helped authorities identify them, according to sources.
The oldest boy is the son of an Anderson County Sheriff's Office employee, according to sources. The News Sentinel has learned 4th Judicial District Public Defender Ed Miller has been tapped to represent the 17-year-old, while veteran Knoxville defense attorney Gregory P. Isaacs has been retained by the family of the younger teen. Miller did not return a phone call Friday. Isaacs would not say whether he represents the boy.
Dunn also did not return a phone call Friday. A detention hearing for the boys set for Friday was delayed.
The two friends are in separate legal postures as they are currently charged. Aggravated arson is not a qualifying offense that would allow a judge to transfer the 15-year-old to be tried as an adult in Criminal Court. Under state law, prosecutors can seek to transfer defendants under the age of 16 to adult court only if they are charged with a set list of the most heinous crimes, including murder, rape, robbery and kidnapping. But the law allows a 17-year-old defendant to be tried as an adult for any crime if prosecutors can convince a Juvenile Court judge to grant the transfer.
Dunn said at a news conference this week that "additional charges are being considered and all options are on the table, including transfer of these juveniles to adult Criminal Court."
The boys are not charged in the fire deaths, but aggravated arson is a crime for which a charge of felony murder — a death that results from the commission of certain felonies -- can be legally supported. If Dunn seeks felony murder charges, the 15-year-old boy would then qualify to be considered for trial as an adult.
The teenagers remain in juvenile detention in Sevier County.
Authorities have said they believe last week's deadly wildfires began with the Nov. 23 blaze at Chimney Tops. The fire initially did not pose a threat to Gatlinburg or surrounding areas, but on Nov. 28, hurricane-style winds hit Sevier County and spread the embers of the fire already burning in the park to lower elevations. Prosecutors would need to show the boy's actions - by playing with matches - directly resulted in the deaths of the fire victims. Any action or inaction by the National Park Service in handling the Chimney Tops blaze would come into play should felony murder charges be sought.
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2016/12/09/sources-teens-toying-matches-started-fatal-wildfire/95210356/
greensleep
12-10-2016, 15:48
I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.
---and here's your sign.--- Jeff Foxworthy
rocketsocks
12-10-2016, 17:11
I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.see now ya lost me there!
Jeez instead of being such jerks how about explaining it to me so I can learn something.
And then theres this.
http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327
Out of 75 butts tossed in controlled conditions only 3 started a fire
So, only 4% started a fire. Would you swim in the ocean off a beach where only 4% of the swimmers were eaten by sharks?
Another Kevin
12-10-2016, 21:59
What I hear in this thread are cries for vengeance. cries that will not be stilled until the score is settled. Even if we label the crime as willful and premeditated murder, there are to date fourteen victims, and each of the culprits has only one life to be taken.
What would satisfy the need for vengeance? Would simple death of the two perpetrators suffice, or does vengeance have to be exacted upon the families and communities of the criminals, until at least fourteen lives have been taken, and equivalent torture exacted to balance all the other personal injuries and damaged property? Clearly, for each culprit to suffer only one death would be insufficient to even the score.
I fully expect that the answer will be, "well, THEY started it." The parents, I expect to hear, will deserve the same penalties, for having raised such monsters. The siblings, more in sorrow than in anger, for having been born to such a monstrous family. The neighbors, for having failed to run the family out of town.
This is how generations-long hatreds start: with the promise that we will never forgive, and we will never forget.
It would not astonish me to learn that these fires are the cause of vendettas a century hence, among people who will have forgotten even what the original grievance was.
Rebuild Pigeon Forge, but please try to have enough mercy that this local attraction is still a dinner theatre and not a bloodbath.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Hatfield_%26_McCoy_Dinner_Show%2C_Pigeon_Forge%2C_ TN_IMG_5042.JPG/220px-Hatfield_%26_McCoy_Dinner_Show%2C_Pigeon_Forge%2C_ TN_IMG_5042.JPG
hayshaker170
12-11-2016, 11:13
I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.
Oh my god! Wow! I have seen some really stupid things on the internet, but this takes the cake.
Oh my god! Wow! I have seen some really stupid things on the internet, but this takes the cake.
It definitely warrants a "SMH." Or a W T ???. Or a bunch of :confused::eek::datz:-?:(
theinfamousj
12-16-2016, 11:57
There was that really wise rich powerful ruler person named Solomon who said “train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it” :D
You are saying the exact same thing that I said. Instilling is training. But still no guarantee.
In King Solomon's case, though, he has codependent thinking. Because the actions of one grown human are not the responsibility of a different grown human. Actions of grown humans are the responsibility of themselves and no one else, save with a gun to their temple. And even then, the victim still chose to comply rather than die.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
greensleep
12-16-2016, 15:22
---and here's your sign.--- Jeff Foxworthy
I have to apologize to Bill Engvall fans. the quote was his not Foxworthy's.
I have to apologize to Bill Engvall fans. the quote was his not Foxworthy's.
If you've ever thrown a match on the ground during a record drought, you just might be a...dumb azz.
gracebowen
12-16-2016, 16:49
If you've ever thrown a match on the ground during a record drought, you just might be a...dumb azz.
I didnt say where I tossed the match but....to be clear it was on conctete.....and it was a long time ago. When I was young and stupid. Im sure everyone has made an unwise choice a time or two.
illabelle
12-16-2016, 17:36
Grace, thank you for that clarification. I think we're all on the same page and can agree that the teens made a very unwise choice.
[Hint: time to stop bashing Grace.]
I didnt say where I tossed the match but....to be clear it was on conctete.....and it was a long time ago. When I was young and stupid. Im sure everyone has made an unwise choice a time or two.
Grace, thank you for that clarification. I think we're all on the same page and can agree that the teens made a very unwise choice.
[Hint: time to stop bashing Grace.]
I didnt say where I tossed the match but....to be clear it was on conctete.....and it was a long time ago. When I was young and stupid. Im sure everyone has made an unwise choice a time or two.
I was referring to the kids tossing matches, not Grace.
pilgrimskywheel
12-16-2016, 23:05
They should be exterminated
+1: I'm thinking about the Old Testament here. I know a lot of good God fearing folks down there who'd shout "amen" to that too. Sorry kids.
gracebowen
12-16-2016, 23:28
Is calling for someones extermination considered a threat against them?
I have a couple or three questions:
The witness. Why didn't the witness engage the teens to help put the small fire or fires out? Or at least attempt to put the fire out themselves?
Why didn't firefighters go in early and attempt to contain the fire?
Why weren't aircraft used to try to contain the fire?
The wollybugger front was known and followed for several days before it slammed the park.
Do you suppose that anyone will try and sort out the paths of the Chimney Tops 2 fire and embers from any other fires from different causes?
I recall the earliest reports from the first that the worst damage was on opposite sides of downtown suggesting that there was more than one source of the major burn areas.
All anyone should want are the facts. I'm not sure that all the facts are known yet.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
gracebowen
12-17-2016, 11:14
Exaclty. I saw one report where something else was the cause of at least some of the fire. Im afraid now that there is someone to blame those 2 kids will take all the blame. I too wonder why the witness didnt do any of those things. Also if he saw the teens
Tossing the matches why did he only get smoke in the background. And just how far in the background was the flames.
gracebowen
12-17-2016, 11:17
Meant to quote Wayne.
gpburdelljr
12-17-2016, 12:01
I certainly hope that some of the people commenting on this thread never serve on a jury. You are supposed to hear the evidence before you convict, or not convict, the accused. Some people seem to be ready to skip a trial and go directly to sentencing. That is what lynch mobs do.
Why didn't firefighters go in early and attempt to contain the fire?
they did...
MuddyWaters
12-17-2016, 13:05
I certainly hope that some of the people commenting on this thread never serve on a jury. You are supposed to hear the evidence before you convict, or not convict, the accused. Some people seem to be ready to skip a trial and go directly to sentencing. That is what lynch mobs do.
deciding innocence or guilt, is completely separate than discussion on what fitting punishment might be.
I have seen no one claim the kids are without a doubt guilty, or calling for backwoods justice.
Discussion is centered around ramifications if they are. Most people can discern the difference without having to explicitly state it in every post.
Except a few troublemakers just wanting to stir things up, and everyone can recognize them.
I have a couple or three questions:
You should watch the press conference which is the second video down on the link below....
ranger clayton Jordan explains the path of the Fire and what they did to try to contain it....
https://www.google.com/amp/www.wbir.com/amp/news/local/wildfire/news-conference-for-sevier-co-fires-set-for-11-am-tuesday/369201724?client=safari
gpburdelljr
12-17-2016, 13:26
deciding innocence or guilt, is completely separate than discussion on what fitting punishment might be.
I have seen no one claim the kids are without a doubt guilty, or calling for backwoods justice.
Discussion is centered around ramifications if they are. Most people can discern the difference without having to explicitly state it in every post.
Except a few troublemakers just wanting to stir things up, and everyone can recognize them.
i have no problem with a discussion of the appropriate punishment for whoever the guilty party turns out to be, and many of the posts are written in that way. Some of the posts, however, specifically mention the juveniles when discussing punishment....that is what I object to. Even the title of this thread presumes that the kids are guilty.
Why weren't aircraft used to try to contain the fire?
they did.......
I recall the earliest reports from the first that the worst damage was on opposite sides of downtown suggesting that there was more than one source of the major burn areas.
the winds (which were clock at near 90 mph) picked up embers and carried them across the ridge and down into town...
after that----well, I could explain it or if you watch the video I posted, ranger Jordan explains the path of the fire.....
a lot of the questions you have would can be answered if you do a little bit of research into it......
the winds (which were clock at near 90 mph) picked up embers and carried them across the ridge and down into town...
after that----well, I could explain it or if you watch the video I posted, ranger Jordan explains the path of the fire.....
a lot of the questions you have would can be answered if you do a little bit of research into it......
+1
They are called spot fires and it can cause the fire to travel almost as fast as the wind is blowing.
Thanks for the links. Thanks for the answers.
I'm in NC now.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
juniorace
12-27-2016, 22:58
I went down there 8 days after the fire to check out my brother's rental chalet. It had survived, but I was absolutely amazed with the destruction there. It had rained about 2 inches prior to me getting down there, and rained the whole time I was there...but structures were STILL smoking.
The wind also knocked down power lines resulting in new fires
HooKooDooKu
01-17-2017, 00:33
The wind also knocked down power lines resulting in new fires
That point was already touched on a few pages back. I'm sure that will be a major point of contention for the defence if the kids are ever put on trial for the deaths that occurred as a result of the fires.
hikehunter
01-17-2017, 01:36
Having just bought land in the area (Oct2016) and reading many reports of the fire; I see that the teens will most likely plee out on some arson charge and get their lives changed forever. I hope that they can get some guidance to move forward in the years to come to be a positive force in the world. Yes, they should face a punishment for the actions they made. Are they to blame for the deaths ? God, or whoever, will let them know in time. If they do get to walk free-ish in the next 5 to 10 yrs I hope that they are working to better the world around them and to help those in need.
NPS should have to answer a lot of questions. They are really bad about sweeping things under rug. This is probably too big for the rug.
Traveler
01-23-2017, 09:04
NPS should have to answer a lot of questions. They are really bad about sweeping things under rug. This is probably too big for the rug.
I'm not sure what questions you would have them answer they have not addressed in interviews and incident reports. Prosecution of arson is not theirs to make, though they can advocate for/against, thats the job of State or more likely Federal prosecutors.
I'm not sure what questions you would have them answer they have not addressed in interviews and incident reports. Prosecution of arson is not theirs to make, though they can advocate for/against, thats the job of State or more likely Federal prosecutors.
Im a wildland firefighter, was in the are. They haven't answered all. There are independent investigations going on
Traveler
01-27-2017, 08:01
Im a wildland firefighter, was in the are. They haven't answered all. There are independent investigations going on
Which probably explains why they haven't answered "all" questions. Typically when an investigation is performed, no one says much until its concluded. Though what exactly are "independent" investigations? Is it County, State, Federal governments or is it lawyers seeking information for client actions?
http://wate.com/2017/02/02/fire-expert-team-to-review-deadly-chimney-tops-2-fire-in-smokies/ it will vary. Im sure the kids lawyers will also do some digging
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/01/29/public-agencies-lock-down-all-information-gatlinburg-wildfire/97216662/
Hit reply to quick the second story is about them locking down all info on the fires