Carrying a rain jacket and a wind shell?

[Shrewd]

Is anyone bringing both a rain jacket and a wind shell? I have an OR Helium that I've had for a few years and hardly used, but recently got a gift certificate to REI and impulse bought a patagucchi Houdini.


Thoughts?

[Furlough]

I do. The wind shell/shirt is a versatile piece of kit for me. Uses include the obvious, and I pull it on at rest breaks, camp set up/break down, meal prep, use it as an additional sleep layer if needed, pull it on for those late night trips to the bushes. Rain jacket for me is for the rain.

Marmot DriClime Wind Shirt
Frog Toggs Rain Jacket

[Slo-go'en]

Typically there is no need for both. If it's so windy you need a wind shell or if you just need to trap body heat, the rain jacket will suffice. I hike in a Dickie work shirt unless it's wicked hot out and that's enough of a wind shell for most situations.

[Starchild]

Not seeing the usefulness of a wind shell that does not serve as a rain jacket. I have used my rain jacket at moments that I wanted warmth, even slept in them. I have also used a emergency $1 poncho for warmth when it was not raining. In short wind shells are great if they can double as rain jackets, and you can leave your other rain jacket at home.

At one time I did carry both because I was new to backpacking and both were light. It was the case that I had both so I brought both. Never did I see a difference between the two except in the extra weight and bulk.

With all that said pit zips ( or in case of frogg toggs, pit cuts) in the rain jacket can make all the difference.

[Dogwood]

Helium and Houdini sound like nicknames for wing suit flyers. :D

How long have you had the OR Helium? Is it the Helium or Helium II version? The earliest versions were not seam taped and were not fully WP despite the iffy marketing or consumers implying such. The Helium II is indeed a WP rain jacket. On the AT wearing both the OR helium II and Patagonia Houdini Jacket together IMO might be doable in regard to comfort during the colder wetter shoulder season periods...early spring late fall.

What works for you will depend on your gear goals.

Yes, I have layered the OR Helium II rain jacket over the Pat Houdini Wind Jacket but not typically in the east and not above 50* day time highs. Too humid for this combo other than during those periods but might get away with it in ME, NH, southern Montreal and Quebec areas.

My typical goals for this combo is a gram weenie/SUL wt saving one that offers great versatility.

You're going to get very mixed opinions about rain wear her on WB. Good luck sorting it all out.

[Dogwood]

My typical goals for this combo is a gram weenie/SUL wt saving one that offers great versatility.

In this regard there are lighter wt options than this combo.

[2EZ]

I am going with a wind shirt for this year's thru hike attempt.

Yes, I will also carry a rain jacket. The wind shirt acts as an insulator for my base layer, allowing me to forgo carrying a 10-12 oz fleece layer for warmth over my merino.

I think it it meets a great need for the thru hiker as a happy medium before having to weight and bulk up to something heavier, I.e. The R-1 for the cold season.

For the weight, it can't be beat.
Happy Trails.
EZ

[bigcranky]

I carry both. Typically I wear the windshirt when it's cool and blustery -- it breathes well and keeps me warmer than wearing, say, a fleece pullover. I find my rain shell does not breathe well enough while hiking unless it's very cold out, and I sweat a lot. So for me they do two separate functions.

[Shrewd]

Initially I figured I'd bring my Helium 2 and use it for both, but a few people extolled the virtues of a wind shirt and I was curious. I would not use the two in conjunction with one another

[ScareBear]

I hiked with my Marmot soft-shell(Schoeller windproof) under my rain jacket/hardshell Monday. It worked fine, if a little heavy. I never take it on the AT. Instead I take a polypro zip-t of a weight suitable for the season and use my hardshell as my wind/rain pro. I find the polypro warmer under the hardshell and in the bag at night. YMMV.

[swjohnsey]

Marmot Precip jacket and pants serve both purposes for me.

[Hosh]

I also carry both, although my rain jacket is a Frog Toggs. It is amazing how a wind shirt can capture heat, ward off wind at such a low weight. Mine is a MH Ghost, it's very versatile, hiking, biking, snowshoeing.

[swisscross]

I recently starting toating two wind shells instead of a full blown shell/rain jacket.
The Houdini is a great wind shell and is my main jacket/mid, sheds light rain. I layer it with a Feathered Friends Jackorack that is waterproof( by standards-not really) and I have a sub 8oz rain combo.
Pair that with an umbrella. Been great on my last few wet hikes and think it would be a keeper on a long hike as well.

[trailmercury]

Both...
I'm UL...2017 AT thru in prep
Old Montane Featherlight Smock windshirt 3 oz. (these are still sold under a slightly different incarnation)
Montbell Versalite rainshell 6.7 oz
Windshirt blocks wind over baselayer or insulating layer or both, breathes much better than the rain jacket and with a collar and zip neck for venting
Rain Jacket shell for more stationary warmth worn over the windshirt and baselayer/insulation, or in colder or wetter conditions while moving
Total weight close to or less than most Rainshells alone, way more versatility
my $00.02...
YMMV

[Smooth & Wasabi]

Another vote for both with a slight caveat. It is my only moving top for most 3 season conditions other than a synth or merino t-shirt and it is an older highly breathable houdini. I don't take a long sleeve hiking shirt, a light fleece(until shoulder season), or a long sleeve baselayer. Sometimes folks who don't like wind shirts have one or more of these with them which when combined with a rain shell meet all of the same needs(for some people and conditions even better). I really consider my windshirt to be a hooded trekking shirt. I have even layered it under a rain shell successfully.

[burger]

I am going with a wind shirt for this year's thru hike attempt.

Yes, I will also carry a rain jacket. The wind shirt acts as an insulator for my base layer, allowing me to forgo carrying a 10-12 oz fleece layer for warmth over my merino.

This. Rain jacket + windshirt makes having a "mid-layer" like a light fleece unnecessary.

BTW, if you're unsure about your Helium, pick up a Frogg Toggs, O2 Rainshield, or the like jacket to save a few more ounces. Those jackets are perfect for a well-maintained trail like the AT My O2 Rainshield + Houdini combo weighs less than most hikers' rain jackets alone.

[cliffordbarnabus]

just rain jacket. otherwise, redundant.

[PaulWorksHard]

Overkill and somewhat duplicative, just depends on how important your base pack weight is to you.

[trailmercury]

Overkill and somewhat duplicative, just depends on how important your base pack weight is to you.
My base pack weight means a "ton" to me, but a windshirt is not "duplicative" enough to leave it behind in 3 season backpacking, especially carrying a sub 7 oz rainshell.
The windshirt does too many things the rainshell cannot.

[Engine]

Just the rain jacket.

My AntiGravityGear rain jacket weighs only 5.5 ounces in size large, with pit zips! It works as a wind breaker, rain shell, and final layer for those miserably cold breezy days. At $99 it's pretty tough to beat...

[Greenlight]

At this point, I only carry my Frogg Toggs suit to do both. I wear the top as my outer layer on a lot of hikes. There are a lot of nicer, more technical pieces of clothing out there, but FTs have worked for me up until now.


Is anyone bringing both a rain jacket and a wind shell? I have an OR Helium that I've had for a few years and hardly used, but recently got a gift certificate to REI and impulse bought a patagucchi Houdini.


Thoughts?

[MuddyWaters]

Sometimes do
Sometimes dont
I dont dont find it a necessity
It is light, more comfortable outer layer than rain jacket
Convenient, size of tennis ball, stuffs in pocket easy
Adds a few degreers over puffy or baselayer
I wear it more in dry climates
I tend to bring it if i dont bring fleece, for a little extra morning warmth in cool, not cold conditions
With fleece, it usually dont make the cut due to the excruciating 1.9 extra oz. Who can take that?

Kind of a niche item that depends on lots of factors

Never once have I thought " man, wish I had my windshirt"
Never

On AT , donning rain jacket, even with pitzips, pretty much means I will be damp soon unless its really dry cool windy. Theres times windshirt might work better, but thats a very marginal improvement, not a life altering difference.

Do you need a rain jacket...yes
Do you need a wind jacket..no

If you want to carry both..its up to you.

When you have too many layering options, some dont get used. You default to whats simple for you. I find if I bring fleece hoody, its what I use. I live in it, day and night. Which relegates windshirt to cool, but not cold, hiking conditions.

[Shrewd]

I think I'll bring it. I'm not a gram weenie, though I am hoping to stay somewhat light. It's only four ounces. If it doesn't prove its usefulness I'll send it home with what I figure will be a pile of other stuff I though I'd like to have

[HooKooDooKu]

Seems to me that any jacket (or pants) that is water-proof will also be wind-proof. Therefore, if you have a water-proof layer, you don't need a separate wind-shell.

However, you typically need more layers than just a water-proof layer. So there's nothing wrong with carrying a wind-shell layer as well if it's fulfilling the role of an additional needed layer.

[Cheyou]

I bring both , rain jackets don't breath well or at all in some cases. I will suffer the 3oz weight penalty to have a jacket that isn't clammy.

[gbolt]

I also bring both. The rain jacket holds off the rain longer and allows me to keep hiking in colder temperatures 32º and lower. The Wind Jacket is lighter, wets out quicker and does better in the 35 and above temps. The hood is better/stiffer/more functional on the rain jacket and a lot more flimsy/less secure around the face on the Wind Jacket. I also agree the weight penalty is small and worth the added versatility. Mine weights 4.6 and cost $29 but is not the Houdini.

[PaulWorksHard]

My base pack weight means a "ton" to me, but a windshirt is not "duplicative" enough to leave it behind in 3 season backpacking, especially carrying a sub 7 oz rainshell.
The windshirt does too many things the rainshell cannot.
Care to list them?

[Dogwood]

One of the biggest complaints about rain jackets are users experiencing getting wet from the inside. That can be addressed from several angles with IMHO taking a cumulative approach being the best. One facet of this is when rain is very light or of very short duration or not raining but windy and brisk and the idea is not get wet from the inside during high output activities and periods but still protect from convective heat loss the wind jacket/wind shirt is much more breathable than rain jackets. The highest MVTR of true WP rain jackets is something around g/m2/24 hrs of 40,000. That's the best in the fabric department. Most are much less in the 10,ooo-20,000 range. Wind breakers/jackets have the potential to be of greater breathability. Hence why it might be an acceptable approach taking along at a minimal wt penalty if opting for some of the most UL wind shirts/jackets in backpacking/hiking/running/peak bagging/possibly snowshoeing/etc situations.

[Hosh]

Agree, I look at a wind shirt as part of a layer system. They are so light, so small that even a gram counter can hardly notice. I do think they are probably more beneficial in western climates. Intermittent sun/shade is easier than with a rain jacket.

[Feral Bill]

Both: Marmot windshirt and Packa. The functions are very different.

[trailmercury]

Care to list them?
1.breathes waaaaaaaaay better
2. packs smaller (somewhat of a wash, because I carry both anyway)
3. longevity, rainshell linings wear out, especially if used in situations where windshirt would suffice... not sure if this is actual use or just deterioration but the waterproof lining on the Marmot Precip that I used when I bought my windshirt (circa 2002ish) peeled eventually making it useless
4. I can carry the windshirt in my Zpacks shoulder strap pocket with room to spare, shell won't fit there
5. in very light rain its a better outer while on the move, even in cool temps, these thing dry out so quickly even when "wetted out"
6. Can almost pass as "casual" attire while indoors in town and not make one feel hot and clammy or look goofy...

Maybe instead of posting that it "does too many things a rainshell cannot", I should have posted "YMMV"
HYOH

[FreeGoldRush]

1.breathes waaaaaaaaay better
2. packs smaller (somewhat of a wash, because I carry both anyway)
3. longevity, rainshell linings wear out, especially if used in situations where windshirt would suffice... not sure if this is actual use or just deterioration but the waterproof lining on the Marmot Precip that I used when I bought my windshirt (circa 2002ish) peeled eventually making it useless
4. I can carry the windshirt in my Zpacks shoulder strap pocket with room to spare, shell won't fit there
5. in very light rain its a better outer while on the move, even in cool temps, these thing dry out so quickly even when "wetted out"
6. Can almost pass as "casual" attire while indoors in town and not make one feel hot and clammy or look goofy...

Maybe instead of posting that it "does too many things a rainshell cannot", I should have posted "YMMV"
HYOH

Several people have commented that a wind shell breaths better than a rain jacket. I have the ZPacks rain jacket, which they claim breaths better than... anything. Why does the wind shell do a better job at not trapping moisture?

[trailmercury]

This goes way back in debate on multiple "minimalist" backpacking forums for many years...litebackpacker.com (when it was still relevant/useful), here (to a lesser degree), Backpackinglight.com, hopefully in scientific journals, etc, etc, ......If somebody did a PhD on this, someone please share... that would be useful...the waterproof membrane of a proclaimed rainshell has less breathability...In my practice... YMMV
I believe equal ability to "breathe" from a true rainshell vs. a windshirt has yet to be accomplished from a garment without a relative comfort/weight/versaltility penalty...I wish to be enlightened so to speak, but until then, my Montane Featherite windshirt (2.8-3.0 oz. depending on size) goes with me all the time, along with a rainshell...
This has been debated, but the cows have not come home...
Yay Pertex Quantum! (not a new thing)
YMMV

[MuddyWaters]

1.breathes waaaaaaaaay better
2. packs smaller (somewhat of a wash, because I carry both anyway)
3. longevity, rainshell linings wear out, especially if used in situations where windshirt would suffice... not sure if this is actual use or just deterioration but the waterproof lining on the Marmot Precip that I used when I bought my windshirt (circa 2002ish) peeled eventually making it useless
4. I can carry the windshirt in my Zpacks shoulder strap pocket with room to spare, shell won't fit there
5. in very light rain its a better outer while on the move, even in cool temps, these thing dry out so quickly even when "wetted out"
6. Can almost pass as "casual" attire while indoors in town and not make one feel hot and clammy or look goofy...

Maybe instead of posting that it "does too many things a rainshell cannot", I should have posted "YMMV"
HYOH

If not needed, does it matter how light it is, how small it packs, what it looks like, etc.?

Dwr finish fails on windshirts too. Just like rain jackets. They both depend on dwr surface finish for water repellency. And cant breathe if wet out.

It is something possibly more comfortable in limited circumstances. Thats all.

I find when rain is light enough to wear windshirt for extended time, its light enough to wear nothing most of time. . Mine wets out and gets clingy fairly quick as well. 10-15 min at most if its really raining hard enough to want something. This is probably because it cant breathe in rain due ro high humidity. Im damp regardless, doesnt matter what Im wearing or not wearing.

Still not breatheable enough in humid conditions, ie rain, (impossible for anything to be at 100% humidity), inside still gets wet and clings if your warm and working hard.

A potential problem is more you wear it, it gets dirty, dwr is less effective. This should be issue if wear often. Daily, etc.

It works well in some circumstances. Been exxaggerated somewhat though as they became "the rage" over last 7-10 yrs or so IMO. Id think no ones ever not made it to maine because didnt have windhirt.

Now coupled with umbrella....we have a winner . Some do without rain jacket. Great if your an umbrella afficionado.

[daddytwosticks]

Different tools for different jobs. If I'm out on a day hike on a blustery spring day, I'd bring my wind jacket and pack a cheap 99 cent disposable rain poncho just in case. Don't assume everybody here engages in epic thru-hikes and must pack accordingly. :)

[Cheyou]

Different tools for different jobs. If I'm out on a day hike on a blustery spring day, I'd bring my wind jacket and pack a cheap 99 cent disposable rain poncho just in case. Don't assume everybody here engages in epic thru-hikes and must pack accordingly. :)

this in the through hicker specific topics category!

thom

[daddytwosticks]

this in the through hicker specific topics category!

thom

You are correct. My mistake. I'm sorry. :)

[Bigryn0]

Marmot Precip jacket and pants serve both purposes for me.

Second the precip jacket. I use it on as a rain shell over my Patagonia synchilla fleece. S little heavy but I love the feel of the fleece.
The precip is a great light weight wind breaker that's wp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PaulWorksHard]

The fact is, during the part of my thru hike, from June through end of August, I wore my rain jacket only once, in the whites. The thought occurred to me to send it home, but I kept it for that one cold, windy, rainy day where even though it was about 50 degrees, I could have suffered from hypothermia without it.

In those warmer months, you just get wet while hiking and feel nice and cool. When the rain stops, I was dry within 1 hour. It seemed to me a lot of thru hikers did the same. If it is warm and you are exothermic, no need to wear the rain jacket. (But I would always carry it)

[trailmercury]

If not needed, does it matter how light it is, how small it packs, what it looks like, etc.?

Dwr finish fails on windshirts too. Just like rain jackets. They both depend on dwr surface finish for water repellency. And cant breathe if wet out.

It is something possibly more comfortable in limited circumstances. Thats all.



I find when rain is light enough to wear windshirt for extended time, its light enough to wear nothing most of time. . Mine wets out and gets clingy fairly quick as well. 10-15 min at most if its really raining hard enough to want something. This is probably because it cant breathe in rain due ro high humidity. Im damp regardless, doesnt matter what Im wearing or not wearing.

Still not breatheable enough in humid conditions, ie rain, (impossible for anything to be at 100% humidity), inside still gets wet and clings if your warm and working hard.

A potential problem is more you wear it, it gets dirty, dwr is less effective. This should be issue if wear often. Daily, etc.

It works well in some circumstances. Been exxaggerated somewhat though as they became "the rage" over last 7-10 yrs or so IMO. Id think no ones ever not made it to maine because didnt have windhirt.

Now coupled with umbrella....we have a winner . Some do without rain jacket. Great if your an umbrella afficionado.

well stated, cant wholeheartedly disagree here
he asked me to list so I gave it my best shot
I never will advocate it as an absolutely necessity

[2EZ]

In keeping with the OP question...
Of this year's thru hike attempts, who is planning to take both?
Perhaps with an explanation as to it's place in your clothing system.

Plenty of reasons to say that a fleece, or a buff, or a hooded down jacket, or any other number of clothing items Are or Are Not necessary, but what is this group actually planning to leave with?

[trailmercury]

In keeping with the OP question...
Of this year's thru hike attempts, who is planning to take both?
Perhaps with an explanation as to it's place in your clothing system.

Plenty of reasons to say that a fleece, or a buff, or a hooded down jacket, or any other number of clothing items Are or Are Not necessary, but what is this group actually planning to leave with?
Both for me...leaving Springer 4/3, see my posts above YMMV

[JohnG10]

I've done a whole bunch of east coast backpacking trips in the mid Atlantic and north east sections of the AT.

What I've learned is that rain jackets are waaaay too clammy to hike in, but are fine for warmth when sitting around in camp.

I think the "wind "shirt" is really just a high tech version of a long sleeved shirt. Ie: it has the same uses, benefits, and weaknesses. It just drys faster, packs smaller, and weighs less. Of course, it's thinner material too - so it's also less warm and less durable.