View Full Version : In memory of nice things
Gambit McCrae
01-19-2017, 11:01
Is it just me or when someone says "I am looking for a GOOD, CHEAP widget", its like nails on a chalk board. I will go ahead and disclaim that yes I do understand that there are simple items out there, none mechanical, ridged items that can be scanted but what I am talking about are items that you depend on, that make life better.
"I am looking for a really good, really cheap tent." Says the guy that is laying face up to a drip on his face in a thunderstorm at 1 am in his "Really good, really cheap tent".
I personally have great satisfaction when laying in my tent, during an absolute down pour, bone dry. Almost a smile on my face thinking "Good on ya Al, money well spent". OR after a long day on the feet, 20 miles or so and pull the shoes off without pain "Good on ya Al, money well spent".
So if people are cheap skating their way thru life, (taking this further then backpacking gear), are they considerably more wealthy then I in the end? Or have they bought something cheap, it doesn't work out, so they buy cheap again, until they have ended up spending more then I did on my one, nice item.
Tires are a great example. There's a guy at work, and he runs thru tires like dirty socks, always at the tire shop getting USED tires...I pay for a set of Michelins once every 60,000 miles or more and never have issues.
I guess this is half a rant/ half wanting others opinions on the subject that I find so frustrating.
Puddlefish
01-19-2017, 11:25
We have no way of knowing if someone is being a cheapskate or is just poor. A surprise divorce and I hit a stage in my life when I didn't have the cash for four new tires, and I had a junker of a car that chewed through tires. Once you get behind the curve it takes a while to catch up. It took me years of skimping on everything just to feed my kids. I had zero hobbies.
Maybe buying a junker of a tent at the time would have improved my mental health. One can know the economic theory of lasting value, yet be far away from achieving it. Just consider yourself as fortunate and maybe worry less about how other people spend their money?
Yup, good and cheap don't mix well. That's why it's so expensive to be poor.
Gambit McCrae
01-19-2017, 11:29
We have no way of knowing if someone is being a cheapskate or is just poor. A surprise divorce and I hit a stage in my life when I didn't have the cash for four new tires, and I had a junker of a car that chewed through tires. Once you get behind the curve it takes a while to catch up. It took me years of skimping on everything just to feed my kids. I had zero hobbies.
Maybe buying a junker of a tent at the time would have improved my mental health. One can know the economic theory of lasting value, yet be far away from achieving it. Just consider yourself as fortunate and maybe worry less about how other people spend their money?
Opened my eyes a little bit....Thank you for sharing
swisscross
01-19-2017, 11:36
We have no way of knowing if someone is being a cheapskate or is just poor?
Interesting.
I am not cheap or poor yet I buy USED tires for both my cars.
I have purchased some that still have the little rubber nibs on them.
One might get 60,000 miles on a new set of Michelins spending say 800 dollars while I get some 30 to 40,000 on a set that cost 100 dollars.
I don't see how that is being cheap or poor. I see that is a wise investment. Spending 800 to me is wasteful.
Hikingjim
01-19-2017, 11:44
I lived with years with my daughter and almost no extra money to spend. We still hiked/camped with whatever stuff we could afford. Did I know that the crap tent I was buying didn't make sense in a spreadsheet, amortized over 27.2 years? Yes.
People learn through experience that cheap stuff often doesn't last and how to be savvy shoppers, but it's a luxury to be able to shell out lots of money on items you expect to last decades.
I still buy used tires. There are enough people out there that swap their cars all the time and have no use for them. Got snow tires with rims and about 2,000 km of use for $200 in November. Would have cost around 1k new (CDN)
But yeah, I don't buy junk stuff that will fall apart anymore because I have enough spare cash to invest long-term.
Gambit McCrae
01-19-2017, 11:46
Interesting.
I am not cheap or poor yet I buy USED tires for both my cars.
I have purchased some that still have the little rubber nibs on them.
One might get 60,000 miles on a new set of Michelins spending say 800 dollars while I get some 30 to 40,000 on a set that cost 100 dollars.
I don't see how that is being cheap or poor. I see that is a wise investment. Spending 800 to me is wasteful.
Someone had to be wasteful for you to get used tires correct? "not necessarily someone could buy a new car and replace Stock tires/ total their car" etc etc I get that and those are not the mean reason so exclude them form response
swisscross
01-19-2017, 12:07
Someone had to be wasteful for you to get used tires correct? "not necessarily someone could buy a new car and replace Stock tires/ total their car" etc etc I get that and those are not the mean reason so exclude them form response
I don't really follow your response but I was not trying to point you out per se.
My response was not meant to be taken personable, please don't let it be.
Just defending the relevancy of ones decision to purchase something used.
I am that person whom research's everything I purchase. To a point it drives my wife and children nuts.
Always buying the BEST I can afford knowing it will last and make me and my family happy for the long haul.
Traveler
01-19-2017, 12:21
This is kind of like the business conundrum. There is better, faster, cheaper, but you can only have two out of the three. There are trade offs for each combination.
Gambit McCrae
01-19-2017, 12:26
I don't really follow your response but I was not trying to point you out per se.
My response was not meant to be taken personable, please don't let it be.
Just defending the relevancy of ones decision to purchase something used.
I am that person whom research's everything I purchase. To a point it drives my wife and children nuts.
Always buying the BEST I can afford knowing it will last and make me and my family happy for the long haul.
Didn't take it personal at all, just saying that if EVERYONE bought used tires, there would be no used tires for you to buy. You have to have the wasteful, "buy the best" people upfront, in order for you to save money down the road. Thus buying used should be illegal lol jk
... Almost a smile on my face thinking "Good on ya Al, money well spent"...
If I understood you correct, for the decade I spent the better part of my life travelling by motorcycle I many times had the very same feeling: The great joy of having The Good Stuff (the bike it is), rolling on and carrying me safely towards the edge of the world. And it wasn't even expensive.
Strange enough I don't have the same way of thinking while hiking. I buy what I think is best for my need, and just use it. Happyness comes from hiking itself, not from the stuff I carry.
johnnybgood
01-19-2017, 12:40
A set of Michelins for my car would be like putting lipstick on a pig but I get the jist of what you're saying.
A little patience and gear research will result in buying quality stuff discounted (eg. discontinued models) or simply waiting till a good sale comes along.
I'm all about saving money with a patience and using common sense.
Flame me if you like. This is not a hiking thread, it is just an argument.
Gambit McCrae
01-19-2017, 12:51
Flame me if you like. This is not a hiking thread, it is just an argument.
You ol grouch, its a general discussion with an initial relevance to decision making when buying quality hiking gear. I know why your name is storm because you rain on others parades? Go be scrooge elsewhere.
It is not an argument, it has been enlightening so buzz off
garlic08
01-19-2017, 13:02
The miserly man spends the most. There's a huge difference between poor and miserly.
A couple things already stated really ring true. It's expensive to be poor, only the poor pay full retail. And "better, faster, cheaper, pick any two."
Once, bailing out from a trip, I checked bus fare but found a better deal renting a car one-way and rode in ease and luxury. I could do that because I had a credit card and preferred customer status from business trips. If I'd been poor, I'd have spent more money for a lousy all night ride on the dirty dog. That opened my eyes a bit.
I think this emblematic of what is wrong with our society. Why does it matter to you if someone else does something different than you do? Why does it bother you so much? Ever think that maybe the person who goes cheap thinks you're very foolish and wasting your money but is too polite to tell you what they think about you?
Gambit McCrae
01-19-2017, 14:20
I think this emblematic of what is wrong with our society. Why does it matter to you if someone else does something different than you do? Why does it bother you so much? Ever think that maybe the person who goes cheap thinks you're very foolish and wasting your money but is too polite to tell you what they think about you?
Well for several reasons:
1 - When people Do baulk at the Price tag of an item I may own. (yes they have a right to do so)
2-when there cheapness effects me ie when I go on a trip with someone new and say they chose to buy cheap shoes that blow out on them and in return we are forced to quit the trip early. Or maybe I invite someone new on a trip and in return they want to drive just to have one of their cheap tires blow out on the interstate stalling or canceling the trip.
3-WhenI am selling something online and an individual shoots me a message offering me half of my already greatly discounted asking price...It is a peeve.
In general it does not effect me it is more of a peeve. It is equally a peeve when people ask for advice and use the term I have used above "Looking for a great, super cheap widget", that's like planting doodoo seeds expecting a diamond tree.
You get what you pay for and I do understand people are on different budgets BUT, if your budget RIGHT NOW is 100 for a tent, you got that first hundred right? so why not save that 100 till you have another hundred to go with it, or another 200, And buy once and get yourself something that will last.
I created this in order to either have an eye opener for myself, or to learn that others are on the same page. I feel that I am definitely an outlier in thinking this way and need to learn to not care how others spend their money even if it does indirectly effect me.
I like the Tire analogy, however short sighted. Hear me out.
I drive a Jeep Wrangler, have for some time. Many people get a Jeep because of its nearly endless ways of making modifications. One of the first things to go is the stock tires. This is not wasteful, now another person perhaps a little less fortunate can buy these virtually new tires (many with less than 2k miles) for 3 or 4 hundred for a set of 4 instead of $900. So, the idea of making buying used illegal is well ……
The same principal works for hiking gear. Say a guy gets a top of the line tent. Has it out a few nights and for whatever reason finds it is not to his liking. So, now he would like to get a different top of the line tent, but spent his gear money on a tent he does not like. Does he just burn the tent and start saving for a new one from scratch? Of course not! He comes to WB offers it up for sale at discounted price so he can put that money toward a different tent. Now some lowlife comes along and buys the used tent, usually at a significant discount….. I think I hear echoes from a chalkboard rumbling down a valley somewhere.
Not trying to pick on you McCrae, and congratulate you for being able to get the good stuff right off the bat. No everyone has that option.
V8
Puddlefish
01-19-2017, 15:28
It took me until about age 35 before I worked out the whole context and empathy thing. The best way of doing things for me, isn't likely the best way of doing things for you.
To use the $100 tent example. Why not wait and buy a $200 tent? Maybe it took a year of scrimping to save that $100, maybe they aren't really even sure they're going to enjoy camping. Maybe they recognize that the value of that tent plummets by 30% the second it's driven off of the lot.
I brought an old girlfriend hiking, she showed up in heeled biker boots. It was what she had. I adjusted the mileage on the spot. I was just pleased she wanted to spend time with me. It didn't occur to me to question her buying choices.
Context and empathy are at the heart of the HYOH message, at least to me. I try not to assume that people are making better, or worse choices than I'm making. I certainly love giving opinions, but I try to give enough context to show my choice works for me and your mileage might vary.
This is indeed an important thread.
Younger readers may not remember the days when the race-to-the-bottom equipment was not so prominent in the market. The saying is "cheap people pay twice". So true, unless you don't get a chance to buy twice because you died due to cheap equipment failure.
Personally I try to find what I want, with decent quality. Price is secondary. Perhaps this is a privileged attitude, but I would probably not take part in the activity at all if I had to use the lowest level of items available. Even the cheap army surplus gear that I started with in the late 1960's was superior to the lowest priced Chinese gear today. Good luck with that stuff.
Pondjumpr
01-19-2017, 16:47
I like using the term "value" when speaking of equipment or tools, etc. I have always been someone to value function over form every time. That includes clothing, gear, etc. I have spent less money on many items that have lasted a very long time. In general, these items must have a very similar function to the more expensive option. A most recent example is tumbler cups. I was given a Yeti tumbler in 20 oz and it was a great cup. As frugal as I am, I would say that this cup was worth every penny that anyone ever paid for it. That is... until all the knock offs came out and performed similarly, even equally. I bought a $8 20 oz version from a big box store and tested it against my name brand. There is no difference. I don't care about a brand so I would never buy the name brand again.
Outdoor gear... You can often get good quality on the cheap. Yes, even the stuff from china can be decent quality. However, you will usually sacrifice something whether it be weight through use of different materials, versatility due to poor design, etc. A cheap sub- $100 tent has kept me dry many nights but I would never carry it on my back because it is made for car camping, not backpacking.
Tires... let's be serious. No one buys used tires because they are the best option. People buy used because they can't shell out $800 for tires. I have bought used tires in the past but they have been take-offs from 4WD vehicles with tons of life left. I paid $550 for a set of Michelin LTX, with rims for my truck. I drove them for 2 years and sold that set for $500. That is the exception, not the rule. In general, I buy Michelins because the difference in that $100 tire and the $200 Michelin is worth it. My family is in my vehicle often and they are worth a little extra money to me. Peace of mind, if you will. (Look up tire speed rating, safety and performance the next time you consider buying used tires)
But regarding equipment, you really have to look at comfort as a huge factor that you can't place a value on. Does that mean better design in a pair of boots? lighter materials so you are less fatigued? Better waterproofing materials that not only keep you dry but warm and possibly keep you alive.
Look at some of the gear you have in your closet. I bet a lot of it is 10+ years old. Then think of the cost of some of the more expensive, items and do a little division. My $200 pair of Kangaroo Upland hunting boots has cost me about $20 per year to use, enjoy and I love them. Would I have benefited greatly from only buying a $100 pair of boots? maybe but I certainly wouldn't have that $100 bill in my pocket but I know exactly where those lightweight upland boots are. :)
In my opinion, there are four items in three-season backpacking that are actually where money should be the least important factor. Assuming a budget for such a product:
1. Sleeping Bag/quilt
2. Shoes
3. Pack
4. Information
This is not to say that well-worn and usually ill-used chestnut of "you get what you pay for " is the overriding concern. Rather that money is ideally the least concern vs fit, functionality, quality, etc.
More blabberings in detail:
http://www.pmags.com/what-not-to-dirtbag
I have NO interest in how other spend, and I'm sure all but one or two here outspend me. If anything, I'm glad they spend, because spending money usually implies spending time working (or having spent time working), which leaves the outdoors generally less crowded. More space to seek awareness...of our natural environment and of my own insignificance.
The one fallacy I see in this thread is that quality costs more. It need not. But ours is a consumer-driven society, and we tend to believe what we're told, and what we're sold.
When I am thinking about dropping some serious coin just to shave a few ounces off my overall load, I have to remind myself that that money would be better spent on food or drink during my next excursion. Those social (or not so social) moments are what build memories, and memories are why I travel and hike (and ski, and cycle, and motorcycle, and sail, and surf, and climb, and...). I'm sure most of us here have more backpacks than we could ever use at once. I got more joy from donating my extras to a local boyscout crew, and watching them use and abuse the stuff, than I ever got from it.
My existing backpacking get-up, minus shoes, socks and foam sleeping mats, is approaching 17,000 miles of use, and looks to have another 7,000 or 8,000 miles left in it. Better yet, most of it was purchased secondhand (gear swaps, thrift stores, online, etc) and ran me far less than $1,000. But I'll never judge someone for spending their hard-earned (or easy-earned) money the way they want; I only question why they'd spend their time in a manner they may not want to. And from the looks (and sounds) of it, most people seem to hate their jobs. Sadly, so many of them tend to think that spending is their reward, but it only perpetuates the cycle.
atraildreamer
01-19-2017, 18:36
Yup, good and cheap don't mix well. ...
Yard sales often have good items, very cheap. A lot of the sellers don't have a clue about the value of what they are trying to unload for a quick buck.
atraildreamer
01-19-2017, 18:42
Interesting.
I am not cheap or poor yet I buy USED tires for both my cars.
I have purchased some that still have the little rubber nibs on them.
One might get 60,000 miles on a new set of Michelins spending say 800 dollars while I get some 30 to 40,000 on a set that cost 100 dollars.
I don't see how that is being cheap or poor. I see that is a wise investment. Spending 800 to me is wasteful.
A local used tire dealer told me, when I was buying a set of used tires, that he was selling a trailer truck load of used tires every other day. Most of his cash-strapped customers were trying to keep their vehicles on the road in face of the 2008 recession. BTW, the 4 tires cost me $175, and gave me 3 years of heavy use.
lonestarrunner
01-19-2017, 19:04
I like using the term "value" when speaking of equipment or tools, etc. I have always been someone to value function over form every time. That includes clothing, gear, etc. I have spent less money on many items that have lasted a very long time. In general, these items must have a very similar function to the more expensive option. A most recent example is tumbler cups. I was given a Yeti tumbler in 20 oz and it was a great cup. As frugal as I am, I would say that this cup was worth every penny that anyone ever paid for it. That is... until all the knock offs came out and performed similarly, even equally. I bought a $8 20 oz version from a big box store and tested it against my name brand. There is no difference. I don't care about a brand so I would never buy the name brand again.
Outdoor gear... You can often get good quality on the cheap. Yes, even the stuff from china can be decent quality. However, you will usually sacrifice something whether it be weight through use of different materials, versatility due to poor design, etc. A cheap sub- $100 tent has kept me dry many nights but I would never carry it on my back because it is made for car camping, not backpacking.
Tires... let's be serious. No one buys used tires because they are the best option. People buy used because they can't shell out $800 for tires. I have bought used tires in the past but they have been take-offs from 4WD vehicles with tons of life left. I paid $550 for a set of Michelin LTX, with rims for my truck. I drove them for 2 years and sold that set for $500. That is the exception, not the rule. In general, I buy Michelins because the difference in that $100 tire and the $200 Michelin is worth it. My family is in my vehicle often and they are worth a little extra money to me. Peace of mind, if you will. (Look up tire speed rating, safety and performance the next time you consider buying used tires)
But regarding equipment, you really have to look at comfort as a huge factor that you can't place a value on. Does that mean better design in a pair of boots? lighter materials so you are less fatigued? Better waterproofing materials that not only keep you dry but warm and possibly keep you alive.
Look at some of the gear you have in your closet. I bet a lot of it is 10+ years old. Then think of the cost of some of the more expensive, items and do a little division. My $200 pair of Kangaroo Upland hunting boots has cost me about $20 per year to use, enjoy and I love them. Would I have benefited greatly from only buying a $100 pair of boots? maybe but I certainly wouldn't have that $100 bill in my pocket but I know exactly where those lightweight upland boots are. :)
+1 regarding value
peakbagger
01-19-2017, 19:06
My theory is when gearing is to buy last years equipment of the year. A year ago it was cutting edge and is mostly likely still darn close and usually I can get it on sale. The other advantage is on occasion the latest and greatest may have not worked out and usually in a year or so I will hear about it.
When I first moved up to the whites, LL Beans has just opened their first and only factory outlet away from Freeport. One of the traditions of LL Beans is their employees trial new gear for possible inclusion into catalog. When the employees were requesting gear for testing they tended to go for the high end stuff. They would use it for a week and on occasion the gear would make it up to their outlet. If any high end gear was returned by customers, it usually made it up to the outlet also. Once it landed at the outlet, it never left, they would just keep marking it down. I got lot of high end gear that way. I think my best score was a -30 degree Caribou sleeping bag for $50 the weekend before fourth of July. Its definitely not a lightweight bag but is great for winter camping.
Sometimes you get what you pay for. But sometimes you get more, or less.
Eureka brand tents for example -- I've had excellent luck with them. Not every item has to be top-dollar.
Campmor has decent generic (house brand) gear at very low prices.
TexasBob
01-22-2017, 21:12
.......I personally have great satisfaction when laying in my tent, during an absolute down pour, bone dry. Almost a smile on my face thinking "Good on ya Al, money well spent". OR after a long day on the feet, 20 miles or so and pull the shoes off without pain "Good on ya Al, money well spent". ...........
Everyone has a cost/value trade off mental calculation that they make when they face a buying decision. It is a very individualized thing. What seems reasonable to you seems foolish to someone else and vice versa. It sounds like you are happy with your purchases, let it go at that. It is a HYOH type thing.
"I am looking for a GOOD, CHEAP widget" is similar in my mind as saying "I am looking for mediocrity" or "I am looking for "good" without having to impart much effort or resources."
Aa an aside, although the overwhelming majority see recession as a bad thing for their finances with a different mindset and changing of wealth creation approaches it's a GREAT time to reap huge financial gain.
Sometimes you get what you pay for. But sometimes you get more, or less.
Eureka brand tents for example -- I've had excellent luck with them. Not every item has to be top-dollar.
Campmor has decent generic (house brand) gear at very low prices.
That would be one to agree with - our Scout group has a bunch of the green (Timberline) ones, the first of which are now in the 20 year old range. They don't all get used all the time, but only one of a dozen has gotten to a point of which it would need a serious repair that isn't worth doing cost wise, and all of these were from the "seconds" sales they have (or had) at the factory and so were definitely cheap in the price range.
Now one would also note they aren't the best for backpacking (due to weight) but that is why the Scouts (and leaders) have the option to buy/bring their own gear if they wish to :) - and if nothing else they are good for the car camping type sites.
Yard sales often have good items, very cheap. A lot of the sellers don't have a clue about the value of what they are trying to unload for a quick buck.
I have a theory about garage/yard sale prices. $5 or less. Higher prices don't sell. Most sellers know full well what their items are worth. Most buyers are resellers and won't pay what something is worth.
Wayne
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
when people in this thread are bringing up brands like eureka and timberline to me those arn't ultra light weight but arn't what the op was talking about gearwise as they are heavier but still high quality tents. compared to say the 20 dollar Wal-Mart tents vs those brands. The Wal-Mart tents are very cheep and not only provide more weight but also the quality of them is significantly less then others and will make peoples experiences much less enjoyable with less then ideal weather which will occur over thru hikes but even over weeklong trips wherever.
you can get cheaper without giving up too much quality for items but when you are digging for complete bargains that save 100s of dollars you are looking for a free lunch.
As the saying goes, "there's no such thing as a free lunch"
We have no way of knowing if someone is being a cheapskate or is just poor?
Interesting.
I am not cheap or poor yet I buy USED tires for both my cars.
I have purchased some that still have the little rubber nibs on them.
One might get 60,000 miles on a new set of Michelins spending say 800 dollars while I get some 30 to 40,000 on a set that cost 100 dollars.
I don't see how that is being cheap or poor. I see that is a wise investment. Spending 800 to me is wasteful.
I used to have a similar philosophy about car maintenance. Why spend all that money on routine maintenance , like oil changes every few thousand miles? Just keep driving, and if something goes wrong, take care of it then.
That kind of thinking proved to not work out for me so good. ?
The Wal-Mart tents are very cheep and not only provide more weight but also the quality of them is significantly less then others and will make peoples experiences much less enjoyable with less then ideal weather which will occur over thru hikes but even over weeklong trips wherever. ...As the saying goes, "there's no such thing as a free lunch"
Back near the turn of this century a guy named 'Wal-Mart Joe' hiked the entire AT with nothing but gear from Wal-Mart, including tent. He did the PCT the following year, with almost all the same equipment.
Thinspace
01-23-2017, 18:15
This thread reminds me of a quote from one of fly fishing Author John Gierach's books (and I'm totally paraphrasing here but you get the sentiment) Someone asked him "You drive a beat up 20 year old pick with bald tires so how can you afford all this high end fly fishing equipment?" to which he replied "Isn't it obvious?"
This thread reminds me of a quote from one of fly fishing Author John Gierach's books (and I'm totally paraphrasing here but you get the sentiment) Someone asked him "You drive a beat up 20 year old pick with bald tires so how can you afford all this high end fly fishing equipment?" to which he replied "Isn't it obvious?"
Helping a buddy move, I asked how he could possibly own five backpacks.
"Because I sold two," he replied.
LittleRock
01-24-2017, 14:57
I started out hiking with all cheap gear about 15 years ago. Since then, I've replaced literally everything with more expensive, higher quality gear. But not all at once, obviously. One year I bought a new pack, another I bought a UL tent, etc. And to be fair, quite a bit of the gear I own now didn't exist 15 years ago. :-)
I'd NEVER recommend going out and buying a bunch of expensive equipment to a new hiker. If you go out on your first hike with cheap gear and still enjoy it, you can always buy better stuff later. But if you buy a bunch of expensive gear and don't enjoy it, then you're hosed.
Back near the turn of this century a guy named 'Wal-Mart Joe' hiked the entire AT with nothing but gear from Wal-Mart, including tent. He did the PCT the following year, with almost all the same equipment.
That just goes to show that some people can do it with anything