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Midwest Mike
03-04-2017, 11:26
20 degree EE Revelation quilt

medium-weight fleece

two down vests

fleece cap and standard balaclava

Thanks!

MuddyWaters
03-04-2017, 11:37
Realistically, I think of my 2 WM bags being good to temp. Bybthis i mean im snug, warm, cozy and sleep well.

I think of my montbell bag as being 5F higher

I think of my quilts as being 10 F higher really

2 down vests? Worry about head and feet instead. I wouldnt hesitate to take 20f quilt for 25f. But id have down hood, and expect cool feet.

It depends a lot on if daytime temp was 30, or 60, how long it stays cold. I wouldnt in winter , more likely in spring and fall

sethd513
03-04-2017, 11:43
I sleep cold in my quilt even after a good amount of time in it. I sent it back to get some down added to it. That being said with a down coat, hat and the whole thing I've had it down to 17* without a vbl before overstuffing it. My 20* enigma is now about 12* per EE. I haven't tested it since it was overstuffed.

For you, take one of those vest and wrap your feet in it if they are cold. Wear the other one loose on top of you if you need it. Personally I'd wear some wool mittens and a down beanie on top of that. You'll want a thermarest xtherm or something around r5 insulation value especially if up on a tent platform. I'm assuming this question is asked in a situation without a shelter? Tents and bivys add warmth. Tarps and shelters break wind.


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Sandy of PA
03-04-2017, 12:02
What R value mat do you have under you? I would need about an R5 for this scenario.

colorado_rob
03-04-2017, 12:24
20 degree EE Revelation quilt

medium-weight fleece

two down vests

fleece cap and standard balaclava

Thanks! I think you're right there, especially with all those upper body clothes, and assuming you've got that R5 below you like Sandy said. We're all different as to where we get cold; I'm all about my core. My feet and head never seem to get cold, only my torso. Certainly a balaclava and hat combo would be plenty toasty enough. Only you can judge your feet and how they do typically.

egilbe
03-04-2017, 15:40
What R value mat do you have under you? I would need about an R5 for this scenario.

I usually do two mats. But yeah, people assume the temp rating for their bag is off when they are really losing heat through the ground.

Cheyou
03-04-2017, 17:03
Yes the sleep pad is very very important. I would b toasty if I was on my xtherm pad

George
03-04-2017, 18:11
IMO if you sleep cold ( like I do) a bag is a better choice than a quilt

daddytwosticks
03-04-2017, 19:10
IMO if you sleep cold ( like I do) a bag is a better choice than a quilt

True, in my experience. Also, a bag is better in cold weather if you toss and turn in your sleep like me. :)

Engine
03-04-2017, 20:39
Last night at Sassafras Gap it was 24* and windy until midnight. I slept under my 20* EE quilt with a STS liner, lightweight baselayer, down puffy, seaskinz socks, and EE hood.

I was very comfortable all night...But I'm a warm sleeper.

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Hikingjim
03-04-2017, 20:47
bring dry and thick socks or down booties if you have them (booties not necessary at 25, imo). leg base layer + light pants might be good. In winter with my quilt I typically go with long underwear + a light pant for camp/sleep.
Your hat/balaclava should be perfect if the hat is fairly warm.

I assume one of your vests is a bit bigger? If all that stuff is two tight, the down might compress in your vests. In that case, you'd be far better to just lay one of the vests over you somewhere (such as your core or wherever else you're cold)

Agree that an insufficient sleeping pad will ruin your night regardless!

bigcranky
03-05-2017, 08:31
If I have a down vest I often put it around my feet. Also, I like to carry a small piece of closed cell foam a a sit pad -- this also goes under my feet inside the bag or quilt at night. Helps a lot. If you can afford a set of Goosefeet they are also great for extra warmth.

Comparing my new 20F EE quilt (the 2-person version) to the loft of my WM Megalite, which has 2oz added down, and thinking about the lowest temps in which I've been comfortable in that bag, then my answer is yes -- given the proper sleeping pad, my light base layers that I usually sleep in, goosefeet, and a down vest or jacket to layer over me. Below freezing I am definitely using a hood, either the EE hood or my down jacket hood. Fleece might not be enough for me.

Midwest Mike
03-05-2017, 11:15
Thanks to all of you. I can't get out enough to figure stuff like this out myself, so I deeply appreciate the input. The reminder about ground insulation is especially helpful; I might or might not have remembered to bring foam pads to supplement my Xlite, but now I will. And I hadn't thought about the various uses for the vests at all. Happy trails.

Venchka
03-05-2017, 12:01
My take on quilts in the 20 degrees range...
By the time you assemble all the hats, booties, puffy, etc., etc. you would sleep better in a quality 20 degree down sleeping bag. In the right sleeping bag you would also be comfortable well into the 'teens.
Ask Just Bill. He knows.
Wayne


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Francis Sawyer
03-06-2017, 13:24
Take the R value of your sleeping pad and subtract the temperature rating ( below freezing ) of your sleeping bag. Then for every 100 ft of elevation above sea level add .35 degrees. Then divide the level of humidity by your latitude and add that to your weight (in stones) then subtract your age. Then add your Hdl cholesterol level and divide that by the total number of points scored in the latest Australian cricket match. Finally subtract the angular vector of the moon and the number SHOULD give the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow.

Berserker
03-06-2017, 13:28
I sleep cold, and one of the main things to make sure you have as discussed above is good ground insulation. If I were going to sleep out in 25 deg I'd been using my WM Alpinlite (20 deg) and wearing a down jacket and synthetic pants inside of it...may sound ridiculous, but that's what I gotta do to stay warm. So yeah, another thing to consider is some synthetic or down filled pants...they're light weight, pack up small, and provide a lot of warmth.

colorado_rob
03-06-2017, 13:56
My take on quilts in the 20 degrees range...
By the time you assemble all the hats, booties, puffy, etc., etc. you would sleep better in a quality 20 degree down sleeping bag. In the right sleeping bag you would also be comfortable well into the 'teens.
I disagree. A good 20 degree quilt with a built in footbox, on top of a decent R4-5 pad is just as warm as an excellent quality 20 Degree WM sleeping bag. I have (or had) both and directly compared numerous times. Since my quilt (Katabatic gear 21 degree) was just as warm (meaning just as much down loft above me and on the sides), but over a half pound lighter than my WM bag, I sold my WM bag. Only a regular beanie-style (smartwool, in my case) hat is needed for head warmth (for me, at least, down to high-teens/low 20's), and I would carrying that hat either way. That all being said, there is a short learning period for getting used to using a quilt.

bigcranky
03-06-2017, 15:19
An African or European swallow?

cmoulder
03-06-2017, 16:19
Thanks to all of you. I can't get out enough to figure stuff like this out myself, so I deeply appreciate the input. The reminder about ground insulation is especially helpful; I might or might not have remembered to bring foam pads to supplement my Xlite, but now I will. And I hadn't thought about the various uses for the vests at all. Happy trails.

Using an Xlite at that temp I would definitely supplement it with a Z-lite, at the very least, and preferably a RidgeRest Solite. And put the foam pad ON TOP of the air mat.

Midwest Mike
03-08-2017, 23:46
Thanks for the advice and the laughs. Cmoulder, you would have the Xlite and the foam pads AND the SOlite? I was thinking the Xlite and two pads would take me up to about 5.5 R value, and that would be enough. But I'm happy to learn that I'm wrong.

cmoulder
03-09-2017, 10:06
Thanks for the advice and the laughs. Cmoulder, you would have the Xlite and the foam pads AND the SOlite? I was thinking the Xlite and two pads would take me up to about 5.5 R value, and that would be enough. But I'm happy to learn that I'm wrong.

OK well it depends on what foam pads you're also carrying, but probably won't need all of that (although warmth would almost certainly be guaranteed!). A Z-lite, however, is about as compact as (or "least bulky") one can get and still have adequate insulation. For me, a GG Thinlight did not offer any appreciable benefit and that the R 3.3 rating of an Xlite is exceedingly generous.

I have an Xtherm Max (R 5.7, 20.6 oz) and when it gets down to about 15°F or lower I still need to supplement it with my long-ish 3/8" Evazote sit pad in the torso area, especially when camping on snow.

Definitely test various combos at a campsite not far from a trailhead before getting too deep into the woods.

Secondmouse
03-09-2017, 10:52
so, foam pad on top of inflatable, or underneath?..

CalebJ
03-09-2017, 10:55
Some people are very adamant about the order they go in. I'm not convinced that it actually matters in terms of R-value. However, putting the foam mat underneath does provide some extra protection against puncturing the inflatable mat.

cmoulder
03-09-2017, 11:00
so, foam pad on top of inflatable, or underneath?..

I did some testing a few winters ago putting foam underneath and then on top during the course of the same night. It was always warmer for me on top. YMMV, for sure, so test.

Secondmouse
03-09-2017, 13:28
I did some testing a few winters ago putting foam underneath and then on top during the course of the same night. It was always warmer for me on top. YMMV, for sure, so test.

ok thanks, what foam pad did you use? my carry-along is a 24x48 piece of reflectix...

cmoulder
03-09-2017, 18:17
I tested GG Thinlight, 3/8" EVA from Lawson, RR Solite and just added (as of last weekend, at 4°F) the Zlite, but I didn't test the Zlite on the bottom. Zlite on top of Xtherm was super warm and will take be down well below zero. However I did test my oversize yellow Evazote sit pad (25"x15"x3/8") top and bottom, and it did nothing on the bottom and was surprisingly effective on top, barely insulating from shoulder to hip. I keep pushing it to see what is the minimum that will work for me.

Never tested Reflectix.

So far everything has worked better on top so of course I am developing a personal bias. It's dead easy for 'non-believers' to test for themselves — debating the technicalities is simply not necessary! :)

Secondmouse
03-10-2017, 13:49
I tested GG Thinlight, 3/8" EVA from Lawson, RR Solite and just added (as of last weekend, at 4°F) the Zlite, but I didn't test the Zlite on the bottom. Zlite on top of Xtherm was super warm and will take be down well below zero. However I did test my oversize yellow Evazote sit pad (25"x15"x3/8") top and bottom, and it did nothing on the bottom and was surprisingly effective on top, barely insulating from shoulder to hip. I keep pushing it to see what is the minimum that will work for me.

Never tested Reflectix.

So far everything has worked better on top so of course I am developing a personal bias. It's dead easy for 'non-believers' to test for themselves — debating the technicalities is simply not necessary! :)

thanks. it seems the folks who prefer inflatable on top of foam have a large enough foam to completely cover the bottom of the inflatable. otherwise, if any part of the air mat touches the cold ground, that robs heat from the entire mat through internal conduction. in this case, with a partial foam, it should go on top...

cmoulder
03-10-2017, 14:13
The 3/8" Lawson above was 25" wide and at the time I tested that one I was using an Exped Synmat 7, also 25" wide (the M/W version). The Solite and Zlite are 20" wide. I forget the width of the Thinlight.

I typically hate narrow air mats (dangling elbow syndrome) but I've got a Klymit intertia x lite (the teensy 6 oz one, 18"x42"x 1.5") to try just for the hell of it when the weather warms up.... I kinda doubt I will like it, but I like experimenting and love it when I am pleasantly surprised.

Secondmouse
03-11-2017, 10:20
The 3/8" Lawson above was 25" wide and at the time I tested that one I was using an Exped Synmat 7, also 25" wide (the M/W version). The Solite and Zlite are 20" wide. I forget the width of the Thinlight.

I typically hate narrow air mats (dangling elbow syndrome) but I've got a Klymit intertia x lite (the teensy 6 oz one, 18"x42"x 1.5") to try just for the hell of it when the weather warms up.... I kinda doubt I will like it, but I like experimenting and love it when I am pleasantly surprised.

I'm more inclined to take a small piece of foam than a short air mat. 18x36 is fine for my torso on top of a wider mattress and makes a good sit pad...

cmoulder
03-11-2017, 10:27
I'm more inclined to take a small piece of foam than a short air mat. 18x36 is fine for my torso on top of a wider mattress and makes a good sit pad...

Sounds like a good combo. I like the larger sit pad because it is long enough to cushion the butt and back when sitting on the ground and leaning on a rock or log. I call it 'my 4 oz chaise lounge' lol... does quadruple-duty by also supplementing the air mat, used as my door mat to protect the tent floor in the entrance area and sometimes as a windscreen for the stove, so it fits into the coveted multi-use category. :)

Secondmouse
03-11-2017, 13:24
Sounds like a good combo. I like the larger sit pad because it is long enough to cushion the butt and back when sitting on the ground and leaning on a rock or log. I call it 'my 4 oz chaise lounge' lol... does quadruple-duty by also supplementing the air mat, used as my door mat to protect the tent floor in the entrance area and sometimes as a windscreen for the stove, so it fits into the coveted multi-use category. :)

haha, 4oz chaise lounge. but that's exactly why I like the longer length - for leaning back against something.

larger size rolled up is not much bigger than the butt-sized ones but it's good for a quick nap with feet on pack, or to kneel on while making lunch, or to spread out the contents of my pack while invariably looking for something I thought I lost, etc...