LNT cat hole depth

[Traillium]

Oh crap — why not post this observation? …

I returned in mid-November to the exact spot I'd done a boot-scrape shallow cat hole late last May. In my defence, I had been desperate desperate desperate, and despite having an excellent titanium trowel that I faithfully used elsewhere along the trail, the only thing I could do in my haste was a hurried boot-scrape hole before lowering my backside … I then followed my usual technique of stirring the result with a stout stick, covering it with the material I'd scraped off, and the placing a pair of sticks crossed in an 'X'.

I know it was the exact spot because of the crossed-sticks and the identifiable tree.

So when I was back in the area mid-November, i searched out the 'X marks the spot'. I used a stick to carefully pull back the undisturbed crossed sticks, and gently move the accumulated leaf litter.

• I saw nothing to indicate that I had used that exact spot, other than that the soil was perhaps a bit darker.
• No sign of TP.
• No sign of disturbance by any animal big enough to move the sticks.
• No surface tunnels or groves to indicate any mouse-sized disturbance recently.

I've long thought that the 6" mantra about cat holes might well have something to do with western dryer soils where NOLS is.

I've also long known from digging (with students) countless soil horizons in our various soils here in Southern Ontario that our active soil horizons are remarkably shallow, including in deciduous forests. 15cm/6in is almost always well down below the most active surficial layers.

So … I know I'm poking a Holy Cat Hole …

Has anyone else gone back and checked your own cat holes? [… PERHAPS THIS SHOULD BE A CONDITION BEFORE YOU REPLY …]

What is the precise research on which 6" is based?

Does 6" involve a 'safe' and conservative margin of error?

Does 6" relate more to dryer western soils, perhaps with a greater less active surface humus layer?

Am I in deep do-do? (Is that colloquial enough to mean deep excremental trouble?)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170204/93048ef51d4bb1c286dbf977dd7cb3f0.jpg

[ScareBear]

I.........ummm........yeah..........no.......becau se.....well.....

I've never posted an "X" to mark the spot...although now you have me thinking about a GPS waypoint to my poo....which sounds very very twisted...

[Sapelo]

The Center for Leave No Trace Ethics in Boulder, CO, actually looks for "Citizen Scientists" to conduct cat hole research. Contact them and they can fill you in on how to conduct a science based approach to documenting how fast feces and toliet paper dissolves in your area.

[blw2]

my guess is that it's a nice round number .... 1/2 foot....
and it's a decent enough depth to get the stink away and to reduce animal exposure
and yes I wouldn't be a bit surprised if going deep like that actually preserves it longer than a near zero depth

[Tipi Walter]

The deeper the better is my opinion but then I live in the Southeast where digging catholes is fairly easy using the titanium tip of my hiking pole. Some soils are better than others of course. For an emergency dump you can always dig a deeper hole right next to the new-born turtlehead and then scoot the Turdage over with a stick and let it plop down into the hole. Bury. I never ever leave my "after birth" on the ground no matter what and never leave my toilet paper visible.

One time I dug the perfect cathole (winter of 1983) and pushed out a perfect specimen but unfortunately my boot laces were in the Turd Hole thereby liberally coated with fresh effluvia. Newbs take note.

[HooKooDooKu]

As stated on the LNT web site:

Proper disposal of human waste is important to avoid pollution of water sources, avoid the negative implications of someone else finding it, minimize the possibility of spreading disease, and maximize the rate of decomposition.

The other aspect is simplicity...
While "in some places" a shallower cat hole might actually help decomposition... 6" seems to be "good enough" everywhere (that burial is appropriate).

To put it another way, we already have enough problems just getting people of follow the simple principle of "dig a 6" deep hole". We sure as **** don't need to confuse the issue and say (dig it 8" deep out there, 4" deep over there, and 6" deep over there.

[Slo-go'en]

I can rarely dig 6" down. Just scrape away the top layer of leaf litter and get into the top soil. Do your business, cover and stir a little. It will decompose quick enough and fertilize that little spot.

[Traillium]

The Center for Leave No Trace Ethics in Boulder, CO, actually looks for "Citizen Scientists" to conduct cat hole research. Contact them and they can fill you in on how to conduct a science based approach to documenting how fast feces and toliet paper dissolves in your area.

Great idea! I'll follow through on that.

[Traillium]

my guess is that it's a nice round number .... 1/2 foot....
and it's a decent enough depth to get the stink away and to reduce animal exposure
and yes I wouldn't be a bit surprised if going deep like that actually preserves it longer than a near zero depth

You're thinking along the same lines as I am.

[Tipi Walter]

Somebody did exhaustive study at Backpacking Light.com on the different decomposition times of various toilet papers---sani wipes, wet wipes, paper towels, toilet paper etc.

[Traillium]

Yeah, I've done that as well, Tipi.
My particular mess resembled a bear-on-blueberries slurry … My good stirring was cathartic …

[Traillium]

So far, good feedback. Thanks!

… Who has ever checked on the progress of your own dumps? …

[Tipi Walter]

Yeah, I've done that as well, Tipi.
My particular mess resembled a bear-on-blueberries slurry … My good stirring was cathartic …

We each have our own names for them. Mine I call my pancake batters . . . . or the 20 inch snake coiled in on itself. It's time to worry when your turd has a vestigial hand which trips you up as you prepare to walk away.

[Engine]

I.........ummm........yeah..........no.......becau se.....well.....

I've never posted an "X" to mark the spot...although now you have me thinking about a GPS waypoint to my poo....which sounds very very twisted... A whole new type of geocache...;)

[Engine]

...One time I dug the perfect cathole (winter of 1983) and pushed out a perfect specimen but unfortunately my boot laces were in the Turd Hole thereby liberally coated with fresh effluvia. Newbs take note. Experience is the best teacher. I was reading a trail journal a while back and the author expressed her utter disgust as she was setting up her tent in near dark conditions and couldn't figure out what the goo on her hands and the tent was...until she smelled it.

[Traveler]

Catholes provide far more protection of human health than a lot of people realize, though for some it seems impractical, time consuming, and/or unnecessary. This issue is in close company to shelters that have many uses (and like privies, many detractors), chief among them is to allow a sustainable AT to exist despite the tens of thousands of visitors who walk the trail in part or whole every year.

The depth of catholes of 6-inches to 8-inches (4-inches to 6-inches in desert climate) is not an arbitrary number. Surface water from rain and snow melt will carry bacteria from human waste a considerable distance. This compromises water sources many hundreds of feet from the source. The recommended depth of catholes allows fecal content to remain in place, using rainwater to break it down in place. It also avoids having it wash away in heavy weather events as it often does in simple heel indentation disturbance of the organic surface layer of soil or worse, placing some duff on top of it and walking off unconcerned. Careless/unconcerned fecal management is the primary reason I treat water from any source along the AT.

The management of human waste is a significant aspect to the sustainability of the AT. Disregarding the basic tenets of LNT waste guidelines directly impacts that sustainability. Unfortunately, this may be one of those issues that if it has to be explained, it's likely not to be understood.

[dervari]

Experience is the best teacher. I was reading a trail journal a while back and the author expressed her utter disgust as she was setting up her tent in near dark conditions and couldn't figure out what the goo on her hands and the tent was...until she smelled it.
She could have been at fault if she was stealth camping.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk

[Tipi Walter]

Experience is the best teacher. I was reading a trail journal a while back and the author expressed her utter disgust as she was setting up her tent in near dark conditions and couldn't figure out what the goo on her hands and the tent was...until she smelled it.

Reminds me of a true story camping on Slickrock Creek in the Kilmer-Slickrock wilderness in NC. I left camp barefoot on Turd Patrol (not to find turds but to make a turd deposit into my Special Account). I left the tent and climbed up a steep hill to reach a level area about 75 feet from camp. As I prepared to dig out a cathole my toes squished thru a foul substance which turned out to be a barely visible pile of human feces and it went up into my toes like toejam.

In a panic I ran down to the creek to wash off my feet and vowed to never leave camp again unless I'm in my crocs.

[Traillium]

Catholes provide far more protection of human health than a lot of people realize, though for some it seems impractical, time consuming, and/or unnecessary. This issue is in close company to shelters that have many uses (and like privies, many detractors), chief among them is to allow a sustainable AT to exist despite the tens of thousands of visitors who walk the trail in part or whole every year.

The depth of catholes of 6-inches to 8-inches (4-inches to 6-inches in desert climate) is not an arbitrary number. Surface water from rain and snow melt will carry bacteria from human waste a considerable distance. This compromises water sources many hundreds of feet from the source. The recommended depth of catholes allows fecal content to remain in place, using rainwater to break it down in place. It also avoids having it wash away in heavy weather events as it often does in simple heel indentation disturbance of the organic surface layer of soil or worse, placing some duff on top of it and walking off unconcerned. Careless/unconcerned fecal management is the primary reason I treat water from any source along the AT.

The management of human waste is a significant aspect to the sustainability of the AT. Disregarding the basic tenets of LNT waste guidelines directly impacts that sustainability. Unfortunately, this may be one of those issues that if it has to be explained, it's likely not to be understood.

I agree with your points, Traveler. And those are the reasons that I do dig proper normally.

I especially appreciate your pointing out the necessity of effective cat-holing around even moderately used campsites.

I'm pointing out one instance of which I know the details.

I also return to the question as to how many of us have actually tested our own cat holes after any period of time?

[4eyedbuzzard]

... As I prepared to dig out a cathole my toes squished thru a foul substance which turned out to be a barely visible pile of human feces and it went up into my toes like toejam.

In a panic I ran down to the creek to wash off my feet and vowed to never leave camp again unless I'm in my crocs.

So, if you wear crocs, then step in $#!t, and then tell others, people will likely say your tale is a croc of $#!t. Maybe best not to admit such things. :D

[Tipi Walter]

So, if you wear crocs, then step in $#!t, and then tell others, people will likely say your tale is a croc of $#!t. Maybe best not to admit such things. :D

Reminds me of the time I was on the Basin Lead Trail south of Tellico River and my water broke and I gave immediate birth to a 9 lb load and sadly I slipped backwards a bit while trying to stand and the whole of my left crocked-foot slipped into the hole and atop the Young William I just reproduced after a 3 day gestation. Completely slimmed my wonderful left croc. Best thing newbs is just to stay out of the woods.

[StubbleJumper]

Oh crap — why not post this observation? …

I returned in mid-November to the exact spot I'd done a boot-scrape shallow cat hole late last May. In my defence, I had been desperate desperate desperate, and despite having an excellent titanium trowel that I faithfully used elsewhere along the trail, the only thing I could do in my haste was a hurried boot-scrape hole before lowering my backside … I then followed my usual technique of stirring the result with a stout stick, covering it with the material I'd scraped off, and the placing a pair of sticks crossed in an 'X'.

I know it was the exact spot because of the crossed-sticks and the identifiable tree.

So when I was back in the area mid-November, i searched out the 'X marks the spot'. I used a stick to carefully pull back the undisturbed crossed sticks, and gently move the accumulated leaf litter.

• I saw nothing to indicate that I had used that exact spot, other than that the soil was perhaps a bit darker.
• No sign of TP.
• No sign of disturbance by any animal big enough to move the sticks.
• No surface tunnels or groves to indicate any mouse-sized disturbance recently.

I've long thought that the 6" mantra about cat holes might well have something to do with western dryer soils where NOLS is.

I've also long known from digging (with students) countless soil horizons in our various soils here in Southern Ontario that our active soil horizons are remarkably shallow, including in deciduous forests. 15cm/6in is almost always well down below the most active surficial layers.

So … I know I'm poking a Holy Cat Hole …

Has anyone else gone back and checked your own cat holes? [… PERHAPS THIS SHOULD BE A CONDITION BEFORE YOU REPLY …]

What is the precise research on which 6" is based?

Does 6" involve a 'safe' and conservative margin of error?

Does 6" relate more to dryer western soils, perhaps with a greater less active surface humus layer?

Am I in deep do-do? (Is that colloquial enough to mean deep excremental trouble?)




When possible, I have always preferred to "flop a rock". Just find a 25-50 pound rock, turn it over, drop your load and TP into the indentation in the soil where the rock was, and the roll the rock back into place. The TP and turds will never escape, and they are 4 inches or so below the soil. I just pity the poor fellow who comes by later with the same idea as me and who chooses to flop the exact same rock...

[nsherry61]

. . . I just pity the poor fellow who comes by later with the same idea as me and who chooses to flop the exact same rock...
. . . or the trail maintenance volunteer that, harvesting rocks for a nearby water bar, gets to turn over, not only your poo rock, but everyone else's in the same area as well.

Flipping rocks for dropping deuces is consider poor form for these apparently not-so-obvious reasons.

[Dogwood]

. . . or the trail maintenance volunteer that, harvesting rocks for a nearby water bar, gets to turn over, not only your poo rock, but everyone else's in the same area as well.

Flipping rocks for dropping deuces is consider poor form for these apparently not-so-obvious reasons.

More and more often at nearly every summit kicking over a rock will expose a turtlehead and TP flower.

[Leo L.]

The rock idea is pretty common here in Europe, especially in the southern part, in places where car campers and rock climbers stealth camp to save money.
In places you can lift many suitable rocks in vein until you find one unused or used so long ago that the decoposition is nearly finished.

Anybody knows the book Touching the Void?
When an uncovered pile saved the life of Joe Simpson?

[StubbleJumper]

More and more often at nearly every summit kicking over a rock will expose a turtlehead and TP flower.


. . . or the trail maintenance volunteer that, harvesting rocks for a nearby water bar, gets to turn over, not only your poo rock, but everyone else's in the same area as well.

Flipping rocks for dropping deuces is consider poor form for these apparently not-so-obvious reasons.


You guys must do most of your hiking in high usage areas. If you are in a high usage area, it's preferable to simply use the privies. On the other hand, if you are in Colorado or Arizona, there are fewer trail users and many fewer privies. With so much less trail use, the probability of somebody flopping the same rock as you during the same year is much lower (but not zero!). I much prefer to incur the risk of flopping a rock that has been previously flopped by another hiker than the bigger problem of having to see poorly dug catholes with TP escaping.

[Traillium]

Interesting how this fine discussion has at times wandered from my observation about the depth of one particular cat hole and effectiveness of decomposition in it.
I'm glad that all of us are concerned about full and quick decomposition of our crap.
We've had some good recognition of differences in cat-holing across different habitats.
Let's do what we can individually and collectively to practice crapping safely.
That means getting out onto the trail often. That means digging the best cat hole you can for your area. That means communicating to others the need for suitable practices.
(Geez … must be time for a Sunday sermon …)

[Dogwood]

"You guys must do most of your hiking in high usage areas."

Nope! Exactly opposite!

Expecting privies atop 13ers or 14ers or on the CDT or PCT or JMT or GET(both) or SHR or HDT or TRT or SHT or SHT or OHT or OT or WRR or AZT or CT or OCT or PNWT or BMT or PT or FT or Cali Coastal Tr... or...or....is an unrealistic entitled expectancy. Privies are something of a rarity on both high use trails as mentioned and in XC backpacking. I'd explode if I waited for a privy to #1 or #2 on any of these trails and routes. That's why we should get back to the original topic about practicing good hygiene as it affects many not the just the "drop and leave or stone stomper." :o

[Dogwood]

https://www.amazon.com/How-****-Woods-3rd-Environmentally/dp/1580083633

Kathleen Meyer who's female friendly, direct but humorous is great about discussing the topic. Good read for all females concerned with doing female things outdoors that are sensitive for some to talk about. Men would get a lot including a few laughs from Kathleen's book too.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how-to-poo-in-the-woods-mats/1121199181?ean=9781853759345&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Core+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP62465

This too breaks some misconceptions about cat holes.

Thought it initially absolutely ridiculous and not needed. I though what is there to know about pooing and peeing in the outdoors that I didn't already know. These two quick reads which I could digest only in quick chapter or excerpt reads at Barnes & Noble were more insightful than originally imagined. Who could have thought so?

[Harrison Bergeron]

It's not the occasional cathole in the woods that's a problem. Mankind somehow survived for half a million years before the cathole was invented.


It's the TP blooms growing on the half acre of toxic waste that surrounds the most popular campsites when the privies get full that's a problem.

[Traillium]

It's the TP blooms growing on the half acre of toxic waste that surrounds the most popular campsites when the privies get full that's a problem.

Yes — a huge part of the issue

[generoll]

assuming that you are not at a campsite, get away from the trail and just dump. animals do it all the time and it degrades quicker with a ready source of oxygen.

[Tipi Walter]

assuming that you are not at a campsite, get away from the trail and just dump. animals do it all the time and it degrades quicker with a ready source of oxygen.


Bad advice. Instead of hiking thru the Green Tunnel we'll be hiking thru the Green Colon.

[Traillium]

assuming that you are not at a campsite, get away from the trail and just dump. animals do it all the time and it degrades quicker with a ready source of oxygen.

Sorry, but I don't think that's acceptable.

My main complaint with this is that leaving human faeces on the surface could lead to easier spreading of human diseases. Flies could be likely vectors — even though fly larvae might actually increase the speed of decomposition … Rainfall would more easily lead to runoff and contamination with uncovered crap.

Bury your deposits. Ideally get it down into the active layers of decomposition. Cover it in such a way that other people won't accidentally step in it.

[Dogwood]

The Center for Leave No Trace Ethics in Boulder, CO, actually looks for "Citizen Scientists" to conduct cat hole research. Contact them and they can fill you in on how to conduct a science based approach to documenting how fast feces and toliet paper dissolves in your area.


One or both the books I linked to refer to this.

[Dogwood]

[QUOTE=Traillium;2124749]Oh crap — why not post this observation? …

I returned in mid-November to the exact spot I'd done a boot-scrape shallow cat hole late last May. In my defence, I had been desperate desperate desperate, and despite having an excellent titanium trowel that I faithfully used elsewhere along the trail, the only thing I could do in my haste was a hurried boot-scrape hole before lowering my backside … I then followed my usual technique of stirring the result with a stout stick, covering it with the material I'd scraped off, and the placing a pair of sticks crossed in an 'X'.

I know it was the exact spot because of the crossed-sticks and the identifiable tree.

So when I was back in the area mid-November, i searched out the 'X marks the spot'. I used a stick to carefully pull back the undisturbed crossed sticks, and gently move the accumulated leaf litter.

• I saw nothing to indicate that I had used that exact spot, other than that the soil was perhaps a bit darker.
• No sign of TP.
• No sign of disturbance by any animal big enough to move the sticks.
• No surface tunnels or groves to indicate any mouse-sized disturbance recently.

So you found a spot to cowboy camp? :D

[MuddyWaters]

The top layer of soil is where organisms reside that will break fown the poo rapidly.
Too deep and it is slower.

Ive left a load on surface in a spot in woods, and no trace a few days later . Eaten by hogs I suppose.

Mix poo into the topsoil with water, smell dissapears and its gone in a very short time

Ive dug up previous catholes when digging mine . Easily determined by the buried tp, no waste present.

[Tipi Walter]

Taking a human dump on the ground and walking away is very bad form for several reasons. As Traillium mentions, flies go from turds to your food and ask any large-gathering outdoorsmen---you must have a slit trench and an outdoor latrine area if you want basic hygiene. And exposed turds must be covered with dirt to keep the flies away.

Second, not burying turds could be/is a sign of laziness. I have seen countless turd piles left by rolling tourists who stop at a scenic pulloff and drop their loads in the woods nearby and run away screaming---leaving their angry turtleheads right atop the ground along with the toilet paper. The worst example was in Grassy Gap off the Cherohala Skyway whereby a no-count rolling couch potato stopped in a panic and rushed into the woods and took a dump right IN THE HEADWATERS of Grassy Branch Creek. Got pics to prove it.

Third, the smell as mentioned. Imagine the stink on the AT in April from Springer north if everyone just dropped their loads in the woods paralleling the trail. No thanks.

[QiWiz]

I returned in mid-November to the exact spot I'd done a boot-scrape shallow cat hole late last May. In my defence, I had been desperate desperate desperate, and despite having an excellent titanium trowel that I faithfully used elsewhere along the trail, the only thing I could do in my haste was a hurried boot-scrape hole before lowering my backside … I then followed my usual technique of stirring the result with a stout stick, covering it with the material I'd scraped off, and the placing a pair of sticks crossed in an 'X'.

When in a hurry, just dig your cathole AFTER doing your business and then use a stick to push the business into it's intended destination. I have to agree with you that titanium trowels are an excellent digging tool.


I've long thought that the 6" mantra about cat holes might well have something to do with western dryer soils where NOLS is.

I've also long known from digging (with students) countless soil horizons in our various soils here in Southern Ontario that our active soil horizons are remarkably shallow, including in deciduous forests. 15cm/6in is almost always well down below the most active surficial layers. Does 6" involve a 'safe' and conservative margin of error? Does 6" relate more to dryer western soils, perhaps with a greater less active surface humus layer?

There are at least 3 purposes of using a cathole: [1] so that your bowel bacteria don't get into local waterways; [2] so that others do not have to see and/or smell your output; [3] so that your output decomposes and becomes part of the ecosystem. For [1], the deeper the better, and the farther away from any waterway the better. For [2], the deeper the better. For [3] your output needs to interact with biologically active soil (topsoil) for it to decompose and disappear as yours did. So 6" is a compromise among these goals. If topsoil is thin, which is very common in many areas, it is a great idea to stir some topsoil into your output with a stick whenever you think it's resting place to meet goals [1] and [2] is in less biologically active subsoil.

[HooKooDooKu]

First of all, I'm totally flabbergasted that we're actually having any sort of a discussion as to whether you should or shouldn't bury your crap.

Second, When the subject of what trowel to use comes up, I now understand the people who say "I just use my boot heal".

Third, given that the subject line is "LNT cat hole depth", ...leaving poop on the surface is NOT LNT (by definition).

And finally, in some places, burying your poop is required by law... and so at least in those places, it would be illegal to leave poop sitting on the ground.
Case-in-point: GSMNP regulations that carry the weight of law requires poop to be buried.

[Dogwood]

It's not the occasional cathole in the woods that's a problem. Mankind somehow survived for half a million years before the cathole was invented.

It's the TP blooms growing on the half acre of toxic waste that surrounds the most popular campsites when the privies get full that's a problem.

For half a million yrs we didn't have 7+ billion people.

Sanitation is a very real disease issue around the world in many places India, parts of Asia, Africa....the Appalachian Trail....atop Mt Whitney....
Human generated non hygienic waste can often result in downstream polluted disease carrying water.

[Tipi Walter]

First of all, I'm totally flabbergasted that we're actually having any sort of a discussion as to whether you should or shouldn't bury your crap.



Exactly. Not burying my crap is . . . . . crappy.

[Traillium]

Note that my original post was a personal observation about an apparently successful decomposition of a personal shallow boot-scrape cathole. (Note that I have stated that I personally normally dig 'proper' cat holes as per the LNT specifications.)
I then asked if others have made observations of known personal cat holes. (None have, if I've properly been keeping track.)
Thirdly, I posited a possible relationship between specific environments/habitats/regions and the 'best' depth of an optimal cat hole.
Yes, some folks have seemingly advocated for no cat holes. (Note that I am not one of those.)
Summarizing to this point, it seems to me that this thread has drawn good attention to the practice of cat holing and to the whys and wherefors of the practice.

[Dogwood]

I've long thought that the 6" mantra about cat holes might well have something to do with western dryer soils where NOLS is.

I've also long known from digging (with students) countless soil horizons in our various soils here in Southern Ontario that our active soil horizons are remarkably shallow, including in deciduous forests. 15cm/6in is almost always well down below the most active surficial layers.

So … I know I'm poking a Holy Cat Hole …

Has anyone else gone back and checked your own cat holes? [… PERHAPS THIS SHOULD BE A CONDITION BEFORE YOU REPLY …]

What is the precise research on which 6" is based?

Does 6" involve a 'safe' and conservative margin of error?

Does 6" relate more to dryer western soils, perhaps with a greater less active surface humus layer?

Am I in deep do-do? (Is that colloquial enough to mean deep excremental trouble?)



This part of your opening post, which you are absolutely correct about Trallium, is really what your thread is about. :) These are all great direct clear questions about a topic that most think they know more than they do including myself as I said. I started becoming more aware after reading them. MW and QiWiz started getting further detailed about answering your questions succinctly. The links to the books I provided go specifically into addressing your questions also. QiWiz statements sound like they were taken from one or more of those books.

[Traillium]

The links to the books I provided go specifically into addressing your questions also. [/COLOR]
I have "How To Sh…" but not the other one, Dogwood. I'll have to go back and reread "How" because I vaguely remember little 'proof' and mostly (good!) assertions.
Been thinking about why I keep harping on this thread …
Other than that it's important, and timely as many of us wake from winter slumber, I think it comes back to a personal deep-seated underpinning: "How do we 'know'?"
I think that's a crucial question we have to ask ourselves more than ever now.
One of the aspects of the hiking community I'm coming to value is that there's a solid value given to learning from direct experience — a version of "Hike Your Own Hike" perhaps. I am also appreciative of the impressive proportion of this community that have rich technical and theoretical understandings upon which you ground your practical knowledge. (You included, sir.) This combination appeals greatly to me.

[Harrison Bergeron]

For half a million yrs we didn't have 7+ billion people.


Sanitation is a very real disease issue around the world in many places India, parts of Asia, Africa....the Appalachian Trail....atop Mt Whitney....
Human generated non hygienic waste can often result in downstream polluted disease carrying water.

Obviously. But we're not talking about Calcutta and dense populations -- except at the popular campsites on the AT during the peak when they begin to resemble Calcutta and the privies fill up. But even then, if you hiked through a couple of months later, the TP blooms would be gone and the poo would merely be dirt. Nature is amazingly resilient that way.

It's common sense to carry a trowel and use it if a privy isn't available. I do, but I certainly don't carry a ruler to verify correct depth.

What's crazy and un-hygienic is the current trend toward removing or not maintaining the privies, which would merely force thousands of hikers to spread their droppings along a narrow 2150 mile path through the woods.

[Dogwood]

I hear ya Harrison. :) Kinda dense populations on the AT within the AT NOBO thru-hiker bubble though with 50-60 people at one AT lean to location all relieving themselves all taking from one, sometimes limited, water source. During AT NOBO bubble times there have been accounts of upwards of 1000 people on 10 miles or so of a linear 3 ft wide path. Imagine what happens after the congregation of NOBOs leave Damascus en masse after Trail Days with most proceeding in the same direction? Ever come in shortly after them to lean to's, established campsites, privies, or, take from the as the masses do, water locations? How about the PCT in late April/early May in Agua Dulce at the Suafleys with 1000+ NOBO's in one yard with 400-500 leaving on the same day? At least the PCTA and Suafleys have instituted some usage controls in the form of, ready for it, oh boo, QUOTAS.

[HooKooDooKu]

It's common sense to carry a trowel and use it if a privy isn't available. I do, but I certainly don't carry a ruler to verify correct depth.
At the very least, I believe this thread has pointed out that there is nothing magical about the 6" depth.
6" is simply a number that for all places that it is appropriate to bury your poop, it's not too deep, not too shallow, not difficult to estimate.
If you are terrible at estimating 6", then simply measure 6" along the length of your trowel and mark a 6" length to use for estimating the depth of your cat hole.

[Another Kevin]

You guys must do most of your hiking in high usage areas. If you are in a high usage area, it's preferable to simply use the privies. On the other hand, if you are in Colorado or Arizona, there are fewer trail users and many fewer privies. With so much less trail use, the probability of somebody flopping the same rock as you during the same year is much lower (but not zero!). I much prefer to incur the risk of flopping a rock that has been previously flopped by another hiker than the bigger problem of having to see poorly dug catholes with TP escaping.

Well, this is an AT site. I'd think the entire AT qualifies as "high usage."

I'm suddenly thinking of one morning along the Northville-Placid where I needed to go about the process of elimination - and was having serious trouble finding a spot that was 200 feet from water! The whole area was beaver swamp, and it seemed I had a stream crossing at least every 300 feet. By the time I was far enough from the previous one, I could see the next one ahead of me. Conditions were getting desperate, and just then, I spotted a tiny sign on a tree. "<--TOILET", it said.

It was just about the simplest possible facility (http://hotmamahikers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/NPTrail331-e1394815989150.jpg). It also had a tree blown down on it, so that I had to wriggle in among the branches. But, oh, was sitting on that little box ever sitting in the lap of luxury!

I was none too sure of the LNT-ness of my behaviour, since the hole was flooded, but I figure that the folks who built the trail probably had an idea about the drainage, and there was probably decent filtration before anything reached the water supply.

Flopping a rock is a bad idea. Under the rock, there are not going to be good conditions for decomposition, and so the material will last much longer than it does in a proper hole. I try to make a point of digging a proper hole. My aim is very poor, but that's what sticks or pieces of bark are for.

[Another Kevin]

What's crazy and un-hygienic is the current trend toward removing or not maintaining the privies, which would merely force thousands of hikers to spread their droppings along a narrow 2150 mile path through the woods.

In the 'front country' areas, the problem is that the privies get filled with garbage almost immediately. Not poo, just empty bottles, food containers, broken pieces of gear, and several things that I won't mention for fear of drawing the wrath of the moderators.

[Another Kevin]

When in a hurry, just dig your cathole AFTER doing your business and then use a stick to push the business into it's intended destination. I have to agree with you that titanium trowels are an excellent digging tool.

I quite agree, now that I'm your customer and have had a chance to try out your fine device. For what it's worth, it saw its first use in the Cotton Hill State Forest in New York, on a day trip where some material announced its presence unexpectedly but insistently.


There are at least 3 purposes of using a cathole: [1] so that your bowel bacteria don't get into local waterways; [2] so that others do not have to see and/or smell your output; [3] so that your output decomposes and becomes part of the ecosystem. For [1], the deeper the better, and the farther away from any waterway the better. For [2], the deeper the better. For [3] your output needs to interact with biologically active soil (topsoil) for it to decompose and disappear as yours did. So 6" is a compromise among these goals. If topsoil is thin, which is very common in many areas, it is a great idea to stir some topsoil into your output with a stick whenever you think it's resting place to meet goals [1] and [2] is in less biologically active subsoil.

For [1], also so that your bacteria don't get spread by flies and wind up in someone else's food.

Stirring in soil is primarily so that you get some loose material in to aerate the mix. If the stuff has enough surface area, the bacteria that were in the material while it was still inside are plenty enough to decompose it. The aerobic bacteria will likely have sporulated, but they'll still be alive.

[StubbleJumper]

Well, this is an AT site. I'd think the entire AT qualifies as "high usage."

I'm suddenly thinking of one morning along the Northville-Placid where I needed to go about the process of elimination - and was having serious trouble finding a spot that was 200 feet from water! The whole area was beaver swamp, and it seemed I had a stream crossing at least every 300 feet. By the time I was far enough from the previous one, I could see the next one ahead of me. Conditions were getting desperate, and just then, I spotted a tiny sign on a tree. "<--TOILET", it said.

It was just about the simplest possible facility (http://hotmamahikers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/NPTrail331-e1394815989150.jpg). It also had a tree blown down on it, so that I had to wriggle in among the branches. But, oh, was sitting on that little box ever sitting in the lap of luxury!

I was none too sure of the LNT-ness of my behaviour, since the hole was flooded, but I figure that the folks who built the trail probably had an idea about the drainage, and there was probably decent filtration before anything reached the water supply.

Flopping a rock is a bad idea. Under the rock, there are not going to be good conditions for decomposition, and so the material will last much longer than it does in a proper hole. I try to make a point of digging a proper hole. My aim is very poor, but that's what sticks or pieces of bark are for.
Well, I'd say that you should try to use the privvies on the NPT. There are lean-tos every 6 or 7 miles, so crapping in the woods should be the exception. The DEC and volunteers established those shelter sites and installed the privvies and thunderboxes for a reason.

Otherwise, I'd observe that the NPT is a fine place to dig a cat-hole as it's deciduous forest and there's not much rock.

Sent from my LG-V522 using Tapatalk

[Dogwood]

In the 'front country' areas, the problem is that the privies get filled with garbage almost immediately. Not poo, just empty bottles, food containers, broken pieces of gear, and several things that I won't mention for fear of drawing the wrath of the moderators.

Separating trash out of privies despite the signs often located over the privy or attached to the inside and/or outside of the front door or signs attached to trees or on posts near the privies or listed on wilderness materials or web sites is not high on the list of what most folks want to do in the outdoors.