View Full Version : MLD Superlight Bivy Floor Material
fastfoxengineering
03-19-2017, 16:48
Considering purchasing an MLD superlight bivy.
Money aside, I'm having a difficult time choosing which material to have the floor made out of.
I know both the cuben and silnylon work well. I know the cuben is a little lighter.
I'm under the assumption that the .75oz cuben will not give as much service life as the silnylon. Is this safe to assume?
I know that the cuben is easier to repair in the field, I carry some repair tape for my tarp.
I've noticed less condensation with my cuben products over my silnylon products. Is this applicable to the floor of a bivy?
The biggest thing keeping me from choosing the cuben over the silnylon is the expected life of the bivy. I know cuben is more prone to damage from abrasion. But only getting a hundred nights or so out of the bivy would be disappointing. I know some people have cuben tents with thousands of miles and hundreds of nights on them. But I'm talking about a floor made of .75oz cuben. I wonder why MLD uses the .75 for floors and Zpacks uses the 1.0.
What advantages does the cuben offer over the silnylon floor in respect to being the floor of a bivy? A wee bit lighter is all I can tell at the cost of durability.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
sethd513
03-19-2017, 18:04
I can't shed any light on this. This is the same issue I had with the borah event bivy that I ordered. My duplex floor is 1.0 and in my head I was wondering how long the .74 will hold up. Regardless I use a ground sheet with all my tents so I will use something with the bivy to extend the life.
I'm much happier knowing that the floor is waterproof then Having to worry about water weeping in. I don't like how my silnylon tarp is in heavy rain vs my duplex.
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fastfoxengineering
03-19-2017, 18:14
I think the fact that zpacks uses 1.0 for the floors has me concerned. They're tents seem to hold up pretty well. Yet they use the lighter .51 for their tarps. On the other hand all the other cottage shops seem to prefer the heavier .74 for their tarps but don't increase the thickness of their floors.
I've read a few people with thousands of miles on their zpacks tents. The floor help up admirably.
I'm sure it holds up, but realistically it seems like it will be worn out after a thru hike for example.
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sethd513
03-19-2017, 19:04
I'll either use my Cuban ground sheet or some cut down .7 or 1.0 mil plastic for ground cloth. I'd go Cuban. No material will last forever.
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I've own bivies with both floor types. I've had no problems with either. I have an old (2009ish) silnylon that the floor is still fine after more than 3000 miles. My cuben fiber floor bivy is from 2014 with about 1200 miles on it and its fine. If you camp on uneven ground, the silnylon floor will have your pad (if inside) sliding downhill more than cuben will. Cuben will be lighter but cost more. Is that worth it to you? If you are worried about damage to the floor, use a ground sheet underneath. A polycro sheet (such as GG sells but you can purchase from a home depot type place) weighs almost nothing.
fastfoxengineering
03-19-2017, 19:55
I've own bivies with both floor types. I've had no problems with either. I have an old (2009ish) silnylon that the floor is still fine after more than 3000 miles. My cuben fiber floor bivy is from 2014 with about 1200 miles on it and its fine. If you camp on uneven ground, the silnylon floor will have your pad (if inside) sliding downhill more than cuben will. Cuben will be lighter but cost more. Is that worth it to you? If you are worried about damage to the floor, use a ground sheet underneath. A polycro sheet (such as GG sells but you can purchase from a home depot type place) weighs almost nothing.
As someone with experience using both. Do you prefer one over the other? Have you made any conclusions on the pros and cons of each material as the floor material for a bivy?
Of course, I like the weight savings of cuben and don't mind spending the extra $50. I'm questioning whether or not its advantages outweigh any negatives specifically as floor material. Thank you
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Considering purchasing an MLD superlight bivy.
Money aside, I'm having a difficult time choosing which material to have the floor made out of.
I know both the cuben and silnylon work well. I know the cuben is a little lighter.
The .75 Cuben bottom version is for gear weenies as far as I'm concerned. It saved me 1.5 oz.:D
I'm under the assumption that the .75oz cuben will not give as much service life as the silnylon. Is this safe to assume?
I'd say you are correct.
I know that the cuben is easier to repair in the field, I carry some repair tape for my tarp.
I'm not of the opinion silny or cf are hard to repair in the field.
Even after extensive use I have not had durability issues in any of my MPD bivy usage. However, as Miner said I too will throw a 1.5 or .7 mil polycro/window sheet down if I've opted for either the cuben fiber bottom bivies in conditions I think necessary.
I've noticed less condensation with my cuben products over my silnylon products. Is this applicable to the floor of a bivy?
As said I'm apt to throw down a polycro sheet under my bivies which might have some affect but none that I've noticed.
The biggest thing keeping me from choosing the cuben over the silnylon is the expected life of the bivy. I know cuben is more prone to damage from abrasion. But only getting a hundred nights or so out of the bivy would be disappointing. I know some people have cuben tents with thousands of miles and hundreds of nights on them. But I'm talking about a floor made of .75oz cuben. I wonder why MLD uses the .75 for floors and Zpacks uses the 1.0.
I've never used a Zpacks bivy so can't relate personal experience. I've seen then in use though. I do like ZP's high bath wall 1.0 oz CF floor design. I've been so happy with MLD bivies so... I'm of the opinion MLD's WR top fabric in their Superlight bivy is more WR than ZP's Ventum top fabric bivy or the same Ventum used in their sleeping bags. Might note that since ZP no longer offers the option of hydrophobic high FP down.
What advantages does the cuben offer over the silnylon floor in respect to being the floor of a bivy? A wee bit lighter is all I can tell at the cost of durability.
As Miner noted cuben fiber slides around less than many types of silny, polycro, Tyvek, etc when used as a ground sheet.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
I've own bivies with both floor types. I've had no problems with either. I have an old (2009ish) silnylon that the floor is still fine after more than 3000 miles. My cuben fiber floor bivy is from 2014 with about 1200 miles on it and its fine. If you camp on uneven ground, the silnylon floor will have your pad (if inside) sliding downhill more than cuben will. Cuben will be lighter but cost more. Is that worth it to you? If you are worried about damage to the floor, use a ground sheet underneath. A polycro sheet (such as GG sells but you can purchase from a home depot type place) weighs almost nothing.
Same here. I've had 4 MLD bivies. All four except the FKT cuben bottom eVent top have been used extensively. One of my MLD Superlight silny floor Momentum 50 top fabric bivies was stolen. Currently own a MLD Superlight Pro silny floor w/ MLD Mountain 10D 3x DWR top fabric in lg, .75 CF bottom in lg w/ same top fabric, and a FKT Soul Cuben bottom eVent top bivy in lg.
To answer the question you posed to Miner I prefer the .75 bottom bivy. BUT, that's being an ULer sometimes SULer for years so I understand the limitations of such gear and am willing to apply a little extra TLC to make it work. I'm glad Miner brought up the less slippery nature of CF too. Since I'm accustomed to bivying in some very unusual tight places that may have a slight slope I do like the CF bottom.
fastfoxengineering
03-19-2017, 20:09
May I ask why you have the same bivy but got both floor materials? Was it just a means to save some weight? If you could only have one. Would you rather your silnylon or your cuben bottom bivy?
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I had the silny floor MLD Superlight first. It was well used with some patches on the top face I burnt holes in. Being a gram weenie this was noticed. Then, the cuben floor versions were offered which actually saved me 2.2 ozs off the patched one. Since I regularly employ bivies on hikes, climbs, and traverses I knew I'd need others sooner rather than later.
The FKT bivy is WP with an eVent top face fabric not merely WR. I will use it alone possibly in rain or snow or with a minimalist sized tarp. The WR bivies I rarely use a lone or with the most gram weeniest sized tarps.
fastfoxengineering
03-19-2017, 20:34
To answer the question you posed to Miner I prefer the .75 bottom bivy. BUT, that's being an ULer sometimes SULer for years so I understand the limitations of such gear and am willing to apply a little extra TLC to make it work. I'm glad Miner brought up the less slippery nature of CF too. Since I'm accustomed to bivying in some very unusual tight places that may have a slight slope I do like the CF bottom.
Im aware of the precautions needed when using this very ultralight gear. I own two .51 cuben tarps. They actually require less gentle handling than I originally imagined. Pretty tough stuff.
I'm leaning towards the mld superlight with full head net and cuben bottom in size large. Any input on the weight of one of those suckers.
I would be pairing this bivy with a cuben 7x9 tarp I currently own.
At first I didn't like the feeling of brand new cuben. When it breaks in, it feels nicer than silnylon imo.
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I prefer the cuben fiber bivy which goes on most of my trips in the last few years. Mainly for gram weenie reasons. I like the lower weight. An ounce here, a fraction of an ounce there does add up to some significant weight when spread across multiple pieces of gear. The only reason I still use the sil-nylon version is it has that half moon face MLD offers which is nicer in really cold weather, but I don't go out much in sub 20's weather much anymore. My cuben fiber bivy has a full mesh top which meets most of my needs better in 3 season backpacking. When it gets colder or the wind blows hard, I stuff my wind jacket above my head to simulate a smaller opening which does work to a certain extent.
If I was to buy a new bivy right now. I'd go with a superlight with a cuben floor and a full head net. I don't have any feedback on the larger size since I'm not above 6', nor do I use a cushy inflatable pad (normally use a foam pad). Longer bivies also effectively require a larger tarp since they are longer. I used a MLD 8' tarp for years, though recently went to 9' one, so bivy length was a concern for me. A cheaper bivy alternative would be Borah's cuben fiber bivy. Its a good value for the money, but MLD's craftsmanship is a step above when looking at the details.
fastfoxengineering
03-19-2017, 22:40
I was just about to ask that. The borah bivy seems like a nice option at the price point.
What does the extra $75 get me from MLD?
I know mld's quality is tier 1. Stitching will be perfect. But functionally, what does the mld offer over borah gears.
Also the mld in cuben is listed at around 6oz and the borah at around 4.5oz. can you enlighten me on why the mld weighs more.
Does the MLD top fabric offer any advantages over the argon in the borah gear.
I know both will be good pieces of kit. Aside from supporting mld and knowing the piece of gear will be crafted too perfection. Does it offer any real advantage over the borah gear. Which I've read is a high quality product with attention to detail.
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Im aware of the precautions needed when using this very ultralight gear. I own two .51 cuben tarps. They actually require less gentle handling than I originally imagined. Pretty tough stuff.
Since bivies might be used alone without a ground sheet I think the CF bottoms can be more prone to abrasion than CF tarps so would question anything less than .75 CF for bottom in a bivy unless willing to sacrifice durability.
I'm leaning towards the mld superlight with full head net and cuben bottom in size large. Any input on the weight of one of those suckers.
Might get .25-.4-.5 oz wt decrease but I'd contact Ron about that. I have a half moon net WR bivies in the face area since 1) I'm wanting to go to a lighter wt sleeping bag/quilt/silk liner with a WR bivy so rely on boost in warmth to lower shelter/sleep system overall wt 2) tend to use a bivy during shoulder seasons or supplement my shelter/sleep system in cooler wetter or icy/snowy environs 3) am not overly too concerned with condensation using the MLD Superlight bivy in the conditions I do use it and what I pare it with so don't want a full net hood
I would be pairing this bivy with a cuben 7x9 tarp I currently own.
Sounds better from a condensation, bug protection, and maybe a slight wt decreasing perspective. Again, I'm not noticing any great affect of condensation differences between the CF or Pro Silny bottoms.
At first I didn't like the feeling of brand new cuben. When it breaks in, it feels nicer than silnylon imo.
In the light wts particularly CF does soften a bit like, but not as much as, Tyvek after it's washed. Some of this may be due that with all my CF gear I stuff it into a stuff sack rather than fold it or don't use a stuff sack at all and just stuff a CF tarp, bivy, etc into my pack.
I have the Borah bivy dated from 2014. Can't justify replacing it yet, but I would go with MLD superbivy next time as I own their sil-nylon version and can compare the construction. The borah works fine (especially if cost is an issue), but the construction is a bit inferrior. The MLD bivy has a pretty good bathtub construction like floor while the Borah bivy seems more like just 2 pieces of material sewn together and isn't good if you end up in a puddle. Though your campsite selection should have avoided that anyway, so it isn't that much of a big deal. The MLD has straps at all corners which also adds a bit of weight. The weight of my Borah bivy was 4.83oz, not the advertised 4.5oz due to material and manufacturing differences. Everything I've gotten from MLD was been pretty close to the listed weight. But if cost is an issue, I would go with Borah again.
MuddyWaters
03-20-2017, 03:15
Its not like you cant have the floor replaced by mld if need be.......
Repeat after me:
UL gear is not supposed to last forever
UL gear is not supposed to last forever
UL gear is not supposed to last forever...
fastfoxengineering
03-20-2017, 05:54
Muddy Waters,
I'm not expecting UL gear to last forever. However, there have been zpacks tents survive a triple crown. MLD mids with thousands of miles on them showing little wear used in 4 season conditions. I met a guy using an arc blast on the AT that he said he also used on the PCT and CDT. I've read accounts of single pieces of polycryo lasting a thru hike.
My point, with proper care, quality ultralight gear can give great service life. On the other hand, those same pieces of equipment have been shredded in a few months by people who don't treat ul gear with the care it needs.
I have yet to find much information on cuben fiber used as a floor material in a bivy sack. I can draw conclusions based on it used in other applications. If you have any resources, send them my way.
When spending $200+ on a cuben bivy, it'd be nice to know it can go the distance with proper care. Getting 100 nights out of it and it being worn out under normal use would not be worth the 1.5oz weight saving and $100 price increase over the life of the product. Cause for some people, they'd be replacing that piece of kit quite often.
I've never owned anything by MLD. It's tempting. The gram weenie in me really want this thing to come in under 6oz's. The borah gear is tempting to squeeze out an extra ounce. However, I've made that mistake and sometimes an extra ounce of weight can differentiate the overall function of the product by a large margin to the ul thru hiker. Ounces add up, so we research and try to educate ourselves on whether that extra weight is justified.
In conclusion, I think part of my tax refund should support mld and get me my first bivy.
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fastfoxengineering
03-20-2017, 07:20
Just placed an order for an MLD superlight.
Cuben bottom
Left zip
All net hood
Large size
I'll give a long term review in a few years lol...
Looking forward to using this on fast and light trips, motorcycle trips, and future thru hikes.
I really wish I had this bivy when I hiked the LT cause I was a shelter dweller.
Going to the ground over hammocking. I feel an ultralight bivy makes a lot of sense for my style of hiking. I feel it's going to offer a lot of versatility to me as a tarp camper.
Any insight on treating it with permitherin
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Looks like you've made a good choice. I've been using a MLD Soul light Bivy for a few years and haven't had any problems. I do use a poly ground sheet to extend its life.
MuddyWaters
03-20-2017, 08:34
Muddy Waters,
I'm not expecting UL gear to last forever. However, there have been zpacks tents survive a triple crown. MLD mids with thousands of miles on them showing little wear used in 4 season conditions. I met a guy using an arc blast on the AT that he said he also used on the PCT and CDT. I've read accounts of single pieces of polycryo lasting a thru hike.
My point, with proper care, quality ultralight gear can give great service life. On the other hand, those same pieces of equipment have been shredded in a few months by people who don't treat ul gear with the care it needs.
I have yet to find much information on cuben fiber used as a floor material in a bivy sack. I can draw conclusions based on it used in other applications. If you have any resources, send them my way.
When spending $200+ on a cuben bivy, it'd be nice to know it can go the distance with proper care. Getting 100 nights out of it and it being worn out under normal use would not be worth the 1.5oz weight saving and $100 price increase over the life of the product. Cause for some people, they'd be replacing that piece of kit quite often.
I've never owned anything by MLD. It's tempting. The gram weenie in me really want this thing to come in under 6oz's. The borah gear is tempting to squeeze out an extra ounce. However, I've made that mistake and sometimes an extra ounce of weight can differentiate the overall function of the product by a large margin to the ul thru hiker. Ounces add up, so we research and try to educate ourselves on whether that extra weight is justified.
In conclusion, I think part of my tax refund should support mld and get me my first bivy.
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What you just said:
It depends on person and how much care they take.
0.74 is thin for ground use
You can find lots of complaints about it if you search
Lots of leaks, pinholes,
Your best bet..use a groundsheet when need extra protection
Or, use it always
No weight savings really, but more versatility
$200 isnt much money at all today in absolute terms.
fastfoxengineering
03-20-2017, 10:14
I plan on carrying a piece of tyvek or polycryo. I kinda prefer the tyvek over polycryo. Again at a weight penalty. I'm trying to keep my shelter under a pound including stakes and the ground sheet. So far on paper I'm right at 16oz. I feel like I'm the future i could get by with a smaller or cat cut tarp to shave an ounce, maybe and ounce and a half from that. But as of now, I like my 7x9. But I mostly set it up like an a frame. So a cat cut would probably suit me better.
I know people say bivys can suck out east. But I plan on always keeping it in my pack. I feel the tarp and lightweight bivy is a good solution for a do it all shelter from the East to the west coast. Of course, in mild and not winter conditions.
Thanks for your replies
I'm pretty excited about getting a piece of kit from MLD. I am eager to see what everyone is talking about saying their quality is above the rest. I own gear from zpacks, ula, EE quilts, hammock gear, etc.
Maybe I'll post some pics when I get it
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MuddyWaters
03-20-2017, 10:30
Pretend your on a warm, humid/damp drizzling day with mosquitos swarming on edge of swampy area
Still think its a do-it-all shelter?
No such thing unfortunately. Always tradeoffs
But....no one said you can only have one
The borah bivy seems like a nice option at the price point.
What does the extra $75 get me from MLD?
I'm a MLD fan so you'll get a biased answer from me. But, here goes. Ron's worked with CF doing bivies and tarps for quite some time. I really like his standards which hit an UL sweet spot balance for me in terms of wt, performance, function, volume, above avg useful lifespan for UL gear, and sizing(no minimal sizing to shed some grams which often go unnoticed). If I'm seeking CF gear I look first to HMG, MLD, ZP and maybe Locus for mids. The added labor in the way Ron does his seams(NEVER in any MLD tarp or bivy have I had a seam issue or leakage), the heavier costlier Pro silny top w/ 3X DWR, and a few other things in terms of materials and construction combined with the other attributes make me willing to spend more on a MLD bivy.
I know mld's quality is tier 1. Stitching will be perfect. But functionally, what does the mld offer over borah gears.
Also the mld in cuben is listed at around 6oz and the borah at around 4.5oz. can you enlighten me on why the mld weighs more.
Does the MLD top fabric offer any advantages over the argon in the borah gear.
I know both will be good pieces of kit. Aside from supporting mld and knowing the piece of gear will be crafted too perfection. Does it offer any real advantage over the borah gear. Which I've read is a high quality product with attention to detail.
All good questions. I can tell you some reasons why the Borah is lighter wt. 1) Argon 67 top fabric weighs less than the MLD Mountain Pro silny top fabric 2) the Borah is sized slightly smaller in the 4.5 oz version than the 6 oz MLD. Compare the sizing carefully. It could make a difference in comfort and possibly performance for folks on the cusp of bivy sizing. 3) larger netting area over face in the Borah save grams. As stated earlier if you get the MLD full netting in the head area that 6 oz wt might be some grams less too. Contact Ron about his specs on that. The wts aren't all that different as might first appear! So might want to look at the comparison from other characteristics.
As Miner stated, none of this is to imply, that the Borah bivy can't get the job done. In my opinion if you're using a larger area tarp as you are for 1 p the Borah with the side zip option should handle whatever splash you MIGHT experience in the hands of a knowledgable tarper while saving some $. The across the chest and 20" down the side zip makes for easier bivy entry/exit particularly if you're setting up a tarp in the A frame config. and/or are a lanky or big person. Combine this set up with a full head net for insect pressure(if needed), slightly less wt, possibly less condensation, and less of claustrophobic feeling.
From my perspective here is where the top fabrics perform differently 1) pro Silny MLD uses has a much better DWR hence Water Resistance than the Argon 67 2) BUT that might make the Argon 67 slightly more breathable. I think you can look up some spec comparisons on BPL since I remember reading about this discussion. In short, HH, longer time before wetting out, longer duration before the DWR starts to become comprised for the Pro silny MLD uses than the Argon 67. 2) Possibly slightly greater durability in terms of usability with the Pro silny
I've had some Argon 67 gear.
I think you're asking the right questions. You must be an engineer not having hit the Lotto yet. :D
I plan on carrying a piece of tyvek or polycryo. I kinda prefer the tyvek over polycryo. Again at a weight penalty. I'm trying to keep my shelter under a pound including stakes and the ground sheet. So far on paper I'm right at 16oz. I feel like I'm the future i could get by with a smaller or cat cut tarp to shave an ounce, maybe and ounce and a half from that. But as of now, I like my 7x9. But I mostly set it up like an a frame. So a cat cut would probably suit me better.
I know people say bivys can suck out east. But I plan on always keeping it in my pack. I feel the tarp and lightweight bivy is a good solution for a do it all shelter from the East to the west coast. Of course, in mild and not winter conditions.
Thanks for your replies
I'm pretty excited about getting a piece of kit from MLD. I am eager to see what everyone is talking about saying their quality is above the rest. I own gear from zpacks, ula, EE quilts, hammock gear, etc.
Maybe I'll post some pics when I get it
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Pretend your on a warm, humid/damp drizzling day with mosquitos swarming on edge of swampy area
Still think its a do-it-all shelter?
No such thing unfortunately. Always tradeoffs
But....no one said you can only have one
Both of you need to recognize that a bivy is not just a shelter system element but also a sleep system element. Read #'s 1-9 as Ron lists here: http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=30
And, I agree with you FFE that your gear path is quite adaptable to different regions and situations.
I'm not expecting UL gear to last forever. However, there have been zpacks tents survive a triple crown. MLD mids with thousands of miles on them showing little wear used in 4 season conditions. I met a guy using an arc blast on the AT that he said he also used on the PCT and CDT. I've read accounts of single pieces of polycryo lasting a thru hike.
I'd say these are uncommon occurrences where I'd want to know the exact details about how a ZP .51 CF tent or Arc Blast lasted for a TC or both the PCT and CDT. I'd strongly suspect there are vital details that offer context that are missing from these accounts. Remember, ZP gear wts have increased in the last few yrs for the Arc Blast so ZP's approach is to aim for greater durability or offer it as an option to appeal to a broader market. I assume ZP doesn't want that one and done Go Lite judgement assigned to them across the board. This may also be a factor in why they used the 1.0 CF bottom in the Splash bivy?
My point, with proper care, quality ultralight gear can give great service life. On the other hand, those same pieces of equipment have been shredded in a few months by people who don't treat ul gear with the care it needs.
For me, an Arc Blast only lasts 3000 miles. After that I tend to have so much duct tape on it it defeats the UL purposes of having a CF UL pack. BESIDES, at 22.5 oz(w/ hip belt add ons) at 57L it's not the absolute lightest wt pack around in that volume range. And, at $375 for a new CF Arc Blast every 3000 miles, which is about 14 months for me, is a steep price to pay for something I'm not getting the durability and wt savings I desire. SO, the Arc Blast FOR ME is opted for not because I'm CF crazy but because using it on a limited basis it offers performance value attributes that are desired.
My two cents even though a design has been made. I don't believe cuben is a suitable material in an application where there is abrasion. I have it on my net inner floor and that ounce weight savings has already resulted in a couple of patches. (My typical through down site is usually picked in the dark and less than ideal.).
Most of my hiking nights have been spent in a TiGoat bivy with a Silnyl floor likely very similar to MLDs. After a few years I held it up to like and there were dozens of pin holes, easy to repair with a small dap of silicone. I also don't used any ground sheet. IMHO, one of the many uses of a bivy is the ground sheet functionality.
fastfoxengineering
03-20-2017, 11:41
So you bivy users. If I may ask, what led you to using a bivy in the first place. Are you cowboy campers? Or like to use small tarps?
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Back when tarps were the only way to get a sub 1 pound shelter, I wanted even lighter, so I I ditched my 8x10 silnylon for one of the first cuben fiber that MLD made. The default size back then was 8' long. Just prior to that had picked up a titanium goat Bivy since I knew I wanted a smaller tarp. Realized I really enjoyed cowboy camping. I really hate doing any camp chores, so avoiding setting up a shelter if at all possible is very agreeable to me.
Back to the original topic. Forgot to mention this. I have a MLD bug bivy with silnylon floor. Only used for about 5 days and has 2small holes in it from abrasion. Camped on a rock slab in Yosemite as it was the flatest spot in an area covered in rocks. So I don't really think of silnylon being that much better in durability compared to a heavy weight cuben fiber. It does pack easier and smaller when stuffing due to being slippery.
fastfoxengineering
03-20-2017, 13:56
Has utilizing a bivy improved your cowboy camping? How so if yes
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fastfoxengineering
03-20-2017, 14:08
Furthermore what tarp do you typically use with your bivy. I know you like to cowboy. But I'm assuming your carry a tarp for less than good weather
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sethd513
03-20-2017, 21:07
I just opened up my snowyside event bivy with Cuban floor. First impression about the floor was yes thin but manageable. Unfortunately I don't have the means to hike thousands of miles every year. I do see this bivy with care lasting a while.
Like muddywaters said there is no do it all shelter. I was hoping this would be it but it won't be as the bug netting is finicky.
I think though the oz or 2 on the shelter that you save,then finding the little things you can swap or leave out to save a half oz or oz makes a big difference in the end. And keeps it interesting.
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I always carry my tarp (MLD Grace Solo CF, custom narrower width at 9' length). Rarely use it though. I resist putting it up to the point of pushing my luck cowboy camping. Get away with it more often then not, but due get burned occasionally. :D
I do use my bivy at least 80% of the time, even if I leave the top unzipped and folded over. Warmth retention, wind blockage, bug protection, and a ground cloth (when I don't use a polycro sheet). A couple of times, used it as a light sleeping bag when it was way too hot for my down quilt. I think I use it as much out of habit then real need sometimes. When I did the northern part of the AT, it was convenient to use in the shelters.
I tried a zpacks Hexamid shape tarp, but went back to the grace solo tarp again when the dimensions didn't really work well with my bivy. It was the bivy or the Hexamid, and the Hexamid went.
So you bivy users. If I may ask, what led you to using a bivy in the first place. Are you cowboy campers? Or like to use small tarps?
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Multi use UL principles. Just said a bivy isn't just a shelter element but also a sleep system element.
Ron lists some good reasons which were just linked to. I'll add some of my own notes.
1: Part of the total sleep heat retention system - adds 5 - 15 degrees of warmth - especially if any slight wind at all get under/around your shelter.
Paring a bivy with a quilt, sleeping bag, or liner changes the characteristics of all those three sleep system elements. Now, I don't experience drafts with the quilt when tossing and turning. Now, I don't need a separate sleeping bag at a 15* less temp rating or with a different face fabric. Now when I use a sewn thru seams sleeping bag - WM Highlite 35* - those cold spots aren't as noticeable.
2: Bug Protection
Now, I can eliminate a bug net or bug bivy which also saves wt. When I do this I hang a cord from the hood apex to a low hanging tree branch, underside of a tarp ridge line loop, etc to hold it up. Saves wt again.
3: Built in Ground Cloth
Saves wt again of a ground sheet.
4: Protects from any blown or splashed rain /snow that nets in under your overhead shelter.
This has the potential for conserving down loft.
5: Saves weight from the total shelter system. It's a 7oz multipurpose piece of gear that allows a lighter sleeping bag, no need for a ground cloth or a separate bug protection system. Allows the use of a smaller overhead shelter.
Now I can take a lighter wt less warm sleeping bag because the warmth is being made up in part with the bivy. The bivy allows for the option of a truly minimalist coverage UL/SUL tarp. There's two ways of looking at that though as far as I'm concerned 1) throw a bivy into the mix if it makes sense with a minimalist sized very UL tarp 2) don't gram weenie the tarp coverage size and one might be able to ditch the bivy when no/light bug pressure, sleeping bag temp rating is adequate on its own which is in the sleeping bag/quilt quiver, it's not an anticipated rainy hike, etc.
6: Can be used alone for night temps above about 65 degrees when you do not need a sleeping bag but do need some wind/ water protection, a bit of warmth like a sheet and bug protection.
YUP! SHWEET having a 6-7 oz sleeping bag that has some wind and rain protection.
7: Can be used alone with no overhead tarp for cowboy camping.
YUP. Me like like.
8: Pairs perfectly with a backcountry style quilt to limit warm air venting during night moves.
Already stated this.
9: By putting your sleep pad inside the bivy you increase the sleep pad/system thermal efficiency by limiting convective heat loss.
YUP. But doing so might entail allowing for the sleeping pad thickness and sleeping bag/quilt loft thickness when choosing the bivy size.
Has utilizing a bivy improved your cowboy camping? How so if yes
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Yes. It has allowed me to sleep in some damp places that I wouldn't have with just a untreated down sleeping bag. i.e.; caves, grassy fields or low lying areas that might be prone to dew, at the base of waterfalls where no tent would fit, on ledges during climbs or traverses in wind swept or exposed areas.
Furthermore what tarp do you typically use with your bivy. I know you like to cowboy. But I'm assuming your carry a tarp for less than good weather
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Sometimes I'll use WP bivies in stand alone fashion without a tarp. Less likely to do that with a WR bivy. What tarp is used is dependent on things like precipitation, wind, activity, etc.
fastfoxengineering
03-21-2017, 07:18
Thanks for your response. I had similar thinking when deciding a bivy will probably be good for me. All of those points seem to be the main advantages of utilizing a bivy.
Care to share any negatives you've experienced using a superlight bivy. How did you deal with them?
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So you bivy users. If I may ask, what led you to using a bivy in the first place. Are you cowboy campers? Or like to use small tarps?
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Cowboy camping most of this time. If not then use small tarp, mid.
Has utilizing a bivy improved your cowboy camping? How so if yes
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A bivy has made cowboy camping super easy. I have my quilt rolled up in my bivy so I pull it out of the pack, unroll it then put the air mat in. No ground cloths to deal with, and the bivy provides some protection from dew and dirt. Also, you have to factor in whether you use a quilt or bag. With a quilt you also get draft and wind protection. Not a big deal if using a bag but it deals with the inherent downsides of using a quilt. This is why I believe the sleep system and shelter needs to looked at and optimized as a system, not as individual elements.
Something unexpected that I learned on the PCT was how well a bivy did in the wind. Without the use of a shelter you keep a low wind profile and the wind doesn't flap or pound yourtarp or other shelter.
Thanks for your response. I had similar thinking when deciding a bivy will probably be good for me. All of those points seem to be the main advantages of utilizing a bivy.
Care to share any negatives you've experienced using a superlight bivy. How did you deal with them?
Not per say any brand or model of bivy one potential negative is condensation inside the bivy. Moisture or rime on top of the sleeping bag or on the outside of a bivy can form. I'm still figuring out how to avoid this in below freezing temps. Note: don't breathe or bring wet things into an enclosed bivy.
Addressing this in non freezing temps is a combination of breathability in the top layer and ventilation with WR bivies like the Superlight.... With the full head net and chest down the side 20" option you've chosen combined with the ample 1 p tarp coverage decreased condensation and increased dryness under the tarp to spread out a little should be enjoyed. Learn when and where you might throw a bivy into the shelter/SLEEP SYSTEM equation and keep developing CS selection awareness.
Using any bivy is really cowboy camping which many will be averse to that seek refuge enclosed in a hammock, roomy tent, roomy lean-to, or fully or mostly enclosed shaped tarp/tarptent - Hexamid, Solomid, Echo II, Cirriform, Henry Shire's designs. It's not for everyone all the time...even in my own backpacking world. I see bivy use without a tarp to be a rather minimalist 'I want Nature in my face" affair. Everyone is not going to appreciate that or having all their kit laid out on the ground at a sleep site. For this reason I see stand alone bivy use for those who want to travel light and who can be more embracing of the environment.
Don't let anyone tell you bivies are awful in the east. That's a gross generalization often made by folks with little or no personal bivy experiences.
fastfoxengineering
03-21-2017, 12:25
I figured that. Im not really a shelter dweller. But an at thru hiker who spends alot of time in shelters I think a bivy like a superlight makes sense. Small footprint. Bug protection. And blocks wind in those drafty shelters.
I'm hiking the sunapee Greenway at the end of April. There are nice clean shelters on that trail and you typically have them to yourself. I plan to take the bivy on that 50 mile trip and utilize it in the shelters.
The more I LD hike.. the more minimilast I'm becoming. I'm comfortable in a nice tent but improving my skills and going with less has given me more freedom on the trail in my opinion.
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fastfoxengineering
03-21-2017, 12:27
This year, I have a 40* quilt at 13oz and plan on trying a 12 oz frameless pack to really see if ultralight hiking is for men
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fastfoxengineering
03-21-2017, 12:27
Not men... Me
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cmoulder
03-21-2017, 18:44
but improving my skills and going with less has given me more freedom on the trail in my opinion
Ba-da-bing! :)
Another advantage of bivy/cowboy is that it really opens up stealth camp opportunities.
I'm neither confirming, denying, nor advocating for or against stealth camping (so let's don't flame, OK?), but I might or might not have thrown down a bivy/bag and slept on the rocks in the Catskills (or was it the Daks?) a time or two. Get there late, watch the sunset, have some dinner, a wee nip and fall asleep. If the spot is big enough to lie down, you're good to go. Vastly expands choices.
I just opened up my snowyside event bivy with Cuban floor. First impression about the floor was yes thin but manageable. Unfortunately I don't have the means to hike thousands of miles every year. I do see this bivy with care lasting a while.
Like muddywaters said there is no do it all shelter. I was hoping this would be it but it won't be as the bug netting is finicky.
I think though the oz or 2 on the shelter that you save,then finding the little things you can swap or leave out to save a half oz or oz makes a big difference in the end. And keeps it interesting.
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The CF floor is a custom option since the Snowyside usually has sil/pu coated floor. What did the wt come out to be and the final cost? What wt CF for the bottom? This might be very competitive with the MLD eVent 3 ply top 1.3 CF bottom at a lower price pt.
sethd513
03-21-2017, 20:24
The CF floor is a custom option since the Snowyside usually has sil/pu coated floor. What did the wt come out to be and the final cost? What wt CF for the bottom? This might be very competitive with the MLD eVent 3 ply top 1.3 CF bottom at a lower price pt.
This bivy was built with .75 floor with an added footbox vent with flap, wp zipper and bug mesh. Also the girth size was increased by 10% as I wanted to make sure my deep winter set up would fit well. With shockcord on the head and foot tie outs, 4 corner tie outs, removable face bug netting w/cf stuff sack and a larger sil nylong stuff sack it comes in at 13.4 oz.
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sethd513
03-22-2017, 05:47
Without the stuff sacks and face mesh it's 12 oz. to my door it was 255$. Also there were a ton of emails back and forth with me bothering john with questions and him making sure dimensions would be spot on. Great customer service. If I ever need a pack built he will be the first I go to.
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fastfoxengineering
03-22-2017, 08:35
Mld says bivys are shipping in two weeks. Anything you guys want to see on mine when I receive it?
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I have the .75 cuben floor on my MLD Cricket tarp/bivy. I always use a tyvek groundsheet underneath it though. CF is tough but not especially puncture resistant and I doubt that a 1.0 oz CF would be much better than a .75 if you set up on a thorn. I guess some would consider it silly to spend a bunch of $ on UL cuben fiber and then carry around a 4oz tyvek sheet but it's multi-role comfort item for me (sit pad, emergency naps, extra ground insulation, quick rain cover, etc) so it's coming along regardless.
sethd513
03-22-2017, 17:43
I have the .75 cuben floor on my MLD Cricket tarp/bivy. I always use a tyvek groundsheet underneath it though. CF is tough but not especially puncture resistant and I doubt that a 1.0 oz CF would be much better than a .75 if you set up on a thorn. I guess some would consider it silly to spend a bunch of $ on UL cuben fiber and then carry around a 4oz tyvek sheet but it's multi-role comfort item for me (sit pad, emergency naps, extra ground insulation, quick rain cover, etc) so it's coming along regardless.
Even if it's only purpose was to protect your shelter floor I wouldn't say it's a bad idea to carry something of that weight. I personally don't like polycro because it's so slick and I have to order the kite tyvek so I just use what's in the box store at the time. But I have a sheet of all of them to use. I'll compare when I pack my bag. New items I usually go with something heavier till I'm totally happy with my understanding of that gear.
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but improving my skills and going with less has given me more freedom on the trail in my opinion
Ba-da-bing! https://whiteblaze.net/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Another advantage of bivy/cowboy is that it really opens up stealth camp opportunities.
I'm neither confirming, denying, nor advocating for or against stealth camping (so let's don't flame, OK?), but I might or might not have thrown down a bivy/bag and slept on the rocks in the Catskills (or was it the Daks?) a time or two. Get there late, watch the sunset, have some dinner, a wee nip and fall asleep. If the spot is big enough to lie down, you're good to go. Vastly expands choices.
This ^^^