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saltysack
12-28-2016, 12:06
I currently use an xterm large during colder weather, xlite in large the rest of the year. On paddle trips I tend to use a zlite. Do you supplement pads even with a high r value pad such as xtherm? Just curious....


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jimmyjam
12-28-2016, 12:23
I supplement my inflatable in the shoulder seasons with a 1/8" eva foam pad and it makes a huge difference. I don't spend nights out in the winter.

Feral Bill
12-28-2016, 12:23
In winter I use cheap blue foam pad under a short thermarest. It works well.

MuddyWaters
12-28-2016, 12:29
you dont need any supplementation to the xtherm

redundancy is a different consideration

one well known person here stashes extra pads ahead of time in case of failures

CCF is certainly more reliable, and a case can be made for CCF supplemented with lighter inflatable, as opposed to just single xtherm

I dont hesitate to just take xtherm for nights below 20 though.

Tipi Walter
12-28-2016, 12:39
I always take a backup solution on my long winter trips because there's no bail-out option when it's 0F and my sleeping pad dies.

** On Day 1 of a 19 day winter trip I had a fancy Exped downmat blow a baffle and had to pull a 12 mile detour to an emergency Thermarest cache I set up weeks before just for this very scenario. Sucked.

** Now my winter system plans for all types of problems and so I bring my regular Thermarest inflatable at 4R (Trail Pro)---durable and comfy. With me I have a Ridgerest Solar ccf pad at 3.5R so if my inflatable dies I can double up the Solar and get 7R in a pinch.

** I also carry a standard small and light NeoAir pad---never used so far---and it's part of my standard winter load---just keep it in my pack and carry it for the whole trip. It only offers comfort on a long trip and not warmth---the Solar ccf pad provides the warmth and would be placed on top of this NeoAir if needed in an emergency.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-sVBT5gh/0/XL/TRIP%20170%20005-XL.jpg

Tipi Walter
12-28-2016, 12:50
you dont need any supplementation to the xtherm

redundancy is a different consideration

one well known person here stashes extra pads ahead of time in case of failures

CCF is certainly more reliable, and a case can be made for CCF supplemented with lighter inflatable, as opposed to just single xtherm

I dont hesitate to just take xtherm for nights below 20 though.

When I'm pulling a long trip in a certain region and doing loops and all else, I can easily bury an emergency Thermarest cache and return to it in a pinch. And since the Xtherm is an inflatable, you DO need supplementation because inflatables can die at any moment---pinholes, delamination, the valve leaks etc.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Backpacking-Bryan-DeLay/i-hgmbLsL/0/XL/TRIP%20148%20007-XL.jpg
Here's an emergency Thermarest I had stashed off a wilderness trail and went in after the trip for evac pickup and removal. I keep these pads wrapped in garbage bags and stuff sacks to keep dry. (Though they are not bear proof!!).

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-hdSCft9/0/XL/TRIP%20167%20014-XL.jpg
Here I was getting ready to pull a 19 day winter trip into the Snowbird backcountry and humped my emergency Thermarest a half mile into the woods past the trailhead to bury and have just in case. Cold uncomfortable sleeping will ruin a winter trip.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-in-the-Snow/i-9JkZwbR/0/XL/TRIP%20153%20270-XL.jpg
Another option is to use two inflatables and use a homemade elastic band to keep them together. If one inflatable dies you always have the other. This system is very comfy and decent.

Ktaadn
12-28-2016, 12:53
I have carried a ccf pad as backup/bonus in the winter but I don't always. I have had an air pad fail on a single digit night. That was easily the coldest night of my life. Mostly I rubbed my feet together while waiting for the sun to come up so that I could start hiking again.

ScareBear
12-28-2016, 13:51
It weighs little, costs little, is waterproof, can be cut for other uses(emergency medical situations), adds significant R value for winter camping, and is cheap insurance against inflatable pad failure.

It seems the real question should be "Who DOESN'T carry a CCF pad in winter, and why NOT?"

Tipi Walter
12-28-2016, 13:59
I have carried a ccf pad as backup/bonus in the winter but I don't always. I have had an air pad fail on a single digit night. That was easily the coldest night of my life. Mostly I rubbed my feet together while waiting for the sun to come up so that I could start hiking again.

I've had alot of cold nights this year---a year which is almost over---and can remember last January's trip in severe cold and February's 5 separate snowstorms but dangit all to living heck my most recent December trip really kicked my butt. I was on State Line Ridge on the BMT in a December cold snap and packing up on Day 9 of the trip really screwed up my mind. What's weird is it wasn't all that cold, maybe 15F, and yet the wind blew away all motivation to leave the tent and pack the tent and spend all day in the ridgetop wind.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/17-Days-in-the-Bald-River/i-G6Kg43D/0/XL/P1000223-XL.jpg
See? It doesn't look all that bad. Maybe 12F as it was 16F off the mountain in Tellico Plains. But the wind changes everything and dropped the temps down to some minus numbers.

saltysack
12-28-2016, 14:18
you dont need any supplementation to the xtherm

redundancy is a different consideration

one well known person here stashes extra pads ahead of time in case of failures

CCF is certainly more reliable, and a case can be made for CCF supplemented with lighter inflatable, as opposed to just single xtherm

I dont hesitate to just take xtherm for nights below 20 though.

[emoji3]....I wish my trips were as long as his!!


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saltysack
12-28-2016, 14:22
I always take a backup solution on my long winter trips because there's no bail-out option when it's 0F and my sleeping pad dies.

** On Day 1 of a 19 day winter trip I had a fancy Exped downmat blow a baffle and had to pull a 12 mile detour to an emergency Thermarest cache I set up weeks before just for this very scenario. Sucked.

** Now my winter system plans for all types of problems and so I bring my regular Thermarest inflatable at 4R (Trail Pro)---durable and comfy. With me I have a Ridgerest Solar ccf pad at 3.5R so if my inflatable dies I can double up the Solar and get 7R in a pinch.

** I also carry a standard small and light NeoAir pad---never used so far---and it's part of my standard winter load---just keep it in my pack and carry it for the whole trip. It only offers comfort on a long trip and not warmth---the Solar ccf pad provides the warmth and would be placed on top of this NeoAir if needed in an emergency.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-sVBT5gh/0/XL/TRIP%20170%20005-XL.jpg

Tipi I dream that one day I'll be able to go out for a month at a time! These days I'm lucky to get out 3-4 days at a time...currently I'm stuck in the fast and light camp as like walking more than camping....though I'll likely try carrying a partial zlite to see how much warmth it adds....


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saltysack
12-28-2016, 14:26
Food for thought....Would the 14-18oz penalty be more beneficial underneath or on top....a second quilt on top or second pad underneath???


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Tipi Walter
12-28-2016, 14:31
Tipi I dream that one day I'll be able to go out for a month at a time! These days I'm lucky to get out 3-4 days at a time...currently I'm stuck in the fast and light camp as like walking more than camping....though I'll likely try carrying a partial zlite to see how much warmth it adds....


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Long trips do have their own logistics and their own psychological details usually not discovered until a person pulls such long trips without interruption. There are many strange perceptions on a long trip missing from short weekend trips. As in: Day 1 on a 21 day trip REALLY feels special---that first step away from the car and onto the trail is fantastic because you know you have everything you need for 21 days and can take whatever possible weather conditions Miss Nature decides to unleash.

And Day 10 unfolds more of the human onion as you discover other solitary parts of yourself Etc.

rocketsocks
12-28-2016, 14:50
I don't know about extra, but I thought a blow up in winter and a closed cell foam pad were standard fare...at least they are for me.

saltysack
12-28-2016, 14:50
Long trips do have their own logistics and their own psychological details usually not discovered until a person pulls such long trips without interruption. There are many strange perceptions on a long trip missing from short weekend trips. As in: Day 1 on a 21 day trip REALLY feels special---that first step away from the car and onto the trail is fantastic because you know you have everything you need for 21 days and can take whatever possible weather conditions Miss Nature decides to unleash.

And Day 10 unfolds more of the human onion as you discover other solitary parts of yourself Etc.

I'm sure the longest stretch without a resupply for me was under a week on Jmt from MTR to lone pine....can't imagine 3 weeks.....one day...


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jimmyjam
12-28-2016, 15:56
Food for thought....Would the 14-18oz penalty be more beneficial underneath or on top....a second quilt on top or second pad underneath???


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The 1/8" gossamer gear pad weighs just 2.4 ozs. I like it on top of my inflatable.

Malto
12-28-2016, 16:06
you dont need any supplementation to the xtherm

redundancy is a different consideration

one well known person here stashes extra pads ahead of time in case of failures

CCF is certainly more reliable, and a case can be made for CCF supplemented with lighter inflatable, as opposed to just single xtherm

I dont hesitate to just take xtherm for nights below 20 though.

agree with this ^

garlic08
12-28-2016, 18:27
If you know a heating contractor, try to salvage a piece of Reflectix duct insulation. Or buy a roll at Home Depot to use around the house. A full-length piece 24" wide makes a cheap, effective, light supplemental pad on snow and other cold surfaces.

saltysack
12-28-2016, 19:11
If you know a heating contractor, try to salvage a piece of Reflectix duct insulation. Or buy a roll at Home Depot to use around the house. A full-length piece 24" wide makes a cheap, effective, light supplemental pad on snow and other cold surfaces.

Assume it's the same as the thin sunshade for a car windshield? Actually snagged one last year out of neighbors trash but have never used it.....probably would also make a good frame for my frameless pack...


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garlic08
12-28-2016, 22:09
Assume it's the same as the thin sunshade for a car windshield? Actually snagged one last year out of neighbors trash but have never used it.....probably would also make a good frame for my frameless pack...

I've heard of people using sunshades, but I think Reflectix has a little more insulation, like a fraction of R. It may be lighter, too, since it's not made to support itself. But it's harder to come by for most. I happen to have a scrap from a home project and it's a permanent part of my snow camping kit.

sethd513
12-28-2016, 22:41
This weekend I will be using a half zlite sol and my xtherm in the whites. Last year I took a full zlite sol, 60" of reflextics and a self inflating thermarest at 4.9r. Talk about heavy and I sweet my butt off. I'm a little worried about not having a full ccf pas in case my xtherm fails but we will see. Having something is better then nothing.


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Dogwood
12-28-2016, 23:10
i use the NeoXlite Shortie(3.2 R, 20"x 48") and NeoXlite Womens(3.9 R, 20" x 66") as the backbone under insulation for 90% of my hikes from which I amend warmth upwards with CCF pads from 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 3/8" thickness and by using two different wts of aluminized mylar of 2uM(.08 mil) or 4uM(.16 mils). Extended hikes of regular -10 and below I switch to a Exped Winter mat ands mylar.

I can get 5.2 5.3 R Value at 15.8 oz total wt with NeoXlite Womens, 3/16 CCF that I fold not roll and store outside the pack, and a 4 uM mylar sheet. It's a wee bit bulkier than a Xterm alone but I've never layed an Xterm down on bare ground anyhow so it comes with adding wt of a ground sheet too that maybe is ignored in there wt comparisons.

I get additional R Value under insulation by spreading my paper maps, empty backpack, adding some pine straw, dry leaves, etc underneath.

Dogwood
12-28-2016, 23:13
The 4 uM aluminized mylar is like adding that reflective layer to a CCF pad which is the idea behind Relectix. The .16 mil is IMO much tougher than the lighter 2 uM aluminized mylar.

Hikingjim
12-28-2016, 23:15
Agree about redundancy.
I always use two in winter. A few years ago I had to give my blue foam to one group member who was lying on a sad deflated mat and had nothing else. Negotiated a lot of future pints for my mat... (even though i would have given it anyway)

scrabbler
12-30-2016, 18:15
And Day 10 unfolds more of the human onion as you discover other solitary parts of yourself Etc.

This is exactly how most fail the reality survival tv shows. It's not so much the elements or the abilities, it's the mental aspects of being alone out there for an extended time. It's a hard task to master. Harder to enjoy.

Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 18:36
This is exactly how most fail the reality survival tv shows. It's not so much the elements or the abilities, it's the mental aspects of being alone out there for an extended time. It's a hard task to master. Harder to enjoy.

Interesting observation. I remember when the TV show "Alone" came out a couple years ago and stared in disbelief as guys on the Longest Out challenge bailed after 2 or 3 nights. I think one guy chucked it after Night One. Bizarro. There are so many facets to this subject that it would take a couple thousand words to describe. Let's make it short---

** Remember I'm carrying all my food for the duration of a trip and so I don't have to go hungry or forage for edibles etc. Makes for better mental peace.
** I have someone waiting for me at home and this makes a huge difference in the emotional perception of Aloneness. I've spent many lonely years in the last 40 outdoors and Loneliness is at times a stark reality of Planet Earth and Deep Space . . . and of Wilderness. With nature and wilderness comes profound Loneliness. At times.

Carl7
12-30-2016, 18:56
I recently did a section for from the NOC south to Winding Stair Gap. It got down to about 8 degrees one night. I carried a full length Thermarest z light with a 2/3 length blue foam pad under it. I rolled the blue foam pad around the fold-up z light pad and strapped it to the top of my Granite Gear pack, which has nice straps for this. This is not a big deal, as no bushwacking was planned. In the summer I only carry the short z light pad. In the winter, the full lenght z light. I will say, I have a hard time with the full lenght z light in that the bottom portion near the feet wants to fold up on me. I think I am going to go back to the roll out type pad due to this. One pad can be rolled up loosely inside a pack and can place your stuff placed inside it. This will not make for the most compact pack, but it really helps give structure to a pack. I only carry two pads if it is really cold. The z light is not rated down to 8 degrees, so I also carried the blue pad. The comfort level was really good with two pads together compared to one. Yes, there is a weight penalty, but I really worked hard at cutting my winter base weight. I got down to 14.2 pounds without fuel or food but everything else. Unfortunately, my older 10 degree bag comes in at 40 oz. However, it is a great bag. I have found if your are cold from below, it is near impossible to sleep warm no matter what the bag. In the past, air pads have left me high and dry more times than I can count due to many different reasons. No matter the reason/care given, the pads did not hold air. This is bad news in the winter. Also, for whatever reason, I also tend to sleep colder on the air pads. The great thing about this conversation is that people are getting out in the winter.

rocketsocks
12-30-2016, 18:57
Loneliness is just a feeling, I'm cold, I'm tired, my hair hurts...I'm lonely. Pretty easy to concur when ya know what it is.

Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 19:10
Loneliness is just a feeling, I'm cold, I'm tired, my hair hurts...I'm lonely. Pretty easy to concur when ya know what it is.

And some people commit suicide due to terminal loneliness.

la.lindsey
12-30-2016, 19:35
So, alternative point: I sleep on a CCF most of the year, so that's what I'm most comfortable sleeping on. In the southeast, you'll get a few super cold nights, then a bunch of 30*F nights. (I know this because I'm currently out on a 600 mile section from Boiling Springs to Marion, VA). I like to carry an X-therm for the nights when I'm p sure I'm going to die, and supplement with my CCF, and then when it's 30 (and I'm pretty well acclimated so that feels normal and doesn't require gloves for camp chores) just sleep on the CCF and be more comfy.

Also always nice to have a place to sit on cold breaks for lunch. Keeps my butt dry.


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Odd Man Out
12-30-2016, 20:13
I've started carrying a thin silver coated mylar lined flexible polystyrene dollar store auto sunscreen in all seasons. It is used as a sit pad, tent awning floor, stove wind blocker, extra insulation under sleep pad for cold nights, protection for pad from rough surface, emergency backup pad if air mattress puntures, and large silvery signaling device if lost. I figure it serves enough purposes to make the cut when packing.

handlebar
12-30-2016, 21:11
If it's going to be below 10*F at night, I carry a Z-rest in addition to my Xtherm. I like the idea of redundancy. Made it through a -16*F night on the NCT in western NY with a 0*F Mtn Hdw down bag, the two pads, two silk liners, and wearing mid-weight long sleeve icebreaker top and bottom as well as my mtn hdw ghost whisperer down sweater with two hot water bottles in the bag, one by my feet, the other tucked between my thighs. Slept well.

Carl7
12-30-2016, 21:17
That is living large handlebar. There is nothing like being out on a night like that.

Dogwood
12-30-2016, 22:22
This is exactly how most fail the reality survival tv shows. It's not so much the elements or the abilities, it's the mental aspects of being alone out there for an extended time. It's a hard task to master. Harder to enjoy.

It's overall experiences far outside comfort zones for extended periods that do most in. Having to stay in one limited place for 3 wks is not my idea of surviving under many survival scenarios. It makes for easy filming though for the way some shows are produced. Sometimes, surviving entails knowing when to move or travel out of your very localized environment. In a few episodes where the image projected to viewers was in a remote location I could see nearby resorts, villages, boats, or human habitations in the back round. Really? In the Alone series I knew of the locations these people were in where supposedly they couldn't escape to human civilization or gain help was pure BS because all it took was a 4 mile bushwhack hike over a navigable ride and there was a major paved road or a fishing village. Amazes me watching survival shows how many "experts" or those with high survival ratings don't know how to purify water or obtain freshwater with a low /lower/lowest risk of parasites or walk around damaging their feet because they put nothing on them to protect them.

rocketsocks
12-31-2016, 04:18
And some people commit suicide due to terminal loneliness.point taken, though one could make an arguement that loniness lead to a mental break, kinda semantics I know, I'm unable to think of a good analogy just now.