Winter bag

[hikernutcasey]

Let me preface this by saying I only winter camp about once or twice per winter for only 1 or 2 nights at a time. All my gear is 3 season and I always watch the weather to make sure I'm not going to face anything so extreme that I can't make it with my gear and just taking along a lot of extra clothing.

That being said I would like to have a warmer bag for these trips. Because I would need it so infrequently, I don't want to drop a lot of cash. Is the Kelty Cosmic 0 degree still considered the best for the money? Most sites are selling it for around $165. I realize it's heavy but I don't worry about weight in the winter as much since I'm not making big miles and my trips are shorter so I don't have a lot of food weight.

Any suggestions on other bags on the cheap?

[soumodeler]

Not sure about that particular model, but I had a Kelty Cosmic 20 and it was a rather optimistic rating on it. More like a 40 degree bag. The 0 may be better made and more accurately rated. You might want to look at the Marmot Trestles 0. I have had good experience with Marmot bags in the past.

[Old Hiker]

Sent my Kelty 20* bag back as it couldn't handle Florida 35-40* weather in the backyard. Same as post #2 above - my Marmot Trestle 20* has done very well. Lower it to 0*, maybe?

[colorado_rob]

Have you looked at layering a quilt with a lighter duty bag? I'm experimenting with this this winter; using my 30 degree bag with my 21 degree quilt on top and tucked in around, with a R5 pad system, should work well to somewhat below zero comfortably. Theoretically.... It's all about total loft, and not compressing your inner bag too much, which a quilt would not do.

Look at the western mountaineering sleeping bag spec sheet for temperature rating vs. total loft. For example, 7-8" of loft above you (and on the sides) should get you comfy close to zero.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/sleeping-bags/specification-chart/

There are some relatively inexpensive quilts out there which you could layer with whatever 3-season bag you have. I'd add a closed cell foam with your inflatable, assuming you have an inflatable air mattress.

[Sarcasm the elf]

EMS has a relatively new to the market "value" down sleeping bag called the Simmer Down 0* which is on sale for $186. I haven't tried it, but I have owned several of their other bags over the years and have been very happy with them.

It is a bit heavy at 4lb, 4oz however unlike some manufacturers, EMS bags are typically true or conservative in their temperature comfort rating. I have had my EMS zero degree bag in zero degree temperature on many occasions and am able to sleep comfortably (YMMV).

http://www.ems.com/ems-simmer-down-0°-sleeping-bag/1303287.html

[Hikingjim]

A 40f sleeping bag with draft collar and my 20f quilt work well at 0. Weighs about 3.5 lbs (long/wide versions of both).
My two sleeping mats (foam + inflatable) give me r value of around 4.7. I wouldn't want to go lower than that

I don't like the idea of 2 quilts layered at 0f personally. Gets a little drafty for me when I move around, and I don't really like using straps except loosely when necessary

[rocketsocks]

EMS has a relatively new to the market "value" down sleeping bag called the Simmer Down 0* which is on sale for $186. I haven't tried it, but I have owned several of their other bags over the years and have been very happy with them.

It is a bit heavy at 4lb, 4oz however unlike some manufacturers, EMS bags are typically true or conservative in their temperature comfort rating. I have had my EMS zero degree bag in zero degree temperature on many occasions and am able to sleep comfortably (YMMV).

http://www.ems.com/ems-simmer-down-0°-sleeping-bag/1303287.htmlSeems a economical choice if ya can't pull the pin on a Western Mountianeering bag.

[ScareBear]

I find Montbell is only a couple of degrees optimistic. Quality and design at a respectable price. 3lb6oz http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=1005&p_id=2321169

Kelty is a lower-end(quality, materials and price) product. However, I have this bag in 20degree in my quiver and find that the rating is about 7 degrees too optimistic...if you need proof, just visit their website. They clearly admit they rate a bag 0 when the EN lower limit rating for the bag is 5. At least they are honest about it!!! If you can find a Kelty Ignite 0(discontinued) I'd snag it. Haven't heard anything about the Cosmic 0...it's only 4lb2oz...for a 5 degree bag...just sayin!

The prices of down bags are, IMHO:
175-275 for a lower-end EN 0 bag(e.g. Kelty)
275-400 for a mid-range EN 0 bag(e.g. Montbell)
400-??? for a high-end EN 0 bag(e.g. Nemo)

The major differences in down bag pricing are the fill-power of the down, whether the down is treated, the design and construction technique/skill, and the fabric cost. As fill-power goes up so does price and weight goes down. As fabric cost goes up so does quality and weight goes down. As design costs go up, comfort increases and maybe a little bit more warmth/ounce. As construction technique/skill increases, quality and price goes up. In a down bag, you REALLY do get what you pay for, IMHO. I always search for closeouts and discontinued down bags, never paying retail. You can get a $500 Nemo for 250 if you don't mind 2015 or 2014 models...

[hikernutcasey]

Thanks for the suggestions. I did some research on layering two sleeping bags together. I've got a 20 degree down and a 40 degree synthetic on hand already. I might do some home testing layering those two together. I'm only trying to get down to zero and even that would be extreme for where I'm going. Thoughts?

[Greenlight]

You might want to check out Outdoor Vitals. Newer company, several down products with low prices and good user reviews. Their 0 degree down bag is on sale under $200


Let me preface this by saying I only winter camp about once or twice per winter for only 1 or 2 nights at a time. All my gear is 3 season and I always watch the weather to make sure I'm not going to face anything so extreme that I can't make it with my gear and just taking along a lot of extra clothing.

That being said I would like to have a warmer bag for these trips. Because I would need it so infrequently, I don't want to drop a lot of cash. Is the Kelty Cosmic 0 degree still considered the best for the money? Most sites are selling it for around $165. I realize it's heavy but I don't worry about weight in the winter as much since I'm not making big miles and my trips are shorter so I don't have a lot of food weight.

Any suggestions on other bags on the cheap?

[Sarcasm the elf]

Thanks for the suggestions. I did some research on layering two sleeping bags together. I've got a 20 degree down and a 40 degree synthetic on hand already. I might do some home testing layering those two together. I'm only trying to get down to zero and even that would be extreme for where I'm going. Thoughts?


Here is what Enlightened Equipment has to say about it regarding their products:

https://support.enlightenedequipment.com/hc/en-us/articles/218158868-Quilt-Layering

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/webkit-fake-url://4dc051f9-56b0-45a1-960a-78f59a140d30/imagejpeg

[johnnybgood]

The aspect of layering seems cumbersome at best and not optimizing either bags insulating qualities.

Have you checked out the Marmot Never Summer 0 degree Down bag , sold at REI ? www.rei.com/product/895824/marmot-never-down-sleeping-bag (http://www.rei.com/product/895824/marmot-never-down-sleeping-bag)

I almost bought this bag a few years back before ultimately buying my 10 * quilt for winter backpacking trips.

[MuddyWaters]

The aspect of layering seems cumbersome at best and not optimizing either bags insulating qualities.



it is
and your head gets cold too because not enough insulation on it below 20F
the hoods that various people sell, are not designed for 0 F
More like 20-25

[Hikingjim]

Thanks for the suggestions. I did some research on layering two sleeping bags together. I've got a 20 degree down and a 40 degree synthetic on hand already. I might do some home testing layering those two together. I'm only trying to get down to zero and even that would be extreme for where I'm going. Thoughts? I find layering works with the following assumptions: you have good enough sleeping pad(s), you don't compress down significantly, and you have enough head/neck insulation. Cumbersome, yes. But, if only used twice a year, it can beat buying a low fill power bag that's not saving you any weight and costing extra money.
I have done trips with sleds where I bring a bunch of random crap and have experimented with various options and found out which of my pieces work well together and which don't. For head insulation you have options, such as separate down hoods (expensive, have not used personally), hats, neck gaiter, wearing your hooded down jacket, sleeping bag neck collar. The colder it is, the more of those you want to combine.
It is harder work to figure out what works if you combine bags, so just make sure you test it well before you get too far away!

A high quality bag for the right temp rating is always more efficient, and if an 800 fill -10f bag was in my closet, I'd go ahead an grab it.

[nsherry61]

The aspect of layering seems cumbersome at best and not optimizing either bags insulating qualities. . .
Owning a sub-zero expedition winter down bag, I have found I rarely use it any more. The winter expedition bag is big, bulky, and often too warm.
I find that combining my synthetic summer quilt and my 20*F bag work excellently together for many reasons.

1) Combined, my summer quilt plus my 3-season down bag weigh about the same and take up about the same amount of space as my winter expedition bag.
2) Most of my winter back-country skiing and camping and snowshoeing is in above zero or slightly below zero conditions for which my hybrid system works exceptionally well.
3) On multi-night trips, where I have moisture condensing within the insulation of my sleep system, with the synthetic quilt on top, it condenses in the quilt instead of in my down bag. When they are then packed up separately, my down stays exceptionally dry, and a little moisture in my synthetic quilt is a non-issue. Without the separate synthetic top layer, the down seems to loose more loft and warmth over multiple days of cold weather sleeping.
4) I like the idea of using a highly effective sleep system that costs 1/2 of what my winter expedition bag cost. In a way, it is a free winter sleep system, because, I use the quilt in the summer and the sleeping bag in the shoulder seasons anyway. So winter is just a free bonus use of two great sleeping pieces used together.
5) When the winter night is not particularly cold, it is nice to be able to throw back the quilt a bit and still be completely covered and cozy and draft free in my bag. Then, pull the quilt back up in the colder early morning if desired.

On one final note: I'm a big fan of using an inflatable pad combined with a CCF pad for winter sleeping, as others have noted above. It gives the needed warmth using summer gear I already have. But more importantly, it gives the comfort of an inflatable, with the reliability of some guaranteed insulation, even if my inflatable springs a leak that I can't find and fix easily.

[rocketsocks]

On one final note: I'm a big fan of using an inflatable pad combined with a CCF pad for winter sleeping, as others have noted above. It gives the needed warmth using summer gear I already have. But more importantly, it gives the comfort of an inflatable, with the reliability of some guaranteed insulation, even if my inflatable springs a leak that I can't find and fix easily.particuly if it's an insulated inflatable.

[cmoulder]

Another possibility is wearing your down parka and down pants inside your bag/quilt.

I built my sleep system around this concept. I have an EE Enigma 20°F quilt, which I got in the long/wide size in order to make room for my Eddie Bauer down parka and Montbell down pants. I use a 3/8" CCF mat over a torso/wide (47"x25") NeoAir Trekker, with my pack under my lower legs. I've used this combo comfortably down to -5°F. Including my Exped pillow, this system weighs 2.8 lb.

Definitely deep into YMMV territory, and I field tested this setup thoroughly before trusting it enough to take it far into the hills. But it can work and it saves a lot of bulk and weight by using stuff you're carrying anyway.

[hikernutcasey]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with layering bags. I feel like this is the best option for me since I already have a shoulder season and a summer bag. In a perfect world yes I would just spring for one of the bags that was suggested in this thread but with the limited amount of winter camping I do, why spend the money when I can create the equivalent with what I already have?

Obviously, I need to do some trial runs and play around with it but the weight of my two bags is similar to if not lighter than a zero degree bag in the lower price range. I just don't want to put that much money in something I'm going to sleep in a couple nights a year.

[rocketsocks]

Another possibility is wearing your down parka and down pants inside your bag/quilt.

I built my sleep system around this concept. I have an EE Enigma 20°F quilt, which I got in the long/wide size in order to make room for my Eddie Bauer down parka and Montbell down pants. I use a 3/8" CCF mat over a torso/wide (47"x25") NeoAir Trekker, with my pack under my lower legs. I've used this combo comfortably down to -5°F. Including my Exped pillow, this system weighs 2.8 lb.

Definitely deep into YMMV territory, and I field tested this setup thoroughly before trusting it enough to take it far into the hills. But it can work and it saves a lot of bulk and weight by using stuff you're carrying anyway.i placed mine over top, it helped albeit just a little.

[cmoulder]

i placed mine over top, it helped albeit just a little.

That's a far cry from what I described so it's not a surprise that it didn't help much. ;)

[Engine]

I haven't had temperatures cold enough to test it, but my WM Highlight fits nicely under my EE 20* Revelation. Based on the chart from EE, it SHOULD get me down to around -15. Since it adds a down mummy hood to the equation, maybe it would even beat that by a bit. The combined weight of both bags is under 2 1/4 pounds...I might have to do a winter trip gear test. :-?

[cmoulder]

That's a very respectably low weight for a -15 setup. And the EE sleep pad straps will keep it all together.

Although I like the sewn foot box of the Enigma, the Rev footbox is superb for this combo as it can be opened up to accommodate the WM bag's footbox. Nice! :sun

[Cheyou]

That's a very respectably low weight for a -15 setup. And the EE sleep pad straps will keep it all together.

Although I like the sewn foot box of the Enigma, the Rev footbox is superb for this combo as it can be opened up to accommodate the WM bag's footbox. Nice! :sun

I use a enigma 30°short reg, inside a rev 20°reg wide for cold . When I have used the rev unzipped it seams to always find its was out of my Deschutes tarp and damp with dew. So I don't unzip the foot box.

Thom

[MtDoraDave]

My experience layering bags didn't work for me, so I bought a 0 degree bag. I, too, thought it was a waste of money to buy something that cost that much and will be needed so little - until that night I was uncomfortably cold all night inside two bags! I bought the Never Summer 0 degree bag - got it on sale for $215. I have spent a few nights in the teens with it and a several nights in the 20's with it, and I have been toasty warm wearing only my base layer.

I'm not saying layering bags won't work - too many people have done it successfully, and Wiggy's even sells their "FTRSS" (sleep system) stuff that includes an overbag that lowers the temperature rating of the bag (system) considerably; 40 degrees they claim.

[nsherry61]

My experience layering bags didn't work for me . . .
A thought or two on layered sleep systems . . .
1) One bag inside another seldom works well because there isn't enough room for the inner bag to loft well, or the sleeping person to move around comfortably. An inner bag under an unzipped outer bag might solve this problem.
2) Layering with a quilt on top of a bag or another quilt doesn't have the above problems, but does still reduce the loft of the under-bag slightly, so a 2" loft inner bag plus a 2" loft top-quilt will probably only be about a 3" or 3.5" loft system.
3) Finally, my favorite reason for using a layered sleeping system in the winter, commented on above also, is that by using a synthetic top-quilt and stuffing it separately from my down bag (albeit inside the same trash compacter bag), keeps my down bag exceptionally dry by moving the dewpoint layer of condensation outside off my down insulation. It also keeps the spindrift away from my down as well.

[HaChayalBoded]

Then the layering system isn't the right design. If you're compressing the inner bag because the outer bag is too small you're just going to waste your time.

I use an oversized rectangular summer bag over whatever bag I happen to be using for winter conditions. I think it was a 2.5lb 40 degree bag that was 36x80. It had decent loft, I think around 4 or 5". In it I was using a MH 30 degree ultra lamina.

I survived 3 days temps that hovered around 0F. I was wearing an expedition weight baselayer and two pairs of socks, a thick hat and I snuggled up to a 50oz nalgene bottle filled with boiling water. The bags worked because the water was hot enough for coffee and outmeal in the morning.

[Kerosene]

Finally, my favorite reason for using a layered sleeping system in the winter, commented on above also, is that by using a synthetic top-quilt and stuffing it separately from my down bag (albeit inside the same trash compacter bag), keeps my down bag exceptionally dry by moving the dewpoint layer of condensation outside off my down insulation. It also keeps the spindrift away from my down as well.What synthetic quilt do you have?

[Just Tom]

Just last weekend I was testing out the layering thing. EE Prodigy 40 degree (Long Wide) over a JRB 45 degree down quilt. Synthetic on the outside to deal with moisture and sized to not compress the inner bag. Night time low was 14 degrees maybe? Not problems with warmth at all. I did also utilize a lightweight bivy, so that might skew the results a bit.