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Moxie00
01-22-2006, 11:47
It might be best not to use real names or real trail names but try to describe the most annoying fellow hiker you ever met on a long distance hike.

wyclif
01-22-2006, 14:02
The guys (and girls) who complain constantly about their pack weight.

There are many uncomfortable things on the AT that a hiker can do absolutely nothing about. This is not one of them. That's what makes it so annoying.

Usually a smart-alecky remark from Yours Truly along the lines of "if you had left your kitchen equipment at home you might be able to walk comfortably", but that's usually a waste of time.

I have no idea why humorless, grim people in obvious pain and distress would keep hiking. If you want all the comforts and luxuries of home...well...those are available. At home.

MOWGLI
01-22-2006, 14:22
To me its the exact opposite. It's the person complaining about my pack weight. "Why are you carrying so much?" "Wouldn't you rather carry a pack like mine?" blah blah blah

Topcat
01-22-2006, 14:27
Unsolicited advice drives me bananas. I try to leave others alone and would like them to do the same. I do believe that for tranquilities sake, equipment should be added to religion and politics as subjects not talked about during such gentile occasions as walking up a mountain or enjoying a sunset.

MOWGLI
01-22-2006, 14:30
Unsolicited advice drives me bananas. I try to leave others alone and would like them to do the same. I do believe that for tranquilities sake, equipment should be added to religion and politics as subjects not talked about during such gentile occasions as walking up a mountain or enjoying a sunset.

I agree totally. Here's how I suggest you handle this the next time it happens to you. Just..... :D

wyclif
01-22-2006, 14:37
I do believe that for tranquilities sake, equipment should be added to religion and politics as subjects not talked about during such gentile occasions as walking up a mountain or enjoying a sunset.

Hear, hear on the gearhead stuff. That was a close #2.

generoll
01-22-2006, 14:40
ah, at last a post on hiking topics. and even better one in which i find myself agreeing with the current majority. the only thing i would add to those offering unsolicited advice would be the minimalists who want to 'borrow' stoves, fuel, filters etc. while boasting how light their pack is.

wyclif
01-22-2006, 14:44
The only thing i would add to those offering unsolicited advice would be the minimalists who want to 'borrow' stoves, fuel, filters etc. while boasting how light their pack is.

Isn't that called sherpa packing? E.g. allowing your fellow hikers (w/o their permission, of course) the esteemed privilege of carrying your equipment for you? How completely Lord Jim.

Lemur
01-22-2006, 14:44
large loud groups of adults- they seem to be louder than kids even. Such groups can be extremely difficult to pass on a narrowish trai, even at rest as they tend to plunk their packs down right where you need to put your feet, in the middle of the trail

generoll
01-22-2006, 15:23
sherpa packing? nice term. seems quite appropriate.

mweinstone
01-22-2006, 15:43
hey....how are you doing....FINE.....nice pack.......HUH......WHAT....OH ....WHATEVER. how much does it weigh? WHAT? UM.. I DUNNO.its nice ,it reminds me of bla bla bla[guy talks about gear for 3 hours,recites the campmor catalog from memory and finally crashes.]
in the morning he wakes up with one of those eye mask thingys on he sleeps with.i never knew his name but since he looked like zorro with his sleeping mask ,....i call him zero.

drsukie
01-22-2006, 16:12
To me its the exact opposite. It's the person complaining about my pack weight. "Why are you carrying so much?" "Wouldn't you rather carry a pack like mine?" blah blah blah

Irritating, to be sure.

I'm guessing that if you get a remote look in your eyes, put a weird smile on your face, and tell them that the people from the skyship ( or the voices in your head, etc.) told you that's how to pack your pack -- they just MIGHT leave a person alone! :p Sue

Jack Tarlin
01-22-2006, 16:18
Wow....where to begin?

In no particular order, here are a few things that would drive me nuts if I let 'em:

*Horrible trail musicians who assume everyone wants to hear them play
or sing at the end of the day
*Moochers, esp. smokers who refuse to purchase their own
*Folks who were too lazy or stupid to train their dogs properly before
the trip
*Innapropriate use of cell phones while in the woods
*People who ask overly personal questions when they've just met you,
esp. regarding one's religion, politics, income/profession, etc.
*Newbies that think they know it all after 20 miles
*Veterans that think THEY know it all after several thousand.
*Shelter hogs, the ones who spread all their stuff over three spaces and
act like they're doing you a HUGE favor when they move it
*Lightweight hikers who think they're entitled to a guaranteed spot in a
shelter because they don't have a tent or tarp
*Extreme gearheads who talk about equipment ad nauseum
*Whiners, particularly those who insist on providing daily updates on their
physical and medical afflictions
*People who are positive that you're interested in their bodily functions
*Couples that bicker in front of other hikers
*Couples that are too affectionate in front of other hikers
*New York Yankee fans
*People, usally younger males, that write filthy, nasty stuff in Trail registers
*People that trash talk other hikers in registers thinking it won't get back to
the people they're maligning
*People that bitch about Trail conditions and maintenance tho they've never
done any themselves
*Old timey hikers who constantly talk about how much better the Trail used
to be, and how much harder it was
*Hikers who assume that nobody cares if they're naked without realizing
how horrible they actually look when naked.
*Hikers who mooch water off you because they were too stupid or too
into the "lightweight" thing to carry enough of their own
*People who hog telephones in tiny little trail towns where there's only one
or two phones in the whole village.
*People who think that the fact that they are keeping an Internet journal
somehow entitles them to unlimited time on hostel and library computers
*People who borrow stuff and don't return it or pay you back
*People who borrow stuff and don't return it clean or in good condition
*People who borrow stuff
*People who don't tip in Trailtown restaurants
*People who are greedy about Trail Magic and take more than their share
*Hikers who get the "Trail God" mentality, and think that since they are hiking
for six months, everyone should treat them with awe, never mind give them
all sorts of stuff for free
*People who bitch about paying an overnight fee in extremely highly used
sites in Vermont......and then are buying six dollar beers in a pub two days
later
*People who are know-it-alls or are rude to the staff in Trail Outfitters,
especially when they've been on the trail all of three weeks
*Trail gossips and busybodies
*People who are obsessed with what other people are doing, and bitch about
them in registers, especially as regards whether they've slackpacked,
missed a section, etc.
*People who try to impress you with how fast they covered a section, or
how many miles they achieved that day
*People who talk about how easy a section was when it just beat the s***
out of you
*People with cute trail partners and are overly smug about it
*Cranky, grumpy, older hikers who should have hiked years earlier
*Spoiled, whiny, youger ones who need to wait a few years before hiking
*Phony intellectuals, who try to impress others with their erudition, choice of
reading matter, etc. Clue to someone being a jerk: If their trail name is
that of a Great Western Philosopher, especially from classical Greece, they
are usually insufferable.
*People that won't clean themselves up, even in a hostel or town
*People who wanna share your motel room but don't wanna pay their full
share
*People who never buy a round, but will happily let you pay for theirs
*Motel roomates who are NASCAR fans
*People who cheat hostel owners
*People who make messes in hostels and assume the proprietor will clean it
up; likewise people who won't help with household chores, even when it's
expected
*People who won't chip in on gas for a shuttle, even when they see others
doing so
*People who, when they find you pitched on a beautiful camping spot,
instantly assume that you want them to join you there and that you
welcome their company
*People hiking in the opposite direction of you, who are NEVER capable of
providing accurate info on such things as water availablity, campsites,
distance, etc., even tho they've just covered the section you're asking
them about
*People you meet as you start up a monster climb, who have just come down
it, and insist on gleefully telling you what a horrible uphill awaits you
*Likewise, hikers who go tear-assing up a really steep hill at three and a half
miles an hour, while you're sitting on a rock hawking up lung gobbets and
dying of exhaustion
*Hacky sackers. Don't ask me why, they just annoy me
*Early, early risers in shelters. Or people who come in at eleven o'clock
*Trail dogs that snap at people
*Trail dogs that get all over your stuff when they're sopping wet or filthy
*Trail dogs that knock you down on the Trail or jump on you
*Trail dogs that bark
*Trail dogs that chase wildlife
*Trail dogs that crap in campsites
*Trail dogs that are pest bastards in hostels
*Trail dogs
*Southbounders who cop attitudes, even when at the time you meet them,
they've done 400 miles, and you're past 1700
*Southbounders who insist on expounding why their trip is tougher, better,
etc.
*Southbounders in general

Hmmm, all for now.

One last pet peeve: People who complain too much or have too many pet peeves.

Kinda like the guy who wrote the above!!

wyclif
01-22-2006, 16:31
*Horrible trail musicians who assume everyone wants to hear them play
or sing at the end of the day

Jack, that first one is the best! If I have to listen to one more baby-boomer/hippy wannabee/fuzzy tie dye guy badly fingerpicking an acoustic guitar or banjo thinking he's the AT answer to Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger, I think I'll puke.

Just Jeff
01-22-2006, 16:39
People who assume that, because my back is 20lbs less than theirs, I don't have what I need to be safe and comfortable. It's ok when it's just the look like, "Well, I hope you know what you're doing." Other times, it's the constant offering of little things like extra food and water. I guess it's the other side of the gram-counting moochers, and I'm glad I hike with nice people who would offer to help like that...but the constant judgements, and being called a minimalist (when I'm not, at least by WB standards!)...I just can't take the prejudice from the packweightists!!

gargamel
01-22-2006, 16:49
*Hacky sackers. Don't ask me why, they just annoy me


What the heck is a hacky sacker :confused:

Jack Tarlin
01-22-2006, 16:51
It's a small, usually knitted little footbag that hikers like playing with, usually in the evening, usually while stoned. People that don't play find the game indescribably silly.

bfitz
01-22-2006, 17:02
I find easily annoyed people annoying. The more easily you are annoyed the more annoying I find you. If you also freely express your annoyance, then you are at the top of my list. People who camp near the fire and complain about the noise everyone still around it makes while they are trying to sleep. People who complain about talking and noise at the shelter at night who get up before light and make a bunch of noise cooking, packing, talking etc. Anyone who thinks what I'm doing (talking on a cell phone, carrying on at a campsite, etc etc.) is somehow wrong and not to be tolerated because they feel they have to stay near me for some reason. Whiners and complainers and "my way is the right way" people are second on the list....

wyclif
01-22-2006, 17:02
It's a small, usually knitted little footbag that hikers like playing with, usually in the evening, usually while stoned. People that don't play find the game indescribably silly.

You'll also see hack-sackers a lot on college campuses.

No love for stoner hacky-sackers from Jack, eh? :D

Just to play devil's advocate for a sec, but the game does serve a purpose even though the only rule is 'keep the sack in the air w/o using your hands.' It's used to improve soccer skillz.

gargamel
01-22-2006, 17:03
Ah, now I've got it. As I learned my english there was no such a thing like a hacky sack. At first I supposed it to be a nickname for people from Hackensack, NJ :D

bfitz
01-22-2006, 17:04
...and southbounders...

Peaks
01-22-2006, 17:06
Gee Jack, is there anyone that doesn't annoy you?

Peaks
01-22-2006, 17:08
But, I will add one to Jack's list:

Hikers who think they are entitled to special treatment just because they are doing a long distance hike

swift
01-22-2006, 17:23
Tray Mountain Shelter, April 5th 2005. This guy is the last one to walk in just before dark and decides he is going to stay in the already full shelter. He sits his big ass down on MY sleeping bag and asks me what my altimeter reads then tells me he it is wrong. Then he asks what the map says the elevation is here, which someone shows him the map and he says THATS wrong too. So he gets someone else to get the data book out so he can say that is also wrong. By this time its already dark, I havent been able to get near my sleeping bag cause he is still sitting on it, and he launches into a diatribe of how he is a cartographer, blah blah blah. Somewhere around 9 oclock I finally recover my bag, everyone else is in theirs with lights out not saying a word and our boy hasnt missed a beat talking to himself about how he lives on the trail and prefers to walk at night, and everyone is wishing he would go ahead and do that. I set my tent up behind the shelter where I get settled down by 10 and fall asleep to the drone of this guy's voice. I found out in the morning that he also talked in his sleep all night. OH! and he is Whiteblazer regular. <snicker>

Mouse
01-22-2006, 17:27
There was the man who slept like he was alone in a giant king-sized bed at home, not a crowded shelter. He spent most of the night rolling on top of me in his sleep and I spent it awake fending him off. I found myself wishing I'd smacked him with a bootheel right off.

Jack Tarlin
01-22-2006, 17:33
Peaks:

Well for one, YOU don't annoy me.

And as to the one you added, about entitled and needy hikers who think they're special because they're thru-hiking, well thanks for adding it, but it's already on the list!

wyclif
01-22-2006, 17:37
*Southbounders in general

Wow, SOBOs get no love from Baltimore Jack. It seems he's sort of infamous for that...he even brought it up himself (while saying he's lightened up a little recently) in a phone interview I heard recently on another site.

Still, I have to wonder what SOBOs as a group did to deserve that...if he's interested in talking about it. Maybe I've just never heard a SOBO diss NOBO hikers.

I'm kind of tempted by a SOBO thru-hike, actually. I don't know much about the SOBO experience, but from what I can gather here are the issues for me:

Pros: Less crowding and touristas. Better hostel availability. Better trail magic. Better cameraderie among SOBOs, since there are fewer of them.

Cons: Climbing 16 mountains before you get out of Maine. Black flies. Snow. Ice. Cold. Wind. NOBOs treating you like a freak.

Thoughts?

Jack Tarlin
01-22-2006, 17:44
Wyclif:

My disdain for Southbounders is widely known.

What is less widely known, evidently, is that I'm kidding.

I actually have a great deal of respect for them, and in truth, could care less about which direction someone chooses to hike.

It ain't anybody's bidness which way one decides to go.

wyclif
01-22-2006, 17:51
Jack,

Thanks for clearing that one up.

Another thing about a SOBO hike: you get to meet a lot of NOBOs that make it past the halfway point. That in itself might be interesting.

hopefulhiker
01-22-2006, 18:42
Hey Jack, What about hikers who insist on talking politics?

drsukie
01-22-2006, 18:50
Wow....where to begin?

In no particular order, here are a few things that would drive me nuts if I let 'em...lota dn lots of stuff.....

I want to hike with you! :jump You got it down, bro..... Sue

Jack Tarlin
01-22-2006, 18:55
If the political conversation is desired by both parties, it's no trouble.

If it's clear that someone isn't interested in the conversation, then it's rude to continue.

If the conversation is heated to the point that it might be disturbing others, the conversation should be ended or moved elsewhere.

Is it proper to initiate a conversation by blunting asking someone a political question, such as "Did you vote for (BLANK)?" Or "Are You Pro-Choice?" No, of course it isn't, anymore than it is back home.

It is OK to use language (either racial, profane, or disgusting) that is likely to offend others? No, of course not.

But talking politics on the Trail? Sure it's OK, provided everyone's OK with the subject. But be aware that in many cases, when someone does initiate a political subject, it won't be long til someone else says "No offense, but politics is one thing I'm out here to get away from."

The Desperado
01-22-2006, 19:02
Ref Balt. Jacks list---I dont care who you are, now that their's funny. That's the way it would be said around here back about 25 years ago. I really enjoyed it Jack! ha ha Thanks.....D

Chef2000
01-22-2006, 19:09
Most annoying hiker, one who starts to follow you when you have been hiking alone for 700 miles. This one dogged me for hundrdeds of miles. A hiker who tends to exagerate things, to point of blatantly lying to everyone then asking you to confirm his/her story.

Anyhiker who asks me "Whats your favorite dish to cook" or "whats your specialty".

Jack Tarlin
01-22-2006, 19:15
Gee, fella, think that had anything to do with the Trail name you gave yourself? :)

Ridge
01-22-2006, 19:17
Everything Jack Tarlin listed in post #13 plus these (and I'm sure a lot more if I really thought about it):

*Trail dogs that pee on other hikers stuff in shelters
*Trail dogs off their leash
*Trail dogs/owners bathing in water sources
*Hikers who toss aluminum foil, cans in fires/fire rings
*Hikers that litter

Topcat
01-22-2006, 19:37
You touched a nerve with the littering. When hiking with kids, i always have a prize back at the trailhead for the kid who comes out with the most trash.

DavidNH
01-22-2006, 19:48
just to add a couple.. Jack's long list is a great start..

anyone who brings a dog to a shelter and is either unable or unwilling to get the dog to shut the hell up

anyone that talks on a cell phone on a mountain summit or at a shelter who doesnt have the decency to recognize some of us actually LIKE peace and quiet!

David

Nightwalker
01-22-2006, 19:50
He sits his big ass down on MY sleeping bag and asks me what my altimeter reads then tells me he it is wrong.
Oh, so THAT'S why you were being such a jerk that night! You got insulted because I questioned your altimeter. I thought you were just a #$%&ing @$$hole.

Nice to know what really started it!

Chef2000
01-22-2006, 20:24
I did not give myself this trail name. It was given to me on the second day of my thru hike because I was cookin up a sweet lunch while the other hiker was eating a cold lunch on a cold March day.

Whistler
01-22-2006, 21:43
Just to play devil's advocate for a sec, but the game does serve a purpose even though the only rule is 'keep the sack in the air w/o using your hands.' It's used to improve soccer skillz.
One thing to clear up. The generic word is 'footbag'. Hacky-Sack is a brand name. footbag:Hacky-Sack::tissue:Kleenex. No big deal, though. I still say Coke for soda.

It's not just for soccer, either, it's an end in itself! I enjoy it more solo or with a couple other really skilled folks. It's more enjoyable when the group is sober enough to keep it off the ground.:jump

As for annoyances... I'll say ditto for much of what's already been said. Probably the number one for me is space hogs (bedding spread everywhere in the shelter, cookware all over the table, dirty socks drying on all the hooks). Oh, and snoring. That especially hurts early risers like me.

-Mark
Member, World Footbag Association

Nean
01-22-2006, 22:14
Everybody pisses me off!!!! I do like when Jack plays at a drum circle however.:D

Wolf - 23000
01-22-2006, 22:17
Hikers who ask, “What do you carry? (gear related)”, especially from hikers that I just met. I don’t know how many times I had “long distance hikers” who expected me to drop everything to give them a break down on what I was carrying or pull out everything out of my pack.
Hikers that bi#ch or gossip about others, in the register or out in the open. I have seen it really ruin some people hikers.
Hikers that complain about how much weight they are carrying but do nothing about it.
Hikers that B.S. all they have done. Wolf

neo
01-22-2006, 22:32
i hate crowds,crowds annoy me:cool: neo

blindeye
01-23-2006, 00:03
jack tarlin i love the bitch list

walkin' wally
01-23-2006, 12:37
There was the man who slept like he was alone in a giant king-sized bed at home, not a crowded shelter. He spent most of the night rolling on top of me in his sleep and I spent it awake fending him off. I found myself wishing I'd smacked him with a bootheel right off.

I was trying to sleep in a lean to in Maine with a "traveler" who had to move about 3 1/2 feet to the west before he collided with me. He seemed to be doing his best to ram me into the guy on the other side of me. This was all done in his sleep while snoring very loud all night and never missing a beat. Not once.
I was out on the trail at 5:30 am and I was the last one awake to leave the shelter while the guy was still snoring away. His hikng partners said they were going to do long miles that day. I wondered why. There were only 4 of us in the shelter so he had plenty of room, but I guess not enough.

Some folks here say that they don't stay in shelters. Maybe this is one reason why. :D

Mouse
01-23-2006, 12:51
Well, it only happened to me once on the entire trail so it seems not too large a problem.

Moxie00
01-23-2006, 13:30
Jack hit home on several counts, especially dogs. There are some great trail dogs that behave and are a pleasure to hike with, "Winter" and "Hayden" come to mind. One hiker picked up a stray near Hampton Tn. and all the way to Vermont it pissed on sleeping bags, junped on tents, stole food, and barked all night. A dog that supposedly won best trail dog at Trail Days was the worst begger I have ever met. You couldn't open a snickers or open your food bag without this dog jumping and drooling all over you. As for people, a guy who decided to be my hiking partiner without asking me was super annoying. He stayed about 100 feet behind me and yelled to me or sang at the top of his lungs all day. When I stopped for lunch and was adimant I wanted to eat alone he just went around the next corner and sat down and waited for me. I was polite but firm but he never got the message and stuck to me like stink to *****. Once I got ahead of him and he hitched ahead to catch up with me. In Boiling Springs he got to "Mother Hen's" ahead of me so rather than a bed and a hot meal I backed up and camped out in a corn field and ate noodles just to get away from him. After Boiling Springs he realized the trail wasn't for him and went home but he really spoiled Harpers Ferry to Boiling Springs for me. I don't mind hikers short of money but I hate hikers short of money that seem to think every other hiker should support them. Cel Phones are a pain in the ass until you need one yourself and you can distance yourself from anyone else to use it. I too dislike people who are critical of your pack size and weight and tell you how you should pack without finding out you are not remotely intrested in their ideas. I love occasional good advice but don't try to sell me your life and hiking style. I am amused by "born again Christian" hikers and most of them shut up when they realize they are not converting you. Of course the person who has no tent and demands a place in the shelter is the king of annoying. About 98% of the hikers and about .02% of the dogs are a pleasure to be with on the trail but annoying people and dogs can ruin a good day on the trail.

Ridge
01-23-2006, 13:37
....Some folks here say that they don't stay in shelters. Maybe this is one reason why. :D

I stopped staying in shelters years before my thru hike. The general rule at shelters is that "its not full until everyone's inside" is a bad rule. I think the most used and usually the most crowded shelter is the "Ice Water Spring" shelter in the GSMNP, due to its proximity to Newfound. The times I've stayed at shelters (in my earlier days) I experienced problems involving hikers with their dirty stinking mutts, overcrowded shelters, and people keeping you up all night ie: hikers coming in at all times of the night or those leaving at 3 am and those who want to party all night then sleep all day. I did stop at shelters to prepare meals and visit people I had met on the trail, but never to stay.

Footslogger
01-23-2006, 13:39
Weather plays a huge role in one's decision whether to stay in a shelter or not. A lot of use stayed in shelters WAY more than we would have liked due to the rain in 2003.

But in general I would agree that the less you stay in shelters the better off you tend to be in terms of dealing with others who you might find annoying.

'Slogger

RLC_FLA
01-23-2006, 15:21
During our thru in '89, we learned to say NO politely but firmly early on in our hike. "Can i borrow your kinfe"?"NO", "Would you mind filtering a quart of water for me?",. "NO", "Do you mind if I hang my wet socks on your line?". "NO". Our thought were, If you didn't want to carry something up the mountain, you didn't need to use ours.

While we were hiking the Georgia section we met up with this one guy we called the "Gap Geek", seems like everytime we came to a road crossing there he was, sitting there with some kind of alcholic beverage, saying "Hi, I was wondering where your were" Not your normal hiker trash, this guy wore Converse Allstars, small backpack and tried to yogi everyone he met. The last we saw of him was when we left Icewater Springs in the Smokies, he had hitched down to Gatlinburg, got a bottle of booze, came into the shelter about 8:30 p.m. and passed out in the dirt. During the night, the resident skunks, got into this 5 # bag or gorp and had a field day. Did you know that skunks fighting sound just like cats? The shelter was full to overflowing due to a major rainstorm. It's lucky we all wern't gassed!

RLC_FLA
GAME->89

Ridge
01-23-2006, 16:07
The ones that usually borrow the most are the (mostly inexperienced) "light" hikers. Guess why they need to borrow stuff? Another reason to stay from shelters, is the borrowing. I use a sierra zip wood-burning stove and have had on many occasions been asked if they could use it because they didn't have enough fuel, blah, blah, blah. I tell them sure if they don't mind sharing their meal, about half the time they say they didn't have enough food, those don't use the stove! I really hate hikers who want to borrow or bum things, especially food. Some even take offense that you won't share. My attitude: Stay the hell away from me if you can't support yourself!

max patch
01-23-2006, 16:29
On trail, hikers who spread their crap all over the shelter taking up space that 4 hikers could fit in. And then who really act annoyed when you ask them to move their stuff.

In town, hikers who don't follow the rules of hostels. If you are staying in a church -- and the church has a no alcohol policy -- then don't drink alcohol on site. Get a hotel room or drink in a restaurant. Followed closely by hikers who stiff the donation box and/or don't pitch in and clean up after themselves.

Sly
01-23-2006, 16:30
What's worse is when they pilfer from the donation box. One hiker can ruin it for everyone.

Ridge
01-23-2006, 16:42
Reading the last two post reminds me of how I've been to shelters where a "Group" of (mostly weekend hikers) seem to claim ownership or exclusive occupancy rights to the shelter and didn't want my stinking butt in there. I was on a week long trek and hadn't been to the beauty shop or spa since beginning my trip, so I guess it didn't suit them for me being there. These people have an arrogance and attitude that belongs at the country club not at trail shelters. Just another reason to tent!

sparky2000
01-23-2006, 16:54
I liked Cherokee's dog last year. Quiet and bred to roam..

walkin' wally
01-23-2006, 16:59
I stopped staying in shelters years before my thru hike. The general rule at shelters is that "its not full until everyone's inside" is a bad rule. I think the most used and usually the most crowded shelter is the "Ice Water Spring" shelter in the GSMNP, due to its proximity to Newfound. The times I've stayed at shelters (in my earlier days) I experienced problems involving hikers with their dirty stinking mutts, overcrowded shelters, and people keeping you up all night ie: hikers coming in at all times of the night or those leaving at 3 am and those who want to party all night then sleep all day. I did stop at shelters to prepare meals and visit people I had met on the trail, but never to stay.

I think, in a way, it is kind of too bad about not wanting to stay in a shelter. Some of the ones in the south look really nice. At least they look a lot more elaborate that the ones we have here in Maine and maybe quite dry in bad weather. I guess I prefer now to tent out away from the shelters. I guess it all comes down to people. I have had some positive experiences in shelters though. Some great trail stories.

wyclif
01-23-2006, 17:13
I love dogs as pets. My family has owned many Labrador Retrievers, and they were all gentle, loving creatures...good with children too.

BUT, I can't stand dogs in the shelters. The shelters are for people. Even worse are dog owners who think it's not their responsibility to control their dog, not let it dry itself in the shelter, keep it from jumping on hikers, begging for food...it's ridiculous.

I noticed there are a few threads here on Whiteblaze about taking dogs NOBO this year. Do these hikers know that dogs aren't allowed in GSMNP?

Ridge
01-23-2006, 17:27
...I guess I prefer now to tent out away from the shelters. I guess it all comes down to people. I have had some positive experiences in shelters though. Some great trail stories.....

Shelters are at their worse during the "peak" seasons/times. I may tent near by (visiting the shelter/other hikers) but never again to sleep. The distance I tent is in direct proportion to the loudness of the shelter crowd. And in reply to the prior post concerning dogs and the GSMNP, the dog hikers (or probably 90%) don't care and a lot of them will sneak, or at least try to sneak them thru the park. Hikers with dogs has been a HOT topic elsewhere on WB, I own a dog and he'll never see a "white blaze". To ME/MYSELF dog hikers have demonstrated to me a total lack of respect to other hikers, wildlife and shelter life. Oh, I guess 1 out of a dozen may do alright, but I would still ban them completely if I could.

WalkinHome
01-23-2006, 18:07
There was this guy from the Farmington area, used to work in printing I think, really good at finding errors on maps-the name escapes me at the moment but he is somewhat annoying, LOL

Almost There
01-23-2006, 18:23
People who ask to borrow your toiletpaper. I brought enough for me and if anyone is gonna be using leaves, it's you...not me!

Moxie00
01-23-2006, 19:05
There was this guy from the Farmington area, used to work in printing I think, really good at finding errors on maps-the name escapes me at the moment but he is somewhat annoying, LOL
Boy, am I with you on that one, map errors should go unnoticed. The guy should have just shut up. I just finished reading John Scott's book about his 2000 hike. I am mentioned but you are all over it. I think he talks more about Walking Home than he does Linda.

max patch
01-23-2006, 19:23
People who ask to borrow your toiletpaper. I brought enough for me and if anyone is gonna be using leaves, it's you...not me!

I "give" other people toilet paper. I never let someone "borrow" any because I sure don't want it returned!

TwoForty
01-23-2006, 19:47
Shelters are at their worse during the "peak" seasons/times. I may tent near by (visiting the shelter/other hikers) but never again to sleep. The distance I tent is in direct proportion to the loudness of the shelter crowd. And in reply to the prior post concerning dogs and the GSMNP, the dog hikers (or probably 90%) don't care and a lot of them will sneak, or at least try to sneak them thru the park. Hikers with dogs has been a HOT topic elsewhere on WB, I own a dog and he'll never see a "white blaze". To ME/MYSELF dog hikers have demonstrated to me a total lack of respect to other hikers, wildlife and shelter life. Oh, I guess 1 out of a dozen may do alright, but I would still ban them completely if I could.

How do they sneak the dog through Nefwound Gap? That place always has rangers.

He wasn't a hiker, but I thought the guy who let his horses sleep in a shelter in GSMNP the night before I got there was pretty annoying. Someone had to shovel the crap, food, and mud out, and then lay down some grass to help with the mud pit. I would have cut the horses loose if I was there.

drsukie
01-23-2006, 19:54
Reading the last two post reminds me of how I've been to shelters where a "Group" of (mostly weekend hikers) seem to claim ownership or exclusive occupancy rights to the shelter and didn't want my stinking butt in there. I was on a week long trek and hadn't been to the beauty shop or spa since beginning my trip, so I guess it didn't suit them for me being there. These people have an arrogance and attitude that belongs at the country club not at trail shelters. Just another reason to tent!

My favorite memory in this genre was hiking up to Hawk Mountain Shelter; we got in early, it was a nice day, so we dropped our packs with the only other "resident" at that time - a late-Spring Thru-hiker who was really cool -- and took off for some more hiking.

By the time we got back, the Boy Scout Troop Hell ##001 was there; they had completely taken over the shelter, the picnic table, all the common area, had Playstations et al. The dads/troop leaders did nothing. Luckily, we brought a tent just in case another friend joined us - he snores like Thor and if he joined us, we knew to skip out to the tent.;)

Well, karma wins out! We had a lovely night with no noise, it started raining in the night, sideways -- onto all the poor little scouts in the shelter (heh He), and we stayed dry and cozy. They left early all whiny and wet; we came out, made a hot cuppa, and enjoyed the day! :D Sue

PS I know not all scouts do this; friends who are troop leaders were aghast at this behavior.

Ridge
01-23-2006, 20:16
How do they sneak the dog through Nefwound Gap? That place always has rangers....

Rangers aren't there 24-7. I remember reading a journal where one hiker went thru at night at all three major points (Fontana, NFG, Davenport). Sometimes they get caught, which is a very good thing. The dogs spread parvo along with other negatives. Even if dogs where banned from the entire AT, it won't stop them, they would claim discrimination or its a bad rule and bring them anyway.

Mouse
01-23-2006, 20:28
Summer camp groups that take over the whole area of the shelter. When I was at Kirkbridge Shelter about 16 campers and 3 leaders showed up after I had turned in. They spread out this huge tarp right behind the shelter to lay their sleeping bags on while cooking supper right in front. That was all right, sort of, but then at 730pm after all the thruhikers were in bed for the night they gathered RIGHT at the open side of the shelter and started singing loudly!
:mad:

It only took a few minutes before I got out of bed, packed everything and headed down the trail a couple miles where I could tent out of earshot and sleep.

Lone Wolf
01-23-2006, 20:30
Shelters should be for short distance or overnighters only.

max patch
01-23-2006, 20:34
By the time we got back, the Boy Scout Troop Hell ##001 was there; they had completely taken over the shelter, the picnic table, all the common area, had Playstations et al.

We're not involved in scouting anymore, but when we were "no electronics" was a rule on all camping trips.

Ran into a scout troop last fall at Hawk Mtn. Everyone was tenting and only used the shelter picnic table for food prep.

wyclif
01-23-2006, 20:42
He wasn't a hiker, but I thought the guy who let his horses sleep in a shelter in GSMNP the night before I got there was pretty annoying.

Un-freakin'-believable, what some people will try to get away with regarding animals.

I respect the comment above by the dog owner and hiker who says that "my dog will never see a white blaze." If you are overheard suggesting that dogs shouldn't be on the trail, expect to hear the violins playing in the background soon. You could be branded an animal-hater, or given an application for PETA.

Still, I haven't had any bad experiences with dogs. The worst thing I can remember was a rainy night at a shelter where all of us turned in, late. Here comes a dog hiker and the first thing the dog does is get inside and shake the water off his coat and all over the sleeping hikers.

Can you expect a dog to towel-dry himself? No, but you can expect other hikers to leave their pets home.

Another thing about dogs: it's a lot easier to keep yourself healthy and out of harm's way than it is a dog. If you love your pet and he gets injured, gets in a fight with another dog or animal on the trail, or eats something you didn't see him eat and gets sick, you're off the trail whether you had the dog in a legal part of the AT or not.

smokymtnsteve
01-23-2006, 20:52
If my dog Moose gets in a fight with another dog ..the other dog will be off the trail..not Moose. ;)

Almost There
01-23-2006, 21:07
Here's the question would you want to walk barefoot and naked over 2000 miles? What makes you think your dog does? Oh yeah because our dogs love us and would follow us to hell and back! I think in decent weather and short term hikes they're fine, but dogs aren't capable of voicing injury, so until it's something potentially serious often we as people don't know. I own three dogs and have always had dogs, I can't imagine doing this to one of them. This includes a Chesapeake of Champion bloodlines, who as she aged would swim all day if you would let her. She could barely move the next day, but I think you get my point. Am I against all dogs on the trail...no, but moderation is necessary, and big miles can wear on a dog unless you have the right breed and even then....

smokymtnsteve
01-23-2006, 21:15
don't know about 2000 miles but right now I have a team of dogs in the yard that are in the final stages of training to run over 1000 miles,,,hoping they will be able it to do that mileage in about 9-10 days...depends on weather and trail conditions, hopefully it will stay cold.

and yes dogs can 'voice' injuries LOUD AND CLEAR..one just has to understand dog talk,

dog that is hurt or exhausted U can't make it run, it'll lay down and not go,,

2000 miles over a 4-6 month period is easy to a good dog.

neo
01-23-2006, 21:44
almost forgot,hard core snoring,worst i ever heard was at icewater spring trail shelter:cool: neo

Almost There
01-23-2006, 22:15
Smoky, I also said the "right" breed. If you are training dogs I am sure you know what you are doing, and so it is different, but what about the gal who brings the dog for protection, and has never gotten deeply into it like you have? With the right research and training I would agree with you, but many with dogs on the trail don't go that far!!!

RITBlake
01-24-2006, 00:49
Here's the question would you want to walk barefoot and naked over 2000 miles?

We passed a nobo girl hiking alone w/ no shoes. The bottom of her feet looked like leather and she looked like she was beyond stoned. I don't know how you could do this? No she wasn't one of the 'barefoot sisters'

bfitz
01-24-2006, 00:57
We passed a nobo girl hiking alone w/ no shoes. The bottom of her feet looked like leather and she looked like she was beyond stoned. I don't know how you could do this? No she wasn't one of the 'barefoot sisters'Doesn't sound so annoying...

RITBlake
01-24-2006, 01:08
Doesn't sound so annoying...

wasn't annoying at all. just seeing 'hiking in barefeet' jarred my memory. Interesting actually

smokymtnsteve
01-24-2006, 02:10
We passed a nobo girl hiking alone w/ no shoes. The bottom of her feet looked like leather and she looked like she was beyond stoned. I don't know how you could do this? No she wasn't one of the 'barefoot sisters'

and it be OK with me if those barefoot sisters wanted to hike nekkid.:D

Tha Wookie
01-24-2006, 02:18
About the only thing that bothered me is when people on the trail claim to be thru-hiking when they are not.

I don't like dishonesty on or off the trail.

Smile
01-24-2006, 07:32
I'm with you on that one TW!

Most annoying....hmmm. People who come in late to shelters, hours after everyone has bedded down, and proceed to noisily climb over, around and sometimes on those who are sleeping...... or cook food and talk amongst themselves just outside the shelter at the table as if they were the only ones there.

Consideration for others should be paramount - sleep is a precious commodity!

Lone Wolf
01-24-2006, 07:34
Good enough reason to totally avoid shelters. So so simple.

Smile
01-24-2006, 07:45
Lesson learned ;-)

Jack Tarlin
01-24-2006, 14:33
Good point by Wolf. A lot of people's "pet peeves involve shelters: Selfish people, loud people, obnoxious people, people playing music, people making phone calls, people who talk too much, people who don't respect your privacy, people who borrow you stuff, people who disturb your sleep, people with dogs.

The obvious simple remedy is to find a nice, secluded, private place to camp.

Note to 2006 people: There will be many times on your journey when you get to a good campsite or shelter, and it'll be either full, or perhaps not full, but crowded. You'll be disappointed, especially if you're tired and it's too late in the day to continue hiking. I suggest you follow the Trail North a few hundred feet or yards, because in most cases, you'll find excellent "spillover" campsites quite close to the shelter. (Sometimes you'll find ones just South of the shelter; all you have to do is retrace your steps for a few minutes). By staying at these places, you'll be able to enjoy the benefits of these places (i.e. good water, a picnic table for cooking, company, maybe a campfire, etc.) but you'lll also have your own private and quiet place to sleep.

Mouse
01-24-2006, 15:55
One does have to keep a sense of proportion. The people who annoyed me were a tiny tiny minority. Of all the nights I did spend in shelters there were maybe three or four that I had an annoying hiker experience.

bfitz
01-24-2006, 15:57
By staying at these places, you'll be able to enjoy the benefits of these places (i.e. good water, a picnic table for cooking, company, maybe a campfire, etc.) but you'll also have your own private and quiet place to sleep.Precisely...large groups of people gathered together tend to make a certain amount of noise, a little carrying on can raise the volume significantly...it is disrespectful to expect 10 people talking and enjoying themselves to stop for the benefit of one guy who could have put his tent just a little farther away from the fire/shelter...If you're deliberately camping close to where "everyone else" is camping expect to hear talking, singing, coughing, rustling, scraping, farting, snoring etc. and expect your guy lines to be kicked in the dark by people walking by etc etc. Also expect curious animals smelling all that food and cooking (like bears) to come sniffing around for trash once the fire dies down....If that bugs you, the woods are big...go elsewhere. That doesn't mean expect to be treated disrespectfully, just that plenty of space is conducive to human relations...

Alligator
01-24-2006, 16:08
Precisely...large groups of people gathered together tend to make a certain amount of noise, a little carrying on can raise the volume significantly...
As loud as several small species of furry animals gathered togethered in a cave and groovin' with a pict?
I couldn't resist asking Sorry.

ed bell
01-24-2006, 16:34
As loud as several small species of furry animals gathered togethered in a cave and groovin' with a pict?

Good one Gator. I'll say it would be real bizarre to hear that in the middle of the woods at night. Flashbackish if you will.;)

tlbj6142
01-24-2006, 17:45
What is less widely known, evidently, is that I'm kidding.I would hope so. The last time I saw you on the trail you were going south!

Cuffs
01-24-2006, 19:13
Hikers who ask, “What do you carry? (gear related)”, especially from hikers that I just met.
Wolf


I hate to be the party pooper on this one but...

As a person very very new to hiking, I want to ask experienced hikers that very question. I have gotten lots of great info here at WB, but putting the info into practical application is a different story.

I only would ask as a learning experience, not to critique! I may ask why you carry X product as opposed to another, but again, just to learn the why or why not...

:cool:How do you suggest this delicate situation be approached without getting blown off or not answering for fear of being criticized?

Thanks Bunches!

mingo
01-24-2006, 19:25
there was a guy i couldn't shake who constantly griped about everything. he didn't like all the hills on the a.t. and said it ought to be flat like a path in a city park. if you said, 'what a great spring!' he'd say, 'yeah, but you gotta bend down to get the water.' i don't know why he kept hiking but he finished somehow. i must have spent a dozen nights with him. i'd take two zeros and go back on the trail and there he'd be. another guy i met complained all the time about his pack weight -- 70 pounds -- but refused to get rid of anything.

Mouse
01-24-2006, 20:04
I hate to be the party pooper on this one but...

As a person very very new to hiking, I want to ask experienced hikers that very question. I have gotten lots of great info here at WB, but putting the info into practical application is a different story.

I only would ask as a learning experience, not to critique! I may ask why you carry X product as opposed to another, but again, just to learn the why or why not...

:cool:How do you suggest this delicate situation be approached without getting blown off or not answering for fear of being criticized?

Thanks Bunches!

Don't worry. The first week or so EVERYONE talks about gear. The annoying ones, the gear heads are the ones who keep on talking about gear week after week, month after month, long long after everyone else has settled their gear and lost all interest.

Lone Wolf
01-24-2006, 20:05
I hate to be the party pooper on this one but...

As a person very very new to hiking, I want to ask experienced hikers that very question. I have gotten lots of great info here at WB, but putting the info into practical application is a different story.

I only would ask as a learning experience, not to critique! I may ask why you carry X product as opposed to another, but again, just to learn the why or why not...

:cool:How do you suggest this delicate situation be approached without getting blown off or not answering for fear of being criticized?

Thanks Bunches!
Tell the person you are inexperienced and you're not prying and you're just trying to gain info.

MOWGLI
01-24-2006, 20:09
:cool:How do you suggest this delicate situation be approached without getting blown off or not answering for fear of being criticized?

Thanks Bunches!

Ask away Geohabit. And if you don't feel comfortable in an open forum, there are folks like myself, Youngblood, Jack Tarlin and many many others that will respond to a Private Message.

Ridge
01-24-2006, 20:19
......:cool:How do you suggest this delicate situation be approached without getting blown off or not answering for fear of being criticized?........

I didn't have the Internet before my thru-hike but boy I could have gotten a helluva lot of info I needed if I had. The one thing I still do is go and read some portions of trail journals as well as visit AT trail maintenance club sites, read about the reroutes, environ issues etc. and receive newsletters and news alerts about the AT and other trails from various groups. The web basically has it all. I'm waiting for a step-by-step video of a complete AT thru-hike so I can put a screen in front of my thread mill using the elevation controls and walk the sucker again in my house. Putting on rain gear, stripping down, threading nude on June 5 (Nat tail day), etc. I'll probably be waiting a while on that video.

Marta
01-24-2006, 21:57
Re: gear talk... If you're in a shelter and you say, "I've never used an XXX. How do you like yours?" And they say, "It's okay," and turn away, drop the subject. If, on the other hand, the other person's eyes light up and their breathing quickens, you can probably talk gear until you're both hoarse. ;-)

Belgarion
01-24-2006, 22:02
I hiked with an old Trippak III external for two thru hikes and section hikes. i run into the fashion hikers all the time saying why are you hiking with such a relic? I just smile and keep on trucking. well i had to retire the old girl this year. switched to my first internal. Hope the fashion hikers don't think I'm too out of style this time, LOL!
Belgarion

MOWGLI
01-24-2006, 22:10
I hiked with an old Trippak III external for two thru hikes and section hikes. i run into the fashion hikers all the time saying why are you hiking with such a relic? I just smile and keep on trucking. well i had to retire the old girl this year. switched to my first internal. Hope the fashion hikers don't think I'm too out of style this time, LOL!
Belgarion

Reminds me of what my 15 year old daughter said to me a few years ago. "Dad, that's so 1900s." :)

tlbj6142
01-25-2006, 00:33
I didn't see this one mentioned, but I'm sure I could have missed it....

Smoking pot in a shelter without asking if any one minds first. Damn that stuff stinks. Of course even if they are 100yds away you can still smell that $hit.

bfitz
01-25-2006, 01:20
I didn't see this one mentioned, but I'm sure I could have missed it....

Smoking pot in a shelter without asking if any one minds first. Damn that stuff stinks. Of course even if they are 100yds away you can still smell that $hit.Doing it at all in a shelter around strangers is not only impolite, but stupid....

bfitz
01-25-2006, 01:21
As loud as several small species of furry animals gathered togethered in a cave and groovin' with a pict?
I couldn't resist asking Sorry.
In fact on occasion the noises can be quite similiar....

Alligator
01-25-2006, 10:20
In fact on occasion the noises can be quite similiar....
For the interested listener, Disc 2:Track 6
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000002UA5/qid=1138198714/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8256922-5153647?s=music&v=glance&n=5174

Mouse
01-25-2006, 11:08
Smoking at all in a shelter!:mad:

smokymtnsteve
01-25-2006, 18:57
I'm with you on that one TW!

Most annoying....hmmm. People who come in late to shelters, hours after everyone has bedded down, and proceed to noisily climb over, around and sometimes on those who are sleeping...... or cook food and talk amongst themselves just outside the shelter at the table as if they were the only ones there.

Consideration for others should be paramount - sleep is a precious commodity!

same goes for dem folks dat git up too early in the mornin...

dis hikin is suppossed to B recreational which means ur sopposed to sleep in late,,,,anything b four 10 or 11 am is MUCH too early to git up,,,U disturb folks dat is still sleepin,

eric_plano
01-25-2006, 19:55
I always wondered what(if anything) I did to annoy people. I tried especially hard, as a smoker, to stay a good distance from shelters if I lit up but you never really know what annoys someone right? Snoring was the worst thing for me to deal with. Backcountry Dave was nice enough to give me some ear plugs...maybe he just wanted me to stop bitching :)

Next time around I intend to use my tent much much more.

Just Jeff
01-25-2006, 20:55
Smokers are funny sometimes. They'll go a little ways away to smoke, as if you couldn't smell it from over the next ridgeline.

As long as the effort's there I'm cool with it, though. I don't expect them to hike a mile just so I don't have to smell them, but I don't want them close enough to make my clothes and gear smell like that.

Ridge
01-25-2006, 21:14
Does the butt get:

a. tossed on the ground
b. tossed in a fire ring, fire or not
c. packed out like it should be

Wolf - 23000
01-25-2006, 21:41
I hate to be the party pooper on this one but...

As a person very very new to hiking, I want to ask experienced hikers that very question. I have gotten lots of great info here at WB, but putting the info into practical application is a different story.

I only would ask as a learning experience, not to critique! I may ask why you carry X product as opposed to another, but again, just to learn the why or why not...

:cool:How do you suggest this delicate situation be approached without getting blown off or not answering for fear of being criticized?

Thanks Bunches!

Geohabit,
><O:p></O:p>
Would you like to be asked the same question, “What do you carry?” 20 plus time a day. After a while it really gets annoying. Some hikers have even gone so far to asked me to drop everything out of my pack just to show them. I’m not talking just hikers who been out for a weekend but hikers who claim to have walk several hundred or thousand miles.
<O:p></O:p>
Most hikers spend several hundred or thousand of dollars on their equipment. You shouldn’t be advertising that, especially to someone you just met. Most hikers are not going to drop everything and spend a couple hundred bucks on equipment just because someone else is carrying it.
<O:p></O:p>
I don't mean to be untrail like but if you are out there you should already know what to carry. Worry about what you are carrying not everyone else.
<O:p></O:p>
Wolf

bfitz
01-25-2006, 23:05
Does the butt get:

a. tossed on the ground
b. tossed in a fire ring, fire or not
c. packed out like it should be
Actually, tossing a butt in the fire pit causes the filter to melt into an un-degradable nugget...packing it out and burying it in a landfill is aesthetically best, but the butt will degrade very slowly in the landfill. Just tossing it into the woods will lead to the fastest degradation of the butt...and so is the most enviro-friendly way to dispose of it (or so I've heard, input anyone...?) but least aesthetic....Many use roll your own or filterless and then there is no butt to dispose of...best tobacco solution. I only smoke what others pack in for me (sorry jack) because I don't want to smoke, but sometimes I can't help myself. (Insert Jester's famous poem here). Smokin weed is the best because there is no litter left over. Those of you who are bothered by the smell of cigarette (or other) smoke from over over 10 yards away are a little too sensitive in my opinion...however I still smoke whatever I'm smoking downwind of anyone I fear may be offended or a lawman.

mweinstone
01-25-2006, 23:37
if a thru hiker wore a cell phone and chain smoked and had earphones on loud enough to hear and made calls and smoked in the shelter and if he carryed live chickens and killed them and ate them and if he sprayed garden streangth raid all around the shelter and had a shopping cart and shot up all the time and had granades............i would offer him some of my tea and go to sleep happy to tolorate and glad to smell like his ciggeretts.i just dont care what others do. you cant piss me off. im piss proof.i like a good chalange.i am a city person. we dont flinch untill you do somthing above carjacking.

Just Jeff
01-26-2006, 00:34
im piss proof.

We should start a thread on famous WB quotes. This one would definitely be on there.

Ridge
01-26-2006, 01:27
...you cant piss me off. im piss proof...

Maybe you need to someones dog pissing on your new $200 sleeping bag or in your boots and on your socks while you sleep in a shelter. At least the bag might be "piss proof"

Clementine Lindt
01-26-2006, 02:49
Wow....where to begin?

In no particular order, here are a few things that would drive me nuts if I let 'em:

*Horrible trail musicians who assume everyone wants to hear them play
or sing at the end of the day
*Moochers, esp. smokers who refuse to purchase their own
*Folks who were too lazy or stupid to train their dogs properly before
the trip
*Innapropriate use of cell phones while in the woods
*People who ask overly personal questions when they've just met you,
esp. regarding one's religion, politics, income/profession, etc.
*Newbies that think they know it all after 20 miles
*Veterans that think THEY know it all after several thousand.
*Shelter hogs, the ones who spread all their stuff over three spaces and
act like they're doing you a HUGE favor when they move it
*Lightweight hikers who think they're entitled to a guaranteed spot in a
shelter because they don't have a tent or tarp
*Extreme gearheads who talk about equipment ad nauseum
*Whiners, particularly those who insist on providing daily updates on their
physical and medical afflictions
*People who are positive that you're interested in their bodily functions
*Couples that bicker in front of other hikers
*Couples that are too affectionate in front of other hikers
*New York Yankee fans
*People, usally younger males, that write filthy, nasty stuff in Trail registers
*People that trash talk other hikers in registers thinking it won't get back to
the people they're maligning
*People that bitch about Trail conditions and maintenance tho they've never
done any themselves
*Old timey hikers who constantly talk about how much better the Trail used
to be, and how much harder it was
*Hikers who assume that nobody cares if they're naked without realizing
how horrible they actually look when naked.
*Hikers who mooch water off you because they were too stupid or too
into the "lightweight" thing to carry enough of their own
*People who hog telephones in tiny little trail towns where there's only one
or two phones in the whole village.
*People who think that the fact that they are keeping an Internet journal
somehow entitles them to unlimited time on hostel and library computers
*People who borrow stuff and don't return it or pay you back
*People who borrow stuff and don't return it clean or in good condition
*People who borrow stuff
*People who don't tip in Trailtown restaurants
*People who are greedy about Trail Magic and take more than their share
*Hikers who get the "Trail God" mentality, and think that since they are hiking
for six months, everyone should treat them with awe, never mind give them
all sorts of stuff for free
*People who bitch about paying an overnight fee in extremely highly used
sites in Vermont......and then are buying six dollar beers in a pub two days
later
*People who are know-it-alls or are rude to the staff in Trail Outfitters,
especially when they've been on the trail all of three weeks
*Trail gossips and busybodies
*People who are obsessed with what other people are doing, and bitch about
them in registers, especially as regards whether they've slackpacked,
missed a section, etc.
*People who try to impress you with how fast they covered a section, or
how many miles they achieved that day
*People who talk about how easy a section was when it just beat the s***
out of you
*People with cute trail partners and are overly smug about it
*Cranky, grumpy, older hikers who should have hiked years earlier
*Spoiled, whiny, youger ones who need to wait a few years before hiking
*Phony intellectuals, who try to impress others with their erudition, choice of
reading matter, etc. Clue to someone being a jerk: If their trail name is
that of a Great Western Philosopher, especially from classical Greece, they
are usually insufferable.
*People that won't clean themselves up, even in a hostel or town
*People who wanna share your motel room but don't wanna pay their full
share
*People who never buy a round, but will happily let you pay for theirs
*Motel roomates who are NASCAR fans
*People who cheat hostel owners
*People who make messes in hostels and assume the proprietor will clean it
up; likewise people who won't help with household chores, even when it's
expected
*People who won't chip in on gas for a shuttle, even when they see others
doing so
*People who, when they find you pitched on a beautiful camping spot,
instantly assume that you want them to join you there and that you
welcome their company
*People hiking in the opposite direction of you, who are NEVER capable of
providing accurate info on such things as water availablity, campsites,
distance, etc., even tho they've just covered the section you're asking
them about
*People you meet as you start up a monster climb, who have just come down
it, and insist on gleefully telling you what a horrible uphill awaits you
*Likewise, hikers who go tear-assing up a really steep hill at three and a half
miles an hour, while you're sitting on a rock hawking up lung gobbets and
dying of exhaustion
*Hacky sackers. Don't ask me why, they just annoy me
*Early, early risers in shelters. Or people who come in at eleven o'clock
*Trail dogs that snap at people
*Trail dogs that get all over your stuff when they're sopping wet or filthy
*Trail dogs that knock you down on the Trail or jump on you
*Trail dogs that bark
*Trail dogs that chase wildlife
*Trail dogs that crap in campsites
*Trail dogs that are pest bastards in hostels
*Trail dogs
*Southbounders who cop attitudes, even when at the time you meet them,
they've done 400 miles, and you're past 1700
*Southbounders who insist on expounding why their trip is tougher, better,
etc.
*Southbounders in general

Hmmm, all for now.

One last pet peeve: People who complain too much or have too many pet peeves.

Kinda like the guy who wrote the above!!
wow, i think i'm in love... lol. J/J. I believe you got everything possible...

__ Clem___

Wolf - 23000
01-26-2006, 04:47
I think Jack has them all except he should leave out his jealous for southbouthers - Jack has never been able to do the AT southbound.

You know Jack southbound really is harder than Northbound. lol

Wolf

Moxie00
01-26-2006, 10:13
[quote=bfitz]Actually, tossing a butt in the fire pit causes the filter to melt into an un-degradable nugget...packing it out and burying it in a landfill is aesthetically best, but the butt will degrade very slowly in the landfill. Just tossing it into the woods will lead to the fastest degradation of the butt...and so is the most enviro-friendly way to dispose of it.
When I smoked I always tossed my old filters into rivers. I felt the female salmon could use them for tampons.
:dance :clap :dance :dance :dance :dance :-?

Sleepy the Arab
01-26-2006, 13:44
One moron who sticks out in my mind was the fellow yapping on his cell phone at Dragons tooth. Now if you've been the the Tooth, you know that there is precisely one angle to get the photo of the massive rock spire shooting up from between the trees (without actually doing any actual rock scrambling). And there, right in front of the perfect shot was this nitwit with his ear stuck to his phone for fifteen minutes. Makes me wish I could shoot lighting bolts from my fingertips like the Emperor in Star Wars.

Drum circles also annoy me to no end.

Jack Tarlin
01-26-2006, 15:13
Sorry to disagree, Mox, but cigarette butts can take years to biodegrade (I've seen estimates that say one to five years, and in some cases, longer), and garbage never belongs in a river.

Butts, like other trash, should be packed out with your other garbage.

With me, it's not that much of an issue, as mine don't have filters.

But saying it's OK to toss them in the woods?

Gotta disagree with you on this one.

Ridge
01-26-2006, 15:36
....cigarette butts can take years to biodegrade (I've seen estimates that say one to five years, and in some cases, longer), and garbage never belongs in a river........

It takes a lot longer to biodegrade when they've been stuck into cracks inside of shelter walls, platforms, etc. It's like I said before, as a volunteer who cleans up after these guys, I wish they would litter in the open so we can get at it better. Not tossing stuff in the bush's, trees, fire pits, creeks, and crevices of the shelters. I've resorted to asking those that litter, to do it in the open. Asking them to NOT litter is just a waste of energy.

gravityman
01-26-2006, 15:57
There was a hiker out this year (2005) that someone nicknamed Deet, because he was 100% repellant. I laughed and laughed over that one...

So, what was so annoying? He followed you everwhere. We would be practically running down the trail, and he would be right behind us, breathing like he was about to pass out, we'd stop to see if he would go by, but he would stop with us, and then say "Boy, you guys are the first thruhikers I've meet that I can actually keep up with." Oh, that got me mad!

Anyway, I'll agree with

People that latch on when you don't want them around.
People that smoke anywhere near a shelter. As if the hiker stench wasn't enough

Moxie00
01-26-2006, 19:19
Sorry to disagree, Mox, but cigarette butts can take years to biodegrade (I've seen estimates that say one to five years, and in some cases, longer), and garbage never belongs in a river.

Butts, like other trash, should be packed out with your other garbage.

With me, it's not that much of an issue, as mine don't have filters.

But saying it's OK to toss them in the woods?

Gotta disagree with you on this one.
That wasn't me Jack, I was responding to someone who said it was allright. The woods is no place for filters. My answer was to recycle them by letting the salmon use them in place of very little tampaxes.

Jack Tarlin
01-26-2006, 19:35
Whoops, you were indeed quoting someone else.

My regrets for the error.

saimyoji
01-26-2006, 19:37
One moron who sticks out in my mind was the fellow yapping on his cell phone at Dragons tooth. Now if you've been the the Tooth, you know that there is precisely one angle to get the photo of the massive rock spire shooting up from between the trees (without actually doing any actual rock scrambling). And there, right in front of the perfect shot was this nitwit with his ear stuck to his phone for fifteen minutes. Makes me wish I could shoot lighting bolts from my fingertips like the Emperor in Star Wars.

Drum circles also annoy me to no end.

"Uhh, excuse me. Would you mind talking on your phone over there for a minute? I'd really like to take a picture of this big rock without you in it. Thanks, I really appreciate it."

Ridge
01-26-2006, 20:19
Actually, tossing a butt in the fire pit causes the filter to melt into an un-degradable nugget...packing it out and burying it in a landfill is aesthetically best, but the butt will degrade very slowly in the landfill. Just tossing it into the woods will lead to the fastest degradation of the butt...and so is the most enviro-friendly way to dispose of it (or so I've heard, input anyone...?) but least aesthetic....Many use roll your own or filterless and then there is no butt to dispose of...best tobacco solution. I only smoke what others pack in for me (sorry jack) because I don't want to smoke, but sometimes I can't help myself. (Insert Jester's famous poem here). Smokin weed is the best because there is no litter left over. Those of you who are bothered by the smell of cigarette (or other) smoke from over over 10 yards away are a little too sensitive in my opinion...however I still smoke whatever I'm smoking downwind of anyone I fear may be offended or a lawman.

http://www.longwood.edu/CLEANVA/ciglitterarticle.htm

peter_pan
01-27-2006, 09:46
If you can't bear the weight or thought of packing cig filters out... switch to filterless butts....

Same goes for those that use coffee bags and tea bags...pack 'em out or start using instant...

Pan

Moxie00
01-27-2006, 10:19
:clap Several local farmers around me are growing a type of tobaco that doesn't seem to require filters. I guess to protect their crop from bugs and bad weather they grow alot of it in their basements with grow lights. Rather than expensive packaging they sell their crop in small zip lock bags. Most smokers seem to roll their own cigarettes and I notice the smokers are very generous and pass thier cigarettes around. There is little waste as many smokers carry small clips so they can smoke their cigarette to the very end. Other smokers use pipes so their is no waste. If every smoker would switch to this home grown tobaco we would solve the problem of filters and butts littering the trail.
:-? :dance

the goat
01-27-2006, 10:55
:clap Several local farmers around me are growing a type of tobaco that doesn't seem to require filters. I guess to protect their crop from bugs and bad weather they grow alot of it in their basements with grow lights. Rather than expensive packaging they sell their crop in small zip lock bags. Most smokers seem to roll their own cigarettes and I notice the smokers are very generous and pass thier cigarettes around. There is little waste as many smokers carry small clips so they can smoke their cigarette to the very end. Other smokers use pipes so their is no waste. If every smoker would switch to this home grown tobaco we would solve the problem of filters and butts littering the trail.
:-? :dance

perfect solution!!!!

mingo
01-27-2006, 14:28
one time, this dude started pitching orange peels onto the ground right in front of one of the shelters in the smokies. i told him that he shouldn't do that, and he said, "what are you talking about, man? orange peels are biodegradable." that's the way some people think. sure, they will biodegrade but how long will it take? and how long will people have to look at those damn orange peels before they do biodegrade? and how many mice will the orange peels attract in the meantime?

Big Dawg
01-27-2006, 14:45
:clap Several local farmers around me are growing a type of tobaco that doesn't seem to require filters. I guess to protect their crop from bugs and bad weather they grow alot of it in their basements with grow lights. Rather than expensive packaging they sell their crop in small zip lock bags. Most smokers seem to roll their own cigarettes and I notice the smokers are very generous and pass thier cigarettes around. There is little waste as many smokers carry small clips so they can smoke their cigarette to the very end. Other smokers use pipes so their is no waste. If every smoker would switch to this home grown tobaco we would solve the problem of filters and butts littering the trail.
:-? :dance


LOLOLOL,,,,,, excellent!!

Pacific Tortuga
01-27-2006, 16:21
All good beefs but I thought MOWGLI16 would object to Jack's Yankee fan one,maybe next year ........not....... :clap

RockyTrail
01-27-2006, 16:32
one time, this dude started pitching orange peels onto the ground right in front of one of the shelters in the smokies. i told him that he shouldn't do that, and he said, "what are you talking about, man? orange peels are biodegradable." that's the way some people think. sure, they will biodegrade but how long will it take? and how long will people have to look at those damn orange peels before they do biodegrade? and how many mice will the orange peels attract in the meantime?

Tell him nuclear waste is biodegradable, too, it's just a matter of time.
But the mice argument may work better in this case, as the consequences of that should be apparent to even the dimmest of bulbs...duh! :D

Ridge
01-27-2006, 16:46
Tell him nuclear waste is biodegradable, too, it's just a matter of time....... :D

Great reply, I just think it's over the head for most idiots who litter.

bfitz
01-27-2006, 17:43
I was joking a little bit about tossing the butts in the woods...aesthetics are paramount in such an environment...actually the person who told me that was criticizing tossing them in the fire, and said better to just throw them on the ground because the fire changes the butt so it may linger even longer as pollution. He also said camel butts degrade faster than other brands although I googled and found nothing. No-butt cigs and roll your own is the way to go. But those pall malls are even worse for your lungs so don't smoke em as fast...

bfitz
01-27-2006, 17:46
As far as being offended because someone is smoking inside your visual range...lighten up when they light up, it aint no big deal if they don't litter! Orange peels shoudn't be left in front of the shelter but I think it'd be ok to toss them into the woods...right?

Just Jeff
01-27-2006, 19:47
bfitz, if you're responding to me, I don't care if I can see people smoking...I just don't like it when they're close enough to make ME smell like smoke (or my gear).

But I've never really had a problem with that on the trail...just in the city. Most hikers are very considerate. And since I try to avoid shelters (and haven't thru'd yet), I haven't encountered many a-holes.

bfitz
01-27-2006, 20:09
bfitz, if you're responding to me, I don't care if I can see people smoking...I just don't like it when they're close enough to make ME smell like smoke (or my gear).
But I've never really had a problem with that on the trail...just in the city. Most hikers are very considerate. And since I try to avoid shelters (and haven't thru'd yet), I haven't encountered many a-holes.
I agree with that, they'd have to be pretty close for that to happen outdoors. It's hard to imagine someone's cigarette smoke (or whatever...) bothering me outdoors. I think shelters are great because they provide a psychological point to stop at the end of the day or whatever and share community with other hikers rather than as actual "shelters" although I've enjoyed a few in the rain...

dizzyT
01-27-2006, 20:10
Ever heard anyone claim to love dishonesty? Well there was that song Tell me Lies.......but besides that.

LostInSpace
01-27-2006, 21:27
If you can't bear the weight or thought of packing cig filters out... switch to filterless butts....

Same goes for those that use coffee bags and tea bags...pack 'em out or start using instant...

Pan

Better yet, dump the tobaco remaining in the butt, then chew and swallow the filter. Excellent source of fiber.

Dump the contents of the coffee and tea bags, then chew and swallow the bag. You get one more jolt of caffine. On second thought, you don't need to dump the contents.

Ridge
01-27-2006, 22:16
Better yet, dump the tobacco remaining in the butt, then chew and swallow the filter. Excellent source of fiber.

Dump the contents of the coffee and tea bags, then chew and swallow the bag. You get one more jolt of caffeine. On second thought, you don't need to dump the contents.

I'd also eat the staples on the bags, extra roughage!

Hikerhead
01-27-2006, 22:23
I was joking a little bit about tossing the butts in the woods...aesthetics are paramount in such an environment...actually the person who told me that was criticizing tossing them in the fire, and said better to just throw them on the ground because the fire changes the butt so it may linger even longer as pollution. He also said camel butts degrade faster than other brands although I googled and found nothing. No-butt cigs and roll your own is the way to go. But those pall malls are even worse for your lungs so don't smoke em as fast...

I would just poke a hole in the dirt with my pole, drop it in, cover it up. Very simple.

Ridge
01-27-2006, 22:28
Then I guess it would be ok to bury coke bottles, fuel cannisters, etc a few inchs below the ground.

Sly
01-27-2006, 22:29
I've tried and tried to think of something that really annoys me and the best I can come up with is someone that plops their tent down, close to mine, and then is too timid (or fearful) to even introduce themselves.

Hikerhead
01-27-2006, 22:31
Then I guess it would be ok to bury coke bottles, fuel cannisters, etc a few inchs below the ground.

I'd guess I would go back and read it again..I was refering to cigarettes.

Ridge
01-27-2006, 22:42
I'd guess I would go back and read it again..I was refering to cigarettes.

Litter is litter. What difference does size matter, if it's an inch below the surface?? If you're going to litter throw it out in the open instead of sticking it in the ground an inch or two where it will probably come back up within the 10 years it takes to biodegrade. As a trail maint. guy I see trash along with butts stuck in cracks of shelters, in fire rings , tossed in the woods. I ask those that continue to litter to do it where others cleaning up can get to it easily, instead of them having to dig out a nasty fire pit or rappelling down a hill to collect garbage that hikers toss, all while they are enjoying the beauty of the mountains!! To ask they them to stop littering all together is just a waste of breath.

MOWGLI
01-27-2006, 22:43
All good beefs but I thought MOWGLI16 would object to Jack's Yankee fan one,maybe next year ........not....... :clap

It's tough enuf being a Red Sox fan without having to hear my crap before pitchers & catchers even report.

Yup, they got Theo Epstein back, we we got what's his name (http://www.johnnydamon.net/images/players/Damon.jpg). (sorry - couldn't resist) ;)

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=3907&original=1&c=member&imageuser=91

Sly
01-27-2006, 22:44
Ridge is preaching to the choir. Must have picked it up from Jack!

Sly
01-27-2006, 22:48
Yup, they got Theo Epstein back, we we got what's his name. (sorry - couldn't resist)

You can have him. If anyone should be brought up on treason charges, it's Johnny 'baby face" Damon!

Ridge
01-27-2006, 22:57
Ridge is preaching to the choir. Must have picked it up from Jack!

Especially when a member of the choir admits to littering! I consider punching a whole in the ground and putting a butt in it littering. I would bet money within one week of cleaning out the fire-pits on the Fontana to Davenport Gap stretch that one or more of the following will be found.
1. aluminum foil 2. cans 3. butts When are hikers going to learn to stop trying to burn foil or cans??

Sly
01-27-2006, 23:23
Fontana to Davenport, but is it thru-hikers or blue jean hikers? I was only half kidding. Absolutely nothing disgusts me more than lazy, littering hikers. Most, but not all, thru-hikers have a conscience, or quickly learn from others, it's not tolerated.

Ridge
01-27-2006, 23:34
Fontana to Davenport, but is it thru-hikers or blue jean hikers? I was only half kidding. Absolutely nothing disgusts me more than lazy, littering hikers. Most, but not all, thru-hikers have a conscience, or quickly learn from others, it's not tolerated.

Things that individuals can help control while on the trail are littering, vandalizing (graffiti included), their safety. Immature Kids and immature hikers with no respect to the trail system do all the damage.

Hikerhead
01-27-2006, 23:42
Ridge- I get your point but, do you think smokers are going to carry out their butts? Yes, I suppose there will be a few that will.

Here's the options as I see them

1) Throw them in a fire---it's been pointed out that they only melt into a ball of molten plastic
2) Throw them out into the woods or on the trail. I don't like seeing them laying around anymore than anybody else.
3) Burying them in the ground. I haven't seen any studies but my guess is once they go in the ground, and I meant a couple of inches, not just below the surface, they will probably stay there unseen forever. I can't see how one would work it's way up. Even after considering frost/thaw cycles I don't see how. But I could be wrong. Educate me.
4)Carrying them out. Yes, you would hope that they would. But to be realistic, I don't think so.

Ridge
01-28-2006, 00:04
....4)Carrying them out. Yes, you would hope that they would. But to be realistic, I don't think so.

I agree, I don't think they'll get carried out either. That's why I've asked that they be tossed in the open so someone can easily pick them up and then be packed out. Like I said, asking a habitual litterer to change is a waste of breath, but maybe we can get them to throw their trash in an open place where it can easily be picked up by someone who does give a dam.

smokymtnsteve
01-28-2006, 00:34
when I worked as a caretaker in the GSMNP I would start a conversation with cig smokers,,,while talking with them I would ask "what do U do with your butts?" then I would ofer them a small zip lock bag for thier butts,,,,made jokes about "butt bags"

smokymtnsteve
01-28-2006, 00:35
when I worked as a caretaker in the GSMNP I would start a conversation with cig smokers,,,while talking with them I would ask "what do U do with your butts?" then I would ofer them a small zip lock bag for thier butts,,,,made jokes about "butt bags"

so offering a positive solution is the best ways to get results. :banana

Sly
01-28-2006, 00:35
I agree, I don't think they'll get carried out either. That's why I've asked that they be tossed in the open so someone can easily pick them up and then be packed out. Like I said, asking a habitual litterer to change is a waste of breath, but maybe we can get them to throw their trash in an open place where it can easily be picked up by someone who does give a dam.

I think it would be better to get the message across, what ever it takes, instead of saying it's Ok just throw litter on the ground where I'll pick it up. Wouldn't want to burden you and get all stressed.

Ridge
01-28-2006, 00:40
I think it would be better to get the message across, what ever it takes, instead of saying it's Ok just throw litter on the ground where I'll pick it up. Wouldn't want to burden you and get all stressed.


You never heard me say it was OK!! A sign at high litter spots should say "If you are too lazy to pack out your trash, including butts, then please leave in the open where somebody who does give a dam can easily pick it up"

bfitz
01-28-2006, 00:50
"If you are too lazy to pack out your trash, including butts, then please leave in the open where somebody who does give a dam can easily pick it up"Well put! You should add the words ignorant and jackass in there someplace.

smokymtnsteve
01-28-2006, 00:57
Give'em A Free Butt Bag!


Making The Solution To The Throwaway Pollution!

Ridge
01-28-2006, 01:01
Give'em A Free Butt Bag!


Making The Solution To The Throwaway Pollution!


You'll probably find the "Butt Bag" on the ground too.

LostInSpace
01-28-2006, 13:50
Give'em A Free Butt Bag!


Making The Solution To The Throwaway Pollution!

I see a similar solution used at some county "dog parks." Of course the tax payers are paying to have somebody keep the bag boxes stocked.

I wonder who has the greater adverse impact on the trail experience, inconsiderate smokers or inconsiderate dog owners? :-?

saimyoji
01-28-2006, 14:41
Not a smoker butt....

...could you tear the filters off BEFORE you go on your hike? Or smoke filterless?

MoBeach42
01-28-2006, 14:56
Here's probably the most bothersome story from my thruhike last year. Free Spirit and I were on our way up towards Goddard Shelter in Vermont, and we got passed by three large (burley?) "fit" middle aged men with those huge fanny packs with the rediculous shoulder harnasses. They were going faster than us, but we kept leap-frogging them because they would stop for a break, or had to wait for their stupid dogs who were really thursty (didn't bring enough water for them).

We get to the spring on Glastonberry Mtn, just south of the shelter, and these three macho men are there pumping away, we dip into the spring, they badger us by saying "you know, there's still a lot of mountain up above this spring" as we take deep gulps of ice cold water.

The killer is they show up to the shelter and ask us when we started our hikes. I answer "March 10th" and Free Spirit says with a blank stare "September". This didn't even register with these guys, and they just ignored her and continued talking to me. Fortunately they went back the way they came, and we continued north, climbed the fire tower, and were washed clean by a torrential downpour. But those guys irked us to no end.

minnesotasmith
01-28-2006, 17:21
Ridge- I get your point but, do you think smokers are going to carry out their butts? Yes, I suppose there will be a few that will.

Here's the options as I see them:

1) Throw them in a fire---it's been pointed out that they only melt into a ball of molten plastic
2) Throw them out into the woods or on the trail. I don't like seeing them laying around anymore than anybody else.
3) Burying them in the ground. I haven't seen any studies but my guess is once they go in the ground, and I meant a couple of inches, not just below the surface, they will probably stay there unseen forever. I can't see how one would work it's way up. Even after considering frost/thaw cycles I don't see how. But I could be wrong. Educate me.
4)Carrying them out. Yes, you would hope that they would. But to be realistic, I don't think so.

It's by a natural soil process called solifluction. Soil grains frequently move around a bit, especially but not solely due to freeze-thaw cycles. For example, all soil on slopes is gradually (like 1" or so a year) flowing down the slope due to gravity. Plus, there's expansion and contraction of certain clays as their water content varies (while quartz sand grains, feldspar grains, lithic grains, etc., expand little or none from water uptake), carbonates dissolving and precipitating back out of solution, different materials expanding and contracting different relative volumes as they heat up and cool off with seasons/weather changing, etc., etc.

Anyway, soil particles small-sized (relative to what's around them) tend to move down over time, while ones large relative to what's around them will tend to move upwards over time. This results in some surface piles of gravel or even cobbles or small boulders that can look eerily man-made, when they are completely natural in origin.

So, yes, I can see how a shallowly-buried cigarette butt could conceivably work its way to the surface over time. I cannot say if it would do so for certain.

lobster
01-28-2006, 17:49
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smokymtnsteve
01-28-2006, 17:55
I see a similar solution used at some county "dog parks." Of course the tax payers are paying to have somebody keep the bag boxes stocked.

I wonder who has the greater adverse impact on the trail experience, inconsiderate smokers or inconsiderate dog owners? :-?

dog poop biodegrades faster than cig butts

perhaps add a "poop disposal fee" onto canine vaccinations to pay for the service


perhaps cig sellers along the trail could affer a 'discount' to folks bringing in a FULL butt bag when they purchase cigs.

SteveJ
01-28-2006, 19:36
I see a similar solution used at some county "dog parks." Of course the tax payers are paying to have somebody keep the bag boxes stocked.

I wonder who has the greater adverse impact on the trail experience, inconsiderate smokers or inconsiderate dog owners? :-?

annoying hikers....

to me it's the hiker that walks by and automatically assumes that my dog is not controlled, or is going to run through the spring as they dip water. (I would be horrified, and make sure this never happens.) or the one that turns every 'annoying' thread into a rant about dogs.....:bse

minnesotasmith
01-28-2006, 21:31
[quote=SteveJ]annoying hikers....

"to me it's the hiker that walks by and automatically assumes that my dog is not controlled..."

Since well under 10% of loose dogs are controlled, only a very dumb hiker would presume that a loose dog he does not know is controlled. Actually, this supposition is very rational; think of it as a version of the classic Pascal's Wager, with four total possibilities.

A) If he presumes the dog is uncontrolled, acting cautiously and defensively WRT it, and it is uncontrolled, he has acted in a way that maximizes his safety WRT the chance of being bitten and perhaps prematurely ending his hike, if severe enough.

B) If he presumes the dog is uncontrolled, acting cautiously and defensively WRT it, and it is instead that relatively rare unleashed dog that is in fact under adequate control, he has acted in a way that causes no harm to anyone, only raising his blood pressure and pulse a bit for a few seconds, along with perhaps producing a quizzical look from the dog owner.

C) If he presumes the dog is under adequate control, and like most loose dogs it is nothing of the sort (completely out of control), he is at significant and completely unminimzed risk at the very least of it jumping up on him with muddy paws, knocking him down, sharing fleas with him, etc., not to excluded the unminimized chance that he will be bitten, possibly severely enough to end his hike with an expensive and painful medical problem.

D) If he presumes the dog is under adequate control, and it is one of those often-heard-about-but-rarely-seen loose-but-controlled canines, everyone goes on their way with no break in their stride, no difference from #B except that a few calories of pointless stress (and perhaps a trace of embarassment) are avoided in this relatively rare situation.

Obviously, the thinking AT hiker will choose to presume all unleashed dogs he encounters on the Trail as uncontrolled until proven otherwise.

minnesotasmith
01-28-2006, 21:34
Actually, this supposition [that all loose dogs are uncontrolled] is very rational; think of it as a version of the classic Pascal's Wager, with four total possibilities.

smokymtnsteve
01-28-2006, 21:43
we have LOTS of Dogs up here...loose ones too. big ole mean huskies, got wolf blood in them ;)

and we got lots of bears too,,,,big ole mean brown bears..not those little black "large hampsters" bears like U have along on the AT.:rolleyes:

now U go to botherin/talkin about some of these folks up here dogs, U might find yoreself in a little trouble. folks up here Worship their dogs,.. be careful Up here in AK if U come MS..cause this is DOG (and bear) country.

so as much as U are scared of dogs and bears U sure U wanna walk across AK?

minnesotasmith
01-28-2006, 21:53
I've owned three dogs that were partly or mostly Husky, and liked them a lot. BTW, for anyone who does not know this, Huskies are less likely to bite people than many other breeds are. (Something like one person a year gets killed by dogs in Alaska, a rate probably considerably lower per capita than in the lower 48, despite the innumerable dogs in AK.) A friendly dog that is under control by an owner I know, is fine with me, and probably going to fun to play with for a bit, the owner choosing to permit it. However, a loose dog I don't know has to be treated as a feral dog, capable of anything until proven otherwise.

Bears? They are a risk to be minimized, if never eliminated. I have read several books written by professionals on the subject of bear attacks, FWIW. The stupid are most of who gets mauled (usually not killed, even by a grizzly), though simple luck plays a significant factor. I will act wisely WRT them when in Alaska (where I have been twice already late last year, if too briefly for my preference), but will not keep that risk from letting me enjoy nature in this wildest of American states.

minnesotasmith
01-28-2006, 21:55
I owned a dog for years whose ancestry was predominantly wolf.

Sly
01-28-2006, 21:59
Most, if not all, of the smokers I know pack out their butts.

smokymtnsteve
01-28-2006, 22:01
I owned a dog for years whose ancestry was predominantly wolf.

we have "wolf dogs" here also....

AK sled dogs are for the most part docile animals..

SteveJ
01-29-2006, 15:07
Since well under 10% of loose dogs are controlled, only a very dumb hiker would presume that a loose dog he does not know is controlled.

However, my dog is ALWAYS LEASHED. The breed is incredibly unreliable - have read stories of highly obedience trained 9 y.o. Siberian Huskies taking off and never being see again. Therefore, SHE IS NEVER OFF LEASH. You started with the wrong assumption - the rest of your rationalization was based on a false premise.

Sleepy the Arab
01-30-2006, 00:37
"Uhh, excuse me. Would you mind talking on your phone over there for a minute? I'd really like to take a picture of this big rock without you in it. Thanks, I really appreciate it."

I know, but I went with choice B: "Uhh, excuse me, would you mind taking my picture in front of this big rock? Thanks, I really appreciate it."

River Runner
01-30-2006, 02:34
I agree with that, they'd have to be pretty close for that to happen outdoors. It's hard to imagine someone's cigarette smoke (or whatever...) bothering me outdoors. ..

Actually depending on wind direction, it's amazing how far smoke from a cigarette can travel. More than a dozen feet at least, and people aren't always considerate about lighting up around others.

minnesotasmith
01-30-2006, 05:59
However, my dog is ALWAYS LEASHED. The breed is incredibly unreliable - have read stories of highly obedience trained 9 y.o. Siberian Huskies taking off and never being see again. Therefore, SHE IS NEVER OFF LEASH.

When you encounter another hiker on the Trail, do you immediately A) step off the Trail, pulling your dog after you, B) shorten your dog's leash to under 3', and (not "or") C) interpose yourself between your dog and the other hiker, until either they are past or have clearly indicated a desire to interact with your dog? If not, you still have some work to do IMO, to not be a jerk about how you handle the responsibility undertaken when you bring a dog onto the Trail.

You know and I know (I've owned multiple Huskies, as I mentioned earlier) that few of that breed are random biters, significantly fewer than most other dog breeds. However, I still don't want to be forced (by being deprived of the option to avoid interacting with your dog if I so choose, which is my right while still getting to walk every inch of the Trail) to share your dog's hair, fleas, and mud (from him jumping up on me). Plus, many people who have not owned that breed will not know that, not to mention that smaller/weaker people (younger children, some old people, the handicapped, and some of the tinier women) are at risk of being knocked down by even a friendly dog that's over 30 pounds as even the female Huskies are.

minnesotasmith
01-30-2006, 06:11
Actually depending on wind direction, it's amazing how far smoke from a cigarette can travel. More than a dozen feet at least, and people aren't always considerate about lighting up around others.

From personal experience, I'd say forty feet is not a rare distance that the fumes from tobacco use can be detected by someone who still has an intact sense of smell. Tobacco users are IMO comparable in their motivations to alcoholics, addicts of heroin/cocaine, etc.; the feeling they get from using their drug of choice (it's not that important, but they come to think it is) is so important to them that their getting their fix is commonly more important to them than laws, family loyalty, safety (what rational person would smoke near in-use gas pumps, as I have seen done multiple times?), health, fiscal responsibility (such as having insufficient money left over post-drug-purchasing to finish a thruhike in some cases I have read about), let alone simple common courtesy. Why else would someone ever use tobacco in town when there was any question of their having enough money to finish their hike, let alone light up within sight of (let alone on/in) the Trail or a shelter, for that matter?

gargamel
01-30-2006, 10:05
MS, is there any topic you don't make a sermon out of it? You almost made me think the only reason you ask questions or comment postings on WB is to answer the response with an extensive statement of your own (apparently carved in stone) opinion. It's not what you say (even though I seldom share your point of view, to each his own), but rather how you say it. With this attitude you will probably go down in history as the lonliest hiker who ever attempted to thruhike the AT.

Just let me quote 2 other members, hoping you will think about the meaning of their posts:

"i imagine that if you make the big k youll be a guy who changes the most personality wise. right now your you. and we all like you. but your so you that the future you is having a hard time finding space .[mweinstone]"

"Just get the hell out there and tell us about it when you get back.[Hikerhead]"

Don't take this post as an offense, but rather an expression of my sentiment.

general
01-30-2006, 10:33
[quote=SteveJ]annoying hikers....

"to me it's the hiker that walks by and automatically assumes that my dog is not controlled..."

Since well under 10% of loose dogs are controlled, only a very dumb hiker would presume that a loose dog he does not know is controlled. Actually, this supposition is very rational; think of it as a version of the classic Pascal's Wager, with four total possibilities.

A) If he presumes the dog is uncontrolled, acting cautiously and defensively WRT it, and it is uncontrolled, he has acted in a way that maximizes his safety WRT the chance of being bitten and perhaps prematurely ending his hike, if severe enough.

***? where do you get this s**t. have you done years of research on the subject or do you just pull this stuff out of your a**? dogs are sensitive to fear, so i would say that if you've had problems with 90% of dogs that you've met, you created the problem yourself. a defensive stance against an aggressive dog would only provoke the dog to bite you.

it's the folks who draw their hiking stick on my dog for no reason that really makes me mad. when i'm off trail, hand on dog's collar, and someone still has to raise their stick as they walk by, threatening myself and dog, i just want to let him go and tell him to sick balls. oh, and by the way, hit him with that stick and see what happens. he's gonna tear you a new a** and i'm gonna let him.

minnesotasmith
01-30-2006, 11:15
After I said: "Since well under 10% of loose dogs are controlled,"

He/she said: "***? where do you get this s**t. have you done years of research on the subject"

Try forty-four years of observing people with dogs, including multiple occasions of loose dogs I either ignored or did not know were there run up and bite me (not once while I was on the owner's property, BTW), invariably resulting in grossly insufficient response by the owner as to rectifying the situation. Ridge's dog encounter on the Trail is NOT a unique occurrence with loose dogs, I can assure you.

How many years of research have you personally done on this subject, now?

general
01-30-2006, 11:55
After I said: "Since well under 10% of loose dogs are controlled,"

He/she said: "***? where do you get this s**t. have you done years of research on the subject"

Try forty-four years of observing people with dogs, including multiple occasions of loose dogs I either ignored or did not know were there run up and bite me (not once while I was on the owner's property, BTW), invariably resulting in grossly insufficient response by the owner as to rectifying the situation. Ridge's dog encounter on the Trail is NOT a unique occurrence with loose dogs, I can assure you.

How many years of research have you personally done on this subject, now?

im 30. been hikin since i was 4 or 5. even as a child, i never, NEVER, have had a problem with any dog on the trail. but, again, i ain't afraid of dogs. again, dogs sense fear, therefore if you project that fear towards a dog, it will treat you as a weaker being and procede to remove you from society. that's Darwin's conclusion which came from a hell of a lot more than 44 years of self proclaimed knowledge. no fear, no problem. therefore, by being afraid, you have created your own problem. you are your own worst enemy in this case. i've hiked with dogs for over 15 years and have never had a problem with those dogs either. the only time i have ever experienced aggressive behavior from a dog was just after someone raised their stick at said dog. can't blame him for that. what would you do if someone threatened you with their stick. if someone smacked the s**t out of you would you like it? im pretty sure that would piss just about anyone off don't you think? oh, my dog did snarl at someone who tried to make off with my pack once. good boy. if you're that afraid of dogs, what do you think about mountain lions? a bobcat should paralize you with fear. your more likely to break your ancle than be attacked by a dog. does that scare you too. better just stay at home and watch some tv then.

general
01-30-2006, 12:01
minnesotasmith,

i've got a new reason to hike with a dog, and that's to keep people like you away from me, as to not degredate my hiking experience. is it working?

RedneckRye
01-30-2006, 12:15
After reading thru this entire thread I think I have a new plan for my Springer to Erwin section this spring. I'm getting a dog, maybe two. I'm gonna start smoking. And I'm going to carry a couple of back up batteries for my cell phone. Who says you can't have solitude on the southern AT in the springtime. :)

minnesotasmith
01-30-2006, 16:27
im 30. been hikin since i was 4 or 5. even as a child, i never, NEVER, have had a problem with any dog on the trail. but, again, i ain't afraid of dogs. again, dogs sense fear, therefore if you project that fear towards a dog, it will treat you as a weaker being and procede to remove you from society. that's Darwin's conclusion which came from a hell of a lot more than 44 years of self proclaimed knowledge. no fear, no problem. therefore, by being afraid, you have created your own problem. you are your own worst enemy in this case. i've hiked with dogs for over 15 years and have never had a problem with those dogs either. the only time i have ever experienced aggressive behavior from a dog was just after someone raised their stick at said dog. can't blame him for that. what would you do if someone threatened you with their stick. if someone smacked the s**t out of you would you like it? im pretty sure that would piss just about anyone off don't you think? oh, my dog did snarl at someone who tried to make off with my pack once. good boy. if you're that afraid of dogs, what do you think about mountain lions? a bobcat should paralize you with fear. your more likely to break your ancle than be attacked by a dog. does that scare you too. better just stay at home and watch some tv then.

Do you have any objective (hint: nonanecdotal) evidence for this position, or is it one you reached through reading supermarket checkout lane magazines?

JoeHiker
01-30-2006, 16:36
Me!

I might have been an annoying hiker one night this fall when I was hiking the Long Trail. After 10 nights by myself in shelters, I came to one that had 2 college students. I was so happy to be at a place with other people that I talked their ears off, I'm sure. I couldn't help myself. I had never been alone in the woods for before this hike and 10 nights of it really got to me.

Fiddler
01-30-2006, 16:55
dogs sense fear, therefore if you project that fear towards a dog, it will treat you as a weaker being.
no fear, no problem. therefore, by being afraid, you have created your own problem. you are your own worst enemy in this case.

Do you have any objective (hint: nonanecdotal) evidence for this position, or is it one you reached through reading supermarket checkout lane magazines?
I have been told of this "dogs sense fear" thing by several dog trainers I have dealt with in the past. This also gives the dog it's own fear of you possibly causing a "defensive" aggression. But then what do dog trainers know?

SteveJ
01-30-2006, 17:04
When you encounter another hiker on the Trail, do you immediately A) step off the Trail, pulling your dog after you, B) shorten your dog's leash to under 3', and (not "or") C) interpose yourself between your dog and the other hiker, until either they are past or have clearly indicated a desire to interact with your dog? If not, you still have some work to do IMO, to not be a jerk about how you handle the responsibility undertaken when you bring a dog onto the Trail.

You know and I know (I've owned multiple Huskies, as I mentioned earlier) that few of that breed are random biters, significantly fewer than most other dog breeds. However, I still don't want to be forced (by being deprived of the option to avoid interacting with your dog if I so choose, which is my right while still getting to walk every inch of the Trail) to share your dog's hair, fleas, and mud (from him jumping up on me). Plus, many people who have not owned that breed will not know that, not to mention that smaller/weaker people (younger children, some old people, the handicapped, and some of the tinier women) are at risk of being knocked down by even a friendly dog that's over 30 pounds as even the female Huskies are.

MS, the answers are: A) yes, B) yes, and c) yes. My initial post was that hikers see me doing these things, and still assume my dog is out of control - and yes, it's happened. I agree with your other points, which is why I do A,B, and C. And yes, I get extremely irritated when someone's out of control, off-leash dog comes running up and either is aggressive with me or my dog, or attempts to play with me or my dog. The point is that just because a dog is on the trail doesn't mean that it's out of control and is about to jump on you and knock you down.

...frankly you're supporting my earlier post. Let's assume we're having a discussion in a thread about water at water sources, and I 'dip' and treat and you filter. My perception is that most who filter aren't careful about stirring up crap for those of us who dip. However, I wouldn't assume just because you say that you filter that you're a jerk, and in a public post imply that since you filter you're an inconsiderate jerk unless you do A), B) and C) and "still have some work to do". I'd give you the benefit of the doubt until you proved me wrong.

Prejudice in any form is not pretty.....

I need to get out and hike......

general
01-30-2006, 17:30
Do you have any objective (hint: nonanecdotal) evidence for this position, or is it one you reached through reading supermarket checkout lane magazines?

um, lets see here. Darwin's theory of natural selection, you know, survival of the fittest, i believe has been proven time and time again.

also, i've witnessed a dog's ability to "sense fear" on several occasions myself, and as Fiddler stated, it is a known fact among dog trainers.

i hardly believe that a story about a dog's senses would be important enough to make it to print. a**hole dog nazis on the trail, now there is a useful, informative story for you.

gargamel
01-30-2006, 17:40
Do you have any objective (hint: nonanecdotal) evidence for this position, or is it one you reached through reading supermarket checkout lane magazines?

Have YOU ever shown ANY objective evidence other than your own opinion?

Ok, let's take this for startes:

Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0966048407/sr=1-6/qid=1138655086/ref=sr_1_6/102-4203946-9564153?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

The Other End of the Leash (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034544678X/qid=1138655312/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-4203946-9564153?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

I'm not sure the authors have the same credibility than you (44 years of extensive life experience with dogs), so you may probably not accept their arguments to be valid.

Ridge
01-30-2006, 19:33
You people who carry a dog on the AT need to forget about the laws in the GSMNP and Baxter SP. Hell, your dog hikes the entire trail and then can't summit Katahdin. Just forget the Rangers and go for it. After all, doesn't your dog deserve the great outdoors?

SteveJ
01-30-2006, 19:46
You people who carry a dog on the AT need to forget about the laws in the GSMNP and Baxter SP. Hell, your dog hikes the entire trail and then can summit Katahdin. Just forget the Rangers and go for it. After all, doesn't your dog deserve the great outdoors?

I'm not sure what you're implying, Ridge. I'm not a thru-hiker. Not really even a section hiker. I've done the trail in MD, a few miles of the trail in the Shenandoah section, and most of GA. But I think it would be generous to describe me as a section hiker. Would love to thru-hike one day. Do hike at least once a month - did about 400 miles last year. Always take my dog. I haven't discussed taking my dog in GSNMP, or Baxter. Wouldn't dream of it.

oh, I guess by "You people..." you weren't referring to me..... Of course, anytime I hear a statement that starts with "You people" I usually tune out because from past experience I know that I'm going to hear a generalization that I probably don't agree with, or is not relevant to me, or to anyone else for that matter....

damn. I signed up to learn about the AT, and it seems like most of the threads I get involved in are about my right to ethically and legally hike with my puppy!

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=9360&c=517

Ridge
01-30-2006, 19:51
If its good enough for the GSMNP and Baxter SP, its good enough for the rest of the AT. Dogs should not be allowed on the AT, period.

Ender
01-31-2006, 10:16
Blah blah blah blah blah... isn't this thread about annoying hikers and not dogs? Oh, wait, I guess it is about annoying hikers that go on and on and on and on and on about dogs ad nauseum.

Some people love them, some people hate them, and some people couldn't care less. That's just the way it is.

Lone Wolf
01-31-2006, 10:18
No Leki Poles On The At!

RockyTrail
01-31-2006, 13:15
I hate it when you pass by a hiker and they can't control the leki poles

you'll put yer eye out with those things!

Bunny
01-31-2006, 14:40
I was going on a three day hike with a group of people from my college (Blood Mt. area). One of the guys who came along was highly unprepared - he tried to hike in men's loafers instead of boots or sneakers and his backpack weighed about 60 pounds. He brought all 9 bottles of medications he was on - I am still not sure why he thought severe asthma and backpacking would be a good combination. To make the trip even more enjoyable, he complained without ceasing. The final straw for me was on the last night of our hike. He had brought an emergency blanket with him - one of those thin, shiny plastic things. It had been drizzling on and off, but we were all warm and dry and setting up in a shelter. He, apparently, was bored and wanted to try out his emergency blanket. He took it out and wrapped it around him. I started calling it the space blanket because it looked like the alien suits from bad 1950s horror films. As we all settled down to sleep, he would NOT stop messing with the thing. It made the most annoying (and loud) rustling sounds. It sounded like someone frantically waving a six-foot piece of alumimum foil over and over and over again. I'm afraid I said something really rude about if he didn't stop it I was going to shove that stupid blanket somewhere unmentionable. At any rate, I won't go on another trip with him. Ever.

smokymtnsteve
01-31-2006, 17:24
Do you have any objective (hint: nonanecdotal) evidence for this position, or is it one you reached through reading supermarket checkout lane magazines?

in my work training dogs I have found that the dogs pick up VERY easily on your feeling and attittudes,,,be they positive or negative,

yes dogs are very smart animals who think, communicate and react.

smokymtnsteve
01-31-2006, 17:28
If its good enough for the GSMNP and Baxter SP, its good enough for the rest of the AT. Dogs should not be allowed on the AT, period.


or perhaps in our drive for democracy :D

if it's good enough for the rest of the trail it's good enough for the GSMNP and BAXTER SP;)

the goat
01-31-2006, 17:34
or perhaps in our drive for democracy :D

if it's good enough for the rest of the trail it's good enough for the GSMNP and BAXTER SP;)

lol....that actually makes more sense! nicely put......

Ridge
01-31-2006, 20:16
or perhaps in our drive for democracy :D

if it's good enough for the rest of the trail it's good enough for the GSMNP and BAXTER SP;)

I still don't think the Rangers are going to accept this logic when traveling thru their jurisdiction. Maybe you can get them to see things your way. Yea, right.

bfitz
01-31-2006, 20:40
I was going on a three day hike with a group of people from my college (Blood Mt. area). One of the guys who came along was highly unprepared - he tried to hike in men's loafers instead of boots or sneakers and his backpack weighed about 60 pounds. He brought all 9 bottles of medications he was on - I am still not sure why he thought severe asthma and backpacking would be a good combination. To make the trip even more enjoyable, he complained without ceasing. The final straw for me was on the last night of our hike. He had brought an emergency blanket with him - one of those thin, shiny plastic things. It had been drizzling on and off, but we were all warm and dry and setting up in a shelter. He, apparently, was bored and wanted to try out his emergency blanket. He took it out and wrapped it around him. I started calling it the space blanket because it looked like the alien suits from bad 1950s horror films. As we all settled down to sleep, he would NOT stop messing with the thing. It made the most annoying (and loud) rustling sounds. It sounded like someone frantically waving a six-foot piece of alumimum foil over and over and over again. I'm afraid I said something really rude about if he didn't stop it I was going to shove that stupid blanket somewhere unmentionable. At any rate, I won't go on another trip with him. Ever.
I hate those things! The space blanket is for emergencies, not a light-weight alternative.... I hiked with one guy, he was trying to go light because he hurt his knee, but... his nightly crinkling drove me nuts for a few days, even from my tent I heard him in the shelter crinkling. When we hit town I insisted he buy a sleeping bag (I didn't want to break up the band...) for the sake of his girlfriend if not the rest of us (she had to sleep next to him...well didn't have to, but... At least our crinkler didn't complain about everything...

Ridge
01-31-2006, 21:01
http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2002-06-07-dog-usat.htm

"............ dogs generate disease-causing bacteria that can make people sick. Studies done in the last few years put dogs third or fourth on the list of contributors to bacteria in contaminated waters. "Dogs are one of our usual suspects," says Valerie Harwood, a microbiologist at the University of South Florida. "At certain sites, we find their effect to be significant."
It doesn't take a Ph.D. to figure out that dog do is nasty. But it took science to determine how nasty it is.
From mutt to blue-blooded champion, all dogs harbor so-called coliform bacteria, which live in the gut. The group includes E. coli, a bacterium that can cause disease, and fecal coliform bacteria, which spread through feces. Dogs also carry salmonella and giardia. Environmental officials use measurements of some of these bacteria as barometers of how much fecal matter has contaminated a body of water........"

Sly
01-31-2006, 21:11
............ dogs generate disease-causing bacteria that can make people sick. Studies done in the last few years put dogs third or fourth on the list of contributors to bacteria in contaminated waters.

Interesting. I wonder who's in 1st, 2nd or 3rd? I also wonder how much contamination they actually cause to mountains springs and streams.

StarLyte
01-31-2006, 21:11
Geezus Jack you covered everything. :jump

Marsha

Ridge
01-31-2006, 21:26
Interesting. I wonder who's in 1st, 2nd or 3rd? I also wonder how much contamination they actually cause to mountains springs and streams.


Very few dogs are leashed. Very few hikers bury their dogs waste. Very few hikers pack the nasty stuff out. Most leave it, some scoop it up and toss it wherever.

"Chattahoochee River National Recreation Area near Atlanta. Bacteria levels in the river exceed standards so often that a Web site tells would-be boaters and swimmers whether the river is safe on any given day. To help clean it up, park officials recently started giving tickets to visitors who have dogs but no doggie bags."

"A survey by the Center for Watershed Protection in 1999 found that of the 41% of respondents who rarely or never clean up after their dogs, 44% would refuse to do so in the face of fines and neighbors' complaints. Reasons included, "because it eventually goes away," "small dog, small waste," and "just because."

generoll
01-31-2006, 23:37
for what it's worth, PEOPLE harbor E.Coli. It happens to be the natural flora of the large intestine and is a part of your digestive system. Next time you're on the trail look at the hikers you meet and see how many actually carry any sort of a digging instrument. Do you really believe that all those hikers are burying their waste when there's no privy? Ever noticed the t.p. flowers scattered around a shelter that doesn't have a privy?

KirkMcquest
01-31-2006, 23:40
Interesting. I wonder who's in 1st, 2nd or 3rd?

People are

KirkMcquest
01-31-2006, 23:43
Very few dogs are leashed. Very few hikers bury their dogs waste. Very few hikers pack the nasty stuff out. Most leave it, some scoop it up and toss it wherever.

"Chattahoochee River National Recreation Area near Atlanta. Bacteria levels in the river exceed standards so often that a Web site tells would-be boaters and swimmers whether the river is safe on any given day. To help clean it up, park officials recently started giving tickets to visitors who have dogs but no doggie bags."

"A survey by the Center for Watershed Protection in 1999 found that of the 41% of respondents who rarely or never clean up after their dogs, 44% would refuse to do so in the face of fines and neighbors' complaints. Reasons included, "because it eventually goes away," "small dog, small waste," and "just because."

The amazing thing is that you drive a car, use paper, purchase chemical products, and over-consume just about everything, and DOGS are the problem.

aaronthebugbuffet
02-01-2006, 00:39
i liked the posts about specific people on the trail. all this back and forth on dogs and cigarettes is lame.

corentin
02-01-2006, 00:45
what? you don't find it entertaining to watch a bunch of people beat a dead horse and call each other names?:)

Just Jeff
02-01-2006, 00:46
all this back and forth on dogs and cigarettes is lame.

AARON FOR PRESIDENT!!

Nokia
02-01-2006, 02:00
Ridge- I get your point but, do you think smokers are going to carry out their butts? Yes, I suppose there will be a few that will.

Here's the options as I see them

1) Throw them in a fire---it's been pointed out that they only melt into a ball of molten plastic
2) Throw them out into the woods or on the trail. I don't like seeing them laying around anymore than anybody else.
3) Burying them in the ground. I haven't seen any studies but my guess is once they go in the ground, and I meant a couple of inches, not just below the surface, they will probably stay there unseen forever. I can't see how one would work it's way up. Even after considering frost/thaw cycles I don't see how. But I could be wrong. Educate me.
4)Carrying them out. Yes, you would hope that they would. But to be realistic, I don't think so.

I always carry out my butts and 99% of all the thrus I have hiked with do too. There is always the 1%, but hey atleast 1% of people in any group are ********.

Ridge
02-01-2006, 09:16
The amazing thing is that you drive a car, use paper, purchase chemical products, and over-consume just about everything, and DOGS are the problem.

And you don't? And yes dog's are added polution to the trail that others shouldn't have to endure!

Critterman
02-01-2006, 10:39
[quote=minnesotasmith]I've owned three dogs that were partly or mostly Husky, and liked them a lot. BTW, for anyone who does not know this, Huskies are less likely to bite people than many other breeds are.

Some insurance companies will not provide home owners insurance to people with Huskies without a vet statment that the dog does not bite and is not aggressive. Huskies are one of several breeds that insurance companies pay more bite claims on. I have run into this several times here in virginia.

KirkMcquest
02-01-2006, 11:00
And you don't? And yes dog's are added polution to the trail that others shouldn't have to endure!

If you hate dogs, it might certainly seem like an unnecessary niusance to have dogs on the trail. Yes, there is some added environmental impact when bringing a dog. There can be no question, however, that humans far exceed dogs in creating pollution and carrying disease.

Dogs are wild animals that have been domesticated. When left alone in the wild, dogs quickly revert back to there wild ways. Canines once roamed wild through much of the land that is now the A>T. They have been pretty well exterminated by humans in the area.

It is natural for dogs to roam through the appalachians, the environment can handle it ( it was made for it). The strain comes from massive human impact. If your concerned about the environment, bring Fido along, leave your human friend home.

carolinahiker
02-01-2006, 11:24
Horses on the trail a few years ago we stopped near clingmans dome my son and myself and settled in i guess they came in from fontana lake trails but we thought the U.S. Calvary had moved, i know how the poor indians felt i think ha-ha when we said horses are allowed on the AT they just laughed and continued makin noise cookin etc. My son wanted to start a stampede but i didnt want to get lynched for horse stampeding lol.

Carolina hiker section hiker

carolinahiker
02-01-2006, 11:26
Pardon all the typos on that, horses arnt allowe on the AT.

corentin
02-01-2006, 12:56
I am a total newbie to hiking and this forum and possibly I am oversimplifying but it seems to come down to some pretty basic issues.
It is legal to take dogs on most of the trail, that being said , it is absolutely not cool to impose yourself or your animal on other people. LNT and all that. Feces are dirty whether they are human, dog, or otherwise. Personally, as a nurse, I've stepped in human stuff, and I will take dog stuff anyday over that.
Having your dog or yourself not under control, is not cool. Most dogs (including my own overspoiled mutt dog ) are not well enough trained to be off leash. Every dog will bite given the right circumstances. I have owned some very sweet, smart, gentle dogs but I know they will bite if given the right provocation. As an owner it is my legal and moral duty to prevent that , which is why I keep them leashed in public places. It is also my legal duty to clean up after myself and my animal.
I have been bitten by a dog and I have to say I am still more worried about humans. Dogs at least act predictably to their animal instincts. I have yet to meet a clinically insane dog. Plus, human bites are by far the nastiest germ wise:)
If someone wants to take their dog, and clean up after it, keep it under control, basically keep it from harrassing other people in any way, it 's legal. More power to them. People who can't behave in a socially acceptable way , won't make their dogs behave either. It's bad , inconsiderate owners that are the problem , not the dogs themselves. In that case , neither should be on the trail in IMHO.

MOWGLI
02-01-2006, 13:17
Pardon all the typos on that, horses arnt allowe on the AT.

Well, they actually are permiited on sections of the AT in Great Smoky Mountains NP. That's the only place on the length of the trail that they are allowed. It's in the management plan for the park.

Moxie00
02-01-2006, 14:46
Well, they actually are permiited on sections of the AT in Great Smoky Mountains NP. That's the only place on the length of the trail that they are allowed. It's in the management plan for the park.
There are actually two other places I know about where horses are on the AT, three if you count the ponys in Grayson Highlands. There is an authorized horse trail that shares the campsite with the AT in Crawfish Valley, Va. The other place I saw a horse trail share the AT was between the site of Yellow Springs Village and Rausch Gap shelter. What amazes me in the National Park is that horses poop on the trail, in streams, and near water sources but hikers have to bury their poop.

neo
02-01-2006, 15:03
hikers that do their dish's in the water sourceor brush thier teeth in the water source,that piss's me off to no end:cool: neo

generoll
02-01-2006, 15:28
for true joy, try hiking the Grand Canyon sometime. Mules have the right of way and they all seem to empty their bladders in the same location. nothing quite like wading through desert mud made of mule urine.

clayrfarris
02-01-2006, 18:39
Can I play too?
Seems to me this is a master / servant relationship. The master (dog owner) is responsible for the actions of the servant (dog). Actions of the servant are considered to be actions of the master. So it is assumed that it is absolutley positively totally socially unacceptable for me to walk up and pee on someone's tent. I would expect repercutions if I were stupid enough to do that. I can say with certainty that if your servant pees on my tent or pack or bag, I will at the very least be finding that master's property right after I finish my quart of lemonade. If servant bites me I bite the master. Seems to me to be the best possible training program. If I am scoffed at for such vile and aggressive behavior I ask why is it acceptable for the dog to do it and not incur the consequences? I like dogs, at least the kind that are seen and not heard or smelled. We know dogs can be well behaved, safe, and non-aggressive. I know working dogs such as seeing eye dogs, search and rescue dogs, law enforcement dogs can function in society without any improper behavior. It seems to me that unless your dog can meet these same standards, it should not be placed in a public environment. If I were to go to a dog park or the home of a dog owner, I would understand that I have accepted the consequences and responsibilities of doing so. Meaning if I step in poop, or get bitten I have no right to whine. If the dog and owner are in any other public environment then they must adhere to the standards and accept the consequences of doing so. Thanks for letting me share.

RITBlake
02-01-2006, 20:48
Pardon all the typos on that, horses arnt allowe on the AT.


uhh, wrong

minnesotasmith
02-02-2006, 06:49
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.jkLXJ8MQKtH/b.795277/k.B993/Permits_Fees_and_Regulations.htm

Can people ride or drive the Trail?

Generally, no. The Appalachian Trail is designed, built, and maintained by hikers for foot travel. Motor vehicles are illegal on all off-road sections of the Appalachian Trail. Bicycles and mountain bikes are not permitted except where the A.T. coincides for about three miles with the C&O Canal towpath in Maryland, the Virginia Creeper Trail in Virginia, in certain Pennsylvania state gamelands, and roads in town. Horses, llamas, and other pack animals are not allowed on the A.T., except along the C&O Canal towpath in Maryland and on about 50 percent of the A.T. in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park (where, by law, the route is open for horses as a historical use).
==========================================

So, it sounds to me as if the ATC considers horses (with their hooves cutting up the Trail surface, big horse turds, etc.) to possibly be less bothersome than are dogs, yet the ATC puts up with horses on the AT only on the stretches where they are forced to by laws grandfathering in casual horse use. Interesting. BTW, if I understand the length of the sections correctly, that is under 100 miles of the AT that they are forced to currently accept some horse use on.

minnesotasmith
02-02-2006, 07:19
(Same page, bolding mine.)

"Dogs must be leashed on the forty percent of the Trail that uses National Park Service-administered lands. (Actually, we recommend that you keep your dog leashed at all times.)"

2167/40 = 867 miles of the Trail. Dogs are legally allowed only if leashed there, plus Baxter and GSMNP ban them altogether. How many Park areas have past thruhikers seen unleashed dogs? I see a phenomenon apparent; dogowners refuse to leash their dogs ("But it's sooo complex and sooo hard to remember to do!!!!!!" I can hear them rationalize already), so only banning dogs works for controlling dog issues in Trail operation. The trend is obvious, and is caused by thousands of dog owners having the mentality of "I'm special, with far more right to be on and use the Trail than anyone else". Well, you're not, and if you'd been courteous when on the Trail, you could have kept this privilege, but the way things are going, I predict that 50 years from now, there's NWIH anyone not blind or whatnot will dare bring a dog on the AT.

firefly
02-02-2006, 08:01
What annoys me most is people who assume I do not know what I am doing probably because I am female. I have backpacked for over 32 years and guided trips for over 20. I teach backpacking clinics. But there are always people who come up to me when I am setting up camp and tell me I am doing something wrong. Another thing that annoys me is people who interupt a conversation you are having with someone else about the gear that works for you and states that gear does not work and is a bad choice. It does not matter that you are actually using this gear at the time..that it obviously works fine and that you were not talking to them..its not their way of doing things so it must be wrong. I would love to say the worst offenders are the rookie Walmart cowboys out there but that is not the case. Usually its the ultralight hikers with the really cutting edge gear. You would think these people would be the biggest cheerleaders for talking about and playing with different gear but some of them are insufferable. They finally got their holy grail of gear and thats it and everybody needs to just get over it and recognize their brilliance. Maybe this is what happens to good people who read all the books..troll all the sites..and spends endless hours tweaking their gear...UT OH

Ridge
02-03-2006, 22:41
Annoying, rude and arrogant: Rocks defaced to a point of nonrecognition, step threads torn apart, and the trail turned to mush by the carbide tips on the high dollar poles. Those with the steel tips consider the noise from the scratching of rocks as music to hike by. They will no more be convinced to change than those who carry their dogs on the trail, for which a lot of hikers see as a trail nuisance.

Alligator
02-03-2006, 23:09
---Yawn---

Alligator
02-03-2006, 23:20
Hikers on WB with 25 consecutive posts referencing dogs.

Big Dawg
02-04-2006, 08:57
Hikers on WB with 25 consecutive posts referencing dogs.
... or the carbide tip debacle.


Yea, no kidding.

skeeterfeeder
02-04-2006, 10:52
Thanks Jack, for the great list. It brought tears to my eyes as I laughed, recognizing so many of the situations, and also realizing I was guilty of some of the infractions myself.
You brightened my morning!

Tich
05-21-2009, 14:21
Ridge- I get your point but, do you think smokers are going to carry out their butts? Yes, I suppose there will be a few that will.

Here's the options as I see them

1) Throw them in a fire---it's been pointed out that they only melt into a ball of molten plastic
2) Throw them out into the woods or on the trail. I don't like seeing them laying around anymore than anybody else.
3) Burying them in the ground. I haven't seen any studies but my guess is once they go in the ground, and I meant a couple of inches, not just below the surface, they will probably stay there unseen forever. I can't see how one would work it's way up. Even after considering frost/thaw cycles I don't see how. But I could be wrong. Educate me.
4)Carrying them out. Yes, you would hope that they would. But to be realistic, I don't think so.

First time here so apologies if this seems rather presumptuous but how on earth can someone/anyone who makes the effort to reach and then hike these particular environments, i.e. beautiful, sometimes remote and ALWAYS fragile, consider it unrealistic (???) for others to make the very small effort to carry out something so insubstantial in weight and yet SO SO DETRIMENTAL in consequence to that very environment? Boggles the mind...
I guess you could say that littering is one of my biggest bones of contention and something that only seems to get worse each year. Yeah, both the littering and my 'ornery-ness' to it. :)

Other than that, smoke away!

mindi
05-24-2009, 16:42
re: Cigarette butts. I carried a square of aluminum foil with me for my butts, inside a ziploc. Stick the butts in the foil and crimp the edges, then put the whole mess in the ziploc. When I got to town I just threw the whole mess away. An old Lipton Sides package works well too, just fold it over and stick it in a ziploc also.

mweinstone
05-24-2009, 16:47
their are no annoying hikers.

mweinstone
05-24-2009, 16:50
hikers should eat your children. i want hikers in gaurd towers at every corner controlling all. hikers and god should ride together. hikers need non hikers for fleash in case of bearbite. non hikers are annoying.

TOW
05-24-2009, 17:04
Like sands thru the hour glass............

mindi
05-24-2009, 17:04
I rarely ran into any hikers who annoyed me, I liked them all for the most part. I can only think of a very few instances and none of them were a big deal.

I never had any problem with a hiker's dog, either.

The only time I ever felt threatened by dogs was on a section of trail that came out onto a road with a small house. Several dogs came running from the house snarling and growling...soon enough the owner came out of the house, shotgun in hand, and called them off. I don't know who scared me more..the owner or the dogs. He was not friendly or apologetic in the least and stood there with his gun until I was out of sight. He seemed pissed that I had gotten his dogs riled up.

Chaco Taco
05-26-2009, 18:58
Baltimore F***in Jack:D:D:D:D
Im sure someone else has said that;) Love ya Jack

Lemni Skate
05-26-2009, 19:42
I've only ever been slightly annoyed by hikers (one guy poked me about five times in a shelter because I was snoring so I stepped on him the next morning as I was leaving (in the opposite direction from him)). One thing for sure, they don't annoy me nearly as much as people in the "real" world.

Homer&Marje
05-26-2009, 20:08
Wow....where to begin?

In no particular order, here are a few things that would drive me nuts if I let 'em:

*Horrible trail musicians who assume everyone wants to hear them play
or sing at the end of the day
*Moochers, esp. smokers who refuse to purchase their own
*Folks who were too lazy or stupid to train their dogs properly before
the trip
*Innapropriate use of cell phones while in the woods
*People who ask overly personal questions when they've just met you,
esp. regarding one's religion, politics, income/profession, etc.
*Newbies that think they know it all after 20 miles
*Veterans that think THEY know it all after several thousand.
*Shelter hogs, the ones who spread all their stuff over three spaces and
act like they're doing you a HUGE favor when they move it
*Lightweight hikers who think they're entitled to a guaranteed spot in a
shelter because they don't have a tent or tarp
*Extreme gearheads who talk about equipment ad nauseum
*Whiners, particularly those who insist on providing daily updates on their
physical and medical afflictions
*People who are positive that you're interested in their bodily functions
*Couples that bicker in front of other hikers
*Couples that are too affectionate in front of other hikers
*New York Yankee fans
*People, usally younger males, that write filthy, nasty stuff in Trail registers
*People that trash talk other hikers in registers thinking it won't get back to
the people they're maligning
*People that bitch about Trail conditions and maintenance tho they've never
done any themselves
*Old timey hikers who constantly talk about how much better the Trail used
to be, and how much harder it was
*Hikers who assume that nobody cares if they're naked without realizing
how horrible they actually look when naked.
*Hikers who mooch water off you because they were too stupid or too
into the "lightweight" thing to carry enough of their own
*People who hog telephones in tiny little trail towns where there's only one
or two phones in the whole village.
*People who think that the fact that they are keeping an Internet journal
somehow entitles them to unlimited time on hostel and library computers
*People who borrow stuff and don't return it or pay you back
*People who borrow stuff and don't return it clean or in good condition
*People who borrow stuff
*People who don't tip in Trailtown restaurants
*People who are greedy about Trail Magic and take more than their share
*Hikers who get the "Trail God" mentality, and think that since they are hiking
for six months, everyone should treat them with awe, never mind give them
all sorts of stuff for free
*People who bitch about paying an overnight fee in extremely highly used
sites in Vermont......and then are buying six dollar beers in a pub two days
later
*People who are know-it-alls or are rude to the staff in Trail Outfitters,
especially when they've been on the trail all of three weeks
*Trail gossips and busybodies
*People who are obsessed with what other people are doing, and bitch about
them in registers, especially as regards whether they've slackpacked,
missed a section, etc.
*People who try to impress you with how fast they covered a section, or
how many miles they achieved that day
*People who talk about how easy a section was when it just beat the s***
out of you
*People with cute trail partners and are overly smug about it
*Cranky, grumpy, older hikers who should have hiked years earlier
*Spoiled, whiny, youger ones who need to wait a few years before hiking
*Phony intellectuals, who try to impress others with their erudition, choice of
reading matter, etc. Clue to someone being a jerk: If their trail name is
that of a Great Western Philosopher, especially from classical Greece, they
are usually insufferable.
*People that won't clean themselves up, even in a hostel or town
*People who wanna share your motel room but don't wanna pay their full
share
*People who never buy a round, but will happily let you pay for theirs
*Motel roomates who are NASCAR fans
*People who cheat hostel owners
*People who make messes in hostels and assume the proprietor will clean it
up; likewise people who won't help with household chores, even when it's
expected
*People who won't chip in on gas for a shuttle, even when they see others
doing so
*People who, when they find you pitched on a beautiful camping spot,
instantly assume that you want them to join you there and that you
welcome their company
*People hiking in the opposite direction of you, who are NEVER capable of
providing accurate info on such things as water availablity, campsites,
distance, etc., even tho they've just covered the section you're asking
them about
*People you meet as you start up a monster climb, who have just come down
it, and insist on gleefully telling you what a horrible uphill awaits you
*Likewise, hikers who go tear-assing up a really steep hill at three and a half
miles an hour, while you're sitting on a rock hawking up lung gobbets and
dying of exhaustion
*Hacky sackers. Don't ask me why, they just annoy me
*Early, early risers in shelters. Or people who come in at eleven o'clock
*Trail dogs that snap at people
*Trail dogs that get all over your stuff when they're sopping wet or filthy
*Trail dogs that knock you down on the Trail or jump on you
*Trail dogs that bark
*Trail dogs that chase wildlife
*Trail dogs that crap in campsites
*Trail dogs that are pest bastards in hostels
*Trail dogs
*Southbounders who cop attitudes, even when at the time you meet them,
they've done 400 miles, and you're past 1700
*Southbounders who insist on expounding why their trip is tougher, better,
etc.
*Southbounders in general

Hmmm, all for now.

One last pet peeve: People who complain too much or have too many pet peeves.

Kinda like the guy who wrote the above!!


I don't care what the rest of the thread said. I got to this and......yep.

Jim Adams
05-26-2009, 20:33
Your pack is too heavy!Your pack is too heavy!Your pack is too heavy!Your pack is too heavy!Your pack is too heavy!
You need a hammock!You need a hammock!You need a hammock!You need a hammock!You need a hammock!
:)
geek

Mrs Baggins
05-26-2009, 20:44
Hikers with pictures of their grandchildren. I...don't...care!! I barely tolerated my own kids when they were little. I don't give a flying damn about yours or your grandchildren. Period. Ever.

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-26-2009, 20:53
Hikers who tell you what you should do
IE. You know you shouldn't wear a Tshirt you should buy a polyester shirt....
You shouldn't wear runners you need more ankle supports.............

saimyoji
05-26-2009, 20:57
Hikers with pictures of their grandchildren. I...don't...care!! I barely tolerated my own kids when they were little. I don't give a flying damn about yours or your grandchildren. Period. Ever.


You are indeed a small person.

DAJA
05-26-2009, 21:00
Hikers with pictures of their grandchildren. I...don't...care!! I barely tolerated my own kids when they were little. I don't give a flying damn about yours or your grandchildren. Period. Ever.

What an odd thing to say... Truely selfish in every way...

warraghiyagey
05-26-2009, 21:01
You are indeed a small person.

Ummm. . . Saimyoji, that's uncool. . . . . the term is 'little people.'

warraghiyagey
05-26-2009, 21:01
Or, 'little person.'

saimyoji
05-26-2009, 21:03
Ummm. . . Saimyoji, that's uncool. . . . . the term is 'little people.'


Or, 'little person.'


nah, what i said was: "you are a cold hearted bitch. who the hell hates kids, let alone their OWN kids?"

saimyoji
05-26-2009, 21:05
nah, what i said was: "you are a cold hearted bitch. who the hell hates kids, let alone their OWN kids?"


that kind of "small" person.....


...we won't talk about the kind of "small" person that Monkeyboy is. :D