In search of a sleeping bag

[eggymane]

So I bought a 20 degree bag-REI Radiant- a few months back. I didn't have time to order anything else and needed to pick it up that same day so that's why I currently have this bag.

Now, I need a bag that takes up about half that space with equal warmth. I'm looking at zpacks since their bags weigh about half what mine does. Does that constitute they pack up smaller as well?

Any other recommendations?

[egilbe]

Normally, yes. Down tends to pack smaller and is lighter than comparably rated synthetics.

[nsherry61]

It's just money.

Depending on the model of the Radiant (regular, long, long/wide) they pack down reasonably small. It's 600 fill power down with moderately light shell fabric. 900 fill power down will take up 30% less space for the same warmth (NOT 50%!) and cost 2x or more money. With a lighter shell fabric and less fabric overall by making a narrower bag and/or a quilt, it is likely you could get to 1/2 the size and the same warmth, but, just barely.

Before you jump onto the ZPacks 20 quilt bandwagon, I'd recommend reading this blog (http://www.halfwayanywhere.com/trails/pacific-crest-trail/pct-2016-survey-gear-guide/) about 2016 PCT gear. Apparently the ZPacks 20 quilt was the most popular and one of the most disliked pieces of gear used by 2016 PCT thru hikers. It makes me wonder if it might be a bit optimistic about it's temperature rating, and you might want to consider a warmer ZPacks quilt or some other alternative. Thus, you still may not truly get down to 1/2 your Radiant packed size.

[Time Zone]

According to the web page I'm looking at, the REI Radiant is a down bag. It's just 600 fill power down, not the 900 fill power of the zpacks bags. For a given temperature rating, a higher fill power down bag will a) weigh 1/2 or less, b) compress to half the size, c) cost 2-3 times as much, d) may be more susceptible to losing loft in high humidity conditions, such as out east and/or in a poorly-ventilated tent. From what I've read, treated down may buy you more time but does not eliminate the risk. [In the arid west, down loft collapse is not generally a concern and high fill power bags generally do great out there.]

So those looking to shave weight and/or bulk, yet use a down bag in the humid east, you'd do well to pay up to get high fill power down, but ensure your shelter system is well-ventilated, or you may find it does not deliver on its temp rating.

[AfterParty]

I am very pleased with my enlightened equipment revolution quilt. There's lots of options out there

[johnnybgood]

I am very pleased with my enlightened equipment revolution quilt. There's lots of options out there

Yep. Hammock Gear also has lightweight quilts around 1lb. Even better is their superb compressibility.

[Venchka]

I'm pleased with the performance of both of my Western Mountaineering.
You should know that all sleeping bags are not the same.
Internal dimensions vary and can mean the difference between good sleep or sleepless nights.
The jury is still out on treated down.
The fill power numbers advertised today are largely a myth. Read the testing procedures and decide for yourself if the down can actually perform as claimed.
Loft, not fill power, will keep you warm. Beware of bags that are sold without loft numbers.
EN numbers are not the same for everyone. Read the test procedures. Are you a warm or cold sleeper? Buy according to how you sleep. Be prepared to add clothing as needed if you encounter temperatures below your bags rating.
A clean bag is a warm bag. Some folks say that a bag should be cleaned after every 14 nights of use. I doubt that very many, if any, people do that.
Good luck!
Wayne



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scrabbler]

At least if you have an EN number bag you can relatively expect certain performance. A 20 degree Walmart bag vs 20 degree REI down bag vs a 20 degree EN certified bag will be very different I'd bet. Many bags rate of "survivability". I have a 20 degree EN bag thats rated to -11F "survival". Know what the rating means before buying.

[eggymane]

I'm in North Carolina, so humidity will come into play- that's something I had not taken into consideration.

Enlightened Equipment was another option I had considered, and still currently am. I went camping with a buddy a few weeks ago who had a EE quilt and loved it.

I always carry warm base layers for sleeping, so if the bag doesn't hold up to it's stated temp rating it won't be too big of a deal. There's been many winter nights in the mountains where I've had to fully unzip my 20 degree bag because I was just too warm.

About quilts- I was hiking with a guy who was using a quilt, and he didn't get any sleep one night because he was cold from it being drafty. So that would be my hesitation going to a full quilt style bag. What are some of your experiences using a quilt?

Currently I am having to carry my food bag on the outside of my pack because my sleeping bag takes up enough room it can not fit in. Hence the reason I am wanting a bag that takes up roughly half the space.

[egilbe]

Might be cheaper, or easier, buying a larger pack.

[nsherry61]

Might be cheaper, or easier, buying a larger pack.
Significantly so on both counts.

[Time Zone]

w/r/t drafty quilts, here's an imperfect analogy: I have (finally) come to learn that a loose-fitting bag is cooler than a more snug-fitting one. That's why I put up for sale (here) my 20F long down mummy, not because it's 600fp. I didn't really need the length, even though I'm 1" taller than the regular size range. I'm keeping my regular length 600fp one, though I'd be keen to compare it to a high fill power one under similar conditions.

Quilt advocates point to how similar it is to bedding - most people sleep with blankets and sheets on a mattress, so why not do the same when camping and save the weight of the backside of a sleeping bag? Perhaps one difference is that a camping sleeping pad is much more narrow than even a twin bed - you are much more likely to have cold air infiltrate if you toss and turn. Plus, it's a larger area to heat up, unless you really wrap yourself up ... in which case ... it seems you effectively have a slim sleeping bag.

[Hosh]

Making a recommendation is pretty worthless without knowing the OP's sleep habits. If you sleep like an Egyptian mummy in a morgue, then a highly tapered mummy bag will be the lightest, least volume and warmest option. If you toss and turn like a chicken rotisserie at Costco and have hot flashes like an over-weight 55 yo woman, then a quilt is a better solution.

I use a quilt, EE, since I flip and roll all night long. It also provides a wider range of temperature options from a strapped, tucked cocoon to a summer blanket. My wife sleeps like Queen Nefertiti in a coma, uses a BA tapered mummy bag with a 20" pad inserted in the back.

Zpacks makes great stuff, so people complaining may be because they're cold sleepers, don't know how to use a quilt, have minimal insulating layers or like to complain on the internet. Most cottage manufacturers won't pay the money for EN testing. If you're a cold sleeper drop 10*, if you're warm then add 10*. Expecting to sleep like you're in a Ritz Carlton every night on the PCT ain't happening regardless of what you carry.

[fastfoxengineering]

What kind of backpack do you use?

How do you pack your sleeping bag?

This is important because a sleeping quilt stuffed loosely in the bottom of a pack takes up little space. Many people do this utilizing a compactor or plastic bag for waterproofing. Works excellent.

Some people prefer a stuff sack or dry bag. This forms a brick and is harder to pack efficiently with respect to pack real estate.

You may just need to reevaluate how you pack your bag.

Many of us here get by with 30-40L bags for multi day trips. Just as a point of reference.

Upgrading to a zpacks quilt or similar will most likely be a great improvement over your REI bag in terms of quality, weight, and compactness.

However, I don't think its the very root if your problem.

A little more detail on your pack and how you pack it could lend to more advice.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[Time Zone]

fastfoxengineering brings up some good points - how big is your bag.

30-40L though seems rather small (well, the 30 end especially) for a multi-day trip unless we're talking some combo of a) being a very compact person, b) traveling in summer with c) abundant water sources and d) possibly a plan to use shelters, tarp, bivy, or cowboy camp. Then again I'm not a UL hiker.

I'd also call into question the conventional wisdom that a down bag or quilt without a stuff sack takes up less space than one with one. While I agree it fills out the nooks and crannies better, I'm not convinced it takes up less space, because the moment you are done pushing it to the bottom of your bag, it starts lofting. And while putting your other stuff on top of it will compress it down a bit, I am not convinced that it compresses it as well as a stuff sack or compression bag does. After covering your bag with a layer or two of your other stuff, you start to lose leverage (speaking colloquially) or something.

It's possible though that if you stuff the bag or quilt into a trash compactor bag, fill out the bottom of your pack, and quickly twist the remaining "collar" of the compactor bag into an "elephant's trunk" and wrap it under the bundle, you may prevent the bag from re-lofting since air may not get back in, at least before you pack your other stuff. That might work almost as well as using a regular stuff sack in terms of compacting the bag/quilt, and has the added bonus of efficiently filling out the bottom of your pack. (or you can just pack other soft stuff around the "brick" like sleep clothes, a "stop" down jacket, etc.

[eggymane]

Some great suggestions!

I'll start with how I sleep. I don't toss and turn during the night, I'll start off laying on my back and I'll wake up in the morning still on my back on the pad. So being confined in a tapered mummy bag would not be problematic.

My pack is a ULA Circuit, so the pack size isn't the issue, but my new shelter takes up more space than any of my previous shelters- so that's where my lack of space is stemming.

I put the sleeping bag in the stuff sack it came with in the bottom of the pack. Compression sacks just made it like a bag of rocks.

[cmoulder]

Your friend with the EE quilt can show you how the clips on the elastic bands can be moved closer together to reduce drafts. Air mats with 25" width address "Dangling Elbow Syndrome"

[Hikingjim]

WM and some other high quality bags tend to have more true temperature ratings, and the proof is also in the bag stats. A 20f WM bag with the same dimensions simply has more down fill than a 20f zpacks bag, and the 50 fill power difference is not enough to make that up.
All that means is I would go 10f lower than other on temp rating with the zpacks bag of your choice

WM bags and many others tend to have much heavier shells than zpacks or quilts like EE (eg: 6 oz for 20f zpacks standard, 13 oz for a WM ultralite). Obvious pros to that, potentially some cons, depending on usage and person

Quilts are a good option too at a much cheaper cost. In my experience, quilt temp ratings are more similar to the zpacks ratings (not bad, but a bit optimistic). Quilts do allow for more effective layering with clothes/jacket/summer bag, etc. That is not practical with a tight mummy bag, unless you put something on top

Quilts take a bit of experimentation and usage to use it right and know the limits

[ScareBear]

Here, this should take care of your space issues and keeps your down bag dry...

http://www.seatosummit.com/product/?item=eVent+Compression+Dry+Sack&o1=0&o2=0&o3=291-12

My experience with compression sacks and down bags is that you should be able to achieve at least a 25 percent reduction in volume, with up to 50 percent reduction possible. For about 1/10th of the cost of a new bag that you don't need....

[cmoulder]

With the Circuit you'll have no problem at all with an 800FP bag or quilt with a 10D shell. I have two EE Prodigy 40 quilts (Apex synthetic), one with 10D shell and the other with a 20D shell (so it's my 'loaner') and the difference in volume required is quite significant. And since they are identical in size, temp rating and fill material, the extra volume is all attributable to shell material!

And don't use a stuff sack and especially not a compression sack of any kind with your SB/quilt. Just stuff it in the bottom of the pack inside your pack liner and let the weight of items above compress it and utilize all that wonderful volume at the bottom of your pack.

[nsherry61]

Here, this should take care of your space issues and keeps your down bag dry...

http://www.seatosummit.com/product/?item=eVent+Compression+Dry+Sack&o1=0&o2=0&o3=291-12

My experience with compression sacks and down bags is that you should be able to achieve at least a 25 percent reduction in volume, with up to 50 percent reduction possible. For about 1/10th of the cost of a new bag that you don't need....
Yes, but over compression of sleeping bags/quilts (and other puffy insulation) significantly reduces their useful life. I'd rather pay the 1-2 oz penalty of a slightly larger backpack so I don't have to overstuff my very expensive puffy insulation.

[ScareBear]

Yes, but at the end of a thru hike, how much useful life does that bag have left? And, I discount the stuffing/life expectancy issue a bit. What do you think happens to that down when 200# of pressure is exerted upon it for 8 continuous hours a day? Or, more precisely, 200# of pressure exerted upon 1/2 of it...

[cmoulder]

at the end of a thru hike, how much useful life does that bag have left?

For a good down bag?? TONS. A quality down bag that is cared for properly can easily last 25 years. A few years ago I gave to my friend's BSA Troop a Campmor brand 25deg, 650fp down bag that had hundreds of nights on it over a nearly 30-year period. It still looked almost new, and had I not gone all-in for UL I would still be using it.

[nsherry61]

Yes, but at the end of a thru hike, how much useful life does that bag have left? And, I discount the stuffing/life expectancy issue a bit. What do you think happens to that down when 200# of pressure is exerted upon it for 8 continuous hours a day? Or, more precisely, 200# of pressure exerted upon 1/2 of it...
Actually, my personal experience is more dramatically damning of overcompression than the vast ubiquity of industry recommendations recommending against the same.

1st, your 200 lbs is compressing a lot at your hips and shoulders, but is not constant over night and is only compressing a relatively small part of your insulation on the bottom where it isn't needed so much anyway. In a compression sack you are compressing all the insulation in your bag for many hours, not just a little bit on the under-side of your bag that your bones are laying on until you roll over and compress a different spot.

2nd, I haven't ever made any attempt to measure it, but I believe a compression sack probably puts more compression on your insulation than laying on it does. I can and have compressed bags into stuff sacks using my whole body weight focused on just my fist to force a sleeping bag into a stuff sack. Then, if the compression sack reduces the volume even more, that suggests that the compression sack is compressing the insulation more than just my body weight.

Finally, my personal observations and experience over 50 years of using and packing sleeping bags. . . okay, my dad probably packed my bag when I was 5.

After as little as one night in a tight compression sack, my down bag will not fluff up, even over night, as much as it was fluffed up before I put it into the bag. It does fine if I just pack it into the bottom of my pack. I'm pretty sure my old North Face synthetic bags never again achieved their original loft (or warmth obviously) after just one 5-day trip where we over compressed them each day. And, they are stored loose and have been washed very carefully, all to try and revive their original loft. Similarly, but less dramatically, I also have some older down bags that are nowhere near their original loft and have only had a few month of nights (at most) on the trail, significantly shorter life than they should have provided. In contrast, my current down bag that I do not overcompress, ever, has had lots of use with no noticeable loss in loft over two years of use.

In my opinion and from my experience, the bottom line. . . Don't ever use compression sacks on your sleeping bags or other puffy insulation!

[eggymane]

With the Circuit you'll have no problem at all with an 800FP bag or quilt with a 10D shell. I have two EE Prodigy 40 quilts (Apex synthetic), one with 10D shell and the other with a 20D shell (so it's my 'loaner') and the difference in volume required is quite significant. And since they are identical in size, temp rating and fill material, the extra volume is all attributable to shell material!

And don't use a stuff sack and especially not a compression sack of any kind with your SB/quilt. Just stuff it in the bottom of the pack inside your pack liner and let the weight of items above compress it and utilize all that wonderful volume at the bottom of your pack.

I think I may get a 20 degree EE quilt with a footbox, I sleep really warm as it is so I'm doubtful my underside will notice much, if any, difference in warmth. I want the footbox because if anything gets cold, it's my feet.

In my hammock I only use an underquilt, no insulation on top, and that's been in numerous 20 degree nights in the mountains. I rely on adequately utilizing my merino wool layers and if needed my puffy jacket. I've never gotten cold that route. Maybe I can try something along those lines in my tent. Just thinking out loud on this one..but I mostly use the sleeping bag in the tent for comfort, as opposed to warmth.

[ScareBear]

My down bags pack so small, I've not needed a compression sack for years. But when I did, I had no issue with re-fluffing the down in the bag. Perhaps the bag's cleanliness(lack of oils and dander on the down) has something to do with what happens when using a compression sack...YMMV....

[fastfoxengineering]

A ULA circuit has some pretty good volume. Unless your bringing 5+ days of food and the kitchen sink you should be able to make it work.

They recommend the ULA circuit for use with a bear canister. Those are pack space hogs.

I'm not trying to pull the your leg, but maybe it's time to bring less gear?

My circuit swallows an xtherm, 20degree quilt, and a tarptent notch. I have more than enough space for some extra clothing, my cook kit, and plenty of food.

I just recently overloaded my circuit on a 13 day thru hike. No resupply. 13 days of food fit. But man was that thing uncomfortable for a few days. It was also cold so I had cold weather gear. I couldn't fit another snickers in the pack either.

Im confident I could fit a 0 degree bag and a four season two man tent in a circuit with room for the rest of a winter kit

Just sayin, practice packing that pack differently and you should see the light


Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[fastfoxengineering]

I should note on said 13 day thru hike I carried...

Dutch hammock
Suspension
20 topquilt
20 3/4 underquilt
Cuben tarp with doors
.9L cook kit
Fleece vest
Fleece hoody
Down hoody
And more

+13 days of food.


Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[Hosh]

I think I may get a 20 degree EE quilt with a footbox, I sleep really warm as it is so I'm doubtful my underside will notice much, if any, difference in warmth. I want the footbox because if anything gets cold, it's my feet.

In my hammock I only use an underquilt, no insulation on top, and that's been in numerous 20 degree nights in the mountains. I rely on adequately utilizing my merino wool layers and if needed my puffy jacket. I've never gotten cold that route. Maybe I can try something along those lines in my tent. Just thinking out loud on this one..but I mostly use the sleeping bag in the tent for comfort, as opposed to warmth.
The Enigma with a sewn foot box, IMO, is less versatile than the Revelation with a zipper/snap configuration. The Revelation will unfold into a tapered blanket allowing comfort at wider range of temps.

[eggymane]

When I take my hammock set up, including the underquilt, I could fit two beer cans in my pack. I have nothing but room and could easily get away with using a day pack for a multi day trip.

With my tent set up, using my Hilleberg tent, everything fits in my pack including my food bag. However, with my new shelter, HMG Ultamid, my food bag doesn't fit. With this particular set up the sleeping bag takes up too much room. I actually pack extremely minimal, less than most normal people would ever consider.

I will play around with packing more this evening, I may be missing something! And, I actually thought dyneema/cuben fiber would pack up better than it is proving to. It's light, but doesn't pack worth a ****.

[fastfoxengineering]

Yeah cuben doesn't pack as well as nylon. Ever consider keeping your shelter in the back outside mesh pocket on the circuit? That's where I keep my tarp. Easy to access, better to store it there when wet.

What kind of pad are you using

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

[egilbe]

If you get a quilt, make sure its wide enough to fit around you. They were originally made for hammock users who use underquilts that insulate the bottom three quarters of a person and a top quilt can be narrower to fill the space the underquilt doesn't cover. Thatame top quilt that is adequate for a hammock, isn't wide enough for a ground sleeper.

[eggymane]

Yeah cuben doesn't pack as well as nylon. Ever consider keeping your shelter in the back outside mesh pocket on the circuit? That's where I keep my tarp. Easy to access, better to store it there when wet.

What kind of pad are you using

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

I use a Nemo Astro for my pad, packs up incredibly small, prior to this I was using a thermarest prolite- I liked the prolite but it was prohibitively bulky.

The outside mesh placket is where I keep my tp, and rain gear- I have this thing where I don't like stuff on the outside of my pack so I try to minimize that as much as possible.

[eggymane]

If you get a quilt, make sure its wide enough to fit around you. They were originally made for hammock users who use underquilts that insulate the bottom three quarters of a person and a top quilt can be narrower to fill the space the underquilt doesn't cover. Thatame top quilt that is adequate for a hammock, isn't wide enough for a ground sleeper.

I'll keep that in mind, I'll be sure to take measurements so as to ensure it's wide enough. I wear a size medium t-shirt so I shouldn't need much more than what is needed for a hammock top quilt.

Now I'm curious to see how this dyneema holds up, or if it frays and wears out like cuben fiber-because if it frays than I won't have to worry about this whole situation as I'll just ditch it and go back to the Hilleberg.

[Turk6177]

I didn't take the time to read all the responses above, but I have used my Western Moutaineering Alpinlite for several trips. i use a sea to summit cotton/silk liner to help keep my bag clean. I have never been close to cold in my bag, but have only been in the high 20's. Even in the high 20's I never wore more than underwear to bed.

[AfterParty]

I would also recomend the revolution because when it is hot I just scrunch the footbox but I leave it unzipped. I would hate a footbox in summer months.

[climbing.kevin]

Hammock gear top quilts are a good choice. Lighter, smaller, cheaper, and warmer than big brand sleeping bags

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk

[Venchka]

At least if you have an EN number bag you can relatively expect certain performance. A 20 degree Walmart bag vs 20 degree REI down bag vs a 20 degree EN certified bag will be very different I'd bet. Many bags rate of "survivability". I have a 20 degree EN bag thats rated to -11F "survival". Know what the rating means before buying.

As an example I own a WM Alpinlite Long.
WM sells the bag in the USA as a 20 degree F bag.
In Europe the bag carries an EN male lower comfort limit rating of 16 degrees F.
In my backyard I have slept soundly at 12 degrees F.
YMMV
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[poolskaterx]

If you are not happy with your bag from REI you could always take it back and exchange it for a higher quality bag. I will be getting a quilt for summer use however I use the REI Igneo that is now on sale from $300 to $179. It is only 30oz and has an adjustable hood and is rated to 19 degrees; I have taken it down to 15 with my xtherm without issue. Packs down smaller than I need it to go and is a pretty nice bag https://www.rei.com/product/862532/rei-co-op-igneo-sleeping-bag