View Full Version : Possum Down - Is it ethical?
StealthHikerBoy
12-08-2016, 14:34
Stumbled upon this video (warning - it is pretty powerful and upsetting):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bXtFRqc5dI
I've never used possum down, but what do folks think about Zpacks using it? Looks pretty cruel, but then again I have no idea how the loads of gear I have with goose down in it is sourced.
MuddyWaters
12-08-2016, 14:39
Its a non -native invasive species I believe, that is doing environmental damage to New Zealand and threatening native species.
Starchild
12-08-2016, 15:12
Never heard of it, but it does seem like the attempt to humanely dispatch the animal was made, though perhaps fumbled as we are not perfect, but quickly attended to. Such videos are prised by thoses who wish to make a point without telling the full story.
What does z-pack sell that is possumdown and really what is it at all?
Has everyone lost their minds?
Don't believe everything you see on the Internet.
Has everyone lost their minds?
Yes.
Present company quite likely not excluded.
Sarcasm the elf
12-08-2016, 15:29
Has everyone lost their minds?
I haven't lost mine yet, but not for lack of trying...
Greenlight
12-08-2016, 15:31
I didn't think it was powerful or upsetting. It was a hunter taking down small game. I liked the weepy orchestral backdrop for the video. It made me want to fly home and watch Lifetime movie where all women are skinny and do yoga while wearing cottage crystal jewelry and drinking cucumber water. If you want natural products, they come from natural sources. If you want pork, you have to slaughter a pig. If you want a coon skin cap, some raccoon somewhere has to take a bullet to the brain. Killing game isn't cruel, it's a fact of life that children on farms used to learn when they were two, and most of them had downed their first buck by the time they were six.
Stumbled upon this video (warning - it is pretty powerful and upsetting):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bXtFRqc5dI
I've never used possum down, but what do folks think about Zpacks using it? Looks pretty cruel, but then again I have no idea how the loads of gear I have with goose down in it is sourced.
greensleep
12-08-2016, 17:04
[QUOTE=rickb;2110461]Has everyone lost their minds?
Yes, found it though, but have never been sure if it was actually mine.
This is the side of the kill we don't want to recognize. This depicts tracing sourcing from the beginning which is often intentionally hidden from us for good reason... humans in their arrogance don't want to admit how human centric and self absorbed we OFTEN are. The opening kill scene could have been a quicker decisive absolute kill. The hammer to the head was NOT immediate. NO, all animals don't meet with a quick "humane" death. The idea that animals can't suffer is pure nonsense science has debunked and shown to be vastly disingenuous. Yes, I'm a hunter too or at least used to hunt extensively. I can state without a doubt animals aren't always dead with the first shot or with the first attempt at the kill or over in a millisecond as usually depicted in many hunting, survivalist, and softened and edited for public acceptance animal food industry kill vids. And without a doubt I recognize fear, pain, terror, and torment on animal's faces and in their bodies leading up to and during their death. What is going through their brains and emotions(YES animals have emotions!) has to be similar although it can be easy to lie to ourselves that this is not the case. This is true and observed even on the cellular level as cells move away from or attempt to avoid discomfort and pain or life, in its' earliest stages, in vitro.
Although a movie, if we as a species had more attachment to everything as depicted in Powder perspectives would be change. Powder's physical appearance, so outside the norm and unfamiliar, is symbolic also of his thoughts and perspectives compared to the norm. Don't get it twisted; this isn't an anti hunting or anti meat eating or pro PETA rant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ2Cg6koHPQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVaBT9KTI4c I experienced this awakening, this connection. Made me see life, all of it, differently. I may still sustenance hunt though and will certainly pull a trigger if I think need be.
These topics are directly related to our walks and behavior.
theinfamousj
12-08-2016, 17:21
So, let me get this straight, Zpacks is making use of a part of the animal that would otherwise be tossed away and we are supposed to be upset? I am *thrilled* they are helping use the whole animal!
Also, as a chemist the cyanide textual overlay made me roll my eyes. Of course that is how cyanide kills mammals. The trope of the spy with the cyanide capsule tooth is well played out. The spy would experience the same.
But here is where I am confused: cyanide is a gas so in order to gas the possum, don't you also have to gas its clinging babies? Why suggest that they are living as that simply defeats credibility? Cyanide doesn't know it is supposed to only be inhaled by one animal out of a group. It isn't sentient.
Possum stew is a thing. Even here in the US, possums are hunted for that purpose. Don't think anyone gives any thought to the fur when making stew. Don't suppose you can donate to Zpacks?
But to be honest, I am surprised that in the quantities needed for all the possum down gloves and socks I have seen produced by manufacturers that these specific possum types are wild hunted rather than factory farmed. Seems more efficient to so the latter.
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lyagooshka
12-08-2016, 17:22
Just my $0.02.
Didn't watch the video.
Have no interest, assuming the possum dies.
Just wanted to say that even if the followinf is true:
Its a non -native invasive species I believe, that is doing environmental damage to New Zealand and threatening native species.
The animal is not responsible and every attempt should be made:
...to humanely dispatch the animal...
I'm not saying anyone here said otherwise, but I just want to reiterate as I have been down south hunting boar and seen some, shall we say, "less than ethical" persons purposefully shooting the boar to injure it and finish it off later. :mad:
The boar is not at fault.
It's a wild pig doing what wild pigs do.
Yes, I hunt, and I am no fan of many of these 'animal rights' groups, but I am even less a fan of people who enjoy torturing ANYTHING.:mad:
No, killing for food is not the same.
Again, just my $0.02.
AfterParty
12-08-2016, 17:27
I don't understand some people still trap and he dispatched the animal pretty efficiently. He will probably get a couple bucks max for each possom he traps to feed his family. zpacks is not buying direct from the trappers.
theinfamousj
12-08-2016, 17:30
And then I did research and found this
https://sites.google.com/site/basicallybush9/the-story/possum-fibre-skin-harvesting
Where I learned that to be able to get the quantities of possum down necessary to meet manufacturing demand it is actually a blend with merino wool (to make up volume). A ha!
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theinfamousj
12-08-2016, 17:34
Just my $0.02.
Didn't watch the video.
Have no interest, assuming the possum dies.
Just wanted to say that even if the followinf is true:
The animal is not responsible and every attempt should be made:
I'm not saying anyone here said otherwise, but I just want to reiterate as I have been down south hunting boar and seen some, shall we say, "less than ethical" persons purposefully shooting the boar to injure it and finish it off later. :mad:
The boar is not at fault.
It's a wild pig doing what wild pigs do.
Yes, I hunt, and I am no fan of many of these 'animal rights' groups, but I am even less a fan of people who enjoy torturing ANYTHING.:mad:
No, killing for food is not the same.
Again, just my $0.02.
The video showed two instantaneous kills (the most humane dispatch possible) and then written overlay about poisoning which had an emotional and prima facie false suggestion of continued life of Joeys and suggested they experienced emotional trauma.
After researching further, a doe with joeys in her pitch will be a dead doe with dead joeys. No one left to mourn. Which invalidates their particular implied claim, even if a torturing operation may not be as humane as the blunt trauma instantaneous kills actually shown.
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theinfamousj
12-08-2016, 17:36
Bloody autocorrect and inability to edit on this app. Arrrrrrrgh.
Doe with joeys in her *pouch* (not pitch)
And a *poisoning* (not torturing) operation
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So, let me get this straight, Zpacks is making use of a part of the animal that would otherwise be tossed away and we are supposed to be upset? I am *thrilled* they are helping use the whole animal!....
I'm all for using the whole animal too. Let's apply your reasoning to all animals....including the human animal. Soylent HUMAN FOOD made from recycled human protein/dead humans?, HUMAN leather products?, How about no more human coffins, human mummification, or entombment? We need the land for other things! Human fertilizer and fish food? Humans could make good sources of both.
How do you feel about that? :-?
theinfamousj
12-08-2016, 17:41
I intend on my demise to be donated to science. It is the closest I can get to "using the whole of me". I live my values :)
Are you expecting me to disagree with the idea of using a human corpse?
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peakbagger
12-08-2016, 17:42
They take possum trapping serious in southern NZ. When I did the Milford Track one of the guides mentioned that they all had a trap line as the company paid a bounty on every weasel or possum they caught plus there was prize at the end of the season for the guide who had caught the most. No predators for the non native possums and rabbits. Weasels were introduced to eat the possums but decided the native birds that lay their eggs on the ground are easier prey. Many of the endangered species in NZ had to be relocated to islands to keep them from introduced predators. There is also a fairly large debate going on about feral and cats in general that are not kept indoors. I think they imported a virus that kills only rabbits to cut the rabbit population down.
T.S.Kobzol
12-08-2016, 17:52
Bought my wife a pair of those gloves from ZPacks about 2 months ago. She loves them.
(didn't show her this video ;-) )
The video showed two instantaneous kills (the most humane dispatch possible) and then written overlay about poisoning which had an emotional and prima facie false suggestion of continued life of Joeys and suggested they experienced emotional trauma.
After researching further, a doe with joeys in her pitch will be a dead doe with dead joeys. No one left to mourn. Which invalidates their particular implied claim, even if a torturing operation may not be as humane as the blunt trauma instantaneous kills actually shown.
That is not an instantaneous kill in the opening scene. What the heck is your definition of instantaneous? For many it means no suffering which is just another way to emotionally soften the trauma of the physical death experience into more easily accepted terms. Seems you're emotionally and mentally fooling yourself phrasing that as an instantaneous non painful death.
A mother unnaturally, tragically, and untimely forcibly separated from her children as one is living with the other dead both experience loss. It's obvious throughout the animal kingdom, including but not exclusive to the human species, as various species "mourn" the untimely loss of their young or children 'mourn' the death of their mother or parents/guardian which is sometimes the male. Yes separation trauma does exist beyond the human species. Species have been shown in countless examples to cooperate with each other rather than always there being an adversarial relationship. Yes, despite denials animal species beyond the human animals species does have emotions and experiences emotional and physical pain.
There is no doubt the vid is shot to express pain, intended to raise awareness of disconnected human behavior, and connecting to our human behavior even if it is uncomfortable to face. I'd rather come to terms with my own human behavior rather than mentally juggling the rationality of it to make it more easily accepted as humanity so often chooses to do.
"Where I learned that to be able to get the quantities of possum down necessary to meet manufacturing demand it is actually a blend with merino wool (to make up volume). A ha! "
possum down is very warm mostly due to the hollow fiber however it is very fragile by itself.
To have some structure you need to blend it with wool and some silk or synthetic fiber.(typically 50-40-10%)
There are over 70 million possums in new Zealand with no known predators.
This is a page from the NZ Government :
http://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/animal-pests/animal-pests-a-z/possums/
theinfamousj
12-08-2016, 18:26
The possum was killed with the first blow. The twitching and relaxing of muscles is what happens after death. The possum wasn't reaching for the ground. Gravity was pulling its limbs from its position of demise.
You always do a second blow/shot (there was a second shot when a gun was later used) as a kindness against suffering in case the first wasn't fatal. But the first in both cases was clearly fatal as the lack of recoil of the animal showed.
I don't hunt but grew up in southern hunting culture and these are things you "just know".
And as I said, there isn't a live anything, baby or mom. Both die. No one mourns.
The video implied, but did not state otherwise. So I went to research since I know that cyanide gas cannot be selective. I found confirmation that all die.
Cyanide isn't a pleasant death nor did I claim it so. But I did claim that at least there is no mourning.
I don't pass ethical or nonethical judgment on the practice of specifically hunting wild possums for their fur. But I see nothing dishonorable about also using the fur of a possum whose whole corpse is put to use.
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They take possum trapping serious in southern NZ. When I did the Milford Track one of the guides mentioned that they all had a trap line as the company paid a bounty on every weasel or possum they caught plus there was prize at the end of the season for the guide who had caught the most. No predators for the non native possums and rabbits. Weasels were introduced to eat the possums but decided the native birds that lay their eggs on the ground are easier prey. Many of the endangered species in NZ had to be relocated to islands to keep them from introduced predators. There is also a fairly large debate going on about feral and cats in general that are not kept indoors. I think they imported a virus that kills only rabbits to cut the rabbit population down.
Reminiscent of the ignorant human tinkering contributing to ecological havoc when non endemic sugar cane crop was introduced into Hawaii with the heralded economic promises given to the Hawaiian people how beneficial it would be ignoring the vast already in limited supply freshwater usage and vermin it would attract. Then the rat population exploded and began to centralize around stored sugar. The 'answer' was, in further human ignorance, import another non endemic species, the mongoose to kill and eat the rats. In another example of man's seemingly infinite ability to display his arrogance and ignorance, touting his often heralded wisdom(scientific or otherwise) and separation from and lofty position above the rest of Nature, failed to recognize rats are mostly nocturnal and mongoose primarily diurnal. The mongoose not eating the rats and not having any natural sufficient in numbers predators on the Islands turned on the native bird population for food decimating and/or contributing to extinction and decline of small populations of native birds. I've seen it occurring not on typical evolutionary timescales but over the last 20 yrs in Hawaii.
Man increases at the expense of decreasing biodiversity. It's happening now.
It's typical for humans to take themselves out of the cause and effect chain of events. It's obvious in bear/human encounter arrogant ignorant human centric stories. The possums in NZ are an introduced BY MAN non endemic species. Humanity has an overwhelming arrogant tendency for self aggrandizement and heightened sense of self importance. Humanity is more inclined to see itself as the solution to the explosion and rampant havoc of the brushy tail possum problem. BUT IT WAS HUMANITY'S ACTIONS THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE! This human centric species view of ignoring human accountability is based on the workd view that the human animal is separated from and above the rest off an ecological whole. It is hubris of the highest order. And, it will result in greater and greater ecological destruction with man eventually turning on each other.
Just like the U.S Dust Bowl
Just like the demise of the native bird populations in Hawaii.
Just like the European rabbit explosions and decimation in Australia when they were introduced BY MAN for food and hunting
Just like the demise of the American Bison, mountain lion, grizzly bear(which used to range the entire western U.S. as little as 120 yrs aqo), eastern wolves, U.S. jaguars, loss of the American Elm, wild horses, demise of eastern wild salmon,....
MuddyWaters
12-08-2016, 19:28
Cyanide isn't a pleasant death nor did I claim it so. But I did claim that at least there is no mourning.
Yes it is.
Hydrogen cyanide prevents oxygen transfer to cells, you simply pass out and dont wake up. Death doesnt get any more pleasant than that. Your body can metabolize a constant 49 ppm in air. Only when exceded will it begin to have cumulative effect.
In the 1930s hcn was a common fumigant. You would put a tent over a house, and put a generator inside. The hcn generator dripped sulfuric acid onto sodium cyanide briquets to make hcn. Come back a day later and air it out. Killed all vermin and pests within the walls of the house. Also used extensively the same way for pest control in orange groves. Liquid hcn was carted around in drums on back of trucks. Boiling pt is78 F, keep it cool or under a little pressure and its a liquid. Not a real good thing to do, but then again so was dynamite.
Hcn has other remarkable properties besides moderate toxicity. The nazi gas chambers gave it a bad reputation. It undergoes runaway polymerization ending in bang if not kept stabilized with sulfuric acid. But too much sulfuric acid stabilizer ends in runaway decomposition and same bang.
Just as a side note, Zpacks doesn't make the possum down gear they sell. They buy the already manufactured products from a company in NZ for resale. This was going to happen whether Zpacks sold them or not.
cmoulder
12-09-2016, 09:32
All I know is that now I want some possum down gloves. :-?
saltysack
12-09-2016, 09:40
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/046945e89842f1ce3ecec105f4e95f4a.jpg
I'm going to start selling down gear made http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/d857ff1eb9bcc43874e192fba0b643f2.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/37b4646a390c6b407f4935087422ec53.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/19569be9b83822360e163fbc6f700496.jpgfrom this guy along with an UL tent made from manatee hide....
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Every time I see a manatee I think, "man, I'll bet those things would be awesome for a Flintstones-size rack of ribs!"
nsherry61
12-09-2016, 11:04
I'm all for using the whole animal too. Let's apply your reasoning to all animals....including the human animal. Soylent HUMAN FOOD made from recycled human protein/dead humans?, HUMAN leather products?, How about no more human coffins, human mummification, or entombment? We need the land for other things! Human fertilizer and fish food? Humans could make good sources of both.
How do you feel about that? :-?
. . . Good!
nsherry61
12-09-2016, 11:24
. . . it will result in greater and greater ecological destruction with man eventually turning on each other. . .
Just like the demise of . . . the American Elm, wild horses . . .
Two thoughts:
1) And what is new or unusual about either "ecological destruction" or "man . . . turning on each other"?
We already turn on each other for all kinds of dubious reasons. And speaking of arrogance, be careful not to suggest that humans are the only species that create ecological destruction. We still have a ways to go (although not as far as I wish we did) to be able to compare ourselves with, for instance, cyanobacteria and oxygenation of our atmosphere.
2) Sure, Dutch Elm disease was brought to N. American through human action, but that catastrophe was not due to human arrogance, just human ignorance.
3) Wild horses are an introduced species, so, I don't see how the demise of wild horses fits into your argument very effectively.
4) Yes, I am nitpicking what I consider an irresponsibly idealized morality regarding irresponsible human actions.
nsherry61
12-09-2016, 11:36
Just as a side note, Zpacks doesn't make the possum down gear they sell. They buy the already manufactured products from a company in NZ for resale. This was going to happen whether Zpacks sold them or not.
Is this supposed to suggest that somehow Zpacks is free of ethical responsibility for the products they sell?
If so, that is exactly the same thing as suggesting that if I make money by playing the middle-man hiring assassins and then taking the money from the people that ordered the assassination, then, I'm not really responsible because, if I didn't coordinate the kill for profit, someone else would.
Please, continue hold our great and noble Zpacks responsible for their actions. And then, quit bad-mouthing a company just because they sell products with animal parts in them unless you're a vegan, and then let's discuss the morality of that in it's own thread.
Puddlefish
12-09-2016, 11:47
+1 on nsherry61's post.
That's some seriously slipperly slope that any of this will result in "greater" instances of ecological distaster, resulting in man turning on man.
In the case of invasive species, all it takes is for one individual to screw up. Then it becomes the communities problem to clean up. In this case, the community of NZ has spoken, they want the things dead.
Animals die in the wild every single day, without human intervention, and they aren't humane deaths. Consider that free range chicken farm where hundreds of chickens are killed each day by eagles. I doubt the chickens have much of a preference if they die relatively humanely, or by eagle. The world isn't a Snow White movie with happy little animals working in cooperation with each other.
lyagooshka
12-09-2016, 12:29
Just a thought on this:
...quit bad-mouthing a company just because they sell products with animal parts in them unless you're a vegan...
Even if you are a Vegan, that doesn't give you any right to badmouth anyone unless they did something wrong.
And doing something you don't like doesn't make it wrong.
So just don't badmouth at all.
Feel free to have an opinion, and talk about it.
After all, we all log into WB to chat and exchange ideas.
As usual, just my $0.02.
saltysack
12-09-2016, 12:30
+1 on nsherry61's post.
That's some seriously slipperly slope that any of this will result in "greater" instances of ecological distaster, resulting in man turning on man.
In the case of invasive species, all it takes is for one individual to screw up. Then it becomes the communities problem to clean up. In this case, the community of NZ has spoken, they want the things dead.
Animals die in the wild every single day, without human intervention, and they aren't humane deaths. Consider that free range chicken farm where hundreds of chickens are killed each day by eagles. I doubt the chickens have much of a preference if they die relatively humanely, or by eagle. The world isn't a Snow White movie with happy little animals working in cooperation with each other.
Hundreds of chickens die per day by eagles....not likely...man has already screwed the eagle population up...
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lyagooshka
12-09-2016, 12:34
Animals die in the wild every single day...
Yup, and ecological disasters happen without us as well.
Just a quick thought experiment, remember the Japanese boat that washed up on the west coast a few years after their tsunami?
Is there anything that says a piece of driftwood carrying an invasive specie (zebra mussels come to mind) couldn't make that same trip and eventually wind up doing the same a ship in port?
More unlikely, sure, but impossible? I doubt it.
Puddlefish
12-09-2016, 12:37
Hundreds of chickens die per day by eagles....not likely...man has already screwed the eagle population up...
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There's one free range farm in particular, with acres of chickens. The eagle population in the area has grown massively... and I can't find the video. Maybe your google skills will be better than mine.
http://www.audubon.org/magazine/fall-2016/an-organic-chicken-farm-georgia-has-become-endless
Sarcasm the elf
12-09-2016, 12:41
Hundreds of chickens die per day by eagles....not likely...man has already screwed the eagle population up...
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That's turning around quickly. Seven years ago I had never seen a bald eagle in CT, now I see them so often that it is almost a common occurance. Unfortunately they've also taken out most of my neighbor's ducks.
cmoulder
12-09-2016, 12:51
I wish we could get them to dine on Canada geese. :mad:
Is this supposed to suggest that somehow Zpacks is free of ethical responsibility for the products they sell? No, it was meant to clarify what seemed to be a misconception regarding the manufacturing of this type of gear.
If so, that is exactly the same thing as suggesting that if I make money by playing the middle-man hiring assassins and then taking the money from the people that ordered the assassination, then, I'm not really responsible because, if I didn't coordinate the kill for profit, someone else would. No, it's not...
Please, continue hold our great and noble Zpacks responsible for their actions. And then, quit bad-mouthing a company just because they sell products with animal parts in them unless you're a vegan, and then let's discuss the morality of that in it's own thread. I'm not even sure where to go with this, your rant isn't making much sense...
Let's keep in mind the fact these animals are invasive predators, doing tremendous harm to the local ecosystem. They were introduced from Australia in the 1830s in with the hope of kicking off the local fur trade. But, as has happened many times when mankind screws with nature's plan, it didn't work out at all as planned. The fact someone has found a useful byproduct from harvesting what is an otherwise harmful non-native species should be viewed a minor positive in an otherwise sad story.
The government of New Zealand has a goal of completely eradicating this animal by 2050. If, as a result of harvesting these animals, a local US owned cottage manufacturer can profit while providing a quality product why is that an issue?
As for the vegan thing, who said anything about that nonsense?
saltysack
12-09-2016, 13:21
That's turning around quickly. Seven years ago I had never seen a bald eagle in CT, now I see them so often that it is almost a common occurance. Unfortunately they've also taken out most of my neighbor's ducks.
I agree totally...in Fl we have the second highest bald eagle population second only to Ak. I see several every day at my office...over the last 5 years my calls have steadily risen with the population increase( I'm volunteer with a raptor rehabilitation center )....they are truly magnificent creatures....however most of the eagle calls are ospreys mistaken as eagles....go figure...http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/e91f6c295ffb3ab556017f50c8fa873b.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/6744f87a6ba6646dc70ee173b087a473.jpg
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saltysack
12-09-2016, 13:27
There's one free range farm in particular, with acres of chickens. The eagle population in the area has grown massively... and I can't find the video. Maybe your google skills will be better than mine.
http://www.audubon.org/magazine/fall-2016/an-organic-chicken-farm-georgia-has-become-endless
Thanks for sharing!
That's bad a$$... they're definitely opportunists....no different than the wolves eating live stock out west....mankind needs to learn to live with nature not against it...I'm impressed how the farmer learned how to turn it around into a profit center with eco tourism......
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Sarcasm the elf
12-09-2016, 13:27
I agree totally...in Fl we have the second highest bald eagle population second only to Ak. I see several every day at my office...over the last 5 years my calls have steadily risen with the population increase( I'm volunteer with a raptor rehabilitation center )....they are truly magnificent creatures....however most of the eagle calls are ospreys mistaken as eagles....go figure...http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/e91f6c295ffb3ab556017f50c8fa873b.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161209/6744f87a6ba6646dc70ee173b087a473.jpg
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That sounds like an awesome volunteer gig!
I was going to make a comment about how ridiculous it is to mistake an osprey for a bald eagle, but then I remembered how often people are convinced that the bobcat they just saw was really a mountain lion.
I don't find anything particularly cruel about it. They seem to put the animals down quickly. I took a winter canoe trip a couple years ago and ran across a few traps on the riverbank. While we were sitting on the riverbank cooking our breakfast the trapper went by in his canoe. After breakfast we packed up and got back on the river. Because he was stopping every couple hundred yards checking his traps we quickly passed him. As we progressed down the river we saw 3 raccoons in traps...a few minutes after we passed each one we heard a single shot.
And the gloves are outstanding. No animals were harmed in the typing of this reply.
Old Grouse
12-09-2016, 15:40
I've lost chickens to hawks, and I'm not volunteering another one, but having one taken by an eagle would certainly be something to see.
MuddyWaters
12-09-2016, 15:59
In louisiana wildlife dept pays a bounty of $5 for each nutria tail. The large non native fur bearing rodents cause land loss by damaging levee and marsh banks with burrows and grazing. no ones too concerned about their pain.
Brought to raise for fur, they escaped and thrive in marsh. Absence of fur market today dont help the cause. Attempt to commercialize the meat largely failed too. Its a large rat for petes sake. So...pay people to kill them works
saltysack
12-09-2016, 16:30
In louisiana wildlife dept pays a bounty of $5 for each nutria tail. The large non native fur bearing rodents cause land loss by damaging levee and marsh banks with burrows and grazing. no ones too concerned about their pain.
Brought to raise for fur, they escaped and thrive in marsh. Absence of fur market today dont help the cause. Attempt to commercialize the meat largely failed too. Its a large rat for petes sake. So...pay people to kill them works
It's amazing with all the gators in LA the nutria thrive! They feed the captive gators and crocs at the alligator farm nutria...I have a friend who found a nutria as a baby the damb thing thinks it's a dog!!!
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Does your friend think the nutria is a dog or does the nutria behave like a dog ?
These are the eagles that fly over my place :
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/DSC03893_zpspxb56sth.jpg
that is one of a pair, the mate is about 150' to the left waiting for this one to finish a fight with a parrot. The parrot outmaneuvered the eagle. About 9' wingspan.
MuddyWaters
12-09-2016, 18:06
It's amazing with all the gators in LA the nutria thrive! They feed the captive gators and crocs at the alligator farm nutria...I have a friend who found a nutria as a baby the damb thing thinks it's a dog!!!
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Rats are intelligent , learn their name, and make really good pets, or so Ive been told. So maybe not too surprising.
I went to college at LSU. Buddy of mine had a romantic interlude one night on levee by the Mississippi River with a girl he had been pursuing , and was interrupted by an errant nutria that killed the mood.
Became his new nickname, to this day.
saltysack
12-09-2016, 18:43
Does your friend think the nutria is a dog or does the nutria behave like a dog ?
These are the eagles that fly over my place :
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e389/Francophoto/DSC03893_zpspxb56sth.jpg
that is one of a pair, the mate is about 150' to the left waiting for this one to finish a fight with a parrot. The parrot outmaneuvered the eagle. About 9' wingspan.
I just realized you weren't in the states.....parrot should have given it away. What kind of eagles do y'all have down under? As MW said nutria are smart. It comes when called and uses a doggie door at her house.
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Soggybottom
12-09-2016, 20:25
It is not the opossum from America and it is an invasive species in New Zealand. The gloves are made with merino wool plus the hollow hairs of the possum.
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Five Tango
12-09-2016, 20:31
It is not the opossum from America and it is an invasive species in New Zealand. The gloves are made with merino wool plus the hollow hairs of the possum.
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I don't have a dog in this fight.All I know is I love my possum down hat,gloves,and socks;especially the socks.
Soggybottom
12-09-2016, 20:32
I don't have a dog in this fight.All I know is I love my possum down hat,gloves,and socks;especially the socks.
I want a pair!!
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jj dont play
12-10-2016, 01:14
In louisiana wildlife dept pays a bounty of $5 for each nutria tail. The large non native fur bearing rodents cause land loss by damaging levee and marsh banks with burrows and grazing. no ones too concerned about their pain.
Brought to raise for fur, they escaped and thrive in marsh. Absence of fur market today dont help the cause. Attempt to commercialize the meat largely failed too. Its a large rat for petes sake. So...pay people to kill them works
And they aren't just in the Marsh they are in city ditches too, in neighborhoods and pretty much anywhere there's water. The there's the wild hog which has really taken off and noticeably hurt the deer population on property my family owns and public lands I hunt. Then the grass carp,fire ants, kudzu, Chinese tallow and plenty more that I'm leaving out that some idiot thought was a good idea to bring down here.
Invasive species suck but invasive species aside hunting/trapping isn't always pretty. So if you can get rid of them and make $$ that's a bonus, plus the money making promotes more people to target them.
Poisoning isn't legal here but they are working on a substance that will one affect pigs, yea at first it seems cruel but if you've seen the destruction first hand and no what an area was like before they came along and what it's like now then you understand something needs to happen.
Americans are really bad at being disconnected from the source of their food,fur,etc. They see a Big Mac and not the cow it came from.
The video wasn't pretty but it was as ethical as it gets. And those animals got to live a life out in the wilderness rather than shoulder to shoulder in some pen.
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jjozgrunt
12-10-2016, 02:59
I just realized you weren't in the states.....parrot should have given it away. What kind of eagles do y'all have down under? As MW said nutria are smart. It comes when called and uses a doggie door at her house.
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Sorry everyone but I couldn't resist posting this.
37365
To get back to the possum thing. I use the gloves and beanie, warmest to weight thing except down, that I have tried. Being both wool and fur keep you warm even when wet. I have been using a pair of the hiking socks for a while even in our current high temperatures and they are very good. Not sure they would stand up to a long through hike though. I have a sleep pair as well but I try not to use them as I like my feet to air out overnight. They do come in handy though for very cold nights.
Sorry everyone but I couldn't resist posting this.
37365...
Oh, it's on now, when does your thru hike start next year? :p
saltysack
those are wedge tail eagles.
BTW, I have several items made with the possum down mix, all very warm for the weight and still warm when wet.
One night I woke up with a wet patch next to my mat. I then realised that my possum down gloves were saturated something that should have been obvious since we walked a few hours in freezing cold heavy showers (Tasmania...) I started to carry a pair of very light first generation GoreTex mittens after that. The combo works well in winter for me.
jjozgrunt
12-10-2016, 09:02
Oh, it's on now, when does your thru hike start next year? :p
13th Mar, hope the date is not an omen. See ya on the trail. :D
saltysack
12-10-2016, 11:07
And they aren't just in the Marsh they are in city ditches too, in neighborhoods and pretty much anywhere there's water. The there's the wild hog which has really taken off and noticeably hurt the deer population on property my family owns and public lands I hunt. Then the grass carp,fire ants, kudzu, Chinese tallow and plenty more that I'm leaving out that some idiot thought was a good idea to bring down here.
Invasive species suck but invasive species aside hunting/trapping isn't always pretty. So if you can get rid of them and make $$ that's a bonus, plus the money making promotes more people to target them.
Poisoning isn't legal here but they are working on a substance that will one affect pigs, yea at first it seems cruel but if you've seen the destruction first hand and no what an area was like before they came along and what it's like now then you understand something needs to happen.
Americans are really bad at being disconnected from the source of their food,fur,etc. They see a Big Mac and not the cow it came from.
The video wasn't pretty but it was as ethical as it gets. And those animals got to live a life out in the wilderness rather than shoulder to shoulder in some pen.
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I get it though its doubtful a "Big Mac" actually comes from a cow...
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Sarcasm the elf
12-10-2016, 11:11
Sorry everyone but I couldn't resist posting this.
37365
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder759/500x/65950759.jpg
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/imagebuzz/web04/2011/3/22/19/koala-vs-grizzly-8314-1300838140-36.jpg
:D
jj dont play
12-10-2016, 11:15
I get it though its doubtful a "Big Mac" actually comes from a cow...
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Haha true I guess I could have used a better example
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Sarcasm the elf
12-10-2016, 11:23
I get it though its doubtful a "Big Mac" actually comes from a cow...
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The bizzare truth is Big Macs don't come from "a cow" they come from many. Over the years groups have set big macs to labs for analysis and Often a single patty contains meat from several hundred to over a thousand individual cattle.
They are also delicious.
TexasBob
12-10-2016, 11:37
........
Also, as a chemist the cyanide textual overlay made me roll my eyes. Of course that is how cyanide kills mammals. The trope of the spy with the cyanide capsule tooth is well played out. The spy would experience the same.
But here is where I am confused: cyanide is a gas so in order to gas the possum, don't you also have to gas its clinging babies? Why suggest that they are living as that simply defeats credibility? Cyanide doesn't know it is supposed to only be inhaled by one animal out of a group. It isn't sentient. .......
They are using baits with the poison 1080 (sodium fluoroacetate) not cyanide. Read about it here - http://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/pests-and-threats/animal-pests/methods-of-control/1080-poison-for-pest-control/ . 1080 baits were used for predator control (coyotes) here in the US but that has been stopped.
saltysack
12-10-2016, 11:50
Side track again but another example of how cruel nature can be!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161210/4adbc1c2c88279e041eac392f602b1a6.pnghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161210/b958fc2b0db0eb08b768e35ee0040e4d.jpg
Yep...egret tried to eat the snake.....
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egret with regret
one spotted my goldfish Bob who was under a thick net and under tree ferns (like mini palms)
the neighbour's cat (now my cat) spotted the bird and chased him out the yard and along the driveway , about 30 yards.
very funny except that in a previous backyard another egret ate 13 of my goldfish over a period of two years. I suspected the local cats till I spotted the bird taking the one before the last (Bob..)
rocketsocks
12-11-2016, 01:27
Side track again but another example of how cruel nature can be!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161210/4adbc1c2c88279e041eac392f602b1a6.pnghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161210/b958fc2b0db0eb08b768e35ee0040e4d.jpg
Yep...egret tried to eat the snake.....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalki like it...a lot! LOL
In louisiana wildlife dept pays a bounty of $5 for each nutria tail. The large non native fur bearing rodents cause land loss by damaging levee and marsh banks with burrows and grazing. no ones too concerned about their pain.
Brought to raise for fur, they escaped and thrive in marsh. Absence of fur market today dont help the cause. Attempt to commercialize the meat largely failed too. Its a large rat for petes sake. So...pay people to kill them works
Another story of narrow human centric human tinkering that went out of control because arrogant humanity fails to recognize a larger ecological whole. For all the patting on the backs the human species likes to constantly give ourselves no wonder the animal problem stories like the nutria often ignore the role of humans in making it occur. Just like the Golden brushy tail possums in NZ, mongoose in Hawaii, European rabbits in Australia, the nutria was another non endemic species brought to a place they din't naturally occur - N America - for narrow minded human centric reasons...the fur trade.
The bald eagle recovery - a success story of what humanity is capable of when they recognize a larger ecological whole by honestly considering and then changing their behavior.
We like to see the Bald Eagle as a majestic, proud, strong, courageous, bold, confident, attractive symbol with a pure white adult plumage atop its head and at it's tail....until you regularly see 4 of them at the Lee County FL Dump dirty, greasy, bloody, pecked at and hen bit, cowering, missing feathers relegated to being another scavenger eating garbage that is picked on and tormented by the larger stronger sea gulls also scavenging for scraps.
saltysack
12-11-2016, 07:52
We like to see the Bald Eagle as a majestic, proud, strong, courageous, bold, confident, attractive symbol with a pure white adult plumage atop its head and at it's tail....until you regularly see 4 of them at the Lee County FL Dump dirty, greasy, bloody, pecked at and hen bit, cowering, missing feathers relegated to being another scavenger eating garbage that is picked on and tormented by the larger stronger sea gulls also scavenging for scraps.
Yep been to the dump many times to get them...sad but no different than the bears at the dumps....they are scavengers and will eat about anything....
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saltysack
12-29-2016, 13:37
Up for grabs......http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161229/a19e5d6c9a3b2eab161547f505c52331.jpg
Yes it died from old age....
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Tipi Walter
12-29-2016, 14:13
I came home from a backpacking trip in 2008 and found a dead possum who got his teeth hung up in a suet bird feeder---with mighty Shunka looking on---Oops.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Trip-72/i-jMDkwmB/0/L/Trip%2072%20002-L.jpg
Gambit McCrae
12-29-2016, 14:13
37664
iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiii
saltysack
12-29-2016, 16:10
I came home from a backpacking trip in 2008 and found a dead possum who got his teeth hung up in a suet bird feeder---with mighty Shunka looking on---Oops.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Trip-72/i-jMDkwmB/0/L/Trip%2072%20002-L.jpg
That bird feeder is now a buzzard feeder...[emoji3]the nastiest sight and smell was a pair of coons that got inside a crab trap at low tide and got stuck...they drowned and took weeks to find the smell....only stunk at low tide....I can still taste it.....
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rocketsocks
12-29-2016, 16:15
Is fly ash ethical from a process plant at spews toxins into the air so we can have all sorts of things? Electronic devices, rubber, chemical compounds that make just about everything in society...etc, etc.
gravitino
12-29-2016, 19:47
Wow, I am so disappointed at the level of intelligence displayed in this thread!
It is clear that the video depicts a cruel act. The rest is justification. You may call it necessary, you may defend it in the name of ecology or whatever, but you cannot deny that the act itself is cruel. If you don't find it cruel it is because your moral compass is broken - plain as daylight.
And for those of you spouting about ethics, how about the simple "do unto others?" Place yourself in the paws of the possum. Would you like to have somebody hammer your brain into oblivion? No, really, would you?!
Something stinks to high heaven, when such bestial and inhuman behavior is accepted with such a cavalier attitude and commented on with such callousness!
reminds me of a riddle -
Q: how many rednecks does it take to eat a possum?
A: two, one to do the eating and the other to stop traffic
Wow, I am so disappointed at the level of intelligence displayed in this thread!
It is clear that the video depicts a cruel act. The rest is justification. You may call it necessary, you may defend it in the name of ecology or whatever, but you cannot deny that the act itself is cruel. If you don't find it cruel it is because your moral compass is broken - plain as daylight.
And for those of you spouting about ethics, how about the simple "do unto others?" Place yourself in the paws of the possum. Would you like to have somebody hammer your brain into oblivion? No, really, would you?!
Something stinks to high heaven, when such bestial and inhuman behavior is accepted with such a cavalier attitude and commented on with such callousness!
Be still my heart...
rocketsocks
12-30-2016, 07:20
Wow, I am so disappointed at the level of intelligence displayed in this thread!
It is clear that the video depicts a cruel act. The rest is justification. You may call it necessary, you may defend it in the name of ecology or whatever, but you cannot deny that the act itself is cruel. If you don't find it cruel it is because your moral compass is broken - plain as daylight.
And for those of you spouting about ethics, how about the simple "do unto others?" Place yourself in the paws of the possum. Would you like to have somebody hammer your brain into oblivion? No, really, would you?!
Something stinks to high heaven, when such bestial and inhuman behavior is accepted with such a cavalier attitude and commented on with such callousness!which is exactly why I didn't watch it, but if someone wants to take a possum for gloves, then that's on them to decide the ethics, not some clown college fourm.
Traveler
12-30-2016, 08:16
Morality is subjective. Outrage is selective. Ethics are elective.
halvedspeed
12-30-2016, 12:46
Murderers. I'll never buy anything from zpacks until they remove it.
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Sarcasm the elf
12-30-2016, 13:06
Murderers. I'll never buy anything from zpacks until they remove it.
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You should see how many cubens they have to kill to get enough fiber for just one of their tents...
saltysack
12-30-2016, 13:37
You should see how many cubens they have to kill to get enough fiber for just one of their tents...
Haaaaaa!!!!! [emoji1083] I want an authentic Castro skin Duplex......
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MuddyWaters
12-30-2016, 13:42
Wow, I am so disappointed at the level of intelligence displayed in this thread!
It is clear that the video depicts a cruel act. The rest is justification. You may call it necessary, you may defend it in the name of ecology or whatever, but you cannot deny that the act itself is cruel. If you don't find it cruel it is because your moral compass is broken - plain as daylight.
And for those of you spouting about ethics, how about the simple "do unto others?" Place yourself in the paws of the possum. Would you like to have somebody hammer your brain into oblivion? No, really, would you?!
Something stinks to high heaven, when such bestial and inhuman behavior is accepted with such a cavalier attitude and commented on with such callousness!
You are simply equating killing, and cruelty. They are not the same.
Once you have decided to kill something, doing so as quickly and efficiently as you can, so it doesnt suffer, isnt cruel, its considerate.
Doesnt matter if its a bullet to brain, wringing its neck, or smashing its head with a hammer.
Killing is part of life. Animals are harvested for their meat, fur, skins. All day, every day. Most are raised or managed specifically to be killed one day. If it seems violent or such, someone has probably led a very sheltered life.
Ever been fishing, thrown a live fish in cooler and let it die slowly over hours? which is more considerate?
halvedspeed
12-30-2016, 18:31
Okay let me shoot you in the head and feast on your flesh. Is that violent? Is it cruel?
These animals have a prefrontal cortex. They have emotion, relationships, families, and fight to stay alive just like you do. If an alien species wanted to use our skins for their fancy chairs you would fight to the death trying to stop them.
Killing does not have to be a part of life. Animals don't need to be raised just to be killed.
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rocketsocks
12-30-2016, 18:34
You are simply equating killing, and cruelty. They are not the same.
Once you have decided to kill something, doing so as quickly and efficiently as you can, so it doesnt suffer, isnt cruel, its considerate.
Doesnt matter if its a bullet to brain, wringing its neck, or smashing its head with a hammer.
Killing is part of life. Animals are harvested for their meat, fur, skins. All day, every day. Most are raised or managed specifically to be killed one day. If it seems violent or such, someone has probably led a very sheltered life.
Ever been fishing, thrown a live fish in cooler and let it die slowly over hours? which is more considerate?this^^^^^^^^^^
Okay let me shoot you in the head and feast on your flesh. Is that violent? Is it cruel?
These animals have a prefrontal cortex. They have emotion, relationships, families, and fight to stay alive just like you do. If an alien species wanted to use our skins for their fancy chairs you would fight to the death trying to stop them.
Killing does not have to be a part of life. Animals don't need to be raised just to be killed.
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Plants have feelings too. You're gonna get awful skinny not wanting to hurt anything.
halvedspeed
12-30-2016, 20:51
Plants don't have a nervous system. I'm quite fat.
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Okay let me shoot you in the head and feast on your flesh. Is that violent? Is it cruel?
These animals have a prefrontal cortex. They have emotion, relationships, families, and fight to stay alive just like you do. If an alien species wanted to use our skins for their fancy chairs you would fight to the death trying to stop them.
Killing does not have to be a part of life...Animals don't need to be raised just to be killed.
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Some actual science which refutes your stance...
http://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html
http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html
http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/
Eating meat is how we got here. And if you don't believe in evolution and lean more toward creationism, take a look at Leviticus...
I understand the emotional response to killing an animal. I've been hunting since I was young, and I've never felt good about the death of any animal I harvested, but I was thankful for what it provided. Would I go club a baby fur seal in the head to get it's pelt? No, I would not, but as MuddyWaters pointed out, that would be cruel and unnecessary. But, in this instance, we are discussing an artificially introduced non-native species which is doing a great deal of harm to the local ecosystem. They aren't "raised just to be killed". The removal of the possum from that area is necessary and since they won't leave when asked nicely, people are forced to kill them. The possum down byproduct means that something worthwhile results from killing them...
MuddyWaters
12-31-2016, 07:13
I can respect someone wanting to adhere to certain ideals.
But those ideals today are only possible in a very defined civilized setting, and only because innumerable animals throughout history have been hunted or raised and slaughtered to bring humankind to this point.
Much of world still lives a rural impoverished lifestyle , raising goats, sheep, chickens, etc for food. They dont have the benefit of driving down to Whole Foods for tofu, soy milk, or almond meal. Their primary concern is not starving, and getting some rudimentary healthcare.
kevperro
12-31-2016, 14:08
I love that episode on "The Walking Dead" where they harvest humans for food. The guy is standing there with the baseball bat smacking them in the back of the skull while the other guy cuts their throats and lets them bleed out into the stainless vessel. Then a few episodes later they capture Bob, amputate his leg and then tourniquet it, to keep him alive then proceed to cook and eat his leg while having a conversation with him.
Plants don't have a nervous system. I'm quite fat.
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For your enlightenment:
http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/features/152208/do-plants-have-brains
halvedspeed
01-01-2017, 11:37
Oh for crying out loud dude. I was going to just leave it alone.
Not a single one of those articles is science at all. They aren't written by scienticists, and the people they are quoting are halfwit anthropologist who are taking guesses, not doing ANY scientific research.
- There is proof change in diet, they discovered fire. But they were still omnivores the whole time. And a vast majority of plants do not give forth useable nutrients to us unless cooked. The one thing that our gigantic brains needed more than anything to function was GLUCOSE. That's it's fuel. When you cook cellulose you get glucose and lots of it. Yes it needs protein and fats, but if you believe that you can't have a big brain on a vegetarian diet, then all children raised in vegetarian households should be brain dead. All the building blocks in the brain (and body for that matter) are found in plants. And if you look at predominately vegetarian primates, their long intestines are way longer than ours because they can't cook cellulose. ( There should have been evolutionary pressure not to eat meat. Vegans and vegetarians don't get strokes and heart attacks nearly as often, and we live 4 years longer on average [emoji14] )
- if you so fervently believe in evolution, and claim I do not, perhaps take a look at a entirely more believable evolutionary reasoning for such big brain- THE ONE THAT IS EXCEPTED AS SCIENCE THE WHOLE WORLD OVER.At the time there were about a dozen hominid species running around and clubbing everything that moved and pillaging. The dumb ones that couldn't make tools were killed off. Then the ones that didn't make fire were killed off. But the biggest evolutionary win was language. Our brains (specifically the prefrontal cortex) are designed for high level interactions with other creatures. Now we believe that about 4-5 hominid species has the ability to speak languages. They created cities and burried their dead in religious fashion.
The brain game ramped up speed and evolution chose the winner. Whoever was the smartest most efficient won. (Intelligence also has nothing to do with brain sizes, see elephants, or even female vs male human brains)
Obviously, we won by running around raping and killing everything that walked on two legs as you can see Neanderthal DNA in our genome. We were the best at language, tool making, infrastructure etc. There IS scientific evidence of that whole situation happening unlike the mere conjecture that big brains require meat.
- oh ffs seriously with the plants? Now reaction to stimiuli is having a brain? Give me a break. Again- that article is not science. Any botanist worth their salt will never ever say that plants have brains or could ever become anywhere near sentient.
And again its just assuming glutamate channels=brain. Sea sponges are our genetic ancestor. They gave us our Cannabinoid receptors. But they use it to regulate their homeostasis.
We use it to help reduce cortisol levels when dealing with annoying pseudoscience. ;)
If you want me to source anything I will. I just don't have the time to produce the hundreds of evolutionary biology/psychology and neuroscience journals that I just used.
And to wrap up. You live in an industrialized economy with a hyper abundance of food. There is no genetic, evolutionary, dietary reason to eat meat anymore. I grant that indigenous people still need their goats and chickens to survive but you most certainly do not.
Perhaps humans will all evolve someday to realize that killing does not have to be a part of life for us anymore. Human discovered the higgs boson, we are certainly smart enough to come up with sane, ethical ways to deal with silly invasive possums -_-
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halvedspeed
01-01-2017, 11:47
Accepted not expected* got a little ragey and out of control there.
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MuddyWaters
01-01-2017, 12:01
And to wrap up. You live in an industrialized economy with a hyper abundance of food. There is no genetic, evolutionary, dietary reason to eat meat anymore. I grant that indigenous people still need their goats and chickens to survive but you most certainly do not.
Perhaps humans will all evolve someday to realize that killing does not have to be a part of life for us anymore. Human discovered the higgs boson, we are certainly smart enough to come up with sane, ethical ways to deal with silly invasive possums -_-
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I like eating animals.
They taste good.
My dogs and cat agree with me.
halvedspeed
01-01-2017, 12:02
Glad to hear you're on their level.
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AfterParty
01-01-2017, 12:18
I guess one could become a possom whisperer and convince them to leave or stop making babies.
squeezebox
01-01-2017, 12:24
Baby glucose murderer!!!
MuddyWaters
01-01-2017, 12:25
I guess one could become a possom whisperer and convince them to leave or stop making babies.
OR...round up all the people that protest, and send them to catch them , neuter them, and bring them home as pets
Maybe leave out tiny condoms for the ones they cant catch.
greensleep
01-01-2017, 12:46
( Vegans and vegetarians don't get strokes and heart attacks nearly as often, and we live 4 years longer on average [emoji14] )
There are many confounding factors in the equation of living longer. People who define themselves as Vegan probably tend to have a lifestyle which includes exercise, moderation in alcohol consumption, no smoking, and other behavior choices that enable longevity. To imply that a vegan diet is the root of long life is ingenuous. A plant based diet(not necessarily vegan) is, most likely, a healthy diet; to consider long life, one must factor in exercise, attitude/behavior, environment, and genetics.
kevperro
01-01-2017, 13:06
"Perhaps humans will all evolve someday to realize that killing does not have to be a part of life for us anymore. Human discovered the higgs boson, we are certainly smart enough to come up with sane, ethical ways to deal with silly invasive possums."
Evolution requires selective pressure. I'm betting that the birth rate for vegetarians is much lower than it is for carnivores. I don't think how smart we are as a species has much to do with what we eventually become as a species.....other than extinct. Intelligence is probably an evolutionary dead-end street.
I don't have a bit of problem with possum down gloves, down filled sleeping bags, tuna in foil pouches, or that great turkey burger they serve at the Doyle.
Oh for crying out loud dude. I was going to just leave it alone.
Not a single one of those articles is science at all. They aren't written by scienticists, and the people they are quoting are halfwit anthropologist who are taking guesses, not doing ANY scientific research.
- There is proof change in diet, they discovered fire. But they were still omnivores the whole time. And a vast majority of plants do not give forth useable nutrients to us unless cooked. The one thing that our gigantic brains needed more than anything to function was GLUCOSE. That's it's fuel. When you cook cellulose you get glucose and lots of it. Yes it needs protein and fats, but if you believe that you can't have a big brain on a vegetarian diet, then all children raised in vegetarian households should be brain dead. All the building blocks in the brain (and body for that matter) are found in plants. And if you look at predominately vegetarian primates, their long intestines are way longer than ours because they can't cook cellulose. ( There should have been evolutionary pressure not to eat meat. Vegans and vegetarians don't get strokes and heart attacks nearly as often, and we live 4 years longer on average [emoji14] )
- if you so fervently believe in evolution, and claim I do not, perhaps take a look at a entirely more believable evolutionary reasoning for such big brain- THE ONE THAT IS EXCEPTED AS SCIENCE THE WHOLE WORLD OVER.At the time there were about a dozen hominid species running around and clubbing everything that moved and pillaging. The dumb ones that couldn't make tools were killed off. Then the ones that didn't make fire were killed off. But the biggest evolutionary win was language. Our brains (specifically the prefrontal cortex) are designed for high level interactions with other creatures. Now we believe that about 4-5 hominid species has the ability to speak languages. They created cities and burried their dead in religious fashion.
The brain game ramped up speed and evolution chose the winner. Whoever was the smartest most efficient won. (Intelligence also has nothing to do with brain sizes, see elephants, or even female vs male human brains)
Obviously, we won by running around raping and killing everything that walked on two legs as you can see Neanderthal DNA in our genome. We were the best at language, tool making, infrastructure etc. There IS scientific evidence of that whole situation happening unlike the mere conjecture that big brains require meat.
- oh ffs seriously with the plants? Now reaction to stimiuli is having a brain? Give me a break. Again- that article is not science. Any botanist worth their salt will never ever say that plants have brains or could ever become anywhere near sentient.
And again its just assuming glutamate channels=brain. Sea sponges are our genetic ancestor. They gave us our Cannabinoid receptors. But they use it to regulate their homeostasis.
We use it to help reduce cortisol levels when dealing with annoying pseudoscience. ;)
If you want me to source anything I will. I just don't have the time to produce the hundreds of evolutionary biology/psychology and neuroscience journals that I just used.
And to wrap up. You live in an industrialized economy with a hyper abundance of food. There is no genetic, evolutionary, dietary reason to eat meat anymore. I grant that indigenous people still need their goats and chickens to survive but you most certainly do not.
Perhaps humans will all evolve someday to realize that killing does not have to be a part of life for us anymore. Human discovered the higgs boson, we are certainly smart enough to come up with sane, ethical ways to deal with silly invasive possums -_-
Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
If you wish to believe something that supports your vegan nature, so be it...no skin off my back.
lyagooshka
03-01-2017, 14:46
Oh for crying out loud dude. I was going to just leave it alone.
Not a single one of those articles is science at all. They aren't written by scienticists, and the people they are quoting are halfwit anthropologist who are taking guesses, not doing ANY scientific research.
- There is proof change in diet, they discovered fire. But they were still omnivores the whole time. And a vast majority of plants do not give forth useable nutrients to us unless cooked. The one thing that our gigantic brains needed more than anything to function was GLUCOSE. That's it's fuel. When you cook cellulose you get glucose and lots of it. Yes it needs protein and fats, but if you believe that you can't have a big brain on a vegetarian diet, then all children raised in vegetarian households should be brain dead. All the building blocks in the brain (and body for that matter) are found in plants. And if you look at predominately vegetarian primates, their long intestines are way longer than ours because they can't cook cellulose. ( There should have been evolutionary pressure not to eat meat. Vegans and vegetarians don't get strokes and heart attacks nearly as often, and we live 4 years longer on average [emoji14] )
- if you so fervently believe in evolution, and claim I do not, perhaps take a look at a entirely more believable evolutionary reasoning for such big brain- THE ONE THAT IS EXCEPTED AS SCIENCE THE WHOLE WORLD OVER.At the time there were about a dozen hominid species running around and clubbing everything that moved and pillaging. The dumb ones that couldn't make tools were killed off. Then the ones that didn't make fire were killed off. But the biggest evolutionary win was language. Our brains (specifically the prefrontal cortex) are designed for high level interactions with other creatures. Now we believe that about 4-5 hominid species has the ability to speak languages. They created cities and burried their dead in religious fashion.
The brain game ramped up speed and evolution chose the winner. Whoever was the smartest most efficient won. (Intelligence also has nothing to do with brain sizes, see elephants, or even female vs male human brains)
Obviously, we won by running around raping and killing everything that walked on two legs as you can see Neanderthal DNA in our genome. We were the best at language, tool making, infrastructure etc. There IS scientific evidence of that whole situation happening unlike the mere conjecture that big brains require meat.
- oh ffs seriously with the plants? Now reaction to stimiuli is having a brain? Give me a break. Again- that article is not science. Any botanist worth their salt will never ever say that plants have brains or could ever become anywhere near sentient.
And again its just assuming glutamate channels=brain. Sea sponges are our genetic ancestor. They gave us our Cannabinoid receptors. But they use it to regulate their homeostasis.
We use it to help reduce cortisol levels when dealing with annoying pseudoscience. ;)
If you want me to source anything I will. I just don't have the time to produce the hundreds of evolutionary biology/psychology and neuroscience journals that I just used.
And to wrap up. You live in an industrialized economy with a hyper abundance of food. There is no genetic, evolutionary, dietary reason to eat meat anymore. I grant that indigenous people still need their goats and chickens to survive but you most certainly do not.
Perhaps humans will all evolve someday to realize that killing does not have to be a part of life for us anymore. Human discovered the higgs boson, we are certainly smart enough to come up with sane, ethical ways to deal with silly invasive possums -_-
Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
Ok, I'm just going to ask for citations for the above as there is ZERO evidence to prove any of it.
I have searched PUBMED and found NOTHING.
I found plenty of junk science on PETA-type sites, but nothing that would EVER qualify as science.
Vegan is an incomplete diet, period.
That is why any physician who doesn't want to get sued will put Vegans on a supplement.
Heck, some physicians even refuse to treat Vegans.
Vegetarians are not the same as Vegans, so they can get away with milk and egg products, though still not 100% complete.
BTW: you know what I did find on PUBMED?
Almost unanimous agreement to something like, "therefore it can be concluded that there is no proof that saturated (animal) fat or animal protein lead to ANY disease".
And these are NOT studies sponsored by the beef industry or anything of the sort.
Only independent studies done and published in JAMA, JON, NEJOM, etc.
Seriously, I am all for doing whatever you want, but there is way too much junk science out there.
So if you want to be Vegan, knock yourself out.
But don't tell people that it's superior to ANY diet, when it's by definition incomplete (B vitamins, COMPLETE proteins, etc.) and all science shows otherwise.
See you at the Lehigh Gap sometime!
ImAfraidOfBears
03-01-2017, 15:51
If you want me to source anything I will. I just don't have the time to produce the hundreds of evolutionary biology/psychology and neuroscience journals that I just used.
Why don't you just say thousands? It sounds about as ridiculous and unbelievable.
I think most vegans get unfairly labeled as zealots because of their beliefs, but it's posts like these that reinforce the stereotype. Rampant proselytizing and presenting misinformation as accepted truth.
Odd that vegetarians/vegans would object to the culling of possums in New Zealand given that they are responsible for destroying vegetation , eating eggs of birds in decline already as well as spreading bovine tuberculosis.
Another case of people that don't know, pretending that they do.
This is a kea, one of the birds endangered by possums (BTW, a very clever bird , don't leave your pack unattended...)
38444
and this is the typical damage left by possums :
38445
38446
This is one of the funniest threads I've read in a while, not sure how I missed it originally. Surprised to see there a couple of other Louisiana residents posting on white blaze. Carry on with the posting, I've got to head home and get ready to fry some fresh, never frozen speckled trout.
For the few (...) that have not seen a kea in action , here it is :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxoCuRuHlt8
for the ones that have not read my previous comment, the introduced possums eat kea's eggs.
rocketsocks
03-02-2017, 08:46
Yes, but can a Kia be juggle?
Oh for crying out loud dude. I was going to just leave it alone.
Not a single one of those articles is science at all. They aren't written by scienticists, and the people they are quoting are halfwit anthropologist who are taking guesses, not doing ANY scientific research.
- There is proof change in diet, they discovered fire. But they were still omnivores the whole time. And a vast majority of plants do not give forth useable nutrients to us unless cooked. The one thing that our gigantic brains needed more than anything to function was GLUCOSE. That's it's fuel. When you cook cellulose you get glucose and lots of it. Yes it needs protein and fats, but if you believe that you can't have a big brain on a vegetarian diet, then all children raised in vegetarian households should be brain dead. All the building blocks in the brain (and body for that matter) are found in plants. And if you look at predominately vegetarian primates, their long intestines are way longer than ours because they can't cook cellulose. ( There should have been evolutionary pressure not to eat meat. Vegans and vegetarians don't get strokes and heart attacks nearly as often, and we live 4 years longer on average [emoji14] )
- if you so fervently believe in evolution, and claim I do not, perhaps take a look at a entirely more believable evolutionary reasoning for such big brain- THE ONE THAT IS EXCEPTED AS SCIENCE THE WHOLE WORLD OVER.At the time there were about a dozen hominid species running around and clubbing everything that moved and pillaging. The dumb ones that couldn't make tools were killed off. Then the ones that didn't make fire were killed off. But the biggest evolutionary win was language. Our brains (specifically the prefrontal cortex) are designed for high level interactions with other creatures. Now we believe that about 4-5 hominid species has the ability to speak languages. They created cities and burried their dead in religious fashion.
The brain game ramped up speed and evolution chose the winner. Whoever was the smartest most efficient won. (Intelligence also has nothing to do with brain sizes, see elephants, or even female vs male human brains)
Obviously, we won by running around raping and killing everything that walked on two legs as you can see Neanderthal DNA in our genome. We were the best at language, tool making, infrastructure etc. There IS scientific evidence of that whole situation happening unlike the mere conjecture that big brains require meat.
- oh ffs seriously with the plants? Now reaction to stimiuli is having a brain? Give me a break. Again- that article is not science. Any botanist worth their salt will never ever say that plants have brains or could ever become anywhere near sentient.
And again its just assuming glutamate channels=brain. Sea sponges are our genetic ancestor. They gave us our Cannabinoid receptors. But they use it to regulate their homeostasis.
We use it to help reduce cortisol levels when dealing with annoying pseudoscience. ;)
If you want me to source anything I will. I just don't have the time to produce the hundreds of evolutionary biology/psychology and neuroscience journals that I just used.
And to wrap up. You live in an industrialized economy with a hyper abundance of food. There is no genetic, evolutionary, dietary reason to eat meat anymore. I grant that indigenous people still need their goats and chickens to survive but you most certainly do not.
Perhaps humans will all evolve someday to realize that killing does not have to be a part of life for us anymore. Human discovered the higgs boson, we are certainly smart enough to come up with sane, ethical ways to deal with silly invasive possums -_-
Sent from my LG-H830 using Tapatalk
Ah, I remember these days fondly. Although, they weren't rooted in fact but more of a desire to see less cruelty in the world. However, there is no doubt (and the fossil record agrees) that meat-eating and the tools designed for meat-eating fueled the rise of Homo Sapiens. There is no question that one can live a long, happy lifestyle without meat-eating these days but evolutionary urges are hard to dispel. It is certainly your right not to patronize businesses with practices you do not agree with but, make no mistake, meat-eating will not stop as long as Homo Sapiens exist.
TX Aggie
03-09-2017, 17:53
The "unethical" part is the person who created the video. They are the ones who made this video (sacrificing one of their dear creatures) all in an effort to create an emotional response.
Any time I see something like this, I want to know who was behind the creation of the video, that will often tell you more than the video itself.