probiotics?

[AllDownhillFromHere]

I used to eat as much live culture yogurt as possible, to fight off the bad bacteria in my stomach from drinking untreated water. I'm not sure if it helped or not. Does anyone have a probiotic story? (For or against) I'm debating bringing some along with regular multivitamins.

[Dogwood]

Having healthy digestive and immune systems is significant to me too both on and off trail. Seeing that between 60,000,000 to 70,000,000 MILLION U.S. citizens have digestive disorders alone according to the CDC, NCBI, and ANA(American Nutrition Assoc.) probiotics and an anti anti-probiotic lifestyle are a large part of addressing this. Yogurt gets the spotlight but fermented foods more often have a MUCH higher probation count and variety of strains. Miso(no MSG added), tempeh, the in town Kambucha, occasional fermented vegetable such as Kimchi, sauerkraut, pickle, or ginger(at Sushi bars, delish), dark REAL chocolate, occasional RAW Goat Cheese in moderation, and rarer ginger beer fits the probiotic bill. If you find kefir that has excellent probiotics too.

[T.S.Kobzol]

Right on Dogwood. I'll add that Mango Lassi (basically yogurt/kefir thing) is an amazing treat. :-)




Having healthy digestive and immune systems is significant to me too both on and off trail. Seeing that between 60,000,000 to 70,000,000 MILLION U.S. citizens have digestive disorders alone according to the CDC, NCBI, and ANA(American Nutrition Assoc.) probiotics and an anti anti-probiotic lifestyle are a large part of addressing this. Yogurt gets the spotlight but fermented foods more often have a MUCH higher probation count and variety of strains. Miso(no MSG added), tempeh, the in town Kambucha, occasional fermented vegetable such as Kimchi, sauerkraut, pickle, or ginger(at Sushi bars, delish), dark REAL chocolate, occasional RAW Goat Cheese in moderation, and rarer ginger beer fits the probiotic bill. If you find kefir that has excellent probiotics too.

[T.S.Kobzol]

http://dahlicious.com

[FreeGoldRush]

Yes, I take a pro biotic daily. Yep, it does appear to be important and it creates noticeable benefit. But I've learned it is very hard to talk to others about it. People tend to place "what you eat" into the category of quackery. Marketing has done this to people. The belief most have seems to be that some government agency makes sure the food we eat is what our bodies need. Which is really ironic considering that most people do not trust the same large corporations that make their food.

[Praha4]

My story is while hiking the LT in 2013, a deep cut on my leg developed infection. Doctor on duty at Rutland walk-in clinic gave me script for Augmentin. Within 24 hours I developed severe diarrhea, so bad I had to run in the woods almost every hour while hiking. Dehydration followed, even with drinking a lot of water.
One miserable night in Skyline Lodge I had to run to the privy in 38 degree rain almost every couple hours. So when I got to Waitsfield, I immediately stopped at that grocery store, and picked up a box of Culturelle probiotics. Took a zero in Waitsfield to get re-hydrated, rest and did double dosage on the Culturelle.

It did the trick, within 24 hours all was better. I still take Culturelle at home, and take it with me on every hike or trip, especially overseas travel. Culturelle comes in capsules and does not require refrigeration. Yogurt and the other fermented foods mentioned are great too.

[jungleland1972]

The problem with any probiotics is that you have no idea how many actual living cultures you are ingesting (or are even alive once they hit the store shelves). I was at a NIH lecture and they indicated that suppositories where the only efficient delivery mechanism for probiotics. I am not a Dr. or an expert by any means but I found it interesting.

[chef4]

Fermented foods are the best bet, you can’t be sure what mix of probiotics you are getting in a supplement, they may vary significantly from what they claim to include.

[MuddyWaters]

Poop transplants from healthy persons apparently have worked wonders for persons that had their own flora destroyed by antibiotics. After struggled with issues for years. Probiotics, etc not help.

Yup its exactly what you might think

[Odd Man Out]

The OP mentioned taking a "regular multivitamin". I is important to understand that multivitamins and probiotics are completely different things.

I agree with the replies above that say a healthy internal microbiome is important for good health. There is also some evidence that a healthy external microbiome is also important. Americans' obsession with showering everyday is misguided. Hikers have an advantage here: hiker funk may be good for you. I also agree with the comments above that the best way to maintain your internal microbiome is through a diverse diet and that fermented foods are a good source of this. Here hikers may be at a disadvantage in that our diets are not always that diverse and rich in these probiotic rich foods. However again, Americans' obsession with sanitation works against us. How many "How long does cheese last?" threads have there been here? Americans are obsessed with refrigerating foods and are hesitant to take anything out of the refrigerator and put it in your backpack. But refrigerators have only been around for 100 years. In the previous 100,000 years of human history, we got by preserving food by a variety of methods, including fermentation. I speculate that the vast majority of fermented foods are ancient technologies developed for the purpose of food preservation. The point is that we as hikers could probably benefit from being a bit more aggressive at including these types of foods in our hiking diet, despite the dire warnings from the FDA about food spoilage.


Poop transplants from healthy persons apparently have worked wonders for persons that had their own flora destroyed by antibiotics. After struggled with issues for years. Probiotics, etc not help. Yup its exactly what you might think

In my career as a scientist, I have attended my fair share of biology seminars. I recall one in particular where the biologist was studying the advantages of coprophagy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia) in wildlife populations. All I could think is how biologists are good at coming up with cool words to name really disgusting things.

[Time Zone]

It's my understanding that the benefits of probiotics are generally overstated, because the microbiome in your gut is vastly more complex and (and personalized) than any active good bacteria you get in a probiotic food or supplement. That's why a fecal microbiotal transplant (in capsule form), preferably previously sourced from your healthy self (or a close relative) is the best way to re-establish a healthy gut microbiome after having it wiped out from medication.

[Leo L.]

I was very reluctant against probiotics, especially as some esoteric people advertised it here back home.
Finally realized that my wife is using probiotic (different brand that I would not reconize without she telling me) for hausehold cleaning since years, with good success.
Then I happened to get to know a guy in person who is selling this stuff for use in hospitals as a profession, and he told me real life stories that were really amazing.
He says, this is the stuff he belives in and he's very lucky that after so many years of selling crap, basically cheating on people, he has this one product he belives in and has lots of proof that it works.

Personally I'm using it to prevent mold in my old garage and barn and it really works, since two years now.
Next spring I'll apply it to my grapes to prevent mildew, we'll see how it works out.

I would NOT eat/drink it on a regular basis. Just a few single shots when you're in trouble should be enough.
The way it works is, you provoke an "infection" by the good germs and barm that probiotic is, and those good germs are strong and reproduce quick while pushing aside (basically, eating all food from) the bad germs.

[Dogwood]

...you can’t be sure what mix of probiotics you are getting in a supplement...
That can be true. It doesn't have to be.

The problem with any probiotics is that you have no idea how many actual living cultures you are ingesting (or are even alive once they hit the store shelves). I was at a NIH lecture and they indicated that suppositories where the only efficient delivery mechanism for probiotics. I am not a Dr. or an expert by any means but I found it interesting.

No need for being a M.D. to, just like anything else, do your own research, much like a M.D. would.
https://consumershealthreport.com/probiotic-supplements/bestprobiotics/?msclkid=e94d4602d8971d595eae1dd18124f17aFind reputable sources that have been independently evaluated.

Here are other helpful guidelines: https://www.livescience.com/56611-probiotics-myths.html


Situations vary. Fecal microbial transplants MAY or MAY NOT be the best way to re-establish - and sustain - a healthy gut micro biome after having it wiped out from medication. Talk to health care practitioners informed of and open to multiple medical system approaches more qualified than someone posting on a hiking forum and you'll get the same answer. Here's one example: What if the personal microbiome is already compromised as is so often the situation? Where is the, as you say, vastly complex personalized active probiotic containing fecal matter coming from? Is it that optimal to capsule consuming someone else's fecal matter?

Including probiotic and PRE biotic nourishing 'live' unprocessed real food not food like substances, fermented foods(GREAT source of probiotics!), and taking a high quality probiotic can all assist off trail and especially on trail.

[Dogwood]

Personally I'm using it(probiotics) to prevent mold in my old garage and barn and it really works, since two years now.
Next spring I'll apply it to my grapes to prevent mildew, we'll see how it works out.

I would NOT eat/drink it on a regular basis. Just a few single shots when you're in trouble should be enough.


That's interesting. I was unaware.

[Deadeye]

... Marketing has done this to people...

I'd call that a double-edged sword. "Marketing" sells a whole bunch of useless supplements, too.

[Dogwood]

I'd call that a double-edged sword. "Marketing" sells a whole bunch of useless supplements, too.

They are making America Great Ag..n...economically. Sorry, I gotta go. The mailman is here delivering dog medications that are of SOOO much use. ;)


Consider the detrimental decades long over prescribing and rampant over use of antibiotics as one of the major causal culprits of the greater interest in and need for microbiome health and understanding. "Here take this antibiotic script just in case" has been the "professional" lab coat wearing framed diploma toting western medical norm for decades. cha ching cha ching That's not even how or where most of the antibiotics are used in the U.S. It's in your livestock. It's known to be in public water supplies it's so rampant. Talk about marketing...?

[Deadeye]

Consider the detrimental decades long over prescribing and rampant over use of antibiotics as one of the major causal culprits of the greater interest in and need for microbiome health and understanding. "Here take this antibiotic script just in case" has been the "professional" lab coat wearing framed diploma toting western medical norm for decades. cha ching cha ching That's not even how or where most of the antibiotics are used in the U.S. It's in your livestock. It's known to be in public water supplies it's so rampant. Talk about marketing...?[/QUOTE]


I'm not disagreeing with you at all... I'm just not buying the other hype hook, line, and sinker, either.

[Traveler]

I used to eat as much live culture yogurt as possible, to fight off the bad bacteria in my stomach from drinking untreated water. I'm not sure if it helped or not. Does anyone have a probiotic story? (For or against) I'm debating bringing some along with regular multivitamins.

Possibly stating the obvious here, but have you considered filtering water to avoid the issue in the first place?

[zelph]

I was very reluctant against probiotics, especially as some esoteric people advertised it here back home.
Finally realized that my wife is using probiotic (different brand that I would not reconize without she telling me) for hausehold cleaning since years, with good success.
Then I happened to get to know a guy in person who is selling this stuff for use in hospitals as a profession, and he told me real life stories that were really amazing.
He says, this is the stuff he belives in and he's very lucky that after so many years of selling crap, basically cheating on people, he has this one product he belives in and has lots of proof that it works.

Personally I'm using it to prevent mold in my old garage and barn and it really works, since two years now.
Next spring I'll apply it to my grapes to prevent mildew, we'll see how it works out.

I would NOT eat/drink it on a regular basis. Just a few single shots when you're in trouble should be enough.
The way it works is, you provoke an "infection" by the good germs and barm that probiotic is, and those good germs are strong and reproduce quick while pushing aside (basically, eating all food from) the bad germs.

What is the name of the product?

[zelph]

Google Search
This might be related to what LEO L. posted about:

AbstractPURPOSE:Many hospital-acquired infections (HAIs) can be transmitted by pathogens contaminating hospital surfaces, not efficiently controlled by conventional sanitation, which can indeed contribute to the selection of MDR strains. Bacteriophages have been suggested as decontaminating agents, based on their selective ability to kill specific bacteria. However, there are no data on their stability in detergents and their potential use in routine sanitation. On the other hand, a probiotic-based sanitation system (Probiotic Cleaning Hygiene System, PCHS) was recently shown to stably reduce pathogens on treated surfaces. However, its action is not specific and slow, being based on competitive antagonism. This work aimed to assess the effectiveness of a combined use of phages and PCHS in removing HAI-associated pathogens from different hard surfaces.
MATERIALS AND METHODS:The decontamination ability of phages in PCHS was tested in vitro and in situ, against drug-susceptible or resistant Staphylococcus aureus, Escherichia coli, and Pseudomonas aeruginosa strains, and using bacterial densities similar to those detected on hospital surfaces.
RESULTS:Phages targeted efficiently all tested bacteria, maintaining their full activity when added to the PCHS detergent. Notably, the combined use of phages and PCHS not only resulted in a rapid reduction (up to >90%) of the targeted pathogens, but also, due to the stabilizing effect of probiotics, the pathogens were maintained at low levels (>99%) at later times too, when instead the effect of phages tends to diminish.
CONCLUSION:These results suggest that a combined biological system might be successfully used in hospital sanitation protocols, potentially leading to effective and safe elimination of MDR pathogens from the hospital environment.

[Leo L.]

What is the name of the product?
This is the one we are using in household:
https://www.multikraft.com/de/produkte-anwendungen/reinigung-raumklima/
Sorry, no English on this site.
And yes, your Google search results describe exactly what I'm speaking about.

The guy I mentioned above is selling a competitive product, which comes it two brands, one is for (professional) cleaning and sanitation, and the other one is for use on/in humans. The difference is in the solvent mainly.
One story, and the most impressive one, he was telling is, there was a teenager who acquired a resistant bug in hospital, which setteled in the lung and didn't respond to any treatment modern medicine could provide. The docs gave her up and she was ready to die.
The idea of the probiotics came up and they sprayed the room the girl was in twice a day with this substance. A few days later they could pull the tube and another two weeks later left the hospital for good.

Another story (and the one that geva me the idea to try probiotics on my moldy garage):
An old tract of a hospital was going to get closed down by the authorities due to mold. The hospitals tech people could not get clear of the mold, whatever they tried.
Finally my friend convinced them to give it one last try with his probiotic substance, he applied the stuff in the recommended way (I think it was spraying the rooms), the personnel continued for some more days to do so.
Several days later they called in the authorities to measure the rooms air quality again - and they could not measure any mold at all. Zero. They could not belive and measured again and again and came back with a different equipment - same result, zero or close to zero mold.

Just two weeks back we had a similar experience here in my house:
My house is an approx. 500yr old stone building, stuck in the earth with no real foundation. Only by having a wall heating we can live here quite a modern life.
We have several really old wooden furniture, which becomes moldy every summer (when the heating is not running). So to clean up the whole living area, including all furniture, during the last indian summer days is tedious, but mandatory.
Last year's cleaning, my wife applied this probiotic stuff to all the old furniture.
This year we didn't have to clean at all (well, not more than the usual vac), there was zero mold.

Then again, this is all rather technical use of probiotic, and while I can proof that it works for this purpose, its not exactly what the OP was asking for.
I cannot proof that probiotics could fight off all the typical stomach bugs, nor any other bugs you might acquire.
Yes, eating untreated yoghurt helps you if you've got stomach troubles (note: "help" not "cure").

[Dogwood]

Leo, these are products sounding very much as having antibiotic functions - antibiotics.

[Dogwood]

Preventable deaths abound...in U.S. hospitals. Gov't and industry accumulated stats of hospital acquired infections resulting in fatalities are up to over 80,000 annually. Add to that the preventable mistakes and it is number three as the U.S. cause of mortality. Shhh! Hushed up stats and perspectives tend to follow too big to fail economic business sectors.


Think about how "clean" we assume hospitals.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/health/hospital-acquired-infections/index.htm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahbinder/2013/09/23/stunning-news-on-preventable-deaths-in-hospitals/#76261cb14f69https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/09/hospital-acquired-infections.aspx

Get your stats and perspectives how you will but it doesn't change that hospital acquired infections are in part due to anti-biotic overuse.

[Leo L.]

DW, to my understanding, probiotics as described above is just the opposite of antibiotics.
Antibiotics would kill any germs no matter what. Germs traditionally are really great in mutating quickly and by this developing resistance against the given antibiotics.
So after having applied the classical antibiotics so many times, its highly likely that some germs would develope resistance. These single germs will spread like crazy because there is no competitive population of germs any more (remember, you just killed them all... well, all but some single ones).
Now you have an overpopulation of germs you can't kill without killing the host too.
BTW, the same is true with sanitation.

The way probiotics work is, you introduce a reasonable amount of good germs that are really robust that will spread over the host quick by this taking away the food and living space of the bad germs.
I'm well aware that all this might sound quite repellent to Americans, who are perfectly educated to "kill all germs" no matter what.

[T.S.Kobzol]

Thank you Leo for the voice of reason in the cacophony of opinions. [emoji106]


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[Dogwood]

Thx Leo. Yup, spoke too fast without reading deeply enough. :)

[Wise Old Owl]

I used to eat as much live culture yogurt as possible, to fight off the bad bacteria in my stomach from drinking untreated water. I'm not sure if it helped or not. Does anyone have a probiotic story? (For or against) I'm debating bringing some along with regular multivitamins.
Probiotics are live microorganisms intended to provide health benefits when consumed, generally by improving or restoring the gut flora. Probiotics are considered generally safe to consume, but may cause bacteria-host interactions and unwanted side effects in rare cases

After reading the definition- "this is the owl typing" my introduction to this, was (pause) "let's say difficult." A yogurt with a famous actress coining the virtues of dining on a small cup of rancid milk. That is what Yogurt is - rancid milk. Words matter lets call it what it is.


Poop transplants from healthy persons apparently have worked wonders for persons that had their own flora destroyed by antibiotics. After struggled with issues for years. Probiotics, etc not help. Yup its exactly what you might think

My understanding is that the healthy bacteria is harvested from baby poop. Cleaned up of course. Out of some frustration I have tried some of Probiotics not poop, as well as Beeno and other products touting healthy virtues... waste of money, time, and toilet paper.

[T.S.Kobzol]

What is the significance of putting an emphasis on calling yogurt rancid milk? Wondering...


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[Leo L.]

Well, yogurt definitely is not rancid milk.

But then, English seems to be great to produce snotty words for stuff other cultures like.
What we love as "Sauerkraut", Aussies call "rotten cabbage".

[rgarling]

What is the significance of putting an emphasis on calling yogurt rancid milk? Wondering...

He probably doesn't like yogurt. I wonder how he feels about rancid barley-malt?

[gracebowen]

I have milk and water kefir. When I remember to take it I know I'm getting live culture's because I swallow the kefir grains.

[Dogwood]

I used to eat as much live culture yogurt as possible, to fight off the bad bacteria in my stomach from drinking untreated water. I'm not sure if it helped or not. Does anyone have a probiotic story? (For or against) I'm debating bringing some along with regular multivitamins.
Getting back on topic. It certainly can help. In the context of your post yes probiotics are a part of the reason why I, and strongly believe others, have lower risk of contracting water born pathogens. It's not just luck or being born under a fortunate genetic star. Nutrition, metabolism, diet, lifestyle, general health, and health of the microbiome are correlated with the level of risk. They are relational. This has been stated here on WB several times previously. There may be other factors involved.

I see new breakthroughs occurring in the near future how the health of the microbiome and these other factors play a greater role in immunology, cognitve abilities, obesity, cancer, circulation, inflammation, pain management, digestion and assimilation, cardiovascular health, and aspects of physiology like endurance than currently understood. We'll gain a greater understanding how microbiome affects gene regulation/expression.

For your science(story) based reading:

https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2179

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4303825/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161123124256.htm

[T.S.Kobzol]

well my story is that I'm over 50 years old and I have basically never treated my water. I have a Sawyer gravity filter bag (unused), I have Katadyn pump filter (unused), I have a full bottle of aqua mira (unused) and I have a steripen that I used for 4 days on the Long Trail with my family before batteries ran out and then did not use it since. To my knowledge I never got giardia and I have been out backpacking since the age of 7. I eat yogurt, I drink Kefir, I drink Kombucha and I drink Lassi. I have one of these at least twice per week. So that's my anecdotal story. :-)


Getting back on topic. It certainly can help. In the context of your post yes probiotics are a part of the reason why I, and strongly believe others, have lower risk of contracting water born pathogens. It's not just luck or being born under a fortunate genetic star. Nutrition, metabolism, diet, lifestyle, general health, and health of the microbiome are correlated with the level of risk. They are relational. This has been stated here on WB several times previously. There may be other factors involved.

I see new breakthroughs occurring in the near future how the health of the microbiome and these other factors play a greater role in immunology, cognitve abilities, obesity, cancer, circulation, inflammation, pain management, digestion and assimilation, cardiovascular health, and aspects of physiology like endurance than currently understood. We'll gain a greater understanding how microbiome affects gene regulation/expression.

For your science(story) based reading:

https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2179

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4303825/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161123124256.htm

[zelph]

I'm going to begin drinking modified butter milk. Modified with a drop or two of vanilla extract.