View Full Version : Interested article about LL Bean
saltysack
02-10-2017, 13:35
L.L. Bean's lenient return policy on chopping block
http://www.fox25boston.com/news/ll-beans-lenient-return-policy-on-chopping-block/492843813
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They sell quality stuff...they don't need a loose return policy.
NPR's "This American Life" had a really good piece on this about two months ago or so...
here's a link to it
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/591/get-your-moneys-worth
bamboo bob
02-10-2017, 16:17
They are just trying to stop the free loaders. People who buy something at a yard sale for 50 cents and then return it to bean for a credit.
They are just trying to stop the free loaders. People who buy something at a yard sale for 50 cents and then return it to bean for a credit.
That tale has been circulating since forever. I save all of my receipts and hang tags.
Wayne
Time Zone
02-10-2017, 17:57
REI had to cut back not long ago. Bean may not be far behind.
I don't blame them.
I have a 20F long mummy bag for sale here and on HF and CL. I bought it because their site said that if you were over 6', a regular was not suitable for you. Well, at one inch over, I ended up with a bag that wasn't as warm as it could be if I had been able to fill it out more. Not long after, I snapped up one of their 0F mummies in a regular ... and I fit fine in it. I've come to learn that a snug bag is a warmer bag.
Now, I could return it to Bean. It's been many years, but not much use, and I did rely on their guidance in picking it out. But I won't do it, because I should have realized my error earlier. It's one thing to buy with confidence and be able to return stuff in a timely manner that isn't to your liking. It's another to treat REI as (free) "Rental Equipment, Incorporated" or Bean as "Borrowed Equipment - allowed, naturally!" [OK, that's the best I could come up with].
It would be interesting to know how much their bottom line is being hurt by a liberal return policy. They ship for free, but often have prices that are slightly higher. They return for free if it's the fault of themselves or their product. For instance I bought a poncho tarp recently from them that was smaller than advertised. Not smaller after I laid it out, but even the dimensions on the S2S packaging didn't match the dimensions on the LLB web page for it. 8% smaller - significant, IMO, when you barely have adequate coverage as it is. So it will probably go back. So they have to eat the shipping for that one - as they should, IMO. Anyway, I do wonder how much they are hurt by abuse of the return policy vs. whether they adequately charge for shipping. Even return shipping, when it's on your dime, only reduces your refund by about $6.95. I don't think I could ship much of anything back to Bean on my own for that price. Seems like anything of any moderate size at the post office is $10-12, and in my experience UPS and others are even more, at least until you get to really big stuff.
Anyway, if they go the way of REI with their returns, I'll be fine with it. A year is plenty enough time to decide if a product is right for you.
ScareBear
02-10-2017, 18:03
LL Bean has "slightly" higher prices? Is that the same as being "slightly" pregnant?
Time Zone
02-10-2017, 18:21
For the exact same item, yeah, often it's $10 more. Covers shipping. As for similar items, well, that's subjective.
Perhaps the cost of their guarantee factors in their too.
fiddlehead
02-10-2017, 18:37
When I see a company advertising "Lifetime Guarantee" (as LL Bean once did), I think they're crazy. (I think they have re-worded it since, but that's what they said in my younger days)
Sort of like the tattoo craze: Some people don't realize how long a life can be.
I bought some fleece pants with pockets from LL bean in the early 80's.
I took them back in the late 90's because both zippers on the pockets broke.
They gave me a funny look , because they were 15 years old. (but did give me a new pair)
HEY! 15 years is very far from a lifetime.
Don't give a lifetime guarantee if you don't mean it. (like I said, I think they've reworded it, but some people buy because of some marketing slogans, like: Lifetime Gurantee!) (I think it was LL himself who came up with that!)
imscotty
02-10-2017, 18:44
They are just trying to stop the free loaders. People who buy something at a yard sale for 50 cents and then return it to bean for a credit.
This is a real problem LL Bean requests that owners put a black 'X' through the tag before donating used items to charity. Apparently people have been doing just what you describe
Maineiac64
02-10-2017, 22:53
This is a real problem LL Bean requests that owners put a black 'X' through the tag before donating used items to charity. Apparently people have been doing just what you describe
The items sold in the employee store have a red x.
bamboo bob
02-10-2017, 23:30
That tale has been circulating since forever. I save all of my receipts and hang tags.
Wayne
The "tale" as you call it, keeps circulating for the simple fact that it's true. Additionally my brother returned a pair of the famous duck boots because they split after thirty years. Actually they repaired them so maybe that doesn't count. Great outfit . They are not inexpensive for sure, knowledgeable staff too.
orthofingers
02-11-2017, 10:08
In my opinion there are two types of lifetime guarantees. The first type is on an item that is of such high quality that it will literally last for a lifetime. The price usually reflects the high quality. Call this one the Snap On lifetime guarantee.
At the opposite end of the "lifetime guarantee" spectrum is a company that can afford to replace the item until the consumer gets tired of exchanging it because, it was so cheaply made to begin with. Call this one the Harbor Freight lifetime guarantee.
One isn't necessarily better than the other depending on the consumer's needs. A professional mechanic who makes his living with his tools couldn't "afford" the downtime of the Harbor Freight tool failing whereas, for the homeowner doing a one time job requiring a specific tool offered by Harbor Freight, it might offer the best value.
When I see a company advertising "Lifetime Guarantee" (as LL Bean once did), I think they're crazy. (I think they have re-worded it since, but that's what they said in my younger days)
Sort of like the tattoo craze: Some people don't realize how long a life can be.
I bought some fleece pants with pockets from LL bean in the early 80's.
I took them back in the late 90's because both zippers on the pockets broke.
They gave me a funny look , because they were 15 years old. (but did give me a new pair)
HEY! 15 years is very far from a lifetime.
Don't give a lifetime guarantee if you don't mean it. (like I said, I think they've reworded it, but some people buy because of some marketing slogans, like: Lifetime Gurantee!) (I think it was LL himself who came up with that!)There are quite a few on this forum that would criticize you and say you took advantage of the policy, but the reality is that what you got is exactly what they promised. And they made that promise in order to increase their sales hoping that most people wouldn't call them on their promise. They can't have it both ways, and it seems now they are choosing to be less generous with their policies.
Time Zone
02-11-2017, 10:50
The "tale" as you call it, keeps circulating for the simple fact that it's true. Additionally my brother returned a pair of the famous duck boots because they split after thirty years. Actually they repaired them so maybe that doesn't count. Great outfit . They are not inexpensive for sure, knowledgeable staff too.
If you're talking about the iconic LL Bean (hunting) boot, they have a refurbishing service (replacing the entire rubber base beneath the leather upper) for which they levy a standard fee. I'm not sure if they would still charge if you returned them claiming you weren't satisfied. Their guarantee is a satisfaction guarantee, not an "it won't wear out" lifetime guarantee, though it appears from those stories done in the last year, that if you just say you aren't satisfied, those words may get you far. If your brother's boots split before wearing out the tread, I can see calling them on that, though after 30 years, maybe not, because aging alone can cause certain materials to get brittle or weak.
W/r/t manufacturers' lifetime guarantees, some are just garbage ... it's for the lifetime of the product, which the manufacturer could in theory define as short a period of time as they wish.
Offshore
02-11-2017, 11:28
I think LL Bean will be fine - Costco and REI did the same thing and they managed to survive. I'd guess that the people that are serial returners were not the type of customer any retailer wanted anyway. In the case of Bean, its been a well-know scam to buy anything with an LL Bean label at thrift stores or garage sales, return it for credit (gift card), and sell the gift card on an exchange. It may actually be fraud if the guarantee extends only to the original purchaser or gift recipient.
As people here said, the retailers put in these lifetime guarantee policies as marketing tools - but probably never realized how ridiculous, and yes - sleazy - some customers would be. I remember being in Costco the weekend after Labor Day and seeing patio furniture and grills being unloaded from Lexus and Mercedes SUVs to be returned, Christmas decorations coming back in January, and even books and DVDs. Same thing with REI - how many times have you gone to a garage sale and seen heavily used past season merchandise sitting there? Its one thing to get a lifetime warranty on a Craftsman or Snap-On tool, but to treat these policies as a loan program or to expect any item of clothing or gear to last forever is just ridiculous. Darn Tough socks are another example. Hikers here and on other sites brag how they use their $20 pair of socks every day for months with rare laundering and when a hole develops, they go rushing to send them back for a new pair. Yes, technically they have the right to do so since it is the manufacturer's policy, but someone that does that really needs to reevaluate the reasonableness of their expectations and their personal ethics.
Perhaps they need to redefine lifetime as what would be expected to be a standard lifespan for the product in question, not the lifetime of the owner?
peakbagger
02-11-2017, 22:24
This debate has been going on for years. It varies with the profits. Beans was in pretty rough shape in the last years that the original Leon L Gorman (LL) was running the business. Its a closely held family business but since LL passed in 1967, the family owners have multiplied and the expectations of maintaining their lifestyle has increased also. They normally stay low key but LL's granddaughter was recently in the news. As the number of heirs multiply they keep trying to increase the profits to keep all the heirs happy. They do have the reputation of keeping their employees happy and the employee discount and access to the return room helps to keep them happy. The company hires a lot of seasonal folks every year and the company hands out profit sharing checks as means of keeping folks working hard over the holidays.
The joke is LL Beans make few if any products themselves. Pretty much their "bean boots" and at one point some canvas products. Most of the gear is derivative from high end brands although on occasion they introduce new technology like Downtek. The grandson of the founder, Leon Gorman who was responsible in substantially expanding the company wrote a book about Beans that was hyped when it came out but was a pretty boring tome on building the business. At one point he was the richest person in Maine as the company went retail (previously they were strictly mail order with a factory store and that was it). When I moved to NH, they dipped their toe into retail and set up a store in North Conway it was mostly returns and mostly high end gear. Once it went there from Freeport it never left. I got many a great deal on high end equipment over the years until the went national with retail.
The company does buy large blocks of gear from suppliers and the competition to get in the catalog and the store is high. Vendors apparently can take years to get in the catalog and Beans has their employees test the gear extensively. At least one higher end employee told me once that one of the things Beans does is charge back any return of equipment to the vendor no matter how old it is. The vendors don't kick as they may lose favor with Beans. Nevertheless the return policy has been subject of discussion for years. I think its mentioned in the book.
In the last few years I have has two products wear out somewhat earlier then I expected. I expect I could return them but realistically I got a reasonable life out of them. Apparently various thrift shops are aware of the demand for old LL Beans products. Contrary to popular belief Goodwill only puts near new stuff on the racks, the majority is sorted and then compacted into bundles and shipped to the third world where its sold per pound. Apparently they realize a market for old LL Beans gear so they put it all on the rack. Planet Aid is a scam http://gawker.com/planet-aids-yellow-clothing-donation-bids-are-part-of-a-1778611205 I wouldn't be surprised if they have found a way to monetize the Beans products they receive.
Time Zone
02-11-2017, 22:50
Darn Tough socks are another example. Hikers here and on other sites brag how they use their $20 pair of socks every day for months with rare laundering and when a hole develops, they go rushing to send them back for a new pair. Yes, technically they have the right to do so since it is the manufacturer's policy, but someone that does that really needs to reevaluate the reasonableness of their expectations and their personal ethics.
While I've not (yet) taken advantage of Darn Tough's policy, they practically encourage this behavior. They dare you to wear them out. Quoting:
"UNCONDITIONAL LIFETIME GUARANTEE: If you can wear these socks out, we'll replace them. Free of charge. No questions asked. For life." [emphasis theirs]
IMO that's a bolder guarantee than Bean's, which reads:
"Our guarantee is a handshake – a promise that we’ll be fair to each other. So if something’s not working or fitting or standing up to its task or lasting as long as you think it should, we’ll take it back. We want to make sure we keep our guarantee the way it’s always been for over a century.
Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at any time if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from L.L.Bean that is not completely satisfactory."
Both may be lifetime guarantees in a way, but Bean's emphasizes the expectation of fairness on both sides (you must be thinking, "how quaint", right, Offshore?) while Darn Tough basically lays down the gauntlet.
peakbagger
02-11-2017, 23:18
Darn Tuff is now being run by the son of the owner and I think he is tightening things up. When I went to the factory sale this year, their "seconds" were all marked that the life time guarantee didn't apply. The seconds sell for less than half the price of the firsts so I expect that since they sell Darn Tuffs direct they build in some margin on the firsts to cover returns.A few years ago I met his dad at the factory sale and he was quite proud to say that every sock was guaranteed. He even claimed that if a dog chewed up a sock, bring it back. By the way I have worn out a few pairs of their military seconds over the years and my brother has also. They last a lot longer than Smart Wools but do eventually wear out under heavy use.
Hikers here and on other sites brag how they use their $20 pair of socks every day for months with rare laundering and when a hole develops, they go rushing to send them back for a new pair. Yes, technically they have the right to do so since it is the manufacturer's policy, but someone that does that really needs to reevaluate the reasonableness of their expectations and their personal ethics.Whose ethics? If Darn Tough socks doesn't want to replace them then they should have a policy that reflects that. If they are over promising and over representing their product, they are going to pay for it with lots of returned socks. Is it absolutely ridiculous to have such a warranty on a pair of socks? Probably. But if you offer that on your product you need to honor it, and there is nothing unethical about your customer calling you on it. To me it seems unethical for a company to offer a lifetime warranty (implying a high quality product) when they know darn well a pair of socks isn't going to last forever. Yet their guarantee is pretty clear when it says "
No strings. No conditions. For life."
From the Darn Tough Socks website:
In a nutshell, if you wear a hole in them, we will replace them free of charge, for life.
What does your warranty cover?
Basically anything and everything.
This debate has been going on for years. It varies with the profits. Beans was in pretty rough shape in the last years that the original Leon L Gorman (LL) was running the business. Its a closely held family business but since LL passed in 1967, the family owners have multiplied and the expectations of maintaining their lifestyle has increased also. They normally stay low key but LL's granddaughter was recently in the news. As the number of heirs multiply they keep trying to increase the profits to keep all the heirs happy. They do have the reputation of keeping their employees happy and the employee discount and access to the return room helps to keep them happy. The company hires a lot of seasonal folks every year and the company hands out profit sharing checks as means of keeping folks working hard over the holidays.
The joke is LL Beans make few if any products themselves. Pretty much their "bean boots" and at one point some canvas products. Most of the gear is derivative from high end brands although on occasion they introduce new technology like Downtek. The grandson of the founder, Leon Gorman who was responsible in substantially expanding the company wrote a book about Beans that was hyped when it came out but was a pretty boring tome on building the business. At one point he was the richest person in Maine as the company went retail (previously they were strictly mail order with a factory store and that was it). When I moved to NH, they dipped their toe into retail and set up a store in North Conway it was mostly returns and mostly high end gear. Once it went there from Freeport it never left. I got many a great deal on high end equipment over the years until the went national with retail.
The company does buy large blocks of gear from suppliers and the competition to get in the catalog and the store is high. Vendors apparently can take years to get in the catalog and Beans has their employees test the gear extensively. At least one higher end employee told me once that one of the things Beans does is charge back any return of equipment to the vendor no matter how old it is. The vendors don't kick as they may lose favor with Beans. Nevertheless the return policy has been subject of discussion for years. I think its mentioned in the book.
In the last few years I have has two products wear out somewhat earlier then I expected. I expect I could return them but realistically I got a reasonable life out of them. Apparently various thrift shops are aware of the demand for old LL Beans products. Contrary to popular belief Goodwill only puts near new stuff on the racks, the majority is sorted and then compacted into bundles and shipped to the third world where its sold per pound. Apparently they realize a market for old LL Beans gear so they put it all on the rack. Planet Aid is a scam http://gawker.com/planet-aids-yellow-clothing-donation-bids-are-part-of-a-1778611205 I wouldn't be surprised if they have found a way to monetize the Beans products they receive.
I thought it was a pretty good book. It may because I worked at Beans and knew some of the executives, but it was an interesting look at Leon Gorman from his point of view and his executives. One of the subjects the Leon mentioned was the conflict between employees that bled Bean green and those who wanted to wring every last cent of profit from the company. It looks like the profiteers won, probably at the urging of Linda Bean, who I once heard characterized "as a ****ing idiot".