View Full Version : Titanium vs Aluminum tent stakes
methodman
12-28-2016, 19:14
:confused:What is the advantage of titanium over aluminum stakes? Aluminum is often very close in weight to titanium. If you take similar stakes and have to beat them into hard ground, how much difference does it make before each would bend?
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 19:18
Ti shepherd hooks work. If you made them out of Al they would have to be much wider gauge wire for the same tensile strength. I use both Al and Ti stakes, depending on the soil...YMMV...
methodman
12-28-2016, 19:23
What about V shaped stakes? Also I have seen Y shaped aluminum stakes but none made from titanium. Has anyone else seen them made from Ti?
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 19:37
What about V shaped stakes? Also I have seen Y shaped aluminum stakes but none made from titanium. Has anyone else seen them made from Ti?
Yes. For some time now. Here, check it out...
https://www.vargooutdoors.com/titanium-tent-stakes.html
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 19:39
You can also get carbon fibre nails/pegs....
http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/stakes.shtml
DanTaylor
12-28-2016, 19:43
You are correct, depending on the stake, the weight of some aluminum stakes are very close to titanium. I generally us titanium shepherd hooks. The down side is they don't hold as well in loose soil. The MSR Ground Hog stakes hold better in loose soil. With the Ground Hog's you can use a shorter stake. This might be an advantage if you are hammering them end and they do tend to be less expensive. If you constantly hammer on them, I would go cheep
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 19:44
Just to be more fully inclusive on the products out there...
https://www.toaksoutdoor.com/collections/accessory
http://lawsonequipment.com/Tent-Stakes-c132/ (psssssst......these are the best bang for the buck out there...)
methodman
12-28-2016, 19:48
First, the ones at Vargo appear to be v shaped, not y shaped. My interest is mainly in shepherds hooks and V shape as far as hammering strength. I was curious as to if Ti Y shaped stakes were even produced. The only y shaped stakes I have seen were aluminum and I think they were MSR mini groundhogs.
methodman
12-28-2016, 19:55
Scarebear, thanks for the 2 internet spots. I do have to get other things as well. Both were new to me.
I never hammer Ti stakes in just push them in step on them sometimes add a rock if needed
thom
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 19:59
First, the ones at Vargo appear to be v shaped, not y shaped. My interest is mainly in shepherds hooks and V shape as far as hammering strength. I was curious as to if Ti Y shaped stakes were even produced. The only y shaped stakes I have seen were aluminum and I think they were MSR mini groundhogs.
Vargo makes the Y stake. But, it is in Al. I have no idea why, except that it would cost too much to manufacture...if Vargo won't make it out of Ti, there must be a damn good reason...
You can also get carbon fibre nails/pegs....
http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/stakes.shtml
I have these stakes and while they're very light, they are really hard to push into packed soil and I get very nervous when I try to step on one. I'm still debating whether they will be coming along in March...
Good luck w the carbon fiber stakes I don't trust them .
thom
methodman
12-28-2016, 20:18
I stand corrected. I did not realize that Vargo had a y shaped stake . It is also cheaper than msr.
Odd Man Out
12-28-2016, 20:21
Aluminum is less dense than titamium so titanium objects are heavier than aluminum objects of the same size. The weight savings for Ti gear (such as pots) comes from the ability ti make them much thinner due Ti's greater strength. But it seems to me that the holding ability is going to be proprtional to its size (a fatter tent peg will hold better than a thin one). So it makes sense to make tent pegs out of the least dense material (Al), so you get the greatest holding power (size) per gram. I've been using Al gutter spikes with good luck.
AfterParty
12-28-2016, 20:22
I was intrigued too but the no pounding thing is a killer for me. I am really thinking nails for guttering might be for me strong and cheap. Those Ti ones look nice too just don't know how strong they are and I know I can be hard on stakes.
methodman
12-28-2016, 20:28
I like the idea of the gutter spikes. Sounds as if they would be superior to the shepherds hooks. Have you ever weighed one to see how many grams they are?
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 20:30
On the AT, Ti shepherd's hooks are all I need...
YMMV!
methodman
12-28-2016, 20:41
Even in snow or mud?
methodman
12-28-2016, 20:42
What does YMMV stand for?
If you aren't trying to save weight . Anything works . Save your money for the trail.
Thom
What does YMMV stand for?
Your millage may very
methodman
12-28-2016, 20:49
Well, at my age , weight savings is important, but so is all equipment being very dependable.
From what I read there is a problem manufacturing a Y stake in Titanium because of the soldering involved.
I have similar V Ti stakes to the Vargo ones, they feel stronger than similar sized Al versions but not as strong as Al Y stakes.
Do you know your pack base weight?
methodman
12-28-2016, 20:55
Don't have everything yet but I think between 11# and 13#.
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 20:58
From what I read there is a problem manufacturing a Y stake in Titanium because of the soldering involved.
I have similar V Ti stakes to the Vargo ones, they feel stronger than similar sized Al versions but not as strong as Al Y stakes.
I believe the y-stakes are actually extruded aluminum. And, therein lies the problem. Extruding titanium in a y shape....hell...extruding titanium PERIOD is a rather mammoth undertaking....something like 2000 TONS of pressure at some incredibly high temp...only for missiles, spacecraft, etc...
methodman
12-28-2016, 21:04
For me , they must work in all conditions since I plan to start AT March 1,2019 and take about 6months to finish.
That's very good . You don't save very much weight on tent stakes. It's the big four pack, shelter , sleep bag and seep pad can save lots weight.
Thom
cmoulder
12-28-2016, 21:13
Get some of each and test them. Plenty of time for training and shake-down cruises with 2.17 years until the start date. ;)
I have a Zpacks Duplex and use Ground Hogs for the ridge line and the Lawson's Ti shepherd hooks, linked above (best Ti shepherd hooks ever) for the rest.
methodman
12-28-2016, 21:18
That sounds pretty good.
methodman
12-28-2016, 21:23
Are the shepherd hooks you use the 6.5" or the 8.5"?
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 21:58
I use the 6.5's but I could see the purpose in the 8.5's...
T.S.Kobzol
12-28-2016, 22:03
I love titanium shepherd hooks but I think it is due to my geographical location in New england with hard and rocky soil. The thinness is an asset as I can lean on them and they slide into the hard ground often finding a way between rocks underground.
Odd Man Out
12-28-2016, 22:10
I like the idea of the gutter spikes. Sounds as if they would be superior to the shepherds hooks. Have you ever weighed one to see how many grams they are?
I did one, but forgot. I believe they were a few grams heavier than a Ti hook stake, but much fatter. Unlike a Easton peg, they are one piece so the had can't fall off. On downside is they can be hard to pull sometimes as there is not much to grab hold of. I've heard of people drilling a hold through the top and looping a short piece of cord through to give something to grab hold of.
Starchild
12-28-2016, 22:29
For me , they must work in all conditions since I plan to start AT March 1,2019 and take about 6months to finish.
Iusedthem
I used them (shepherd's hooks) for the entire AT. Yes they can be used, sometimes you need to help it by placing a rock over one or so, but it is never a problem.
Depending on your tent you may want to have 1 or 2 Y's with you to hold the critical points.
methodman
12-28-2016, 23:00
That sounds like an excellent idea. I will certainly try that first. Thank you.
swisscross
12-28-2016, 23:12
Mixture of stakes is your best bet.
A few easton nails, some ti hooks (I like dutch), a ti nail just because, a ground hog (found).
Have yet to to find soil that few did not hold.
Oranges to oranges comparison Ti is stronger and light than Al
Only as light (or lighter) if the walls are thinner, otherwise at exactly the same size aluminium is lighter.
ScareBear
12-28-2016, 23:53
Only as light (or lighter) if the walls are thinner, otherwise at exactly the same size aluminium is lighter.
And at the same size when aluminium is lighter, titanium is stronger...
Odd Man Out
12-29-2016, 11:27
The strength of the tent peg material is what will keep it from bending or breaking. But its strength will not improve its holding power. That will be more a function of its dimensions.
Only as light (or lighter) if the walls are thinner, otherwise at exactly the same size aluminium is lighter.
You are right. Took me a minute but I was incorrectly perceiving somethings. TU for the correction. :p :)
colorado_rob
12-29-2016, 12:22
Ti is something like 50% heavier than Aluminium (I love the way the Brits pronounce this...), but roughly twice as strong, so Ti stakes can be overall lighter for the same strength, though the AL ones, being thicker (for the same strength), would have that slightly more holding power... always tradeoffs...
I've used Ti "Shepherd hook" stakes for maybe 8 years now, always worked for me. Every once in a while I'll back up a particular holding with a flat rock on top of the line up against the stake. If I were camping in a primarily sandy soil area, I'd probably carry AL stakes with a Y shape, I have some never used, came with various tents.
DuneElliot
12-29-2016, 13:28
If you are interested in Ti Y-shaped tent stakes check out Dutchware: http://www.dutchwaregear.com/stoves-and-camping-stuff/stakes/
I haven't tried them yet, but anything that comes from Dutch is generally good quality stuff
ScareBear
12-29-2016, 13:34
If you are interested in Ti Y-shaped tent stakes check out Dutchware: http://www.dutchwaregear.com/stoves-and-camping-stuff/stakes/
I haven't tried them yet, but anything that comes from Dutch is generally good quality stuff
That is a Vargo ALUMINUM Y stake. The V stake on that page is also a Vargo product, but in Ti. AFAIK, there is no Y shaped Ti tent stake...
methodman
12-29-2016, 14:09
It doesn't say it is Ti, it says aluminum.
DuneElliot
12-29-2016, 14:40
Oops, I was thinking they were Y-shaped. The picture was an optical illusion.
The strength of the tent peg material is what will keep it from bending or breaking. But its strength will not improve its holding power. That will be more a function of its dimensions.
And to a large degree: design.
It's why winter pegs look like they do, and why some manufacturers modify the standard cylindrical design. Of course, then comes the issue of driving them in, or removing them...often times a difficult task, along with the increased weight consideration.
I've had the same set of pegs for a couple decades: the old square MSR needle ones, recently re-released and sometimes for sale for under a buck apiece. Roughly 9 grams each and virtually unbendable, even at home in the desert, where the ground isn't always so compliant.
37665
Back to our regularly-scheduled programming...
I bought titanium stakes with at Traildays with a zpacks duplex. They didn't even make it a night. They bent so easily in rocky soil when pushing them in with my foot. Maybe I was doing something wrong? Anyway, I sent them home with my Big Agnes tent and kept the j-stakes from the B.A. They were excellent and I will never switch. The J-stakes are so strong that I could hammer them with a rock and did several times on my thru. Never bent at all and never let me down. I guess it depends on the terrain that you are camping on but if you hit a rock with a titanium stake they will bend. My opinion of titanium stakes is much worse than I'm letting on here...don't ask my real thoughts!
I find that a thin ti skewer stake is easier to slip (not pound) into spaces and cracks among the rocks rather than a thicker aluminum stake.
"I bought titanium stakes with at Traildays with a zpacks duplex. They didn't even make it a night."
I have had Ti V stakes that I can bend with my hands with little effort and I do have Ti stakes (look almost the same...) that I can't.
So it has to do with the exact design and wall thickness.
BTW, same thing with Ti nail stakes.
ScareBear
12-29-2016, 16:52
My Lawson Ti skewers work just fine on the AT. I've only bent a single Mountainsmith Al v stake on top of Standing Indian. Never had to use anything more than the sole of my boot to push them in. I had to Dremel off the sharp edges on the Mountainsmiths. Same with the MSR's. No issue with the Shepherd Hook's. No abrasion. Especially if they are coated. This makes a difference when you get into the smaller diameter guy lines...of course, YMMV...
MuddyWaters
12-29-2016, 18:13
I find that a thin ti skewer stake is easier to slip (not pound) into spaces and cracks among the rocks rather than a thicker aluminum stake.
+
exactly
and if it not hold tight you put a big rock on it and call it a day.
AfterParty
12-29-2016, 18:13
Hey on a side note ti nails can be used for shish kabobs over a fire.
SWODaddy
12-29-2016, 20:09
Yes. For some time now. Here, check it out...
https://www.vargooutdoors.com/titanium-tent-stakes.html
I bought a set of the ascent "V" stakes. They're too fragile for any rocky soil IMO.
garlic08
12-29-2016, 21:06
I carry both.
Titanium is definitely my first choice. The way I pitch and the conditions I often see, aluminum doesn't work very well. I've actually hammered my Ti shepherd's crooks into frangible rock and have never broken one, nor bent one beyond easy field repair. I've never noticed the thinner diameter being a problem.
My shelter needs a minimum of four stakes. I carry four titanium for the critical points. I carry a few extra aluminum for optional guys and for storms, or to double them up in weak soil/sand.
MtDoraDave
01-05-2017, 08:28
I used the hollow aluminum (easton?) stakes that came with my tarptent for 2 years before I had one fail. Using the heel of my HAND, I haven't bent any yet. The one I bent last time out, I pushed in with my foot... and it may have gotten stepped on in the night, because I don't recall it being bent after pushing it in with my foot - in fact, it didn't go all the way in... I figured I wouldn't force it because it was hitting a root or a rock.
That same night, I found a Ti Shepard hook stake...
In loose sandy soil, the 6" easton (hollow) aluminum stakes have come loose during a windy night and almost come out. In other soils, they stay put and come out with a bit of wiggling to loosen them up. I have had the tops come off a few of them, which I later JB welded back on.
rocketsocks
01-05-2017, 08:49
An we talk about snow steaks for a minute, what do you use? And I'm not talkin' about your favorite cuts swimming in a small visqueen lined depressum in da snow marinating in your favorite spice & swill...although that do sound good
cmoulder
01-05-2017, 09:08
Snow stakes... use found wood sticks about 8"-12" long and bury them sideways about 6" deep. Stomp the snow down to compact it and give it some time to consolidate, anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour, depending upon the quality of the snow. After a couple of hours you couldn't pull them out with a fully loaded garbage truck, which is why it's best to tie them to the stick with a good slip knot (mooring hitch (http://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/mooring-hitch) in photo below) and leave a long tail of cord sticking out so you can just yank it and be on your way next morning.
I haven't carried specialized snow stakes since about 1994.
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Gambit McCrae
01-05-2017, 09:49
I just replaced my stakes with these and they are awesome, so sharp they pierced right thru the frozen ground and you can see them very well for packing up
37773
I have Ti pegs, Ti nails, Ti shepards hooks, gutter spikes, alum. shepards hooks but I always go to the 6" Easton Aluminum pegs.
I found any type of shepards hook will turn and release the guideline. Gutter spikes bend too easy and Ti nails are too thin to hold much.
The only negatives I've found with the Easton pegs is that a few have (2 over several years) had the head pop off. You can still use the peg and I've had good success with repairing using a drop of epoxy. They also will not take heavy pounding into rocky soil but that hasn't been a problem with a little care.
During my thru hike I tented every night on the trail except in the Smokys and when I finished I still had the same 6 Easton pegs I started with.
My second choice would Ti V shaped pegs.
G-FOURce
01-05-2017, 10:11
Just ordered these Ti shepherd's hook stakes from Lawson Equipment (their policy of no shipping costs on any order was a big plus):
http://lawsonequipment.com/Tent-Stakes/Titanium-Tent-Stake-6-5-p883.html
(http://lawsonequipment.com/Tent-Stakes/Titanium-Tent-Stake-6-5-p883.html)
They're due to arrive this week, so I can't say anything positive or negative about them, and I'll try to remember to post up an initial remark when they arrive.
I do have experience with the Easton aluminum stakes and right now that is what I am using for all of my backpacking shelters. I am in the upstate of SC near the NC border and these stakes work very well for our area (we backpack in the Pisgah National Forest, the Cherokee National Forest, and the Great Smoky Mountains National Park). I have only bent one and that as user error as I was hardheaded and continued to pound on it when it had hit a rock beneath the soil. Duh. Otherwise, these have proven to be rock solid and hold very well.
NOTE: If you opt for the Easton stakes, my experience has been that you should only buy the ones that do not have the silver-colored heads with flares at both the top and bottom. I have both types and those are the only ones where I have had the heads pop off the stake shaft. I would recommend buying only the ones with the colored heads where only top is flared as I have never had the head pop off on one of those. See pics attached for the differences b/w the two.
Interesting that there are two types. With my tent, which gets used every month camping with the Scouts, I have the two flared Easton pegs. These are the ones I carried on my 2011 thru. Also I notice that I have a dozen single flared ones that came with a couple of Tarptent Contrails that I bought for the Scouts to take to Philmont. I replaced those with Groundhog stakes due tot he rocky, hard ground there.
I haven't used the single flair ones and did have two of the double flair ones loose their heads.
G-FOURce
01-05-2017, 12:49
Interesting that there are two types. With my tent, which gets used every month camping with the Scouts, I have the two flared Easton pegs. These are the ones I carried on my 2011 thru. Also I notice that I have a dozen single flared ones that came with a couple of Tarptent Contrails that I bought for the Scouts to take to Philmont. I replaced those with Groundhog stakes due tot he rocky, hard ground there.
I haven't used the single flair ones and [I] did have two of the double flair ones loose their heads.
+1 for staying away from the stakes with the double-flared heads
rocketsocks
01-05-2017, 14:23
Snow stakes... use found wood sticks about 8"-12" long and bury them sideways about 6" deep. Stomp the snow down to compact it and give it some time to consolidate, anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour, depending upon the quality of the snow. After a couple of hours you couldn't pull them out with a fully loaded garbage truck, which is why it's best to tie them to the stick with a good slip knot (mooring hitch (http://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/mooring-hitch) in photo below) and leave a long tail of cord sticking out so you can just yank it and be on your way next morning.
I haven't carried specialized snow stakes since about 1994.
37770 37771 37772 beautiful, thanks, never seen that knot before.
+1 for staying away from the stakes with the double-flared heads
Apparently people all over the world have problems with the Easton stakes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM7KHrWYOm0
My hammock system requires 6 stakes. I hiked the AT with: 2 mini-ground hogs, 1 full size ground hog, and 3 shepherd hooks. This was a light weight and versatile solution. I always had what was needed. On the AT, I never required a fourth shepherd's hook or a second full-size ground hog. Many times, however, I "needed" at least one or the other.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
cmoulder
01-06-2017, 19:53
I ordered some of these (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JYUBHVW/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) today just to see how they compare to Ground Hogs. Right away it seems they will need some reflective pull cords. But for a buck apiece shipped they're worth a look.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61mu2yUH3WL._SL1001_.jpg
G-FOURce
01-11-2017, 17:34
Just ordered these Ti shepherd's hook stakes from Lawson Equipment (their policy of no shipping costs on any order was a big plus):
http://lawsonequipment.com/Tent-Stakes/Titanium-Tent-Stake-6-5-p883.html
(http://lawsonequipment.com/Tent-Stakes/Titanium-Tent-Stake-6-5-p883.html)
They're due to arrive this week, so I can't say anything positive or negative about them, and I'll try to remember to post up an initial remark when they arrive.
The Lawson's Ti stakes arrived today. They are light, but they bend VERY easily. I'll still give them a try because I am hoping they'll surprise me, but as of this moment I couldn't endorse them given how much flex they have.
cmoulder
01-11-2017, 18:53
but they bend VERY easily
Maybe by bending them along their length by hand, but that isn't how they're supposed to be used... If you push them into the ground and/or tap them judiciously with a rock (which I've done many times) they are quite strong and durable, as Ti skewers go. ....compare them to other popular Ti skewers and their advantage becomes obvious. They have a very specific purpose and there is a bit of a learning curve as to their proper use... not meant to be pounded into submission.:sun
cmoulder
01-11-2017, 19:16
Which reminds me, yesterday I received the "Northern Brothers" stakes I linked to above and will be able to test them soon. Like the MSR Groundhogs they are made of extruded aluminum, but without the curve in the blades that the Groundhogs have. From an engineering standpoint one could perhaps argue that the curved blades give the Groundhogs a bit more longitudinal rigidity, although in real life it might not matter a whit. The weight of the stakes (with pull cords) is identical, 14.3 grams. Groundhogs are about 7.5" long, Northern Bros about 7.1" I'm going to be using them during the upcoming weekend and will know more later.
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Secondmouse
01-11-2017, 22:14
For me , they must work in all conditions since I plan to start AT March 1,2019 and take about 6months to finish.
if it's for a thru, you would probably end with a different set than you started with. I just replace whatever I lose wit what's available or what someone's willing to loan/trade/part with.
it's not a law that you have to take all one kind of stake. I carry a mix of Easton 8" Nano Spikes and no-name Groundhog'ish y-stakes...
MuddyWaters
01-11-2017, 22:24
it's not a law that you have to take all one kind of stake. I carry a mix of Easton 8" Nano Spikes and no-name Groundhog'ish y-stakes...
its not a law you have to take stakes at all
stakes are a ...convenience...
rocks work just dandy
attach a couple feet of mason line to each guyout
wrap it around a big rock, 25 lbs or more
set the rock in place
voila
better than a stake
doesnt work well where there are no rocks,
Secondmouse
01-11-2017, 23:02
its not a law you have to take stakes at all
stakes are a ...convenience...
rocks work just dandy
attach a couple feet of mason line to each guyout
wrap it around a big rock, 25 lbs or more
set the rock in place
voila
better than a stake
doesnt work well where there are no rocks,
yep, using rocks works in rocky soil, tying directly to bushes, trees, logs works, anchors work in snow or sand, and sticks sharpened at the site and discarded the next day lets you keep your pack weight down but the OP is asking about what kind of stakes, not alternative methods.
it's just that some people often don't think out of the box about gear. tent stakes come in sets, usually 6 at a time but what happens when they lose or break some? you can mix types and sizes of stakes and/or methods.
I hate mason line for guy lines...
eblanche
01-13-2017, 08:01
I've had good luck with the standard DAC v pegs that I have purchased from several sources. I supplement the non-critical guylines with lawson ti shepards. When I break/lose my stakes I will replace again with dac v stakes or MSR groundhogs (full length).
PS. Despite easily bending, I pound my lawson ti shpeards with rocks quite often and I find that if you guide them correctly, they do not bend. Being aware of the pressure you use and the ground (are you trying to crack through hard granite under the dirt???) helps.