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hlee453
04-06-2017, 01:52
Bear spray or no?
BearVault or no?

Opinions, go!

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BuckeyeBill
04-06-2017, 03:22
Most people will tell you no to both questions. You would only need a bear vault if you plan on camping between Jarrod Gap and Neel Gap from March 1 to June 1. The ATC "strongly recommends" using a Bear-resistant canister Between Springer Mountain and Damascus Va. due to rising number of bear encounters in the region.
That said, if you stop and camp at Lance Creek (2.4 miles south of Jarrod Gap), you should be able to make it to Neel Gap (7.4 miles from Lance Creek) the next day.
Personally I am carrying UDAP Bear Spray (http://www.udap.com/mm5/merchant.mvc). Call it insurance, you have it but don't want to use it. I like this brand because it was developed by a guy that survived a grizzly bear attack. It projects a 30 ft fog type spray instead of a stream. I also opted to carry a Ursack Allmitey Bear Bag (http://www.ursack.com/the-shop/). It combines the S29.3 All white Bear Bag with a Kevlar bag laminated inside. The S29 stops the bears, and the Kevlar bag stops the little sharp tooth critters. I seam sealed it and I put a large (28 x 20 inch) Opsak inside. The Opsak is just for odor control as I have never had a leak. This combination may weigh more than other people's food sack, but I am not asking them to carry it for me. When I camp at a place that has no cables or bear boxes, I tie it to a tree about 6" in diameter. never had a problem. YMMV. I feel this a personal choice. Research your options then go with your gut feeling.

Sandy of PA
04-06-2017, 07:41
Bear spray, no, bear vault, yes. The micro-bears are the biggest threat to your food, the vault protects it from all hungry critters. Plus you always have a stool for around the fire and an ice bucket for town stops!

ranger2012
04-06-2017, 08:03
Hey, Sandy of PA! Its ranger, I met you on my 2012 AT thru. You, me and One camped together one night. Not sure where..

Anyway, No need for either especially the 2lbs 9oz bear vault. Ugh that thing is heavy. Just hang your food properly and you'll be fine. the PCT method is easy and works well just google it. Sandy of PA is right about the micro-bears they will chew thru anything to get to food.

You'll be lucky to see a bear. I saw 13 on my AT thru (including the one in a cage at the bear mountain zoo). I only saw 2 on my PCT thru. None of them wanted anything to do with me and were usually running away so fast I couldn't get a picture of them.

Have a great hike

Lone Wolf
04-06-2017, 08:13
no spray. no vault

rafe
04-06-2017, 08:18
So far: no and no. If they ever make a cheap and light bear vault that isn't a huge pain to carry, I'll consider it.

As others have said: you'll be lucky to see a bear.

johnspenn
04-06-2017, 08:30
I mainly hike in N GA/southern Appalachians.

Spray? no

Vault? no, but I did purchase an Ursack with my REI points. More for critters other than bears, but for bears as well, since they seem to be prolific in the Cohuttas and I love backpacking there.

Deadeye
04-06-2017, 08:59
Bear spray, no, bear vault, yes. The micro-bears are the biggest threat to your food, the vault protects it from all hungry critters. Plus you always have a stool for around the fire and an ice bucket for town stops!

Agreed, although I know I'm in the minority when it comes to carrying a bear vault. I've just found it very convenient, keeps all critters out, keeps food dry and whole, etc. Plus, I spend a lot of time in the Adirondacks where they are required. Sooner or later they will be required in places like the Smokies, and eventually most of the AT.

moldy
04-06-2017, 09:01
No and no. No hiker has ever sprayed a bear on the AT and reported it. (Several people have sprayed themselves though) The bear canister is way too heavy to make it worth it.

Uncle Joe
04-06-2017, 09:24
I'd probably pack spray in GSMNP and NJ. No on the vault otherwise.

FreeGoldRush
04-06-2017, 09:27
No and no. No hiker has ever sprayed a bear on the AT and reported it. (Several people have sprayed themselves though) The bear canister is way too heavy to make it worth it.

Thats a good point. Can someone describe their experience of using bear spray to their advantage on the AT? I have yet to find a single instance.

Offshore
04-06-2017, 09:56
I'd probably pack spray in GSMNP and NJ. No on the vault otherwise.

Carrying more than 3/4 oz. of a pepper type spray in NJ constitutes unlawful possession of a weapon. (N.J.S.2C:39-6). That said, I do have bear spray but never carry it. I'm on the AT (or other trails in NJ) almost every weekend and see black bears about 60% of the time, but never had a problem. People are far better off educating themselves in black bear safety. Bear spray is no substitute for knowing what to do to to avoid an encounter in the first place, or if one is unavoidable, having it not turn into an attack. By the time you need to use the bear spray, the situation has gotten so far out of control that the spray is a desperate last resort.

Captain Bluebird
04-06-2017, 10:45
On a short section last year from Standing Bear to Hot Springs, we had two encounters with bear each night at our campsites. The campsites were 16 miles apart. Don't know if it was the same bear but each night it was just outside our tents for about 20 or so minutes. The 2nd night a young hiker went by and she told us that a bear got her food sack and other items on the other side of Hot Springs. I am headed back to Hot Springs next week to section to Erwin, Tn. Hopefully, the bears are still hibernating! If not, just a word of precaution in that particular trek on the AT!

Uncle Joe
04-06-2017, 11:28
Carrying more than 3/4 oz. of a pepper type spray in NJ constitutes unlawful possession of a weapon. (N.J.S.2C:39-6). That said, I do have bear spray but never carry it. I'm on the AT (or other trails in NJ) almost every weekend and see black bears about 60% of the time, but never had a problem. People are far better off educating themselves in black bear safety. Bear spray is no substitute for knowing what to do to to avoid an encounter in the first place, or if one is unavoidable, having it not turn into an attack. By the time you need to use the bear spray, the situation has gotten so far out of control that the spray is a desperate last resort.

I seem to recall there being a law about it in NJ. *I'd interject, given the reports of issues with bears in NJ it's a dumb law. My opinion, of course. I'm not ignorant of bear avoidance and such I just can't unhear what I've heard about attacks in NJ and GSMNP. Regardless of the situation involved. It might be a security blanket but I'm out there to enjoy myself. If a bottle of something makes me feel better I'm fine with it. On that thought, maybe I just need a flask. :D

Offshore
04-06-2017, 12:32
I seem to recall there being a law about it in NJ. *I'd interject, given the reports of issues with bears in NJ it's a dumb law. My opinion, of course. I'm not ignorant of bear avoidance and such I just can't unhear what I've heard about attacks in NJ and GSMNP. Regardless of the situation involved. It might be a security blanket but I'm out there to enjoy myself. If a bottle of something makes me feel better I'm fine with it. On that thought, maybe I just need a flask. :D

I don't know what you heard of bear attacks in NJ, but its not exactly an epidemic. There was one kid killed in 2014. There was not a lot of information released other than it was a group of inexperienced hikers that may have been approaching the bear to grab photos and when the bear reacted, they split up and ran. The second attack was on a scout leader who lowered himself into a ravine onto a hibernating bear. In both instances, a little black bear knowledge would have gone a long way - specifically what a bear huffing means, importance of remaining in a group, not mimicking prey behavior by running from a bear, and knowing where bears are likely to have dens, including ground dens.

I don't think that the bear spray law is a good one, but I also don't think people should be running around bear territory with a false sense of security due to 8 or 10 oz. of pepper spray as a substitute for knowing bear safety. That said, as long as you have the basics of bear safety down, a little liquid courage from Scotland or KY never hurt!

hlee453
04-06-2017, 12:35
I don't know what you heard of bear attacks in NJ, but its not exactly an epidemic. There was one kid killed in 2014. There was not a lot of information released other than it was a group of inexperienced hikers that may have been approaching the bear to grab photos and when the bear reacted, they split up and ran. The second attack was on a scout leader who lowered himself into a ravine onto a hibernating bear. In both instances, a little black bear knowledge would have gone a long way - specifically what a bear huffing means, importance of remaining in a group, not mimicking prey behavior by running from a bear, and knowing where bears are likely to have dens, including ground dens.

I don't think that the bear spray law is a good one, but I also don't think people should be running around bear territory with a false sense of security due to 8 or 10 oz. of pepper spray as a substitute for knowing bear safety. That said, as long as you have the basics of bear safety down, a little liquid courage from Scotland or KY never hurt!
Majority of my backpacking experience is in grizzly territory. That being said I'm definitely very familiar with bear protocol and identifying a grizzly from a black. Feels a bit strange to leave two things I always have to carry at home though

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Offshore
04-06-2017, 12:56
Majority of my backpacking experience is in grizzly territory. That being said I'm definitely very familiar with bear protocol and identifying a grizzly from a black. Feels a bit strange to leave two things I always have to carry at home though

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If you're used to grizzlies, I wouldn't worry about the bears on the AT - you know what you're doing. Make sure you read up on ticks and Lyme prevention. Maryland to southern New England is ground zero for Lyme.

somers515
04-06-2017, 13:12
Carrying more than 3/4 oz. of a pepper type spray in NJ constitutes unlawful possession of a weapon. (N.J.S.2C:39-6). That said, I do have bear spray but never carry it. I'm on the AT (or other trails in NJ) almost every weekend and see black bears about 60% of the time, but never had a problem. People are far better off educating themselves in black bear safety. Bear spray is no substitute for knowing what to do to to avoid an encounter in the first place, or if one is unavoidable, having it not turn into an attack. By the time you need to use the bear spray, the situation has gotten so far out of control that the spray is a desperate last resort.

Recently left my job as an Assistant Prosecutor in NJ after 15 years and you are misstating the clarity of NJ law on this issue. It's actually an interesting legal issue that as a hiker and a NJ criminal lawyer have given a lot of thought. 2C:39-6 is the list of EXCEPTIONS. So while it's clear if you meet the conditions of 39-6i you are legal, it's not clear that the reverse is true. 39-6i lists the punishment for carrying more than 3/4 oz. of pepper spray but to be subject to that punishment you would also have to violate 2C:39-5. Looking at 2C:39-5d would require that you are using the pepper spray in a manner "not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have". Therefore the logic would go if you are using the bear pepper spray while camping in the woods of NJ for the purpose of protecting yourself against bears then presumably you are legal.

I'm not giving legal advice - I'm just saying that someone reading Offshore's statements shouldn't immediately assume he is correct about NJ law on this particular issue.

Now let's talk practicalities. Do you really think that if you want to carry bear spray while backpacking through NJ and you are doing so responsibly that you are going to be given any trouble?

Again not saying if you should or shouldn't carry bear spray. My understanding is that relative to the rest of the AT, NJ has a fairly active bear population. The threat of bears acting aggressively toward you might be low on the probability scale but it's definitely not zero and I think it's probably smart to give a little extra thought to consider ways you can lessen your chances of a bad outcome in the unlikely event you are confronted with that situation. So when Offshore encourages people to educate themselves in black bear safety - that I completely agree with, of course. Happy hiking!

Offshore
04-06-2017, 15:57
Recently left my job as an Assistant Prosecutor in NJ after 15 years and you are misstating the clarity of NJ law on this issue. It's actually an interesting legal issue that as a hiker and a NJ criminal lawyer have given a lot of thought. 2C:39-6 is the list of EXCEPTIONS. So while it's clear if you meet the conditions of 39-6i you are legal, it's not clear that the reverse is true. 39-6i lists the punishment for carrying more than 3/4 oz. of pepper spray but to be subject to that punishment you would also have to violate 2C:39-5. Looking at 2C:39-5d would require that you are using the pepper spray in a manner "not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have". Therefore the logic would go if you are using the bear pepper spray while camping in the woods of NJ for the purpose of protecting yourself against bears then presumably you are legal.

I'm not giving legal advice - I'm just saying that someone reading Offshore's statements shouldn't immediately assume he is correct about NJ law on this particular issue.

Now let's talk practicalities. Do you really think that if you want to carry bear spray while backpacking through NJ and you are doing so responsibly that you are going to be given any trouble?

Again not saying if you should or shouldn't carry bear spray. My understanding is that relative to the rest of the AT, NJ has a fairly active bear population. The threat of bears acting aggressively toward you might be low on the probability scale but it's definitely not zero and I think it's probably smart to give a little extra thought to consider ways you can lessen your chances of a bad outcome in the unlikely event you are confronted with that situation. So when Offshore encourages people to educate themselves in black bear safety - that I completely agree with, of course. Happy hiking!

You may have the legal background to determine that in the end, posession probably wouldn't be problem (and I tend to agree with you on this), very few law enforcement personnel that one would encounter neither have similar legal background to reach the same conclusion nor the time to listen to an argument. In all probability its arrest or cite and let the courts handle it. Who needs that hassle for something that has such a low probability of being needed at all or if so, being used correctly and effectively ? Humans do a terrible job in risk assessment and evaluation - people get worked up over bears, when the real risks on the trail are getting there and back (esp. in NJ) and tick-borne illness.

Uncle Joe
04-06-2017, 17:00
You may have the legal background to determine that in the end, posession probably wouldn't be problem (and I tend to agree with you on this), very few law enforcement personnel that one would encounter neither have similar legal background to reach the same conclusion nor the time to listen to an argument. In all probability its arrest or cite and let the courts handle it. Who needs that hassle for something that has such a low probability of being needed at all or if so, being used correctly and effectively ? Humans do a terrible job in risk assessment and evaluation - people get worked up over bears, when the real risks on the trail are getting there and back (esp. in NJ) and tick-borne illness.

The question also comes in how many officers have bear spray on their radar in the first place? For me, if I were hiking there, I'd have it. As I said, NJ is home to an attack that I can recall and won't likely disassociate from my memory. The Smokies are another. So I'd either carry or hike it in the Winter.

centerfieldr162
04-06-2017, 17:37
I carry spray in the gsmnp. Most will say no, but it helps my piece of mind. I hike alone mostly so it's worth it for mine and my family's sanity.

However... I've found that (like stated before) getting hurt while out on the trail is more of a concern to me. This is coming from someone who has done many loops without seeing bears but has had real scares with slipping or falling and being injured alone without seeing anyone all day long and having to get myself off the trail/

somers515
04-06-2017, 20:51
. . . Humans do a terrible job in risk assessment and evaluation - people get worked up over bears, when the real risks on the trail are getting there and back (esp. in NJ) and tick-borne illness.

Agree with you completely on this point too!

Not sure I agree with you that law enforcement personnel would be inclined to arrest or cite you for it. Law enforcement are people too and their job is literally to keep us safe. I suppose if someone was concerned, and wanted to carry bear spray, they could call and ask the shift commander for the jurisdiction they'd be under. The answer you got wouldn't answer the legal question but certainly would answer whether or not you'd be hassled. My guess is that if you framed your question properly you would not be bothered if you exhibited that you were being responsible and only possessed the bear spray for the purpose for which its intended, protection against bears.

Again agree with you best to learn all of the ways you can decrease your chances of a bad encounter with a bear - which you list above. Personally I don't own bear spray (yet) and if I'm not hiking alone and I'm camping where I can do a PCT hang or store my food in a bear box I'd feel pretty safe without bear spray in NJ. Interesting discussion all - thanks.

Offshore
04-07-2017, 10:06
The question also comes in how many officers have bear spray on their radar in the first place? For me, if I were hiking there, I'd have it. As I said, NJ is home to an attack that I can recall and won't likely disassociate from my memory. The Smokies are another. So I'd either carry or hike it in the Winter.

Don't let your guard down in the winter. Black bears don't really turn in for the winter. They'll be up and about during the warmer snaps. I was up on the AT about a week after a snowfall when it was about 45 degrees, but snow was on the ground. Lots of bear prints in the snow and lots of fresh clawing on dead trees where the bear was looking for insects.

As far as bear spray being on the radar, I suspect it may be more than one would think. The AT goes through state parks and state forests in NJ. The trail is heavily used and the park police tend to enforce rules to keep things under control.

Venchka
04-07-2017, 13:45
Bear spray or no?
BearVault or no?

Opinions, go!

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No.
No.
I have none.
Wayne


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Noseeum
04-07-2017, 14:07
I bought bear spray when prepping for a section through GSMNP. But after staring at it on my gear shelf for a while, I did not carry it with me. Ultimately, I figured I'd most likely just end up spraying myself if I ever tried to use it.

As for bear canisters, the ATC is now recommending bear canister use along the entire AT (http://appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/trail-updates).

That said, I just came back from a short section ending at Fontana Dam and did not see anyone carrying a bear can. Ursacks look to be popular and more people than I have seen in the past appear to be making an effort to hang their bags (though good hangs are still exceedingly rare).

speedbump
04-07-2017, 17:01
I get many comments from other hikers that I don't need bear spray. I Feel better with it, peace of mind. I also have a tiny, yet very loud air horn. Not just for bears either. I use a ursak. HYOH. Whatever you feel comfortable with.

Dogwood
04-07-2017, 17:58
I don't know what you heard of bear attacks in NJ, but its not exactly an epidemic. There was one kid killed in 2014. There was not a lot of information released other than it was a group of inexperienced (ignorant, unaware, unknowing of how a human should behave around bears) hikes that may have been approaching the bear to grab photos and when the bear reacted, they split up and ran. The second attack was on a scout leader who lowered himself into a ravine onto a hibernating bear[U] (HUMAN Ignorance). In both instances, a little black bear knowledge would have gone a long way - specifically what a bear huffing means, importance of remaining in a group, not mimicking prey behavior by running from a bear, and knowing where bears are likely to have dens, including ground dens.

I don't think that the bear spray law is a good one, but I also don't think people should be running around bear territory with a false sense of security due to 8 or 10 oz. of pepper spray as a substitute for knowing bear safety. That said, as long as you have the basics of bear safety down, a little liquid courage from Scotland or KY never hurt!

This^^^

Humans place too much trust in their gadgets and tech over knowledge and wisdom(understanding). It leads to a false sense of security...ala 911 in miniature.

Malto
04-07-2017, 20:53
I am much more afraid of hikers carrying bear spray than I am of Bears. I can imagine night hiking by some fool camped near the trail and being mistaken for a bear and shot in the face with bear spray. How did people who claim to love the wilderness develop such a fear of an animal that rarely causes any harm? I am thinking of starting a therepy practice to help people overcome their irrational fear of bears.

BuckeyeBill
04-07-2017, 21:21
I don't have a fear of bears, respect maybe but not fear. I have also educated myself on bears in general and their behavior. That is one reason I don't have music blasting in my ears while hiking. I like to hear the sounds of nature. Black bears will normally run from you unless you are between a female and her cubs or you got to close and it feels boxed in, in which case backing away may be all that is needed to neutralize the situation. At least they are not like polar bears that will attack without provocation. Oh an Malto you don't need to worry about me spraying you by accident as you will probably smell worse than a bear. JK

Malto
04-07-2017, 21:23
I don't have a fear of bears, respect maybe but not fear. I have also educated myself on bears in general and their behavior. That is one reason I don't have music blasting in my ears while hiking. I like to hear the sounds of nature. Black bears will normally run from you unless you are between a female and her cubs or you got to close and it feels boxed in, in which case backing away may be all that is needed to neutralize the situation. At least they are not like polar bears that will attack without provocation. Oh an Malto you don't need to worry about me spraying you by accident as you will probably smell worse than a bear. JK

Hey, have we met. I resemble that comment!

MuddyWaters
04-07-2017, 22:48
I am much more afraid of hikers carrying bear spray than I am of Bears. I can imagine night hiking by some fool camped near the trail and being mistaken for a bear and shot in the face with bear spray. How did people who claim to love the wilderness develop such a fear of an animal that rarely causes any harm? I am thinking of starting a therepy practice to help people overcome their irrational fear of bears.

When hiking by a tent at night, simply yell out " Not a bear", as a courtesy.

There was nothing the native americans were more scared of than the grizzly. With good reason. Yeah, black bears arent grizzlys, but on rare occassions they still pretend to be. Grizzly also used to inhabit a much larger range in lower 48.

In the past, I think there were more, larger, old bears in the eastern forests. The early settlers had fear of them and tales about them. Perhaps its just todays black bears that are accustomed to people and are wusses.

glenlawson
04-07-2017, 22:52
I tend to say no to both of them. I try to avoid making my food available for animals and hang it as best I can to protect from rodents, raccoons and bears.

Slow Trek
04-08-2017, 00:15
We saw 21 bears between Springer and Harper's Ferry last year,a few close enough to make me nervous. We did what we were supposed to do,and no problem. I would not carry the canister,but if I repeat that section,I think the weight of a spray can would be ok.

left52side
04-08-2017, 02:20
Im not the person to ask about any bear etiquette so my answer is NO and NO.
I have A certain theory on people over reacting and stressing out on the what if bear situations they might encounter.
Te critters now there another story all together lol.

BuckeyeBill
04-08-2017, 20:26
Quote Originally Posted by BuckeyeBill View Post
I don't have a fear of bears, respect maybe but not fear. I have also educated myself on bears in general and their behavior. That is one reason I don't have music blasting in my ears while hiking. I like to hear the sounds of nature. Black bears will normally run from you unless you are between a female and her cubs or you got to close and it feels boxed in, in which case backing away may be all that is needed to neutralize the situation. At least they are not like polar bears that will attack without provocation. Oh an Malto you don't need to worry about me spraying you by accident as you will probably smell worse than a bear. JK


Hey, have we met. I resemble that comment! Malto

I also have a very high respect for snakes. The snake I want to see is a Cobra parked in my driveway.

saltysack
04-08-2017, 22:00
I am much more afraid of hikers carrying bear spray than I am of Bears. I can imagine night hiking by some fool camped near the trail and being mistaken for a bear and shot in the face with bear spray. How did people who claim to love the wilderness develop such a fear of an animal that rarely causes any harm? I am thinking of starting a therepy practice to help people overcome their irrational fear of bears.

****......most people couldn't hit any part of an approaching bear much less you hiking but at Mach 1.....they better lead ya....[emoji38]

Captain Bluebird
04-09-2017, 13:25
Hiking alone, I am favor of carry for the olé piece of mind. Thru hiker season, don't think it would be necessary...

Uncle Joe
04-09-2017, 22:45
I am much more afraid of hikers carrying bear spray than I am of Bears. I can imagine night hiking by some fool camped near the trail and being mistaken for a bear and shot in the face with bear spray. How did people who claim to love the wilderness develop such a fear of an animal that rarely causes any harm? I am thinking of starting a therepy practice to help people overcome their irrational fear of bears.

Well being afraid of hikers with bear spray is silly, with all due respect. The reason people who claim to love the wilderness fear bears is because people who loved the wilderness have been killed by them. Yes people should respect bears but a certain amount of fear is good thing too. Mitigate the risk through knowledge and if you feel better hedging your bets with bear spray or a gun, do so. Some are fine stopping at knowledge, others aren't. I'm sure those who have saved their life with spray were glad they didn't stop at knowledge.