Burning Heet in Tent, doors closed

[Gambit McCrae]

So I'm no chemistry major, got a C in in Chem 1 and 2. :datzSo I will ask so I don't become a WB thread...

Is it safe, in a controlled environment to burn say 1-3 oz of heet inside of an enclosed space? Being in my case an encloser like a Henry Shires Stratosphire 2. Vestibules closed all the way.

[Miner]

No. Open up some ventilation. Also, you don't want to knock over an alcohol stove in a tent as the burning alcohol will spill out. Make sure you keep it in the vestibule.

[Starchild]

Besides the fire hazard, I have noticed the effects of burning HEET in my kitchen which is a apx 50x50 ft area (as it encompases a open format of 4 traditional rooms). It is not pleasant. Perhaps you can burn Everclear (apx 190 proof), but no HEET in a tent = trouble.

Again stove in a tent is another issue of trouble.

[saltysack]

Good ?....wondered about that as was thinking with a floorless duomid should be ok hence isn't as sealed as a tent...that said I've always been weary of a flame in any enclosed space..how flammable is cuben?


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[Engine]

Good ?....wondered about that as was thinking with a floorless duomid should be ok hence isn't as sealed as a tent...that said I've always been weary of a flame in any enclosed space..how flammable is cuben?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I believe cuben is susceptible to melting, seems like I read that somewhere.

[Slo-go'en]

Well, your going to be producing carbon monoxide for sure and probably alcohol fumes, neither is very good for you. Might not kill ya, but could give you a good headache.

The big risk is still fire. In the confined space of a tent, it's easy to make a wrong move and knock the thing over. Even with a floorless tent, there is a chance the fuel will spread out and catch stuff you have spread out on fire. Or just make a mess. Plus if the weather is so bad you need to cook inside your tent and you got your dog inside with you, that adds to the knock over risk.

[burger]

Saying "besides the fire hazard" is kind of like the doctor telling you "besides the terminal disease, you're doing great." Don't burn anything in your highly flammable tent, full of highly flammable synthetic clothing, pack, sleeping bag, etc..

As for the fumes, any chemists here? HEET is mostly methanol, so I believe (but could be wrong) that burning it releases only carbon dioxide plus water. But if there is any incomplete combustion, it will release carbon monoxide. Plus I think that there are other chemicals in HEET, and who knows what you might breathe. Not to mention that the fumes from the HEET alone are not great to breathe, and there will be some in the air when you pour it into your stove.

If you insist on cooking in your tent, open the doors and put the stove outside, far enough away from your tent that a spill won't affect you.

[Gambit McCrae]

Ignoring the physical hazards of knocking it over, I am looking at the O2, chemical hazards. I understand that knocking over flaming liquid is not good for fragile textiles like syl, cuben, and skin. Let me rephrase my question after a statement.

I sit on my couch, and on a cookie sheet on the coffee table I practice with my alc stove as I watch TV. I personally can never smell the fumes or get a headache.

Can I transfer this practice, with the control being that the stove is not going to spill, to my enclosed tent without getting a bad reaction ranging from a headache to dying.

I was on Black Balsam last weekend, wind blowing like crazy and I was a hankerin for a spot of coffee. So With one half of one of the doors open, I used my alc stove in the opposite side of the tent, wind free on top of my zlite pad inside a Tupperware bowl. I could really feel the HEAT produced from burning the HEET, and thought "huh, boil water, take advantage of a warm tent...the HEAT would stay in here longer if the door to the tent was closed", but I let it vent out as I didn't want to die before having me morning spot of coffee.

[DuneElliot]

The amount of times I've spilled some of the alcohol in my alcohol stove leads me to a big "no way" for cooking in the tent, which is why I always make sure to be setting my stove on a dirt patch or a rock. I might consider cooking in the vestibule where there is no tent floor if the weather was truly horrendous.

[Sarcasm the elf]

While I use a silnylon tent, fire is a major concern of mine. My understanding is that traditional nylon tents are treated with flame retardant, however silnylon tend cannot be treated in the same way because it interferes with the silicone impregnation.

If you google "silnylon flammability" this is one of the first things that comes up.


https://youtu.be/w492-EVCHQo

[booney_1]

Heet (yellow bottle) is mostly methanol. Methanol is toxic by drinking, skin absorption or inhaling. There are vapors from incomplete combustion.
So aside from the fire problem, I'd also not use it in a confined space due to inhalation toxicity.

[saltysack]

Looks like ever clear 190 is safest as far as inhalation issues.....$$$


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[Gambit McCrae]

Heet (yellow bottle) is mostly methanol. Methanol is toxic by drinking, skin absorption or inhaling. There are vapors from incomplete combustion.
So aside from the fire problem, I'd also not use it in a confined space due to inhalation toxicity.


Looks like the logical consensus is: Its a no go.

[Secondmouse]

this article has a lot of information and in the on page links. short answer, I don't use Yellow HEET (Methanol) anywhere without complete ventilation...

https://adventuresinstoving.blogspot.com/2011/12/methanol-safe-handling.html

[-Rush-]

You could always dump the alcohol stove for a canister stove. I still wouldn't use it in your tent, but it's going to be much safer than the alcohol stove, and you can get that cup of coffee a lot faster.

[English Stu]

Butane and ventilation.
In bad weather I do sometimes boil water in my TT Notch vestibule with an alcohol stove. Note that Carbon Monoxide (CO)poisoning is not the only poisoning risk of cooking inside: there is also a risk of breathing propane/butane escaped from a loose stove-to-canister joint or even faulty canister in your backpack. So best not to store fuel inside an inner tent.
Sitting in your tent, you'll be producing 1.5 oz (44 mL) of Carbon dioxide (CO2) per hour,whilst your butane stove will be pumping out 25 oz (740 mL) per hr, 16 times as much.
In the course of an hour, that amount of CO2 would occupy about a half cubic meter, which in a tent can easily raise the CO2 concentration well above toxic levels.
Do not use pans or pots larger than diameter 200mm (unless specified as safe by the manufacturer) – when the pot is too big, it concentrates the heat down toward the gas canister, which may cause it to overheat and explode.
Make sure the stove is well anchored as burns are also a danger from spillages and by touching hot metal.

[cbxx]

In the Mountaineering world it is regular practice to cook in the tent. If your tent has a floor, you will need a base to keep the floor from melting, or there are systems to hang your stove. I am plagued with spilling so I cook in the vestibule. Short time it takes to cook and air leaks should prevent any problem from fumes unless you are melting snow for a long period. I've never had that sort of problem. Like most things, it helps if you are blessed with, or have developed some common sense.

[4eyedbuzzard]

In the Mountaineering world it is regular practice to cook in the tent. If your tent has a floor, you will need a base to keep the floor from melting, or there are systems to hang your stove. I am plagued with spilling so I cook in the vestibule. Short time it takes to cook and air leaks should prevent any problem from fumes unless you are melting snow for a long period. I've never had that sort of problem. Like most things, it helps if you are blessed with, or have developed some common sense.HOWEVER, mountaineers don't cook in their tents because they WANT TO - they do so because they HAVE TO due to the environment. It's rare when hikers are confronted with the environmental and/or logistic situations mountaineers face. I'd add that virtually all mountaineers use either gas canister or pressurized fuel stoves - both of which are contained fuel systems with a much smaller risk of spilling fuel.

When it comes to tents, an open fuel system like almost all DIY type alcohol stoves raises the risk level. DIY stoves have an unknown combustion efficiency (how much CO vs CO2 is being produced). There is also an increase in risk level from burns handling the stove, pot, hot water/food in a cramped space; and also the issue of food odors which can lead to critter visits in some areas.

I'm not saying it can't be done safely, but it requires some knowledge, practice, equipment, and from a common sense standpoint - a true need.

[PGH1NC]

The complete combustion of 1 ounce (28 g) of butane will produce 43 liters of CO2 at standard conditions.
Basic stoichiometry.

[4eyedbuzzard]

The complete combustion of 1 ounce (28 g) of butane will produce 43 liters of CO2 at standard conditions.
Basic stoichiometry.If this were burned - and completely contained in a small tent of approx 1000 liters total volume, it would raise the CO2 concentration to a little under 5%, probably with a relatively small physiological effect. But at just above that level, 6 to 7%, is where mental confusion begins to set in, and it happens quickly - in a matter of minutes. Hence the need for good ventilation if you cook in a tent. A high powered isobutane stove can probably burn this amount of fuel (1 ounce) in about 10 minutes. So, fill the closed up tent full of CO2 AND displace the O2 levels as well, fall asleep, the stove keeps burning, raising the concentration further, and potentially bad stuff can happen. You can't see or smell CO2. I used to work in a brewery, and there were CO2 alarms everywhere there could be an issue. High concentrations can put you down very quickly.

[4eyedbuzzard]

So I'm no chemistry major, got a C in in Chem 1 and 2. :datzSo I will ask so I don't become a WB thread...

Is it safe, in a controlled environment to burn say 1-3 oz of heet inside of an enclosed space? Being in my case an encloser like a Henry Shires Stratosphire 2. Vestibules closed all the way.So, to apply all the tech stuff discussed to your question, without doing all the math, the heating value (by mass) of methanol is roughly half that of isobutane. So you're going to burn twice as much by mass as someone using isobutane. The chemical equation is a bit different (isobutane produces a higher CO2 to H2O ratio), but leaving all that aside, burning 1 oz of metanol inside a closed tent is probably not an issue. But burning 3 oz could be as you are now in the theoretical range of producing a 5% CO2 atmosphere. But, as alcohol burns rather slowly, and because you will ventilate your tent beyond its inherent leakiness (right?), you're probably going to be just fine. Just be careful - spilled fuel and spilled hot water are probably the biggest safety issues.

[DuneElliot]

The complete combustion of 1 ounce (28 g) of butane will produce 43 liters of CO2 at standard conditions.
Basic stoichiometry.

How is that even possible?

[rocketsocks]

Ignoring the physical hazards of knocking it over, I am looking at the O2, chemical hazards. I understand that knocking over flaming liquid is not good for fragile textiles like syl, cuben, and skin. Let me rephrase my question after a statement.

I sit on my couch, and on a cookie sheet on the coffee table I practice with my alc stove as I watch TV. I personally can never smell the fumes or get a headache.

Can I transfer this practice, with the control being that the stove is not going to spill, to my enclosed tent without getting a bad reaction ranging from a headache to dying.

I was on Black Balsam last weekend, wind blowing like crazy and I was a hankerin for a spot of coffee. So With one half of one of the doors open, I used my alc stove in the opposite side of the tent, wind free on top of my zlite pad inside a Tupperware bowl. I could really feel the HEAT produced from burning the HEET, and thought "huh, boil water, take advantage of a warm tent...the HEAT would stay in here longer if the door to the tent was closed", but I let it vent out as I didn't want to die before having me morning spot of coffee.you're gonna look pretty silly hiking with a cookie sheet...but hey, whata cool trail name!

[4eyedbuzzard]

How is that even possible?

Chemistry 101

Remember that the butane in the canister is liquid - a highly compressed gas, so it's volume is small until it is released through the stove's valve - and also that it's easy to overlook the mass and volume of the oxygen in the air that it will react with. The expanded butane gas combines with the oxygen (gas) from the atmosphere. The product of this combustion reaction is two new gases - carbon dioxide and water vapor. The mass (weight) of the butane plus the oxygen will equal exactly the mass of the two new gases formed - carbon dioxide and water vapor. But remember, gases take up a lot of volume per unit mass, in this example 43 liters of volume.

Start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_26Oigjq4k
Then here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAQQBN93WZ8

Lots of math and conversions from mass to moles and then moles back to mass and then mass to volume, etc. Pretty much basic chemistry though.

[burger]

Whiteblaze: I come for the hiking. But I stay for the chemistry.

Cool stuff, chemists. Thanks.

[ScareBear]

Whiteblaze: I come for the hiking. But I stay for the chemistry.

Cool stuff, chemists. Thanks.

More chemistry stuff to blow your mind....

How much CO2 does burning 1 gallon of gasoline produce?















20 pounds.

[John B]

Burning a flammable substance that produces toxic fumes for a purpose for which it was not intended in a small, enclosed silnylon tent on uneven ground far away from anyone who could possibly provide meaningful help -- what could possibly go wrong?

[PGH1NC]

Chemistry 101

Remember that the butane in the canister is liquid - a highly compressed gas, so it's volume is small until it is released through the stove's valve - and also that it's easy to overlook the mass and volume of the oxygen in the air that it will react with. The expanded butane gas combines with the oxygen (gas) from the atmosphere. The product of this combustion reaction is two new gases - carbon dioxide and water vapor. The mass (weight) of the butane plus the oxygen will equal exactly the mass of the two new gases formed - carbon dioxide and water vapor. But remember, gases take up a lot of volume per unit mass, in this example 43 liters of volume.

Start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_26Oigjq4k
Then here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAQQBN93WZ8

Lots of math and conversions from mass to moles and then moles back to mass and then mass to volume, etc. Pretty much basic chemistry though.


Thanks 4eye . . .

My calculations:
1 oz. = 28 g 28g/58 g/mol = 0.48 mol. Ratio of 4 mol CO2 to1 mol C4H10 forms 1.93 mol CO2

1.93 mol CO2 X 22. L/mol = 43 L CO2. About the volume of a medium size pack. This could be a few liters higher depending on temperature and pressure (altitude).

Concentration in tent depends on volume of tent and ventilation and . . . ?

I would use "mole" but I think the official is mol.

Didn't your chemistry teacher tell you stoichiometry can be fun!

[PGH1NC]

ScareBear,

1 gallon of gasoline would form about 4413 liters of CO2.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Thanks 4eye . . .

My calculations:
1 oz. = 28 g 28g/58 g/mol = 0.48 mol. Ratio of 4 mol CO2 to1 mol C4H10 forms 1.93 mol CO2

1.93 mol CO2 X 22. L/mol = 43 L CO2. About the volume of a medium size pack. This could be a few liters higher depending on temperature and pressure (altitude).

Concentration in tent depends on volume of tent and ventilation and . . . ?

I would use "mole" but I think the official is mol.

Didn't your chemistry teacher tell you stoichiometry can be fun!


I got yer mol right here!

https://www.store.acs.org/eweb/images/ACSStore/N5511.jpg

https://www.store.acs.org/eweb/ACSTemplatePage.aspx?site=ACS_Store&WebCode=storeItemDetail&parentKey=4200943a-a2e0-4d2e-9aba-9749959aa83a

[lwhikerchris]

Burn a stove inside your tent?

[saltysack]

Just don't fart!!!!


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[Venchka]

30+ ways to say, "NO!!!!!".
At least nobody said try it and tell us how it worked for you.
Be safe. If it's too nasty outside to tend the stove, do without.
Seriously. The answer to using any stove in a tent has nothing to do with Chemistry or your grades in chemistry and everything to do with common sense.
Again. Be safe.
Wayne


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[Malto]

Just scimming the thread..... so is it OK to cook up a mole in a tent or not?????? There's time you just want a bit of protein.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Thanks 4eye . . .

My calculations:
1 oz. = 28 g 28g/58 g/mol = 0.48 mol. Ratio of 4 mol CO2 to1 mol C4H10 forms 1.93 mol CO2

1.93 mol CO2 X 22. L/mol = 43 L CO2. About the volume of a medium size pack. This could be a few liters higher depending on temperature and pressure (altitude).

Concentration in tent depends on volume of tent and ventilation and . . . ?

I would use "mole" but I think the official is mol.

Didn't your chemistry teacher tell you stoichiometry can be fun!

The word is mole, but the SI unit symbol is mol. And I figured that you probably did the calculations at STP as well. That's standard temperature and pressure, y'all - don't burn the STP brand oil additive in your tent or you definitely will have a headache - or worse. Kudos for actually looking up the data and doing the calculation.

[Traillium]

Just scimming the thread..... so is it OK to cook up a mole in a tent or not?????? There's time you just want a bit of protein.

Don't. They taste horrible.

[rocketsocks]

Don't. They taste horrible.maybe you're toasting to long and scorching it.

[rocketsocks]

...or burning your chocolate.

[rocketsocks]

But generally speaking it would take a lot of fuel the cook up a mole' right.

[Trailweaver]

After using my stove dozens of times with no problem, I once lit it at a shelter and it blazed up almost to the top of the shelter roof. I really hate to think what would have happened if that had been close to a tent, much less in one. After that experience, I assure you I will never cook in a tent. Hot nylon on skin sticks to the skin & rips it off when you try to get it off you in the process of escaping the pain of being on fire.

[Trailweaver]

Just realized I was posting at the end of page 2, not 1. . . So - hot nylon stuck to your toasted mole would also just ruin the taste! And be tough to chew.

[Kaptainkriz]

Depends on whether or not you butterfly it.

But generally speaking it would take a lot of fuel the cook up a mole' right.

[RangerZ]

Thanks 4eye . . .

My calculations:
1 oz. = 28 g 28g/58 g/mol = 0.48 mol. Ratio of 4 mol CO2 to1 mol C4H10 forms 1.93 mol CO2

1.93 mol CO2 X 22. L/mol = 43 L CO2. About the volume of a medium size pack. This could be a few liters higher depending on temperature and pressure (altitude).

Concentration in tent depends on volume of tent and ventilation and . . . ?

I would use "mole" but I think the official is mol.

Didn't your chemistry teacher tell you stoichiometry can be fun!


Stop this right now. It has taken me all these years to forget this stuff and you guys are bringing back bad memories. I might not be able to sleep tonight.

[Kaptainkriz]

Q: How would you describe a stinky through hiker?
A: Mole-odorous...
:rolleyes:

Stop this right now. It has taken me all these years to forget this stuff and you guys are bringing back bad memories. I might not be able to sleep tonight.

[Bronk]

Burned a hole in my tent and melted part of my sleeping bag using an alcohol stove inside a tent. If you must, do it in the vestibule.

[saltysack]

Burned a hole in my tent and melted part of my sleeping bag using an alcohol stove inside a tent. If you must, do it in the vestibule.

That's an awfully expensive hot meal! About $800 to be precise! Think I'll eat a snickers...


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