View Full Version : This question keeps bugging me
How much (in ounces) insect repellent am I going to need to get thru the 100-Mile Wilderness?
I am going SOBO starting early June and just unsure how much to start off with. I will be treating my clothing in Sawyer permethrin, have my bug head net, a pair of lightweight gloves, and will be getting a mail drop in Monson so I can toss another bottle into that drop. I understand that every year is different and it's impossible to tell in February how bad the black flies will be but an average bottle size from some hiking veterans would sure be appreciated.
Thanks...Mike
1/8 ounce of bug repellent is a lot when you are putting it on. Even if it took you 10 days to cover the distance, I would think a 2 ounce bottle would be more than enough. Disclaimer: I haven't tested this theory...it's only a hypothesis.
Fret not. One tiny bottle of DEET goes a long, long way.
peakbagger
02-23-2017, 07:41
One of the bigger fallacies with DEET is more is better. Most folks use way too much. The standard Bens 100 container should last months. There is better product called 3M Ultrathon which was designed for the military. It counterintuitive, it has a lower DEET concentration that lasts longer than 100% DEET. The reason is that its designed so that the DEET stays on top of your skin instead of soaking in. Even with that product a small dab is all you need for each limb. Put a small drop on you hand, cover a limb, then put a second drop on cover another limb and repeat until your arms and legs are covered. There should be plenty on your hands to cover neck and face. If you have long pants and shirt, one drop should take care of all the exposed skin. One application of Ultrathon will last all day.
I expect part of the problem is that folks think that is they put enough DEET on that the black flies and gnats that a prevalent in the Maine woods will go away, they wont. They still will swarm around you quite close, all the DEET does is keep them from biting. If they are too thick that may even crawl on your skin looking for that one spot that doesn't have DEET on it (usually up a sleeve or under a collar. If the black flies are thick in the maine woods usually during May and June, there sometimes is no substitute for long sleeves and pants along with a hat and head net. Some folks use bug suits.
Mosquitoes on the other hand hang around later in the summer usually around dusk but they are usually less dense and DEET works pretty well but even they can get annoying if there are enough of them around.
The repellent companies usually do have instructions on how much to apply, but they are on the other hand in the business to sell product so they really don't spend a lot of time trying to convince people to use it correctly.
I hiked the HMW late last Summer. I used my insect repellent to keep the rodents away from my food bags. It worked better that way. Bugs were not that bad, granted, it was a low rain and snow year. Treat your clothing with permethrin. June on the other hand, it can be ungodly how ferocious the bugs are.
a couple ounces will probably be fine. As peakbagger said, bring a headnet, plan on wearing long sleeves and pants.
I've done HMW a couple times, both in Aug/Sep so bugs were no problem at all. I know DEET is most effective at mosquitoes, not necessarily black flies, which will be more of a problem in the HMW in early season. Not sure anything works for them except physical barriers, ie. long pants, long sleeves, heat net, etc.
I wear cheap plastic hardware store safety glasses to keep the midges (no-see-ums) off my eyeballs.
Full strength DEET, you only need a few drops to cover your body for the day.
TX Aggie
02-23-2017, 10:16
Along with all of the previous recommendations, be sure and treat all of your gear that you can with permethrin. The stuff really works well, and it stays active for months.
I personally like the Bens pump spray bottle for DEET.
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nsherry61
02-23-2017, 10:48
Interestingly strong thread bias toward DEET for use in the perfect environment to take advantage of the biggest advantage of picaridin. Picaritdin has been shown in at least a couple of recent and reputable studies to be as good as DEET against moquitoes and significantly better than DEET against fly species like midges and black flies . . . those nasty biting insects that swarm the north woods in spring and completely ignore DEET.
As per Google, not even addressing the effectiveness of picaridin against flies:
"Studies have shown picaridin to be as effective as DEET in repelling mosquitoes. Unlike DEET, however, picaridin is odorless, non-greasy, and does not dissolve plastics or other synthetics."
Back on the OP's point: I would agree with the above assessments that 2 oz should be more than enough, especially if your cloths are treated with permethrin.
TX Aggie
02-23-2017, 11:55
Interestingly strong thread bias toward DEET for use in the perfect environment to take advantage of the biggest advantage of picaridin. Picaritdin has been shown in at least a couple of recent and reputable studies to be as good as DEET against moquitoes and significantly better than DEET against fly species like midges and black flies . . . those nasty biting insects that swarm the north woods in spring and completely ignore DEET.
As per Google, not even addressing the effectiveness of picaridin against flies:
"Studies have shown picaridin to be as effective as DEET in repelling mosquitoes. Unlike DEET, however, picaridin is odorless, non-greasy, and does not dissolve plastics or other synthetics."
Back on the OP's point: I would agree with the above assessments that 2 oz should be more than enough, especially if your cloths are treated with permethrin.
Never even heard of it, but I'm always willing to try new stuff. Any links to actual product?
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TX Aggie
02-23-2017, 12:03
Now I realize why I haven't seen or looked at picaridin: it's less effective on ticks. And while mosquitoes are a nuisance, I absolutely despise ticks.
"Protection Against Other Biting Insects
Few studies have evaluated the relative efficacy of DEET and picaridin in fending off ticks, black flies, sand flies, no-see-ums, midges, and other biting insects. Available evidence indicates that picaridin and DEET are both effective at repelling black flies, while DEET is more effective at preventing tick bites. Conversely, picaridin seems to be better at repelling other biting insects, notably no-see-ums. The insect composition of your travel destination—and perhaps some personal field tests—will determine which repellent works best for your needs."
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How much (in ounces) insect repellent am I going to need to get thru the 100-Mile Wilderness?
I am going SOBO starting early June and just unsure how much to start off with. I will be treating my clothing in Sawyer permethrin, have my bug head net, a pair of lightweight gloves, and will be getting a mail drop in Monson so I can toss another bottle into that drop. I understand that every year is different and it's impossible to tell in February how bad the black flies will be but an average bottle size from some hiking veterans would sure be appreciated.
Thanks...Mike
This question would not keep bugging you if you use a proper" Question repellent " against it. :banana
You can also get mosquito bracelets that have a short lifespan, mosquito wipes and mosquito patches by life/trek that you stick on anything except your skin. Unsure how effective they are. I've never used Deet. Does it smell? The reason is if I treat my clothes and fly to Georgia I'm going to be unpopular on the plane. I've had tick bite fever twice. Chronic headache that drives you nuts. Don't want it again. One bite was in the groin area and other under my arm. They like hot damp places. Apparently they're active in the early morning and less so as the sun rises. Female mosquitoes are in search of protein. Without it they can't reproduce. They home in on your carbon dioxide. Any smell from vix to whatever that masks your breathe assists in keeping them at bay.
Traillium
02-23-2017, 13:20
Interestingly strong thread bias toward DEET for use in the perfect environment to take advantage of the biggest advantage of picaridin. Picaritdin has been shown in at least a couple of recent and reputable studies to be as good as DEET against moquitoes and significantly better than DEET against fly species like midges and black flies . . . those nasty biting insects that swarm the north woods in spring and completely ignore DEET.
As per Google, not even addressing the effectiveness of picaridin against flies:
"Studies have shown picaridin to be as effective as DEET in repelling mosquitoes. Unlike DEET, however, picaridin is odorless, non-greasy, and does not dissolve plastics or other synthetics."
Back on the OP's point: I would agree with the above assessments that 2 oz should be more than enough, especially if your cloths are treated with permethrin.
I'll back Picaridin's value.
Slo-go'en
02-23-2017, 13:53
When the flies are swarming big time, nothing helps. They overwhelm you by shear numbers. DEET has little or no effect, not worth poisoning yourself with it. After the first dozen bites (and resulting swelling), you build up an immunity and while you can't do much about the ones who get into your ears, nose and inhale (nothing is more annoying then having one caught in the back of your throat!), at least the bites don't affect you anymore.
Use the head net when you rest, hiking in it is way too hot. Build a small, smoky fire when you get to camp to drive off the million or two flies which followed you down the trail. Black flies are day time bugs, so once the sun sets and it cools off a little, they go away. Bu then the mosquitos come out, but then your in your tent.
Seeing that winter is already over, (62 degrees in northern NH today 2/23/17, this just ain't natural!) maybe the peak of black fly season will be well past by June.
Too many folks take the magic bullet one stop does it all approach. You're not doing that. Commendations to you for that wider perspective. Possibly add light pants and light LS shirt into the mix with the permethrin on the apparel and the gloves and head net you don't need as much DEET. I'd generally say a 2-3 oz amount should be fine for 10 days and you might not even need it all. Peakbagger gave very good info on the often overuse of DEET. Read it! More DEET is not always better!
One of the bigger fallacies with DEET is more is better. Most folks use way too much. The standard Bens 100 container should last months. There is better product called 3M Ultrathon which was designed for the military. It counterintuitive, it has a lower DEET concentration that lasts longer than 100% DEET. The reason is that its designed so that the DEET stays on top of your skin instead of soaking in. Even with that product a small dab is all you need for each limb. Put a small drop on you hand, cover a limb, then put a second drop on cover another limb and repeat until your arms and legs are covered. There should be plenty on your hands to cover neck and face. If you have long pants and shirt, one drop should take care of all the exposed skin. One application of Ultrathon will last all day.
I expect part of the problem is that folks think that is they put enough DEET on that the black flies and gnats that a prevalent in the Maine woods will go away, they wont. They still will swarm around you quite close, all the DEET does is keep them from biting. If they are too thick that may even crawl on your skin looking for that one spot that doesn't have DEET on it (usually up a sleeve or under a collar. If the black flies are thick in the maine woods usually during May and June, there sometimes is no substitute for long sleeves and pants along with a hat and head net. Some folks use bug suits.
Mosquitoes on the other hand hang around later in the summer usually around dusk but they are usually less dense and DEET works pretty well but even they can get annoying if there are enough of them around.
The repellent companies usually do have instructions on how much to apply, but they are on the other hand in the business to sell product so they really don't spend a lot of time trying to convince people to use it correctly.
Thanks for all the replies. I forgot to include that I will start my SOBO with long, convertible pants and a long-sleeved, button-up shirt. I enjoy and stay cooler in button-up shirts so it will be sleeves down to start.
To nsherry61: it's interesting you mention "picaridin" because I ran across that doing some research into insect repellents. Consumer Reports rated the Sawyer Picaridin (20%) as its Top Rated insect repellent with a 96 score. Ben's 30% Deet was second with a 93 score. The Ben's 100 Deet wasn't on the list so not sure if it was tested or not. Link is below:
http://www.consumerreports.org/products/insect-repellent/ratings-overview/
Again, thanks for all the comments and advice. Keep 'em coming.
ScareBear
02-23-2017, 17:48
I have found Picaridin to be extremely effective against no-see-um's, sand flies/fleas, mosquitoes and and gnats...however, in the 100Mile I'd be poisoning myself with DEET because of the ticks...I would think one bottle(4 ounces) should be enough for the 100Mile..
https://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Products-SP534-Repellent-4-Ounce/dp/B00BFNVFGY/ref=pd_sim_364_30?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=745X9SMRR9PQ5SJX6RET
Thanks for all the replies. I forgot to include that I will start my SOBO with long, convertible pants and a long-sleeved, button-up shirt. I enjoy and stay cooler in button-up shirts so it will be sleeves down to start.
To nsherry61: it's interesting you mention "picaridin" because I ran across that doing some research into insect repellents. Consumer Reports rated the Sawyer Picaridin (20%) as its Top Rated insect repellent with a 96 score. Ben's 30% Deet was second with a 93 score. The Ben's 100 Deet wasn't on the list so not sure if it was tested or not. Link is below:
http://www.consumerreports.org/products/insect-repellent/ratings-overview/
Again, thanks for all the comments and advice. Keep 'em coming.
Note that virtually all the insect repellent efficacy studies make comparisons of one product to one other product. You aren't doing that! You're addressing repellency from multiple perspectives simultaneously. You're level of protection will be higher perhaps much higher than any one lone bullet magic bullet approach.
I have found Picaridin to be extremely effective against no-see-um's, sand flies/fleas, mosquitoes and and gnats...however, in the 100Mile I'd be poisoning myself with DEET because of the ticks...I would think one bottle(4 ounces) should be enough for the 100Mile..
https://www.amazon.com/Sawyer-Products-SP534-Repellent-4-Ounce/dp/B00BFNVFGY/ref=pd_sim_364_30?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=745X9SMRR9PQ5SJX6RET
I agree... I hiked parts of the Northville Placid trail in a really bad bug time, and found i needed a half ounce per day. In fact, I ran out, which was a real bummer. But, I can't imagine worse bugs, and a half ounce per day should work for you -- so, 4 ounces sounds perfect for your trip. I did also use Picaridin instead of deet, and found it to be darn perfect and it is less personally lethal than deet. I have also had great success with permithrin as tick replellent, so agree with suggestions to count on both for total protection.
You can also get mosquito bracelets that have a short lifespan, mosquito wipes and mosquito patches by life/trek that you stick on anything except your skin. Unsure how effective they are. I've never used Deet. Does it smell? The reason is if I treat my clothes and fly to Georgia I'm going to be unpopular on the plane. I've had tick bite fever twice. Chronic headache that drives you nuts. Don't want it again. One bite was in the groin area and other under my arm. They like hot damp places. Apparently they're active in the early morning and less so as the sun rises. Female mosquitoes are in search of protein. Without it they can't reproduce. They home in on your carbon dioxide. Any smell from vix to whatever that masks your breathe assists in keeping them at bay.
TT, don't treat your clothes with deet. Permethrin is the stuff to use for clothes, and in my experience doesn't smell at all once the clothes have dried after being treated with it. And it works.
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My job has kept me in the woods for the last 30+ years mostly in the SE but also across the country and my money is on the Picaridin/Permethrin combo. Nothing is 100% but this combo is works for me. I replaced Deet with Picaridin for use on my person about 10 years ago and have not realized any difference other than no smell and it won't damage my gear (tent/hammock/pack/plastics). Use similar to Deet. Spraying your clothing and pack/tent with Permethrin to the point of wetness and then allow to dry and you have the best protection from ticks available in my opinion (and as previously stated with no smell once dry). The treatment will last thru numerous washings. Do not apply Permethrin directly to skin however. Follow the labels for both products. Both Sawyer products available at Amazon and are Prime items (free two day shipping) for those that pay the membership.
chiefduffy
02-25-2017, 17:28
From experience I can tell you: if its a bad black fly year, you should wear a bug jacket. It weighs nothing, and the sleeves have elastic at the ends you can pull down over your hands. Bites on the hands and in-between fingers can drive you crazy and can easily get infected.https://www.amazon.com/Coghlans-0057-Bug-Jacket-Medium/dp/B000NDWOH6/ref=sr_1_1?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1488058079&sr=1-1&keywords=bug+jacket
tree_ninja
02-26-2017, 21:10
I used the 1.25 oz bottle of deet, and it lasted me my whole thru. A little goes a long way