View Full Version : Kinesthetic Awareness and Proprioception
http://corewalking.com/kinesthetic-awareness-proprioception/
Two big words that I was trying to relate on recent trekking pole threads. Combining these two concepts/awarenesses with low impact ergonomic efficient movements helps conserve energy, body, and makes for greater stability even without trekking poles. Perhaps, being aware of and practicing how to FIRST move lightly, safely, efficiently, and possibly speedily without trekking poles is a better progression for some. Then, afterwards incorporate trekking poles into this progression...IF need be or so desired?
Say what? Maybe a little over thinking?
Lone Wolf
03-11-2017, 14:18
ffffftttt.......
ffffftttt.......
........tttttffffff
Wayne
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ScareBear
03-11-2017, 14:31
Pfffffffffffffffffffffft.
But, seriously, thanks for starting your own thread to deal with your own ideas about perambulation and it's relation to hiking satiation....
Lone Wolf
03-11-2017, 14:32
it's just walkin'
Old Hiker
03-11-2017, 14:40
ffffftttt.......
Left out the "A" and "R" in the middle, boss.
Traillium
03-11-2017, 14:52
New thread, similar sarcasm … Oh dear …
Traillium
03-11-2017, 14:57
I spotted an experienced thruhiker just by the efficiency he used to move.
Key ideas, you've brought up, Dogwood. As a former race walker, it took me several years to develop those two awarenesses of kinesthetic awareness and proprioception. It took much less to transfer those learnings and awarenesses to hiking.
Especially useful uphill and downhill … Learning to flow …
Thanks, Dogwood.
Odd Man Out
03-11-2017, 15:03
Learn to move like the elves of Middle Earth. They didn't use trekking poles.
Trailweaver
03-11-2017, 16:54
Yeah, but they were short & when they fell down, there was less chance of injury. ; - )
There are advantages to having a low CG.
Elfs don't walk they glide, cf Legolas at the Redhorn Pass
Me, it's slew foot, hay foot, slew foot, hay foot and repeat. More like Mr. Jumbo the elephant or a Brontasauras than anything sylvan.
Seriously, yes most anyone can learn to walk better, just as anyone ('cept me😀) can learn to dance. But most hikers wouldn't bother, would we?
Thank you Trallium. You nailed it. You recognized it in others and were able to apply it yourself crossing over from running to backpacking.
I spotted an experienced thruhiker just by the efficiency he used to move.
Key ideas, you've brought up, Dogwood. As a former race walker, it took me several years to develop those two awarenesses of kinesthetic awareness and proprioception. It took much less to transfer those learnings and awarenesses to hiking.
Especially useful uphill and downhill … Learning to flow …
Thanks, Dogwood.
I was nearly finished with my thru hike and a hiker walked by and said, you must be a thru which surprised me a bit since there were way ahead of the pack. When I asked how he knew he responded that thru hikers walk very efficiently. Fast forward a few months. I met dozens of thru hikes in north ga. then I moved to PA and met many of the same hikers. A HUGE difference in efficiency. I have really noticed it when I'm around hikers that have have 10k miles or more. They seem to flow down the trail with or without poles. Very cool to see.
One more thought.... I believe trail running really helps hiking mechanics. I believe your mind is able to process foot placement effortlessly especially on rocky terrain.
rocketsocks
03-11-2017, 18:16
One place this is evident is in fly fishing, when you see a novice it shows, but watch Simone which the right mechanics...and it it's a thing of beauty, poetry in motion.
Thank you Malto and Rocketsocks. You got it. Thanks for considering and noticing.
TX Aggie
03-11-2017, 18:39
Watch a Ranger candidate during their ruck marches and cross country navigation. Their legs almost never go completely straight, they have a slight squat to them, and their foot movement rolls so quick and smooth you would think the bottom of their boots were round. And their idea of ultralight is anything less than 45 lbs.
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So, as there is no one in these parts teaching corewalking, are there any tips on how to learn this? As an expert and highly efficient skater, I have experienced the difference personally, but I don't know how to translate that to hiking.
MuddyWaters
03-12-2017, 10:52
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4c/33/74/4c33743c896b094c763b5cdf96c5abed.jpg
rocketsocks
03-12-2017, 11:28
So, as there is no one in these parts teaching corewalking, are there any tips on how to learn this? As an expert and highly efficient skater, I have experienced the difference personally, but I don't know how to translate that to hiking.Why yes, yes there is.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OORsz2d1H7s
As Michael Lanza says, new hikers, (and even quite a few with miles under their belt), hurl themselves at backpacking with all their energy and cluelessness not terribly concerned about ease, walking efficiency, lowering impact to joints and muscles, endurance, and aware of the two concepts stated. He's learned some tricks(walking and efficiency) to soften the blow of hard miles that have helped enabled him to go 20, 30 or even 40 MPD.
"While it's natural to think that walking is walking and there are no secrets to doing it better - after all, most of us have been walking since we were about yr old - as with many endurance sports, there are ways to hike a trail more efficiently, conserving energy and reducing the physical toll that brings on fatigue."
https://thebigoutside.com/10-tricks-for-making-hiking-and-backpacking-easier/
If one watches Heather Anderson, Andrew Skurka, JPD, Scott Williamson, Matt Kirk, FKTers, professional triathletes or LD runners these people demonstrate an efficiency of movement, muscle memory, body/mind/sensory coordination, and awareness of where their body exists in space that factors into their achievements. It's why hikers like Liz Thomas can read a book or map as they hike down the trail. I think that's worth noting! If you don't consider a sensory deprivation experience in a SD tank, or after falling asleep floating around intoxicated on a float toy awakening to find oneself well off shore, or spend several nights deep in a cave where no light or sound enters. Perhaps, if you rely on trekking poles as crutches it might be, at least in part, because these awarenesses have not been seriously acknowledged?
Before becoming an endurance sport athlete/activist when first starting to become aware of walking and efficient backpacking mechanics, Kinisthetics and proprioception I too thought it was ridiculous that I needed to hear about how to walk. I loudly and arrogantly (and ignorantly) bemoaned information on walking. I was of the same obstinate derogatory ignorance learning about a breathing and posture class gifted to me. After the two part class, no less, I realized a dramatic improvement in endurance, physicality, and mental outlook.
http://www.active.com/walking/articles/5-steps-to-revolutionize-your-walking-technique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY88G1xgDGM
https://www.ultrarunning.com/featured/how-to-increase-your-walking-efficiency/
Thanks for that Rockets socks. Brought back fond memories as that's one of my favorite animated Christmas special scenes and songs.
Tipi Walter
03-12-2017, 14:55
Since this is in the General forum and not the Speed Hiking forum, I can poo-poo the need for "backpacking efficiency" or "backpacking achievements" or even calling backpacking a sport.
Skurka (who you mention) on his blog calls himself an "endurance athlete"---something totally irrelevant to a majority of backpackers and hikers.
Go here for the link to this article "What Inspires You to Backpack? The Hiking, the Camping, or Both?"
http://andrewskurka.com/2012/what-inspires-you-to-backpack/
Here's where his head is at---
"I enjoy passing through extensive landscapes in relatively short periods of time . . ."
ENDURANCE ATHLETE
As mentioned, he says he's an endurance athlete so of course his "ultimate hiking" will be about this style of backpacking. Newbs and the UL community read this stuff and study his adventures and eat it up like candy and want to overdose on this fast and light drug. Many backpackers now want to be like him and they not only identify themselves as ULers or SULers but also as high mileage types, hypnotized by the fast and light "hysteria".
He also states---
"I pack light so that I can hike faster . . ."
Here's another strange quote:
"I travel efficiently so that I can hike more, to make 'constant forward progress."
But what is constant forward progress? Maybe it's spending 3 zero days stuck in a tent during a blizzard. Who can define "progress"?
He also states---
"The goal is to maximize distance---not for the superficial purpose of just covering miles, but rather for the rich rewards of experiencing landscapes (at a blazing fast 3mph I should add)".
Beware the keywords here: "Rich rewards", "experiencing landscapes", "blazing fast". A guy could move 2 miles a day and experience as much or more landscape than Skurka. There is no way to define the rich rewards coming from experiencing landscapes except when used as keywords to justify fast hiking (blazing fast he should add) and very light gear. A person could get as rich or richer rewards from experiencing a single landscape and do so while moving slowly with heavy gear.
I see no benefit in over-analyzing our outdoor experience. If you have a good heart and legs and functioning lungs---go out with a pack and start hiking and camping. Go two miles a day, go thirty---it doesn't matter in the least.
If one watches Heather Anderson, Andrew Skurka, JPD, Scott Williamson, Matt Kirk, FKTers, professional triathletes or LD runners
I don't pay much attention to the walking styles of hiking superstars, but I bet at least a few of them use hiking poles. The runners and supported hikers aren't even relevant in this context since they aren't bearing the sorts of loads that section and thru hikers do.
I'm OK with being an average hiker meandering along safely at my own pace.
None of us, not even the superstars, are exempt from gravity or the effects of aging.
Tipi Walter
03-12-2017, 15:26
I don't pay much attention to the walking styles of hiking superstars, but I bet at least a few of them use hiking poles. The runners and supported hikers aren't even relevant in this context since they aren't bearing the sorts of loads that section and thru hikers do.
I'm OK with being an average hiker meandering along safely at my own pace.
None of us, not even the superstars, are exempt from gravity or the effects of aging.
This is more in line with my train of thought. And for the highly vaunted so-called superstars---I just can't understand why they don't try and set a speed record wearing a 75 lb pack---but as you say, these speedsters aren't even relevant here since they aren't bearing any real loads. Wouldn't a 46 day AT thruhike while wearing a 75 lb pack REALLY set a record and be a challenge?????
MuddyWaters
03-12-2017, 15:28
I don't pay much attention to the walking styles of hiking superstars, but I bet at least a few of them use hiking poles.
More than a few.
What do the following pics grabbed from google have in common?
Besides that they are all recent AT speed record holders that is....
37225
37220
37221
37222
Lets throw in Andrew Bentz, current JMT record holder too....
37223
Lets not leave out pepper and trauma of winter pct fame....
37224
Or josh garrett
37226
Anyone? Anyone? Beuler?
.
Lone Wolf
03-12-2017, 15:30
me and baltimore jack never used hikin' sticks
TX Aggie
03-12-2017, 16:10
I enjoy hiking/backpacking because it's NOT competitive. While being efficient can certainly help most any hiker simply because it reduces stress on the body, that doesn't mean be efficient just so you can hike faster. If your goal is speed, ditch the trail and get in your car.
Yes , there are times out on the trail where you need to up your speed a bit to get to the next location before night/storm/shuttle or whatever comes, but other than that hiking is about ones own pace and enjoyment.
Life is fast enough, hiking is my opportunity to slow down.
Walking form and efficiency is important from my perspective and paying attention to detail can have big payoffs. For example, hiking poles only make more work for me when the trail is not going up or down, and a little leg lift prevents some of the many direct hits to the toes that used to happen. Paying attention to what works and what doesn't sometimes makes the difference in remaining injury free, or not.
Well, I'm not interested in setting records, for either time or distance. Not interested in competing. But my hiking partner, who is also my brother-in-law, is 8" taller, 5 years younger, and in better shape. Being able to hike more efficiently means I can keep pace with him better. This makes for a better hike for him as well as me. Learning the rest step helped a lot, but also made me realize that proper technique can make a huge difference, so I am interested in learning more.
I certainly don't put myself in the class of the folks Muddy pointed out. But I have a lot of miles in now and I think one reason I have had almost no injuries is that I make a concerted effort at biomechanical efficiency.
Every day I hike and part of every hike I deliberately concentrate on my form. I focus on posture, planting the foot at lightly as possible (hike without making a sound), not overstriding, keeping the toes straight, making sure the head is not bobbing up and down, etc. I focus on these things for 5 mins or so and then let the mind wander. If I stumble, go Splat with a step, jar myself hard I go back to a few mins of concentrating on form again. And so on through the day. I have done this for years. When I was a kid hunting and such in Wyoming I used to always try and walk without making a sound (this is good idea when hunting of course) so it is a practice I have used all my life in a sense. I have had many folks comment on how quietly I walk.
I am also certain that many newbies get hurt in the first 500 miles just because they do not have good mechanics. One watches them walk and it is almost painful.
When your neural oscillators that control muscular locomotion reach resonance, the highest degree of efficient walking is achieved. Walking with or without hiking poles will chance the point at which resonance occurs. Your body will adjust over time to become an efficient walker. In other words, just walk and don't think.
Most of you missed the context of my posts becoming defensive. My posts were not about speed hiking or hiking fast. My posts were about hiking efficiently, being aware of hiking with a low impact motion, hiking ergonomically, hiking in the zone in the flow, hiking being aware of where one's body is in space..... Some of you felt the need to take a defensive position because you do something differently than these people? Are you not aware we all can learn from each other without having to be someone else or do entirely as some one approaches their hikes? exact? Is that too much to require of yourselves?
I wouldn't be surprised most taking these defensive stances didn't bother to read the links posted?
Thank you Wyoming. You considered and grasped what was being posted. :)
I certainly don't put myself in the class of the folks Muddy pointed out. But I have a lot of miles in now and I think one reason I have had almost no injuries is that I make a concerted effort at biomechanical efficiency.
Every day I hike and part of every hike I deliberately concentrate on my form. I focus on posture, planting the foot at lightly as possible (hike without making a sound), not overstriding, keeping the toes straight, making sure the head is not bobbing up and down, etc. I focus on these things for 5 mins or so and then let the mind wander. If I stumble, go Splat with a step, jar myself hard I go back to a few mins of concentrating on form again. And so on through the day. I have done this for years. When I was a kid hunting and such in Wyoming I used to always try and walk without making a sound (this is good idea when hunting of course) so it is a practice I have used all my life in a sense. I have had many folks comment on how quietly I walk.
I am also certain that many newbies get hurt in the first 500 miles just because they do not have good mechanics. One watches them walk and it is almost painful.
I've been walking 2 hours daily no pack. Just concentrating on proper form(to the best I know). I think just walking and thinking about it has gotten me better at it, along with getting in shape. Normally when I hike in thinking about the rocks, roots or mud holes. A nice smooth sidewalk or trail slows me to just walk.
More efficient means I feel better at the end of the day and more miles the next day and so on. More miles means more trail in the vacation time I have.
If I can go from averaging 1.5 an hour to 2 that's 5 miles a day over 10 hours. On a two week trip I can see 70 more miles of trail.
https://www.youtube.com/user/samduplessis
I enjoy hiking/backpacking because it's NOT competitive. While being efficient can certainly help most any hiker simply because it reduces stress on the body, that doesn't mean be efficient just so you can hike faster. If your goal is speed, ditch the trail and get in your car.
Yes , there are times out on the trail where you need to up your speed a bit to get to the next location before night/storm/shuttle or whatever comes, but other than that hiking is about ones own pace and enjoyment.
Life is fast enough, hiking is my opportunity to slow down.
Walking form and efficiency is important from my perspective and paying attention to detail can have big payoffs. For example, hiking poles only make more work for me when the trail is not going up or down, and a little leg lift prevents some of the many direct hits to the toes that used to happen. Paying attention to what works and what doesn't sometimes makes the difference in remaining injury free, or not.
Well, I'm not interested in setting records, for either time or distance. Not interested in competing. But my hiking partner, who is also my brother-in-law, is 8" taller, 5 years younger, and in better shape. Being able to hike more efficiently means I can keep pace with him better. This makes for a better hike for him as well as me. Learning the rest step helped a lot, but also made me realize that proper technique can make a huge difference, so I am interested in learning more.
There ya go. Well said by all.
handlebar
03-12-2017, 20:47
Dogwood, Thanks for posting the links. While I occasionally focus consciously on my walking technique, I find that after several weeks on the trail, I fall into some of the more efficient practices outlined.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 11:20
I enjoy hiking/backpacking because it's NOT competitive. While being efficient can certainly help most any hiker simply because it reduces stress on the body, that doesn't mean be efficient just so you can hike faster. If your goal is speed, ditch the trail and get in your car.
Yes , there are times out on the trail where you need to up your speed a bit to get to the next location before night/storm/shuttle or whatever comes, but other than that hiking is about ones own pace and enjoyment.
Life is fast enough, hiking is my opportunity to slow down.
You're my new best friend. I of course agree. And it should be noted that Dogwood's link is an advertisement for the CoreWalking program. The author of the article is Jonathan FitzGordon. There's also the FitzGordon Method---I didn't click on the Special Offer link cuz I didn't want to give him my email address.
And while I'm sure I've been walking incorrectly for the last 66 years, and certainly backpacking improperly for the last 40---I still have two legs and two lungs and the willingness to continue to go out and get bag nights.
Plus, I see no indication in the cited link on how to walk with an 80 lb pack.
Oh wait, I found the Offer---$139.00 for the 5 DVD set.
TX Aggie
03-13-2017, 11:39
You're my new best friend. I of course agree. And it should be noted that Dogwood's link is an advertisement for the CoreWalking program. The author of the article is Jonathan FitzGordon. There's also the FitzGordon Method---I didn't click on the Special Offer link cuz I didn't want to give him my email address.
And while I'm sure I've been walking incorrectly for the last 66 years, and certainly backpacking improperly for the last 40---I still have two legs and two lungs and the willingness to continue to go out and get bag nights.
Plus, I see no indication in the cited link on how to walk with an 80 lb pack.
Oh wait, I found the Offer---$139.00 for the 5 DVD set.
Why thank you, I accept the offer of friendship.
Here's how to walk with an 80lb pack:
1: Hoist the pack into your back while citing several expletives.
2. Cinch down waist strap and shoulder harness until the expletives reduce to sub 75db levels.
3. Take one step repeating aforementioned expletives.
4. Continue stepping until you're resigned to single syllable expletives every other step.
Congratulations, you're now hiking with an 80lb ruck.
(Don't ask me how I know this technique) :)
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Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 13:10
Why thank you, I accept the offer of friendship.
Here's how to walk with an 80lb pack:
1: Hoist the pack into your back while citing several expletives.
2. Cinch down waist strap and shoulder harness until the expletives reduce to sub 75db levels.
3. Take one step repeating aforementioned expletives.
4. Continue stepping until you're resigned to single syllable expletives every other step.
Congratulations, you're now hiking with an 80lb ruck.
(Don't ask me how I know this technique) :)
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Thanks for the categories. Expletives are vital when hoisting an 80 lb pack. Here is my demonstration of Cored-Like-An-Apple Walking, or attempting to do so---These pics come free of charge---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-42bTMgb/0/L/TRIP%20121%20020-L.jpg
Standing upright and confident by the massive engorged (in this case) 90 lb pack---at the beginning of a trip. Note viking/king arthur-like pose.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-Gkm7Skj/0/L/TRIP%20121%20018-L.jpg
First attempt at lifting the pack to place on the back.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-qPsSXLq/0/L/TRIP%20121%20019-L.jpg
Note howling expletives (not audible in picture). Pack has risen almost 18 inches and shows progress.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-42PDWQV/0/L/TRIP%20121%20026-L.jpg
The all important butt clench lift off before total collapse.
Traillium
03-13-2017, 13:52
I try to move more efficiently so that I more sustainably use my body. It's not about speed.
Paraphrasing the centagenarian Canadian cross-country skier, JackRabbit Johansson, I hike now so that I'll still be hiking in 25 years (well into my 90s).
TX Aggie
03-13-2017, 15:04
Thanks for the categories. Expletives are vital when hoisting an 80 lb pack. Here is my demonstration of Cored-Like-An-Apple Walking, or attempting to do so---These pics come free of charge---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-42bTMgb/0/L/TRIP%20121%20020-L.jpg
Standing upright and confident by the massive engorged (in this case) 90 lb pack---at the beginning of a trip. Note viking/king arthur-like pose.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-Gkm7Skj/0/L/TRIP%20121%20018-L.jpg
First attempt at lifting the pack to place on the back.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-qPsSXLq/0/L/TRIP%20121%20019-L.jpg
Note howling expletives (not audible in picture). Pack has risen almost 18 inches and shows progress.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-42PDWQV/0/L/TRIP%20121%20026-L.jpg
The all important butt clench lift off before total collapse.
Lol, great stuff. Way to stay active and going out there. I know 20 year olds that couldn't do that.
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Lone Wolf
03-13-2017, 15:32
no poles for these folks
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/03/12/517923490/how-does-a-nepalese-sherpa-carry-so-much-weight?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170312
Traffic Jam
03-13-2017, 15:42
http://corewalking.com/kinesthetic-awareness-proprioception/
Two big words that I was trying to relate on recent trekking pole threads. Combining these two concepts/awarenesses with low impact ergonomic efficient movements helps conserve energy, body, and makes for greater stability even without trekking poles. Perhaps, being aware of and practicing how to FIRST move lightly, safely, efficiently, and possibly speedily without trekking poles is a better progression for some. Then, afterwards incorporate trekking poles into this progression...IF need be or so desired?
Just read this thread which (somewhat) validates my comments about hiking poles, being short, and having a lower center of gravity.
Not sure what people are fussing about. Proper form is integral to all physical fitness. From what I've observed, the majority of hikers have strides that are too long.
I often knit while hiking which is a great exercise for teaching (think muscle memory) feet and legs to move more efficiently. It's pretty hard to do both at the same time.
TX Aggie
03-13-2017, 15:51
no poles for these folks
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/03/12/517923490/how-does-a-nepalese-sherpa-carry-so-much-weight?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170312
Thanks for that link, a very interesting read.
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Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 16:21
Not sure what people are fussing about. Proper form is integral to all physical fitness. From what I've observed, the majority of hikers have strides that are too long.
Long ago I read Colin Fletcher's Complete Walker and he mentioned how important it is to find your hiking rhythm or cadence---and so you just walk and find it. Pretty simple. A couple people mention Fletcher in these links---
http://www.hikingdude.com/hiking-basics.php
http://sectionhiker.com/the-rest-step-winter-hiking-footwork/
I often count my steps when going uphill with a tremendous load. Brief pause after 28 paces (56 steps). Other times I do yoga chants on flats and downhills. On boring roadwalks with traffic noise I wear my radio headphones. No sweat.
For a backpacker, much can be studied on gaits or stride lengths. Long ago I found I had about four gears---
** First gear---boot ahead but not beyond other boot---very short steps on very steep terrain---up or down. "Mincing baby steps."
** Second gear---boot ahead and just past other boot---a short stride. Legs are pistons and they eventually get you to the top.
** Third---boot ahead by other boot by 6 to 10 or 12 inches---almost a regular stride.
** Fourth---normal stride on flat trail with a pack.
These gaits change of course in boulders or on steps or going up rooty 45-degree hell-trails. Think hand-holds and grunts and stops and starts. There's even an on-the-butt descent especially in ice---I call it the Bung Abseil. And then there are the Blowdown Gaits---squirting duck walks, gonad-crushing top-overs, flesh-ripping briar travails, belly flops etc.
What have I learned? Young backpackers can mostly afford to fall and do so often. In my 30s and 40s I fell often and without concern. In my 50s I started going slower and concentrating much more on boot placement and trail conditions underfoot. Most especially when carrying an 85 lb pack and most especially on creek crossings---a whole other subject. The Water Gait.
I also learned this important fact: Ascents require endurance, Descents require concentration. Points is, with focused concentration on boot placement, most falls can be avoided---good to know when descending a hell-trail with a 90 lb pack.
And unless you're doing a trail requiring both hands to negotiate the terrain---either up or down---a hiking pole(s) is a no-brainer. Most certainly on deep creek crossings.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 16:34
no poles for these folks
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/03/12/517923490/how-does-a-nepalese-sherpa-carry-so-much-weight?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170312
The take away from this story for me? This quote---
Carrier suspects that Nepalese porters adapt over a lifetime of carrying loads, often beginning in childhood. And injuries appeared to be remarkably rare, Heglund found in his informal interviews, perhaps because the porters tend to move slowly. If they were running late for the Saturday morning market, he says, they would walk late into the night to get there in time. But they wouldn't ever go fast.
As I always say---disregard the Fast & Light hysteria and go Heavy and Slow!!! It works. So you 18 year olds, start humping some serious loads and get your bone mass higher and your tendons, ligaments and muscles tougher and we'll talk in 40 years.
Throw an 80 lb pack on a 55 year old newbie who never backpacked? Expect crippling collapse.
Traffic Jam
03-13-2017, 17:39
The take away from this story for me? This quote---
Carrier suspects that Nepalese porters adapt over a lifetime of carrying loads, often beginning in childhood. And injuries appeared to be remarkably rare, Heglund found in his informal interviews, perhaps because the porters tend to move slowly. If they were running late for the Saturday morning market, he says, they would walk late into the night to get there in time. But they wouldn't ever go fast.
As I always say---disregard the Fast & Light hysteria and go Heavy and Slow!!! It works. So you 18 year olds, start humping some serious loads and get your bone mass higher and your tendons, ligaments and muscles tougher and we'll talk in 40 years.
Throw an 80 lb pack on a 55 year old newbie who never backpacked? Expect crippling collapse.
I wasn't raised to be a Sherpa so I'll keep my 20lbs, thank you. :)
Amen on the need for hiking poles on creek crossings. The trip that I crossed slickrock creek 12 times, the water was knee to thigh high and one of my poles broke the day before. Had to search for a sturdy stick before each crossing.
Why is it that every time TP chimes in on a thru hike, ultra light or endurance runner thread he has to brag about his heavy pack. NOBODY gives a sheet. Skurka would have to spend 2 days in an Army Surplus store to find 75#'s of gear. His exploits are remarkable, he's very approachable, willingly shares his knowledge and has found a way to make a living off the hobby he loves.
How about lighten up.
Why is it that every time TP chimes in on a thru hike, ultra light or endurance runner thread he has to brag about his heavy pack. NOBODY gives a sheet. Skurka would have to spend 2 days in an Army Surplus store to find 75#'s of gear. His exploits are remarkable, he's very approachable, willingly shares his knowledge and has found a way to make a living off the hobby he loves.
How about lighten up.
Every time.
After ragging on me you then describe how you hike more efficiently, mindful of how you hike, aware of foot placement, center of gravity, and demonstrating a gained awareness of your body and mind in your localized environment?
TX Aggie
03-13-2017, 18:29
Why is it that every time TP chimes in on a thru hike, ultra light or endurance runner thread he has to brag about his heavy pack. NOBODY gives a sheet. Skurka would have to spend 2 days in an Army Surplus store to find 75#'s of gear. His exploits are remarkable, he's very approachable, willingly shares his knowledge and has found a way to make a living off the hobby he loves.
How about lighten up.
I dunno, I'm a little new here so I can't speak for him. For me, fast and light is the easy expensive way to go. Both have their challenges: UL you typically forego comfort when you're not carrying your load. Traditional and "heavy" you're sacrificing comfort on the trail for comfort in recouping. I've met several people who can throw on a 60 lb pack and still do some serious mileage over billy goat terrain and no trail. Honestly, to me the UL looks more like a competition on who can spend the most on their gear.
It's everyone's own challenge. Some challenge themselves for speed, others for hauling capacity. Unfortunately I'm not at a point in my life where I can do a thru, but I'm pretty certain my pack would make the UL crowd wince.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 18:35
Why is it that every time TP chimes in on a thru hike, ultra light or endurance runner thread he has to brag about his heavy pack. NOBODY gives a sheet. Skurka would have to spend 2 days in an Army Surplus store to find 75#'s of gear. His exploits are remarkable, he's very approachable, willingly shares his knowledge and has found a way to make a living off the hobby he loves.
How about lighten up.
So, what's the CoreWalking program for humping an 80 lb pack?? Does Hosh have a head's up on such a question? This is NOT a thread on thruhiking or in the Ultralight forum or in the speed hiking forum. It was started by Dogwood in the General forum and he never mentioned Thruhiking in his initial post. Hosh bristles up at the slightest thing.
But conveniently Hosh doesn't mention Lone Wolf saying, repeatedly, "It's just walking." Odd Man Out mentioned Middle Earth. Nasty thread drift!!! Malto talked about trail running. TX Aggie mentioned US Army Rangers. Rafe mentioned going at his on pace. LW returns to mention hiking sticks. TX Aggie comes back and says "Life is fast enough . . . slow down." Hosh fixates on your's truly while all around him the topic veers off in many directions. Maybe he finds the graphic pictures upsetting. And making them was upsetting for me.:)
And Skurka? He says he's an endurance athlete. He wrote a book called Ultimate Hiker's Gear Guide but most of us here on Whiteblaze are not endurance athletes or consider ourselves ultimate hikers.
Just as Hosh can criticize my pics and pack and words, so can others have differing opinions of Andrew Skurka.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 18:39
Every time.
Not every time---You spoke too soon---
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/123728-Freestanding-Tarptents?p=2133926&viewfull=1#post2133926
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/123694-Regret-not-finishing?p=2134456&highlight=#post2134456
https://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/123348-Trail-to-Chimney-Tops-to-remain-closed-the-rest-of-the-year?p=2134298&highlight=#post2134298
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 18:45
but I'm pretty certain my pack would make the UL crowd wince.
You're lucky because this thread is not in the Ultralight forum, so you're free to post possibly negative UL comments. And anyway, ULers still have to walk and develop a cadence and explore characteristics of gait etc. They're not immune.
As far as wincing goes, a heavier load could certainly cause an ULer to winch---But then most of them aren't carrying a 3 week food load. And c'mon TX Aggie---I'm just glad you have some gear and try to get out as much as possible to various backpacking destinations. Happy for your bag nights---Could care less how much weight you want to carry.
TX Aggie
03-13-2017, 19:10
You're lucky because this thread is not in the Ultralight forum, so you're free to post possibly negative UL comments. And anyway, ULers still have to walk and develop a cadence and explore characteristics of gait etc. They're not immune.
As far as wincing goes, a heavier load could certainly cause an ULer to winch---But then most of them aren't carrying a 3 week food load. And c'mon TX Aggie---I'm just glad you have some gear and try to get out as much as possible to various backpacking destinations. Happy for your bag nights---Could care less how much weight you want to carry.
I just laugh at how everyone get so defensive about UL or heavy either way. I expect that in other forums, it kind of threw me here.
TW, all REAL hikers are thru-hikers going fast and light. ;)
Backpacking has much to do with endurance...in one way or another. Don't ya think it takes endurance getting 100lb sack of avos onto the shoulders?...or staying out three weeks without a resupply in winter snow?
"Could care less how much weight you want to carry." Seems you care a great deal when someone is going UL. BTW, as one with UL backpacking and living approaches even though I rib ya about the wt you carry it's always tongue in cheek. I could care less how much wt you carry...:p
You're lucky because this thread is not in the Ultralight forum, so you're free to post possibly negative UL comments. And anyway, ULers still have to walk and develop a cadence and explore characteristics of gait etc. They're not immune.
As far as wincing goes, a heavier load could certainly cause an ULer to winch---But then most of them aren't carrying a 3 week food load. And c'mon TX Aggie---I'm just glad you have some gear and try to get out as much as possible to various backpacking destinations. Happy for your bag nights---Could care less how much weight you want to carry.
Ok, I finally see the light. TW you are the only real hiker out there, everyone else is a pretender. You seem to want to feel superior, fine, here is your chance. Maybe one of these days you will get over the time when a "UL hiker" pissed in your cookpot. hail to TW! hail to TW! May I one day be fortunate enough to walk in your boot steps.
ScareBear
03-13-2017, 21:43
Why is it that every time TP chimes in on a thru hike, ultra light or endurance runner thread he has to brag about his heavy pack. NOBODY gives a sheet. Skurka would have to spend 2 days in an Army Surplus store to find 75#'s of gear. His exploits are remarkable, he's very approachable, willingly shares his knowledge and has found a way to make a living off the hobby he loves.
How about lighten up.
Yeah, he makes a living by putting his name on a 2pound 5ounce 1Person brick of a tent. Dude sold out. Cred is lost. Tent is an EpicFail(tm). Oh, and apparently he thinks a Victorinox is ultralight too. Actually, anybody who pays him can be endorsed as ultralight. Just look at that tent...oh...so....light....
ScareBear
03-13-2017, 21:47
Also, regarding huge packs...I still feel bad for that poor newbie gal from Miami who had the gigantic white pack at Springer in 14. I have no idea what the hell brand the pack was, but it was so big and so heavy that she had to put it on sitting down, then get on her knees, and then try and stand. At Cooper Gap she finally figured out it was easier to back up against a tree for support while trying to stand up with that monster on her back. I think she brought a laptop. Seriously.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 22:04
Yeah, he makes a living by putting his name on a 2pound 5ounce 1Person brick of a tent. Dude sold out. Cred is lost. Tent is an EpicFail(tm). Oh, and apparently he thinks a Victorinox is ultralight too. Actually, anybody who pays him can be endorsed as ultralight. Just look at that tent...oh...so....light....
I think you're talking about Andrew Skurka here---readers take note. Couldn't be about me cuz happily my tent is 8 lbs 10 ozs.
Also, regarding huge packs...I still feel bad for that poor newbie gal from Miami who had the gigantic white pack at Springer in 14. I have no idea what the hell brand the pack was, but it was so big and so heavy that she had to put it on sitting down, then get on her knees, and then try and stand. At Cooper Gap she finally figured out it was easier to back up against a tree for support while trying to stand up with that monster on her back. I think she brought a laptop. Seriously.
At least she was outdoors and probably getting a few bag nights.
MuddyWaters
03-13-2017, 22:10
I got a Grace Vanderwaal song stuck in my head for a whole week hiking last fall.
It helped me walk better.
To Dogwood: Thank you for this thread and generally thank you for your commitment to educate people like me and keeping WB worthy of review. I for one always feel good when I come to WB and see you are still around and helpful. Most LD hikers eventually ( most is optimistic word but WTH) find the way to hike efficiently but it sometimes comes after they have hurt or traumatized their joints( knee,ankle,back,hip ) in various degrees. If there is a course or DVD that can teach them before they have paid the price with their body and muscles, it well worth the try. It is less money spent than just one visit to an MD and it is a life long lesson.
Tipi Walter: in my first LD hike it took me a week to register that 50 pounds pack is not sustainable and wise to carry. How you are still carrying your 80 pound pack and feel no need to change is beyond me. As long as I am not carrying your pack it does not bother me. It does bother me that you are still trying to justify your pack weight for us and you think carrying heavy pack has any pros to weigh against cons. I for one do not comment about your pack weight because things that needs to be told has been told countless times and you are what you are and you carry your pack on your shoulder not mine.
you can extend your hiking carrier for years if lighten your pack weight but it is your life and possibly you will find it out when it is too late and regret is pointless when it is too late.
LW always has a pass in my book. He is the pillar of WB and his presence as one of the first members of WB is way more important than what he says about hiking poles plus him not using a hiking pole is a controversial topic and many hikers still do not use it so it is not crazy point of view. He always says he never appreciates the need for poles. He does not say don't use it.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 22:13
Ok, I finally see the light. TW you are the only real hiker out there, everyone else is a pretender. You seem to want to feel superior, fine, here is your chance. Maybe one of these days you will get over the time when a "UL hiker" pissed in your cookpot. hail to TW! hail to TW! May I one day be fortunate enough to walk in your boot steps.
How could I be so great if I'm sitting here at a computer and not out hiking???? While it's true clenched butt cheeks will get you upright with an enormous weight, you must've missed the part afterwards about total collapse.
Perhaps, being aware of and practicing how to FIRST move lightly, safely, efficiently, and possibly speedily without trekking poles is a better progression for some. Then, afterwards incorporate trekking poles into this progression...IF need be or so desired?
I did something like that. Not by plan. It just turned out that way. When I first started backpacking, in my mid-twenties, I didn't use trekking poles. None of us did. We carried insanely heavy packs and didn't think much of it. We didn't cover that many miles in a day but we sure had fun and ate well at camp. But that was about forty years ago and all sorts of things have changed. The gear. Our bodies.
Somewhere in the middle of all that I ventured into long distance hiking. Still without poles. For me, poles for hiking are relatively new, I think it was in 2000. I'd walked about half the AT by then. I'd seen more and more hikers using them and thought I'd give 'em a try. When I did, I felt dumb for having held out so long. There was no learning curve. The benefit was immediate.
I have no dogma in the fight. Seen both sides. I'll consider any and all technology that keeps this old body hiking. Not a lick of shame about that. I'm in it for the long run -- not miles, but years.
ScareBear
03-13-2017, 22:23
She could have used that pack as a bag. Speaking of which....there is the next big ultralight invention...your pack does a 007 move and turns into your shelter....
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 22:29
Tipi Walter: in my first LD hike it took me a week to register that 50 pounds pack is not sustainable and wise to carry. How you are still carrying your 80 pound pack and feel no need to change is beyond me.
As long as I am not carrying your pack it does not bother me. It does bother me that you are still trying to justify your pack weight for us and you think carrying heavy pack has any pros to weigh against cons. I for one do not comment about your pack weight because things that needs to be told has been told countless times and you are what you are and you carry your pack on your shoulder not mine.
you can extend your hiking carrier for years if lighten your pack weight but it is your life and possibly you will find it out when it is too late and regret is pointless when it is too late.
To point 1: Big pack weights allow 1) A person to stay out for several weeks without resupply and 2), I don't pull more than about 3-5 miles a day for the first week, until my food and fuel (and book) weights drop. I'm not on a forced march to make it to Maine. I CAN'T do 10 mile days until later in the trip; but then again, hiking 2 miles with a 90 lb pack is like walking 8 or 10 miles with a regular pack. Try it and you'll see.
To point 2: The pros of a heavy pack is as mentioned above---Staying out in the woods for 3 weeks without resupply.
Point 3: You must've not read LW's link on sherpas---They carry tremendous weights as in the below quote. I've been walking with 60-90 lb packs for 36 years, from age 30 to 66---and so far the worst thing happening is my prostate is about to explode.
Nepalese porters adapt over a lifetime of carrying loads, often beginning in childhood. And injuries appeared to be remarkably rare,
MuddyWaters
03-13-2017, 22:38
Tipis not that heavy when you take away 42 lb of food and 10 lbs of books in winter.....he just believes in staying out. Others like to always see new stuff. Others like to push their pace to limit and cover really high miles.
Its all good.
If I was lost in a feb blizzard on a southern bald, tipis the one Id want to run into.
I did something like that. Not by plan. It just turned out that way. When I first started backpacking, in my mid-twenties, I didn't use trekking poles. None of us did. We carried insanely heavy packs and didn't think much of it. We didn't cover that many miles in a day but we sure had fun and ate well at camp. But that was about forty years ago and all sorts of things have changed. The gear. Our bodies.
Somewhere in the middle of all that I ventured into long distance hiking. Still without poles. For me, poles for hiking are relatively new, I think it was in 2000. I'd walked about half the AT by then. I'd seen more and more hikers using them and thought I'd give 'em a try. When I did, I felt dumb for having held out so long. There was no learning curve. The benefit was immediate.
I have no dogma in the fight. Seen both sides. I'll consider any and all technology that keeps this old body hiking. Not a lick of shame about that. I'm in it for the long run -- not miles, but years.
Same here, I poo-poo-ed poles for years until I tried them and saw the light. They make you a more efficient walker.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 22:39
We carried insanely heavy packs and didn't think much of it. We didn't cover that many miles in a day but we sure had fun and ate well at camp.
At least you did it once and know what it's about. "We had fun" says it all. Reminds me of a Chris Townsend quote---
"The answer to the problem of food weight is to resupply more often. This is fine if you're happy . . . to leave the wilds every few days. However staying out for long periods of time with no contact with civilization is appealing and can make for a deeper contact with nature and a more satisfying experience."
Totally agree with this.
"The next challenge came as I approached the High Sierra. Late snow meant it was completely snowbound." Together we made it through the snow, talking 3 weeks on the longest section. My pack was so heavy at the start that I couldn't actually lift it. I had to sit down, put it on then gingerly stand up . . ." "I can't now remember the weight or the pain . . . but I can remember the joy of spending so many days without leaving the wilderness."
POSTSCRIPT
"The weight was ridiculous and I've never carried such a stupid load since but the rewards made the effort worthwhile." ALL QUOTES CHRIS TOWNSEND
ScareBear
03-13-2017, 22:40
TipiSherpa(tm)!!!! Coming to an AT traihead near you! Available to carry full AT loads for up to 3 people for a week at a time without resupply. The ultimate in slack packing the AT!!! :D:D
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 22:56
TipiSherpa(tm)!!!! Coming to an AT traihead near you! Available to carry full AT loads for up to 3 people for a week at a time without resupply. The ultimate in slack packing the AT!!! :D:D
I figure we could do 2 miles a day with 30 day food loads and reach Maine in 3 years, 10 months---with every 7th day a zero.
TX Aggie
03-13-2017, 23:23
Wow....
I expect this type of banter in my tactical groups, but not here.
To you UL guys: UL isn't the be all to end all. It works for places like the AT, but it doesn't work for elk hunting in the Colorado wilderness. When I first started trolling this group about a year ago, I got put off and stayed away for a while because so many people tried to tell me how wrong I am for my 60 lb ruck. This whole "fat shaming" with your pack weight doesn't exactly make people feel good about joining the community.
TW, Hike your hike, let them hike theirs. There's nothing wrong with adapting to new technology to make the journey a bit easier. I'm slowly getting there, maybe by next year I'll be down to 55 lbs instead of 60. But then I'll find something new to throw into the pack in addition to everything else and I'll be back up to 65. Se la vie.
I don't care if TP has a 150# pack and has to dig a 4' deep hole to put it one. I just wish he would shut up about.
Tipi Walter
03-13-2017, 23:53
I don't care if TP has a 150# pack and has to dig a 4' deep hole to put it one. I just wish he would shut up about.
But you have nothing to offer on gait characteristics or developing a hiking cadence??
Wow....
I expect this type of banter in my tactical groups, but not here.
To you UL guys: UL isn't the be all to end all. It works for places like the AT, but it doesn't work for elk hunting in the Colorado wilderness. When I first started trolling this group about a year ago, I got put off and stayed away for a while because so many people tried to tell me how wrong I am for my 60 lb ruck. This whole "fat shaming" with your pack weight doesn't exactly make people feel good about joining the community.
TW, Hike your hike, let them hike theirs. There's nothing wrong with adapting to new technology to make the journey a bit easier. I'm slowly getting there, maybe by next year I'll be down to 55 lbs instead of 60. But then I'll find something new to throw into the pack in addition to everything else and I'll be back up to 65. Se la vie.
Go back and read this thread. The very first mention of UL was by YOU then Tipi just went off on his usual bad-mouthing of UL and LD hiking in general. I couldn't give a rats behind about your pack weight, how many elk you have in your pack and how many "bag nights" it takes you to eat the said elk or how big the resulting cat holes are to end to process.
I'm un-subscribing from 5his thread.
Traveler
03-14-2017, 08:28
I don't care if TP has a 150# pack and has to dig a 4' deep hole to put it one. I just wish he would shut up about.
Like all of us, Tipi has a perspective. That perspective is, more or less, seen a de facto counterbalance to the UL community perspective. His perspective, much like those with different perspective is not wrong, nor right, it just is. I certainly don't agree with all that Tipi says or does, but I don't agree with those on the edges of the UL envelope either.
As many people find when when subjective points of view are discussed I find I can learn far more from those I don't necessarily agree with with than those I do.
Like all of us, Tipi has a perspective. That perspective is, more or less, seen a de facto counterbalance to the UL community perspective. His perspective, much like those with different perspective is not wrong, nor right, it just is. I certainly don't agree with all that Tipi says or does, but I don't agree with those on the edges of the UL envelope either.
As many people find when when subjective points of view are discussed I find I can learn far more from those I don't necessarily agree with with than those I do.
I could agree more about valuing a different perspective, I view Tipi style as polar opposite mine. I love reading about his extended trips and his alternative perspective on issues like safety. BUT, there are threads where this adds value and there are threads, like this one where his anti-UL rants have NOTHING to do with the thread.
Dogwood, thank you for this thread. Sorry I contributed to taking it off track.
illabelle
03-14-2017, 08:48
As many people find when when subjective points of view are discussed I find I can learn far more from those I don't necessarily agree with with than those I do.
^Wisdom...
ScareBear
03-14-2017, 08:49
I could agree more about valuing a different perspective, I view Tipi style as polar opposite mine. I love reading about his extended trips and his alternative perspective on issues like safety. BUT, there are threads where this adds value and there are threads, like this one where his anti-UL rants have NOTHING to do with the thread.
Dogwood, thank you for this thread. Sorry I contributed to taking it off track.
A Dogwood thread hijacked by Tipi and Malto.
You dudes owe me yet another irony meter...this one just exploded...
And, I get called out for hijacking threads? :confused: Into yet another debate of UL merits? again and again....
To Kookork: THX Kookork for the kind words.
You recognized the intention of why the thread was started:
"Most LD hikers eventually ( most is optimistic word but WTH) find the way to hike efficiently but it sometimes comes after they have hurt or traumatized their joints( knee,ankle,back,hip ) in various degrees. If there is a course or DVD that can teach them before they have paid the price with their body and muscles, it well worth the try. It is less money spent than just one visit to an MD and it is a life long lesson.
To Rafe: ThX for considering my comments in context. You also assimilated the info into how you have personally developed.
Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 10:30
IMO, the most important factor in injury prevention, appropriate gait, and body alignment is core strength. The core isn't just for stability, it generates and transfers power. One might think that cycling, running, and walking is all about leg strength but it's not. You must first generate the power in your core. It's a very different mindset and requires practice to focus on your torso, and not on your legs, especially when cycling.
There's more to it than, "just go out and find your gait". Have you ever watched someone run who has really bad form? They're doing what feels right but it's oh so wrong. Training your muscles to walk, run, cycle, swim, etc. when it's wrong eventually leads to injury and fatigue. Muscle memory is an odd thing.
la.lindsey
03-14-2017, 10:32
So, I did a section this weekend and increased my mileage back to what used to be normal for me. I haven't done a 20 mile day since December or so, and I could tell I'd lost some muscle and cardiovascular conditioning, but worse than that, two days later I've still got pain in my foot (one that was previously injured).
I felt myself getting a little sloppy on downhills and towards the end of the day as my muscles got tired, but besides just hiking more or getting in better shape again, how do you get this more efficient gait?
It seems like, from other posts, I'd have to adjust my natural stride, which is rather long, and that seems...counterintuitive.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't know how one goes about "learning" to walk. I suppose the way we learn most things: by doing it, making mistakes, and correcting our mistakes.
Our bodies don't always cooperate. A few years ago I had a medical episode that whacked my sense of balance, permanently. I used to have exceptionally good balance, now it's just OK. In any case, it's made the hiking poles that much more important than they'd been before.
My father in law was a proud old phart who refused to acknowledge his deteriorating body. He suffered a fall outside his apartment in NYC one winter day. No broken bones but he'd been out cold for a while with a concussion. It nearly did him in. I'd been after him to use a cane or hiking poles to help him walk safely, but he wouldn't hear of it.
Well said Traffic Jam.
"There's more to it than, "just go out and find your gait". Have you ever watched someone run who has really bad form? They're doing what feels right but it's oh so wrong. Training your muscles to walk, run, cycle, swim, etc. when it's wrong eventually leads to injury and fatigue."
This ties into what Trallium, Malto, Recalc, Handlebar, Skater, Kookork and Rafe acknowledged. ;)
Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 10:49
So, I did a section this weekend and increased my mileage back to what used to be normal for me. I haven't done a 20 mile day since December or so, and I could tell I'd lost some muscle and cardiovascular conditioning, but worse than that, two days later I've still got pain in my foot (one that was previously injured).
I felt myself getting a little sloppy on downhills and towards the end of the day as my muscles got tired, but besides just hiking more or getting in better shape again, how do you get this more efficient gait?
It seems like, from other posts, I'd have to adjust my natural stride, which is rather long, and that seems...counterintuitive.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you're interested, there's tons of articles online about longer vs shorter strides and the biomechanics behind it.
Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 10:50
Well said Traffic Jam.
"There's more to it than, "just go out and find your gait". Have you ever watched someone run who has really bad form? They're doing what feels right but it's oh so wrong. Training your muscles to walk, run, cycle, swim, etc. when it's wrong eventually leads to injury and fatigue."
This ties into what Trallium, Malto, Recalc, Handlebar, Skater, Kookork and Rafe acknowledged. ;)
Oops, I'm not reading all the posts again. ;)
I don't know how one goes about "learning" to walk. I suppose the way we learn most things: by doing it, making mistakes, and correcting our mistakes..
As Traffic Jam said make oneself more aware of better form, how to hike more efficiently, and with a greater awareness. Watch and mimic people with good walking running form or, as Koorkork said, be open to being better not thinking we know it all about backpacking or walking.
Watching folks in their 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's on trails with efficiency caused by good mechanics with a wider awareness of their body/mind coordinated movements is a gift of knowledge and wisdom we all can learn to appreciate.
I'm getting you a speed reading and memory course TJ for your B Day. ;)
Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 11:02
I don't know how one goes about "learning" to walk. I suppose the way we learn most things: by doing it, making mistakes, and correcting our mistakes.
Yep. Hopefully the "mistake" isn't a debilitating injury.
Muscle memory fascinates me. I've been teaching myself to play the fiddle and I'm pretty sure my muscles are getting used to doing it all wrong. So, cue the instructor, have my first lesson today.
Can't you apply this to physical fitness? Isn't it why we have coaches, physical therapists, personal trainers (music teachers)?
Enough philosophical musing, time to sew a new food bag. :)
Can't you apply this to physical fitness? Isn't it why we have coaches, physical therapists, personal trainers (music teachers)?
. :)
It is similar to what horse trainers do in dressage and reining. The horse can make all the moves just fine on its own, but add 200 pounds of rider and gear on top and they need to be taught how to move fluid and with what looks like very little effort.
Traillium
03-14-2017, 12:36
I, too, love and learn the different perspectives — but not the degeneration into caterwauling.
Let's all get out and walk our own walk. I hear it's a good way to chill out …
If you're interested, there's tons of articles online about longer vs shorter strides and the biomechanics behind it.
Well I'm beginning to think that there is something to this. I would be interested if you can point me in the right direction.
I've always thought I had a "good stride". I'm average height, yet I tend to be slower than most hikers my size, and I've always wondered why.
Thanks Dogwood for addressing this subject.
johnspenn
03-14-2017, 15:05
I am also just now learning about the effect stride length and mechanics play in hiking more quickly and efficiently. I used to be a "longer stride is better" guy, learned that in the USMC, but it is certainly mistaken. I hiked with forum member u.w. recently and he began to show me the light.
I have been working on shortening my stride and my pace has quickened considerably, plus I can maintain a faster pace for a longer distance.
Going to check some of the links offered thus far. If anyone has any more favorites related to or about hiking mechanics please post them!
Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 19:49
Well I'm beginning to think that there is something to this. I would be interested if you can point me in the right direction.
I've always thought I had a "good stride". I'm average height, yet I tend to be slower than most hikers my size, and I've always wondered why.
Thanks Dogwood for addressing this subject.
Here are a few links, my apologies if they've already been posted. :)
http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-12286/are-you-walking-all-wrong-heres-what-you-should-be-doing.html
http://www.runnersworld.com/peak-performance/aug-24-new-study-reports-that-shorter-strides-can-have-many-benefits
la.lindsey
03-14-2017, 20:07
This certainly seems interesting. Then it about hyperextending with long strides...yeah, you've got me there. I hyperextend while standing, and it's something I try to correct in the gym.
Is that all it takes to be a super-cool, ultra-efficient hiker though? Short strides? Seems too easy, must be a trap.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If short stride were the trick I'd be Flyin' Brian Robinson.
Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 21:37
This certainly seems interesting. Then it about hyperextending with long strides...yeah, you've got me there. I hyperextend while standing, and it's something I try to correct in the gym.
Is that all it takes to be a super-cool, ultra-efficient hiker though? Short strides? Seems too easy, must be a trap.
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Of course that's not all there is to it. There's stuff like vo2 max, lactate threshold, mental fortitude, and nutrition... but I thought we were talking about movement. :)
ScareBear
03-14-2017, 21:42
Of course that's not all there is to it. There's stuff like vo2 max, lactate threshold, mental fortitude, and nutrition... but I thought we were talking about movement. :)
Wait. So...I lengthen my stride on downhills to take advantage of gravity. I shorten my stride on uphills to conserve my quads, hammys and glutes and produce more power...like a granny gear. I guess I've been doing it all wrong???
:datz
Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 21:58
Wait. So...I lengthen my stride on downhills to take advantage of gravity. I shorten my stride on uphills to conserve my quads, hammys and glutes and produce more power...like a granny gear. I guess I've been doing it all wrong???
:datz
You're in good company. ;)
Seriously, just try it. And if you really want to go fast, put away the hiking poles and swing your arms faster...that makes your feet move quicker. I expect you to report back your findings.
la.lindsey
03-14-2017, 22:14
Ok now I'm confused though, because a long stride on downhills was what got me into this (foot hurting) mess. A longer stride on a downhill, with added gravity, seems like it would directly contradict all the supposed benefits of a shorter stride.
And we are just talking about movement, so let's not get cute about it.
I am seriously trying to learn something here but damn, y'all are making it hard.
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Traffic Jam
03-14-2017, 22:56
Ok now I'm confused though, because a long stride on downhills was what got me into this (foot hurting) mess. A longer stride on a downhill, with added gravity, seems like it would directly contradict all the supposed benefits of a shorter stride.
And we are just talking about movement, so let's not get cute about it.
I am seriously trying to learn something here but damn, y'all are making it hard.
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I'm sorry you are confused. I understood scarebears post to mean that's what he currently does. I never recommended a longer stride on downhills. And I wasn't "being cute", but responding to what you wrote..."Is that all it takes to be a super-cool, ultra-efficient hiker though? Short strides? Seems too easy, must be a trap".
Tipi Walter
03-14-2017, 23:02
Ok now I'm confused though, because a long stride on downhills was what got me into this (foot hurting) mess. A longer stride on a downhill, with added gravity, seems like it would directly contradict all the supposed benefits of a shorter stride.
And we are just talking about movement, so let's not get cute about it.
I am seriously trying to learn something here but damn, y'all are making it hard.
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Go backpack for a couple thousand miles. Study the way you go downhill without reading any of this constant chatter. Then get back with us and tell us what works for you.
Personally, for me, long downhill strides are dangerous---for me---as I tend to roll my ankles or slip on an acorn with a outstretched leg or just flat-out fall. As mentioned, tough downhills are more difficult than tough uphills---gravity is your enemy when you fall (as la.lindsey mentions), and on most hiking trails the worst falls happen on downhills. Momentum, weight, lack of focus etc.
la.lindsey
03-15-2017, 00:42
Go backpack for a couple thousand miles. Study the way you go downhill without reading any of this constant chatter. Then get back with us and tell us what works for you.
Personally, for me, long downhill strides are dangerous---for me---as I tend to roll my ankles or slip on an acorn with a outstretched leg or just flat-out fall. As mentioned, tough downhills are more difficult than tough uphills---gravity is your enemy when you fall (as la.lindsey mentions), and on most hiking trails the worst falls happen on downhills. Momentum, weight, lack of focus etc.
Yeah, I've done a thousand miles or so. I tend towards long strides, but I can see the wisdom in shorter strides. It *seems* as though there was a failure to communicate above, and everyone was recommending shorter strides all around, but that's not what I read.
I was interested in this improving technique (am I taking crazy pills? Is that not what this thread was about?) because I screwed up my foot on a section this weekend, so I thought, "sure, learn from people who have hiked more than you!" But if it's just shorter strides and that's all there is to a more efficient hiking gait, then why is this thread so long and why did I have to read so many articles?
I'm not angry or anything, I'm just a little baffled and confused. I just want to learn!
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ScareBear
03-15-2017, 04:18
OK, so over the years what has worked for me is:
When I can safely do so on the downhill, I do lengthen my stride and let gravity do the work. This is a direct result of 45 years of downhill skiing. Don't fight the mountain and gravity, go with the flow. Be smooth, yet precise. I use my poles as I do on a mogul or tight downhill run, setting up the next foot plant and direction adjustment. I also find that this actually lessens the shock to my knees. Of course, you can't do this on every downhill, some are a bit technical. I routinely outpace all my hiking partners on the downhills. My knees never seem to suffer for it...YMMV
On the uphill, over the years I have learned to shorten my stride and slow my motion. Kinda like putting the farm truck in granny gear. I try to time my pole plants precisely with my foot plants and use my thigh muscles to do the heavy lifting, not my feet or calves. I also try to control my pace and my breathing. If I am unable to ascend and breathe through my nose, I am overexerting. Panting is, for me, not a good sign for long distance endurance... Breathing through the nose is a good way to set pace, for me. Also, being able to talk and ascend is a good sign you are not overexerting. The thing about overexertion is lactate build up. That is what kills your long distance day. Moving at a pace that allows your body to eliminate the lactate/lactic acid as you move is efficiency in movement. It also helps speed recovery.
On the flats, I carry a pole in each hand, with the pole balanced in the hand. I lengthen my stride to maximum and start reeling off the miles. I know, it's more efficient to do the crazy race runner duck walk/waddle, but the long strides seem to work for me....of course, YMMV!!!!
TX Aggie
03-15-2017, 08:17
Yeah, I've done a thousand miles or so. I tend towards long strides, but I can see the wisdom in shorter strides. It *seems* as though there was a failure to communicate above, and everyone was recommending shorter strides all around, but that's not what I read.
I was interested in this improving technique (am I taking crazy pills? Is that not what this thread was about?) because I screwed up my foot on a section this weekend, so I thought, "sure, learn from people who have hiked more than you!" But if it's just shorter strides and that's all there is to a more efficient hiking gait, then why is this thread so long and why did I have to read so many articles?
I'm not angry or anything, I'm just a little baffled and confused. I just want to learn!
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Many instructors/experts tell people to shorten their strides because it's easy to understand and sets up the rest of the movement. The overall goal is to make your stride more compact so that your center of gravity shifts less. Less CG shift means less energy consumed in countering the shift, leaving more energy to propel you forward.
Someone earlier mentioned trail running, and I agree the mechanics are very similar.
A secondary benefit of shorter strides, and this is where the trail running part fits in, is it helps you land more on the center of your foot vs the heel. When you extend your stride and land with a heavy heel first, you are doing 2 things:
- you are much more likely to have a straight vs bent knee which combined with your foot being well in front of your CG actually causes you to slow down slightly with each step, and puts more pressure and stress on your knees.
- you end up "pulling" yourself forward instead of "pushing" yourself forward.
So, by taking a shorter stride:
-you typically land farther forward on your foot. Not necessarily on your toes as many try to describe it, just not directly on the back of your heel.
-Your legs are typically more bent, with slight angles at your hips, knees and ankles. These angles naturally help better absorb shock, and it's been discovered helps preload your tendons which then release the energy as you push off. When heel striking, your Achilles doesn't start to load up until near the end of your stride.
- you end up "pushing" since more of you foot movement is below or behind your CG. This pushing engages your glutes as opposed to your hamstrings, and your glutes are much more powerful (you can do heavier weight with squats than leg curls).
A little drawn out, but that's the basics, at least from what I've learned from completely revamping my walking and running strides over the past 7 or 8 years. I used to think taking long strides made me more efficient a, especially since I'm a not on the taller side. But since I've changed, the biggest thing I've noticed was how much longer my shoes last now because I'm not wearing down the heel in 3 months.
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Tipi Walter
03-15-2017, 09:39
When you extend your stride and land with a heavy heel first, you are doing 2 things:
- you are much more likely to have a straight vs bent knee which combined with your foot being well in front of your CG actually causes you to slow down slightly with each step, and puts more pressure and stress on your knees.
- you end up "pulling" yourself forward instead of "pushing" yourself forward.
You're right and gets me to thinking---Landing on the heel focuses your weight on a single point---BAD NEWS when you hit an acorn or a muddy patch. You put into words what I was saying about long strides going downhill---just didn't analyze it enough to see how in fact the heel does get all the action.
Staying "flat footed" with most of the boot surface on the ground really helps in stability. Full boot placement helps on tough uphills (legs are pistons---granny gear)---and the same applies on tough downhills. The more boot surface on the ground the better the traction and stability---otherwise we'd all be wearing high heels with vibram soles.
la.lindsey
03-15-2017, 10:17
Ok, this all makes sense to me. I had someone mention the downhill skiing thing to me once- I can definitely see that.
So, I think there are likely some takeaways here:
1. For women, the first step is likely widening the base. This is something I have to consciously do when I'm out of habit of bigger miles, and likely contributed to some sloppy hiking this weekend. Women tend to walk with a narrow base (does this make sense? I keep my legs together when I walk in my normal life; doesn't work well on the trail).
2. Shorter strides in general keep CoG localized and minimize energy loss. Also puts landing and weight on center of foot; better weight distribution. Avoids hyperextending knees.
3. Focusing on shorter, more powerful and more frequent steps on ascents is better than doing "two at a time" stairs.
4. On downhills, control descent with small shifts of CoG.
This sound like reasonable takeaways to apply, generally?
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Since this is in the General forum and not the Speed Hiking forum, I can poo-poo the need for "backpacking efficiency" or "backpacking achievements" or even calling backpacking a sport.
Skurka (who you mention) on his blog calls himself an "endurance athlete"---something totally irrelevant to a majority of backpackers and hikers. Go here for the link to this article "What Inspires You to Backpack? The Hiking, the Camping, or Both?" http://andrewskurka.com/2012/what-inspires-you-to-backpack/ (http://andrewskurka.com/2012/what-inspires-you-to-backpack/)
Here's where his head is at---
"I enjoy passing through extensive landscapes in relatively short periods of time . . ."
ENDURANCE ATHLETE
As mentioned, he says he's an endurance athlete so of course his "ultimate hiking" will be about this style of backpacking. Newbs and the UL community read this stuff and study his adventures and eat it up like candy and want to overdose on this fast and light drug. Many backpackers now want to be like him and they not only identify themselves as ULers or SULers but also as high mileage types, hypnotized by the fast and light "hysteria".
He also states---
"I pack light so that I can hike faster . . ."
Here's another strange quote:
"I travel efficiently so that I can hike more, to make 'constant forward progress."
But what is constant forward progress? Maybe it's spending 3 zero days stuck in a tent during a blizzard. Who can define "progress"?
He also states---
"The goal is to maximize distance---not for the superficial purpose of just covering miles, but rather for the rich rewards of experiencing landscapes (at a blazing fast 3mph I should add)".
Beware the keywords here: "Rich rewards", "experiencing landscapes", "blazing fast". A guy could move 2 miles a day and experience as much or more landscape than Skurka. There is no way to define the rich rewards coming from experiencing landscapes except when used as keywords to justify fast hiking (blazing fast he should add) and very light gear. A person could get as rich or richer rewards from experiencing a single landscape and do so while moving slowly with heavy gear.
I see no benefit in over-analyzing our outdoor experience. If you have a good heart and legs and functioning lungs---go out with a pack and start hiking and camping. Go two miles a day, go thirty---it doesn't matter in the least.
I think I've finally found my all-time favourite response. Thank you Tipi for your wisdom, sincerely.
TX Aggie
03-15-2017, 10:31
Ok, this all makes sense to me. I had someone mention the downhill skiing thing to me once- I can definitely see that.
So, I think there are likely some takeaways here:
1. For women, the first step is likely widening the base. This is something I have to consciously do when I'm out of habit of bigger miles, and likely contributed to some sloppy hiking this weekend. Women tend to walk with a narrow base (does this make sense? I keep my legs together when I walk in my normal life; doesn't work well on the trail).
2. Shorter strides in general keep CoG localized and minimize energy loss. Also puts landing and weight on center of foot; better weight distribution. Avoids hyperextending knees.
3. Focusing on shorter, more powerful and more frequent steps on ascents is better than doing "two at a time" stairs.
4. On downhills, control descent with small shifts of CoG.
This sound like reasonable takeaways to apply, generally?
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Beautiful.
I would only argue a small amount on your first point about widening your base. A wider than needed base will cause you to sway side to side, reducing forward momentum. Terrain and natural stance may dictate base width more than anything. Body composition But on flat, smooth terrain, less than shoulder width would be ideal for most people.
Traillium
03-15-2017, 12:45
Many instructors/experts tell people to shorten their strides because it's easy to understand and sets up the rest of the movement. The overall goal is to make your stride more compact so that your center of gravity shifts less. Less CG shift means less energy consumed in countering the shift, leaving more energy to propel you forward.
Someone earlier mentioned trail running, and I agree the mechanics are very similar.
A secondary benefit of shorter strides, and this is where the trail running part fits in, is it helps you land more on the center of your foot vs the heel. When you extend your stride and land with a heavy heel first, you are doing 2 things:
- you are much more likely to have a straight vs bent knee which combined with your foot being well in front of your CG actually causes you to slow down slightly with each step, and puts more pressure and stress on your knees.
- you end up "pulling" yourself forward instead of "pushing" yourself forward.
So, by taking a shorter stride:
-you typically land farther forward on your foot. Not necessarily on your toes as many try to describe it, just not directly on the back of your heel.
-Your legs are typically more bent, with slight angles at your hips, knees and ankles. These angles naturally help better absorb shock, and it's been discovered helps preload your tendons which then release the energy as you push off. When heel striking, your Achilles doesn't start to load up until near the end of your stride.
- you end up "pushing" since more of you foot movement is below or behind your CG. This pushing engages your glutes as opposed to your hamstrings, and your glutes are much more powerful (you can do heavier weight with squats than leg curls).
A little drawn out, but that's the basics, at least from what I've learned from completely revamping my walking and running strides over the past 7 or 8 years. I used to think taking long strides made me more efficient a, especially since I'm a not on the taller side. But since I've changed, the biggest thing I've noticed was how much longer my shoes last now because I'm not wearing down the heel in 3 months.
Well-explained from my point of view, TX Aggie!
I'd add several pointers.
• When on a flat even surface, become aware of how little head-bobbing you can do. Minimize that wasteful vertical displacement by rolling your hips slightly up and down.
• Note that what you really want is to roll your hips forward and back (more than up and down), sideways twisting your spine so as to move your front leg forward. Your hips should be moving in circles. This is really where you engage your core. Feel your spine twisting and your core powering you forward.
• I try to almost never straighten my legs, always keeping a shock-absorbing bend at the knees. This also preloads the various tendons and ligaments so as to return energy upon release.
• I do not push off with my toes. As soon as my trailing heel lifts, I stop applying backwards push and I start recovering that leg forward. I have high arches, and my feet do not tolerate the drastic shifts required by hitting the ground out front straight-legged, nor the backward extension that comes from trying to lengthen my stride in that manner.
• Perhaps the most important technique is to actively keep my pelvis forward — and level. I fall forward onto my leading leg which lands almost under me. Someone earlier posted a link to Chi-Running. That guy describes this very very clearly. You can chose to disregard his linkages to Chinese explanations. His physics rings very true to my body.
• This is what I have done for race-walking. (I was almost down to a five hour marathon.) I have applied it to the slow pace of backpacking distances. It all still applies.
• The old coureurs du bois and the voyageurs learned from the indigenous folks about 'dog-trotting' even under punishing loads that would make Tipi wince. I had a lot of trouble getting that feel — until I tried race-walking along a portage with a canoe on top of me. I flowed along the trail! It was a marvelous feeling!
rocketsocks
03-15-2017, 12:59
I have a very short gait, I got mall walking old ladys out pacing me and it makes them smile, so I see no reason to change. That said, a short gait for me is most efficient.
Lindsey, DO NOT do long strides downhill as you descend steeply or on deep riser steps. This has the consequence of shocking your body Much better to take smaller mindfully placed steps and break up the riser heights into two or more movements. You'll get better traction with less likelyhood of a slip, trip, and fall. This is in line with lower impact technique especially for joints on steep ascents. It also works for ascents. Consider stretching out you stride on flatter terrain with lower wt hauls IF the conditions and your body allow. This conserves energy as well by maximizing your gain(output) for the input.
Going all out all the time is a good way to hurt yourself or negatively impact endurance. Backpacking is an endurance activity/sport/etc.
LongBlaze2019
03-15-2017, 13:02
Thanks for the categories. Expletives are vital when hoisting an 80 lb pack. Here is my demonstration of Cored-Like-An-Apple Walking, or attempting to do so---These pics come free of charge---
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-42bTMgb/0/L/TRIP%20121%20020-L.jpg
Standing upright and confident by the massive engorged (in this case) 90 lb pack---at the beginning of a trip. Note viking/king arthur-like pose.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-Gkm7Skj/0/L/TRIP%20121%20018-L.jpg
First attempt at lifting the pack to place on the back.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-qPsSXLq/0/L/TRIP%20121%20019-L.jpg
Note howling expletives (not audible in picture). Pack has risen almost 18 inches and shows progress.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/MSR-Fury-Ten-Tipi-Walter/i-42PDWQV/0/L/TRIP%20121%20026-L.jpg
The all important butt clench lift off before total collapse.
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la.lindsey
03-15-2017, 13:07
• I do not push off with my toes. As soon as my trailing heel lifts, I stop applying backwards push and I start recovering that leg forward. I have high arches, and my feet do not tolerate the drastic shifts required by hitting the ground out front straight-legged, nor the backward extension that comes from trying to lengthen my stride in that manner.
• Perhaps the most important technique is to actively keep my pelvis forward — and level. I fall forward onto my leading leg which lands almost under me. Someone earlier posted a link to Chi-Running. That guy describes this very very clearly. You can chose to disregard his linkages to Chinese explanations. His physics rings very true to my body.
Aha! I think your post really connected the dots for me on some things, these two points in particular. Thanks, all! Appreciate the clarification, and look forward to walking like an idiot to school until I get on the trail again.
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From my perspective too TX Aggie did a good job of defining why the shorter stride is perhaps more appropriate at more times than not than a much longer stride. The shorter stride facilitates better momentum exchange(going with the flow of one's body) between strides too which conserves energy and gains efficiency. Ever stop quickly when going fast especially with a heavy load? It's like locking up the brakes in a loaded semi.
Tipi Walter
03-15-2017, 15:40
Ever stop quickly when going fast especially with a heavy load? It's like locking up the brakes in a loaded semi.
I can't stop quickly with my oversized load. There's the smell of burning vibram rubber. In fact, I'm trying to have all downhill trails outfitted with Runaway Backpacker Ramps like this but smaller---
http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/10000/velka/1453-1274499544MaZN.jpg
rocketsocks
03-15-2017, 15:58
I can't stop quickly with my oversized load. There's the smell of burning vibram rubber. In fact, I'm trying to have all downhill trails outfitted with Runaway Backpacker Ramps like this but smaller---
http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/pictures/10000/velka/1453-1274499544MaZN.jpgExcelent idea! We could put a few "I got you babe" trees at the very end for a last ditch effort.
Tipi Walter
03-15-2017, 16:37
Excelent idea! We could put a few "I got you babe" trees at the very end for a last ditch effort.
Ha ha, got the Bono reference.
rocketsocks
03-15-2017, 17:16
Ha ha, got the Bono reference.Sonny was a trip! :D
ScareBear
03-15-2017, 17:48
Sonny was a trip! :D
What did the tree say after Sonny hit it?
I got you, babe....
ScareBear
03-15-2017, 17:49
But, back to the downhill stride...so...I am doing it wrong with lengthening my stride to use gravity to my advantage?
TX Aggie
03-15-2017, 19:46
But, back to the downhill stride...so...I am doing it wrong with lengthening my stride to use gravity to my advantage?
You're potentially causing more stress on your joints. Honestly it just depends on the terrain, but generally if you can take 2 medium steps instead of 1 big one, 2 is better.
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See they know something about this in College Station. :)
TX Aggie
03-15-2017, 21:37
See they know something about this in College Station. :)
Every now and then I get lucky.
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Everybody's talkin bout a new way of walkin do ya wanna lose your mind...
rocketsocks
03-15-2017, 22:38
Everybody's talkin bout a new way of walkin do ya wanna lose your mind...baby let your mind roll on!