Missing hikers in Shining Rock Wilderness

[hikernutcasey]

Two day hikers weathered the storm last night and were able to briefly make phone contact this morning. Temps are supposed be near 0 tonight. Doesn't say what kind of gear they have and whether or not they have a shelter.

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2017/01/07/hikers-lost-nc-wilderness-temperatures-drop/96289790/

[Engine]

Apparently, they didn't bother checking the weather? It's not like this weather event was a secret...

[royalusa]

"Officials in Haywood County just notified News 13 that the missing hikers have been located and a rescue effort is underway...." from http://wlos.com/news/local/lost-hikers-still-alive-as-crews-search-remote-areas

[The Solemates]

Apparently, they didn't bother checking the weather? It's not like this weather event was a secret...

Don't quite understand your comment. You don't hike in the winter?

[Engine]

I sure do, but if they got caught out by the severe weather on a day hike I feel pretty safe in guessing they weren't prepared. Since the incident is concurrent with the storm which affected such a broad area, it's realistic to assume they didn't know how serious it was forecast to be.

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[ScareBear]

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2017/01/07/hikers-lost-nc-wilderness-temperatures-drop/96289790/

[Venchka]

I've been watching the forecast and waiting for this weather system all week. We don't get a lot of winter nights on the Upper East Side of Texas.
I used the approach of the system to test my newest sleeping bag and tent in cold weather. I set up the tent in the backyard Thursday and spent Thursday and Friday night outside. Morning lows were 24 and 14 degrees respectively. I learned what I needed to know. It's currently 19 at 10:10pm. I missed a third night in the teens. Shucks.
I just read that the hikers were saved from themselves. You can't fix stupid.
By the way, the tent and sleeping bag were perfect in the cold weather.
Cheers!
Wayne


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[HooKooDooKu]

Seems like people are throwing rocks without knowing the facts....

The bad weather was scheduled to come Friday, and the news story said these guys set out on a day hike on Thursday.
Additionally, as the new story points out, they were in a "wilderness" area where trail signs are no longer welcome.
(Side note: One of the things I like about hiking in the Smokies is that the National Park Service seems to be taking the attitude that it is cheaper to maintain trail signs than to spend money looking for lost hikers).

[Venchka]

Not sure that I was throwing stones except to point out that the weather system that moved in was talked about for days. It was not a surprise.
The good news is that the two hikers had enough gear and supplies to last three days. They were able to start a fire which is good and bad news given the recent fire history in the area.
I get it. Stuff happens. Sometimes folks aren't prepared for the Stuff when it happens.
I hope that everyone is safe and well.
Wayne


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[Traillium]

I've been watching the forecast and waiting for this weather system all week. We don't get a lot of winter nights on the Upper East Side of Texas.
I used the approach of the system to test my newest sleeping bag and tent in cold weather. I set up the tent in the backyard Thursday and spent Thursday and Friday night outside. Morning lows were 24 and 14 degrees respectively. I learned what I needed to know. It's currently 19 at 10:10pm. I missed a third night in the teens. Shucks.
I just read that the hikers were saved from themselves. You can't fix stupid.
By the way, the tent and sleeping bag were perfect in the cold weather.
Cheers!
Wayne


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Love truth-testing like that, Wayne!

[TNhiker]

(Side note: One of the things I like about hiking in the Smokies is that the National Park Service seems to be taking the attitude that it is cheaper to maintain trail signs than to spend money looking for lost hikers).



yup.....

the trails in the Park are some of the easiest to follow with basically every official intersection is marked....

if one stays on the trail and knowing which direction they are headed----its hard to really get lost...............

unlike in shining rock where theres a bunch of intersections and unmarked..............

[Bianchi Veloce]

They were able to make a fire and shelter. They were with each other rather than alone. They survived. Sounds like they were pretty resourceful.

http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/34204535/deputies-rescue-efforts-continue-for-2-missing-hikers-in-haywood-co

[Engine]

Seems like people are throwing rocks without knowing the facts....

The bad weather was scheduled to come Friday, and the news story said these guys set out on a day hike on Thursday.
Additionally, as the new story points out, they were in a "wilderness" area where trail signs are no longer welcome.
(Side note: One of the things I like about hiking in the Smokies is that the National Park Service seems to be taking the attitude that it is cheaper to maintain trail signs than to spend money looking for lost hikers).

I knew the facts that were pertinent. Bad weather fast approaching...don't go out unprepared. But it seems like we aren't supposed to point out stupidity as many threads have proven lately.

[Venchka]

Love truth-testing like that, Wayne!

Thanks. I thought that real world testing was an intelligent and prudent thing to do. My wife had a different opinion.
Back on topic: Short days and rapidly approaching brutal weather. A noon turn around, or midway to sunset from their start time, would have been prudent. I guess we'll never know all of the details.
Wayne


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[The Cleaner]

yup.....

the trails in the Park are some of the easiest to follow with basically every official intersection is marked....

if one stays on the trail and knowing which direction they are headed----its hard to really get lost...............

unlike in shining rock where theres a bunch of intersections and unmarked.............. I have a good idea of where they may have got off the Little East Fork trail. I hiked up this trail last March(I've been down it twice recently) and encountered a section with several blowdowns.While moving around the downed trees I somehow could not find the trail again.It took me about 5 minutes of looking around to get back on the trail.The lack of trail maintenance could be responsible for many hikers losing the trail.The USFS lacks funding for trail maintenance but has money to send in their Wilderness Ranger to give citations for not having bear canisters or bust someone for smoking a little weed.On 2 of my 3 trips there I met the WR.In about 30 years of hiking the AT on the TN/NC section I've only met USFS LEOs twice.This does not apply to the trail in the GSMNP,where I no longer hike due to the high number of hikers, I've had my permit checked many times.

[nsherry61]

. . .The USFS lacks funding for trail maintenance but has money to send in their Wilderness Ranger to give citations for not having bear canisters or bust someone for smoking a little weed. . .
The former costs money. The later is a funding source. ;-)

[The Cleaner]

After checking my map it look's like I was mistaken as to which trail the hikers got lost on.My bad. Becoming lost on many of the trails there is easy to do even for experienced hikers.Failure to carry the appropriate gear is a mistake that could cost your life in winter conditions.Several times on winter hikes ,even some that were not too cold,my hands got cold enough that I could not use my Bic lighter.If not for having a flint steel w/striker and Coleman fuel which let me get my stove and a fire going,I might be posting with shorter fingers.I always pack 3,(THREE), fire/stove lighting devices. A Bic lighter,the flint steel and matches tightly wrapped in my First Aid kit.

[gjbu]

It is very easy to take a wrong path in shining rock. Glad they got out. Could have turned out worse.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I knew the facts that were pertinent. Bad weather fast approaching...don't go out unprepared. But it seems like we aren't supposed to point out stupidity as many threads have proven lately.
At least nobody's accused them of not having hiking poles. :rolleyes:

[coach lou]

At least nobody's accused them of not having hiking poles. :rolleyes:

They had no poles?!!! :eek:

[The Cleaner]

At least nobody's accused them of not having hiking poles. :rolleyes: That's a good one.A friend of mine completed an AT thru hike last year using only 1(one) hiking pole which was a stick he picked up along the trail.He used several as they can be recycled easy and are free.I'm a one pole guy too.Let the posting of links proving how great 2 expensive hiking poles begin.

[royalusa]

A few more details: https://www.ncdps.gov/lost-hikers-rescued-shining-rock-wilderness-area

[royalusa]

http://cadescovelovers.blogspot.com/2017/01/missing-hikers-found-uninjured-but-cold.html

[The Cleaner]

http://cadescovelovers.blogspot.com/2017/01/missing-hikers-found-uninjured-but-cold.html One of the hikers is a "highly esteemed cheer leading coach",that's funny as Hell.They should get a bill for several thousand $$$ for their rescue.That might discourage other unprepared hikers from hitting the trail at any time.

[imscotty]

One of the hikers is a "highly esteemed cheer leading coach",that's funny as Hell.They should get a bill for several thousand $$$ for their rescue.That might discourage other unprepared hikers from hitting the trail at any time.

What I think is funnier is that his name is Davy Crockett.

I am willing to cut them a break. They took a day hike on a reasonably nice day and got lost on unmarked trails. That can happen to anyone. I have no idea how they were equipped on their day hike, but they managed to survive two cold nights and a snowstorm. They stayed together, started a fire, it seems they kept their heads. They may have a bill to pay, but they are home safe now with lessons learned. TbftgoGgi

[TwoSpirits]

TbftgoGgi indeed.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Am I the only one that keeps misreading this as "Missing hikers with Shiner Bock?"

[Skyline]

Thanks. I thought that real world testing was an intelligent and prudent thing to do. My wife had a different opinion.
Back on topic: Short days and rapidly approaching brutal weather. A noon turn around, or midway to sunset from their start time, would have been prudent. I guess we'll never know all of the details.
Wayne


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I dayhike a lot in SNP and other places, mostly south- or mid-Atlantic. Almost every time it's a round-trip, or circuit hike, back to where I parked.

If I have a reason to be out of the woods at a certain time (pre-existing commitment later, pending extreme weather issue...whatever), I'll figure the number of hours from my start time to end time, subtract a half hour for a buffer, so then I know what time I'd better be headed to the trailhead. If a round trip hike, that might mean reversing direction before I reach what I wanted to be the turn-around. If a circuit, it gives me a time by which I should be well enough along (consulting map and trail description for difficulties ahead) so I know whether I can easily finish the circuit, or have to turn around and retrace steps to be at my vehicle on time.

Ideally, I won't have a reason to have a "deadline" (so I can just finish up night-hiking if necessary) but when I do, this scenario has never failed to work. It might have worked for the hikers in this story as well.

[Traillium]

One of the hikers is a "highly esteemed cheer leading coach",that's funny as Hell.They should get a bill for several thousand $$$ for their rescue.That might discourage other unprepared hikers from hitting the trail at any time.

I seriously doubt a mere few grand $ would cover the costs associated with three helicopters and what one of the above-mentioned sources reports as multiple teams. Perhaps these cheerleaders could do some fund-raising? …

Glad they were found; wishing the broader message of appropriate awareness / equipment / training / etc were included in the media reports …

( … Though I do notice that even we can't agree on what those details are … )

* - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

For my part, I'll second what others have pointed out: weather predictions are remarkably well-known days ahead, and quite accurate for 48 hours ahead of time — reliable enough to have required considerable caution to these Hiker's with only a couple of months experience …

(I live adjacent to the Great Lakes, which especially in winter, are the cause of remarkably strong small-scale weather disturbances — snow-streamers in the Langmuir coils-spirals that can drop huge amounts of snow in one location while leaving an adjacent area 10km away in blue skies devoid of any snow accumulation. (Think Buffalo, my American friends!) I know that an area in which I'd like to snowshoe about 60km away from me is very likely to get hit with such a streamer on Tuesday, 48 hours from now. I'm not heading there this midweek …)

[egilbe]

Gotta love that lake effect snow

[nsherry61]

. . .wishing the broader message of appropriate awareness / equipment / training / etc were included in the media reports …

( … Though I do notice that even we can't agree on what those details are … ) . . .
Just to add to that disagreement, it sounds to me like this couple failed primarily on navigation skills (including knowing when to start backtracking). They had the where-with-all to survive, but didn't have the common sense to use the GPS they probably have on their cell phone to be able to relay their coordinates on first contact. How much effort could have been saved it they just knew how to establish their location!?

One can compensate for a lot of mistakes and failures if one knows where they are and how to exit to relative safety.

How many survival shows would have little or nothing to film if the survivor just walked out?
How many places in the lower 48 states can you get more than a day's long hike from a road or other exit point?

[Traillium]

How many places in the lower 48 states can you get more than a day's long hike from a road or other exit point?

Another form of this excellent question is along the lines of how many places today can you be/hike where you are quite possibly something else's foodstuff?

(For me, it would up along the Hudson Bay coastline in summer, with Polar Bears fasting onshore and waiting impatiently for sea ice to let them go out seal-hunting. My wife had had that experience while studying Snow Geese outside Churchill, Manitoba. Geez!!!)

[Venchka]

Does anyone remember the group of college aged ladies who were caught by a snow storm in or near GSMNP and required a rescue?
In this case and the one above, both reports mentioned "not having any water". While surrounded by snow.
That might be a journalistic error. Or maybe not.
A detailed Lessons Learned was always required after any accident or near miss where I used to work. The same should be required in these cases. Posted publicly online.
Wayne


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[mweinstone]

Loss of rought has claimed many
It happens takeing a pee and getting turnned around...

Or in fog
Or by inexsperience or many many many pther ways.
Its not a personal failure its a condishion.
Allways be supportive and wait for an oppurtunity to share your knowlage on navigation.
Staying found is a nice practice and no ones imune to imperfection.
Prayers for all who face the lone dark night lost.

[rafe]

How many places in the lower 48 states can you get more than a day's long hike from a road or other exit point?

Distance might be short "as the crow flies" but that's essentially meaningless. Geraldine Largay comes to mind, as does Chris McCandless.

[Engine]

Loss of rought has claimed many
It happens takeing a pee and getting turnned around...

Or in fog
Or by inexsperience or many many many pther ways.
Its not a personal failure its a condishion.
Allways be supportive and wait for an oppurtunity to share your knowlage on navigation.
Staying found is a nice practice and no ones imune to imperfection.
Prayers for all who face the lone dark night lost.

Someone getting lost is always a possibility and that individual can receive a free pass, given that most of us have gotten turned around at some point in the past. What is less deserving of a smile and a handshake is being unprepared for what might happen in the event you do get lost. And before someone tries to argue the fact the people in question "found shelter and lived, so they must have been somewhat prepared", that's not pertinent to the fact their lack of preparation forced them to activate a SAR response which was significant in it's scope.

I'm really glad it turned out well and especially thrilled that no rescuers were harmed in the resulting operation.

[Lnj]

What does "TbftgoGgi"mean?

[Booty2015]

there but for the Grace of God go i

[brswan]

Just to add to that disagreement, it sounds to me like this couple failed primarily on navigation skills (including knowing when to start backtracking). They had the where-with-all to survive, but didn't have the common sense to use the GPS they probably have on their cell phone to be able to relay their coordinates on first contact. How much effort could have been saved it they just knew how to establish their location!?

One can compensate for a lot of mistakes and failures if one knows where they are and how to exit to relative safety.

How many survival shows would have little or nothing to film if the survivor just walked out?
How many places in the lower 48 states can you get more than a day's long hike from a road or other exit point?
I read in an article that the phone they used to contact authorities didn't include the GPS signal as most do. It was a "unique" phone it stated.

My GPS didn't work on my phone when I most needed it in the Smokies this past October. We would have had to sleep on the trail if it wasn't for some dumb luck. We hiked to Clingman's dome from the south and thought we had enough time to make it back to our 2nd camp site. It got dark and we managed to get on a side trail. Could not get a GPS lock for the life of me. Thank goodness for those guys at that camp site next to ours.

Anyways

[nsherry61]

Loss of rought has claimed many
It happens takeing a pee and getting turnned around...

Or in fog
Or by inexsperience or many many many pther ways. . .
Reminds me of one of my favorite, if scary, stories. A friend of mine was backpacking in Denali National Park. She woke up in the middle of the night needing to go pee. She walked away from the tent, barefoot and wearing just her underwear. Going pee, she got turned round and fog had settled in so much that she couldn't see the tent that was no more than a few yards away. All the yelling she could do didn't wake up her partner. She started getting very cold, and after 15 or 20 minutes of walking in circles trying to find the tend, and getting scared that hypothermia was setting in, she decided her best bet was to hike down hill, bare foot, in her underwear, to where she would have to cross the park road within a couple of miles and hopefully find help. Walking along the road, she found a ranger's truck, broke a window to crawl in, took off her wet cloths, and wrapped herself in a sheet of plastic that she found to retain some warmth. Apparently the very surprised ranger that found her the next morning, in his truck, was most kind and helpful. All turned out embarrassing and okay.

If only she'd had one of those Big Agnes Mountain Glow tents. ;-)

[rafe]

???? She couldn't find her tent a few yards away, so thought it was smarter to bushwhack down the mountain, in the fog, and in the dark and cold, in her undies ???

[rocketsocks]

Does anyone remember the group of college aged ladies who were caught by a snow storm in or near GSMNP and required a rescue?
In this case and the one above, both reports mentioned "not having any water". While surrounded by snow.
That might be a journalistic error. Or maybe not.
A detailed Lessons Learned was always required after any accident or near miss where I used to work. The same should be required in these cases. Posted publicly online.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalki don't remember that one, but I seem to remember maybe last year or the year before 3 fellas lost over night in the winter under similar circumstances when they didn't check the weather.

[One Half]

What I think is funnier is that his name is Davy Crockett.

I am willing to cut them a break. They took a day hike on a reasonably nice day and got lost on unmarked trails. That can happen to anyone. I have no idea how they were equipped on their day hike, but they managed to survive two cold nights and a snowstorm. They stayed together, started a fire, it seems they kept their heads. They may have a bill to pay, but they are home safe now with lessons learned. TbftgoGgi

Here's one place they might want to reconsider for their next trip.


"They have no idea where they are," he said. "They have no compass, maps, GPS, nothing with them."

[rocketsocks]

In the smokies as I recall.

[ScareBear]

What I think is funnier is that his name is Davy Crockett.

I am willing to cut them a break. They took a day hike on a reasonably nice day and got lost on unmarked trails. That can happen to anyone. I have no idea how they were equipped on their day hike, but they managed to survive two cold nights and a snowstorm. They stayed together, started a fire, it seems they kept their heads. They may have a bill to pay, but they are home safe now with lessons learned. TbftgoGgi

If your parents named you Davy Crockett, you were bound to wind up lost in the wilderness needing rescue...who does that to their children?

[Traffic Jam]

i don't remember that one, but I seem to remember maybe last year or the year before 3 fellas lost over night in the winter under similar circumstances when they didn't check the weather.

I think you're remembering the guys who hiked up the AT from Fontana(?). They hiked a few miles (2-3?) then were too cold to continue. I think they ate cans of ravioli to stay warm and were wearing blue jeans. The rescuers set up tents for the night, warmed them up, and got them out the next day. At least that's what I remember. It still puzzles me why they didn't walk back to Fontana, it was only a few miles.

[Flounder940]

I think you're remembering the guys who hiked up the AT from Fontana(?). They hiked a few miles (2-3?) then were too cold to continue. I think they ate cans of ravioli to stay warm and were wearing blue jeans. The rescuers set up tents for the night, warmed them up, and got them out the next day. At least that's what I remember. It still puzzles me why they didn't walk back to Fontana, it was only a few miles.

Those are the guys who had a blow torch with them and burned their clothes because they couldn't start a proper fire. They didn't have a shelter with them either. Real winners

[Traffic Jam]

Those are the guys who had a blow torch with them and burned their clothes because they couldn't start a proper fire. They didn't have a shelter with them either. Real winners

Ha ha, I had forgotten about the blow torch.

[rocketsocks]

Ha ha, I had forgotten about the blow torch.me too :eek:

[imscotty]

Just added 'Blowtorch' to my list of ten essentials. Thanks :)

[Venchka]

The group of college women were a winter or two earlier than the guys who burned their clothes. "Better living through chemistry."?
The women were in a shelter huddled together when the SAR crew found them. I mainly remember the quote about all the snow and they were out of water. LOL.
Wayne


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[coach lou]

Just added 'Blowtorch' to my list of ten essentials. Thanks :)

Do you have room? I won't bring mine:D

[John B]

Those are the guys who had a blow torch with them and burned their clothes because they couldn't start a proper fire. They didn't have a shelter with them either. Real winners

Two years ago in the Red River Gorge in Kentucky, three day hikers got turned around on one of the trails and didn't know how to get back to their car. When it got dark, they got scared and started burning pieces of their clothes for light (the newspaper article didn't say if they tried/failed to start a campfire). They thought bears were in the area. They used a cell phone to call for help and were rescued shortly before dawn, about 1/4 of a mile on a trail from their car. They'd managed to burn through all of their shirts and some socks.

[Flounder940]

There needs to be a Darwin sticky on here where links to articles on what not to do can be posted. A post of shame.

[Traveler]

There needs to be a Darwin sticky on here where links to articles on what not to do can be posted. A post of shame.

While a fun idea, unfortunately those who most need to see that would not be here to read it.

Panic can do a lot of things to otherwise stable people. I have tried to imagine myself in a position where burning clothing was the only or last option and I just can't get there because I know a few things and carry stuff to avoid that road. I have to wonder what level of panic was reached to start the destruction of clothing, how it manifested in the group, and perhaps more importantly, how it impacted their lives after the event. I feel badly for anyone lost overnight not having gear or knowledge about what to do, it has to be a horrible, avoidable experience.

[Leo L.]

... They'd managed to burn through all of their shirts and some socks.

Only possible in the USA, where most clothes are of plastic.
The usual wool stuff we have here would hardly burn, but more likely kill by bad smell.

[Flounder940]

While a fun idea, unfortunately those who most need to see that would not be here to read it.

Panic can do a lot of things to otherwise stable people. I have tried to imagine myself in a position where burning clothing was the only or last option and I just can't get there because I know a few things and carry stuff to avoid that road. I have to wonder what level of panic was reached to start the destruction of clothing, how it manifested in the group, and perhaps more importantly, how it impacted their lives after the event. I feel badly for anyone lost overnight not having gear or knowledge about what to do, it has to be a horrible, avoidable experience.

Upon thinking about it, a Darwin thread wouldn't be a good idea and would be thoughtless and insensitive. Where would the line be drawn? Only those who end up surviving with only a bit of frostbite? All of the search and rescue...or recovery threads already hash the what ifs and what not to do scenarios to death. No need to pile on.

[bobbycobbler]

I was hiking the Art Loeb trail last year (same area/trail) in January, heading south towards the parkway when the clouds dropped right on us. We were on Black Balsam summit. If your ever bored, look at a Google aerial view of that. There are so many zig zag man made trails up there at any given intersection. Had to actually break out the map and compass to figure out which direction to head. We were prepared, but in doesn't take much to get turned around in that area.

[Traffic Jam]

While a fun idea, unfortunately those who most need to see that would not be here to read it.

Panic can do a lot of things to otherwise stable people. I have tried to imagine myself in a position where burning clothing was the only or last option and I just can't get there because I know a few things and carry stuff to avoid that road. I have to wonder what level of panic was reached to start the destruction of clothing, how it manifested in the group, and perhaps more importantly, how it impacted their lives after the event. I feel badly for anyone lost overnight not having gear or knowledge about what to do, it has to be a horrible, avoidable experience.

its also interesting to think about group vs. individual reactions in these situations, especially personality dynamics, situational leadership, etc.

As a solo hiker, I always pay close attention to the trail...always alert and on guard. When hiking with my daughters, we are busy socializing.

Another thought...maybe this was mentioned in one of those other threads recently(?)...sometimes people do weird things with their clothes when they're hypothermic. They will undress and even hide. If clothing is seen strewn on the trail, look around for someone in distress.

(although I have to admit if some naked guy is seen hiding behind a tree, I might shoot first and ask questions later :) )

[Pheral]

I was hiking the Art Loeb trail last year (same area/trail) in January, heading south towards the parkway when the clouds dropped right on us. We were on Black Balsam summit. If your ever bored, look at a Google aerial view of that. There are so many zig zag man made trails up there at any given intersection. Had to actually break out the map and compass to figure out which direction to head. We were prepared, but in doesn't take much to get turned around in that area.

No it doesn't, and I've been thinking about that a lot while reading this thread. I'm actually surprised this sort of thing doesn't happen more often up in that area.

[brian2o0o]

I had planned to do a trip into Shining Rock last weekend going in from Hwy 276 to see some snow, but decided against it because I don't have a bag warm enough for below zero temps. Would have been interesting with all that was going on it sounds like...

[rocketsocks]

I had planned to do a trip into Shining Rock last weekend going in from Hwy 276 to see some snow, but decided against it because I don't have a bag warm enough for below zero temps. Would have been interesting with all that was going on it sounds like...prolly a smart move on your part.