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Drapac
12-12-2016, 13:00
Getting ready for a Feb start Nobo and with several of my big ticket items either purchased or at least decided on, I can turn attention to some of the smaller (though equally important items).

I am planning on the worst weather possible, which means freezing Temps. And from what I have read so far, that eliminates water filters.

The question then becomes, how to treat water. I have read about bleach, aqua Mira and tablets but have noticed some differing of opinions on whether they actually kill Giardia cysts.

What is your go to method for winter water purification and do you have any tips that might come in handy?

Also I know some people drink untreated water and have no problem. I plan on treating everything just to play it safe. Risk/reward is to great imo to mess around.

Thanks!

The Solemates
12-12-2016, 13:06
If I treat, I use a water filter no matter the temperature. I've never been sick.

QiWiz
12-12-2016, 13:57
I would use Aqua Mira drops, tablets, or a Steri-Pen. A Sawyer squeeze can freeze and be permanently damaged as a result. If it gets cold enough, Aqua Mira drops can even freeze, though this does not damage them (though the container can in theory be damaged)

Drapac
12-12-2016, 14:06
I would use Aqua Mira drops, tablets, or a Steri-Pen. A Sawyer squeeze can freeze and be permanently damaged as a result. If it gets cold enough, Aqua Mira drops can even freeze, though this does not damage them (though the container can in theory be damaged)tt


Thanks for the reply. I like the idea of the Steri-pen, but am a little wary of something that can breakdown/run of batteries (though a back up tablet/supply of treatment would do in a pinch I suppose). Do you have any experience with a Steri Pen? If so, roughly how long/how much water were you able to treat on a set of batteries?

nsherry61
12-12-2016, 14:12
If I treat, I use a water filter no matter the temperature. I've never been sick.
I probably shouldn't go here, but . . . I rarely treat my water in winter and I've never been sick. Hmm. Of course, I rarely treat my water in the summer either and I've still never been sick.

I have a hard time getting to worried about getting sick from melted snow.

Steripens work well for one or maybe two people, but get kinda slow for more than one unless everyone carries them. Filters really aren't that hard to keep from being frozen if you store them in a Ziploc and keep them in an inside pocket and inside your sleeping bag or inside a roll of cloths or other insulation - it just adds a little "fiddle factor".

In winter, I generally keep a fanny pack against my belly, under my cloths, to keep the things that I want to keep warm, warm and easily accessed. If I'm hiking/skiing/snowshoeing I often keep a water bottle inside my jacket adding snow to it as I drink so it is melting and maintaining my water supply while I move . . . not a good idea if you struggle keeping warm, but a great idea if you are generating lots of heat and have to otherwise strip down to keep from overheating.

Greenlight
12-12-2016, 14:36
I'm glad you posted this, Drapac, because I've been mulling it over, too. I took my Sawyer Squeeze on a February overnighter last year, and kept it tied around my neck in a microfiber bag on a cord, and it stayed warm. I had enough water with me that I never had to use the Sawyer (I always chemically treated my water before), but the crux of the matter seems to be, at least with running water...how to get it down to treatable temperature before filtering it or adding the chemicals.

Anyone have any experience?

My gut is telling me to buy a bladder just for winter water. The heat from your back should keep the from freezing, even thought the tube may. It would then be possible to pour that water into another container from which you could filter it into a bottle.


Getting ready for a Feb start Nobo and with several of my big ticket items either purchased or at least decided on, I can turn attention to some of the smaller (though equally important items).

I am planning on the worst weather possible, which means freezing Temps. And from what I have read so far, that eliminates water filters.

The question then becomes, how to treat water. I have read about bleach, aqua Mira and tablets but have noticed some differing of opinions on whether they actually kill Giardia cysts.

What is your go to method for winter water purification and do you have any tips that might come in handy?

Also I know some people drink untreated water and have no problem. I plan on treating everything just to play it safe. Risk/reward is to great imo to mess around.

Thanks!

nsherry61
12-12-2016, 14:51
. . . I took my Sawyer Squeeze on a February overnighter last year . . . the crux of the matter seems to be, at least with running water...how to get it down to treatable temperature before filtering it or adding the chemicals. . .
I'm not sure where you are going with this. Do you want to heat up or cool down your running water before you treat or process it? Warm water does seem to filter faster, but nearly freezing water that is liquid still works. Also, chemicals work more slowly in cold water, but they still work. A stove heats water pretty well, but I don't understand the desire to mess with this.


. . . My gut is telling me to buy a bladder just for winter water. The heat from your back should keep the from freezing, even thought the tube may. It would then be possible to pour that water into another container from which you could filter it into a bottle.
Bladders are to fiddly for me, especially in winter. You can get an insulated hose, or insulate your hose to reduce (and/or eliminate) the hose freezing issue if you really want to mess with one.

I really don't understand what you are getting at regarding all the water transfers you are alluding to above. If you are using a Sawyer Squeeze, fill the squeeze bladder and squeeze it into a bottle and be done with it.

Ktaadn
12-12-2016, 14:55
I use a sawyer squeeze all year long. When the weather is below freezing, I store it in a ziploc bag in my pocket and I put it in my sleeping bag at night.

As for the bladder/drinking tube, I've had both of them freeze solid. The bite valve now leaks because of it. I just drink straight from my sawyer now.

Dogwood
12-12-2016, 15:02
Aqua Mira two part drops yr round in the U.S. In Feb even with the longer activation times not a game changer. Easy, UL, minimal bulk, readily available, effective for the common AT nasties, comparably cost effective.


I probably shouldn't go here, but . . . I rarely treat my water in winter and I've never been sick. Hmm. Of course, I rarely treat my water in the summer either and I've still never been sick.

I have a hard time getting to worried about getting sick from melted snow...

Off topic but this is my mindset as well.

Dogwood
12-12-2016, 15:03
but nearly freezing water that is liquid still works.

lol :)....

Mr. Bumpy
12-12-2016, 15:19
I'll qualify my response with that I have never distance hiked in the winter, but I typically do two or three long weekend hikes each winter -3-5 days for 35-75 miles. I still cary a Sawyer as backup but my primary water purification for winter is boiling. I use the MSR Reactor which is heavier but works faster and is more efficient than a Jet Boil.
Cons are obvious - weight of stove and fuel consumption - this would not be a thing to do with an alcohol stove, (nor would I want to do it with a pocket rocket or giga) but a Jet Boil would do just fine. Two canisters would last about a week but you would be walking through a resupply point at least once a week even that early in the season so supply wouldn't be a problem. Boiling also takes a little bit more time than filtering, but it is winter and there will be a lot of sit around time so this give you something to do. I like that I don't get my hands cold messing around with the filter and that there is always something warm around to handle or drink.
If you are willing to take the weight penalty of a Jet Boil type of stove then think about this. Like I said, I have only done this for 3-5 days at a time, but even if I were starting a distance hike on the AT where supply is not an issue, it is how I would handle water purification.

Greenlight
12-12-2016, 16:17
Here's my concern, with the Sawyer products. They advertise that if you allow the filter to freeze, you should throw it away because the membrane is compromised. If you are collecting running water in the winter, chances are that the water is below 32 degrees Fahrenheit. When you go to filter it, as soon as it contacts the membrane, the water may turn to ice. You've just destroyed your Sawyer.

A potential solution, since you can wear your Sawyer next to your skin to keep it from freezing, and can warm freezing water up in a bladder that is next to your back in your pack, is to transfer the unfiltered water int the bladder into a container from which it can be filtered into a bottle.

The same water would also be warmer and allow AquaMira to work more quickly if you didn't want to use a filter.

All of this is considering that you take treating your water seriously instead of simply drinking it untreated. Do you think I'm over-reacting to Sawyer's own claim that a frozen filter should be thrown away? Do you think I'd be okay filtering water with my Sawyer, which has been kept above freezing because it is always next to my skin, then shaking it until it stops dripping, then put it back in it's pouch next to my skin? I just don't want to *think* I'm filtering water, when in reality all I'm doing is running it through a broken filter.




I'm not sure where you are going with this. Do you want to heat up or cool down your running water before you treat or process it? Warm water does seem to filter faster, but nearly freezing water that is liquid still works. Also, chemicals work more slowly in cold water, but they still work. A stove heats water pretty well, but I don't understand the desire to mess with this.


Bladders are to fiddly for me, especially in winter. You can get an insulated hose, or insulate your hose to reduce (and/or eliminate) the hose freezing issue if you really want to mess with one.

I really don't understand what you are getting at regarding all the water transfers you are alluding to above. If you are using a Sawyer Squeeze, fill the squeeze bladder and squeeze it into a bottle and be done with it.

Flounder940
12-12-2016, 16:36
I probably shouldn't go here, but . . . I rarely treat my water in winter and I've never been sick. Hmm. Of course, I rarely treat my water in the summer either and I've still never been sick.

I too rarely treat water. Unless I am getting water from a stream that I know is close to a farm or field that has livestock, I don't treat. I've never been sick either.

colorado_rob
12-12-2016, 16:49
Yours is a valid concern greenlite, but how can liquid water be below freezing? The water might be just barely above, but not below.I believe that if you keep your sawyer warn before, plus shake it out when done and store next to body, religiously, you'd be fine. There is no mechanism to freeze, as long as you're quick about it.

All this being said, i use aqua mira even in deep winter. And i don't see any reason to treat melted snow with anything, though the taste is usually weird.

I got giardia once, diagnosed, travelling to belieze. Not fun, but not the end of the world either. Thankfully it take a while for symptoms to show up so didn't ruin our dive trip.

Dogwood
12-12-2016, 16:51
Based on my understanding some of the more common AT water borne parasites are less active or less widespread in winter. Less people equals less problems less domesticated pets related to diseases humans and our activities transmit via water. Less wildlife activity too that transmit diseases. :)

Dogwood
12-12-2016, 16:58
Actually, pure water can still be in its liquid state below 0* C. H20's freezing pt is atmospheric pressure dependent. Like air water can contain all sorts of elements or compounds in it. For example adding common salt to H20 changes the freezing pt.

Dogwood
12-12-2016, 17:00
For instance, I've dropped a thermometer in alpine(high elevation) running/liquid water to find the temp of it to be in the 20's* F.

Starchild
12-12-2016, 17:02
In cold temperatures pathogens can't multiply fast and water generally safer, so less worries about purification.

Steripen should also be kept warm if possible. Though no harm if it gets cold, expect it may need to warm up to work (particularly the Freedom model)





.... I use the MSR Reactor which is heavier but works faster and is more efficient than a Jet Boil......


IIRC yes the Reactor is faster, the Jet Boil I believe is more efficient (reactor is faster because it uses more fuel). Both are by a very small factor as to be practically meaningless. The smallest reactor is the most inefficient, but again the difference is small. The reactor can be used as a great hand warmer radiant heat source.

With all that said both will start to underperform when the temps fall into the teens and lower due to the properties of the gas in the canisters, there are ways around that too.

Drapac
12-12-2016, 17:24
Thanks for all the replies.

First off, yes there is probably a reduced risk of contamination in the winter, but I am not taking any chances.

Same deal with a filter. Water expands when frozen and I have read and a would have assumed anyway, that that can wreak havoc on a filter. The biggest thing for me, is not knowing if it's working or not.

Sounding more and more like AM may be the way to go.

Does anyone know if the steri pen takes longer to work in the cold?

Another Kevin
12-12-2016, 17:47
If I'm using running water in the winter, Aqua Mira two-part treatment.

If I'm melting snow, I've got a heat source going already. I might as well boil it.

Greenlight
12-12-2016, 18:36
Yours is a valid concern greenlite, but how can liquid water be below freezing? The water might be just barely above, but not below.I believe that if you keep your sawyer warn before, plus shake it out when done and store next to body, religiously, you'd be fine. There is no mechanism to freeze, as long as you're quick about it.

All this being said, i use aqua mira even in deep winter. And i don't see any reason to treat melted snow with anything, though the taste is usually weird.

I got giardia once, diagnosed, travelling to belieze. Not fun, but not the end of the world either. Thankfully it take a while for symptoms to show up so didn't ruin our dive trip.

Moving water can be well below freezing


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HooKooDooKu
12-12-2016, 18:42
Yours is a valid concern greenlite, but how can liquid water be below freezing? The water might be just barely above, but not below...
When a liquid is chilled below it's freezing point, it's called supercooling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercooling). A liquid can also be heated above it's boiling point, and it's called superheating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheating).

I'm not sure how water in a stream manages to get supercooled, because the typical way to supercool water is to place pure water (such as obtained by distillation or reverse osmosis) in a smooth container and place it in calm below freezing conditions. Once the water is supercooled, you can instantly freeze it by tossing something into it.

Superheating is something you have to be careful about with microwave ovens. If you place water (and it doesn't have to be pure water) in a smooth container an microwave it, it is very easy to get part of the liquid to be superheated. When you then add something to the water, the superheated parts of the water will instantly vaporize splashing scaling on you.

colorado_rob
12-12-2016, 19:41
Moving water can be well below freezing


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Nope, don't think so, unless it is absolutely pure and has no starting point for crystals. No way stream water qualifies for super cooling. Woops, just saw huukuu said essentially same thing. I

Sarcasm the elf
12-12-2016, 19:41
I've mostly switched to aqua mira for winter time. It's just easier to deal with than a filter. I use either nalgene or Gatorade bottles in the winter which makes it easy enough to deal with, just dunk then wide mouth bottle in the watersource, mix the chemicals wait a few minutes and mix. I stopped using my camelbak in the winter since the hose and threads freeze until too easily.

For what it's worth, I've used the sawyer squeeze in the winter on numerous occassions. It's quite manageable to keep it from freezing, but it's also a pain in the arse to deal with filling the filter bags and sit there squeezing it with bare hands.

Greenlight
12-12-2016, 20:03
I carry my JetBoil everywhere I hike. I like the argument for using it to boil water for purifying. I'll use AM as a backup and leave the Sawyer (and the camelback) at the house.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but lots of good information ... thx


I've mostly switched to aqua mira for winter time. It's just easier to deal with than a filter. I use either nalgene or Gatorade bottles in the winter which makes it easy enough to deal with, just dunk then wide mouth bottle in the watersource, mix the chemicals wait a few minutes and mix. I stopped using my camelbak in the winter since the hose and threads freeze until too easily.

For what it's worth, I've used the sawyer squeeze in the winter on numerous occassions. It's quite manageable to keep it from freezing, but it's also a pain in the arse to deal with filling the filter bags and sit there squeezing it with bare hands.

Venchka
12-12-2016, 21:12
A quick take on moving water in the Appalachians.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/walterhsmith.wordpress.com/2013/01/08/why-do-streams-not-freeze-in-winter/amp/
Pay no attention to the salamanders.
Wayne


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Dogwood
12-12-2016, 21:55
If I'm using running water in the winter, Aqua Mira two-part treatment.

If I'm melting snow, I've got a heat source going already. I might as well boil it.

It can be this uncomplicated. ^

Then add in less pathogen activity.

Bati
12-12-2016, 22:09
I used a Kathryn pocket and pumped it dry sideways. I had a couple of issues with small amounts of water freezing, but thawed it on top of my pot, with some snow inside to make a double boiler. The few times I had to melt snow (which takes huge amounts of fuel) I didn't bother boiling fully. The snow was fresh. The filter worked well even when pumping a trickle off the top of ice.
However, I had a particularly bad year on the AT. Chances are that if keep your filter in your jacket, sleeping bag, or buried in your pack it won't freeze. Drink lots of water as it helps prevent hypothermia and frostbite.

Sarcasm the elf
12-12-2016, 22:35
I carry my JetBoil everywhere I hike. I like the argument for using it to boil water for purifying. I'll use AM as a backup and leave the Sawyer (and the camelback) at the house.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, but lots of good information ... thx

If I'm using snow as my water source that is what I do as well. One of the reasons reasons I'm a fan of jetboil

FreeGoldRush
12-13-2016, 00:31
For instance, I've dropped a thermometer in alpine(high elevation) running/liquid water to find the temp of it to be in the 20's* F.

The freezing point of water changes by less than 1/100 degree Celsius as you move from Death Valley to the top of Mt. Everest.

colorado_rob
12-13-2016, 09:54
The freezing point of water changes by less than 1/100 degree Celsius as you move from Death Valley to the top of Mt. Everest.Has DW been making his/her fantastic claims yet again? It's either his/her imagination, or a busted thermometer.

Under high pressures, of course, ice turns to water, even well below 32 degrees, it's why ice is slippery, a by product of the water-unique property that is actually expands when it freezes.

Out in the field, water just plain doesn't exist in liquid form when its temperature is below 32F. Or show me a valid reference to the contrary. After seeing the claims already made in this thread, I started to have a glimmer of doubt, so I did verify to myself I wasn't having an O.L.D. attack ( a common occurrence these days), and found plenty of references that in this case I wasn't.

In any case, sounds like original question resolved, no Sawyer to be used in extreme cold conditions, which is wise. Do keep in mind though, melting snow/ice for water does take a lot of extra fuel, so plan accordingly. The mountaineering rule of thumb for carrying fuel on extended winter trips is 8 ounces of fuel per person per day. I have done dozens of deep cold and sometimes extended (2-3 week) cold trips and found this rule of thumb to be extremely conservative. My own rule of thumb is 6 ounces per person per day, and have found even this to be conservative, the real number being more like 5. So we carry 6 to have some margin. I'm talking about either canister fuel or white gas, both have just about the same energy per ounce. These rules of thumb assume all your daily water comes from melting snow. Thankfully many times you can indeed find flowing streams in the dead of winter.

Sorry folks, again, liquid water below 32 degrees exists only in extreme circumstances, certainly not in mountain streams. Google up "super cooled water" and check things out.

Hosaphone
12-13-2016, 11:03
Just want to point out... Even with 32F water coming from a running source, as soon as you bring that out into the 10F atmosphere and increase the "surface area" of the water by squeezing it through tiny tubes of the filter, I would expect it to freeze very readily... No?

Hosaphone
12-13-2016, 11:08
I'm planning on an early March start... I think my plan is to use the Sawyer as normal if temps are above 32F, and just drink untreated/unfiltered water if it's colder than that. Yolo?

FreeGoldRush
12-13-2016, 11:08
Just want to point out... Even with 32F water coming from a running source, as soon as you bring that out into the 10F atmosphere and increase the "surface area" of the water by squeezing it through tiny tubes of the filter, I would expect it to freeze very readily... No?

Exactly. And it's not like you are going to keep it warm with your hands in those conditions. The water has more mass than your hands and could easily overwhelm your attempts to keep the filter from freezing while using it.

QiWiz
12-13-2016, 12:33
I have never used a Steri-Pen as a single source of water treatment, but rather as a way of treating water quickly on trail when I come to a water source and want to camel up and not carry a lot of water. When used this way I can go 10-14 days on trail with one set of batteries. In warm weather I have used a Sawyer Mini for the same purpose. I tend to use Aqua Mira to treat water in camp. The SteriPen folks will have information on how much water you can treat on a set of batteries. One tip: always remove your batteries when storing the SteriPen.

Dogwood
12-13-2016, 14:43
Has DW been making his/her fantastic claims yet again? It's either his/her imagination, or a busted thermometer.

Out in the field, water just plain doesn't exist in liquid form when its temperature is below 32F. Or show me a valid reference to the contrary. After seeing the claims already made in this thread, I started to have a glimmer of doubt, so I did verify to myself I wasn't having an O.L.D. attack ( a common occurrence these days),...

You are wrong. Science is right. I'm going by the fantastic idiotic? unfounded? claims of the scientific community who are more interested in facts than your feelings or personal beliefs or what you sense or mythology. Why attack me? You attack my findings? What did I have a broken thermometer? You try to belittle me? Jag off. Go attack science that says liquid water can certainly occur at temps well below 0* C :confused: IN THE FIELD!

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/at-what-temperature-does-water-freeze-1120813/

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5862789/whats-the-coldest-water-can-possibly-get-before-it-turns-into-ice

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111123133123.htm

Venchka
12-13-2016, 15:09
Dogwood,
Come on man!
3 references to the same laboratory experiment?
No worries.
What we need is a reasonably accurate thermometer, a mountain stream and the ambient temperature below freezing for a few days.
Surely some of the mountain dwelling members here can help us out. Rob? You're nominated.
Lol!
Wayne


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rocketsocks
12-13-2016, 17:02
For instance, I've dropped a thermometer in alpine(high elevation) running/liquid water to find the temp of it to be in the 20's* F.on what planet?

Ktaadn
12-13-2016, 17:19
I'm declaring shenanigans

rocketsocks
12-13-2016, 18:05
I'm declaring shenanigansis that calling bull Shyte?:D

FreeGoldRush
12-13-2016, 18:49
You are wrong. Science is right. I'm going by the fantastic idiotic? unfounded? claims of the scientific community who are more interested in facts than your feelings or personal beliefs or what you sense or mythology. Why attack me? You attack my findings? What did I have a broken thermometer? You try to belittle me? Jag off. Go attack science that says liquid water can certainly occur at temps well below 0* C :confused: IN THE FIELD!

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/at-what-temperature-does-water-freeze-1120813/

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5862789/whats-the-coldest-water-can-possibly-get-before-it-turns-into-ice

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111123133123.htm

The links you provided do not support your claim. I am aware that under carefully controlled conditions you can get pure water below 32 degrees before it freezes. But you will not find water in a mountain stream colder than 32 degrees. :)

NinjaFace
12-13-2016, 20:17
I hardly ever treat my water that far south
, the occasional iodine tablet... with that being said...
Most of all the cases on the Appalachian Trail were people believe they've gotten Giardia was in fact norovirus..

Sawyer mini, was popular last year... as I said.. it's not really needed..

Traveler
12-14-2016, 08:38
I hardly ever treat my water that far south
, the occasional iodine tablet... with that being said...
Most of all the cases on the Appalachian Trail were people believe they've gotten Giardia was in fact norovirus..

Sawyer mini, was popular last year... as I said.. it's not really needed..

Opinions vary on this. The notion that filtration is needed or not needed being opinions, its really up to the individual to decide based on the level of risk/consequence they are willing to tolerate.

I know many who don't filter, their experience has been relatively good in that regard. Mine has been opposite and my tolerance of risk is low when it comes to something so easily preventable. One coin, two sides.

StealthHikerBoy
12-14-2016, 08:47
Not quite sure why I am chiming in, as I rarely hike overnight when it gets below freezing. But, I have a question. Wouldn't Aqua Mira freeze as well? Seems like you'd have the same challenge of keeping the little bottles warm as you do with keeping the filter warm.

Drapac
12-14-2016, 19:01
Not quite sure why I am chiming in, as I rarely hike overnight when it gets below freezing. But, I have a question. Wouldn't Aqua Mira freeze as well? Seems like you'd have the same challenge of keeping the little bottles warm as you do with keeping the filter warm.

If AM freezes, you can thaw it. If a filter freezes, it may become ineffective due to the damage the expanding water/ice would cause.

Traillium
12-14-2016, 19:15
My experience up here in Southern Canada is that our streams are often below freezing in winter as long as they're running vigorously. A favourite demonstration of mine teaching outdoors is winter is to pull a clear plastic water bottle out of my pack, dip it into the stream to fill it, and then set it down. Liquid water below freezing crystallizes and freezes starting within seconds when it stops moving. Within a minute or so, the bottle is filled with slush and ice.
Kinetic Molecular Theory, anyone?

Dogwood
12-14-2016, 19:20
The links you provided do not support your claim. I am aware that under carefully controlled conditions you can get pure water below 32 degrees before it freezes. But you will not find water in a mountain stream colder than 32 degrees. :)

22* F from liquid water running out from a glacier placing thermometer in the stream for 15-20 mins. Later the thermometer I used agreed with readings of two other thermometers. The thermometer was not detective and I very well know how to correctly read a thermometer. The temp reading on the thermometer I was using was verified by the two others in my party. It was likely not pure water as said earlier.

FreeGoldRush
12-14-2016, 19:32
22* F from liquid water running out from a glacier placing thermometer in the stream for 15-20 mins. Later the thermometer I used agreed with readings of two other thermometers. The thermometer was not detective and I very well know how to correctly read a thermometer. The temp reading on the thermometer I was using was verified by the two others in my party. It was likely not pure water as said earlier.

Ok, I'll admit that I may have overlooked something. Can you find a link to something scientific about this phenomenon?

zelph
12-14-2016, 20:57
Watch this video for something of interest:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD_mQSNKhkc

YoungBloodOnTrail
12-15-2016, 09:03
I've always used the sawyer squeeze but like others have said above make sure to keep it in a ziplock baggy in your sleeping bag at night, along with electronics. I've had to replace more than a couple times due to freezing.
I can confirm freezing messes them up though. On the AT mine froze and a week or so later I had giardia.

kayak karl
12-15-2016, 09:29
I've always used the sawyer squeeze but like others have said above make sure to keep it in a ziplock baggy in your sleeping bag at night, along with electronics. I've had to replace more than a couple times due to freezing.
I can confirm freezing messes them up though. On the AT mine froze and a week or so later I had giardia.
How can you be sure it was the water and not personal hygiene practices ?

zelph
12-15-2016, 10:33
FreeGoldRush, did that video help you out any?

nsherry61
12-15-2016, 11:33
We still have a disconnect on this thread between the idea of super-cooled water existing in controlled situation vs. liquid, subfreezing running water.

No duh, super-cooled water exists under certain circumstances. But its existence does not mean that running water in the winter is super-cooled.

Over the three pages of comments in this thread, only one, Trailliam above, presents any first hand experience or even reference to science supporting the idea that water running in winter freezing rapidly after being withdrawn from a stream.

It is likely that vigorously running water in sub-zero conditions is super-cooled, at least somewhat. But how much really? Could you dilute it a little with water from your pack and keep it from freezing? Dogwood suggests glacier water can get into the low 20s F. My experience with glacier runoff is that it flows when things warm up during the day and ceases flowing at night when it is no longer melting. And, I've filled lots of water bottles with glacier runoff, often while on or under glaciers, and I've never had it freeze in my bottle, even though it was very cold.

It is also probable that running water in the 20s - 30s F (conditions representing the most common winter conditions for most of us) is NOT super-cooled and will not freeze after being removed from the stream, and can thus be filtered safely.

It would be really awesome to figure out some guidelines regarding when we might encounter super-cooled water and need to be careful and when it's not an issue. I have certainly never had water from running winter streams freeze in my water bottles immediately after filling them, and that's a few hundred times in temperatures often in the teens (F). Although, I must confess, when it gets cold, I am more often melting snow than finding running water.
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This thread also seems to have a bizarre fear of freezing Sawyer filters. Yeah, they are wrecked if they are frozen, so keep it next to your body and not frozen. This is not a hard task and still a concern even in the spring and fall when temps drop below freezing.

If water freezes in your filter while filtering, it's not going to fail without your knowledge. If somehow you try and filter super-cooled water, it will also plug the filter, so you'll know you have an issue.

FreeGoldRush
12-15-2016, 12:16
FreeGoldRush, did that video help you out any?

No. That video demonstrates conditions very different than what you find in a mountain stream. Water must be stagnant to get the results in that video, and there are many people showing off that fact on YouTube. It must also be free of impurities as much as possible. You won't find any YouTube videos of people doing that with water from a mountain stream because it does not happen.

FreeGoldRush
12-15-2016, 12:24
FreeGoldRush, did that video help you out any?

Trying to use that video as evidence without any understanding of what is happening is a bit like saying, "Because I can make lasagna in my kitchen, therefore it will spontaneously occur in the wild where I can find it."

zelph
12-15-2016, 17:39
Oops, wasted my time I did :-)

Drapac
12-19-2016, 09:12
Well, ANYWAY...thanks to the few that kept their response tied to the original question.

I think I have been sold on AM.

zelph
12-19-2016, 18:43
Well, ANYWAY...thanks to the few that kept their response tied to the original question.

I think I have been sold on AM.

Good choice. Informative topic.