Drug use on the trail

[Dogwood]

Please make note this is in the Straight Forward Forum.

Since there have been a few recent threads that concern not wanting to experience drug use and drug users on the trail this needs to be considered.

Prescriptions meds, including massive amounts of opioid pain killer prescriptions, and OTC anti inflammatories and pain killers such as NSAIDS are the most common and most accepted drugs on the AT...BY FAR...not the illicit street drugs as might be narrowly focused upon.

Hikers young to old, supposed health nuts and those grossly ignoring their health, and across a wide range of attributes, use and abuse one category of drugs more than any other - NSAIDS like Ibuprofen(Advil, Motrin), Aspirin(Buffering, Bayer, etc), and Naproxen(Alleve, Naprosyn, etc). Analgesic(Tylenol) use and abuse is probably as common as tobacco drug abuse and maybe alcohol on the actual AT(not in town).

NSAID use and abuse is so regularly and rampantly accepted by backpackers that Ibuprofen(Advil, Motrin) isn't always thought of as it is - a pain killer or anti inflammatory DRUG. It's commonly referred to as a Vitamin, an essential part of everyday affairs being commonly labeled Vitamin I. I can't recall the number of times I've personally met hypocritical anti "drug" - anti cannabis use people that proudly boast about their own use and abuse of drugs like Vitamin I or are regular pill popping prescription drug users on and off trail.

OTC NSAIDS are that out of control...alone.

NOW, add in the prescription drug use of prescription NSAIDS like Celebrex or the massively out of control U.S. population's use and abuse of pain killing drugs like acetaminophen w/ codeine, fentanyl, Percocet, Oxycontin, oxycodone, codeine, hydrocodone w/codeine (Vicodin), etc and it's plainly obvious from many statistical studies it is these LEGALIZED drugs and potential abuse one will most likely experience on an AT hike.

What's out of control is the drug pushing acceptance and vastly under reported use, abuse, addiction, AND DEATHS of prescription drugs, pain killers, and OTC NSAIDS and analgesics. Don't worry, with a big smile, and fancy drug house digs, openly advertised, dressed in official looking white lab coats, with fancy pieces of framed embossed paper on the wall, one of the state licensed state sanctioned highly educated drug pushers called western trained M.D.s will gladly help you find the drug that's right for you.

The U.S. with about 4.5% of the world's population accounts for 80-85% of the global annual opioid consumptions. THAT IS OUT OF CONTROL!

Much of the so called war on drugs in the U.S. is based on historically common basic diversionary tactics that say look there but don't look over here. We don't want you to start examining this war with a wider perspective. Don't look behind the curtain or you might see how manipulated is the scene.

When one more soberly and with a wider perspective examines drug use on the AT it is these categories of DRUGS that are most in use and abused.

[FreeGoldRush]

Dogwood, I'm afraid to ask, but how much ibuprofen would you recommend? A couple of Advil after a day of trail miles sure does the trick.

[Dogwood]

Contact your nearest drug pusher doctor or pharmacist. I'm sure he or she will offer lots of pharmaceutical drug recommendations and "safe" remedies. :cool:

[rocketsocks]

I don't give a tinkers damn what someone puts in their body, that's their choice.

[Engine]

Everything Dogwood said, is in fact, a very real problem...Yup, big pharma sucks, and so does killing your liver one day at a time with Ibuprofen. Our medical system is grossly broken in many ways and hopefully, we'll find a better path. But, as for hikers abusing OTC painkillers, they exist to...wait for it...kill your pain. If in the course of hiking many miles over rugged terrain you happen to develop significant chronic aches and pains, should you suffer through it? Not sleep because your shoulders and neck are so sore it's all you can think about?

On the street, abuse of Rx drugs is rampant, ask any paramedic or nurse. In fact, most street drug seekers will tell the arriving paramedic they are allergic to NSAIDS in order to hopefully get an opiate for their supposed medical issue. Abuse of NSAIDS is more a problem of the athletic community, of which hiking is quasi-part of. Ultra runners live and breath on Vitamin I, even after being told how hard it can be on the stomach, liver and, to a lesser degree, the kidneys.

If you are on a hike of only a few days or a week and you need some Ibuprofen to deal with severe aches, then feel free in moderation. But, on a thru hike, chronic daily use of NSAIDS comes with side effects which can be far worse than the pain your masking. And by the way, when you are actively using a muscle or joint which hurts, masking the pain too much can lead to permanent injury...

All of that being said, if someone wants to smoke a joint or take a few "Vitamin I", that's completely up to them. Who am I to tell them how to hike their hike?

[ScareBear]

Dogwood has his dogma. It is who he is. He sees himself as an ultra health guru and feels that everyone must do the same.

It's bullcrap.

Yes, OTC NSAID's and opiates are both overused and overprescribed. However, we are NOT talking about society in general, we are talking about the AT. I defy Dogwood to identify one single backpacker(not day hiker) who has been on Fentanyl or Oxy. Freaking nonsense. You can't maintain balance or exert yourself on either. Now, after the hike? Who knows? But I doubt too many, if any, backpackers are pulling into camp and lick on a Fentanyl patch on or grinding up some Oxy to snort. I doubt many backpackers are using either in any manner on the trail.

Now. Let's get back to Dogwood's bullcrap. Yep, I am calling him out.

Dude. Congrats on being healthy. Congrats on a healthy lifestyle. I have some questions that might put your crap into perspective for you:
1. What does healthy living have to do with congenital defects or hereditary disease? Except in a preventative manner, by the mother.
2. What does healthy living have to do with RA, PA, MS, Spinal Stenosis, Degenerative Disc Disease, Lupus or any other host of maladies?
3. Would healthy living have prevented that goat from darting into the road, causing me to flip my Jeep down a canyon, with me inside? Would healthy living have caused my knee to grow a new ACL?

I already know your answer! "But, if you practice healthy living AFTER all these things, then you won't need NSAID's or opiates!"

And, therein lies the basis of Dogwood's dog crap.

While a healthy lifestyle(I don't drink, smoke or consume hardly any sugar or salt) helps me deal with my issues(RA/PA, spinal stenosis and a host of surgically repaired bones/joints due to injury) it doesn't alleviate the symptoms, which are pain and loss of mobility. It lessens the pain, sure. It increases the mobility, sure. But a healthy lifestyle will never ELIMINATE the pain or loss of mobility. Never. It aint gonna happen, preacher.

So. There it is. I take meds at night to alleviate the pain so I can sleep. I take an NSAID when I wake up to increase my range of motion in my affected joints. I take a statin because I suffer from a hereditary disease(no amount of healthy living will affect my cholesterol.) Could I live without my meds? Sure! If I don't want to sleep at all/well. If I don't mind being in pain all day. If I don't mind limiting my range of motion. If I don't care about dying of clogged arteries.

So, while a healthy lifestyle is an essential part of how I cope with my disease process and the effect aging has on my injuries, it will never cure them. It will never return my body to its younger/former form. It will never stop the pain. It won't stop the steady and endless march of RA/PA. The pain and loss of motion will continue to increase as I age. Nothing will stop that. Some things will slow it. And, some things, like NSAIDS, opiates, and statins, allow me to live life with less pain and more range of motion and less risk of my heart exploding.

So, Dogwood. I am glad its been working out well for you. Try to practice this thing called "empathy" before you start preaching to people that drugs are evil. That booze is evil. That if everyone would just follow your lead, it would all be good. Because, it won't. Everyone is different. No two people are the same. You aren't in anyone else's body but your own. Your way isn't going to get it done, for everyone. Or even the majority....

YMMV.

[rafe]

Thru hiking is physically demanding. Not unusual to be a bit sore after hiking fifteen, twenty miles of steep, rocky terrain. Minor injuries, sprains, blisters, cuts, scrapes, contusions are common. Bug bites are a given. You need a good nights sleep after all that.

Ibuprofen and Benadryl have long been part of my hiking "med kit" and will remain so.

[cneill13]

The best and safest pain medication out there is currently a Schedule 1 narcotic with no medicinal value according to the brainiacs that work for the U.S. government.

That said, I also consider caffeine, aspirin and alcohol to be drugs that am willing to use.

It is really a personal choice. Not for the government and certainly not for anyone on this board to decide.

Carl

[colorado_rob]

Dogwood has his dogma. It is who he is. He sees himself as an ultra health guru and feels that everyone must do the same.

It's bullcrap.

Yes, OTC NSAID's and opiates are both overused and overprescribed. However, we are NOT talking about society in general, we are talking about the AT. I defy Dogwood to identify one single backpacker(not day hiker) who has been on Fentanyl or Oxy. Freaking nonsense. You can't maintain balance or exert yourself on either. Now, after the hike? Who knows? But I doubt too many, if any, backpackers are pulling into camp and lick on a Fentanyl patch on or grinding up some Oxy to snort. I doubt many backpackers are using either in any manner on the trail.

Now. Let's get back to Dogwood's bullcrap. Yep, I am calling him out.

Dude. Congrats on being healthy. Congrats on a healthy lifestyle. I have some questions that might put your crap into perspective for you:
1. What does healthy living have to do with congenital defects or hereditary disease? Except in a preventative manner, by the mother.
2. What does healthy living have to do with RA, PA, MS, Spinal Stenosis, Degenerative Disc Disease, Lupus or any other host of maladies?
3. Would healthy living have prevented that goat from darting into the road, causing me to flip my Jeep down a canyon, with me inside? Would healthy living have caused my knee to grow a new ACL?

I already know your answer! "But, if you practice healthy living AFTER all these things, then you won't need NSAID's or opiates!"

And, therein lies the basis of Dogwood's dog crap.

While a healthy lifestyle(I don't drink, smoke or consume hardly any sugar or salt) helps me deal with my issues(RA/PA, spinal stenosis and a host of surgically repaired bones/joints due to injury) it doesn't alleviate the symptoms, which are pain and loss of mobility. It lessens the pain, sure. It increases the mobility, sure. But a healthy lifestyle will never ELIMINATE the pain or loss of mobility. Never. It aint gonna happen, preacher.

So. There it is. I take meds at night to alleviate the pain so I can sleep. I take an NSAID when I wake up to increase my range of motion in my affected joints. I take a statin because I suffer from a hereditary disease(no amount of healthy living will affect my cholesterol.) Could I live without my meds? Sure! If I don't want to sleep at all/well. If I don't mind being in pain all day. If I don't mind limiting my range of motion. If I don't care about dying of clogged arteries.

So, while a healthy lifestyle is an essential part of how I cope with my disease process and the effect aging has on my injuries, it will never cure them. It will never return my body to its younger/former form. It will never stop the pain. It won't stop the steady and endless march of RA/PA. The pain and loss of motion will continue to increase as I age. Nothing will stop that. Some things will slow it. And, some things, like NSAIDS, opiates, and statins, allow me to live life with less pain and more range of motion and less risk of my heart exploding.

So, Dogwood. I am glad its been working out well for you. Try to practice this thing called "empathy" before you start preaching to people that drugs are evil. That booze is evil. That if everyone would just follow your lead, it would all be good. Because, it won't. Everyone is different. No two people are the same. You aren't in anyone else's body but your own. Your way isn't going to get it done, for everyone. Or even the majority....

YMMV.Very well said, hear, hear! Thanks for saving me some typing as well.

[T-Rx]

Dogwood has his dogma. It is who he is. He sees himself as an ultra health guru and feels that everyone must do the same.

It's bullcrap.

Yes, OTC NSAID's and opiates are both overused and overprescribed. However, we are NOT talking about society in general, we are talking about the AT. I defy Dogwood to identify one single backpacker(not day hiker) who has been on Fentanyl or Oxy. Freaking nonsense. You can't maintain balance or exert yourself on either. Now, after the hike? Who knows? But I doubt too many, if any, backpackers are pulling into camp and lick on a Fentanyl patch on or grinding up some Oxy to snort. I doubt many backpackers are using either in any manner on the trail.

Now. Let's get back to Dogwood's bullcrap. Yep, I am calling him out.

Dude. Congrats on being healthy. Congrats on a healthy lifestyle. I have some questions that might put your crap into perspective for you:
1. What does healthy living have to do with congenital defects or hereditary disease? Except in a preventative manner, by the mother.
2. What does healthy living have to do with RA, PA, MS, Spinal Stenosis, Degenerative Disc Disease, Lupus or any other host of maladies?
3. Would healthy living have prevented that goat from darting into the road, causing me to flip my Jeep down a canyon, with me inside? Would healthy living have caused my knee to grow a new ACL?

I already know your answer! "But, if you practice healthy living AFTER all these things, then you won't need NSAID's or opiates!"

And, therein lies the basis of Dogwood's dog crap.

While a healthy lifestyle(I don't drink, smoke or consume hardly any sugar or salt) helps me deal with my issues(RA/PA, spinal stenosis and a host of surgically repaired bones/joints due to injury) it doesn't alleviate the symptoms, which are pain and loss of mobility. It lessens the pain, sure. It increases the mobility, sure. But a healthy lifestyle will never ELIMINATE the pain or loss of mobility. Never. It aint gonna happen, preacher.

So. There it is. I take meds at night to alleviate the pain so I can sleep. I take an NSAID when I wake up to increase my range of motion in my affected joints. I take a statin because I suffer from a hereditary disease(no amount of healthy living will affect my cholesterol.) Could I live without my meds? Sure! If I don't want to sleep at all/well. If I don't mind being in pain all day. If I don't mind limiting my range of motion. If I don't care about dying of clogged arteries.

So, while a healthy lifestyle is an essential part of how I cope with my disease process and the effect aging has on my injuries, it will never cure them. It will never return my body to its younger/former form. It will never stop the pain. It won't stop the steady and endless march of RA/PA. The pain and loss of motion will continue to increase as I age. Nothing will stop that. Some things will slow it. And, some things, like NSAIDS, opiates, and statins, allow me to live life with less pain and more range of motion and less risk of my heart exploding.

So, Dogwood. I am glad its been working out well for you. Try to practice this thing called "empathy" before you start preaching to people that drugs are evil. That booze is evil. That if everyone would just follow your lead, it would all be good. Because, it won't. Everyone is different. No two people are the same. You aren't in anyone else's body but your own. Your way isn't going to get it done, for everyone. Or even the majority....

YMMV.

+1 on your comments Scarebear. This is not the first tirade of Dogwoods laced with BS. Dogwood, you make a lot of generalized statements about the medical community that are not true. Also. If you are going to espouse info. as facts then please check the accuracy of your info. #1 Vicodin never did and never will contain codiene and #2 Celebrex is not a traditional NSAID but rather it is a COX 2 inhibitor. As someone who has spent their career in patient/health care I find it offensive that with a single statement you manage to question the integrity of every healthcare provider out there. There are some bad ones as there are poor examples from all sectors of life and society. But the vast majority of these healthcare providers are dedicated individuals who work hard to improve the health and well being of their patients.

[MuddyWaters]

I dont think using OTC or even prescription drugs in the manner for which they are indicated is "abuse"
That said, I do think too many people in this country take too many drugs, because Drs. give them to them.
IMO, you goal should be to take.....none.
The problem is, people go to Dr. because of discomfort, or a legitimate problem, and if Dr. doesnt give them something, they go away mad.

As a friend of mine said, "getting old isnt for wimps"

As a PT friend of mine said " No one ever said life should be pain free"

The #1 expense in my employers health care, and I suspect this holds true for the US at large, is psychoactive drugs.
People want drugs to help them cope with stress, and concentrate better. ADD drug use is totally out of control with kids today. If kids need drugs to go to school and learn...theres a problem with what we are making kids do today.

All this aside...

These drugs are not viewed in same way as drugs that alter mental state for recreational use. These will always be viewed as showing lack of moral character of the user, as they always have.

[Hikingjim]

Since there have been a few recent threads that concern not wanting to experience drug use and drug users on the trail this needs to be considered.

There's nothing worse than having a shelter crashed by people having an ibuprofen party. A rowdy bunch
But seriously, I can't see how this would be a concern to other hikers. People need to manage their own health and the consequences...

[Don H]

Anyone taking OTC or prescription drugs should understand the safe use, dosage and side effects. This information is easily obtained.

Dogwood, don't know exactly which threads you're referring to about people not want to experience drug use on the trail but I'm guessing the concern is not over people taking some Tylenol at the end of the day.

[Ktaadn]

Please make note this is in the Straight Forward Forum.

Since there have been a few recent threads that concern not wanting to experience drug use and drug users on the trail this needs to be considered.

Prescriptions meds, including massive amounts of opioid pain killer prescriptions, and OTC anti inflammatories and pain killers such as NSAIDS are the most common and most accepted drugs on the AT...BY FAR...not the illicit street drugs as might be narrowly focused upon.

Hikers young to old, supposed health nuts and those grossly ignoring their health, and across a wide range of attributes, use and abuse one category of drugs more than any other - NSAIDS like Ibuprofen(Advil, Motrin), Aspirin(Buffering, Bayer, etc), and Naproxen(Alleve, Naprosyn, etc). Analgesic(Tylenol) use and abuse is probably as common as tobacco drug abuse and maybe alcohol on the actual AT(not in town).

NSAID use and abuse is so regularly and rampantly accepted by backpackers that Ibuprofen(Advil, Motrin) isn't always thought of as it is - a pain killer or anti inflammatory DRUG. It's commonly referred to as a Vitamin, an essential part of everyday affairs being commonly labeled Vitamin I. I can't recall the number of times I've personally met hypocritical anti "drug" - anti cannabis use people that proudly boast about their own use and abuse of drugs like Vitamin I or are regular pill popping prescription drug users on and off trail.

OTC NSAIDS are that out of control...alone.

NOW, add in the prescription drug use of prescription NSAIDS like Celebrex or the massively out of control U.S. population's use and abuse of pain killing drugs like acetaminophen w/ codeine, fentanyl, Percocet, Oxycontin, oxycodone, codeine, hydrocodone w/codeine (Vicodin), etc and it's plainly obvious from many statistical studies it is these LEGALIZED drugs and potential abuse one will most likely experience on an AT hike.

What's out of control is the drug pushing acceptance and vastly under reported use, abuse, addiction, AND DEATHS of prescription drugs, pain killers, and OTC NSAIDS and analgesics. Don't worry, with a big smile, and fancy drug house digs, openly advertised, dressed in official looking white lab coats, with fancy pieces of framed embossed paper on the wall, one of the state licensed state sanctioned highly educated drug pushers called western trained M.D.s will gladly help you find the drug that's right for you.

The U.S. with about 4.5% of the world's population accounts for 80-85% of the global annual opioid consumptions. THAT IS OUT OF CONTROL!

Much of the so called war on drugs in the U.S. is based on historically common basic diversionary tactics that say look there but don't look over here. We don't want you to start examining this war with a wider perspective. Don't look behind the curtain or you might see how manipulated is the scene.

When one more soberly and with a wider perspective examines drug use on the AT it is these categories of DRUGS that are most in use and abused.

Is there a question that you have? I agree that prescription drugs are a bigger problem than traditional recreational drugs, I'm just not sure what you are getting at with this post. I recently heard from a documentary that there are only 2 countries on earth where it is legal to advertise drugs. I haven't had a chance to verify if that is true or not.

[imscotty]

Dogwood, I'm afraid to ask, but how much ibuprofen would you recommend? A couple of Advil after a day of trail miles sure does the trick.

For myself, I would not take any amount of Advil. Read this...

http://www.dddmag.com/article/2015/04/strong-link-found-between-dementia-common-anticholinergic-drugs

[Old Hiker]

For myself, I would not take any amount of Advil. Read this...

http://www.dddmag.com/article/2015/04/strong-link-found-between-dementia-common-anticholinergic-drugs

Please note: the study was about anticholinergics, not the ibuprofen. All the products have a "PM" after the name.

[troubadour]

Here I thought this was going to be about weed...but this is even more pathetic my lord. Haha not to be mean. but seriously why do drugs cause so much controversy? Unless someone causes you harm that they wouldn't have sober, then who cares what others do to their bodies.

[MuddyWaters]

Here I thought this was going to be about weed...but this is even more pathetic my lord. Haha not to be mean. but seriously why do drugs cause so much controversy? Unless someone causes you harm that they wouldn't have sober, then who cares what others do to their bodies.


No one cares what someone else actually does
But...
Maybe others dont want their children exposed to it
Or their children taught its OK
Or to put up with the behavior of impaired people, or negative societal costs of dealing with them

Which is why some things are controlled or illegal

[Puddlefish]

Sorry to dogpile on Dogwood, but he assumes a lot, takes things out of context and introduces a lot of irrelevant facts. While it's a nice reminder not to burn out your liver with Ibuprofen, the drug use concerns on the trail are not about OTC painkillers, the drug use concerns are about mood altering drugs. If we're going to be in the straight forward section, we should at least not troll those people who have concerns about such things.

[lyagooshka]

Was thinking if I should weigh in or not here, and I guess I will.
While what Dogwood, et al say has 'some' merit, it is WAY over simplified/sensationalized.
When someone says they want to "get away from drugs/users", they are talking about illegal, mind/personality altering, highly addictive kinds.

Here's a question, when's the last time you heard someone kill their family because they took 800mg of Motrin?
See the direction I'm headed in?

And blaming "Big Pharma" is also pretty ridiculous.
They do not force anyone to buy/take anything.
I know it's popular to blame pharma, oil, banks, but the common factor in it all is the person.
If they can't be bothered to get the facts and apply them, shame on them.
Don't blame companies for simply taking advantage of an opportunity.
And let's not forget the diseases and conditions that 100 years ago would be fatal that are now a simple treatment with close to 100% survival rate.
Thanks to who?
Moonbeam and the magic herb shop you say?
No, actually it's Big Pharma.
You're welcome.

So to sum up, do as you will to your body, so long as you're not affecting others (like being plastered by the campfire and peeing on the hiker next to you because you thought they were a privy).
You know, "Hike Your Own Hike".
Have open discussions (like this thread).
Keep an open mind.
And if you have a headache, cure it how you will.
If that cure involves Motrin, don't worry.
There are thousands of pages of INDEPENDENT studies that show Motrin and Tylenol (and the generics) to be 100% safe when used properly.

Just my $0.02.

[Slo-go'en]

I believe that big Pharma should be made accountable and made to pay for the damages done by the opioid epidemic which they created. However, I doubt there are many hikers who are oxi addicts.

OTOH, OTC pain killers are probably over used by long distance hikers. Some take the max recommend daily dosage or more every day.

Personally, I try to limit my use of them and stick to plain old Aspirin. As a 60+ year old hiker, it's probably good for me too. I find it's more effective taken in the morning rather then in the evening after the fact. In the evening, a couple tokes of a certain potent herb is very helpful.

I find after the first week or so my need to take OTC pain killers diminishes significantly, unless it was a particularly difficult day.

[Slo-go'en]

And blaming "Big Pharma" is also pretty ridiculous.
They do not force anyone to buy/take anything.

Just my $0.02.

"Big Pharma" may not force anyone to buy/take anything, but their aggressive marketing, down playing the risks, bribes and kickbacks to doctors to entice them to over prescribe their products ( the Opioids are a recent example) makes them culpable. When your doctor tells you that you need to take these pills and lots of them, you tend to believe your doctor.

[lyagooshka]

...but their aggressive marketing, down playing the risks, bribes...
Which can be said of ANY industry from fast food to alcohol to cigarettes to gadgets on the AT (although then you'd call it a 'sponsorship' and not a bribe".

...kickbacks to doctors to entice them to over prescribe their products...
That is just plain wrong.
No matter what propaganda you hear, this is just a lie.
When a pharmaceutical rep take a Dr. out to dinner, it's not to get them to OVER prescribe ANYTHING.
There are strict guidelines to follow, and any deviation is usually investigated.
That's how doctors lose their licenses.
When big pharma woos doctors, it's to prescribe their beta blocker over their competition's.
Yes, opioids are abused.
But no Dr. would write for 4X as much as the standard dose is.
What happens is a patient lies about pain, gets a scrip, and then sells the pills.
That's how people wind up with several times the amount (or they are through their 1 month supply on day 2).
Again, just my $0.02, and FYI, I do NOT work for any drug company, though I do work in healthcare.

[rocketsocks]

I think Dogwood has an "exaggerated sense of well being" ...take a holiday dude. ;)

[Puddlefish]

Which can be said of ANY industry from fast food to alcohol to cigarettes to gadgets on the AT (although then you'd call it a 'sponsorship' and not a bribe".

That is just plain wrong.
No matter what propaganda you hear, this is just a lie.
When a pharmaceutical rep take a Dr. out to dinner, it's not to get them to OVER prescribe ANYTHING.
There are strict guidelines to follow, and any deviation is usually investigated.
That's how doctors lose their licenses.
When big pharma woos doctors, it's to prescribe their beta blocker over their competition's.
Yes, opioids are abused.
But no Dr. would write for 4X as much as the standard dose is.
What happens is a patient lies about pain, gets a scrip, and then sells the pills.
That's how people wind up with several times the amount (or they are through their 1 month supply on day 2).
Again, just my $0.02, and FYI, I do NOT work for any drug company, though I do work in healthcare.

I suspect he meant over prescribe as when the drug is borderline necessary, when a minor lifestyle change might suffice instead.

I have supraventricular tachycardia. My doctor wanted to put me on medication for the rest of my life, or surgery. As I was leaving the office all bummed out, the nurse told me about the vagal maneuver, an action used to slow down the heart rate by stimulating the vagus nerve.

I can't speak as to the doctor's reasoning of course, maybe he was hoping for the expensive surgery?

[John B]

"Big Pharma" may not force anyone to buy/take anything, but their aggressive marketing, down playing the risks, bribes and kickbacks to doctors to entice them to over prescribe their products ( the Opioids are a recent example) makes them culpable. When your doctor tells you that you need to take these pills and lots of them, you tend to believe your doctor. My daughter is an ER doc at Einstein Hospital, Philadelphia (transferring to Saint Anthony's, Denver, in August). I've never once heard her say that she or any of her colleagues have been bribed, enticed to over prescribe, aggressively marketed, or received kickbacks from any drug sales rep. I've never once seen or heard of her consulting an advertisement for any information on any pharmaceutical product whatsoever. Have I missed something? Is it all a part of The Big Cover-Up that only a select few non physicians know about?

[Puddlefish]

My daughter is an ER doc at Einstein Hospital, Philadelphia (transferring to Saint Anthony's, Denver, in August). I've never once heard her say that she or any of her colleagues have been bribed, enticed to over prescribe, aggressively marketed, or received kickbacks from any drug sales rep. I've never once seen or heard of her consulting an advertisement for any information on any pharmaceutical product whatsoever. Have I missed something? Is it all a part of The Big Cover-Up that only a select few non physicians know about?

There have been a lot of legislative proposals and laws enacted within the last six years. I'm suspect we're looking at different eras of the sales rep. My ex's dad was a sales rep back in the day. He spent a whole lot of the companies money on golf, dinners, event tickets and whatnot.

[Dogwood]

This thread was created with the intent to assist those who wish to hike and live a sober life and avoid environments with drug use and abuse and those abusing drugs defining sober life as being sober not just from alcohol, tobacco, illicit street drugs, but also after honest soul searching factoring in the potential destructiveness and abuse of pharmaceutical industry, prescription and OTC pain killers, analgesics, and NSAIDS.

As we post our opinions I ask the content be sensitive to those who seek to enjoy life without using and abusing ALL forms of drugs.

Again, this is in response to several recent threads where OP's expressed concern for sobriety on their hikes.

[Puddlefish]

This thread was created with the intent to assist those who wish to hike and live a sober life and avoid environments with drug use and abuse and those abusing drugs defining sober life as being sober not just from alcohol, tobacco, illicit street drugs, but also after honest soul searching factoring in the potential destructiveness and abuse of pharmaceutical industry, prescription and OTC pain killers, analgesics, and NSAIDS.

As we post our opinions I ask the content be sensitive to those who seek to enjoy life without using and abusing ALL forms of drugs.

Again, this is in response to several recent threads where OP's expressed concern for sobriety on their hikes.

So, it's a thread for people who define sobriety in a very specific and unusual way. Got it.

My name is Puddlefish, and I've been sober from Ibuprofen for two months now...

[kibs]

[QUOTE=Puddlefish;2110746]There have been a lot of legislative proposals and laws enacted within the last six years. I'm suspect we're looking at different eras of the sales rep. My ex's dad was a sales rep back in the day. He spent a whole lot of the companies money on golf, dinners, event tickets and whatnot.[/QUOTEI

I am in the pain management business. Newly enacted legislation makes it illegal to buy, provide, lavish outings, meals or gifts to any healthcare practitioner. The old days of bribing decision makers are over
Americans in general, are used to dealing with unpleasantness with the flip of a switch, push a button or take a pill. I am not referring to those with Chronic pain. This cultural behavior has unfortunately put pressures on the healthcare industry. Yes, Opiod use in the US has reached epidemic proportions.
1 in 5 people using prescribed//non-prescribed opiods have become addicted-this is a serious problem. 80% of patients who experience postoperative pain report experiencing moderate to severe pain. Many clinicians are looking for alternatives to reduce opiod consumption such as non-narcotic cocktails to the use of pain pumps, that infuse smaller amounts of drugs locally and not systemically into the surgical wound or nerve branch.

[Bronk]

Like you said, this is in Straight Forward...but what is the question?

[Alligator]

Closed again folks. Reminder about the Terms of Service

Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts, or involving the use, production and/or distribution of illegal drugs are forbidden.