Apple House Shelter?

[Mike Stoup]

I have seen posts where the Apple House Shelter has been removed. We will be hiking that way this summer and would like to stop there for the night. We will be using tents and hammocks so don't need the shelter but can anyone tell me if that is a good place to stop? We will have a large group: 12-16 people, most in hammocks. Thanks

[MuddyWaters]

Its very close to road is why its torn down. It was a local party spot.
Its a small clearing next to the trail .

There apparently was plan to add tent pads after shelter was torn down.I dont know if they did. Last time I was there several yrs ago there was still pile of shelter debris.

I would not call it a particularly good spot. I dont think anyone has missed it. Flat low lying area near road. Most continue to mountain harbor nobo.

Your group exceeds the size for AT overnight camping.

[NinjaFace]

your group is fine man..
its good spot ..

[MuddyWaters]

your group is fine man..
its good spot ..

AT has regulations on group size. Check the compendium.

25 for day hiking
10 for overnight camping

You can choose to ignore
Doing so says lots about you , and your group however

Groups monopolize space, and create disturbances. That is why it is addressed.

[NinjaFace]

I'm not going to get into a white blaze debate with you. but if you want to meet me in person and discuss this I'm up here in Pine Grove furnace..

[MuddyWaters]

Nothing to debate. Check ATC site.

I only tell people what the rules are supposed to be, because many for some reason , think there are absolutely none when it cones to the AT, and dont bother to even check.

If they dont want to follow, thats their business.

As an ex scout leader myself, what I personally find appalling is the number of scout leaders willing to ignore such things because they can. most large groups are scouts. Leaders are supposed to set good examples, but I suppose theres all kinds of troops. We experienced graffitti, theft, smoking, profanity, etc at some camps by troops from other areas. The worst was where kids from an inner-city troop smeared feces on walls of bathroom. Like father like son...

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/volunteer/toolkit-for-trail-clubs/trail-management-policies

What the hell ill post it:

Requirements for Organized Group Use
A voluntary trip-notification program and, where required, an agency-established permit, should
be established for organized groups of 6 or more on overnight visits, and 15 or more on day
visits. Consideration of social and natural-resource carrying capacities should be made before a
permit is issued.

This policy on Organized Group Use reaffirms the guidance on group size limitations contained
in ATC’s 1993 Policy on Special Events and Large Group Use, which states that camping
groups should not exceed 10 persons at any one overnight use area, and day use should not
exceed 25 persons at any one location, except when a land-managing agency regulation
establishes a different limit. Organized groups should be well-acquainted with Leave No Trace
practices and voluntary Trail stewardship opportunities prior to embarking on their trips, and
should practice both while on the Trail.
Groups of 6 or more, whether “organized” or not, are strongly encouraged to use group
campsites where they exist. Land-managing agencies, the ATC and A.T. clubs should work
toward designating appropriate locations for group camping for groups of 6 or more. To avoid
groups “taking over” the limited space available at shelters, any group of 6 or more should plan
to camp in tents they carry, rather than staying in shelters.

[Slo-go'en]

12-16 people would be a bit crowded at the Apple House site, even with hammocks. You'd have to disperse into a fairly wide area to find enough suitable trees. I imagine the Apple House site isn't the only place you plan to stay. If coming from the south, the Overmountian shelter can handle a big crowd, but the sites south of there can't. And you have to remember there will be others there too.

It's a good bet that 12-16 people means a Scout or church group. Your coming up all the way from central Florida so you want to maximize the group size which is understandable, but it is ethically reprehensible. Breaking the group up into two parties helps, but you need to keep them 2 days apart, which complicates the logistics.

[Abatis1948]

I have a friend that was a boy scout leader at one time. Hetold me he took a large group of scouts from Panama City to the smokes once.The Troop divided into two groups to follow the rules on groups. Both groupshad a great time and having two different groups provided great discussions andcamp stores the boys could share. No need to be two days apart, just hike different directions.

[Mr. Bumpy]

This discussion is reminding me a situation I personally encountered. The leader of a large group who had taken over a shelter was politely informed of the rule restrictions for group sizes for a shelter but his response was that of stubborn arrogance and refusal to leave. They could have moved on as there was time, place, and good weather but they declined. Another party, who arrived first, then commenced to spark one up in the presence of the kids who were generally raising hell, jumping about, kicking dirt, climbing trees, and messing with the spring. The leader of the group then blew a gasket and after a short but heated exchange had his group pack up and leave.

[Sarcasm the elf]

This discussion is reminding me a situation I personally encountered. The leader of a large group who had taken over a shelter was politely informed of the rule restrictions for group sizes for a shelter but his response was that of stubborn arrogance and refusal to leave. They could have moved on as there was time, place, and good weather but they declined. Another party, who arrived first, then commenced to spark one up in the presence of the kids who were generally raising hell, jumping about, kicking dirt, climbing trees, and messing with the spring. The leader of the group then blew a gasket and after a short but heated exchange had his group pack up and leave.

While I certainly don't condone such actions, that there's funny!

[Mr. Bumpy]

While I certainly don't condone such actions, that there's funny!

At the moment when that group left, I bet you would have condoned it. :rolleyes: The code phrase, "Hoods in the Woods Repellent" was coined that day.

[swisscross]

Nothing to debate. Check ATC site.

I only tell people what the rules are supposed to be, because many for some reason , think there are absolutely none when it cones to the AT, and dont bother to even check.

If they dont want to follow, thats their business.

As an ex scout leader myself, what I personally find appalling is the number of scout leaders willing to ignore such things because they can. most large groups are scouts. Leaders are supposed to set good examples, but I suppose theres all kinds of troops. We experienced graffitti, theft, smoking, profanity, etc at some camps by troops from other areas. The worst was where kids from an inner-city troop smeared feces on walls of bathroom. Like father like son...

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/volunteer/toolkit-for-trail-clubs/trail-management-policies

What the hell ill post it:

Requirements for Organized Group Use
A voluntary trip-notification program and, where required, an agency-established permit, should
be established for organized groups of 6 or more on overnight visits, and 15 or more on day
visits. Consideration of social and natural-resource carrying capacities should be made before a
permit is issued.

This policy on Organized Group Use reaffirms the guidance on group size limitations contained
in ATC’s 1993 Policy on Special Events and Large Group Use, which states that camping
groups should not exceed 10 persons at any one overnight use area, and day use should not
exceed 25 persons at any one location, except when a land-managing agency regulation
establishes a different limit. Organized groups should be well-acquainted with Leave No Trace
practices and voluntary Trail stewardship opportunities prior to embarking on their trips, and
should practice both while on the Trail.
Groups of 6 or more, whether “organized” or not, are strongly encouraged to use group
campsites where they exist. Land-managing agencies, the ATC and A.T. clubs should work
toward designating appropriate locations for group camping for groups of 6 or more. To avoid
groups “taking over” the limited space available at shelters, any group of 6 or more should plan
to camp in tents they carry, rather than staying in shelters.



Above IS subject to debate.
Laurie from the ATC posted a graph of NOBO finishers from the class of 2015.
The graph showed up to 40 plus starting on a single day. With the success rate of a thru being around 25 percent one can assume that up to 160 starting on a single day.
There are many campsites and shelters in GA but not near enough to limit the number/group that the above ATC quote ALLOWS.
MW says above "If they dot want to follow, thats their business." (Sorry the ATC is NOT a law making or enforcing agency)
following up with "appalling".

What I find appalling is that the ATC preaches (and their followers) limited group size yet refuse to control the amount of hiker starting their quest to greatness.

[MuddyWaters]

Above IS subject to debate.
Laurie from the ATC posted a graph of NOBO finishers from the class of 2015.
The graph showed up to 40 plus starting on a single day. With the success rate of a thru being around 25 percent one can assume that up to 160 starting on a single day.
There are many campsites and shelters in GA but not near enough to limit the number/group that the above ATC quote ALLOWS.
MW says above "If they dot want to follow, thats their business." (Sorry the ATC is NOT a law making or enforcing agency)
following up with "appalling".

What I find appalling is that the ATC preaches (and their followers) limited group size yet refuse to control the amount of hiker starting their quest to greatness.









groups that travel together and camp together monopolize space and create disturbances that individual hikers dont.

You will find more stringent group size restrictions than the AT, in some national parks. GSMNP for example. However, group size limit restrictions is a consistent theme for backcountry use in the national park system .

Is it enforced on AT...no, theres no one to enforce it.
Is it debateable...No, its written in the compendium of orders for the AT, and last reaffirmed in 2015

[Sarcasm the elf]

Above IS subject to debate.
Laurie from the ATC posted a graph of NOBO finishers from the class of 2015.
The graph showed up to 40 plus starting on a single day. With the success rate of a thru being around 25 percent one can assume that up to 160 starting on a single day.
There are many campsites and shelters in GA but not near enough to limit the number/group that the above ATC quote ALLOWS.
MW says above "If they dot want to follow, thats their business." (Sorry the ATC is NOT a law making or enforcing agency)
following up with "appalling".

What I find appalling is that the ATC preaches (and their followers) limited group size yet refuse to control the amount of hiker starting their quest to greatness.








The basic idea, so far as I understand it is that there is a big difference in how a large group that is hiking together will act and treat a shared site versus how individual hikers camping in a communal area will act. Over the years I have been on all sides of this situation, I've been in groups that were causing trouble and in groups that were respectful I have also shared sites many times with both good and bad groups. Big groups of people that know each other are much more likely to monopolize and area and to be inconsiderate or exclusionary to other hikers using the area and large groups are also more likely to be made up of less experienced hikers who may not have the knowledge or interest in being considerate or following LNT best practices. This is of course a generalization (and is certainly not directed at the opening poster), but it seems to be the case more often than not, large groups aren't a good thing to have on the trail.

As to your other point you are entirely correct, that link and quote are simply an ATC policy statement and guideline, not an enforceable rule, however some sections of the A.T. run through jurisdictions that have enforceable regulations about group size and camping and this should be kept in mind when planning a trip.

[swisscross]

groups that travel together and camp together monopolize space and create disturbances that individual hikers dont.

You will find more stringent group size restrictions than the AT, in some national parks. GSMNP for example. However, group size limit restrictions is a consistent theme for backcountry use in the national park system .

Is it enforced on AT...no, theres no one to enforce it.
Is it debateable...No, its written in the compendium of orders for the AT, and last reaffirmed in 2015

Are you saying a few (up to 160 individuals) is not considered a group?
"compendium of ORDERS for the AT", ha. Without addressing the destructive nature of the bubble their compendium lacks respect.

[MuddyWaters]

Are you saying a few (up to 160 individuals) is not considered a group?
"compendium of ORDERS for the AT", ha. Without addressing the destructive nature of the bubble their compendium lacks respect.

The ATC does not make or enforce rules.
The specific rules for national park lands are documented in the compendium of orders for each park, as an addendum to the general provisions of 36 CFR
This is signed by the Chief Park Ranger and Park Manager of the NPS

Individual trail organizations set the recommended limits in their areas, . If GATC wanted to make it 30 for groups, they could. They did not. Across the board it is the same in all areas, and was defined long ago when there were much less people on the trail.

One of the stumbling blocks is that the rules for the AT, spell out that access to it was to be kept as free and open as possible.
No one ever , in their wildest dreams, imagined what April would be like 80 years later.
The ATC is trying to walk a line between the original intention of open access, and managing crowds

But we have voluntary registration for thruhikers
You see above where they mention voluntary registration and permitting of groups too
Its coming.

Lack of more attention to the problem, and lack of desire to focus on preservation of experience in the woods, as opposed to numbers of people, is particularly why I have little respect for the ATC and almost consider the AT to be a lost cause. It needs limits on access at times and places , it need limits on thru hikers in the spring. It needs them now. At the same time there are other constant threats due to it existing in highly populated area.

[Emerson Bigills]

In most trail venues, following the "rules" is more about "doing the right thing" and where an individual's own moral compass points. The number of people with the authority to enforce rules is pretty limited. The preponderance of the rules are there for the good of all, not just at that moment, but for years to come.

[mountain squid]

Are you saying a few (up to 160 individuals) is not considered a group?
"compendium of ORDERS for the AT", ha. Without addressing the destructive nature of the bubble their compendium lacks respect.Those are not groups, they are individuals. And your 'assumption' is not even close or logical. I've been going to Springer every year during peak hiker season. The most 'thru' hikers I've seen on any given day is 71 and that includes those starting on the Approach Trail and those starting from FS42. So they are spread out over probably 20 miles or so.

You can see some stats from this thread: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/14493-observations-from-fs42-(advice-for-first-week-on-trail)

The ATC has implemented a 'voluntary' registration system to help lessen the overcrowding in GA. Per the graphs (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/thru-hiking/voluntary-thru-hiker-registration/2016-thru-hiker-registration-charts) it appears that the ATC is limiting starters to 60 on any given day at Springer. These are individual hikers not groups.

There will be groups that do show up however, as well as section hikers, and, at this point, they will not be registered. Groups which include churches, scouts, colleges, etc.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

(http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100363-2014-Norovirus-Awareness)how to hike (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?73587-how-to-hike)

twitter (https://twitter.com/mountainsquid04)

[swisscross]

Those are not groups, they are individuals. And your 'assumption' is not even close or logical. I've been going to Springer every year during peak hiker season. The most 'thru' hikers I've seen on any given day is 71 and that includes those starting on the Approach Trail and those starting from FS42. So they are spread out over probably 20 miles or so.

You can see some stats from this thread: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/14493-observations-from-fs42-(advice-for-first-week-on-trail)

The ATC has implemented a 'voluntary' registration system to help lessen the overcrowding in GA. Per the graphs (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/thru-hiking/voluntary-thru-hiker-registration/2016-thru-hiker-registration-charts) it appears that the ATC is limiting starters to 60 on any given day at Springer. These are individual hikers not groups.

There will be groups that do show up however, as well as section hikers, and, at this point, they will not be registered. Groups which include churches, scouts, colleges, etc.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

(http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100363-2014-Norovirus-Awareness)how to hike (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?73587-how-to-hike)

twitter (https://twitter.com/mountainsquid04)

Vonuntary, should be mandatory.
Permits seem to work pretty well for the PCT.
No permit, no acceptant through the smokies, shinnys and hopefully Baxter.
Even at your quoted 71, exceeds the ATC group count.
If anyone thinks that a mass of people, collectively, doing the same, in the same direction with the same goal of completing the AT in a calander year not a GROUP is insane.
Mobs start out with a few and quickly turn into, say 71 people, ruining everything.

We should embrace our future hikers...scouts, church group, etc.

I prefer my quite.
But going back to MW and the ATC, until they control the masses they should keep their trap shut.

[Tennessee Viking]

I would just make arrangements with Mtn Harbor for your group.