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View Full Version : Protect Mount Washington!! Help save the alpine!



chrismagness
02-03-2017, 12:57
Protect Mount Washington is a volunteer based grassroots campaign. We're putting forth an immense effort to halt the Cog and its luxury resort. The time is now! Don't let Wayne Presby gain momentum. We need your donation to help with attorney's fees and community outreach.

https://www.protectmountwashington.org/donate/

Tipi Walter
02-03-2017, 14:37
Only traitors to America the Beautiful would think of building a luxury lodge on top of Mt Washington. Isn't the railway and the car road going to the top bad enough??

It never ceases to amaze me to see our sacred natural places developed for the rolling couch potatoes we call Tourists. How Mt Washington every got developed in the first place should be carefully studied and the people responsible for the blight prosecuted---if they are still alive. Why are we always having to fight tooth and nail to keep our wild places intact and wild? Why are our last wild lands always subject to the onslaught of yet more clever drooling engineers with blueprints and grand demonic plans???

The hardest words in the English language? Leave It Alone.

Thinspace
02-03-2017, 16:08
And up here in NH we're facing Northern Pass which would cut a swatch through some of the most beautiful vistas in the state including the White Mountains and the north country to put up massive power lines running from Quebec all the way through the state. There's a huge grass roots opposition but not as organized or well financed as the power company is. The proponents could care less about the value of unspoiled wilderness and they will never get it. It isn't a done deal yet but I'm afraid it will be built in the end. When they built the Seabrook nuke plant in the 70's the opposition was immense, huge demonstrations from a very vocal and organized resistance, the town of Seabrook voted it down numerous times but in the end the power company $$ won out.

Miner
02-03-2017, 16:18
There is already an oversize set of buildings on top of Mt. Washington with commercial activities. I went to the website you linked. I can't find a map showing where the new development is located in relation to the cog railway and the existing structures. In fact, I couldn't find anything about what they are building other then a Sq.Ft. figure. How is this any worse then whats already there? Give details rather than just an emotional reaction of development is bad. If the mountain wasn't already developed, then an emotional reaction is enough. But that isn't the case here.

Also, if I'm expected to donate and not just sign a petition (which I'm surprised there isn't one linked to on the website), I would like an idea of what my money is going to be used for. There are some charities and causes that eat of most of the money they raise on "expenses" so very little money actually gets spent on what people gave for. Being a new group with no track record, there needs to be some disclosure of what they are going to use the funds for. I give a lot to charity and causes I believe in every year. But I've learned you can't just donate to just anyone that asks for what seems like a good thing.

Tipi Walter
02-03-2017, 17:19
There is already an oversize set of buildings on top of Mt. Washington with commercial activities. How is this any worse then whats already there? Give details rather than just an emotional reaction of development is bad. If the mountain wasn't already developed, then an emotional reaction is enough. But that isn't the case here.



Anything more than what's already there is worse. And HOW the mountain got developed should be studied by every outdoorsman in the area---because they'll do it again on some other mountain.

And here's a novel thought for the Mammal Human---How about we remove the railway and the buildings and close the superfluous road and restore Mt Washington to what it could be and was for the last 20,000 years?? Sure, we can choose to defile a landscape with our infant toys, but we can also choose to remove our trinkets and stop the madness. Both are human choices.

Tipi Walter
02-03-2017, 17:35
What's extreme is building a cog railway AND a tourist road to the top of Mt Washington. And now a luxury vacation lodge? Can a place not be left alone and left as is?? "No, it cannot".

Slo-go'en
02-03-2017, 17:38
The proposed building is located about a mile down from the summit, but still above tree line and in an area of fragile alpine tundra. It's hard enough to keep hikers who should know better from wandering off the trail and trampling the fragile soil. At least now the tourons stick to the top of the rock pile where they can't do any damage.

A neighbor of mine works for the cog railroad as an engineer on the train. He says the winds at that spot can be insanely intense. They actually had the roof of one of the carriages ripped off by the wind at that spot. It's a really, really bad idea to build something in that spot.

Development at the summit of Mt Washington started in the late 1800's and wasn't limited to just Washington. Several of the peaks sported hotels which thankfully are now all long gone. Washington remains the only peak in NH with development and road to the top. The auto road and the cog remain on private land.

Tipi Walter
02-03-2017, 17:46
The proposed building is located about a mile down from the summit, but still above tree line and in an area of fragile alpine tundra. It's hard enough to keep hikers who should know better from wandering off the trail and trampling the fragile soil. At least now the tourons stick to the top of the rock pile where they can't do any damage.

A neighbor of mine works for the cog railroad as an engineer on the train. He says the winds at that spot can be insanely intense. They actually had the roof of one of the carriages ripped off by the wind at that spot. It's a really, really bad idea to build something in that spot.

Development at the summit of Mt Washington started in the late 1800's and wasn't limited to just Washington. Several of the peaks sported hotels which thankfully are now all long gone. Washington remains the only peak in NH with development and road to the top. The auto road and the cog remain on private land.

So let me get this straight. We're not supposed to set up tents and camp on fragile alpine tundra. AND YET a 26,000 sq foot luxury lodge is being considered for construction on this same fragile alpine tundra??? So I could've been camping on these spots all along??? What's my tent gonna do compared to a luxury lodge??

"Oh no, Walt. They'll be environmentally sensitive when they construct this blight, and the bulldozed road up to it will meet all necessary permit qualifications. It'll be legal, friend."

Well, in that case what's not to like?? And if there's no road needed to the lodge, well, shouldn't we hope the cog railway is used 50% more so we can bring more air and noise pollution as high up the mountain as possible??

peakbagger
02-03-2017, 18:46
Putting Tipi's platitudes aside, barring a major shift in public policy the real story is that the Cog was there long before the WMNF and like it or not the Cog is on private property along with the autoroad. We are on the tail end of a interglacial period and the entire region at some point will be under a glacier so mother nature may eventually implement Tipi's wishes, albeit long after we are gone. The balance of the summit was private property until it was sold to the state of NH which has continued to develop the summit to support tourist interests. Unless either the state or federal government elect to seize the private land and compensate the owners for the lost value, the private owners have the right to do what they want to with their property as long as its within applicable county regulations. There is no local government entity as the proposed area is in what is called an unincorporated territory that has never opted for local government as realistically there are no local residents. The county does have regulations and in order for anything to be built, the Cog has to make an application which as of this date they have not done so. Since there is no application there has been no ability for the public to directly comment on the application.

The verbal description of the location is somewhere west of the summit in the area of a former rail switch. It appears to be immediately adjacent to the West side trail although other descriptions seem to indicate it being slightly west of there. The cog right of way is not pristine, the prior owners used it as dump for old rail ties and as it was and partially still is a coal fired steam train, the ground is littered with coal and coal ash. There is also a power line right of way that was excavated up the side of the mountain several years ago. It was on private land and the state was involved so great care was not taken to prevent long term damage to the alpine zone. (the state has a not so proud tradition of ignoring environmental regulations when doing construction work on state controlled jobs) The current owners have been cleaning up this area but it is a very obvious strip of damage through a very pristine area of rare alpine environment. There is some confusion on the location as the anti cog folks have elected to call this area the "Alpine Garden". Despite their wishes to the contrary, the Alpine Garden on Mt Washington is on the other side of the summit roughly centered to either side of the Alpine Garden trail. Some of the photographs used as backdrops appear to have been taken from the actual Alpine Garden. This does not mean that there are not collections of rare and potentially beautiful plants in the cog area, the entire summit ridge is awash in these plants (which tend to be long gone by the time thru hikers make it through the area). A section of the AT has been relocated away from some of the rarer plant habitat to allow them to recover and Lake of the Crowds hut is located smack in the middle of one of the rarest habitats. To date I have not seen if there is potential to stop the cog project due to the presence or potential for endangered plants. The AMC has actively been breeding and reintroducing colonies of the most rare plants along the ridgeline so I expect that at best the cog owners may have to contribute to habitat restoration elsewhere. Given the damage in the area which extends outside of the 100 foot right of way in places, the number of rare colonies may be pretty minimal.

There are two county boards staffed with appointed members of the public who have the most control of the project. The members serve terms and are appointed by elected county commissioners. There is no direct control of the project by the state or federal government. The state does have the right to comment on fire safety and review and approve plans for sewerage disposal and possibly the water supply for the facility. These state regs will rarely stop a project, it just means that the project has to be designed to meet specific criteria. There is a secondary issue that the overall use of the summit between the cog the autoroad and the hiking public has increased substantially and arguably the existing wastewater disposal system is insufficient to handle the demand. The cog is offering the state the option to connect up the summit to the new cog sewerline and it associated leach field. The states major revenue source is room and meals tax and any new hotel would pay 9% into the state coffers plus Coos county would get property taxes. To date the WMNF has been totally silent on the proposed project, they are the only abutter and its odd that to date being the primary stewards of the alpine zone they have not made any official statements.

The two county boards have to rule that the project when proposed meets local planning regulations. The sticking point is that the county generally prohibits any development over a certain elevation with little option for exceptions. The developer and his supporters will potentially be arguing that the development meets the criteria for the exceptions while others will argue otherwise. This is at the county level, its not a judicial hearing, the general public may speak for and against but ultimately the decision is made in a vote by the planning board members. The county regulations also have criteria for setbacks from property lines, the cog only owns a 100 foot strip of land up the mountain and they would potentially like to build closer to the property line than called out in the regulations. The rail track is an active tourist operation and there most likely are required clearances by the insurance company if not another regulatory board. Thus they potentially wish a special exception for setbacks which has certain criteria before it can be granted. The decision ultimately is by a separate board called the zoning board of appeals (also an appointed board). They will take public opinion and the abutters input into account when making a decision but ultimately the board ends up making the decision. There is an appeal process but generally the state supports the local decisions unless the rules in place were not followed or the decision is in disagreement with state regulations. I personally don't see much issue with the setback as long as enough is retained to allow maintenance of the new structure. Realistically the decision is not if there will be an eyesore rather will the eyesore be better or worse by it being slightly closer to the property line?

So where does this put the opposition? In a pretty untenable situation, the leader of the petition drive appears to be a resident of an adjacent county as he lists a North Conway address which is Grafton County . There is a local opposition of coos county residents but the vast majority of the petitioners appear to be from outside the county. The county commissioners tend to be pro development and there is also a general dislike of people from outside of the county "south of the notches" telling Coos county what to do due to a fairly long tradition of state authorities ignoring the wishes of the predominately rural north country. A particular festering sore is that North Conway region is an economic roadblock to the north country and a long planned bypass to open up traffic around the Conway region was delayed and ultimately canceled by local Conway opposition. The ongoing Northern Pass controversy plays right into this and has ramped up this perceived bias.

I have no doubt that there are interested individuals who are willing to be participate in the process if compensated and I wish the group luck in acquiring funds. I just don't know how effective they can be given the regulatory environment for the project. There is lot of donor exhaustion in the area due to multiple fund raising campaigns against Northern Pass and to date the perception is that the NP process is rigged to approve it. That probably makes it even more difficult to collect donations. Unlike protests in South Dakota there just doesn't seem to be enough celebrities who want to show up and protest. I guess someone needs to drag Steven Tyler, Adam Sandler and Sara Sliverman up to the summit to make a protest;).

4eyedbuzzard
02-03-2017, 19:34
Putting Tipi's platitudes aside,...Details, facts, and such, huh? How old fashioned. ;) Like many issues, the problem isn't a simple one-sided one, nor are solutions and compromises. I would add that AMC dropped plans for their new "Sparkling Cascade" hut proposal after public criticism, so there is plenty of reason to believe that with enough public resistance this proposal can be squashed by holding to certain existing usage/zoning regulations.
Some more info on the proposed Cog resort at http://neice.com/featured-stories/cog-railway-announces-intentions-to-build-a-35-room-luxury-hotel-on-mount-washington/

Tipi Walter
02-03-2017, 19:38
Unlike protests in South Dakota there just doesn't seem to be enough celebrities who want to show up and protest. I guess someone needs to drag Steven Tyler, Adam Sandler and Sara Sliverman up to the summit to make a protest;).

Or the locals should be so incensed that they do all in their power to stop the development and replace the planning board members. Mt Washington is their mountain after all---and also part of the heritage of what's left of America the Beautiful. Why is this even a discussion? Is this a backpacking and hiking forum dedicated to what's left of unspoiled nature or a vacation resort forum looking for the best drive-to mountain lodges?

4eyedbuzzard
02-03-2017, 19:45
Or the locals should be so incensed that they do all in their power to stop the development and replace the planning board members. Mt Washington is their mountain after all---and also part of the heritage of what's left of America the Beautiful. Why is this even a discussion?

FWIW public comment is about 11-1 against the project. From the article I linked to:

"An online petition created Dec. 2 in opposition to the hotel had attracted 6,307 signatures by Saturday — more than 11 times the 562 names attached to a counter-petition in support of the plan."

Hosh
02-03-2017, 19:47
Or the locals should be so incensed that they do all in their power to stop the development and replace the planning board members. Mt Washington is their mountain after all-

Except for the portion that is private property. Too many years of squatting has confused things.

chrismagness
02-03-2017, 22:28
Donations will be used primarily for lawyers fees. If excess funds are generated, they'll be managed by the Waterman Fund for purposes of alpine stewardship. All expenses will be disclosed and documented. As mentioned, this is a volunteer effort. We're a newly formed NH based nonprofit comprised of Carroll and Coos County citizens. There is no leader of the opposition, everyone is giving what time they can. And that's why the website is simple, these things take more time and effort than you could possibly imagine. A website is just one small piece of the puzzle. We have more information to add, but time is short here.

Presby's attorney has suggested one more informational hearing before formally filing. This is not assumption, this is according to documents filed with the Coos County Planning Board. Given a July 2019 opening date, construction would need to begin this spring. We have to solicit donations in order to keep up with Presby's attorneys who are fast-acting.

The proposed site is Skyline Switch, 5600 feet, well above treeline and in the alpine tundra. There are close to 5 dozen documented rare species of plants within a stones throw of the site. Furthermore, this region is receding with climate change.

Contrary to popular belief, the Cog only owns land at the base and the summit. The 99 foot strip is a right-of-way, specifically a railroad easement. I can tell you this for certain because the Cog's deed and charter are sitting on my desk.

Aside from the land ownership issue, this area isn't zoned for construction. It's PD6. Protected District 6 (steep slopes). Presby would need a special exception to build in PD6, a variance to build above 2700 feet, and a setback variance.

Tipi Walter
02-03-2017, 22:32
Thanks for the update and for your efforts in trying to protect what's left.

chrismagness
02-03-2017, 22:39
Thanks man! This has been a crazy ride, I've had wonderful conversations with folks I never would've expected to meet.

One more thought. The cog is represents a narrow swath of land, a pin scar on a much larger mountainscape that's comprised of National Forest. It's important that folks from all over chime in, Mt. Washington is a New England icon. It belongs to everyone, not just those in the North Country. We're just fortunate enough to live here.

Dogwood
02-03-2017, 22:50
Wait, help! The entire auto road and the cog are on private property? I can't see that unless they have grandfathered corridor easement rights. Sure the cog or road itself are only privately held and not the land it is built? I'm just asking.

Dogwood
02-03-2017, 22:52
That's what I thought. Thanks Chris. Just saw your post.

Tipi Walter
02-03-2017, 22:56
It belongs to everyone, not just those in the North Country. We're just fortunate enough to live here.

My point all along. These places of beauty are part of our heritage and part of what's left of America the beautiful.

Miner
02-03-2017, 23:07
Thanks for giving some details. I wasn't against what you are doing, I just wanted some details to get a better understanding what I was being asked to support.

Dogwood
02-03-2017, 23:07
Building a 26,000 sq ft hotel on Mt Washington at 5600 ft elevation well above treelike in fragile alpine tundra with endangered species is going to be a mar to Mt Washington and the environment no matter what attorneys, political commissioners who prioritize a connection with economics(MONEY) over NATURE, and engineers state otherwise. This will happen during construction and should the hotel development be allowed to go forward moving into virtually yr round operations. Basically, the hotel is seeking to sell itself on appealing to out of state hikers and snow sport enthusiasts operating yr round to elites. It's similar to ski resorts that want to invade National Forest's mountain tops but this is close to a National Scenic Recreational Tr above treeline with endangered species listed with no to little existing infrastructure to currently support the construction and operating phases.

chrismagness
02-03-2017, 23:31
Facts are important and you're right to ask for them. So is your feedback- something that'll help us to be more effective. We're working through content in an exacting way, will have more information available soon.

peakbagger
02-04-2017, 07:34
A railroad easement versus owned land will make quite a difference in the case. I would be interesting so see a copy of that deed.

chrismagness
02-21-2017, 10:47
After further research, it would appear that the Cog does own the land. However, permissions are very specific: a 3 rail railway. The zoning district that the Cog passes through is also quite specific and protects certain areas for their natural beauty. These areas are referred to as Protected Districts, PD6 Steep Slopes applies here. It's clear on many levels that this land, private or not, was never legally designed to have a hotel. Peakbagger, as you mentioned in VFTT, small town politics can be a big hurdle. We're not comfortable sharing in full detail all of the information that we've accumulated, as our attorney would like to hold a few close cards, but again the legality of the situation is clear.

I'm not a member of VFTT and can not contribute: there are misconceptions about Protect Mount Washington. Protect Mount Washington is a campaign, not an organization. We are a New Hampshire based nonprofit called Keep the Whites Wild and this is our effort to preserve Mount Washington's alpine. Our website is one page for now, our mission is stated their: keepthewhiteswild.org. Would you please relay this message? We are working on a greater level of transparency, bios should be up soon.

Our policy, generally, is to abstain from forums because conversations can spiral in so many different directions quickly. When we are vocal, we stick to the facts. This has potential to become a high profile situation. Generally, we're available for conversation through our Facebook page and through email where I'd be happy to talk about things much more candidly.

peakbagger
02-21-2017, 11:43
Drop me PM and promise to be good boy and I will sponsor you on VFTT

chrismagness
03-10-2017, 10:05
https://www.protectmountwashington.org/2017/03/conservation-groups-unite-to-block-alpine-hotel-on-mount-washington/

chrismagness
03-10-2017, 17:55
38526

Photo credited to Keep the Whites Wild. This shows the proximity to the AT and Great Gulf Headwall. The hotel would be sited ON the Westside Trail.

Note, the distances are to the center of the building/ Cog's ROW.

Didn't realize that the entire link wouldn't show above. Keep the Whites Wild has mailed a letter to the Coos County Planning Board and Zoning Board of Appeals expressing concern over the Cog's interest in harmful alpine development. The Waterman Fund, American Alpine Club, Access Fund, Friends of Tuckerman Ravine, Friends of the Ledges, New England Wildflower Society, and Protectors of the Amonoosuc River Corridor have signed in support of the letter.

again, the link: https://www.protectmountwashington.org/2017/03/conservation-groups-unite-to-block-alpine-hotel-on-mount-washington/