View Full Version : "Massachusetts hiker, 26, found dead after Christmas Eve hike in White Mountains"
somers515
12-29-2016, 06:14
My apologies if this has already been posted. I didn't see it. Tragic. Appears to be hypothermia.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/12/27/massachusetts-hiker-found-dead-after-christmas-eve-hike-white-mountains/GpSjIDMoAP09hVOMlcbWlO/story.html?p1=Article_Trending_Most_Viewed
fiddlehead
12-29-2016, 07:30
Looks like he died doing what he likes best.
On Christmas day yet
.
RIP.
That's gotta be tough on the family...sad, and so easily preventable.
peakbagger
12-29-2016, 07:59
Its a sad case, here is some background for folks who may not be familiar with the area especially in winter.
The hike he was doing was about as remote as a hiker can get in the White Mountain National Forest. He appears to have been doing an "out and back" to Bondcliff, Bond and West Bond (his turn around point). AT hikers may be familiar with Guyot Shelter, West Bond is short hike from Guyot Shelter and is popular spot to go after a day of hiking to watch the sunset. Its 22 miles round trip but technically not that difficult as much of the hike is via an old railroad bed with most of the elevation gained via a combination of a older railroad spur and then a series of logging paths cut into the side of Bondcliff. Between Bond and Bondcliff there is 3/4 of a mile exposed above treeline ridge with a westerly exposure with the trail on or near the top of the ridge. This stretch is featureless and in marginal weather its quite difficult to follow and stay on the trail. The topography in the area makes for very unpredictable wind direction. West Bond is upwind of the Bondcliff/Bond ridge and that means the wind direction can rapidly change minute to minute which can really slow things down. The trail runs for couple of tenths immediately along the cliffs that give Bondcliff its name.
Hikers in the area work on the 4000 footer list. It easy to start "the 48" and those who complete the list get patch and certificate. As a hiker finishes the first list, they can graduate to the winter list which is the same list except the summits need to be in winter. This makes things far more challenging but is still quite popular. Due to the amount of weight required for winter camping, many folks now elect to do these as long dayhikes. The variations on the list continue going to 4 season list (all 48 in all four seasons of the year) and then the grid (every 48 summit every month of the year). In the past when there was less winter traffic hikers would do multiday backpacks or basecamping to grab the more remote summits in winter but with increased usage in the winter many folks (including myself) elect to do these as long dayhikes as the extra weight of winter camping gear can really slow a hiker down. Many folks do carry some emergency gear but the plan is hopefully pick the weather and conditions and be out after dark. This is trade off, bring too much gear like a winter tent and winter sleeping bag and that can slow a day hiker way down. In good winter conditions this can be an 8 to 12 hour hike and is quite spectacular, in bad conditions it can take far longer and it can take some hikers a few attempts to get these peaks.
One of the "tricks" of getting the list completed is to try to get the long hikes in before the winter really moves in (as I write this the forecast is for 16 to 20" of snow in the next 36 hours) Folks will try to get in the longer more difficult hikes like this one before the snow gets deep and the weather gets real cold early in official winter. Last year was a particularly warm mild winter in NH so some folks got spoiled by a unusual winter and use that to plan the next winter. Unfortunately this winter is shaping up to be bit more normal, the snow pack in the mountains was not that deep but it was unconsolidated, usually a good crust develops and travel can be faster than in the summer as the underlying rocks are covered over. This was not in place so going was probably slower. The regional forecasts tends be dangerous for winter hikers as they underestimate the potential conditions in the whites at elevation. The observatory on Mt Washington has a specific set of higher summit forecasts but the extra 2000 feet of vertical between the 4 K summits and the summit of Mt Washington makes that forecast quite conservative. A weather front was forecast to come through clearing out the weather that evening, it would bring clear weather Christmas Eve night and into Christmas day but along with the clearing comes high winds and cold temps. This is a deadly combination.
Most winter hikers are exerting themselves so they are hiking with minimal gear on, usually a polypro or merino baselayer with wind pants and a wind shell, hat and gloves. There is an attempt at moisture management but its easy to get damp. This works as long as the hiker is moving, but stop for any period of time and the hiker cools down rapidly. In windy conditions a hiker can go from warm to freezing in a couple of minutes, in this situation hypothermia can kick in. Unfortunately the first thing that is impacted by hypothermia is clear thinking quickly followed by loss of blood flow to the extremities along with uncontrollable shivers. Even if a solo hiker realizes they are in peril, in windy conditions the loss of dexterity and clear thinking can mean even it they have the gear that they cant get it on quick enough. The rescuers noted that the deceased had his wind shell on "backwards". I speculate they meant inside out and that meant that with a typical zipper the jacket could not be zipped. I personally have been caught in conditions where I have gone from warm to cold and shivering in less than 5 minutes. It was major challenge to even get my pack open as the standard click lock buckles need dexterity to open. Even when I get the pack open I have all my gear in individual ziplock bags and in windy conditions even picking the right bag and getting it out of the pack is challenge. Even opening the ziplock bag is a challenge, I have had to rip a ziplock bag open with my teeth in the past as getting the bag open requires dexterity. With a partner or partners, they can keep an eye on each other and help those who need to put on more gear but solo hikers don't have that option. Some folks claim that "group think" can lead groups to get in more trouble but that normally only happens to less experienced groups.
I expect for many reading this, the big question is why do we do it given the potential risks? The reason for me and many winter hikers is that on a good day with the right conditions there is nothing that can beat it. On a clear winter day, visibilities frequently are in excess of 100 miles. I routinely can spot Mt Abraham and Saddleback to the east and the entire chain of the Green Mountains in VT to the west, these long views happen rarely in the summer. The snow covers the rocks and the views open up as the leaves are down. The undergrowth tends to get locked in with snow so the woods are lot more open. Once the snow pack is established the trails turn into "sidewalks" and frequently despite 4 to 6 feet of snowpack the trailbed will consolidate and we can "bareboot" with microspikes at a faster overall pace than summer. If the conditions are right the trails turn into a "bobsled chute" and on occasion the trip down the mountain can turn into a very fast event. No bugs is another big plus.
ScareBear
12-29-2016, 08:22
"Many folks do carry some emergency gear but the plan is hopefully pick the weather and conditions and be out after dark. "
In the Whites, in late December, I'd stay away from any plan that involves the word "hopefully". The temps were not that brutal, but the wind and rain was. Like you said, by the time he got wet in the wind, it was too late to even put the jacket on correctly. And, a SPOT won't necessarily save you in the Whites, unless you've got some shelter involved. Here's a tragic tale of somebody who had all the experience and probably the correct gear, but when things go wrong, ****e happens exponentially....while a SPOT is nice and may save your life, if you treat it like I do( the same way I treat my avy beacon) you will be better prepared and less reliant upon it to give you a false sense of security. Oh, how do I treat it? As a body locator so I don't become bear bait in the Spring...just sayin...by the time you really need either, you are screwed.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/02/21/the-young-woman-and-mountain/SEBPucaGpA1Fun4R5uoj7K/story.html
It reminds me of Kate Maristrova in some respects. Fairly experienced hiker who ran into conditions they were not prepared for, hiking solo in the White Mountains in Winter.
I just recently read the book "Not Without Peril", which recounts several stories of deaths in the Whites. Your post aligns with the book very well.
cmoulder
12-29-2016, 12:28
With very few exceptions, most tragedies in the Whites involve people who pressed on in conditions that dictated retreat.
I've done a fair amount of winter stuff in the Whites and I've always felt that the most important thing to know is when it's time to go home.
37663
A couple of years ago, ascending up through Lion Head with winds increasing to 80mph... got within 0.3 mi of Washington summit and turned around.
SawnieRobertson
12-29-2016, 13:38
[QUOTE=cmoulder;2114808]With very few exceptions, most tragedies in the Whites involve people who pressed on in conditions that dictated retreat.
I've done a fair amount of winter stuff in the Whites and I've always felt that the most important thing to know is when it's time to go home.
37663
Well said. . . anywhere, any condition. Of course, he did experience much beauty before the point when things began getting too dicey. Sometimes, as with you, CMOULDER, we will see even more beauty and accept more auspicious challenges by choosing to accept "when it is time to go home."
Tipi Walter
12-29-2016, 14:02
It reminds me of Kate Maristrova in some respects. Fairly experienced hiker who ran into conditions they were not prepared for, hiking solo in the White Mountains in Winter.
It's Kate Matrosova.
This is yet another sad story in a long line of mishaps involving Dayhikers. Let me repeat: Dayhikers. Kate was a dayhiker and perished in terrible conditions. Remember David Decareaux and his two sons who died of hypothermia in the Ozarks several years ago? They too were dayhikers.
My point? Dayhikers just don't hike with enough gear to get them thru bad conditions. Most refuse to carry a sleeping bag and a tent or a decent tarp with stakes and good rain gear and ample extra clothing. Why is this?? Why is this, especially in winter??????????????????????????????
I suspect the mistake that was made was waiting too long to put layers back on. I remember a day walking in a tshirt and being comfortable and all of the sudden I came around a corner and the wind just hit me. I continued walking for just a few more minutes before stopping and putting on every piece of clothing I had with me. It was too late. I kept walking, but I didn't feel warm again for HOURS. Now I'm not afraid to stop and change out layers every 5 or 10 minutes if necessary. To me the most dangerous combination is wind, water and cold.
peakbagger
12-29-2016, 16:24
I don't buy the broad brush indictment of winter dayhikers. There is a very large and growing number of winter hikers and the vast majority are dayhikers, many of the folks who have done the grid (12 x48 summits year round) are experienced day hikers. The Grid is a very recent occurrence the first recorded finisher was 1989 and I attribute it mostly due to the switch over to long winter dayhikes. Most use a far simpler solution, look at the weather forecast before they head out and pick their days. It took me three attempts to climb Mt Adams in the winter and I ended up doing it solo as a day hike by picking the right day. Prior to the popularity of winter day hikes, the Bonds would usually be done as an overnight which meant stringing together two good days in the winter. Folks did it, but just as many got in trouble with overnight gear as dayhikers do. A far bigger issue is the Press on Regardless mentality. It happens several times every winter where folks from outside the area have a trip planned in advance and head up here only to find that the forecast has degraded, rather then turn around they elect to press on hoping that the forecast was wrong. They frequently rationalize that if it gets worse they will turn around. On rare occasions its gets worse and turning around isn't an option.
Although there are some comparisons between this hiker and Kate M, Kate M went out in far worse forecast conditions, its questionable if she would have been capable of carrying enough gear to survive and given the limited evidence, Kate M was probably not thinking clearly many hours earlier. The order of magnitude risks were far higher with Kate then this hiker.
The S&R folks plan to go out in the worst conditions and do carry extra gear for survival, here is video of what they carry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qiHF-pTKmU.
rocketsocks
12-29-2016, 16:50
It's Kate Matrosova.
This is yet another sad story in a long line of mishaps involving Dayhikers. Let me repeat: Dayhikers. Kate was a dayhiker and perished in terrible conditions. Remember David Decareaux and his two sons who died of hypothermia in the Ozarks several years ago? They too were dayhikers.
My point? Dayhikers just don't hike with enough gear to get them thru bad conditions. Most refuse to carry a sleeping bag and a tent or a decent tarp with stakes and good rain gear and ample extra clothing. Why is this?? Why is this, especially in winter??????????????????????????????ooh ooh I know this one. Because the conventional wisdom (I use that term not only loosely but sarcastically) is that if it's heavy it isn't nessasary vs being dynamic and bringing the right tools for the task at hand. Looking at peak angers video of the search and rescue pack is pretty much a bare minimum but for a few specialty items.
rocketsocks
12-29-2016, 16:51
I don't buy the broad brush indictment of winter dayhikers. There is a very large and growing number of winter hikers and the vast majority are dayhikers, many of the folks who have done the grid (12 x48 summits year round) are experienced day hikers. The Grid is a very recent occurrence the first recorded finisher was 1989 and I attribute it mostly due to the switch over to long winter dayhikes. Most use a far simpler solution, look at the weather forecast before they head out and pick their days. It took me three attempts to climb Mt Adams in the winter and I ended up doing it solo as a day hike by picking the right day. Prior to the popularity of winter day hikes, the Bonds would usually be done as an overnight which meant stringing together two good days in the winter. Folks did it, but just as many got in trouble with overnight gear as dayhikers do. A far bigger issue is the Press on Regardless mentality. It happens several times every winter where folks from outside the area have a trip planned in advance and head up here only to find that the forecast has degraded, rather then turn around they elect to press on hoping that the forecast was wrong. They frequently rationalize that if it gets worse they will turn around. On rare occasions its gets worse and turning around isn't an option.
Although there are some comparisons between this hiker and Kate M, Kate M went out in far worse forecast conditions, its questionable if she would have been capable of carrying enough gear to survive and given the limited evidence, Kate M was probably not thinking clearly many hours earlier. The order of magnitude risks were far higher with Kate then this hiker.
The S&R folks plan to go out in the worst conditions and do carry extra gear for survival, here is video of what they carry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qiHF-pTKmU.thanks for the video
ScareBear
12-29-2016, 17:11
55lbs!!!!! HOLY SMOKES!!!! That's dry!!! Fill up those Nalgene's and that thermos for a nice 62 pound pack. OMG! And, no tent. Just a bivvy sack. And no real climbing gear, other than crampons and an ice axe. No helmet. No harness. No ascenders. No belay gear. No space blankets. Very interesting. They know what they need, I suppose...
I have a few basic rules regarding peakbagging or any back-country hiking in winter:
#1: only hike with a partner.
#2: set a turn-around time and stick to it. If we didn't bag the summit, so be it.
#3: carry some basic life-support gear, like headlamp, sleeping bag, spare hat, gloves, etc.
#4: my wife knows which trail I'm on, expects a call from me as soon as we're off the trail and have signal
Slo-go'en
12-29-2016, 17:33
It should be pretty busy this weekend after this Nor'easter passes through. A big storm always brings them out. Already half a dozen cars at the trial head for Lowes path, the direct route to the RMC Gray Knob cabin, at least 4 headed up today as the storm started. With New Years Eve a Saturday, I imagine the cabin will be packed this weekend. I'm tempted to head up myself, but I'll probably wait until they all get the trail packed down and go up Sunday...
colorado_rob
12-29-2016, 17:48
I don't buy the broad brush indictment of winter dayhikers. There is a very large and growing number of winter hikers and the vast majority are dayhikers, many of the folks who have done the grid (12 x48 summits year round) are experienced day hikers. The Grid is a very recent occurrence the first recorded finisher was 1989...It was nice to see your wise words (here and response 4 below) PB, I get it, and I get why these tragic things happen because my wife and I and many of our friends do exactly this kind of stuff, and yeah, I had one very close call with hypothermia and yet, I still get out there and get on it and hang it out and sure, not many get it, witness most of these responses,as usual on these tragic events. But that's fine.
Funny you mention "the grid", here I thought WE out here "invented" this concept for our 58 (52? 55?) Colorado 14ers. Just this morning, honest to doG, I found out it was you nut-bars in NH that came up with the concept! One guy in CO (Ken Nolan, a god) is about 85% complete with the 14er grid, no one else has come close. In fact, the 14ers have only been completed in winter (let alone three times in the winter!) by 8 hardy souls. I personally have a long, long way to go for my goal of the "seasonal grid", which I'm sure you know of. I have, at least, done all the 14ers (in fact, the high 100) twice. Big deal. Yawn.
Tipi Walter
12-29-2016, 17:49
A far bigger issue is the Press on Regardless mentality.
Logically the Press On Regardless mindset is much more of a Dayhiker's dilemma as, well, they must get out at all costs without incurring an overnighter. No dayhiker I know of wants to pull a winter overnighter no matter what's inside their daypack. So they press on regardless.
A backpacker with winter gear on the other hand can Press On and Camp, there is no "regardless". "Regardless" means going out with insufficient gear no matter your planned hike.
Plus, I'd like to see some facts in the Whites of Dayhiker rescues vs Backpacker rescues. You say both are equal---as in---just as many dayhikers have to be rescued (or bodies recovered) as backpackers. Any numbers to back this up?
When things get squirrelly or unpredictable or dangerous or too cold or too windy backpackers have the option of stopping where they stand, digging out a tent platform, setting up camp and hunkering in for a week until conditions improve. Whereas a backpacker might have several boring days inside a tent, a dayhiker in extreme conditions is having a lifetime's epic event.
Remember, the boys who climbed Denali in the winter of 1967 spent 5 or 6 weeks in conditions worse than the Whites and they had enough gear and experience to survive (except in the beginning when one of their members fell into a crevasse). You could say the group is what kept all of them alive, and yet individuals still had to carry the right gear and survive on an individual basis.
One Half
12-29-2016, 19:17
Wow. I never have dayhiked in the Whites without being prepared to spend a night in case I got in trouble.
Plus, I'd like to see some facts in the Whites of Dayhiker rescues vs Backpacker rescues. You say both are equal---as in---just as many dayhikers have to be rescued (or bodies recovered) as backpackers. Any numbers to back this up?
That would be a tall order. Year round, but especially in winter, day hikers and peak baggers outnumber backpackers by ten to one.
And I'd wager, the number of hikers in either group who could hunker down and wait out a five day storm is near-zero. The more prudent course would be get the the **** off the mountain, or not go in the first place.
Tipi Walter
12-29-2016, 19:29
Wow. I never have dayhiked in the Whites without being prepared to spend a night in case I got in trouble.
This is my point all along. Frustrated that hikers still go out without knowing this.
That would be a tall order. Year round, but especially in winter, day hikers and peak baggers outnumber backpackers by ten to one.
And I'd wager, the number of hikers in either group who could hunker down and wait out a five day storm is near-zero. The more prudent course would be get the the **** off the mountain, or not go in the first place.
Reminds me of the story of Steven Frazier who went into Yosemite for a weekend backpacking trip and hiked in 20 miles and set up camp. A surprise two foot snowstorm hit whereby the trails disappeared and he couldn't get out. What did he do? He hunkered in and made two days worth of food last twelve until concerned family members initiated rescue efforts. So your near-zero chance may or may not be correct.
peakbagger
12-29-2016, 20:20
Hard to come up with statistics on accidents in the whites as there are far too many access points and no permitting system. Fish and Game who manages rescues in the whites doesn't keep any publically available statistics. I guess it comes down to the opinion of a local who lives year round in the whites compared to someone who apparently lives and does long expeditions in the southeast. Different terrain and different conditions lead to different decisions.
I drive by major hiking parking lots frequently. With the exception of parking lots that service year round AMC huts (CarterNotch, Zealand Hut and Lonesome Lake) and the RMC camps (Gray Knob, Crag Camp and the Perch) I see very few vehicles parked overnight in the winter. The lots start filling up before dark and clear out a couple of hours after dark. Having spent a few late evenings coming out to these lots they are pretty lonely places at night. If I had to guess, the ratio of winter dayhikers to overnighters, excluding the huts and camps is at least 100 to 1. It comes down to there are thousands of folks potentially climbing in the whites on a nice winter weekend and very few rescues. As the majority of the hikers are dayhikers, it means that overnighter rescues are going to be rare. For every high profile rescue, the typical winter rescue is probably split equally between medical emergencies due to chronic conditions (heart attacks ), medical evacuations due to non chronic conditions (breaks and sprains are popular with injuries related to falls) and the final portion being folks in over their heads or weather related.
The whites aren't Denali and they aren't the Rockies. Realistically they are a pocket of relative wilderness in an urban region with a couple of major highways providing access through the center of the area. The Adirondacks are far more of a wilderness due to the lack of major roads cutting through it. The approaches are longer and far more folks do overnighting although even in that area the concept of hauling in pulks and basecamping with dayhikes from the basecamp is far more popular. As mentioned, in the whites the farthest point from a road is most likely West Bond, the vast majority of 48's are 6 to 8 hours round trip and even Mt Washington is 8 to 12 hours if the conditions are right. Every major trail is broken out within 24 hours of a major storm and they usually turn into a sidewalk in three days. Folks have routinely done the same trip in winter as the deceased as a bareboot trip (no snowshoes) just microspikes. The typical trails to 4Ks in the whites are usually a long approach via old logging grades with a final steep ascent of 2 to 3 thousand feet in a fairly short distance. Lugging a heavy pack loaded with full overnight gear will slow most hikers by at least half once they hit the steep stuff. Pulks work on the approaches but useless once things get steep.
There are a few guide services that run multiday presidential traverses that are used for training folks aspiring to major expeditions and several colleges who run winter training trips but they are geared toward the experience versus just getting out and bagging a peak.
No one is spending the night above treeline in the whites when a 150mph storm hits. People tend to understand very quickly how bad the weather can be when they try to stay up there. The best strategy to stay alive is to get below tree line as quickly as possible. Planning to stay on top of the Presidentials in the Winter in the event of a storm is almost suicide.
it does not take much more than the day hiker already carries:
shelter - little more than a pound for a practical bivy
foam pad - from about 8 oz
bag - the critical item to extend your life by minimizing energy expenditure - a good 3 lb down bag for about 0 or 4 lb for -20
if you meter out the snacks that you carry, 10+ days in cold conditions is realistic - during the 900 day siege of Lenningrad the daily ration toward the end was less than 100 calories, many perished but many made it
to Tipi's statement of why people do it? - simple, because fatal results are probably less than 1 in 10,000
in industrial safety the rule of thumb is for about every one million unsafe acts there is one fatality - in a 10 hour shift, I will personally do as many as 20 "unsafe acts" …….. so far my ticket has never been punched
nsherry61
12-29-2016, 22:44
. . . Reminds me of the story of Steven Frazier . . .
Clearly one of your favorite stories Tipi. I don't know much about it other than what what I have read from you in the couple of posts where it has been use to make a point suggesting that Frazier was wise and skilled to do what he did.
I don't read it that way at all. 12 days of staying put without the where-with-all to self rescue through 20 miles of snowy Sierras? He couldn't figure out how to make two miles a day? He couldn't figure out how to find a route out because there wasn't a visible trail?
What was this guy doing, going into back-country without the skill to find his way back out again, even if it takes a few extra days because the going it slow with snow on the ground. I suppose he was wise in managing his food when he clearly didn't have the skill to self-rescue. But, it seems like having the skill to self rescue would be a much better choice of skills to have.
Slo-go'en
12-29-2016, 23:14
In todays Berlin Daily Sun "Inured hiker rescued off Mt Washington" Last Monday (12/26) a 45 year old man from Indiana developed an ankle injury on the way up Lions Head, but somehow made it to the summit building. He couldn't hike back down so the OBs had to call for the Snow Cat to get him down. By the time the Snow Cat got there, visibility was dropping with 75 mph wind gusts and wind chill well into the negative numbers. He was described as an experienced hiker with proper winter gear, but it's probably unlikely he would have made it through the night if the summit building hadn't let him in.
Traveler
12-30-2016, 07:10
It's Kate Matrosova.
This is yet another sad story in a long line of mishaps involving Dayhikers. Let me repeat: Dayhikers. Kate was a dayhiker and perished in terrible conditions. Remember David Decareaux and his two sons who died of hypothermia in the Ozarks several years ago? They too were dayhikers.
My point? Dayhikers just don't hike with enough gear to get them thru bad conditions. Most refuse to carry a sleeping bag and a tent or a decent tarp with stakes and good rain gear and ample extra clothing. Why is this?? Why is this, especially in winter??????????????????????????????
In this particular instance a young man, very familiar with the trail and mountains he was in, ended up falling victim to hypothermia. Whether this was due to the lack of overnight gear or not is really not the debate. There have been many instances like this one where hikers equipped with proper gear failed to use it in time to avoid hypothermia. In my view, the debate should be more focused on how one can make sound decisions when alone regarding go/no go and proceed/turn back during the hike.
Like a lot of us, I do a considerable amount of hiking alone and have worked out a fairly reliable plan of action that provides several opportunities to stop and consider my circumstance. When planning a day hike of any length over 6 miles out and back or a weekend outing, I set up decision points (DPs) where I will stop and make some basic examinations. The DPs are marked on a map, typically features I can easily recognize if tired or vision is obscured like trail intersections, view points, or water crossings. These decision points are established based on what gear I have or am planning on having with me, what the anticipated weather conditions are, and what type of terrain I will be traveling through.
At day hiking DP stops I examine a simple list of circumstances:
Am I too warm or cold?
If yes to either, make adjustments or turn back
Is my progress at or near my estimations?
If no, assess why not and see if the hike is able to be completed in the allotted time
Has the weather changed?
If yes, do I have gear for it and should I make a new DP to reassess continuing
Is there enough daylight to complete the hike?
If unsure, determine if headlamp hiking would be safe, if not, retreat is default
Since there are a lot of things that can add up to a dangerous circumstance, when dealing with small problems I find the rule of three to be valuable. The rule of three doctrine is pretty simple, when an unexpected circumstance like unforecasted weather change couples with another unexpected condition like gear failure (rain gear tears open), the third unexpected circumstance triggers the turn back decision on a day hike. When someone is hiking with me I use a similar strategy but discuss observations with my trail mate to reach a decision.
DPs are not infallible, however I found using them routinely I have grown accustomed to the stop, check, decide, act process they provide. There have been a few times when fatigue or lightheadedness has set in and stopping at a DP gave me the opportunity to make the turn back decision using the "if there's a doubt, there is no doubt" rationale.
While I understand hiking without a partner in winter conditions carries significantly higher levels of risk, if I had to wait for someone to go with me I would miss many days of being out and about. I have found having a plan helps mitigate poor decision making and the default decisions I have established has turned me back more than a few times over the years. Very likely some of those instances avoided more serious consequences.
Its not only about the gear, its about the decisions.
cmoulder
12-30-2016, 12:12
My approach is not as formalized but it is very similar... one large factor alone (such as wind above treeline) can lead to retreat, or several smaller factors combined can reach critical mass.
Also have to take care when with others because even though there is some merit to the idea of safety in numbers, there's always the possibility that someone is in trouble with fatigue, hypothermia, boot issue, etc, and doesn't want to ruin the trip for everybody else. This exact scenario led to a situation that was the closest I've ever come to seeing someone die in the mountains, and it was in a white-out at Edmands Col. Even after we made it safely back to the Perch, the sumbich never realized he had been a bee's weenie away from dying, and I never hiked with him again.
peakbagger
12-30-2016, 12:29
One of the folks on VFTT found a rather epic trip report on a winter hike to the same destination via the same route. I believe this was an AMC trip given the participants (but I could be wrong) http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/Bonds.html
Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 12:32
In this particular instance a young man, very familiar with the trail and mountains he was in, ended up falling victim to hypothermia. Whether this was due to the lack of overnight gear or not is really not the debate. There have been many instances like this one where hikers equipped with proper gear failed to use it in time to avoid hypothermia. In my view, the debate should be more focused on how one can make sound decisions when alone regarding go/no go and proceed/turn back during the hike.
Its not only about the gear, its about the decisions.
Everyone should take the following words to heart---
QUOTE OF THE DAY
"Equipment is your life. You have to be prepared to deal in extreme temperatures and extreme weather." Peter Whittaker.
240 ascents of Mt Ranier. Two Denali expeditions. Check out his resume---
https://www.rmiguides.com/about/guides/peter-whittaker
Point is, Gear is REALLY part of the debate in this case. But you're right, it's not only abut the gear but about the Decision to bring this gear and the decision to hunker in and set up where you stand. Why is this so difficult to understand?
Here are my decision points---
** Am I carrying enough gear to get me comfortably thru the night?
** Do I have extra headlamp batteries to get me out at night?
** Am I willing to carry the extra weight needed in food and gear to stay out overnight?
And everyone should listen to Chris Townsend---expert hiker---
CHRIS TOWNSEND QUOTES
"Surviving a night out on a long delay in winter depends to a great extent on the equipment you are carrying."
"The ability to use that equipment properly is of course important but you have to have the equipment in the first place."
"Staying warm and dry was more important than the weight of gear."
Check out his blog----
http://www.christownsendoutdoors.com/
It doesn't appear that Jack was planning to spend the night in the woods. He told his parents he'd be back home (in central MA) at 10 or 11 PM. In any case, it does cite the attempted hike as 22 miles, which is pretty darn ambitious for a day hike in the White Mountains in winter. Not to mention, pretty much the shortest day of the year.
The weather he faced late in the day was insidious -- somewhere between wet snow and rain with temps hovering right around freezing. Fleece or down outer layers aren't very effective in such conditions. You may not feel the chill while you're moving and exerting, but you'll feel it the instant you stop. Adrenaline will get you to the summit but watch out for the way down.
When I was a bit older than Jack, and "training" for a thru, I did some solo winter hikes in the White Mountains. Nothing very ambitious. I had my full pack and was prepared to camp. A trivial, almost laughable incident near the summit of Mt. Hayes (on the AT just north of Gorham) got me to thinking, how easy it would be to die out there. Timely rescue is highly unlikely. And few or no other hikers who might just pass by -- especially on Mt. Hayes, or in Jack's case, Bond Cliffs.
peakbagger
12-30-2016, 13:58
If he knew he was in trouble around West Bond, his best and only hope was head down to Guyot Shelter and hope there was someone camping there. It does get quite a bit of use in winter although Christmas Eve would be pushing it. Its a 4 sided shelter with large door opening facing east. It would be drier than being in the snow but not particularly warmer except for wind chlll. It has a wooden floor so no real option of a fire. Guyot is quite remote and in bad conditions it would still be major effort.
rocketsocks
12-30-2016, 14:11
On another site someone wrote "you can't outhike hypothermia" I think there's much truth in that.
Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 14:37
It doesn't appear that Jack was planning to spend the night in the woods. .
Exactly. The question some of us are asking is---Why not? Or at least have the gear needed for an unplanned night?
The whites aren't Denali and they aren't the Rockies. Realistically they are a pocket of relative wilderness in an urban region with a couple of major highways providing access through the center of the area. The Adirondacks are far more of a wilderness due to the lack of major roads cutting through it. The approaches are longer and far more folks do overnighting although even in that area the concept of hauling in pulks and basecamping with dayhikes from the basecamp is far more popular. As mentioned, in the whites the farthest point from a road is most likely West Bond, the vast majority of 48's are 6 to 8 hours round trip and even Mt Washington is 8 to 12 hours if the conditions are right. Every major trail is broken out within 24 hours of a major storm and they usually turn into a sidewalk in three days. Folks have routinely done the same trip in winter as the deceased as a bareboot trip (no snowshoes) just microspikes. The typical trails to 4Ks in the whites are usually a long approach via old logging grades with a final steep ascent of 2 to 3 thousand feet in a fairly short distance. Lugging a heavy pack loaded with full overnight gear will slow most hikers by at least half once they hit the steep stuff. Pulks work on the approaches but useless once things get steep.
Much truth to all this as well as the rest of the post I snipped it from. The story in that link from VFTT is pretty exciting, too. IIRC, the popular book Following Atticus also has an account of a near-death experience on a winter hike over Bond Cliffs.
Gaze at the AMC Franconia-Pemigewasset map. Jack's destination that day, Mt. Bond, sits at dead center of the Pemi wilderness, as far as one can be from a road. Several miles of flat trail out of the gate, all the climbing is at the end. It was a pretty ambitious thing to try as a day hike. The VFTT crew took 26 hours.
ScareBear
12-30-2016, 15:23
IMHO, if your plan for the hike takes you past dusk into dark and you don't have gear to overnight it, even in summer, you are being ounce-wise and pound-foolish. Forget about the weather stopping you. Injuries happen. Weather, you can plan around or abort. Injuries? Kinda spontaneous....just sayin...
If you have no overnight gear and are planning on being in the Whites after dark, its all on you, brother. All on you.
From personal experience with hypothermia, you'd be surprised when it can happen. Don't think it can happen above freezing? Think again. Don't think it can happen at 45 degrees? Think again. The one thing that surprised me, and I had seen hypothermia on prior occasions in others, was the speed of onset of symptoms and the speed of deterioration of the symptoms. From loss of manual dexterity to uncontrollable shivering was...maybe ten minutes, but it seemed a lot faster.
coach lou
12-30-2016, 15:24
"Staying warm and dry was more important and I don't care what it weights ."
Check out his blog-
-
Spent a very miserable night in RMNP after a group of us took a pretty bad fall on the east slope ice field between Mount Chapin and Mount Chiquita in the Mummy Range. We were forced to self rescue about 3 miles down the drainage to Old Fall River Rd. and it took over 16 hours to work our way through a never ending sea of huge old blowdowns in 38* rain. If we hadn't brought the well stocked first aid kit, extra clothing, and emergency shelter, I have no doubt some of us would not have survived that night.
A few pounds of gear and some extra food in a daypack is cheap insurance...
Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 19:06
IMHO, if your plan for the hike takes you past dusk into dark and you don't have gear to overnight it, even in summer, you are being ounce-wise and pound-foolish. Forget about the weather stopping you. Injuries happen. Weather, you can plan around or abort. Injuries? Kinda spontaneous....just sayin...
If you have no overnight gear and are planning on being in the Whites after dark, its all on you, brother. All on you.
From personal experience with hypothermia, you'd be surprised when it can happen. Don't think it can happen above freezing? Think again. Don't think it can happen at 45 degrees? Think again. The one thing that surprised me, and I had seen hypothermia on prior occasions in others, was the speed of onset of symptoms and the speed of deterioration of the symptoms. From loss of manual dexterity to uncontrollable shivering was...maybe ten minutes, but it seemed a lot faster.
Your great post reminds me of several things. I can count the times while out backpacking I arrived to a campsite shivering with hands like blocks of woods. I could not unclip my pack hipbelt or undo a zipper. Thru Dwayne-Johnson-effort I got the tent set up and out of my sleet-wet clothing and bundled up in the necessary layers and it took me two full hours to warm up enough to be able to write a coherent sentence in my trail journal. This kind of malaise happens easily in typical Southeastern winter weather. What's amazing is how dang cold it can be and still be raining. Not snow, rain. You might not be able to out walk hypothermia but you sure as heck can camp in it.
Many years ago we had some local boys who hiked cross country in the TN/NC mountains (from Sycamore Creek up and over Haw Mt to Huckleberry Knob) and perished on the backside of Huckleberry Knob at 5,600 feet, the highest hill in our area. Check out some pics---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Snowbirds/i-7WXHsMw/0/L/TRIP%20129%20007-L.jpg
I pulled a long winter trip in January 2012 and camped on top of Huckleberry Knob as shown and passed by the memorial cross to Sherman and O'Neil. I likened it then to the Art Gilkey-type memorial on K2 mountain but ours is right atop Huck Knob. The plaque reads:
"December 11, 1899---A bitter cold day with snow and fog. Andy Sherman and Paul O'Neil, lumberjacks from Mill Hall, Pennsylvania, employed by Heiser Lumber company, left the mouth of Sycamore Creek on Tellico River for Robbinsville. September 6, 1900---Forrest Denton was deer hunting with others and found their bodies three quarters of a mile from this spot near a small stream then unnamed, but now known as Dead Man's Run. Apparently the two men missed the trail down Hooper Ridge between Huckleberry Bald and Horse Pen Gap. Several jugs containing whiskey were found nearby."
"The sheriff and coroner were summoned to the site and an inquest was held, the jury finding that the men froze to death while lost and intoxicated. The jury directed that O'Neils skeleton be given to Dr Robert J. Orr as a medical exhibit and that the remains of Andrew Sherman, badly mauled by wild animals, was buried in this grave." Placed and Maintained by Snowbird Mountain Lodge, December 11, 1999.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Snowbirds/i-GznjDF2/0/L/TRIP%20129%20006-L.jpg
Its all about decisions. Not the gear. The decision was made to hike 22 miles. The decision was made to hike in a cold rain. A decision was made to do it in one go. A decision was made to travel light. The decision was made to not turn around earlier. A decision was made to ignore risks, or at least disregard the risks. Its all about the decisions. Most people grow older learning not to skate the hairy edge between life and death. Once you've survived enough close calls, one learns not to put themselves in that danger. Thats something that experience teaches. Young people believe themselves bulletproof until that one time they catch a bullet and it doesn't bounce off. We've all been there.
This young man, like Kate, made multiple decisions to put themselves at risk. A wiser, more experienced person may have survived those same decisions and survived to learn from it.
Its not about the gear. The gear is an end result of decisions made, and experience.
Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 19:20
Btw, study the above pic. This was the day I did something very stupid. I went over the top of Huckleberry Bald in a blustery tremendous windstorm and decided to head off the side of the mountain a little ways down into some tree cover where I found several level spots for my tent.
I dumped my full pack in the trees off the "trail" at a level spot and wanted to explore the area for a better recon.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Snowbirds/i-kHhczdQ/0/L/TRIP%20129%20011-L.jpg
This is the spot I initially dumped my pack and then went on a stupid exploratory recon. Well, I got lost and separated from my pack for many panicked minutes and dangit I could not find this one solitary spot with my normally-huge but now tiny pack sitting in the middle of nowhere. I went back and forth all over the side of this foggy mountain breakdown and finally decided to head up as up would take me to the memorial cross and the top of the hill. Once on top I pulled a below-the-bald perimeter hike in a big circle until I found the faint trail leading into the trees. Staying on the trail I finally found my beloved pack.
Moral of the story? NEVER leave your pack to go looking for better campsites, especially in high winds, fog and cold. Lesson learned.
Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 19:27
Its all about decisions. Not the gear. The decision was made to hike 22 miles. The decision was made to hike in a cold rain. A decision was made to do it in one go. A decision was made to travel light. The decision was made to not turn around earlier. A decision was made to ignore risks, or at least disregard the risks. Its all about the decisions. Most people grow older learning not to skate the hairy edge between life and death. Once you've survived enough close calls, one learns not to put themselves in that danger. Thats something that experience teaches. Young people believe themselves bulletproof until that one time they catch a bullet and it doesn't bounce off. We've all been there.
This young man, like Kate, made multiple decisions to put themselves at risk. A wiser, more experienced person may have survived those same decisions and survived to learn from it.
Its not about the gear. The gear is an end result of decisions made, and experience.
As I said repeatedly and excessively, carrying the appropriate Gear is a decision!! Gear itself is not a decision but this is mindless semantics. If you have a shelter and a bag and some food on the one hand and the other hand contains Decisions, which one would you prefer?
Winter backpackers all the time make the decision to hike 22 miles and to hike in a cold rain and to do it in one go. They even decide to take minimal gear and travel light. Winter backpackers also decide to not turn around earlier---Why? Because they can camp where they stand.
You say "It's not about the gear" . . . and yet experts in mountaineering, hiking and backpacking disagree with you. Read my quotes.
All I'm saying is if a winter dayhiker wants to hike 22 miles in a cold rain on a dayhike he would've made the right decision had he made another decision to carry more gear like a bag and shelter and food and a pad. Gear in other words makes up for bad decisions.
As I said repeatedly and excessively, carrying the appropriate Gear is a decision!! Gear itself is not a decision but this is mindless semantics. If you have a shelter and a bag and some food on the one hand and the other hand contains Decisions, which one would you prefer?
Winter backpackers all the time make the decision to hike 22 miles and to hike in a cold rain and to do it in one go. They even decide to take minimal gear and travel light. Winter backpackers also decide to not turn around earlier---Why? Because they can camp where they stand.
You say "It's not about the gear" . . . and yet experts in mountaineering, hiking and backpacking disagree with you. Read my quotes.
All I'm saying is if a winter dayhiker wants to hike 22 miles in a cold rain on a dayhike he would've made the right decision had he made another decision to carry more gear like a bag and shelter and food and a pad. Gear in other words makes up for bad decisions.
Would you please, pretty please, publish your gear list so we will all know what do when hiking, backpacking, backcamping in the winter.
Also more info on a Dwayne-Johnson tent setup philosophy.
As I said repeatedly and excessively, carrying the appropriate Gear is a decision!! Gear itself is not a decision but this is mindless semantics. If you have a shelter and a bag and some food on the one hand and the other hand contains Decisions, which one would you prefer?
Winter backpackers all the time make the decision to hike 22 miles and to hike in a cold rain and to do it in one go. They even decide to take minimal gear and travel light. Winter backpackers also decide to not turn around earlier---Why? Because they can camp where they stand.
You say "It's not about the gear" . . . and yet experts in mountaineering, hiking and backpacking disagree with you. Read my quotes.
All I'm saying is if a winter dayhiker wants to hike 22 miles in a cold rain on a dayhike he would've made the right decision had he made another decision to carry more gear like a bag and shelter and food and a pad. Gear in other words makes up for bad decisions.
The best gear in the world isn't going to overcome poor decisions. Plenty of well equipped mountaineers on Everest that will never come off that mountain.
ScareBear
12-30-2016, 21:42
Its all about decisions. Not the gear. The decision was made to hike 22 miles. The decision was made to hike in a cold rain. A decision was made to do it in one go. A decision was made to travel light. The decision was made to not turn around earlier. A decision was made to ignore risks, or at least disregard the risks. Its all about the decisions. Most people grow older learning not to skate the hairy edge between life and death. Once you've survived enough close calls, one learns not to put themselves in that danger. Thats something that experience teaches. Young people believe themselves bulletproof until that one time they catch a bullet and it doesn't bounce off. We've all been there.
This young man, like Kate, made multiple decisions to put themselves at risk. A wiser, more experienced person may have survived those same decisions and survived to learn from it.
Its not about the gear. The gear is an end result of decisions made, and experience.
While I agree that poor decision making leads to poor results/outcomes, do not disregard the lack of adequate critical thought abilities, which is mostly inborn(sorta like intellect). It's either the inability to figure the odds of success v. rescue/death or the inability to appreciate said odds once you've figured them out, that leads to deadly situations. IMHO, neither ability improves appreciably with experience. In other words, well....Professor Darwin. He had a valid point, you know....
MuddyWaters
12-30-2016, 21:51
When conditions can kill with reasonable probability, some prudence and contingency planning and/or gear is a darned good idea.
This is true for all kinds of activities.
People fail to do this all the time. Either dont recognize risks or have learned to disregard. We read about them...
Tipi Walter
12-30-2016, 23:47
When conditions can kill with reasonable probability, some prudence and contingency planning and/or gear is a darned good idea.
This is true for all kinds of activities.
People fail to do this all the time. Either dont recognize risks or have learned to disregard. We read about them...
This brings up the almost universal Dayhiker's Outfit---Blue jeans, a t-shirt, maybe a bottle of water. That's it.
nsherry61
12-31-2016, 00:23
I find it interesting and a little disturbing that the primary conclusion of this thread (at least by my reading) is that Jack Holden made a series of bad decisions that lead to his death by hypothermia. He should have turned back. He should have brought other gear. Etc.
My take on this tragedy is as follows:
If you read the news articles (which can obviously be flawed, but, they're what we have) . . .
Jack was experienced and carrying appropriate gear for what he was doing. He probably made it to Mt. Bond and West Bond, and was probably on his way back to the trail-head when he got into trouble. He had appropriate gear, but was clearly unable to use it appropriately to save his life. Turning back earlier would have made little sense since he was already on his way back when he got into trouble. He was fit and capable, so a 22 mile winter hike with the gear he had was not unreasonable. For what it's worth, the top of Bondcliff where Jack was apparently found, is maybe 10 or 15 minutes above treeline when heading back toward the trail-head.
SO, HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?
Hypothermia hit him faster and harder than he was prepared for. Combined water and wind-chill acted faster on his core temp than he realized it could or would. This speed issue was commented on earlier in this thread. He probably let himself get a bit cold and by the time he decided to take action, it was too late, his coordination and mental capacity were too far gone.
SO, WHAT IS THE TAKE-HOME MESSAGE?
It's not to make smarter better decisions or carry more gear! Many of us would probably have made the same decisions Jack did under the circumstances, and all the gear in the world wouldn't have saved his life if he put off using it until it was too late.
The message to take out of this is that hypothermia is dangerous as hell and can act much faster on us than we expect it to.
Don't let yourself get cold in wet and/or windy conditions. Stay warm. Stop and put on enough gear to get warm. Keep moving and get to shelter, even if shelter is just down below tree-line and out of the wind.
Tipi Walter
12-31-2016, 01:06
SO, WHAT IS THE TAKE-HOME MESSAGE?
It's not to make smarter better decisions or carry more gear! Many of us would probably have made the same decisions Jack did under the circumstances, and all the gear in the world wouldn't have saved his life if he put off using it until it was too late.
The message to take out of this is that hypothermia is dangerous as hell and can act much faster on us than we expect it to.
Don't let yourself get cold in wet and/or windy conditions. Stay warm. Stop and put on enough gear to get warm. Keep moving and get to shelter, even if shelter is just down below tree-line and out of the wind.
Despite your initial assessment, your take-home message is to not let yourself get cold in wet or windy conditions. Stay warm. Stop and layer up to get warm. Keep moving. Get to shelter. But you first say it's not about smarter, better decisions or carrying more gear.
On my winter backpacking trips I often get wet and cold; sometimes in tremendous winds. I sometimes stop and layer up (or layer down to prevent sweat-soaked clothing). I always keep moving. And I always get warm because I always get to a shelter---My tent. Which btw is on my back. Winter backpackers routinely face these conditions on a day by day basis, and some seek out high exposed places to find solace in high winds, spindrift, subzeros, blizzards and whiteouts. It's nothing new---just part of the usual January and February storms.
Dayhikers travel the same exact land and routes I travel---and yet why are they not able to sit put and hunker in during Miss Nature's best winter events?? One word: GEAR. It's the only difference between them and me. I make the same crazy decisions, I get wet and cold, I push on when I should not, I negotiate nutbusting trails in the ice---the same as any adventurous dayhiker. Except when I reach the end of my tether and get knackered, I don't have any need whatsoever to loop around or backtrack to a car in a panic and get the heck out on a nighthike because my home for the night is on my back. This one simple fact and several pieces of simple gear keep me around to hunker in and wake up in the morning to start again.
Like I said, many of my winter decisions are incorrect and wrong---I get too cold and too tired and too strung out and I sometimes hike into the night---lethal for some dayhikers---and yet I have the gear on my back---it's my survival kit---to get me stopped and hunkered in to see the first rays of dawn the next day. It's all about seeing the next day.
rocketsocks
12-31-2016, 04:09
I truly appreciate the type threads, I hope I can remember all the tidbits of great information when my time comes around, and have the where with all to implement them, damn shame we have to discuss this at the expense of a fallen hiker though. Thanks all.
As I said repeatedly and excessively, carrying the appropriate Gear is a decision!!...
That's exactly what I was thinking...how can you separate gear from decisions...just look at the hundreds of threads centered around someone trying to decide what to pack.
Traveler
12-31-2016, 06:41
As I said repeatedly and excessively, carrying the appropriate Gear is a decision!!
I am glad you finally agree. Everything follows the decision(s).
MuddyWaters
12-31-2016, 06:59
I truly appreciate the type threads, I hope I can remember all the tidbits of great information when my time comes around, and have the where with all to implement them, damn shame we have to discuss this at the expense of a fallen hiker though. Thanks all.
If others can learn from someones mistakes and prevent future losses, then just possibly the death wasnt as pointless as it may appear.
If not, then maybe it is.
Which does greater tribute to the deceased?
At least thats how I tend to see it.
Some others feel you are disrespecting deceased by analyzing and criticizing their mistakes. I think the opposite.
Traveler
12-31-2016, 07:26
If others can learn from someones mistakes and prevent future losses, then just possibly the death wasnt as pointless as it may appear.
If not, then maybe it is.
Which does greater tribute to the deceased?
At least thats how I tend to see it.
Some others feel you are disrespecting deceased by analyzing and criticizing their mistakes. I think the opposite.
+1 and a well stated point. If we do not look at these incidents with an objective, critical eye we are not able to learn from them. This kind of incident where the person had gear that should have mitigated hypothermia but apparently wasn't used is perplexing. Analyzing what may have occurred there may present someone with a solution to avoiding a similar fate.
Puddlefish
12-31-2016, 09:33
There's a whole lot of conjecture about gear in this thread. We have no idea if he had a winter tent, pad and sleeping bag in his pack.
Good decisions and hypothermia are mutually exclusive. Once hypothermia gets to the mental stage, all the gear in the world won't help. It then comes down to your personal risk assessment before the hike.
I'm not comfortable hiking solo above the tree line in the NH winter, but that's me. I'm a really wimpy winter hiker. Carry a three season tent, pad, sleeping bag, food, water, spare clothes, for a three mile hike at low elevations on familiar trails. Check the weather, alert someone responsible exactly where I'm going and when I expect to be back. I'd likely survive (albeit very uncomfortably) overnight.
I could still trip, bump my head and die of course, but that could happen while I'm shoveling my driveway. I also take a lot less risks now that I'm older. At age 26 I was skiing down the Tuckerman's headwall without a care in the world.
nsherry61
12-31-2016, 10:20
Despite your initial assessment, your take-home message is to not let yourself get cold in wet or windy conditions. Stay warm. Stop and layer up to get warm. Keep moving. Get to shelter. But you first say it's not about smarter, better decisions or carrying more gear. . .
Maybe I should have been more clear about my thoughts. Of course, we all get cold to some degree, sometimes when we are out. According to the news reports, Jack had "appropriate gear" but didn't use it. So, the gear he was carrying, is arguably NOT THE ISSUE. It's how he (an experience winter hiker) got into the situation that lead to him not being able to save his life with the resources he did have at hand, including walking a few more minutes in the direction he was apparently headed, into the relative safety of the treeline.
. . . This kind of incident where the person had gear that should have mitigated hypothermia but apparently wasn't used is perplexing. Analyzing what may have occurred there may present someone with a solution to avoiding a similar fate.
This to me is the point. It highlights that even for an experienced person, deadly hypothermia can creep up and kill if we are not vigilant and proactive about our core temperature. I would like to suggest that the solution is not "better decisions", when we all know we can make bad decisions at bad times. I would suggest that the solution is to use this instance as an opportunity to be extra-vigilant about how fast and surprising the onset of hypothermia induced stupidity can take away our ability to make the right decisions. So, make extra effort to not even get close even if you know that safety is not far away.
MuddyWaters
12-31-2016, 12:44
Maybe I should have been more clear about my thoughts. Of course, we all get cold to some degree, sometimes when we are out. According to the news reports, Jack had "appropriate gear" but didn't use it. So, the gear he was carrying, is arguably NOT THE ISSUE. It's how he (an experience winter hiker) got into the situation that lead to him not being able to save his life with the resources he did have at hand, including walking a few more minutes in the direction he was apparently headed, into the relative safety of the treeline.
This to me is the point. It highlights that even for an experienced person, deadly hypothermia can creep up and kill if we are not vigilant and proactive about our core temperature. I would like to suggest that the solution is not "better decisions", when we all know we can make bad decisions at bad times. I would suggest that the solution is to use this instance as an opportunity to be extra-vigilant about how fast and surprising the onset of hypothermia induced stupidity can take away our ability to make the right decisions. So, make extra effort to not even get close even if you know that safety is not far away.
Without qualifications, we dont know what the gear was actually appropriate for.
We do know how it was used apparently left no room for error. And unfortunately, error he did.
This is given by the outcome.
It would be nice if we could learn from it.
Temperatures do drop very fast when the orange ball goes down behind the mountain.
ScareBear
12-31-2016, 12:46
Maybe I should have been more clear about my thoughts. Of course, we all get cold to some degree, sometimes when we are out. According to the news reports, Jack had "appropriate gear" but didn't use it. So, the gear he was carrying, is arguably NOT THE ISSUE. It's how he (an experience winter hiker) got into the situation that lead to him not being able to save his life with the resources he did have at hand, including walking a few more minutes in the direction he was apparently headed, into the relative safety of the treeline.
This to me is the point. It highlights that even for an experienced person, deadly hypothermia can creep up and kill if we are not vigilant and proactive about our core temperature. I would like to suggest that the solution is not "better decisions", when we all know we can make bad decisions at bad times. I would suggest that the solution is to use this instance as an opportunity to be extra-vigilant about how fast and surprising the onset of hypothermia induced stupidity can take away our ability to make the right decisions. So, make extra effort to not even get close even if you know that safety is not far away.
On the hypothermia topic, I can personally attest to the simple fact that I made an initial poor decision, and had all the proper gear in my pack. The initial poor decision was that I was hiking hard in NC on the AT and it was 55 degrees out and it started misting. No problemo, it was keeping me cool...as I said, I was hiking hard in the mountains...
Long story short, I screwed the pooch. I was beat by the time we peaked and reached the campsite. Temps had dropped to 45 degrees during the climb. the mist had turned to heavy drizzle, I was soaked and the last 1/4 mile was completely exposed to 20knt winds. I managed to drop the pack, but couldn't manipulate the buckle to the shove-it pocket to deploy the tent. The wind was howling at 20knts gusting to 25 or 30. It was an f-me moment. I knew I was running out of time and options. After all the years in the backcountry, skiing, snowshoeing, camping...all in huge ass storms...I never let my guard down and never got too close to hypothermia...until now on the damn AT....and it wasn't even below freezing. I actually had a thought run through my head as the shivering set in that those words would be on my headstone..."and it wasn't even below freezing"....
My poor decision was not to immediately stop and don rain gear. It was only 2 more miles to the campsite, mostly uphill. I thought I'd stay warm enough just by upping the action...well I did, until the moment I stopped and then it was too freaking late.
Tipi Walter
12-31-2016, 12:58
On the hypothermia topic, I can personally attest to the simple fact that I made an initial poor decision, and had all the proper gear in my pack. The initial poor decision was that I was hiking hard in NC on the AT and it was 55 degrees out and it started misting. No problemo, it was keeping me cool...as I said, I was hiking hard in the mountains...
Long story short, I screwed the pooch. I was beat by the time we peaked and reached the campsite. Temps had dropped to 45 degrees during the climb. the mist had turned to heavy drizzle, I was soaked and the last 1/4 mile was completely exposed to 20knt winds. I managed to drop the pack, but couldn't manipulate the buckle to the shove-it pocket to deploy the tent. The wind was howling at 20knts gusting to 25 or 30. It was an f-me moment. I knew I was running out of time and options. After all the years in the backcountry, skiing, snowshoeing, camping...all in huge ass storms...I never let my guard down and never got too close to hypothermia...until now on the damn AT....and it wasn't even below freezing. I actually had a thought run through my head as the shivering set in that those words would be on my headstone..."and it wasn't even below freezing"....
My poor decision was not to immediately stop and don rain gear. It was only 2 more miles to the campsite, mostly uphill. I thought I'd stay warm enough just by upping the action...well I did, until the moment I stopped and then it was too freaking late.
TOO LATE FOR WHAT?????
So, you screwed the pooch. Understood. But too freaking late for what?? What happened? Did you set up camp and survive? Are you now dead? Did someone rescue you? Did a helicopter fly in and pull you out? The whole point of the story is whether your gear saved your life or not. Did it? Was it useless at this point? If you were a dayhiker with no gear what would've been different? Did hiking friends save your life inside their own tents? What happened??
can you just share your gear list so we will all know what to bring?
can you just share your gear list so we will all know what to bring?
Without getting into specifics, I'd say bring what you need to survive a night of awful weather, and bring extras of all life-saving items, especially hat, gloves/mittens, neck, face and eye protection, socks, base layers.
My winter day-hiking backpack weighs as much or more as my summer backpack loaded up for a three day section. I leave behind the kitchen and most of the food, but I carry several different traction devices, and the above-mentioned spares and survival items.
With luck, none of it will be needed. I'm OK with that.
ScareBear
12-31-2016, 13:50
TOO LATE FOR WHAT?????
So, you screwed the pooch. Understood. But too freaking late for what?? What happened? Did you set up camp and survive? Are you now dead? Did someone rescue you? Did a helicopter fly in and pull you out? The whole point of the story is whether your gear saved your life or not. Did it? Was it useless at this point? If you were a dayhiker with no gear what would've been different? Did hiking friends save your life inside their own tents? What happened??
My gear would have saved me from the hypothermia, had I made the correct decision to don it at the decision point. The point I was making was that it was the initial incorrect decision not to don the correct gear that I had brought that f'd me.
So, to bring the tale of shivering woe to close, I was not able to get the tent bag out of the pack, using the buckle on the pack. I did don the rain jacket, after a ton of effort, but couldn't manipulate the zipper. I made a run for woods to get out of the wind until my former TrailPartner(tm) caught up. She deployed the tent from my pack and I crawled inside while she staked and guyed it. I was unable to be of assistance in any of the tent set up as the shivering had set in, despite the rain jacket. Once out of the wind in the tent in the rain jacket it took about ten minutes to stop shivering. She had put my balaclava on for me and that was helping greatly. Got the mat inflated and crawled in the down bag. Twenty minutes later I was able to function correctly.
When I said it was too late, I was referring to the fact that it was too late in the progression to immediately halt the onset of the shivering. Plan B was to wrestle the tent out of the shove-it pocket with sheer adrenaline and wrap myself in the fly like a cocoon and warm up via VBL effect. I do believe I could have accomplished this, but it wasn't a guarantee, by any means...
Yeah, a 5 foot tall, 95 pound girl saved me, OK? She was quite the TrailPartner(tm)...just sayin...
Secondmouse
12-31-2016, 15:40
Btw, study the above pic. This was the day I did something very stupid. I went over the top of Huckleberry Bald in a blustery tremendous windstorm and decided to head off the side of the mountain a little ways down into some tree cover where I found several level spots for my tent.
I dumped my full pack in the trees off the "trail" at a level spot and wanted to explore the area for a better recon.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Snowbirds/i-kHhczdQ/0/L/TRIP%20129%20011-L.jpg
This is the spot I initially dumped my pack and then went on a stupid exploratory recon. Well, I got lost and separated from my pack for many panicked minutes and dangit I could not find this one solitary spot with my normally-huge but now tiny pack sitting in the middle of nowhere. I went back and forth all over the side of this foggy mountain breakdown and finally decided to head up as up would take me to the memorial cross and the top of the hill. Once on top I pulled a below-the-bald perimeter hike in a big circle until I found the faint trail leading into the trees. Staying on the trail I finally found my beloved pack.
Moral of the story? NEVER leave your pack to go looking for better campsites, especially in high winds, fog and cold. Lesson learned.
great post. hiking on the white blaze trail is different than walking through woods. it's so hard to convince people just how common/easy it is to miss your pack, campsite, even the trail when you venture away from it...
One Half
12-31-2016, 16:14
One of the folks on VFTT found a rather epic trip report on a winter hike to the same destination via the same route. I believe this was an AMC trip given the participants (but I could be wrong) http://home.earthlink.net/~ellozy/Bonds.html
what's VFTT?
what's VFTT?
Views from the top. A blog frequented primarily by White Mountains peakbaggers.
One Half
12-31-2016, 16:27
As I said repeatedly and excessively, carrying the appropriate Gear is a decision!! Gear itself is not a decision but this is mindless semantics. If you have a shelter and a bag and some food on the one hand and the other hand contains Decisions, which one would you prefer?
Winter backpackers all the time make the decision to hike 22 miles and to hike in a cold rain and to do it in one go. They even decide to take minimal gear and travel light. Winter backpackers also decide to not turn around earlier---Why? Because they can camp where they stand.
You say "It's not about the gear" . . . and yet experts in mountaineering, hiking and backpacking disagree with you. Read my quotes.
All I'm saying is if a winter dayhiker wants to hike 22 miles in a cold rain on a dayhike he would've made the right decision had he made another decision to carry more gear like a bag and shelter and food and a pad. Gear in other words makes up for bad decisions.
Do we know when it started raining?
pilgrimskywheel
12-31-2016, 16:51
TOO LATE FOR WHAT?????
So, you screwed the pooch. Understood. But too freaking late for what?? What happened? Did you set up camp and survive? Are you now dead? Did someone rescue you? Did a helicopter fly in and pull you out? The whole point of the story is whether your gear saved your life or not. Did it? Was it useless at this point? If you were a dayhiker with no gear what would've been different? Did hiking friends save your life inside their own tents? What happened??
LMFAO! Only that kind of omnipotence and omniscience could come from beyond the grave! Seriously laughing so hard I have to tinkle a little. Any word on what this poor dead kid had with him - and not with him? I'm guessing no poles or crampons. I've got to go back and read the whole thread - fortunately there's lots of meteorological winter left! Thank you Walter, for making peeking out my tent fly at the planet Hoth funny again!
Tundracamper
12-31-2016, 16:54
It would be nice if we could learn from it.
Yes it would. It seems these incidents just fade away. Just like the boy that was attacked by a bear in the smokies. That was reported to be a random incident at the time. Did the survey of the evidence lead to that same conclusion or do they believe there might have been some other factor that drew in the bear (e.g. nearby food)?
I think having details and facts along with a summery of what should have been done differently, if anything could have been done, would be nice.
Do we know when it started raining?
Why would it matter? In terms of preparedness or prevention, it's irrelevant. One really needs to plan for the worst. Which is likely what happened here, since it appears he made it to the summit and then a short way back.
One thing that hasn't been stressed enough in this thread (IMO) is the element of time, and fatigue over time. If you read Krakauer's Into Thin Air you see it played out. Climbers were too slow getting to the summit but failed to turn back. They were caught high on the mountain with all systems flashing red -- fatigue, weather, visibility, oxygen.
Chapter 8 of Following Atticus has a vivid, harrowing account of a walk along the Mt. Bond ridgeline in winter -- deep drifts, blowing snow and near zero visibility.
The story in Alive is worth mentioning as well. The ascent was harder and took longer than expected. The near-fatal mishap occurred on the descent.
pilgrimskywheel
12-31-2016, 17:12
Yes it would. It seems these incidents just fade away. Just like the boy that was attacked by a bear in the smokies. That was reported to be a random incident at the time. Did the survey of the evidence lead to that same conclusion or do they believe there might have been some other factor that drew in the bear (e.g. nearby food)?
I think having details and facts along with a summery of what should have been done differently, if anything could have been done, would be nice.
Bears investigate just about anything that smells. People smell, people smell like food and they go together like peanut butter and chocolate. It was more like a tasting than it was an attack. They shot the bear of course and people went nuts about it until there was something else to take umbrage with, then they changed the channel. The bit kid actually put an awesome post on here to dispel the wild speculation on WB, and calls for his head etc. Turns out he did NOT slick up with honey and jam before bed, and was a very responsible and vigilant hiker. Sorry I'm Irish - okay I'm not sorry - so death is a subject for humor, (as long as it's not my own) in this case the bears. I'm also amused by folks who eat meat at every meal then go looking to crucify a hiker for the unforgivable sin of packing Snicker Bars while overlooking entirely how terrifying - not to mention painful - a late night bear tasting episode is.
Secondmouse
12-31-2016, 17:18
equipment/decisions decisions/equipment???
nobody's talking about training and experience. if this kid HAD the equipment necessary to survive and didn't use it, that wasn't a decision. it's training/experience that let's you recognize the dangerous conditions and the onset of hypothermia symptoms to prevent them before they occur.
it's not a decision to stop and strip off your wet clothes and climb into your bag and emergency bivy once your hands are so stiff and you're shaking so bad you can't do that and even sophisticated knowledge fails if you haven't the training or experience to put things into use when the chips are down.
a good emergency drill is called "man in the creek", where you attempt to make a fire with crotch-high flames as quickly as possible -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEZlRy0lyZU
one of the smallest/lightest emergency tools is the Palmer Furnace, named for the cave explorer Arthur Palmer who used his carbide lamp held under his shirt to warm up. you can easily make a functional one with your poncho, a large trash bag with a hole in it for your head, or a mylar emergency blanket and a candle. a couple of tealight candles will work but not as quick as a larger one.
the idea is to sit on a warm dry spot (your pack), cross your legs and place the candle(s) between them and cover yourself completely with the trash bag or e-blanket. pretty quickly the temp inside will raise 20 or more degrees which should give you enough advantage to prevent or reverse hypothermia symptoms, allowing you to take more substantial measures for survival.
but again, you have to decide to carry this emergency equipment but even then, simply having gear won't help you unless you've actually been trained to recognize dangerous circumstances and apply life-saving skills...
rocketsocks
12-31-2016, 18:01
If others can learn from someones mistakes and prevent future losses, then just possibly the death wasnt as pointless as it may appear.
If not, then maybe it is.
Which does greater tribute to the deceased?
At least thats how I tend to see it.
Some others feel you are disrespecting deceased by analyzing and criticizing their mistakes. I think the opposite.i agree, good post!
the idea is to sit on a warm dry spot (your pack), cross your legs and place the candle(s) between them and cover yourself completely with the trash bag or e-blanket. pretty quickly the temp inside will raise 20 or more degrees which should give you enough advantage to prevent or reverse hypothermia symptoms, allowing you to take more substantial measures for survival.
I did something like this (minus the candle) this spring on the GAP. Temp was about 45 with hard rain that just wouldn't quit. I didn't feel like setting up my tent, things weren't anywhere near that desperate and it was still early in the day. So instead I found a bench to sit on, pulled my knees up so that I was completely covered by my poncho, and just sat quietly. After about 15 minutes of that I was warmed up enough to ride some more.
Tundracamper
12-31-2016, 18:24
Although totally different situations, the documentary "Touching the Void" is an interesting perspective on getting out of a pretty dire situation. A climber was left for dead in an ice crevice after breaking his leg. I watched it on Netflix just last week.
Tipi Walter
12-31-2016, 18:32
It seems these incidents just fade away.
Such incidents don't fade away for me. I copy these various mishaps and take them out with me on my backpacking trips and read thru them one by one. I often describe them in my trip reports and weigh the good, the bad and the ugly. I write reviews of each one, from Jeff Kish's rescue on Mt Hood to Mike Gourley's hell hike in the Smokies to a score of others.
One thing that hasn't been stressed enough in this thread (IMO) is the element of time, and fatigue over time. If you read Krakauer's Into Thin Air you see it played out. Climbers were too slow getting to the summit but failed to turn back. They were caught high on the mountain with all systems flashing red -- fatigue, weather, visibility, oxygen.
You bring up what I call The Turn Around Time. It not only pertains to mountaineers with summit fever but to common winter backpackers who get over-extended, wasted, wiped out and collapsed. All hikers need to keep a finger on the pulse of their day's hike---and know when to either turn back or set up camp.
What is the turn around time for a backpacker? Simple---Do I have enough mojo left to find a campsite and set up the shelter? Do I have enough reserves in the tank to battle one last hour to square away camp and collapse in a heap in my tent? Winter is the main time to be doing this self-inventory on an hourly basis. MOST ESPECIALLY ON SOLO TRIPS.
it's not a decision to stop and strip off your wet clothes and climb into your bag and emergency bivy once your hands are so stiff and you're shaking so bad you can't do that and even sophisticated knowledge fails if you haven't the training or experience to put things into use when the chips are down.
but again, you have to decide to carry this emergency equipment but even then, simply having gear won't help you unless you've actually been trained to recognize dangerous circumstances and apply life-saving skills...
You're basically talking about Timing---see my above words. If a person pushes his turn around time too far he will be paralyzed with fatigue and cold and not care to even get into his pack and maybe not even care to take it off. "Self-inventory (of your mojo) on an hourly basis" is what we're talking about.
Tipi, I explicitly mentioned turn-around time in my first post of this thread. (Msg. #17).
If spending the night in the woods is to be avoided, it's kind of an important concept. ;)
Tipi Walter
12-31-2016, 18:54
Tipi, I explicitly mentioned turn-around time in my first post of this thread. (Msg. #17).
If spending the night in the woods is to be avoided, it's kind of an important concept. ;)
Yes, I'm familiar with the mountaineering definition of Turn Around Time no matter what condition you find yourself in at the time. It's more of a technique set for an established hour in the day, such as a 1pm turn around time. Dayhikers in the Whites could set a 2pm turn around time, for example, and still be far from wiped out or fatigued. Backpackers on the other hand could set a different kind of Camp Now Time and go further before setting up.
My hiking/backpacking turn around time is based more not on the hour of the day but on personal exhaustion levels and how much juice I've got left to go on. But it's not a turn around time really but a Set Up Camp Time. "Camp Where You Stand" is another definition.
This knowledge unfortunately only comes thru knowing your body well enough in a hiking sense to know your limits. It's like gas in a car---when it runs out you're finished. Spare Gas in this analogy is the gear on your back.
peakbagger
12-31-2016, 19:19
what's VFTT?
Views From the Top - VFTT.ORG VFTT.com still exists as a zombie site, it hasn't been updated for several years. VFTT is one of the oldest NE hiking forums. It is mostly oriented towards the whites but also has ADK section and about the only forum that has Maine coverage.
ldsailor
12-31-2016, 21:18
Its a sad case, here is some background for folks who may not be familiar with the area especially in winter.
The hike he was doing was about as remote as a hiker can get in the White Mountain National Forest. He appears to have been doing an "out and ...
A very fascinating read. Thank you. I'm going to save this since I hope to get to the White's eventually as I section hike the AT northbound.
One Half
12-31-2016, 21:33
Why would it matter? In terms of preparedness or prevention, it's irrelevant. One really needs to plan for the worst. Which is likely what happened here, since it appears he made it to the summit and then a short way back.
One thing that hasn't been stressed enough in this thread (IMO) is the element of time, and fatigue over time. If you read Krakauer's Into Thin Air you see it played out. Climbers were too slow getting to the summit but failed to turn back. They were caught high on the mountain with all systems flashing red -- fatigue, weather, visibility, oxygen.
Chapter 8 of Following Atticus has a vivid, harrowing account of a walk along the Mt. Bond ridgeline in winter -- deep drifts, blowing snow and near zero visibility.
The story in Alive is worth mentioning as well. The ascent was harder and took longer than expected. The near-fatal mishap occurred on the descent.
I think it matters. If it started raining early and he kept going instead of turning around, really poor decision, especially if he didn't put on wet weather clothing to stay dry, or if he had on too much that he was sweating under his layers. If it started raining after he was nearly back to the TH, then questions as to why/how hypothermia set in so quick might have different answers.
pilgrimskywheel
12-31-2016, 21:55
equipment/decisions decisions/equipment???
nobody's talking about training and experience. if this kid HAD the equipment necessary to survive and didn't use it, that wasn't a decision. it's training/experience that let's you recognize the dangerous conditions and the onset of hypothermia symptoms to prevent them before they occur.
it's not a decision to stop and strip off your wet clothes and climb into your bag and emergency bivy once your hands are so stiff and you're shaking so bad you can't do that and even sophisticated knowledge fails if you haven't the training or experience to put things into use when the chips are down.
a good emergency drill is called "man in the creek", where you attempt to make a fire with crotch-high flames as quickly as possible -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEZlRy0lyZU
one of the smallest/lightest emergency tools is the Palmer Furnace, named for the cave explorer Arthur Palmer who used his carbide lamp held under his shirt to warm up. you can easily make a functional one with your poncho, a large trash bag with a hole in it for your head, or a mylar emergency blanket and a candle. a couple of tealight candles will work but not as quick as a larger one.
the idea is to sit on a warm dry spot (your pack), cross your legs and place the candle(s) between them and cover yourself completely with the trash bag or e-blanket. pretty quickly the temp inside will raise 20 or more degrees which should give you enough advantage to prevent or reverse hypothermia symptoms, allowing you to take more substantial measures for survival.
but again, you have to decide to carry this emergency equipment but even then, simply having gear won't help you unless you've actually been trained to recognize dangerous circumstances and apply life-saving skills...
You know what? Enough is enough. You don't need any training or experience for this totally avoidable situation that ended in pointless tragedy. Why? Because just like the old saying goes: "Even a fool knows enough to come in from the rain." You hike up a mountain December 26th in a rain storm and keep going you turn into a Popsicle - not really a shocker. How folks are still head scratching on this one is beyond me.
rocketsocks
12-31-2016, 22:13
You know what? Enough is enough. You don't need any training or experience for this totally avoidable situation that ended in pointless tragedy. Why? Because just like the old saying goes: "Even a fool knows enough to come in from the rain." You hike up a mountain December 26th in a rain storm and keep going you turn into a Popsicle - not really a shocker. How folks are still head scratching on this one is beyond me.
Because apparently he did have the training, he did have the skills (and Eagle Scout that hiked frequently) what we don't know is what he had with him...and ultimately what we may never know is what did he do with said skills, experience, and gear.
I think it matters. If it started raining early and he kept going instead of turning around, really poor decision, especially if he didn't put on wet weather clothing to stay dry, or if he had on too much that he was sweating under his layers. If it started raining after he was nearly back to the TH, then questions as to why/how hypothermia set in so quick might have different answers.
Per the article cited in the opening post -- they found Jack's body near on or near Bondcliff, ie. as far from the trailhead as one can be.
22 mile hike in the winter in the White Mountains, alone above treeline at 4500 feet, on the shortest day of the year. What could go wrong?
The weather, as described in the Globe article, was perfectly awful. I really don't know if there's anything in my kit that could withstand those conditions for long. So yeah, I'd have been at risk up there, just like Jack was.
I've stood on that ridge several times. In summer. Many different ways in, all of them long. More often than not, it's day two of a three-day hike. It's really the heart of the Pemi. Awesome views, very exposed.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 00:26
Because apparently he did have the training, he did have the skills (and Eagle Scout that hiked frequently) what we don't know is what he had with him...and ultimately what we may never know is what did he do with said skills, experience, and gear.
Look, I'm going to ask an indelicate question here, but somebody has to: If he was so good - how come he's so dead? Experience and training mean you don't get out of the car at the trail head. You take one look up and go: nah. If he knew what he was doing he'd of successfully assessed the risks, and made the decision that would have saved his life. Nothing about any of this speaks of training or experience to me - it says the opposite. Discretion is the better part of valor.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 00:33
And, what do you need to know about his gear? Whatever he had wasn't enough. Whatever he had wasn't deployed in such a way as to save him, or wasn't there in the first place. Again, missing the skills and experiences required. Probably the gear too.
rocketsocks
01-01-2017, 02:04
Look, I'm going to ask an indelicate question here, but somebody has to: If he was so good - how come he's so dead? Experience and training mean you don't get out of the car at the trail head. You take one look up and go: nah. If he knew what he was doing he'd of successfully assessed the risks, and made the decision that would have saved his life. Nothing about any of this speaks of training or experience to me - it says the opposite. Discretion is the better part of valor.
And, what do you need to know about his gear? Whatever he had wasn't enough. Whatever he had wasn't deployed in such a way as to save him, or wasn't there in the first place. Again, missing the skills and experiences required. Probably the gear too.Im with ya, makes no sense to me...something is missing about this story. Could be as simple as he disregarded his training, or he may have had medical emergency, we just don't know yet.
rocketsocks
01-01-2017, 02:08
I try not to get to worked up about story's like these in the preliminary stage of investigation, not enough information out yet, so all this really is speculation.
Sarcasm the elf
01-01-2017, 02:19
I try not to get to worked up about story's like these in the preliminary stage of investigation, not enough information out yet, so all this really is speculation.
Not the mention the fact that this is a public forum and it's entirely likely that friends or family of the deceased will see these comments (as has happened before). Personally I'll hold off on armchair quarterback comments until the professionals who investigate release a full report
rocketsocks
01-01-2017, 02:31
Not the mention the fact that this is a public forum and it's entirely likely that friends or family of the deceased will see these comments (as has happened before). Personally I'll hold off on armchair quarterback comments until the professionals who investigate release a full reportyup, but like the Largay story, were 90 pages in, much has been said and the genie is long outta the bottle...it is what it is.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 02:47
Yeah. What get's me fired up is the very real threat of over-regulation and accompanying fees. That the folly of others has consequences for the rest of us. I also am tired of the wide spread subscription to peculiar notions - like going up into the Whites on the shortest day of the year in a winter storm is perfectly acceptable behavior AND THEN there was an accident. That mishaps befell these many folks. There's not really that much to speculate on. My old pal Leslie the "Llama" had a huge old volume called "Death in the Whites" I think the title was. It was a record of tragedy in the mountains there clear back to the colonial age. What do they all have in common? They were good people who went someplace they shouldn't, when they shouldn't be there, often alone, without what they needed - including equipment, real experience, training, common sense, and most importantly respect, and they paid for it with their lives. Completing a thru-hike makes you an experienced thru-hiker - NOT an experienced survivalist. As a wise man once said the former "Is just walking" the latter, another business entirely. As far as I'm concerned every biped that walks upright is an "experienced hiker" so it's about time we relegate that term to the heap, as it is so vague as to be useless. The same could be said of any kid who grew up walking around all summer and camping in their parent's back yard, it don't make you Bear Grylls. And winning a soapbox derby is a skill useless on a mountain. Happy New Year!
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 03:16
Not the mention the fact that this is a public forum and it's entirely likely that friends or family of the deceased will see these comments (as has happened before). Personally I'll hold off on armchair quarterback comments until the professionals who investigate release a full report
Really? The public should honestly share the truth, and their feelings about the truth. We are expected to remain silent because we might be heard? Come on. You think his family is trolling WB looking for answers? A team of experts is going to tell us what? Yetis exist and they're hunting solo winter hikers in the Whites? We should yell: "Don't do this!" from the rooftops, and then just maybe this cats death will mean something if it stops one other kid from making the same mistake. The mistake being hiking alone in a winter storm in the White Mountains on the shortest day of the year with not enough stuff to survive. These points are not in dispute. It's only the like all the most ill advised moves a hiker could possibly make, and everybody knows this. And everybody knows why.
Armchair quarterbacking? Seriously? This is a opinion driven hiking forum for hikers. Is there another topic more important than how not to get tragically killed while doing what we love?
Could have been me at 26.
My prayers go to his soul and family.
Puddlefish
01-01-2017, 09:27
Yeah. What get's me fired up is the very real threat of over-regulation and accompanying fees.
See, now you're just politicizing it to fit it into your own world view. We get it, you feel put upon and down trodden and the man is out to get you. Just the threat of regulation makes you insecure and boils your blood.
I've lived in NH most of my life, and never once felt threatened that the various agencies that maintain the forest were over regulating anything.
Tundracamper
01-01-2017, 10:40
How many experience climbers die every year on Everest. It only takes erring in one small decision that can affect the entire outcome. Doesn't that mimic life?
Tipi Walter
01-01-2017, 10:54
Look, I'm going to ask an indelicate question here, but somebody has to: If he was so good - how come he's so dead? Experience and training mean you don't get out of the car at the trail head. You take one look up and go: nah. If he knew what he was doing he'd of successfully assessed the risks, and made the decision that would have saved his life. Nothing about any of this speaks of training or experience to me - it says the opposite. Discretion is the better part of valor.
Your post reminds me of the Green Beret Creed, in part---
My goal is to succeed in any mission
- and live to succeed again.
I always think of this wonderful Pledge (part of a much longer creed) and how well it applies not only to soldiers and Marines and SF-types but also to outdoorsmen and backpackers. We go out in nature for long periods of time (the mission) and we wake up on the last day to come home to prepare for the next trip. We do everything in our power to live to go out again. There's fighting, and then there's fighting smart---just like there's just Hiking and then there's Hiking Smart.
MuddyWaters
01-01-2017, 11:01
Discretion is the better part of valor.
discretion is the better part of staying alive.
Vast majority of hikers and outdoors people are not experts at staying alive. They are just lucky to have never been seriously tested. Part of the lure of doing things in mountains IS that there is some risk involved. Mitigating all of it, is not possible. Focusing on whats most important, and when, ..comes from experience or intellect.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 14:01
See, now you're just politicizing it to fit it into your own world view. We get it, you feel put upon and down trodden and the man is out to get you. Just the threat of regulation makes you insecure and boils your blood.
I've lived in NH most of my life, and never once felt threatened that the various agencies that maintain the forest were over regulating anything.
Well, as long as you're okay. I hiked through the Smokies in 2012 and 13 and it was free. Today it's not - it's $20 to hike through. $4 bucks a night to stay at a shelter, but as you are likely aware we're talking about Tennessee NOT Live free or Die New Hampshire. So what? It is an example of EXACTLY what I'm talking about. One of the best and most unique wildernesses in the country made into a real drag by real over-regulation due to overuse and folks being as stupid as they feel they have a right to be. The go to solution for bureaucratic nabobs is to slap a fee on it, and to get some under-qualified apparatchik puffed up with a uniform and a badge to collect them. I'm not politicizing anything, and my world view is I don't care to have the cantankerous old ridge runner follow me around the park to make sure I'm doing it right while regaling me with tales of other idiots he's had to herd through the park. Which is a completely true story by the way. Lets just imagine that some folks go hiking specifically to be left alone - not for the wonderful dialogue and constant social interaction.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 14:08
37724 Welcome to the White Mountains!
Lets just imagine that some folks go hiking specifically to be left alone - not for the wonderful dialogue and constant social interaction.
Says the most prolific poster on this and other equally contentious threads.
This young man went out of his way to avoid the most popular trails. This has nothing, zilch to do with overzealous rangers or shelter fees. He was in deep backcountry when he died. Ed Abbey would have called it a proud death. So tell me again, was it his right to die out there, or not?
I find myself in sympathy with the victim, to some extent. This was tragic. At his age I did some fairly reckless things that I survived at least partly by luck. I don't think he was a showboat or death seeker. I know the trail he was on, that kinda makes it personal.
LMFAO! Only that kind of omnipotence and omniscience could come from beyond the grave! Seriously laughing so hard I have to tinkle a little. Any word on what this poor dead kid had with him - and not with him? I'm guessing no poles or crampons. I've got to go back and read the whole thread - fortunately there's lots of meteorological winter left! Thank you Walter, for making peeking out my tent fly at the planet Hoth funny again!
Wrong, the article says he had crampons.
No mention of poles, but 99% of White Mountain winter hikers use them, and I'd be amazed if Jack didn't. Yeah, I know you've got a thing about hiking poles.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 15:12
[QUOTE=rafe;2115517]Says the most prolific poster on this and other equally contentious threads.
Right. (You've used that line before. Prolificacy and contentiousness are completely irrelevant, or did you want to have a short benign conversation about nothing much in particular?) But, I'm not out hiking now am I? I'm snug in my hole waiting for meteorological winter to end, marveling at the willingness of my fellow trolls to advocate for even the most ignorant on trail behaviors yet again. Okay, he wasn't on trail BFD - his death in the Whites impacts everyone who will follow him necessarily - you're right it does make it kinda personal. I get a kick out of the folks trying to convince us that going out and getting killed is the zenith of American freedom, and the penultimate demonstration of passionate outdoorsmanship. "Proud death." Said the man who died quietly at home flat on his back with his boots OFF. Cut it out. "The dead know one thing: that it is better to be alive."
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 15:24
Wrong, the article says he had crampons.
No mention of poles, but 99% of White Mountain winter hikers use them, and I'd be amazed if Jack didn't. Yeah, I know you've got a thing about hiking poles.
My thing is, while realizing that correlations are not causal, I'm conducting an informal poll on poles. And I'm wondering if you noticed that it appears that the last half dozen "experienced" hikers we've heard about all dying by misadventure have something oddly in common? They almost all seem to be pole shunners. In the case of "Sherpa" it seemed to be a source of pride as his missing information on this site's homepage says: "No trekking poles - he doesn't use them." As if to say that under no circumstances would he deign to pick up sticks because for some reason he'd transcended the hiking aid now found so useful by 99% of long distance hikers.
But Holden had proper equipment: winter hiking pants, a head lamp, crampons, layers and layers of fleece, a puffy jacket, the shell jacket rescuers would later find he had put on upside down.
Like most of these situations it's about decision making. He had the gear, he had the skills, but for some reason he didn't take the time to act. I'm confident he could have been plenty warm if he'd piled on the fleece and put on his rain jacket before he was cold and wet.
I am a huge believer in peeling clothing before I'm sweated up, and in adding clothing before I'm cold.
ScareBear
01-01-2017, 16:48
See, now you're just politicizing it to fit it into your own world view. We get it, you feel put upon and down trodden and the man is out to get you. Just the threat of regulation makes you insecure and boils your blood.
I've lived in NH most of my life, and never once felt threatened that the various agencies that maintain the forest were over regulating anything.
What's it say on NH license plates?
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 17:04
What's it say on NH license plates?
It's says eight six seven five three oh nine. Why?
Puddlefish
01-01-2017, 17:14
What's it say on NH license plates?
Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils. It's likely stolen from a French Revolutionary phrase. It's about not living in slavery, it's not about do whatever the hell you want without regard for your fellow citizens.
My point is that nothing in NH forest regulations is remotely pertinent to this death.
Puddlefish
01-01-2017, 17:26
Well, as long as you're okay. I hiked through the Smokies in 2012 and 13 and it was free. Today it's not - it's $20 to hike through. $4 bucks a night to stay at a shelter, but as you are likely aware we're talking about Tennessee NOT Live free or Die New Hampshire. So what? It is an example of EXACTLY what I'm talking about. One of the best and most unique wildernesses in the country made into a real drag by real over-regulation due to overuse and folks being as stupid as they feel they have a right to be. The go to solution for bureaucratic nabobs is to slap a fee on it, and to get some under-qualified apparatchik puffed up with a uniform and a badge to collect them. I'm not politicizing anything, and my world view is I don't care to have the cantankerous old ridge runner follow me around the park to make sure I'm doing it right while regaling me with tales of other idiots he's had to herd through the park. Which is a completely true story by the way. Lets just imagine that some folks go hiking specifically to be left alone - not for the wonderful dialogue and constant social interaction.
Again, you seem to feel the need to make this about you. We get it, rules are bad when they inconvenience you in the slightest tiny bit. Still completely irrelevant to this thread.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 17:28
Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils. It's likely stolen from a French Revolutionary phrase. It's about not living in slavery, it's not about do whatever the hell you want without regard for your fellow citizens.
My point is that nothing in NH forest regulations is remotely pertinent to this death.
While I agree completely with the first, I take issue with the second point here as I think the NH forest regulation which says on the sign "TURN BACK NOW IF THE WEATHER IS BAD." is completely pertinent to his death. (See posted previously.)
MuddyWaters
01-01-2017, 17:30
But Holden had proper equipment: winter hiking pants, a head lamp, crampons, layers and layers of fleece, a puffy jacket, the shell jacket rescuers would later find he had put on upside down.
Like most of these situations it's about decision making. He had the gear, he had the skills, but for some reason he didn't take the time to act. I'm confident he could have been plenty warm if he'd piled on the fleece and put on his rain jacket before he was cold and wet.
I am a huge believer in peeling clothing before I'm sweated up, and in adding clothing before I'm cold.
+
people die with proper equipment all the time.
Take Everest for instance
Poor decisions can offset "proper" equipment.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 17:38
Again, you seem to feel the need to make this about you. We get it, rules are bad when they inconvenience you in the slightest tiny bit. Still completely irrelevant to this thread.
Actually, this site is about my opinion. We're not standing in the queue at his wake dude. And, I think if you re-read the thread my opinion is manifestly relevant here. Sorry you don't agree. No, actually I'm not. I happen to think if you are looking to get killed then you should do it in private, and not imperil your would-be-rescuers, or traumatize the 6 or 8 good folks who have to carry your body out of a place specifically set aside for the rest of us to enjoy. Not to mention your family, and your community. This affects us all. Moving on.
Tipi Walter
01-01-2017, 17:40
He was in deep backcountry when he died. Ed Abbey would have called it a proud death. So tell me again, was it his right to die out there, or not?
Of course it was his right to die out there because any activity we have the right to engage in can result in death. Thousands of people die in car wrecks because they have the right to drive on the highways. Do they therefore have the right to die? It goes with the activity. Beyond this there is suicide.
Study the case of Guy Waterman.
"Mr. Waterman climbed to the top of Mt Lafayette, a 5,249 peak in the White Mountains in northern New Hampshire, and sat down to die in below-zero temperatures." New York Times.
But Holden had proper equipment: winter hiking pants, a head lamp, crampons, layers and layers of fleece, a puffy jacket, the shell jacket rescuers would later find he had put on upside down.
Like most of these situations it's about decision making. He had the gear, . . . . .
But no, he did not have the gear to spend the night. He did not have the proper equipment. Please read PennyPincher's post below.
Wow. I never have dayhiked in the Whites without being prepared to spend a night in case I got in trouble.
Exactly. Repeat this 44 times.
it does not take much more than the day hiker already carries:
shelter - little more than a pound for a practical bivy
foam pad - from about 8 oz
bag - the critical item to extend your life by minimizing energy expenditure - a good 3 lb down bag for about 0 or 4 lb for -20
if you meter out the snacks that you carry, 10+ days in cold conditions is realistic - during the 900 day siege of Lenningrad the daily ration toward the end was less than 100 calories, many perished but many made it
I wish all the posters here would read this post and the other post by PennyPincher. Bring a shelter, a pad and a bag. Prepare to camp where you stand. Holden did not have this gear.
[QUOTE=rafe;2115517]I get a kick out of the folks trying to convince us that going out and getting killed is the zenith of American freedom, and the penultimate demonstration of passionate outdoorsmanship. "Proud death." Said the man who died quietly at home flat on his back with his boots OFF. Cut it out. "The dead know one thing: that it is better to be alive."
It's difficult to know what the dead are thinking but there are many cases of life-after-death experiences but this is another subject.
It's not the freedom to get killed which is important, but the freedom to engage in an activity which may result in our deaths---this is what we are discussing. Most any activity we love to do can kill us. In fact, what we love will kill us, eventually. The alcoholic who loves booze dies from liver cancer. The smoker who loves tobacco etc. The warrior who loves war is killed in combat. The wing suit guy who loves flying dies against a rock. The guy who loves hiking may very well die on a hike. Love is about passion and with passion comes both life and death.
"He died doing what he loved" may not mean that he loved dying, only that he died doing something he loved.
Puddlefish
01-01-2017, 17:48
Actually, this site is about my opinion. We're not standing in the queue at his wake dude. And, I think if you re-read the thread my opinion is manifestly relevant here. Sorry you don't agree. No, actually I'm not. I happen to think if you are looking to get killed then you should do it in private, and not imperil your would-be-rescuers, or traumatize the 6 or 8 good folks who have to carry your body out of a place specifically set aside for the rest of us to enjoy. Not to mention your family, and your community. This affects us all. Moving on.
You're making no sense. You commented on NH regulations initially as if they were bad. Then you told a story about how regulations made you personally sad. Then you posted a picture of a sign, and suddenly NH regulations were good. Which is it?
I don't care the slightest bit what your other opinions may be, that's why I didn't comment on any of them. If you're going to slam perfectly reasonable NH regulations, or just rant about how the world is out to get you personally, maybe you should start your own thread?
Tipi Walter
01-01-2017, 17:48
+
people die with proper equipment all the time.
Take Everest for instance
Poor decisions can offset "proper" equipment.
But the equipment alpine mountaineers carry save thousands of their lives per year, and their proper equipment keeps thousands of them alive in terrible conditions. They must have crampons and tents and down suits and stoves to melt snow for water and of course jumars and ropes and ice axes. Gear and equipment is vital for them, no doubt about it. And when they are caught in epic storms, where do they go if they can? Back to their equipment and tents and bags.
What kills most mountaineers is not what killed Holden. They die from crevasses, avalanches, falling ice and rock, bad rope technique, 100mph wind storms at -20F, inability to move due to either frostbite or cerebral or pulmonary edema.
As PennyPincher mentioned, "I have never dayhiked in the Whites without being prepared to spend a night in case I got in trouble." Amen, end of story.
Slo-go'en
01-01-2017, 18:05
You're making no sense. You commented on NH regulations initially as if they were bad. Then you told a story about how regulations made you personally sad. Then you posted a picture of a sign, and suddenly NH regulations were good. Which is it?
Actually, the "worst weather in America" sign is more of a warning sign and offers advice. Of course, the penalty of ignoring that advice could be death.
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 18:13
You're making no sense. You commented on NH regulations initially as if they were bad. Then you told a story about how regulations made you personally sad. Then you posted a picture of a sign, and suddenly NH regulations were good. Which is it?
I don't care the slightest bit what your other opinions may be, that's why I didn't comment on any of them. If you're going to slam perfectly reasonable NH regulations, or just rant about how the world is out to get you personally, maybe you should start your own thread?
That's actually not what happened at all. And, I'm making sense. Now you're just being argumentative for arguments sake. Talk about irrelevant. Stop obfuscating the facts with useless noise and minutia. Just so we're clear - if you walk by the previously posted NH sign and ignore it and die it's not a shocker, okay? If you die needlessly, pointlessly, and tragically in a completely avoidable manner where it can't help but negatively affect hundreds of others - we're going to talk about you after you're gone. l find the "noble death" platitudes ridiculous. I've got a picture around here somewhere of the tree which nearly crushed my tent at Olallie Lake Oregon. Had it come eight more inches south it would have crushed my skull like a November pumpkin. That's an unavoidable force majeure, and I would have died in a tragic hiking accident doing what I love, no not snoring. Nothing noble about it. I'm very pleased to still be here BTW. Diving head first into a shark tank, while some do love it, is an entirely different situation. Because not only is it completely avoidable, but we don't need a team of experts to ferret out what went wrong when you don't climb back out again. Think that's cool? Okay - whatever flips your nightie! It maybe time to talk to someone.
FreeGoldRush
01-01-2017, 18:29
See, now you're just politicizing it to fit it into your own world view. We get it, you feel put upon and down trodden and the man is out to get you. Just the threat of regulation makes you insecure and boils your blood.
I've lived in NH most of my life, and never once felt threatened that the various agencies that maintain the forest were over regulating anything.
You did not direct this comment at me, but you haven't read too much history, have you? Dismissing concerns about government regulation as nothing more than paranoia is incredibly naive. It is also very dismissive of tremendous suffering that has taken place throughout world history. Characterizing that concern as "politicizing" shows that you are good at repeating words you have heard on TV news entertainment. And I hate to crush your feelings, but since you chose to use your own feelings as support for your argument, I will add that your feelings don't change history. It is what it is.
Secondmouse
01-01-2017, 18:38
You know what? Enough is enough. You don't need any training or experience for this totally avoidable situation that ended in pointless tragedy. Why? Because just like the old saying goes: "Even a fool knows enough to come in from the rain." You hike up a mountain December 26th in a rain storm and keep going you turn into a Popsicle - not really a shocker. How folks are still head scratching on this one is beyond me.
you know what? the more I read of what you write the more you look like you don't have much experience at all...
Secondmouse
01-01-2017, 19:01
Im with ya, makes no sense to me...something is missing about this story. Could be as simple as he disregarded his training, or he may have had medical emergency, we just don't know yet.
one of the conditions of hypothermia is impaired mental function, cognition, decision making. he may have disregarded his training about how to recognize the onset of these symptoms until it was too late. someone mentioned that he was found with his shell on upside down?
if he had proper training he should have been able to recognize the onset of his symptoms and taken remedial action. but simply knowing how to do something does not equal being able to actually do it. it takes practice (experience) to pull off even simple tasks under anything less than ideal conditions. it's shocking how many people find it difficult to light a simple campfire on a dry sunny day, let alone attempt it in the rain with large muscle tremors...
anyone who wants to get an idea the difficulty, try the man-in-the-creek drill I wrote about above. a lot of so-called u-tube survival experts fail this challenge with stunning regularity...
pilgrimskywheel
01-01-2017, 19:22
you know what? the more I read of what you write the more you look like you don't have much experience at all...
Yeah, okay. 2 Outward Bound courses ages 16 & 17 Voyageur School MN, Hurricane Island School ME. US Navy Sea Cadet ages 12-17 Naval Air Station SOWEY. I did Coast Guard Basic at 16 - Cape May NJ. United States Army Airborne, (13F1P & 19B Forward Observer and Combat Medic) Sergeant type one each OD green - eleven years. Honorably discharged 2004. FT11 AT12,13 TXNST13 PCT14 CDT15,16 AT Sections 14,15,16 and now I'm still messing with the CDT in sections. Just for giggles: I got my degree in psychology on the GI Bill after I opened the first boot camp for juvenile delinquents in MA, where I was the Senior Drill Instructor of the wilderness based Project Adventure program and training school. I trained squads of teenage killers how to, among other skills, climb and work as a team member while surviving in the back country of a 100,000 square acre forest. So actually I'm a highly trained and tested expert in ocean and wilderness survival, and in training kids and young soldiers how to do it too.
To remain on topic. This was a preventable death. Sad but true. I see only the absence of training and experience here, along with not enough equipment or a lack of ability to deploy effectively what equipment the young man may have had. How do I know well, have I passed the voir dire, or should I continue?
22 miles in Winter is a really long day. Im wondering if he was already exhausted and/or dehydrated when he came out above treeline again. No reserves and probably wasn't thinking too clearly when he was exposed to the wind. He probably couldnt warm up, or stay warm enough, at that point.
I too, wont hike in the Whites in Winter without the ability to shelter in place and stay warm and dry. That decision is made before I ever pack a bag or leave the house. For me, the risk is too great, the reward is too small. I won't go above treeline when the wind is forecasted to be above 70mph. I dont like getting knocked off my feet. Im actually afraid of dying, so I minimize the risks while still enjoying being outside. The Pemi loop is actually on my bucket list. I'll pick a date and time when the risk is low.
I guess getting older does teach one to weigh risks more than someone who is younger. I read somewhere, once, that the older you get, the more likely that you will live to get older. Your risk of dying is reduced. It seems counter-intuitive at first, but the more you think about it, the more it makes sense. The risk of a 20 year old dying is greater than a 40 year old. The 40 year old is more at risk of dying than a 60 year old, and so on.
imscotty
01-01-2017, 23:50
Remember... the 'Ignore' button is your friend.
37752
pilgrimskywheel
01-02-2017, 00:00
Remember... the 'Ignore' button is your friend.
37752 Exactly. There's another country heard from. Did you have something to contribute to the thread? We've been discussing the pointless and tragic death of a young hiker in the Whites and it's potential ramifications, before we were brought back around to issue of real import like off-topic snarkiness and judgy name calling.
pilgrimskywheel
01-02-2017, 00:07
Ooops, sorry about that typo - I meant to say "...issues of real import like snarkiness and judgy name calling." Thank you.
Alligator
01-02-2017, 00:32
Consider this thought experiment. Suppose a really experienced hiker makes the correct decision 99 times out of a hundred. And we'll get back to that number at the end, so just accept it for the moment. Now, one particular day, our hypothetical hiker is faced with three important decisions.
1. Deciding to put on inclement weather clothing at the right time.
2. Providing the body with enough calories.
3. Correctly judging the day's mileage.
The experienced hiker can now get decisions 1-3 correct or not (we'll have to state independently here, it's important mathematically but not a deal breaker.) What I want to focus on is the case where the experienced hiker unfortunately gets all 3 wrong. That combination has probability of happening 0.01x0.01x0.01=0.000001 or one in a million.
A series of small mistakes can place even an experienced hiker in critical jeopardy. This is what egible says in the first paragraph not his post above. Further, if you lower the probability each decision is correct, being completely incorrect becomes more likely. Go with 90% correct, then the experienced hiker is totally wrong 0.1x0.1x0.1=0.001 or one in a thousand. Also, I stated the decisions were independent. Not enough calories, the brain makes poorer decisions, misjudges hiking time and distance and/or decisions about say putting on your rain gear or a hat, warm layers. Again the probability of making all 3 incorrectly becomes more likely.
Be vigilant for hypothermia, the brain stops working properly. You get the umbles.
Sad to hear of a fellow outdoors person passing. It may have been as simple as not keeping himself fueled properly throughout the hike. It's pretty early to come to any reasonable conclusions though. From the report of the jacket being on upside, that points to fuzzy thinking and could easily have been hypothermia. Sure most people know hypothermia is the inability to maintain your core temperature, but how one ends up in that state can be the result of several to many different pathways.
Try to assess your risks properly folks and be careful in the wet and the cold.
rocketsocks
01-02-2017, 00:43
Consider this thought experiment. Suppose a really experienced hiker makes the correct decision 99 times out of a hundred. And we'll get back to that number at the end, so just accept it for the moment. Now, one particular day, our hypothetical hiker is faced with three important decisions.
1. Deciding to put on inclement weather clothing at the right time.
2. Providing the body with enough calories.
3. Correctly judging the day's mileage.
The experienced hiker can now get decisions 1-3 correct or not (we'll have to state independently here, it's important mathematically but not a deal breaker.) What I want to focus on is the case where the experienced hiker unfortunately gets all 3 wrong. That combination has probability of happening 0.01x0.01x0.01=0.000001 or one in a million.
A series of small mistakes can place even an experienced hiker in critical jeopardy. This is what egible says in the first paragraph not his post above. Further, if you lower the probability each decision is correct, being completely incorrect becomes more likely. Go with 90% correct, then the experienced hiker is totally wrong 0.1x0.1x0.1=0.001 or one in a thousand. Also, I stated the decisions were independent. Not enough calories, the brain makes poorer decisions, misjudges hiking time and distance and/or decisions about say putting on your rain gear or a hat, warm layers. Again the probability of making all 3 incorrectly becomes more likely.
Be vigilant for hypothermia, the brain stops working properly. You get the umbles.
Sad to hear of a fellow outdoors person passing. It may have been as simple as not keeping himself fueled properly throughout the hike. It's pretty early to come to any reasonable conclusions though. From the report of the jacket being on upside, that points to fuzzy thinking and could easily have been hypothermia. Sure most people know hypothermia is the inability to maintain your core temperature, but how one ends up in that state can be the result of several to many different pathways.
Try to assess your risks properly folks and be careful in the wet and the cold.after re-reading this thread and looking through all the non ease tail stuff, that makes total sense to me and something I can take away and apply...one poor decision may lead to another and compound the situation further. Thanks
This is the analogy we liked to use with students at the fire academy:
37753
"The Swiss cheese model of accident causation illustrates that, although many layers of defense lie between hazards and accidents, there are flaws in each layer that, if aligned, can allow the accident to occur."
Another model used links in the chain which requires a decision to break any link, thus ending the accident chain.
As Alligator very aptly described, every decision leads to the next, and sometimes the end consequences aren't as clear for the person involved as they are for us, given the benefit of reflection. Especially when the same decisions have led to a positive outcome in the past, simply because "the cheese didn't line up that time."
Traveler
01-02-2017, 06:47
Try to assess your risks properly folks and be careful in the wet and the cold.
Excellent. While there is the primary cause of an incident its usually the smaller contributing causes that make it more severe. The chain of events leading to accidents and/or death can be broken if one is aware there is a chain being made. Have a plan to deal with that potential if you are alone and be alert for it in others if you are not.
T.S.Kobzol
01-02-2017, 08:07
I have done that route a few weeks before although I did spend a night near Mt Galehead. I went from Linccoln Woods to 13 falls and then up to Galehead. I pitched my tent on snow around 5pm, made dinner and slept through a snowstorm. Next day I broke the trail up South Twin. I was to meet a friend there who was finishing the Grid (for the second time).
I was early so I continued on. Our agreement was that he would catch up with me since he wasn't carrying overnight gear.
I continued breaking trail over the remaining peaks of Guyot, the Bonds... I haven't seen anyone. Got into some fierce winds and a snow storm on the way down from Bond to Bondcliff...the spot where this young man perished will now be associated with my memory of my hike.
I was worried about my friend not catching up with me yet and the winds when I would at times use all my strength to stay upright.
Luckily my buddy caught up with me by the river down from Bondcliff. I was wery happy to see him.
My mileage for that day was less than 22 miles but the remaining few miles are a slow if you are exhausted.
T.S.Kobzol
01-02-2017, 08:08
Slow=slog
Sorry for the typo.
Consider this thought experiment. Suppose a really experienced hiker makes the correct decision 99 times out of a hundred. And we'll get back to that number at the end, so just accept it for the moment. Now, one particular day, our hypothetical hiker is faced with three important decisions.
1. Deciding to put on inclement weather clothing at the right time.
2. Providing the body with enough calories.
3. Correctly judging the day's mileage.
The experienced hiker can now get decisions 1-3 correct or not (we'll have to state independently here, it's important mathematically but not a deal breaker.) What I want to focus on is the case where the experienced hiker unfortunately gets all 3 wrong. That combination has probability of happening 0.01x0.01x0.01=0.000001 or one in a million.
A series of small mistakes can place even an experienced hiker in critical jeopardy. This is what egible says in the first paragraph not his post above. Further, if you lower the probability each decision is correct, being completely incorrect becomes more likely. Go with 90% correct, then the experienced hiker is totally wrong 0.1x0.1x0.1=0.001 or one in a thousand. Also, I stated the decisions were independent. Not enough calories, the brain makes poorer decisions, misjudges hiking time and distance and/or decisions about say putting on your rain gear or a hat, warm layers. Again the probability of making all 3 incorrectly becomes more likely.
Be vigilant for hypothermia, the brain stops working properly. You get the umbles.
Sad to hear of a fellow outdoors person passing. It may have been as simple as not keeping himself fueled properly throughout the hike. It's pretty early to come to any reasonable conclusions though. From the report of the jacket being on upside, that points to fuzzy thinking and could easily have been hypothermia. Sure most people know hypothermia is the inability to maintain your core temperature, but how one ends up in that state can be the result of several to many different pathways.
Try to assess your risks properly folks and be careful in the wet and the cold.
Exactly. What almost every tragedy of this nature has in common is a series of bad judgments. One need not know all of the details of this particular incident to recognize some of those bad judgment, given the conditions.
JohnHuth
01-02-2017, 11:00
I'm a bicycle commuter, a sea kayaker, and a backpacker/hiker. As much as I hate to read about tragedies like this, I force myself to, trying to see if I can glean another nugget that I can use to bolster my defenses.
The two or three items that come to mind are - a) the length of the hike, b) the temperature and rain conditions, and c) the possibility that he was fairly thin (looks like it in the photo). Although we (I) don't think of 35 degrees as cold, with rain and wind blowing, it can be the worst of the worst - absolutely miserable - it drains the heat right out of you.
As others have mentioned, cold related problems can sneak in very fast. Thermal management can seem like a hassle until it's too late - think - moving slower, but never stopping and achieve an equilibrium where you aren't sweating, but still generating heat.
So sad to read these accounts.
ScareBear
01-02-2017, 11:48
Exactly. What almost every tragedy of this nature has in common is a series of bad judgments. One need not know all of the details of this particular incident to recognize some of those bad judgment, given the conditions.
In Alligator's hypothetical, all it took for me was to f up #1. Now I do agree that #2 and #3 might have something to play in many scenarios, but they had nothing to do with mine. There was no real series of bad judgments. No chain of bad judgments. No lining up of cheese holes.
I ScrewedThePooch(tm) by making a fully conscious decision that was not influenced by improper caloric intake or errors in pathfinding skills(I knew exactly how far I had to go, both vertically and horizontally). The initial poor decision could have been reversed at any time during the two mile climb. As I posted, with all my winter backcountry experience, I had never played chicken with hypothermia. Never even let myself get close, because I knew the consequences. I had seen it up close. But, I allowed myself to lull myself into a false sense of security by poor rationalization of a poor decision. As long as I was in forced march mode, I was warm. The only error, other than the continuing one of failing to don rain gear, was the failure to appreciate the temperature drop v. time and the direction and speed of the wind at the top. But, it was always the failure to don rain gear that doomed me. I didn't don it until it was too late. I didn't realize it was too late, because I failed to appreciate the immediate effect of the wind and 10 degree temperature drop once I cleared the woods and peaked. I actually recall saying out loud as I fumbled with the buckle on the pocket where the tent was "Oh, F--K, I'm in it now!" My mind was still clear and had not progressed to panic mode, although it was racing!
All it took was getting wet from an initial poor decision that persisted all the way to the top, when it was too late due to meteo conditions. Running back into the woods was as smart a move as I can figure, looking back on it today. Getting out of much of the wind reduced much of the tragedy, but would not have ended it, successfully, without the additional action that was taken...
You were not hiking alone, though, correct? Chain was broken right there. The swiss cheese holes didn't line up. I tend to look at rain gear as not so much keeping me dry, but keeping me warm. You were lucky someone else was there or you would have completed the chain and died. You kept hiking when you should have stopped. You got above tree line, exposed to the elements without stopping and prparing for the wind. There was a series of bad decisions made before you ever got to the point of no return.
Are you going to put yourself in that position again?
ScareBear
01-02-2017, 12:40
You are correct, I had a TrailPartner(tm).
However, I had a couple of other options and I do think Plan B had a high probability of success. Plan C was just to descend as rapidly as possible and try to outrun it. Plan C had a significantly lower probability of success, as I would have bonked, calorie wise. Plan D would have been to stay put, but without a TrailPartner(tm) the likelihood of success was near zero.
No more false sense of security. If it is raining and I am ascending, even on the AT, I will don rain gear.
Tipi Walter
01-02-2017, 12:43
I too, wont hike in the Whites in Winter without the ability to shelter in place and stay warm and dry. That decision is made before I ever pack a bag or leave the house. For me, the risk is too great, the reward is too small.
My point all along in this thread. Put another check in the Gear column.
I ScrewedThePooch(tm) by making a fully conscious decision that was not influenced by improper caloric intake or errors in pathfinding skills(I knew exactly how far I had to go, both vertically and horizontally). The initial poor decision could have been reversed at any time during the two mile climb. As I posted, with all my winter backcountry experience, I had never played chicken with hypothermia. Never even let myself get close, because I knew the consequences. I had seen it up close. But, I allowed myself to lull myself into a false sense of security by poor rationalization of a poor decision. As long as I was in forced march mode, I was warm. The only error, other than the continuing one of failing to don rain gear, was the failure to appreciate the temperature drop v. time and the direction and speed of the wind at the top. But, it was always the failure to don rain gear that doomed me. I didn't don it until it was too late. I didn't realize it was too late, because I failed to appreciate the immediate effect of the wind and 10 degree temperature drop once I cleared the woods and peaked. I actually recall saying out loud as I fumbled with the buckle on the pocket where the tent was "Oh, F--K, I'm in it now!" My mind was still clear and had not progressed to panic mode, although it was racing!
All it took was getting wet from an initial poor decision that persisted all the way to the top, when it was too late due to meteo conditions. Running back into the woods was as smart a move as I can figure, looking back on it today. Getting out of much of the wind reduced much of the tragedy, but would not have ended it, successfully, without the additional action that was taken...
But you had a shelter which in part saved your butt. Failure to don rain gear didn't exactly doom you as here you are posting on this forum. Your trail partner set up your shelter and got you in it---therefore Un-doomed. My question is, what if your trail partner and you had no decent gear like a shelter??
Think about the Dayhiker's Mindset---Without a shelter on their back a dayhiker in bad conditions can only survive by hiking out to his car. This one reality in my opinion causes him to overextend and push on (and backtrack)---with a sliding scale downward of debilitating symptoms. Perhaps a John Muir-type or a Jim Bridger could hole up under a rock overhang and start a fire and get thru the night to see the next day. Then again, a Jim Bridger-type would have everything he needed to spend the night.
ScareBear
01-02-2017, 13:01
True. And, even alone, Plan B had a high probability of succeeding. I believe I could have gorilla'd the tent bag out of the shove-it, although it might have damaged the pocket, but who cares? Then got the fly out and rolled up in it like a bug in a rug. I recall my brother telling the tale of tarp-ing somewhere in MA and eventually had to drop the tarp and roll up in it to make it to sunrise...
JumpMaster Blaster
01-02-2017, 13:07
In this particular instance a young man, very familiar with the trail and mountains he was in, ended up falling victim to hypothermia. Whether this was due to the lack of overnight gear or not is really not the debate. There have been many instances like this one where hikers equipped with proper gear failed to use it in time to avoid hypothermia. In my view, the debate should be more focused on how one can make sound decisions when alone regarding go/no go and proceed/turn back during the hike.
Like a lot of us, I do a considerable amount of hiking alone and have worked out a fairly reliable plan of action that provides several opportunities to stop and consider my circumstance. When planning a day hike of any length over 6 miles out and back or a weekend outing, I set up decision points (DPs) where I will stop and make some basic examinations. The DPs are marked on a map, typically features I can easily recognize if tired or vision is obscured like trail intersections, view points, or water crossings. These decision points are established based on what gear I have or am planning on having with me, what the anticipated weather conditions are, and what type of terrain I will be traveling through.
At day hiking DP stops I examine a simple list of circumstances:
Am I too warm or cold?
If yes to either, make adjustments or turn back
Is my progress at or near my estimations?
If no, assess why not and see if the hike is able to be completed in the allotted time
Has the weather changed?
If yes, do I have gear for it and should I make a new DP to reassess continuing
Is there enough daylight to complete the hike?
If unsure, determine if headlamp hiking would be safe, if not, retreat is default
Since there are a lot of things that can add up to a dangerous circumstance, when dealing with small problems I find the rule of three to be valuable. The rule of three doctrine is pretty simple, when an unexpected circumstance like unforecasted weather change couples with another unexpected condition like gear failure (rain gear tears open), the third unexpected circumstance triggers the turn back decision on a day hike. When someone is hiking with me I use a similar strategy but discuss observations with my trail mate to reach a decision.
DPs are not infallible, however I found using them routinely I have grown accustomed to the stop, check, decide, act process they provide. There have been a few times when fatigue or lightheadedness has set in and stopping at a DP gave me the opportunity to make the turn back decision using the "if there's a doubt, there is no doubt" rationale.
While I understand hiking without a partner in winter conditions carries significantly higher levels of risk, if I had to wait for someone to go with me I would miss many days of being out and about. I have found having a plan helps mitigate poor decision making and the default decisions I have established has turned me back more than a few times over the years. Very likely some of those instances avoided more serious consequences.
Its not only about the gear, its about the decisions.
This, exactly. I have no need to hike with 100% of the gear I own for a 5 or 6 mile out & back. Whether or not I'm familiar with the area, if I have cell reception, altitude, and weather are all factor in what I pack. However, unlike many dayhikers, I never go out without a first aid kit, headlamp, raingear, food, emergency bivvy, water & filter, and some kind of insulating gear (except in the dead of summer). And I never, ever wear cotton.
My point all along in this thread. Put another check in the Gear column.
But you had a shelter which in part saved your butt. Failure to don rain gear didn't exactly doom you as here you are posting on this forum. Your trail partner set up your shelter and got you in it---therefore Un-doomed. My question is, what if your trail partner and you had no decent gear like a shelter??
Think about the Dayhiker's Mindset---Without a shelter on their back a dayhiker in bad conditions can only survive by hiking out to his car. This one reality in my opinion causes him to overextend and push on (and backtrack)---with a sliding scale downward of debilitating symptoms. Perhaps a John Muir-type or a Jim Bridger could hole up under a rock overhang and start a fire and get thru the night to see the next day. Then again, a Jim Bridger-type would have everything he needed to spend the night.
The gear does me no good if I decide not to take it. If Im going on a day hike, or to bag a peak, or chck out a view, why would I need a tent? Chances are very good that I will be back home and sleep in my own bed. A tent is just extra weight.
I'm not buying the anti-day-hiker argument at all. The notion that all hikes need to be done with full pack is absurd.
But young Jack Holden's hike wasn't just any old day hike. There's a big difference, for example, between doing the Franconia Loop and an out-and-back to the Bonds. The former is eight miles and extremely well-traveled. The latter is 20+ miles, and much less traveled.
IMO, Alligator made the most important point: there was not necessarily one single factor leading to tragedy here. It was a series of misjudgements combined with some really bad luck.
Hiking alone isn't necessarily fatal, even in winter. Hiking 22 miles a day in the Whites -- not my cuppa, but younger and fitter folks than me have done it. Awful weather above treeline -- to some degree, many of us have dealt with that. Limited daylight... maybe not a problem for a short hike, but more so for an ambitious one. Throw all those factors together and the odds of disaster are too large to ignore.
True. And, even alone, Plan B had a high probability of succeeding. I believe I could have gorilla'd the tent bag out of the shove-it, although it might have damaged the pocket, but who cares? Then got the fly out and rolled up in it like a bug in a rug. I recall my brother telling the tale of tarp-ing somewhere in MA and eventually had to drop the tarp and roll up in it to make it to sunrise...
You can say that now... you are warm, your mind is clear... your body is functioning. I am sure this was not the case when you were in trouble. Face it my friend if someone was not with you...
Tipi Walter
01-02-2017, 13:47
True. And, even alone, Plan B had a high probability of succeeding. I believe I could have gorilla'd the tent bag out of the shove-it, although it might have damaged the pocket, but who cares? Then got the fly out and rolled up in it like a bug in a rug. I recall my brother telling the tale of tarp-ing somewhere in MA and eventually had to drop the tarp and roll up in it to make it to sunrise...
But at least you had the option of a Plan B---to roll up in something waterproof like a tent or tarp---a makeshift bivy bag. Many dayhikers carry nothing to roll up in.
I have no need to hike with 100% of the gear I own for a 5 or 6 mile out & back. Whether or not I'm familiar with the area, if I have cell reception, altitude, and weather are all factor in what I pack. However, unlike many dayhikers, I never go out without a first aid kit, headlamp, raingear, food, emergency bivvy, water & filter, and some kind of insulating gear (except in the dead of summer). And I never, ever wear cotton.
No one said anything about hauling a full kit---we're talking about a shelter, a bag and a pad. Why bring a stove or a 6,000 cubic inch pack or a snow shovel or a candle lantern or two books or a couple sleeping pads or camp shoes or a zillion other things on a dayhike? But you do say you never go out without raingear, food, insulating gear and a bivy bag. Wouldn't you consider this bivy to be overnight shelter??
And Egilbe says---
"The gear does me no good if I decide not to take it. If Im going on a day hike, or to bag a peak, or chck out a view, why would I need a tent? Chances are very good that I will be back home and sleep in my own bed. A tent is just extra weight.
I read this odd post and don't understand it and reflect on the post you wrote earlier---
I too, wont hike in the Whites in Winter without the ability to shelter in place and stay warm and dry. That decision is made before I ever pack a bag or leave the house. For me, the risk is too great, the reward is too small.
Strange conflicting words. Obviously I don't get your point. If you don't go out on a dayhike in the Whites without the ability to shelter in place, and yet a tent is just extra weight, are you talking then of a tube tent or bivy sac?
And of course a tent is just extra weight---this is the main reason why we have these mishaps in the mountains---because of the unwillingness to carry this extra weight.
pilgrimskywheel
01-02-2017, 13:48
Fascinating, really. Sorry about numeris typoos - I've just been blinded by science. That was even more useful than the hot water bottle seminar.
After all that chaos math and cheese tasting, my hypothesis remains unchanged: Assuming 0% risk, results in a 100% probability of survival.
Read the sign. Do what it says. Return to the comfort of your Hobbit Hole. Live to hike another day. I'm sorry this tragedy occurred.
Tipi Walter
01-02-2017, 14:03
I'm not buying the anti-day-hiker argument at all. The notion that all hikes need to be done with full pack is absurd.
No one mentioned bringing a full pack!! Never in this discussion did anyone advise bringing a full pack. I talked about adequate clothing, a tent or bivy bag, a sleeping bag, a pad---not a stove or books or radio or a ground cloth or pillows or camp shoes or down booties or down pants or 3 sets of socks or 2 sets of gloves or a Thermarest repair kit or a tent patch kit or extra boot laces or 10 lbs of food etc.
As many have already mentioned, they won't go out in the Whites on a dayhike without bringing gear to spend the night. My point all along.
my hypothesis remains unchanged: Assuming 0% risk, results in a 100% probability of survival.
Read the sign. Do what it says. Return to the comfort of your Hobbit Hole. Live to hike another day. I'm sorry this tragedy occurred.
Exactly. With no risk comes no mishap. Entering the outdoors and/or wilderness assumes a certain amount of risk. A tree could fall on my head. I could freeze to death. The benefit of Wilderness is that it comes with both beauty and risk. But your hypothesis is sort of nonsensical---as even lifelong couch potatoes run the real risk of blood clots, cardiac occlusions, muscle weakness and decreased bone loss. So in other words there is no true 0% risk activity.
pilgrimskywheel
01-02-2017, 14:38
Good Lord man! 0% risk is pulling up to the trail head, reading the sign, and realizing you have a 99.99% chance of dying and turning around. You know why these poor souls all die alone? Because the entire rest of the earth's surviving population had the good sense to not go there. Why? Because they didn't want to get dead in time for Christmas.
JohnHuth
01-02-2017, 14:41
I usually pack a 'survival kit' - a bivy sack, storm proof matches, cotton soaked in vaseline etc on day hikes - not a 100% guarantee of safety, but a lot lighter than full gear. It wouldn't be a comfortable night, though. I keep thinking that one of these days, I'd try to test-drive an overnight with my survival kit - probably should
I'm following this thread all along and one thing I'd like to throw in:
In high altitude mountaineering, as well as at lower altitude, when things become really narrow, its a well known fact that usually the young guys die and the old guys live.
One reason why this happens is the basic metabolic rate, being much lower for older people, thus giving them way better chance to survive.
We say, "Young mountaineers work themselves to death".
Traveler
01-02-2017, 15:33
No one mentioned bringing a full pack!! Never in this discussion did anyone advise bringing a full pack. I talked about adequate clothing, a tent or bivy bag, a sleeping bag, a pad---not a stove or books or radio or a ground cloth or pillows or camp shoes or down booties or down pants or 3 sets of socks or 2 sets of gloves or a Thermarest repair kit or a tent patch kit or extra boot laces or 10 lbs of food etc.
According to what I have seen, he had adequate clothing but he apparently didn't use it or had trouble with getting it on for whatever reason. I am not sure what he had for camping gear, however if the clothing wasn't used I doubt camping gear would have been useful if he was having problems with sleeves and zippers.
JohnHuth
01-02-2017, 15:35
usually the young guys die and the old guys live.
That seemed to be a take-away from the 1986 K2 season, Kurt Diemberger and Willi Bauer made it down alive, but the others at altitude perished.
Last winter, I was out XC skiing in -20 (F) temperatures in Maine. I was just slowly chugging along, and got passed by three young guys, where were skiing at quite a clip. Before too long, I passed them - they were taking a break. They remarked how cold it was. I kept on chugging. Then, before long, the young guys sailed by me again. I chugged along, and then passed them as they were on another break. One was remarking that he was getting *really* cold. I just kept going. They passed me yet a third time, and, again, I caught up to them on a break. The one guy was saying that he was getting hypothermic.
There's a certain pace that balances the heat your body is putting out and the cooling effects of the environment. Too much 'rubber banding' and it gets you into trouble.
pilgrimskywheel
01-02-2017, 16:04
Well, I'll discuss bringing a full pack. I do. I always do. For training and survival purposes I always tote what I consider my "basic combat load". My base weight seldom fluctuates. I've used a bounce bounce before while thru-hiking to drop weight, but my complete kit is always just up the trail a ways. (Cold weather gear in summer, 4th layer, etc.)
I get a kick out of the many folks I've encountered along the way, usually shivering or crying or both, who've just had a shakedown with some well known trail personality and were convinced to ship home, or more likely "ditch", items on the southern AT especially in spring. Some Army slogans spring to mind here: "You've got what it takes soldier, now take care of what you've got!" Or, my personal favorite is a simple one: "Keep your s--t together!" Much like firearms, or a knife, I find things like the guaranteed ability to shelter and warm in a tent and a good bag, better to have and not need - than to need and not have. (Though I oppose hikers with guns on the AT.) It is difficult, if not impossible, to treat for the cascade effects of shock or hypothermia in the field without these items.
I find things like the "man in the creek drill" absurd, and the kind of contrivance conceived by bored eagle scouts at a jamboree.
The one thing they got right is: "Be prepared."
But at least you had the option of a Plan B---to roll up in something waterproof like a tent or tarp---a makeshift bivy bag. Many dayhikers carry nothing to roll up in.
No one said anything about hauling a full kit---we're talking about a shelter, a bag and a pad. Why bring a stove or a 6,000 cubic inch pack or a snow shovel or a candle lantern or two books or a couple sleeping pads or camp shoes or a zillion other things on a dayhike? But you do say you never go out without raingear, food, insulating gear and a bivy bag. Wouldn't you consider this bivy to be overnight shelter??
And Egilbe says---
"The gear does me no good if I decide not to take it. If Im going on a day hike, or to bag a peak, or chck out a view, why would I need a tent? Chances are very good that I will be back home and sleep in my own bed. A tent is just extra weight.
I read this odd post and don't understand it and reflect on the post you wrote earlier---
Strange conflicting words. Obviously I don't get your point. If you don't go out on a dayhike in the Whites without the ability to shelter in place, and yet a tent is just extra weight, are you talking then of a tube tent or bivy sac?
And of course a tent is just extra weight---this is the main reason why we have these mishaps in the mountains---because of the unwillingness to carry this extra weight.
Some hikers won't be prepared to spend the night in the woods when all they are planning is a day hike. I was playing devils advocate. In the Winter, the margin of error is just too small. What would be an uncomfortable night in the warmer months becomes a death sentence in the Winter. Yet, many people (I've seen it) will hike in blue jeans, sneakers, no hat, hands in pockets while its snowing with 100mph winds forecast above tree line. I never saw any reports of hikers dying that day, so I assume they survived. I was wearing clothing and gear appropriate for going above treeline, and spending the night, but I turned back at the treeline and called it a day. Not everyone does that, not everyone dies.
Tipi Walter
01-02-2017, 19:36
Well, I'll discuss bringing a full pack. I do. I always do.
I find things like the guaranteed ability to shelter and warm in a tent and a good bag, better to have and not need - than to need and not have. (Though I oppose hikers with guns on the AT.) It is difficult, if not impossible, to treat for the cascade effects of shock or hypothermia in the field without these items.
Cascading effects is exactly what I'm talking about, and the ability to camp where you stand for an overnighter---and not panic with even more cascading effects trying to backtrack on an impossible route out to "safety" or a car.
For a dayhiker, night time should be their friend and not their enemy---IF they have the proper shelter to set up and see morning.
Dayhiking with a full pack is also an excellent way to train for upcoming backpacking trips. I know, I know, most dayhikers want to go uber-light and carry the most minimal of gear.
I'm following this thread all along and one thing I'd like to throw in:
In high altitude mountaineering, as well as at lower altitude, when things become really narrow, its a well known fact that usually the young guys die and the old guys live.
One reason why this happens is the basic metabolic rate, being much lower for older people, thus giving them way better chance to survive.
We say, "Young mountaineers work themselves to death".
I look at my close calls in the woods and chalk most of them up to IMPATIENCE. Examples: Can't find the trail dangit, but don't go back and look but instead forge on. Onward at all costs! "Let's take this shortcut down to the river!!!" Oops, 80 foot cliffs with no chance of getting back up.
"Let's cross this river!! It looks doable!! I must cross now!!" Dreadful mistake, most especially with a full 75 lb winter pack. Remember, a creek crossing in the winter is NOT a swimming event.
"Let's shiver and shake and in 3 more miles there will be some place for me to crawl into and someone to help me get warm!!" Nope, it's just you and approaching night and butt cold temps and you're soaked. The outdoors can be a profoundly lonely place.
I would like to see just once a Survival TV show about a survivalist truly alone, truly soaked with almost no ability or materials to make fire, shaking like a leaf, and in one of our January rainstorms at 30F. Let's see what tricks he has up his sodden sleeves.
Incidentally, I did the day trip to Bond Cliff in August of 2014, with a group. That is about 19 miles round trip, without hitting the summits of Guyot and West Bond. It is also a relatively easy 19 miles compared to much of the terrain in the Whites. I had been up there before, but as part of a 2 or 3-day trip.
Given the distance and the shortened daylight hours, I would not likely attempt it as a day trip in the winter, and would never even consider it as a solo day trip in the winter. Perhaps 20-30 years ago I would have considered the former, but never the latter.
Poor decisions:
1) Low margin of error on a day trip given the distance.
2) Even lower margin of error without at least a partner for mutual support.
3) Not turning back at some point given the temperature and precipitation.
4) Not eating and putting on layers at some point when getting cold.
5) Not checking progress against schedule and aborting if behind.
6) Not re-evaluating whether warm enough before breaking tree line.
I am not trying to be callous, and I feel horrible for the family. However, we should not sugar coat this type of tragedy, if we want people to learn from it.
Cascading effects is exactly what I'm talking about, and the ability to camp where you stand for an overnighter---and not panic with even more cascading effects trying to backtrack on an impossible route out to "safety" or a car.
Walter, I do agree that one should bring gear to deal with an emergency circumstance. However, "the ability to camp where you stand" is unrealistic above tree line in the Whites. You need the ability to get yourself below tree line, and then either find a place to bivouac with the appropriate gear or get yourself out. Personally, I would not hit the Whites without gear to survive a night, whether summer or winter. In summer it is just an emergency blanket and enough warm clothing to gut it out. The winter kit is much heavier though. :)
Alligator
01-02-2017, 21:47
Tipi Walter it's time to stop trash talking day hikers. It's stereotypical and getting to the point of being derogatory.
Tipi Walter
01-02-2017, 23:45
I truly appreciate the type threads, I hope I can remember all the tidbits of great information when my time comes around, and have the where with all to implement them, damn shame we have to discuss this at the expense of a fallen hiker though. Thanks all.
I learn alot from these events and from the rescue or recovery stories which follow, and like you appreciate these types of threads.
Although totally different situations, the documentary "Touching the Void" is an interesting perspective on getting out of a pretty dire situation. A climber was left for dead in an ice crevice after breaking his leg. I watched it on Netflix just last week.
Many similar though perhaps not as extreme as the Joe Simpson story come from the mountaineering community. They keep records of such accidents and discuss them.
I am not trying to be callous, and I feel horrible for the family. However, we should not sugar coat this type of tragedy, if we want people to learn from it.
Anyone who hikes or backpacks and spends any amount of time outdoors should or could have an interest in these kinds of stories.
And I'm surprised Laurence Gonzales and his book Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies and Why---hasn't been discussed. I took it out with me on a tough winter trip in January 2010 and remember some pertinent quotes---
"All elite performers train hard, and when you follow in their path, you'd better train hard, too, or be exceptionally alert. That's the main difficulty with neophytes who go into the wilderness: We face the same challenges the experts face. Nature doesn't adjust to our level of skill." GONZALES
"They (a climbing group) actually discussed the weather and "made a group decision to press on for the top instead of rappelling off." Even if they had succeeded, they did not consider how rapidly hypothermia could overtake them in their cotton clothing in a cold rain. They were locked in a game of speed chess with Mother Nature. And she unleashed a series of stunning moves." GONZALES and all quotes from the book DEEP SURVIVAL.
Tipi Walter
01-02-2017, 23:52
After I finished reading the Gonzales book on that trip I compiled a short outline summary of the thing---
THE CONCLUSION TO THE "DEEP SURVIVAL" BOOK by Laurence Gonzales
Here's my brief synopsis after reading the book:
** Avoid impulsive behavior, don't hurry. Slow down.
** Know your stuff and know the system you're entering.
** Commune with the dead: "Read the accident reports in your chosen field of recreation." "The mistakes other people have made." GONZALES QUOTE
** Be humble: "Those who gain experience while retaining firm hold on a beginner's state of mind become long-term survivors." GONZALES
** When in doubt, bail out.
Finally the book ends with this sobering quote: "We can live a life of bored caution and die of cancer." GONZALES.
rocketsocks
01-03-2017, 00:12
After I finished reading the Gonzales book on that trip I compiled a short outline summary of the thing---
THE CONCLUSION TO THE "DEEP SURVIVAL" BOOK by Laurence Gonzales
Here's my brief synopsis after reading the book:
** Avoid impulsive behavior, don't hurry. Slow down.
** Know your stuff and know the system you're entering.
** Commune with the dead: "Read the accident reports in your chosen field of recreation." "The mistakes other people have made." GONZALES QUOTE
** Be humble: "Those who gain experience while retaining firm hold on a beginner's state of mind become long-term survivors." GONZALES
** When in doubt, bail out.
Finally the book ends with this sobering quote: "We can live a life of bored caution and die of cancer." GONZALES.Dogwood mentioned this book a few years ago in a thread and I went out and bought it, yup, good book!
Tipi Walter it's time to stop trash talking day hikers. It's stereotypical and getting to the point of being derogatory.
He trashes everybody unless they "backcamp" and squat with a 50# base weight. Ego overwhelms the brain. Probably never been in the Whites, probably never been above 4000'.
pilgrimskywheel
01-03-2017, 00:24
I was rereading the reports today and remembered something.
I'm from Massachusetts - the Cape. I grew up playing up north in the winter. Summer was for the ocean mostly. We used to ski 93 on regular weekends, and go way up the country for long weekends and vacations. When we'd drive up three hours or more there was always this sort of "Well, we're here - let's do it!" attitude especially with my dad. He was a wildman, and weekends would wear us out. He used to say "Gas aint free you know - let's go, you can warm up later at the lodge!" And, the classic: "One more run!"
We used to approach our passions like it was our jobs, and a job is something you have to give your all when you get there. You've got to go.
I've been reading Muir again and he talks about how slow he liked to move, stopping for a minute, or a day, with new plants he'd found. It jives with what TW says above about not rushing. Don't hurry, slow down.
The mountains aren't going anywhere.
4eyedbuzzard
01-03-2017, 01:33
I'm following this thread all along and one thing I'd like to throw in:
In high altitude mountaineering, as well as at lower altitude, when things become really narrow, its a well known fact that usually the young guys die and the old guys live.
One reason why this happens is the basic metabolic rate, being much lower for older people, thus giving them way better chance to survive.
We say, "Young mountaineers work themselves to death".
Age, experience, wisdom, humility, etc., are obviously linked to a great degree. There's an old quote: "There are old mountaineers and bold mountaineers, but there are no old, bold mountaineers." Just food for thought.
Age, experience, wisdom, humility, etc., are obviously linked to a great degree. There's an old quote: "There are old mountaineers and bold mountaineers, but there are no old, bold mountaineers." Just food for thought.
The Old-Bold quote has been used for pilots, firefighters, law enforcement officers, etcetera. Simply because there's some truth in it as it relates to just about any high risk activity. If we enetered risky situations with the cavalier attitude most of us had in our early teenage years, many more of us wouln't have made it this far.
ScareBear
01-03-2017, 08:15
For everyone who has been wondering why mountaineers seem "obsessed" with the study of things gone wrong, here's a good read:
http://www.alpineinstitute.com/articles/expert-tips/climbing-accident-reports-how-(and-why)-to-read-them/
cmoulder
01-03-2017, 08:19
Well, there is one old, bold mountaineer: Reinhold Messner
Old Hillwalker
01-03-2017, 08:44
To see some sketchy hiking in winter, take a look at this amateur video from a winter hike in Spain. The mountain happens to be on my next summers bucket list while hiking in the Spanish Pyrenees. See if you can idenrify the sketchy parts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZc2wetq6B8&t=82s
Well, there is one old, bold mountaineer: Reinhold Messner
Messner is an exception in most aspects of mountaineering.
Very talented, he always trained extremely hard, plus is very intelligent and innovative.
If you take "the Messners" (him and his brother) their survival rate is only 50% (his brother died at age 24 and Reinhold, then age 26, had a very narrow escape, when they were both "young and bold").
Tipi Walter it's time to stop trash talking day hikers. It's stereotypical and getting to the point of being derogatory.
I don't see Tipi pointing to anyone in particular. Actually I appreciate and value his listing the reasons that cause issues on the trail.
To see some sketchy hiking in winter, take a look at this amateur video from a winter hike in Spain. The mountain happens to be on my next summers bucket list while hiking in the Spanish Pyrenees. See if you can idenrify the sketchy parts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZc2wetq6B8&t=82s
were they really walking along the edges of cornices?
Alligator
01-03-2017, 14:01
Ø
I don't see Tipi pointing to anyone in particular. Actually I appreciate and value his listing the reasons that cause issues on the trail.He's stereotyping a whole class of hikers, Dayhikers. The tone is derogatory, that a dayhiker could not survive an emergency based on his assessment of their gear needs. It's not the tone we want to set on the website. In fact, if you read many of his posts, unless a hiker is out for a 19 day trip, his opinion is kind of low of that hiker. He does have a low opinion of folks not out for overnights that is for certain. This is a forum for Appalachian Trail Enthusiasts. Hikers may be out enjoying the trail for hours, days, weeks, or months. That's individual choice and we strive for an inclusive and respectful atmosphere in regard to different user groups. We can't always accomplish that but it needs to be said here.
Tipi Walter has a wealth of experience to share here that's true but unfortunately he binds himself with rigid expectations for the outdoor experience. Enough said though, point has been said. It's not going to be a pile-on nor a monument dedication. Just try not paint with such a broad brush.
It's Kate Matrosova.
This is yet another sad story in a long line of mishaps involving Dayhikers. Let me repeat: Dayhikers. Kate was a dayhiker and perished in terrible conditions. Remember David Decareaux and his two sons who died of hypothermia in the Ozarks several years ago? They too were dayhikers.
My point? Dayhikers just don't hike with enough gear to get them thru bad conditions. Most refuse to carry a sleeping bag and a tent or a decent tarp with stakes and good rain gear and ample extra clothing. Why is this?? Why is this, especially in winter??????????????????????????????
Logically the Press On Regardless mindset is much more of a Dayhiker's dilemma as, well, they must get out at all costs without incurring an overnighter. No dayhiker I know of wants to pull a winter overnighter no matter what's inside their daypack. So they press on regardless.
A backpacker with winter gear on the other hand can Press On and Camp, there is no "regardless". "Regardless" means going out with insufficient gear no matter your planned hike.
Plus, I'd like to see some facts in the Whites of Dayhiker rescues vs Backpacker rescues. You say both are equal---as in---just as many dayhikers have to be rescued (or bodies recovered) as backpackers. Any numbers to back this up?
When things get squirrelly or unpredictable or dangerous or too cold or too windy backpackers have the option of stopping where they stand, digging out a tent platform, setting up camp and hunkering in for a week until conditions improve. Whereas a backpacker might have several boring days inside a tent, a dayhiker in extreme conditions is having a lifetime's epic event.
Remember, the boys who climbed Denali in the winter of 1967 spent 5 or 6 weeks in conditions worse than the Whites and they had enough gear and experience to survive (except in the beginning when one of their members fell into a crevasse). You could say the group is what kept all of them alive, and yet individuals still had to carry the right gear and survive on an individual basis.
This brings up the almost universal Dayhiker's Outfit---Blue jeans, a t-shirt, maybe a bottle of water. That's it.
My point all along in this thread. Put another check in the Gear column.
But you had a shelter which in part saved your butt. Failure to don rain gear didn't exactly doom you as here you are posting on this forum. Your trail partner set up your shelter and got you in it---therefore Un-doomed. My question is, what if your trail partner and you had no decent gear like a shelter??
Think about the Dayhiker's Mindset---Without a shelter on their back a dayhiker in bad conditions can only survive by hiking out to his car. This one reality in my opinion causes him to overextend and push on (and backtrack)---with a sliding scale downward of debilitating symptoms. Perhaps a John Muir-type or a Jim Bridger could hole up under a rock overhang and start a fire and get thru the night to see the next day. Then again, a Jim Bridger-type would have everything he needed to spend the night.
Cascading effects is exactly what I'm talking about, and the ability to camp where you stand for an overnighter---and not panic with even more cascading effects trying to backtrack on an impossible route out to "safety" or a car.
For a dayhiker, night time should be their friend and not their enemy---IF they have the proper shelter to set up and see morning.
Dayhiking with a full pack is also an excellent way to train for upcoming backpacking trips. I know, I know, most dayhikers want to go uber-light and carry the most minimal of gear.
I look at my close calls in the woods and chalk most of them up to IMPATIENCE. Examples: Can't find the trail dangit, but don't go back and look but instead forge on. Onward at all costs! "Let's take this shortcut down to the river!!!" Oops, 80 foot cliffs with no chance of getting back up.
"Let's cross this river!! It looks doable!! I must cross now!!" Dreadful mistake, most especially with a full 75 lb winter pack. Remember, a creek crossing in the winter is NOT a swimming event.
"Let's shiver and shake and in 3 more miles there will be some place for me to crawl into and someone to help me get warm!!" Nope, it's just you and approaching night and butt cold temps and you're soaked. The outdoors can be a profoundly lonely place.
I would like to see just once a Survival TV show about a survivalist truly alone, truly soaked with almost no ability or materials to make fire, shaking like a leaf, and in one of our January rainstorms at 30F. Let's see what tricks he has up his sodden sleeves.
You are lumping all dayhikers into one big category which is unfortunate. There is a huge difference between a five mile out and back and a thirty plus mile trek such as a president traverse. Huge difference between the Whites and most of the rest of the AT. Huge seasonal differences. Huge difference in solo vs. group. I could go on and on. So bottom line, you can't lump all dayhikers into one group.
my usual day hikes are solo, thirty plus mile in as remote an environment as I can find in the NE. Many border on trail running vs. what is typically called hiking. In these cases I take almost my entire kit which is a non issue since I have about an 8 lb. base. I carry this because of potential cascading events And the belief that I alone am responsible for my safe return to civilization. But this is complete overkill for a quick out and back dayhike from Neels Gap to Blood Mountain and back.
MuddyWaters
01-03-2017, 14:33
Based on forecast for mt washington, temps would have been dropping and winds building in afternoon. Ie worsening conditions throughout afternoon.
Tipi is right. Alpine bivysack and -25F bag and guy would still be here most likely.
But thats one possibility
The other possible ones might be turning back when conditions worsened, hiking with a partner, managing clothing better, or calling it off at trailhead.
In the end the only message is...it can happen to anyone that pushes the limits in adverse conditions. Things dont always go as planned.
Most hikers are likely a fall in a cold creek on 40F day away from similar fate. Only they convince themselves they arent.
Theres truth to facet that many newbie dayhikers are also woefully unprepared for unplanned contingencies, such as slow pace or getting lost. Ive given directions to several lost, without a map.
No doubt it wrong to lump them all together, but its definitely not rare to encounter ill prepared dayhikers.
I remember encountering two groups in Shenandoah that were lost, without maps. One thought the AT was a different trail, because the trailhead they parked at had the name of trail they wanted, they assumed AT was it. The trail they wanted branched off AT 1/4 mile from trailhead. When I showed it to them on map, they had to backtrack 5 miles. They believed white blazes meant they were on their trail. 3 young men in 20s, one was in army.
It doesn't matter how much gear you have if you don't use it. It seems pretty clear from the articles that he hadn't put on his "layers and layers of fleece" and hadn't tried to put on his raingear until he was too hypothermic to do it properly.
“He had some other clothing,” Kneeland said. “If he could have gotten on some dry clothing, it makes all the difference in the world, but if you’re too cold to get that to happen, then you’re going to be in trouble (http://www.concordmonitor.com/solo-massachusetts-hiker-dies-in-white-mountains-7118859).”
In regulating body temperature it's important to stay ahead of the curve. Waiting too long is what killed him.
Tipi Walter
01-03-2017, 15:48
Based on forecast for mt washington, temps would have been dropping and winds building in afternoon. Ie worsening conditions throughout afternoon.
Alpine bivysack and -25F bag and guy would still be here most likely.
The other possible ones might be turning back when conditions worsened, hiking with a partner, managing clothing better, or calling it off at trailhead.
Theres truth to facet that many newbie dayhikers are also woefully unprepared for unplanned contingencies, such as slow pace or getting lost. Ive given directions to several lost, without a map.
No doubt it wrong to lump them all together, but its definitely not rare to encounter ill prepared dayhikers.
Thanks for some reasoned opinions. It's my belief of course that carrying some type of overnight shelter is always a good idea on a winter dayhike, most especially at elevation---and most especially in the Whites.
pilgrimskywheel
01-03-2017, 15:48
FLASH MESSAGE: This just in! "In NH hikers (all of em) have responsibilities by law." Including, but not limited to: "Being prepared, being safe, and - wait for it - being RESPONSIBLE." Radical right? Not really.
Tipi Walter
01-03-2017, 16:25
FLASH MESSAGE: This just in! "In NH hikers (all of em) have responsibilities by law." Including, but not limited to: "Being prepared, being safe, and - wait for it - being RESPONSIBLE." Radical right? Not really.
And also in the flash message: " . . .it is better to carry extra than be carried out."
Alligator
01-03-2017, 16:30
Muddywaters I've met unprepared hikers of all stripes, day, weekender, sectioners, thrus. I'm sure we all have anecdotes about each. Did you stop to count all the other hikers that day that were prepared? Maybe you have x-ray vision and can read their thoughts to judge their experience? No pack is fairly obvious, but maybe they popped in from a side trail and they walked a 1/4 mile.
We were all newbie overnighters at one point. What did you have in your pack? What didn't you have? I didn't have a sleeping pad (instructor did not require it) but I also had a gallon of white gas, a backpacking lantern, and a folding stool. Blue jeans but a wool shirt.
MuddyWaters
01-03-2017, 16:49
Muddywaters I've met unprepared hikers of all stripes, day, weekender, sectioners, thrus. I'm sure we all have anecdotes about each. Did you stop to count all the other hikers that day that were prepared? Maybe you have x-ray vision and can read their thoughts to judge their experience? No pack is fairly obvious, but maybe they popped in from a side trail and they walked a 1/4 mile.
We were all newbie overnighters at one point. What did you have in your pack? What didn't you have? I didn't have a sleeping pad (instructor did not require it) but I also had a gallon of white gas, a backpacking lantern, and a folding stool. Blue jeans but a wool shirt.
I was nobo thru the park
When I have to show people maps and give them directions, because they have none, that makes me justified in judging their preparedness in this aspect.
Also in SNP were a couple of 65 yr old women looking for the big rock overlook north of big meadows. no map. Missed it, walked about a mile past turnoff. Not seriously lost, but no water, walked up from close by parking lot. No packs at all. Someone told them it was something they should go see, with direction of where to park .
Grayson highlands. Mid Nov.two yrs ago, met man and wife north of scales. Semi lost, no map , no pack. I had to explain they were on AT. They decided to hike iron mountain trail back to where they needed to go. 10 miles. Temps in 30s. I passed them again near mt rogers shelter. Getting dark, no light, still had miles to go, temp below freezing, very windy on wiburn ridge, looking scared. I imagine they survived. Temp was 17 that night.
I could cite many such examples . Ive yet to meet a lost overnight hiker though.
These last two examples.....blue jeans.
Popular day use areas see a lot of poorly prepared people. Most get away with it.
Alligator
01-03-2017, 18:03
You've never been lost? Turned around going the wrong way? I've been lost before. Not for long mind you. Turned around coming out of a shelter once, maybe a mile or two. Wrong turns where I missed a blaze, that's usually quickly fixed. Was leaving the trailhead once, saw a thru hiker halfway up a hill. I was driving in my truck. "Hey you thruhiking?" "Yeah." "Trail goes to the right, along the road." "Thanks!" It just wouldn't have been right letting him get up the hill. Weekender approaching in the rain, we strike up a conversation and we each determine the other person is going the wrong direction. Happy to report I was correct. Stopped for lunch later with the guy (coached HS basketball) and we figured out I almost turned around exactly like he did. He walked into a short dead end in a trail curve and got turned around. I did they same. Weren't no sticks blocking the wrong turn but lots of hikers beat down the grass going into the the dead end, the turn was was actually straighter than the trail. It dead-ended on the hillside so it being short, nobody put any blocker sticks down. I stopped on the way out and corrected my direction
Day hiker with no map turned around and couldn't find her exit trail and didn't really know which way she was going. I let her take a picture of my map and hiked ahead but I felt like she might get lost so I ended up waiting a bit after I passed her junction to make sure she didn't stay lost. It was starting to rain and was close to dusk. I didn't see her but I assumed she made it.
pilgrimskywheel
01-03-2017, 18:08
I was nobo thru the park
When I have to show people maps and give them directions, because they have none, that makes me justified in judging their preparedness in this aspect.
Also in SNP were a couple of 65 yr old women looking for the big rock overlook north of big meadows. no map. Missed it, walked about a mile past turnoff. Not seriously lost, but no water, walked up from close by parking lot. No packs at all. Someone told them it was something they should go see, with direction of where to park .
Grayson highlands. Mid Nov.two yrs ago, met man and wife north of scales. Semi lost, no map , no pack. I had to explain they were on AT. They decided to hike iron mountain trail back to where they needed to go. 10 miles. Temps in 30s. I passed them again near mt rogers shelter. Getting dark, no light, still had miles to go, temp below freezing, very windy on wiburn ridge, looking scared. I imagine they survived. Temp was 17 that night.
I could cite many such examples . Ive yet to meet a lost overnight hiker though.
These last two examples.....blue jeans.
Popular day use areas see a lot of poorly prepared people. Most get away with it.
So now what happens? They shine a giant light into the night sky when you have to spring into action? Maybe now would be a good time to share your "Keep morons out, train, license and charge everyone else!" theory MW?
Tipi Walter
01-03-2017, 18:28
Day hiker with no map turned around and couldn't find her exit trail and didn't really know which way she was going. I let her take a picture of my map and hiked ahead but I felt like she might get lost so I ended up waiting a bit after I passed her junction to make sure she didn't stay lost. It was starting to rain and was close to dusk. I didn't see her but I assumed she made it.
This is a variation of a trick I use when you mention letting her take a picture of your map.
Whenever I'm hiking and pass a trail kiosk or bulletin board I'll take a picture of whatever info is pertinent---such as a displayed map---as below on a recent trip into North Carolina.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Gear-TheSevenHolyNylons/Bags-Pads-And-Other-Junk/i-t4c2Ckm/0/XL/P1000102-XL.jpg
pilgrimskywheel
01-04-2017, 03:07
So now what happens? They shine a giant light into the night sky when you have to spring into action? Maybe now would be a good time to share your "Keep morons out, train, license and charge everyone else!" theory MW?
No seriously - tell us that one again man!
rocketsocks
01-04-2017, 03:37
This is a variation of a trick I use when you mention letting her take a picture of your map.
Whenever I'm hiking and pass a trail kiosk or bulletin board I'll take a picture of whatever info is pertinent---such as a displayed map---as below on a recent trip into North Carolina.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Gear-TheSevenHolyNylons/Bags-Pads-And-Other-Junk/i-t4c2Ckm/0/XL/P1000102-XL.jpgI just wanna add that sticker placement is very important and should not be overlooked nor taken for granted, always know where your at. Just recently while Christmas shopping I required bathroom...Badly, I knew I was in front of the Macy's but the sign had me by the Cinnabon, needless to say it wasn't my fault...and I'll just leave it at that. :D
Traveler
01-04-2017, 08:42
Based on forecast for mt washington, temps would have been dropping and winds building in afternoon. Ie worsening conditions throughout afternoon.
Tipi is right. Alpine bivysack and -25F bag and guy would still be here most likely.
But thats one possibility
The other possible ones might be turning back when conditions worsened, hiking with a partner, managing clothing better, or calling it off at trailhead.
This is why i have found planning stops at easily recognized spots along my route of travel woks well as a safety mechanism. I use them as decision points with a set of simple questions that help me realize my thinking is clouded, along with default decisions designed to turn me around, even when i am with someone. For example, not knowing how long it took me to reach any of the points, or times that are significantly slower than estimated can be an indication I may be losing something in the cold. Default for that is a math problem or two, if i have trouble with that, the default is turning back on a dayhike. Another is increasingly bad weather that impacts trail conditions or is near the upper end of my weather gear defaults to turn a back on a dayhike.
The point I'm making here is planning, even for routine dayhike trails. Planned stops to assess, decide, and act have caused me to turn around a few times, given weather/trail conditions and consideration of the gear I have. While I can't say this has saved me, being difficult to quantify events that don't happen, but i can say after returning early and looking at conditions, i avoided some unpleasant circumstances.
Gear is only a tool. Its up to the user to plan and decide what tools are appropriate for the plan and to decide when the tool set is no longer adequate for conditions.
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 10:18
The point I'm making here is planning, even for routine dayhike trails. Planned stops to assess, decide, and act have caused me to turn around a few times, given weather/trail conditions and consideration of the gear I have. While I can't say this has saved me, being difficult to quantify events that don't happen, but i can say after returning early and looking at conditions, i avoided some unpleasant circumstances.
Gear is only a tool. Its up to the user to plan and decide what tools are appropriate for the plan and to decide when the tool set is no longer adequate for conditions.
Gear is only a tool, right, but if you don't have the tool when you need it then the "tool" analogy becomes useless semantics. And so very often the tool for the job gets dashed because the job becomes radically changed. The plan disintegrates and new tools are needed. This applies not only to dayhikers but also to backpackers and I see it all the time. Lack of the proper tools due to radically changing, unplanned, conditions. Why do you think winter AT backpackers bail so quickly into towns and motels during typical winter storms? Because they don't bring the tools needed for these storms---like microspikes or snow shovels or subzero down bags or even decent winter tents and overkill clothing.
Why pull zeros in a town during a tough blizzard when you can pull your zeros on the trail in your tent? Just carry more food and hunker in and enjoy Miss Nature's finest. I never could understand this "bailing" mindset.
The beauty of backpacking with the proper kit is that you can plan a winter hike and plan to go deeper "into the belly of the beast"---deeper into terrible conditions---and not have to alter your plan by an exhausting or unplanned turn-around or lengthy panicked backtrack. Having the proper gear allows a hiker to not panic and not rush out at all costs---and to live to see another day. And to deal with unplanned events.
4eyedbuzzard
01-04-2017, 10:27
... Why do you think winter AT backpackers bail so quickly into towns and motels during typical winter storms? Because they don't bring the tools needed for these storms---like microspikes or snow shovels or subzero down bags or even decent winter tents and overkill clothing. Many PLAN to bail if they encounter such conditions. It's just not a plan you agree with.
Why pull zeros in a town during a tough blizzard when you can pull your zeros on the trail in your tent? Just carry more food and hunker in and enjoy Miss Nature's finest. I never could understand this mindset. They likely don't understand your mindset either.
The beauty of backpacking with the proper kit is that you can plan a winter hike and plan to go deeper "into the belly of the beast"---deeper into terrible conditions---and not have to alter your plan by an exhausting or unplanned turn-around or lengthy panicked backtrack. Having the proper gear allows a hiker to not panic and not rush out at all costs---and to live to see another day. And to deal with unplanned events.Some would argue that the beauty is being able to do as they choose, rather than have to do it a certain way (such as yours).
Not everyone shares your mindset. And they never will. People come in all shapes, sizes, degrees of wanting to endure certain conditions etc. Yours is just more hardcore than most. :)
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 11:04
Many PLAN to bail if they encounter such conditions. It's just not a plan you agree with.
They likely don't understand your mindset either.
Some would argue that the beauty is being able to do as they choose, rather than have to do it a certain way (such as yours).
Not everyone shares your mindset. And they never will. People come in all shapes, sizes, degrees of wanting to endure certain conditions etc. Yours is just more hardcore than most. :)
I suppose a backpacker could PLAN on frequent town trips and yes it's not a plan I agree with. Why pull a backpacking trip to motel rooms??
And since we're talking about death from exposure---perhaps caused by "the beauty of being able to do as he chose" . . . to paraphrase . . .then perhaps there could've been a better way? Like having a hunker-in plan with a shelter and a bag? And not having a plan to bail and get out when the plan fails miserably and you need to hunker in???
In other words, the tools for pulling a successful hike "job" changed radically when the job itself---the hike itself---changed radically.
And as far as backpacking in the great outdoors in all 4 seasons and carrying whatever gear we need for such endeavors---well, such an activity is what I assume this website is about---Hiking and Backpacking as its core. "Not everyone shares your mindset" is probably true but remember this forum is dedicated to backpacking the Appalachian Trail first and foremost.
Traveler
01-04-2017, 11:31
Gear is only a tool, right, but if you don't have the tool when you need it then the "tool" analogy becomes useless semantics. And so very often the tool for the job gets dashed because the job becomes radically changed.
Hence planning and decision making become more important to the proper gear/tools can be considered. Since the conversation is geared to dayhikes, gear decisions are more critical than for multi-day frolics where a more broad assessment of conditions/terrain have to be planned for. Which is why as part of the planning process decision points should be considered for weather, physical, and gear assessments on hikes of any serious length and/or change of terrain. That way if what you decided to bring starts to become overwhelmed by conditions or the body/mind starts to waiver, there are planned stops to make the turn back assessment before getting into serious trouble.
This strategy may not work for everyone, but might make the difference in planning the gear to take on a particular day, place, and a means to make assessments along the way.
4eyedbuzzard
01-04-2017, 11:34
I suppose a backpacker could PLAN on frequent town trips and yes it's not a plan I agree with. Why pull a backpacking trip to motel rooms??
And since we're talking about death from exposure---perhaps caused by "the beauty of being able to do as he chose" . . . to paraphrase . . .then perhaps there could've been a better way? Like having a hunker-in plan with a shelter and a bag? And not having a plan to bail and get out when the plan fails miserably and you need to hunker in???
In other words, the tools for pulling a successful hike "job" changed radically when the job itself---the hike itself---changed radically.
And as far as backpacking in the great outdoors in all 4 seasons and carrying whatever gear we need for such endeavors---well, such an activity is what I assume this website is about---Hiking and Backpacking as its core. "Not everyone shares your mindset" is probably true but remember this forum is dedicated to backpacking the Appalachian Trail first and foremost.But realistically, 99% of AT hikers do not hike your style nor carry the gear you do. 40 years ago, maybe more were. But even then, hiking the AT was never really about surviving severe weather conditions in a wilderness (and I think you agree, the AT isn't exactly a wilderness). And aren't these average hikers in most ways the focus of this website? Hey, I love reading your trip reports and such. But let's face it - you're not a normal AT hiker (meant in a complimentary sense). :D
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 12:03
Hence planning and decision making become more important to the proper gear/tools can be considered. Since the conversation is geared to dayhikes, gear decisions are more critical than for multi-day frolics where a more broad assessment of conditions/terrain have to be planned for. Which is why as part of the planning process decision points should be considered for weather, physical, and gear assessments on hikes of any serious length and/or change of terrain.
This all sounds well and good but no one I know can foretell the future or has a crystal ball about upcoming weather conditions. Someone could stand in a valley at the trailhead and have absolutely no clue about conditions up high. We can plan on hellish conditions or maybe even count on it, but then we (including dayhikers) would be bringing far more equipment to get thru such conditions, i.e. tent/bag/pad. When it comes to weather in the mountains in the winter, planning generally is wrong or falls apart quickly.
But realistically, 99% of AT hikers do not hike your style nor carry the gear you do. 40 years ago, maybe more were. But even then, hiking the AT was never really about surviving severe weather conditions in a wilderness (and I think you agree, the AT isn't exactly a wilderness). And aren't these average hikers in most ways the focus of this website? Hey, I love reading your trip reports and such. But let's face it - you're not a normal AT hiker (meant in a complimentary sense). :D
I think 99% is way too high a number. Despite what I said about frequent bailing, I see AT backpackers pulling tough trips in the winter, postholing, needing microspikes, and staying out for long periods of time. Sure, there may be a tendency on this website to highlight the Highly Interrupted---those who carry 3 days worth of food and sleep in a motel every 3 days---but this is the exception I think. Some winter AT backpackers do exactly as I do and carry overkill gear---the big difference between us is the food weight---I carry alot of food to keep me out longer.
And some AT backpackers face by choice severe winter conditions without bailing into a town---if you include guys using the AT for a normal winter backpacking trip in places like the Whites or Mt Rogers etc. In fact, the harder the storm the wilder the AT becomes---it certainly is a wilderness certain times of the year, no matter if you're in Georgia or New Hampshire.
Traveler
01-04-2017, 12:49
This all sounds well and good but no one I know can foretell the future or has a crystal ball about upcoming weather conditions. Someone could stand in a valley at the trailhead and have absolutely no clue about conditions up high. We can plan on hellish conditions or maybe even count on it, but then we (including dayhikers) would be bringing far more equipment to get thru such conditions, i.e. tent/bag/pad. When it comes to weather in the mountains in the winter, planning generally is wrong or falls apart quickly.
Ok, one more time, specifically for day hikes in mountains during in winter conditions. Planning would include a look at weather, with extrapolation for the elevation one is considering. Arriving at a trailhead oblivious to weather is a spontaneous thing as 4-Eyed pointed out.
You are correct about the crystal ball, hence planning for what one believes they will encounter on their hike and outfit accordingly. This will usually avoid carrying gear likely not needed, or conversely gear that is likely to be needed. Which then plays into the planned decision points to assess self the tools decided on and based on the assessments of self and gear, continue or turn back. I'm not sure why you are arguing the point as not a reasonable action, or I may be reading you wrong.
Spontaneous hikes into mountains, or familiarity with the area and route may generate a false sense of security however. Planning would help mitigate those.
For longer multi-day frolicking, deeper planning is needed to outfit for more expansive weather concerns, terrain, and any contingencies one may expect far from the trail head.
Gear is only a tool, right, but if you don't have the tool when you need it then the "tool" analogy becomes useless semantics. And so very often the tool for the job gets dashed because the job becomes radically changed. The plan disintegrates and new tools are needed. This applies not only to dayhikers but also to backpackers and I see it all the time. Lack of the proper tools due to radically changing, unplanned, conditions. Why do you think winter AT backpackers bail so quickly into towns and motels during typical winter storms? Because they don't bring the tools needed for these storms---like microspikes or snow shovels or subzero down bags or even decent winter tents and overkill clothing.
Why pull zeros in a town during a tough blizzard when you can pull your zeros on the trail in your tent? Just carry more food and hunker in and enjoy Miss Nature's finest. I never could understand this "bailing" mindset.
The beauty of backpacking with the proper kit is that you can plan a winter hike and plan to go deeper "into the belly of the beast"---deeper into terrible conditions---and not have to alter your plan by an exhausting or unplanned turn-around or lengthy panicked backtrack. Having the proper gear allows a hiker to not panic and not rush out at all costs---and to live to see another day. And to deal with unplanned events.
can we just agree that your style and thru hiking is miles apart? Thru hikers stop in towns to eat. 99% of thru hikers will stay in town and eat another pizza rather than hunker down in a blizzard. Why? Because THEY chose to hike their hike not yours.
ScareBear
01-04-2017, 13:32
Ok, one more time, specifically for day hikes in mountains during in winter conditions. Planning would include a look at weather, with extrapolation for the elevation one is considering. Arriving at a trailhead oblivious to weather is a spontaneous thing as 4-Eyed pointed out.
You are correct about the crystal ball, hence planning for what one believes they will encounter on their hike and outfit accordingly. This will usually avoid carrying gear likely not needed, or conversely gear that is likely to be needed. Which then plays into the planned decision points to assess self the tools decided on and based on the assessments of self and gear, continue or turn back. I'm not sure why you are arguing the point as not a reasonable action, or I may be reading you wrong.
Spontaneous hikes into mountains, or familiarity with the area and route may generate a false sense of security however. Planning would help mitigate those.
For longer multi-day frolicking, deeper planning is needed to outfit for more expansive weather concerns, terrain, and any contingencies one may expect far from the trail head.
Which is why we take a huge gear bin on wheels with us when heading out for any overnight on the AT. Since it is about a 500 mile drive, the weather is apt to be different than forecast upon departure, with some local issues that aren't forecasted/reported. We then just select the gear we need for the plan when we arrive. Everything except sleeping bags(they are stored in loose large bags hung in a gear closet) is already in the huge bin, so going backpacking anywhere on literally a moment's notice is easily accomplished. The weather gets a final check the moment before gear/selection and packing. Same with skiing. All my ski gear, except skis, is in one huge bin. Boots, poles, ski pants, hard shells, soft shells, beacons, shovels, probes, etc...that way we can just throw the bin in the vehicle of choice(car, small truck, huge truck, SUV), strap the skis on the roof and drive 13 hours to the Rockies....YMMV...
Remember PPPPPP!!!!!!
Has Tipi ever been in the mountains of New England, of the Central Rockies or the West Coast?
All I keep reading is the same BS, bashing thru hikers, stay in a hotel every 3 days, really, or ultra runners, or weekend end backpackers. The adjectives and adverbs used make it sound like he's climbing K2 or fighting World War III.
Give it a rest, carrying 90# packs might look macho, but totally indifferent to most people.
No. Tipi is still fighting WW II.
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 14:35
No. Tipi is still fighting WW II.
I thought I'm still fighting at the Frozen Chosin in the Freezin' Season---Korea, winter of 1950. Now those guys saw some really tough conditions.
And Hosh asks---Has Tipi ever been in the mountains of New England, of the Central Rockies or the West Coast?
We're lucky here in the mountains of Tennessee and North Carolina and Virginia as we have the opportunity to curl up and die and get frozen like at any other place. In fact, some North American travelers consider Southeastern winters to be the worst of all with days of cold rains at 35F. Hypothermia and frostbite and high winds and deep cold happen here too, in fact not far from where I backpack Grandfather Mt recorded wind speeds of 200mph on top. And in January 1985 it was -32F on top of this mountain. I know, I was out in it camping around the town of Boone, NC.
And -10F cold snaps are common on the high mountain peaks in this area. As is postholing and Snowdowns---whereby the green tunnel collapsed on itself in snow-loaded brush.
pilgrimskywheel
01-04-2017, 14:53
I thought I'm still fighting at the Frozen Chosin in the Freezin' Season---Korea, winter of 1950. Now those guys saw some really tough conditions.
And Hosh asks---Has Tipi ever been in the mountains of New England, of the Central Rockies or the West Coast?
We're lucky here in the mountains of Tennessee and North Carolina and Virginia as we have the opportunity to curl up and die and get frozen like at any other place. In fact, some North American travelers consider Southeastern winters to be the worst of all with days of cold rains at 35F. Hypothermia and frostbite and high winds and deep cold happen here too, in fact not far from where I backpack Grandfather Mt recorded wind speeds of 200mph on top. And in January 1985 it was -32F on top of this mountain. I know, I was out in it camping around the town of Boone, NC.
And -10F cold snaps are common on the high mountain peaks in this area. As is postholing and Snowdowns---whereby the green tunnel collapsed on itself in snow-loaded brush.
So, that's a big NO in answer to the question? I was on the DMZ in Korea in 1993 - no peace, just a cease fire - it was hideous cold. Are you also saying you were there in 1950? If so, you are in INCREDIBLY good shape for an 86 y/o man!
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 15:10
So, that's a big NO in answer to the question? I was on the DMZ in Korea in 1993 - no peace, just a cease fire - it was hideous cold. Are you also saying you were there in 1950? If so, you are in INCREDIBLY good shape for an 86 y/o man!
Everybody infers that I'm either fighting WW3 or WW2 what with my sterling expertise and overly-testosterone-fed manliness as I use wonderful adverbs and adjectives to describe outstanding exploits in various, no ALL, theaters of operation. So why not pick Chosin reservoir from the Korean War? Or maybe WW3 would be better.
cmoulder
01-04-2017, 15:38
Well, in the Adirondacks if you hunkered down and took a zero every time it got to -10°F and had a foot of snow you wouldn't go far. :)
Also snowshoes are recommended to prevent postholing and enable travel when it snows. Snowshoers and skiers in the Daks will verbally berate (if not attack with an ice axe) the inconsiderate nitwit who messes up the trail postholing. In some areas such as the Eastern High Peaks you can receive a fine of up to $250 for not using snowshoes/skis when there is 8" of snow on the ground. Not to mention, exhaustion from postholing is a great way to kill yourself.
Everybody infers that I'm either fighting WW3 or WW2 what with my sterling expertise and overly-testosterone-fed manliness as I use wonderful adverbs and adjectives to describe outstanding exploits in various, no ALL, theaters of operation. So why not pick Chosin reservoir from the Korean War? Or maybe WW3 would be better.
Unless you're taking testosterone supplements, I think a Walter Mitty sub-conscious and ego are a better explanation.
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 16:15
Yours is just more hardcore than most. :)
Well, in the Adirondacks if you hunkered down and took a zero every time it got to -10°F and had a foot of snow you wouldn't go far. :)
Also snowshoes are recommended to prevent postholing and enable travel when it snows. Snowshoers and skiers in the Daks will verbally berate (if not attack with an ice axe) the inconsiderate nitwit who messes up the trail postholing. In some areas such as the Eastern High Peaks you can receive a fine of up to $250 for not using snowshoes/skis when there is 8" of snow on the ground. Not to mention, exhaustion from postholing is a great way to kill yourself.
I've exhausted myself dozens of times postholing and while difficult DID NOT find it a great way to kill myself, not yet anyway. And here in the Southeast mountains we generally never carry snowshoes and instead just posthole 3 miles a day and feel good about it. In fact, I've never seen a winter backpacker here in snowshoes. I think I'm the only one who even brings a snow shovel.
But up north and in the Daks and the Whites etc they need different equipment for winter backpacking---and I'm sure there are winter backpackers pulling trips up there too. And some might even pull the occasional in-tent zero when desired. Our big problem here is Snowdowns---because many of our trails are green rhododendron tunnels whereby heavy wet snow collapses the tunnel down to 2-3 feet high. Then it's a struggle to get thru on our hands and knees while still wearing our 40 or 60 or 75 lb packs. Spikes don't help, snowshoes won't help.
Unless you're taking testosterone supplements, I think a Walter Mitty sub-conscious and ego are a better explanation.
But wait!! 4eyedbuzzard says I'm hardcore!!:)
coach lou
01-04-2017, 16:31
Nice ....10 pages of this BS............and it is allowed to continued.
Has anyone outside of New Hampshire learned anything from this nonsense?
ScareBear
01-04-2017, 17:01
Nice ....10 pages of this BS............and it is allowed to continued.
Has anyone outside of New Hampshire learned anything from this nonsense?
And here I was, all ready to hit the send button on a mega snarky reply when I lost internet...
So, I decided to be a kinder, gentler ScareBear...
Yes, I learned some things about the topic.
Yes, I learned some things about some people replying to the topic.
Yes, there is some irrelevant stuff.
Yes, 10 pages is too long due to some irrelevant stuff.
Yes, the mods are watching.
No, the mods don't think it is OOC or they would have closed it.
Yes, you have every right to complain. Perhaps addressing it to somebody who matters(not me) would be better advised than taking a shot in the dark and just bitching to the people who are contributing to the thread irrelevantly. I think you are looking for an alligator to bitch to...just sayin...
pilgrimskywheel
01-04-2017, 17:19
Nice ....10 pages of this BS............and it is allowed to continued.
Has anyone outside of New Hampshire learned anything from this nonsense?
I'm always puzzled why folks don't just log out. You're contributing what here? You read all ten pages and now have buyers remorse? Change the channel.
rocketsocks
01-04-2017, 17:28
Many over the years have lamented about "where's the wilderness" "there is no wilderness" and so on. I would suggest there is and it right in front of you, all around you even. Next time a large snow storm is in the forecast, head out while its dry, not to far, 8-10 miles maybe and wait for the Wallop, you're now in a wilderness. Fight like hell to to get home, pass others coming in for their winter wonderland folly on your way to a new found and long lost friend...you've arrived.
this is my plan, maybe not in the whites above tree line, but I think you all get the point.
coach lou
01-04-2017, 17:30
[QUOTE=pilgrimskywheel;2116563 You're contributing what here?[/QUOTE]
That is exactly my question to you
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 17:30
---------------------------------------sorry, misinformed post-----return to reg. programming-----
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 17:33
Many over the years have lamented about "where's the wilderness" "there is no wilderness" and so on. I would suggest there is and it right in front of you, all around you even. Next time a large snow storm is in the forecast, head out while its dry, not to far, 8-10 miles maybe and wait for the Wallop, you're now in a wilderness. Fight like hell to to get home, pass others coming in for their winter wonderland folly on your way to a new found and long lost friend...you've arrived.
this is my plan, maybe not in the whites above tree line, but I think you all get the point.
Excellent point. I always know where to find wilderness---just head out into the backyard with your gear on the worst day of the year. Anyone can die inches from their house and their back door. If you can't get to Miss Nature, she'll come to you. It's called Home Delivery.
pilgrimskywheel
01-04-2017, 17:35
That is exactly my question to you
I'm sorry your question to me is what exactly?
pilgrimskywheel
01-04-2017, 17:38
fo-rum /forem/ noun 1. a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 17:42
fo-rum /forem/ noun 1. a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
Plus a discussion or forum discussion evolves and is a living thing. It grows where it will and meanders. Like a creek. No sweat.
coach lou
01-04-2017, 17:43
All I see here is condescending insults to people with different ideas
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 17:46
All I see here is condescending insults to people with different ideas
It's not too bad. Gets a little testy now and then. You should read BackpackingLight.com for some real blowouts.
pilgrimskywheel
01-04-2017, 17:55
All I see here is condescending insults to people with different ideas
I'd encourage you to reread the thread.
There has been a spirited, protracted, and evolving dialogue where I know I for one have learned a good deal. We aren't going to agree. And, disdain for notions we find odious, or ridicule for ideas we find ridiculous is healthy. Without dissent lemmings just pile off cliff edges. We are learning from each other.
Before so-called PC culture took sway, guilt and shame were powerful tools of modifying social behavior. Now, you can't tell little Johnny he's doing something stupid - because that might hurt his feelings - he's sensitive. So, be nice. Ever notice that under this new social order folks just don't seem to be getting any smarter, or better at behaving in ways we collectively find socially acceptable? In fact, I'd argue the opposite is happening despite this wonderful technology.
In closing, I quote Stephen Hawking who said: "The most important thing is that we keep talking!" Agree to disagree.
Excellent point. I always know where to find wilderness---just head out into the backyard with your gear on the worst day of the year. Anyone can die inches from their house and their back door. If you can't get to Miss Nature, she'll come to you. It's called Home Delivery.
Heading out Saturday and Sunday to do a mini-shakedown hike in order to proof some new gear. The forecast for Amicalola Falls State Park is a high of 29* and a low of 14*, which should equate to about 23*/8* at Black Gap Shelter. If our gear is enough this weekend, it'll serve our needs come March. Heck, I may even have to heat up a water bottle to stay warm...;)
Tipi Walter
01-04-2017, 18:52
Heading out Saturday and Sunday to do a mini-shakedown hike in order to proof some new gear. The forecast for Amicalola Falls State Park is a high of 29* and a low of 14*, which should equate to about 23*/8* at Black Gap Shelter. If our gear is enough this weekend, it'll serve our needs come March. Heck, I may even have to heat up a water bottle to stay warm...;)
Or as Tommy Lee Jones says . . . if this ain't winter it'll do until winter comes. My forecast is similar for a forthcoming trip---Saturday morning at 13F in the valley, -1F atop Bob Bald.
pilgrimskywheel
01-04-2017, 19:03
All I see here is condescending insults to people with different ideas
37769 Remeber: "The ignore button is your friend!" Of course, ignore is the root word of
FlyFishNut
01-04-2017, 19:29
My point? Dayhikers just don't hike with enough gear to get them thru bad conditions. Most refuse to carry a sleeping bag and a tent or a decent tarp with stakes and good rain gear and ample extra clothing. Why is this?? Why is this, especially in winter??????????????????????????????
I don't get this. The area this time of year is known to claim the lives of experienced hikers. So, why not throw a bivy and sleeping bag in your pack? It's insurance. I've hiked less potentially dangerous places and brought more "gear" with me in case things went south. Ounces of precaution...
Kaptainkriz
01-04-2017, 19:32
Planning something similar this weekend as well...doing some AT wandering above the northern end of SNP. High 22, low 9, and maybe a little flurry.
Plan to play with my cookset and experiment with layers and some other gear. :)
Heading out Saturday and Sunday to do a mini-shakedown hike in order to proof some new gear. The forecast for Amicalola Falls State Park is a high of 29* and a low of 14*, which should equate to about 23*/8* at Black Gap Shelter. If our gear is enough this weekend, it'll serve our needs come March. Heck, I may even have to heat up a water bottle to stay warm...;)
Or as Tommy Lee Jones says . . . if this ain't winter it'll do until winter comes. My forecast is similar for a forthcoming trip---Saturday morning at 13F in the valley, -1F atop Bob Bald.
coach lou
01-04-2017, 20:04
I don't get this. The area this time of year is known to claim the lives of experienced hikers. So, why not throw a bivy and sleeping bag in your pack? It's insurance. I've hiked less potentially dangerous places and brought more "gear" with me in case things went south. Ounces of precaution...
I remember when I was 26.....I was made of iron:rolleyes:
coach lou
01-04-2017, 20:05
......I thought I was:o
......I thought I was:o
I got your back Lou, Semper Fi..
coach lou
01-04-2017, 21:12
I got your back Lou, Semper Fi..
Do or Die, Brother!