View Full Version : sleeping bag ... down vs. synthetic
fivefour
01-20-2006, 09:53
What do yall pack ?
down. light weight rules. today's water-resistant fabrics make it harder to get a down bag damp. sure, body water vapor can get in, but unless you're in a really damp area, you can dry it in the sun periodically... i've poured a cup of water onto my bag, and it sits there for hours, literally...
others WILL disagree.
Synthetic. For me the extra 5-6 ounces is my "insurance" that I can still be a little warm even if my bag does get wet. Never has yet, but just in case.
What do yall pack ?
Down. The weight and volume savings are significant. While I agree with Seeker that the DWR fabrics used are quite protective, I think hours is pushing it. The DWR abrics are really great these days, but the place the water leaks in is typically the where the baffles are sewn. My "insurance" is my synthetic high loft jacket or vest. Something I wear has more of a chance getting wet, so I play it save there. If my bag got soaked, I could survive (but maybe not be comfortable) using my clothing until I could dry the down out.
Something I wrote elsewhere...
There is a fair amount of controversy about how important of "warm when wet" is for a sleeping bag. If down gets wet, it's going to take time to dry, and you are going to be cold. I used to think the getting down wet from splashing or rain was an issue, but then I realized that in 30 years of camping, I have only twice gotten my sleeping bag wet enough to possibility impact the performance of a down bag (once was when I was testing things in the backyard and the sprinkler turned on)... and a good DWR shell would have most likely protected the bag adequately. I switched to using a down bag in 2000, and am very happy for the change. Note: If I was spending most of my time in locations which were cool-cold and damp (say western Washington state) I would consider using synthetic insulation. In conditions that were consistently below freezing I would also consider using a synthetic bag... but most likely would use a down bag with a vapor barrier.
--mark
Down. Can't imagine using anything else for the above reasons.
hammock engineer
01-20-2006, 12:32
I go with down for the light weight.
I may be wrong, but most of the time your bag will get wet is in your pack for one reason or another. I am going to put mine in a nylon dry bag. REI has them for around $10 and they only weigh 2 or 3 oz. Between that, my pack, and my pack cover I shouldn't have any problems with that. The dry bag should also help if my hydration bladder get a hole and leaks in the pack.
The only other time it should get wet is in your shelter. That can be fixed with the type of shelter, location, or way you set it up.
I may be wrong, but that is my 2 cents.
Pennsylvania Rose
01-20-2006, 12:56
Synthetic. My choices are either to buy myself and three growing teens each an inexpensive synthetic sleeping bag (they've all topped 5'4" and are getting their adult size - and final - bag), or buy me a down bag that will last a lifetime. What fun would I have if I couldn't take them with me?
I've quit using sleeping bags in favor of Ray-Way synthetic quilts. They're light, cheap, easy-to-make, and you can tailor them to fit your measurements. They stand up well to abuse, are warm when wet, and are quick to dry.
fivefour
01-20-2006, 13:23
Have any of you down users ever had a problem with blowing rain in a shelter ? And i guess my next question would be exactly how wet does a down bag have to get before the performance level drops ? And if a down bag becomes thoroughly soaked does the down fully recover ? I would think it would clump near the baffles ....
i sleep in a hammock, preferably, or on the top right-hand corner of a shelter platform if i absolutely must. yes, i've had rain blow into a shelter in the smokies, but only the front part got wet. the top sleeping platform is high and dry. have never gotten much windblown rain in my hammock, even on some pretty hairy nights... you just have to batten down the sides really low, and you're fine. helps to be broadside to the wind too, but IMHO, it's your own fault if you get blown in on, for picking an unsheltered spot to hang in... most places i go, i can find a thicket or hillside to block the wind somewhat, at least enough to slow it down to where it becomes an 'overhead' rain, vs sideways windblown rain.
in response to an earlier poster, my cup of water sat on my NEW down bag for 2 hours, leaving only a damp spot. as my bag ages, the DWR treatment may lose some effectiveness. in fairness, i did not place the water over a seam, but in the middle of a 'pocket' of down. so yes, water will eventually soak through, i'm sure.
once a bag gets soaked, it can fully recover, but it will clump. that's what dryers are for, in towns on zero days. this is a little off the exact topic, but german bed comforters are almost exclusively down. they have special machines in their dry-cleaning places that are a combination vacuum cleaner/washer/dryer. when you turn in a quilt/comfortor, they rip the seam open where it was opened the last time, suck all the down out, wash and dry it, and then blow it back into the shell and sew it up again for you... pretty weird, but my relatives there say they get it done once every couple years... so my point is, yes, i think down can take the 'abuse' of getting wet and fully recover.
Footslogger
01-20-2006, 13:42
Have any of you down users ever had a problem with blowing rain in a shelter ? And i guess my next question would be exactly how wet does a down bag have to get before the performance level drops ? And if a down bag becomes thoroughly soaked does the down fully recover ? I would think it would clump near the baffles ....
================================
Closest I came to that was one night in the shelter just north of Stratton, ME. There were air leaks in the logs forming the shelter and the wind/rain was coming in. I just used my tent to block the holes and never had a problem. I also made a point of spreading my tyvek ground cloth on the floor of any shelter I slept in. Other than that ...the only other moisture issues related to my down bag were condensation inside my tent. I had sprayed a DWR coating on my bag before I left and the condensation just beaded up on the outer material and was easily wiped off with a bandana in the morning.
'Slogger
fivefour
01-20-2006, 14:11
What is DWR ?
Footslogger
01-20-2006, 14:15
What is DWR ?
============================
It stands for Durable Water Repellant. It is something generally sprayed on a sleeping bag or garment to help shed moisture. One common brand is Techtron.
'Slogger
Synthetic for me. Cost, maintenance, and I never met a goose I didn't like.
fivefour
01-20-2006, 16:24
Good point
down, unless your gonna be sleeping, out in the open, on rock outcroppings with no tent or something like that.
Check other posts and polls for what people carry. Down has it's advantages, and synthetic has it's advantages. Myself, it all depends on temperature. My winter bag is down, but my summer bag is synthetic.
fivefour
01-20-2006, 18:32
Thanks for the info guys ! I currently use synthetic but down just seems to pack so well and light.
Winter and summer bags are down.
I have read lots of opinions over the years concerning the comparisons of
synthetic and down bags.
Seems like the two big pluses folks assume that synthetic bags have over
a down bag are:
1) Price. I must admit most good down bags are pricey, but I did get a
decent summer weight down bag, ( I think they rated it at 40 degree, but I
would rate it at 50 degree at best) from Campmor a few years back for
$100 on sale and I do believe L.L. Bean has some good prices on down
bags.
2) The old "Well if it gets wet" argument. Supposedly the synthetic bag
offers more insulation than a down bag when wet. I personally believe the
jury is still out on this one. I can't quote nor remember some field test
results I ran across a few years back about this issue, but I do remember
that this gist of the test results report was that ANY WET sleeping bag just
isn't worth much in the keeping you warm factor and that drying times out
in the field didn't show any significant difference between the two
materials to be any significant factor.
Besides I haven't noticed ducks and geese switching over to man made
materials yet ... lol
This only validated what I already knew, "Keep my bag dry" no matter
what it's made from. I spent a year in rice paddy land with nothing more
than a poncho and poncho liner(synthetic) for shelter and always stayed
dry when I did sleep, which I admit wasn't often, but that's another story.
I suggest you take what your most comfortable with and what you can
afford. Although I highly recommend a good down bag at this point if you
can keep your stuff dry.
I did what one of the others posters did and will do it again as soon as I
get my new Sixmoons shelter. Set it up in the back yard, preferably on a
good windy day then use a combination of a sprinkler and one of my sons
with a hose turned on full blast and see if I can keep me and my stuff dry. I
practice getting in and out with my gear as well as leaving everything
inside the tent over night with the sprinkler on. Correcting bad technic or
fixing a leak sure is easier at the house than out in the boonies with a cold
rain blowing 50 mph or more.
If someone develops a really good synthetic bag that offers the same
rating and packability as down I will probably try to give it a test drive at
least. Until then it's me and my Feathered Friends in the winter time and
my WM when it warms up some.
Note: I plan on avoiding 'shelters' like the plague.... :o
I have NEVER gotten a bag wet from the outside (o.k., not since the late '60s in boy scouts). HOWEVER, I have hiked and slept in a bag for days with no off day to dry out the gear.
For me, the problem is body moisture and packing up in the morning without time on the line for the bag to dry out. Therefore, on a thru hike I would carry poly, on a section hike I would carry down.
SIMPLE RULE: SHORT TRIP...DOWN. LONG TRIP...POLY-FILL
Hypothermia is the number one cause of death along the AT, I have both a down and a synthetic bag. The down bag offers more warmth per oz, but if the down gets damp/wet its as hard as cotton to dry and will NOT keep you warm when wet. The synthetic, although heavier, is the safer choice when hiking the humid AT. It's easier to dry and does give warmth when wet. I usually carry my down bag on short trips or when car camping.
peter_pan
01-21-2006, 00:11
I prefer down for its highest warmth to weight factor and its best compressability and long life over synthetics.... DWR and modern materials do improve the moisture protection...Most wet bags I seen over the years were with inexperianced folk who chose poor tent sites and got ground soaked... often the culpret was the ground cloth sticking out to channel the run off under the tent or tent bottom...sorta operator head space issues...
Who ever mentioned the waterproof bag in the pack is right on...the second most common wettings IMHO occur in packs where folks thought the stuff sack (with the urathane coating, the old one with the cracking coating at that) alone would keep it dry...or depended on pack covers alone...
Finally, hammocks have it all over tents and tarps for insuring a high and dry camp.... ok , yes, some minimalist flys, if not properly hung will get you wet... Make that Hammocks with nice tarps eliminate the ground puddle problems.
BTW, I'm not biased because JRB makes down quilts....We make down quilts because we are biased to down.
Pan
2) The old "Well if it gets wet" argument. Supposedly the synthetic bag
offers more insulation than a down bag when wet. I personally believe the
jury is still out on this one. I can't quote nor remember some field test
results I ran across a few years back about this issue, but I do remember
that this gist of the test results report was that ANY WET sleeping bag just
isn't worth much in the keeping you warm factor You know, I've always wondered about this. I always had a synthetic bag for the warm-when-wet reason, but I've washed my bags a few times each and I have to say that I would not like to crawl into a dripping wet synthetic bag. Has anyone ever tried this, sleeping in a wet synthetic bag?
Hypothermia is the number one cause of death along the AT, I have both a down and a synthetic bag. The down bag offers more warmth per oz, but if the down gets damp/wet its as hard as cotton to dry and will NOT keep you warm when wet. The synthetic, although heavier, is the safer choice when hiking the humid AT. It's easier to dry and does give warmth when wet. I usually carry my down bag on short trips or when car camping.
I've backpacked for years with a down bag. With the usual precautions one would take with keeping anything dry, I have never had a problem. I am convinced that you would have to subject a down bag to horrendous conditions in order to render it useless. Considering the fact that most have excellent shelter options, I would say that if one was careful, down rules.
You know, I've always wondered about this. I always had a synthetic bag for the warm-when-wet reason, but I've washed my bags a few times each and I have to say that I would not like to crawl into a dripping wet synthetic bag. Has anyone ever tried this, sleeping in a wet synthetic bag?
It would be similar to having a wet cotton t-shirt on versus a wet synthetic one. The synthetic one would keep you much warmer and dry much faster, especially while wearing it. I've used both down and synthetic bags when just the body moisture has dampened them. It's the same principal. I wish it wasn't so because I really like the lighter down bag.
It would be similar to having a wet cotton t-shirt on versus a wet synthetic one. The synthetic one would keep you much warmer and dry much faster, especially while wearing it. I've used both down and synthetic bags when just the body moisture has dampened them. It's the same principal. I wish it wasn't so because I really like the lighter down bag.
Are you really making a fair comparison here ? I would have to disagree
with your "principal" of comparing synthetic and down bags with synthetic
and cotton shirts. Seems like an apples and oranges thing to me ?
Also one needs to know that not all synthetic nor down bags are created
the same. There are many different ways to make, chop and fill with
synthetics.
You keep humping your synthetic bag. I will stick with my nice warm,
much more packable down bags and just keep em dry.
A little FYI because of your comparison between Cotton and synthetic shirts.
I also Canoe quite a bit in the winter and have made it my business to
'know' what will save my life if I happen to take a cold unplanned swim in
Jan.. My own and other old timers personal test have proved to me that
nothing beats WOOL clothing wet or dry. I have and use lots of synthetic
clothing, including the over-priced Go-lite stuff, but it pales in comparison
to good wool. I ordered the smartwool t-shirt, and will leave Springer in it
this Feb, almost the day it hit the market 2 or 3 years back. I just checked
the Smartwool site and see that they now have the bottoms, which I just
ordered and will have in the pack as part of that all important dry outfit to
get into at days end on those rainy days. These modern day synthetics are
nice, but I have serious questions about over-all performance as well as
doubts to their durability when compared to wool and down. Cotton Kills,
Wool Warms, and actually wears cooler in warm weather than any
synthetic I have tried thus far.
Maybe it's the Epic coating on my FF bag ? , but i have never had one
moments problem with any kind of moisture except to shake some dew off
before getting out of it a few times in the early AM. Just lucky I guess.
keep your powder dry and good hiking to ya..
I never mentioned anything about WOOL. But, if you are telling me that wet down bags will keep you just as warm as a synthetic one, then you are WRONG!
http://www.ray-way.com/quilt/goosedown.shtml
http://www.discoveralberta.com/FeaturesReviews/TheBackcountry/8-35.html
And many other sites that talk about wet bags, hypothermia, etc
I never mentioned anything about WOOL. But, if you are telling me that wet down bags will keep you just as warm as a synthetic one, then you are WRONG!
http://www.ray-way.com/quilt/goosedown.shtml
http://www.discoveralberta.com/FeaturesReviews/TheBackcountry/8-35.html
And many other sites that talk about wet bags, hypothermia, etc
You introduced cotton in your "principle" when comparing synthetic and down bags. I just simply tried to add some more info. to the debate.
If you reread what I said, 'the jury is still out' , maybe you will realize that unlike some I just believe that any WET bag is'nt worth much for warmth and since in over 50 years of camping I have never had a WET sleeping bag I am just not going to be sold on giving up my DOWN bag by some 'Guru' that wants to scare folks into buying their philosophy and usually their products too. I see NO science or quantitative test mentioned by these 'Guru's' ?
I guess I just believe that since I advanced beyond my Tenderfoot badge over 45 years back that I can keep my bag dry. And a few self appointed gear gurus do not make a valid 'field test'. Also if I am so "WRONG" why do the largest majority of avid hikers, including those in the rainy northwest choose DOWN bags when cost isn't a factor ?
Unlike you knowing I am WRONG, I don't know if your WRONG or not, but I do know you haven't convinced me that I am, are to give up my down bag under any conditions. The 'jury' is still out for me, but I will see if I can find some non-Guru current test results somewhere when I get time, if ever.
By the way have you ever slept, or tried to sleep I should say, in either a wet synthetic or wet down bag ? How many times and under what conditions. How wet were the bags. What were the baffle configurations. Details, details da devil is in the Details !! lol
nuff said by me..
good hiking to ya...:cool:
But, if you are telling me that wet down bags will keep you just as warm as a synthetic one, then you are WRONG!Not to belabor the point (too late, I know) but this is the reverse of what was stated, that a synthetic bag might not keep you warm at all. The point was that everyone SAYS a wet synthetic bag is warm, but no one I know has actually soaked theirs and then crawled into it for a nice warm night's sleep. I know that even synthetics on winter hiking trips must be aired out to retain warmth, and that is just body moisture, not a soaking.
Wet synthetic bags may actually be warm, I don't know. But as an engineer I have to ask where the data is to support such a widely held yet unproven concept.
If you will wet your bag and sleep in it outside tonight, and report that your bag kept you comfy, then we will all know for sure. But I sure wouldn't do it.
Research the web concerning wet down versus wet synthetic. As I stated I own both down and synthetic bags of the highest quality and yes I have slept in both a damp synthetic bag as well as a down one. There is no comparison, the synthetic bag will save your life by keeping you warmer. Down is great in DRY cold weather, you take a chance in any other weather. Down has 0 insulation value when wet, will even lower your body temp by being so. Down takes much, much longer to dry than a synthetic one. Do the research! I'm just trying to warn some inexperienced hiker of the risk before they get into trouble.
hopefulhiker
01-21-2006, 10:37
Down is warmer and lighter. Once you go down you will never go back....
In order for a down sleeping bag to lose it's insulating properties it must absorb massive amounts of water. Like I said in my earlier post, if one takes the usual precautions this should never happen. A damp down bag is not the same as a soaking wet bag. I have had large amounts of dew totally wet out the shell of my down bag, but no change in preformance.:sun
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I see that the few thru hikers that respond to this thread seem to agree that a bag DOES get wet from body moisture. The rest INSIST that their bag never gets wet.
I HAVE SLEPT IN A WET DOWN AND A WET POLY FILL BAG. Also a wet cotton bag in the boy scouts.
The wet down bag was in the Marine Corps. 14 day march, no camp time. By day four the bag was damp from body moisture. By day 10 it was a worthless, heavy mass of .......
The wet poly fill bag was on the A.T. thru hike. After four days of rain, and no town days, the bag was quite damp. Really sucked crawling in but it WARMED UP QUICK!!!
NOW, UNDERSTAND, THE BAG WAS WET FROM BODY MOISTURE.
If you are to camp, well, any bag will work. Plenty of time to dry it out.
If you are thru hiking, then you are not camping. I am not trying to "sell" anybody on this, its just that the people that thru hike the trail in one year do not spend much time camping. They spend it walking. They get up first thing in the morning and pack up and do not unpack until that evening when they go to bed.
Remember, Thru Hiking is different than camping, or section hiking.
betic4lyf
01-21-2006, 20:43
one time camping with my dad, i borrowed his down sleeping bag. i woke up in the middle of the night, and couldnt breathe, it was like the asthma i had had until age three. could have been something else, but not being able to breathe is a problem.
C'est La Vie
01-21-2006, 23:02
I used down bags on my 2004 thru hike;a marmot "neverwinter", 30F rating, for most of the hike then a western mountaineer "versatlite", 10F rating, in December and January. Never had a problem with moisture and appreciated the light weight and compressibility of down.
.....The wet down bag was in the Marine Corps. 14 day march, no camp time. By day four the bag was damp from body moisture. By day 10 it was a worthless, heavy mass of ........
This is exactly the message I have been trying to relay. If you look at what the Canadian and Alaskan Survival/Rescue groups recommend for a wilderness trip they tell you to NOT use down bags OR jackets. I have a Western Mountaineering down bag and I use it only when taking short trips or car camping, it is simply the best for warmth and compressibility. When I thru-hiked the AT I carried a North Face Cats-Meow, a synthetic bag. And I can tell you I spent more than one night in it being damp to very damp, my body heat tended to dry the bag while still keeping me warm. For those experienced in carrying a down bag in rain/humid areas, I say good luck. Beginners and future AT thru-hikers can save a lot of money and possibly their life by getting a high quality synthetic bag over a down one, the negatives are a little extra weight and a little more space. A small price to pay for the added protection against hypothermia, the No 1 cause of death on the AT!!! Hikers if you don't believe this then DO THE RESEARCH!!!!
http://www.sonoransar.org/hypothermia.htm
Lumberjack
01-22-2006, 14:59
Synthetic. My choices are either to buy myself and three growing teens each an inexpensive synthetic sleeping bag or buy me a down bag that will last a lifetime. What fun would I have if I couldn't take them with me?
Ive raise a few myself.... really want me to answer that? :bse
The AT isnt a forced march, if yer bag starts to wet out you need to head to town or spend some time in the sun....
Sleeping in a wet bag is not good for any insulation type - find new sleeping arrangements.
Bags do pick up some water from sweating - keep it on the cool side or try out a vapor barrier. Sun drying helps too and can kill some mold growth (while destroying the fabric with UV).
Note to all.... Big agnes is seling a bag with a blend of down and synthetic fiber.....Comments?
.....you need to head to town or spend some time in the sun....
If it was as easy as this all the people who have DIED on the AT from Hypothermia would still be with us! It's usually too late "to head to town" when folks realize they are getting Hypothermic! They need first aid and quick!
I posted back a ways that i'd deliberately pooled water on my WM Caribou bag for 'hours'... did it again tonight, but counted this time! 3 hours. nothing went through, just a little damp on the outside.
on another note, if you're running into town every week to get chow, how hard could it be to find a dryer to throw your down bag into for a little while and dry it out (assuming it was damp from body moisture)?