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Puddle sleeper
01-18-2017, 13:01
When did the world become anti external frame? It's one thing to not use them but people always talk ill of them, but why?

Engine
01-18-2017, 13:11
People often exhibit negative attitudes regarding gear they haven't experienced. It's human nature I guess. As for external frames, they have some advantages over internal frame packs, especially when portaging or for hauling wild game out of the backcountry. They are also usually cooler on your back, which is really nice in the summer months. But, in terms of general comfort, the typical internal frame usually wins out.

I'm currently using the Zpacks Arc haul, which is really an external frame that wears like an internal.

DuneElliot
01-18-2017, 13:35
Bulkier and heavier and not as sleek-looking I guess. They are renowned for packing heavier gear well and since many people are going light-weight, or even ultra-light, they have no need for something that packs so much gear/weight. I think it becomes a "superior attitude" thing which is sad since they have their place, just like everything.

I also carry the Arc Haul which is as Engine said...external frame that carries better than, but wears like an internal frame.

Lyle
01-18-2017, 13:41
As someone who owns two Kelty's and has put MANY thousands of miles on them, I do not denigrate them. They are very capable when heavier loads are demanded, and are more comfortable in very hot weather.

That said, with all of today's ultralight gear that is available, they are too heavy and are overkill for the typical backpacker, myself included. Now if I were a videographer, who was carrying many pounds of extra gear, they would be a very serious consideration. Back when I used my frame packs, I was normally carrying 45 - 50 pounds of gear. Today I rarely carry more than 23 pounds, and mostly less, often in the teens. To put this light of gear into a 5 lb pack makes no sense.

For a number of years prior to their "demise", the manufacturers of frame packs abandoned any new research and development, thus they never modified to lighter weight versions. Some cottage manufacturers attempted it, but they overly complicated the process and never developed a reasonable alternative.

Frame packs are GREAT. They are just unnecessary the vast majority of the time. Plus, frameless, or internal frame packs do offer some undeniable advantages as well. Especially when it comes to maneuverability and balance. We always had to account for the extra forces that would attempt to toss us around on stream crossings and rock scrambles when using a frame pack. Wasn't insurmountable, but had to be learned and anticipated.

Hikingjim
01-18-2017, 13:46
Same reason I don't take myself to work in a minivan. No need, big and heavy

The main tools for the job are UL packs if you have all light gear, or more robust internal frame packs if you're packing 35-50 lbs+

Greenlight
01-18-2017, 14:10
I have a Kelty Trekker 65 external frame pack. I also have an Osprey Aether 60 internal frame pack. I like them both. The external frame pack weighs five pounds. The internal frame pack weights just under four pounds. The Kelty is great if I have a lot of stuff I can tie down to the frame to carry and don't mind being caught between the hurry-up sticker and the wait-a-minute vines. The Osprey moves with my form and hugs my body closer. Both are about the same when it comes to adjustability and customizing. That didn't used to be the case with externals, but with advancements in hip belt and shoulder straps, they're comparable. The Osprey does a good job of circulating air around my back, though it is still "wetter" than an external. My suspicion is that between the time internal frames became popular and suspension technology advanced, the internal frame already had a strong foothold. They just look "sexier" too. I would be surprised if external frames made a new dent in the market at this point, but as always, rock the kit that makes you happy, and HYOH.


When did the world become anti external frame? It's one thing to not use them but people always talk ill of them, but why?

rocketsocks
01-18-2017, 14:47
Same reason I don't take myself to work in a minivan. No need, big and heavy

The main tools for the job are UL packs if you have all light gear, or more robust internal frame packs if you're packing 35-50 lbs+Why, what's wrong with Minnie Van's? :D

Slo-go'en
01-18-2017, 16:02
External frame packs are good on trails where you don't need a lot of agility. On the rough trails like those we have here in New England, an internal frame makes it a lot easier.

rafe
01-18-2017, 16:46
I hiked for many years with an external frame pack. Took me forever to find an internal-frame pack that pleased me. I only made the switch nine or ten years ago.

External frame packs have several advantages -- lots of pockets, cool on the back (if they have a mesh backing), can carry huge loads comfortably.

Disadvantages: they don't fit as snugly, they shift around, they squeak. They tend to snag on stuff, and make you less agile (as Slo points out) -- you notice this most when you're scrambling over big rock humps, or really any time the walking is less than bolt upright.

yaduck9
01-18-2017, 18:21
As someone who owns two Kelty's and has put MANY thousands of miles on them, I do not denigrate them. They are very capable when heavier loads are demanded, and are more comfortable in very hot weather.

That said, with all of today's ultralight gear that is available, they are too heavy and are overkill for the typical backpacker, myself included. Now if I were a videographer, who was carrying many pounds of extra gear, they would be a very serious consideration. Back when I used my frame packs, I was normally carrying 45 - 50 pounds of gear. Today I rarely carry more than 23 pounds, and mostly less, often in the teens. To put this light of gear into a 5 lb pack makes no sense.

For a number of years prior to their "demise", the manufacturers of frame packs abandoned any new research and development, thus they never modified to lighter weight versions. Some cottage manufacturers attempted it, but they overly complicated the process and never developed a reasonable alternative.

Frame packs are GREAT. They are just unnecessary the vast majority of the time. Plus, frameless, or internal frame packs do offer some undeniable advantages as well. Especially when it comes to maneuverability and balance. We always had to account for the extra forces that would attempt to toss us around on stream crossings and rock scrambles when using a frame pack. Wasn't insurmountable, but had to be learned and anticipated.


+1

Back in the 80's I owned a Camp Trails Adjustable 2 , My friend had a North Face BackMagic, and one other had a camp Trails Internal Frame ( can't rememeber the model, it was one of the first ). for a tent I had a Eureka Timberline 6 lbs , a Camping Gaz Globetrotter stove w/ cookset was probably 2lbs, North Face Cats Meow 20 synthetic 3 lbs ............so before you knew it, your up around 40 or 50 lbs. On a well maintained trail the pack handled very well. It was when you went off trail or had to maneuver through a sporty section where the external would "swing" and you had to be ready for it. That was the big selling point for an Internal. There was some weight reduction with an Internal, at the time, but not all that much.

The only other thing was branches would tend to catch on the upper spreader bar and the sides, annoying

For a hoot, try to look up some old photography of early Mt Everest Expeditions and see the equipment they used.

Mags
01-18-2017, 18:51
Another advantage of an external frame pack: A GOOD quality external frame can often be found for $25 or so in a used sportings good store. Many older externals also weigh 3-4 lbs. Not bad at all.

For a person starting out on the typically well-maintained trails, the old warhorse works well without breaking the bank.

Would I use an external at this point? Probably not. If I was just starting out again and on a budget? Absolutely.

rafe
01-18-2017, 19:30
"Back in the 80's I owned a Camp Trails Adjustable 2"

I carried one of those on about 2/3 of the AT and hundreds of miles in the DAKs, White Mountains, etc.

1234
01-18-2017, 20:12
Nothing wrong with and external frame, camparing a big old 5.5 pound orprey to 5.5 lb external. The external will be much cooler. Now comparing a 3.5 lb external to a 3.5 lb ULA catalyst. Wow! amazing they both carry 25lb and one absorbs all your sweat while the other does not. So lets think trail weight after you hike 12 miles in 85 degree heat, I bet I can add 2-3 labs of sweat soaked up by the internal. I mean have you ever smelled and internal pack with 1,000 miles on it? Your body does not touch a external fram pack only the band which does not absorb water. I know which one is cooler and lighter. But do you? My daughter thru hiked in 2013 with a 3.5lb external and everybody said oh my what a tank all the while there Osprey was heavier, she keep her mouth shut and smiled and said I like it best. It is whever you like not a game of what is popular.

egilbe
01-18-2017, 20:16
I have a Seek Outside Unaweep. Weighs less than three pounds in Cuben Fiber hybrid. My go to pack for long backpacking trips.

rafe
01-18-2017, 22:04
Nothing wrong with and external frame, camparing a big old 5.5 pound orprey to 5.5 lb external. The external will be much cooler. Now comparing a 3.5 lb external to a 3.5 lb ULA catalyst. Wow! amazing they both carry 25lb and one absorbs all your sweat while the other does not. So lets think trail weight after you hike 12 miles in 85 degree heat, I bet I can add 2-3 labs of sweat soaked up by the internal.

2-3 lbs. of sweat absorbed into the pack? RU serious?

josh_ATL
01-18-2017, 22:23
Z Packs Arc packs are external frame pack and are some of the most popular ones on the trail. I still prefer frameless over internal or external.

daveiniowa
01-18-2017, 22:29
Started 20+ years ago with external. Still have an old one and got a new one last year. Wondering maybe I should get an internal just to see what all the hype is about. Looking at an osprey atmos 65 ag ??. a whole 9 oz lighter than my current external. stop the madness

MuddyWaters
01-18-2017, 22:36
Nothin wrong with external.
Carry cheap bulky gear best, which is why good for scouts.
Just not as compact and well balanced as internal frames, and some gear needs to go outside

Buy them for $25 used all day long.

OCDave
01-18-2017, 22:49
My REI Wonderland is LOUD and RAtttttTtTles and Squee- EE- EE -EE - ks all the way down the trail. After 20 years, I found a lightweight pack that was more comfortable and much more pleasant to carry. I might carry my old external frame on a single overnight trip but, never again will I carry on a multiday hike.

I could carry my old Eureka Timberline as well but, I won't

MuddyWaters
01-18-2017, 22:51
We played a joke on another scout leader on a trip once.
Filled his pack frame with several lbs of lead shot

With internal, just have to sneak rocks in

Feral Bill
01-18-2017, 23:48
My son uses the external I bought around 1972. I got a new hip belt a few years ago. Suits him fine. I went over to internals for skiing and bushwhacking, but would consider an external for trail walking anytime.

SWODaddy
01-19-2017, 00:19
I think external frame packs are underrated and underutilized in industry (most designs are 20yo legacy).

I just bought a Seek Outside Unaweep over Xmas which I'm really excited to try.

*Weighs under 3lbs with a 70l capacity. It can swallow a bear canister.
*external frame articulates, allowing more freedom of movement. But, it can still carry loads over 100lbs.
*removable pack bag is submersible waterproof after seam sealing.
*Hip belt and shoulder harness are more padded than any pack I've seen.

Dan Roper
01-19-2017, 01:46
I've been using a Jansport external frame pack since 1997. I love it and don't want anything else. In fact, I broke a strap near Damascus last summer while slipping on a slick hillside. It was my opportunity to try something new. But, as I said, I love my Jansport. I found an identical one online, bought it, and plan to use it for the next 20 years. I prefer external frame because they're cooler. I'm hot natured, so that's a key consideration. Also, I'm simply used to it, know it, and like it.

Last summer at Boots Off Hostel in Hampton, Tennessee, there were two of us men in our 50s and both using external frame packs for two decades. We felt sorta like the last of the breed.

LoneStranger
01-19-2017, 09:56
I think external frame packs are underrated and underutilized in industry (most designs are 20yo legacy).

I just bought a Seek Outside Unaweep over Xmas which I'm really excited to try.

*Weighs under 3lbs with a 70l capacity. It can swallow a bear canister.
*external frame articulates, allowing more freedom of movement. But, it can still carry loads over 100lbs.
*removable pack bag is submersible waterproof after seam sealing.
*Hip belt and shoulder harness are more padded than any pack I've seen.

That pack, simply put, rocks! Whether you are carrying 20lbs or 70lbs, it rides comfortably. It took me a while to get reorganized to use the one giant compartment effectively, but I rarely use any of my other packs after getting one of these built. Only issue I've found is in Winter where stacking stuff on top of the pack can be challenging compared to the old Kelty Super Tioga I used to use as a cold weather pack. Definitely an investment, but I'm betting you are going to love that thing.

gbolt
01-19-2017, 17:40
I carried an REI Wonderland Trekker for over 25 years. Bought it without a store and had to go to the catalog and call in the order on an old rotary phone. It's downfall was that it was 7lbs but carried 50 to 75 lbs without any problems. My back never got hot wearing it because of the wonderful mesh padding. It squeaked a lot, but that created a great hiking cadence almost like a metronome I occasionally train with now. I purchased a ULA Ohm 2.0 to force myself to drop weight and carry less! In the end, I just say that my External Frame got to heavy with all the memories stored in it!

oldwetherman
01-19-2017, 19:33
I'm giving another vote to the Seek Outside packs. I've tried Gossamer Gear, Osprey and ULA's. They are great with 15 or less pounds but for times when I'm going long distances with few resupply options I won't leave home without my Seek Outside. It can put all the weight evenly on my hips and it makes hiking much more pleasurable.

Lone Wolf
01-19-2017, 19:43
I've been using a Jansport external frame pack since 1997. I love it and don't want anything else. In fact, I broke a strap near Damascus last summer while slipping on a slick hillside. It was my opportunity to try something new. But, as I said, I love my Jansport. I found an identical one online, bought it, and plan to use it for the next 20 years. I prefer external frame because they're cooler. I'm hot natured, so that's a key consideration. Also, I'm simply used to it, know it, and like it.

Last summer at Boots Off Hostel in Hampton, Tennessee, there were two of us men in our 50s and both using external frame packs for two decades. We felt sorta like the last of the breed.

walked 10,000 AT miles with a Jansport D-2. i don't like internal frames even though i own one. a ULA. it's just OK

Grampie
01-20-2017, 11:25
I thru hiked with a Kelty external pack. it was a 70s vintage. Replaced the belts with new Kelty version and loved it. Looked at a lot of internal packs and stayed with my Kelty. It's now about now approaching 50 years old.
A lot of new hikers today figure that they have all the "light weight" gear a long distance hike will be easy. They soon find out that it's not the case. Going to the newer light weight packs is mostly a lot of manufactures hype for sales purposes.

johnspenn
01-20-2017, 12:13
I just bought a used ULA CDT and like it so far for short light trips. I have a previous model SMD Fusion 50L that I like, carries fairly heavy loads comfortably. A couple of different REI day packs.

Nothing will ever replace this beast though! When I know I will be "loaded for bear" and will have to carry it for a while, this one is my go-to. It has proven itself all over the world over the years and in many climates! I put my wife's Dueter 45+10, my SMD 50, our REI Flash 29, and my standard ALICE pack inside the beast to fill her out a little bit.


http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff241/SonuvaDawg/IMG-20160516-01408.jpg

DuneElliot
01-20-2017, 12:53
I have to admit that for all my love of my "external framed" Arc Haul I wish the belt was a little more robust and supportive. The belt is where it loses a lot of the carrying capability IMO.

runt13
01-20-2017, 13:15
37962Current pack, going to do the NJ section of the AT this September with it.
RUNT ''13''

saltysack
01-20-2017, 16:50
37962Current pack, going to do the NJ section of the AT this September with it.
RUNT ''13''

Is that a deer stand also....


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hikerhobs
01-20-2017, 18:44
I have two external frame packs I use, The Kelty Trekker 4000 and the Kelty Tioga 5500 both great packs.

ScareBear
01-20-2017, 19:20
Is that a deer stand also....


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You could put a pony keg on that thing!

eggymane
01-22-2017, 09:26
Little off topic- but is there anywhere to buy a seekoutside pack besides online? Specifically North Carolina or any of the surrounding states

Venchka
01-22-2017, 09:55
Little off topic- but is there anywhere to buy a seekoutside pack besides online? Specifically North Carolina or any of the surrounding states

Call Seek Outside.
Grand Junction, CO is a nice place to visit. You could demo the packs on real trails.
Wayne


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Engine
01-22-2017, 11:36
I have to admit that for all my love of my "external framed" Arc Haul I wish the belt was a little more robust and supportive. The belt is where it loses a lot of the carrying capability IMO. I agree, a couple more ounces of material on the belt would probably add 3-4 pounds to the upper limit of comfort. We did add the optional pad to the back of the belt on my wife's pack and she immediately noticed a big improvement.

kf1wv
01-22-2017, 19:54
Two years and about 2,000 miles with a Vargo Ti-Arc. I "Frankenpacked" it and really love my setup. It's not a pack that would appeal to most folks though.

runt13
01-23-2017, 07:11
LOL the pack can come off the frame so you can use it to haul out your game. However it can be used for hauling just about anything that your legs will allow. The pack can be used independently as well.

RUNT ''13''

DuneElliot
01-23-2017, 09:30
I agree, a couple more ounces of material on the belt would probably add 3-4 pounds to the upper limit of comfort. We did add the optional pad to the back of the belt on my wife's pack and she immediately noticed a big improvement.

The pad makes a difference. I ended up making my own because the additional pad from ZPacks wasn't working for me. The belt itself could just do with more structure or thickness.

Venchka
01-23-2017, 23:17
I was quite pleased with the ULA belt on my Catalyst at or near the 40 pound limit. I wonder if it could be used on the Z-Packs products?
Wayne


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DuneElliot
01-24-2017, 09:30
I was quite pleased with the ULA belt on my Catalyst at or near the 40 pound limit. I wonder if it could be used on the Z-Packs products?
Wayne


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It can't, I looked. The ZPacks' belt is attached to the bottom bar of the frame by a channel of dyneema. The Circuit's belt goes through a panel of fabric on the pack itself. I like the belt on the Arc Haul, but it is definitely the pack's weakest point as far as carry and comfort.

LittleRock
01-24-2017, 14:37
I carried a Jansport external frame pack for many years. Ended pretty much every day with a sore back. Switched to a Gregory internal frame pack about 5 years ago. Fits me like an exoskeleton. No more sore back.