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AllDownhillFromHere
03-04-2017, 23:13
With everything but spare clothes and consumables, I'm at around 18 lbs. I'm estimating 2lbs per day for food, and water of course as needed. Gear list is here (but recently upgraded to an Osprey Atmos 65):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oCVW3B8WjOjlplQMycklFiQ-qJs_H5toccit7ec3vck/edit#gid=0

Can anyone suggest any practical edits to the list here?

gracebowen
03-05-2017, 00:22
Disclaimer. I have only one overnight trip for practical experience.
However, I have read many threads and posts here on wb. Its my understanding that a bear canister is not necessary. Also, its only ounces but maybe a lighter smaller notebook.

ImAfraidOfBears
03-05-2017, 00:26
Disclaimer. I have only one overnight trip for practical experience.
However, I have read many threads and posts here on wb. Its my understanding that a bear canister is not necessary. Also, its only ounces but maybe a lighter smaller notebook.
hes a PCT hiker, probably just forgot to specify.....

gracebowen
03-05-2017, 00:30
Oh. Yes on the PCT its needed.

Dogwood
03-05-2017, 00:55
For PCT NOBO? If so start date?

What's the 8 oz plywood for? If it's your frame in the frameless Pinnacle, a women pack, can't you use the 8 oz Ridgecrest for that?

What's the reasoning for going from the 72-76L GL Pinnacle at 2 lbs 2 oz to the 4 lb 8-14 oz 65 L Osprey Atmos? Not the direction I generally like to see folks going increasing the wt of the pack, by a lot in this case, while going to a lower volume. How was the Atmos obtained? If it was a full purchase in the same price range, perhaps lower cost, a ULA Ohm @ 63 L or ULA Circuit @ 68 L could save some pack wt while saving do re mi?

If this is for the PCT your bear can is only required through a limited area. Don't carry 2lbs 11 oz of wt when lighter food protection systems, techniques, and considerations are at your disposal. Thats more than 3 lbs off your gear haul alone. It will even put more money back in your pocket!

AllDownhillFromHere
03-05-2017, 10:05
Thanks, I hadn't been planning on the bear can the whole way. The Pinnacle fails at about 30lbs, and thats with the birch replacement vs the foam pad. It just has no structure. The beefier pack handles the weight of extra food and water better. There's no way I could put 10days of food in the Pinnacle.

I'm thinking of dumping the stove, anyone tried that and regretted it?

StubbleJumper
03-05-2017, 10:51
Outside of the bearcan observation that others have made, I'll offer a few other thoughts, four of which are low cost and one which is high cost:

1) An 8oz first aid kit is a fair bit. Take a look at what you've got in that kit and see whether it conforms to your needs. Mine is about half that weight.

2) A 6oz notebook is a heck of a lot of paper. Unless you are planning to write a novel, you should be able to drop that to about 2-3oz by getting a smaller format (eg, 3" x 5", 30 pages). Every Dollar General sells small notebooks, so if you are starting to lack space, just mail the old one home and buy a new one.

3) You have a fair bit of weight dedicated to your shelter system (ie, 46oz). If you have some money available to spend, you could easily shed a pound for $200-300 by getting a TarpTent or some other ultralight shelter. It will probably rain at some point on the PCT, but it shouldn't be like hiking in the eastern USA where it rains 4 times per week, so you can probably get away with a single wall tent.

4) Do you need both a 20 degree bag and a bag liner? A 20 degree bag should be comfortable at 28 degrees, and then with some clothing, you'd be good down to perhaps 25. A liner would take you down to the high-teens? Is that necessary?

5) Why the Nalgene and the Camelback? I'm a Nalgene guy because I like drinking from bottles better than tubes. But if you are a bottle drinker, then why don't you consider dumping the Camelback and just using a couple extra Platypussies for water carrying capacity? Alternatively, if you are a bladder drinker, why carry a 6oz Nalgene?

Hikingjim
03-05-2017, 12:06
There are ways you can easily drop a few pounds if you want to spend (eg: that sleeping bag is quite heavy for an EN comfort rating of 33f). do you have some money to drop weight, or do you just want to get rid of items you don't need at all?

That bear canister is definitely pretty heavy to haul the distance.
Some of the tweaks mentioned above to your water carrying containers, first aid, etc, will cut a bit

Saprogenic
03-05-2017, 12:09
41oz is a lot for a 20* bag too. My 20* quilt weighs 16.5oz, and does the same thing.

Hosh
03-05-2017, 12:54
With everything but spare clothes and consumables, I'm at around 18 lbs. I'm estimating 2lbs per day for food, and water of course as needed. Gear list is here (but recently upgraded to an Osprey Atmos 65):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oCVW3B8WjOjlplQMycklFiQ-qJs_H5toccit7ec3vck/edit#gid=0

Can anyone suggest any practical edits to the list here?

Deuce of Spades - 1.5 oz
Oven Turkey bag -1 oz
Zpack bear line -1.5 oz
Gatorade bottle -4.25 oz
eliminate sleep bag sack -2 oz
Why the large camelback?

Rex Clifton
03-05-2017, 12:56
41oz is a lot for a 20* bag too. My 20* quilt weighs 16.5oz, and does the same thing.
A word of caution about a quilt. If you are a restless sleeper, (like me), forget about trying to substitute a quilt for a sleeping bag. You'll wake up due to cold spots for sure. IMHO, quilts belong in hammocks and sleeping bags on the ground.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

AllDownhillFromHere
03-05-2017, 12:59
Thanks for the suggestions guys. Some IMHO are false economies, but you've given me a few things to consider.

Dogwood
03-05-2017, 13:28
Thanks, I hadn't been planning on the bear can the whole way. The Pinnacle fails at about 30lbs, and thats with the birch replacement vs the foam pad. It just has no structure. The beefier pack handles the weight of extra food and water better. There's no way I could put 10days of food in the Pinnacle.

I'm thinking of dumping the stove, anyone tried that and regretted it?

You're going after saving pennies, nickels, and dimes when you're blowing your nose and wiping your arse with fins and sawbucks. :p You're at a phase where you can still work down the wt AND BULK of at least 3 of your BIG 4 items without necessarily having to take out a second mortgage. When not just the wt BUT THE BULK TOO is decreased it snowballs into a lower volume hence, HOPEFULLY, lower wt backpack required...which in turn affects the comfort of the backpack...which in turn frees up cubes for food and H2O bulk..if you don't have that mastered yet... or should you want to balance out the kit wt loss by adding in microspikes or ice axe for this PCT yr. It seems you're scrambling to put together a impromptu 'make the PCT happen' kit on a tight budget. That's certainly workable. There are ways to lower your hauled wt perhaps significantly by broad BIG 4 wt reducing changes, like backpack and shelter, and possibly other logistical techniques, without having to necessarily resort to $$$. Been in your position several times.

OK you're having issues with maintaining load wt transfer and having a comfortable ride at 30+ lb hauls in the frameless GL Pinnacle backpack. You still haven't answered my questions about why add more than 2 lbs 6 oz going SPECIFICALLY to the 4 lb 8-14 oz Atmos option when other backpacks in that same volume and lower price range are capable of hauling the wt with frames with pack wts in the 2lb - 2 lb 10 oz class...ULA OHM and CIRCUIT as two examples. That's a lot of wt to be throwing back into the mix for one seeking to comfortably lighten the load. IMHO, it seems counter productive for one seeking to lighten the load. :-?

Even if you're anticipating 15-20 MPD averages on the PCT it's a misconception there is an absolute requirement to haul 10 days food. I strongly suspect that anticipated 10 day food haul can be broken down into 5-7 day hauls by adding in an intermediary food resupply and/or reducing the food bulk and wt by supplementing. If a 10 day haul is anticipated for the Sierra segment of the PCT it has been VERY WELL ANALYZED how to logistically break this haul up to reduce food wt hauled. Don't buy into AT resupply norms as if every trail has the same cookie cutter resupply logistics or be dismayed if the AT resupply norms aren't standard everywhere.

If this is for this current yr's PCT conditions lower wt water hauls are perhaps ideally not absolutely required than many previous yrs with all the snowfall. So the water wt hauls of recent yrs 2012- 2016 may not apply so rigidly. Remember, temporarily overweighting a kit through gear or consumables is not a constant on the PCT. Wtr hauled can be balanced out by decreasing it here while increasing it there.

I like all of Stubble Jumper's recs for you too.

Ditch the 6 oz Nalgene and get a Smartwater bottle and larger Platypus(3L). With insight into this yrs PCT water logistics and making note of H2O caches one should be able to rock these alone.

FWIW, as one who already had several LD thrus under my belt(had kit(s) and consumable logistics already dialed in) I rocked the GL Jam II 50L frameless pack with a 22 lb avg haul using a NeoAir Shortie as my virtual frame through the Mojave on one PCT NOBO. I didn't like the comfort when I went over 30 lbs from water wt hauls either.

Hosh
03-05-2017, 13:56
A word of caution about a quilt. If you are a restless sleeper, (like me), forget about trying to substitute a quilt for a sleeping bag. You'll wake up due to cold spots for sure. IMHO, quilts belong in hammocks and sleeping bags on the ground.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

IMO and experience, being a restless sleeper is the primary reason to get a quilt. Being stuck in a mummy, on my back, legs constrained is very uncomfortable.

If you decide on a quilt, make sure you understand how to use the strap system and have an adequately warm sleeping pad. Adequate headgear is also necessary.

Dogwood
03-05-2017, 15:07
As a side to side to side rotisserie sleeper still haven't found a way to avoid drafts despite upsizing to wider, more than adequately wide, quilts and sleeping pads, and using the best pad attachment systems in the quilt biz IMO I know of which are Katabatics system. Sure, addition of a bivy or liner helps but sleeping things are becoming more complex in an effort largely initially aimed at reducing wt. IMHO the initial impetus of using quilts was a wt saving one. Then, the versatility and other possible benefits were attached to quilts as somewhat of a confirmation bias. When drafts allow heated air next to the body to escape and cooler air has to be rewarmed all the highly touted talk about warmth to wt ratios and loft measurements of quilts becomes a moot pt. Fitful sleep is fitful sleep no matter if in a sleeping bag or quilt that isn't working despite making concerted efforts to make it work. This isn't as much of an issue for folks enclosed in tents, those fortunate to be "warm sleepers", in warmer temps(above 40*), those that sleep on their backs(almost mandatory IMHO with quilts when cowboy camping(using just a quilt and pad) or when in the habit of minimally tossing and turning), and those that don't take their quilt temp ratings regularly below, or perhaps even to, those ratings. Let's not ignore the plethora of conventional but 'UL' sleeping bags that have been designed specifically to accommodate restless or fetal position sleepers. I hear statements from pro quilt sources I typically respect stating things as assumed fact like a quilt is 2/3 - 3/4 of the wt of a comparatively temp rated sleeping bag that I highly question the validity of. Keep in mind UL is NOT always defined as the lightest wt option!

That's not to say I don't have three quilts existing in my bag/quilt line up that are viable options. I just question some of the quilt assumptions and commonly pro quilt answers.

Rex Clifton
03-05-2017, 19:33
As a side to side to side rotisserie sleeper still haven't found a way to avoid drafts despite upsizing to wider, more than adequately wide, quilts and sleeping pads, and using the best pad attachment systems in the quilt biz IMO I know of which are Katabatics system. Sure, addition of a bivy or liner helps but sleeping things are becoming more complex in an effort largely initially aimed at reducing wt. IMHO the initial impetus of using quilts was a wt saving one. Then, the versatility and other possible benefits were attached to quilts as somewhat of a confirmation bias. When drafts allow heated air next to the body to escape and cooler air has to be rewarmed all the highly touted talk about warmth to wt ratios and loft measurements of quilts becomes a moot pt. Fitful sleep is fitful sleep no matter if in a sleeping bag or quilt that isn't working despite making concerted efforts to make it work. This isn't as much of an issue for folks enclosed in tents, those fortunate to be "warm sleepers", in warmer temps(above 40*), those that sleep on their backs(almost mandatory IMHO with quilts when cowboy camping(using just a quilt and pad) or when in the habit of minimally tossing and turning), and those that don't take their quilt temp ratings regularly below, or perhaps even to, those ratings. Let's not ignore the plethora of conventional but 'UL' sleeping bags that have been designed specifically to accommodate restless or fetal position sleepers. I hear statements from pro quilt sources I typically respect stating things as assumed fact like a quilt is 2/3 - 3/4 of the wt of a comparatively temp rated sleeping bag that I highly question the validity of. Keep in mind UL is NOT always defined as the lightest wt option!

That's not to say I don't have three quilts existing in my bag/quilt line up that are viable options. I just question some of the quilt assumptions and commonly pro quilt answers.
Rotisserie sleeper. I like the term, and it fits me like a glove. Don't get me wrong, I love quilts in my hammock but, try as I might, I could not get them to work on the ground. For ground-pounding I use Western Mountaineering bags and, although heavier than your average quilt, the warmth to weight ratio is excellent, especially since I use the wider 65 inch mummies.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

Venchka
03-05-2017, 21:38
IMO and experience, being a restless sleeper is the primary reason to get a quilt. Being stuck in a mummy, on my back, legs constrained is very uncomfortable.

If you decide on a quilt, make sure you understand how to use the strap system and have an adequately warm sleeping pad. Adequate headgear is also necessary.

You are not acquainted with Jack. Mummy style sleeping bags are not created equal. They range from claustrophobic pencil slim to wide body jumbo jet comfy. It pays to try them on in person.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Venchka
03-05-2017, 21:43
Rotisserie sleeper. I like the term, and it fits me like a glove. Don't get me wrong, I love quilts in my hammock but, try as I might, I could not get them to work on the ground. For ground-pounding I use Western Mountaineering bags and, although heavier than your average quilt, the warmth to weight ratio is excellent, especially since I use the wider 65 inch mummies.

Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk

I see that you are very well acquainted with Jack.
A wide WM bag was a revelation to me after decades in a pencil slim REI bag.
Cheers!
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hosh
03-05-2017, 22:02
As a side to side to side rotisserie sleeper still haven't found a way to avoid drafts despite upsizing to wider, more than adequately wide, quilts and sleeping pads, and using the best pad attachment systems in the quilt biz IMO I know of which are Katabatics system. Sure, addition of a bivy or liner helps but sleeping things are becoming more complex in an effort largely initially aimed at reducing wt. IMHO the initial impetus of using quilts was a wt saving one. Then, the versatility and other possible benefits were attached to quilts as somewhat of a confirmation bias. When drafts allow heated air next to the body to escape and cooler air has to be rewarmed all the highly touted talk about warmth to wt ratios and loft measurements of quilts becomes a moot pt. Fitful sleep is fitful sleep no matter if in a sleeping bag or quilt that isn't working despite making concerted efforts to make it work. This isn't as much of an issue for folks enclosed in tents, those fortunate to be "warm sleepers", in warmer temps(above 40*), those that sleep on their backs(almost mandatory IMHO with quilts when cowboy camping(using just a quilt and pad) or when in the habit of minimally tossing and turning), and those that don't take their quilt temp ratings regularly below, or perhaps even to, those ratings. Let's not ignore the plethora of conventional but 'UL' sleeping bags that have been designed specifically to accommodate restless or fetal position sleepers. I hear statements from pro quilt sources I typically respect stating things as assumed fact like a quilt is 2/3 - 3/4 of the wt of a comparatively temp rated sleeping bag that I highly question the validity of. Keep in mind UL is NOT always defined as the lightest wt option!

That's not to say I don't have three quilts existing in my bag/quilt line up that are viable options. I just question some of the quilt assumptions and commonly pro quilt answers.

Perhaps, but getting a quilt of the proper, excess, width and a wide, 25" sleeping pad, you'll be able to tuck the excess material under your body like a sleeping bag. Using a narrow sleeping pad increases the likelihood of creating a gap, especially at the waist.

Hosh
03-05-2017, 22:06
You are not acquainted with Jack. Mummy style sleeping bags are not created equal. They range from claustrophobic pencil slim to wide body jumbo jet comfy. It pays to try them on in person.
Wayne


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Actually a "wide body jumbo jet" bag would not be considered a mummy. Don't have time to try them , found a sleeping system that works in the desert, above tree line and all areas in between.

Better sure you've met Dick.

Dogwood
03-05-2017, 22:53
Perhaps, but getting a quilt of the proper, excess, width and a wide, 25" sleeping pad, you'll be able to tuck the excess material under your body like a sleeping bag. Using a narrow sleeping pad increases the likelihood of creating a gap, especially at the waist.

Agreed Hosh but that's now adding wt and bulk back in to what's supposed to be a lighter wt less bulkier sleep system in order to make it effectively work. This has me considering the existence of a pro quilt confirmation bias. It's not an absolute given quilts are always comparatively a lighter wt sleep system or concluding and passing off as fact that all things being the same a quilt is 2/3 - 3/4 the wt of a sleeping bag. It depends. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy using quilts in certain situations and can gear grand stand on their merits with other pro quilt users. There's some if, and, or buts though. Details matter yet are sometimes ignored as we tout the greatness of our gear. :)

Dogwood
03-05-2017, 22:57
I don't mean to come off as the Alton Brown of quilts. Not trying to be contradictory. :)

Hosh
03-06-2017, 13:01
Agreed Hosh but that's now adding wt and bulk back in to what's supposed to be a lighter wt less bulkier sleep system in order to make it effectively work. This has me considering the existence of a pro quilt confirmation bias. It's not an absolute given quilts are always comparatively a lighter wt sleep system or concluding and passing off as fact that all things being the same a quilt is 2/3 - 3/4 the wt of a sleeping bag. It depends. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy using quilts in certain situations and can gear grand stand on their merits with other pro quilt users. There's some if, and, or buts though. Details matter yet are sometimes ignored as we tout the greatness of our gear. :)

I would never try to project a one size fits all approach to any piece of gear. I would sleep on a 25" pad with any insulating layer, it's more comfortable for my large frame and worth the weight, volume and cost penalty, if you want to think of it that way. Quilts became my go to because of my sleep patterns, toss turn repeat over and over. A person, such as my daughter, who can sleep on their back all night like an Egyptian royal is far better off in a sleeping bag. She uses a mummy inflatable pad inserted into a BA 800 fill bag. The BA system eliminates back side insulation and relies on the insulating pad for warmth. It only works well, if you are a back sleeper, otherwise hood in the face, chills on the edges become a problem for "rotisserie" sleepers. Conventional mummy bag are less of a problem except for the falling off the pad issues.

For me, the advantage of quilts over sleeping bags has less to do with weight, cost or volume. They have a much wider range of "comfortable temps" without the hood in the face or zipper in the back of sleeping bags. I can use the same temperature rated quilt in the desert or sub alpine in the Rockies.

Hosh
03-06-2017, 13:04
I don't mean to come off as the Alton Brown of quilts. Not trying to be contradictory. :)

I have always liked Brown, the only bad advice I got from him was the "make beef jerky with a box fan and air filter". Did it once and bought a dehydrator.

AllDownhillFromHere
03-08-2017, 08:27
Thanks to those who responded, while I'll be upgrading to the full-length thicker ridgerest (aka groundcloth), I've eliminated some silly weight I didn't realize I was carrying, and it's going to net out lighter than it is now.

AllDownhillFromHere
04-05-2017, 23:47
Update: At about 20 lbs before food and water (base weight? dry weight? whatever?), and that's including the bear can and the stove. Also added an umbrella. Assuming a 2L water and 7 day food load, I'm at around 35 lbs. Obviously the desert sections will trade things like stove and bear can for additional water. Definitely got rid of some extraneous things:
Nalgene (if no stove, no need for hot water bottle)
Giant notebook (get a smaller one)
Might dump the camelback for platypus bottles as well to minimize exposure to a puncture
Still need to reorg the first aid kit, but I go through moleskin like it's TP, so I need to carry a lot, and hand sanitizer is HEAVY

poolskaterx
05-05-2017, 14:15
...5) Why the Nalgene and the Camelback? I'm a Nalgene guy because I like drinking from bottles better than tubes. But if you are a bottle drinker, then why don't you consider dumping the Camelback and just using a couple extra Platypussies for water carrying capacity? Alternatively, if you are a bladder drinker, why carry a 6oz Nalgene?


On the camelback, I would agree that a drink tube and evernew or platty bladder will save weight for a low dollar output. Those camelbacks are heavy; I do like the camelback bite valve so I swap that over to my drink tube:) I like two 1L platty and A 2L evernew for camp with just 1 swappable drink tube; this combination is actually lighter than just 1 camelback!

Siestita
05-05-2017, 15:14
Concerning water purification you list both Aquamira (2 oz.) and also a Lifestraw (2 Oz.) Why not carry only the Aquamira? Or, for even less weight (but higher long term cost) you could substitute MSR Aquatabs for the Aquamira drops.

During the past forty-four years I've made many short backpacking trips, but with none exceeding 2 1/2 weeks duration. I've successfully used chemical water treatment during that entire time, progressing from using Iodine tablets, to Aquamira drops, to MSR Aquatabs. Because they are very small and are packaged in paper rather than in glass or plastic containers, Aquatabs weigh almost nothing. I've not purchased nor learned how to use a Sawyer filter, but, based on others' advise, I would be tempted to do so if I faced financial constraints while doing a long distance, multi-month hike.

Another Kevin
05-05-2017, 15:51
5) Why the Nalgene and the Camelback? I'm a Nalgene guy because I like drinking from bottles better than tubes. But if you are a bottle drinker, then why don't you consider dumping the Camelback and just using a couple extra Platypussies for water carrying capacity? Alternatively, if you are a bladder drinker, why carry a 6oz Nalgene?

My Nalgene comes along because it's my coffee maker. I've fitted it with a Reflectix jacket. It's always in the load-out. Whether the remaining load consists of a Platyous or three, or the Camelbak depends on temperature, how frequent the water sources are and what mood I'm in.

I like having the Camelbak in hot weather because I seem to hike better when water is right by my mouth. I tend to use just Nalgenes in winter because Camelbak hoses freeze up and Platypodes crack (and in any case are harder to thaw out than Nalgenes). Platypodes are great when what matters is water-carrying capacity, as on some of the long ridges near me. On those you're always a thousand feet above your water. The water is down there, and it's abundant, but it's worth carrying a few extra pounds of water to postpone the trip to get it.

I might at some point consider a trip with just Platypodes, but I'd need to think up something else to serve as the coffee pot. More often than not, I brew a second cup in the morning, carry it in the Reflectix-jacketed Nalgene, and enjoy it at the first rest stop or even just sip it while walking.

That accounts for about six ounces of my "my style is heavier than some, because there are a few extra things that I personally want to carry."

AllDownhillFromHere
05-07-2017, 21:33
+1. To be "a bladder drinker" or "a bottle drinker" misses the point, and strengths of both. Nalgene = boiling water carrier = tea/coffee = water bottle for cold nights = warm roller for sore muscles.


My Nalgene comes along because it's my coffee maker. I've fitted it with a Reflectix jacket. It's always in the load-out. Whether the remaining load consists of a Platyous or three, or the Camelbak depends on temperature, how frequent the water sources are and what mood I'm in.
I like having the Camelbak in hot weather because I seem to hike better when water is right by my mouth. I tend to use just Nalgenes in winter because Camelbak hoses freeze up and Platypodes crack (and in any case are harder to thaw out than Nalgenes). Platypodes are great when what matters is water-carrying capacity, as on some of the long ridges near me. On those you're always a thousand feet above your water. The water is down there, and it's abundant, but it's worth carrying a few extra pounds of water to postpone the trip to get it.

I might at some point consider a trip with just Platypodes, but I'd need to think up something else to serve as the coffee pot. More often than not, I brew a second cup in the morning, carry it in the Reflectix-jacketed Nalgene, and enjoy it at the first rest stop or even just sip it while walking.

That accounts for about six ounces of my "my style is heavier than some, because there are a few extra things that I personally want to carry."

egilbe
05-07-2017, 21:44
I rarely use my water bladders any more. They are convenient to drink from. Problem I had with them is I could never tell how much water I had. I found it hard to ration my water if I needed to. I stll keep them, because someday I may need to carry three liters of water, or more, on a desert hike, but up here in the northeast where I seem to always walk alongside a stream, its not necessary.

BuckeyeBill
05-08-2017, 11:19
If you get out to some of the desert territory out west, you definitely need more than 3 liters. But YMMV.